Talk:List of states with limited recognition and Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution: Difference between pages

(Difference between pages)
Content deleted Content added
A death is not a statistic but the destruction of all humanity.
 
m Reverted edits by 216.237.245.242 (talk) to last version by Samwaltz
 
Line 1:
{{Infobox US Constitution}}
* [[/Archive 1|Archive 1, May 2004-April 2006]] - Discussions of criteria for inclusion, paticularly in relation to [[Abkhazia]], [[Sealand]], [[Northern Cyprus]] and [[Kosovo]]; please read before suggesting any changes in relation to these places.
[[Image: Bill_of_Rights_Pg1of1_AC.jpg|190px|thumb| The Bill of Rights in the [[National Archives and Records Administration|National Archives]]]]
 
'''Amendment IX''' (the '''Ninth Amendment''') to the [[United States Constitution]], which is part of the [[United States Bill of Rights|Bill of Rights]], addresses rights of the people that are not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.
== Puntland ==
 
==Text==
What about [[Puntland]]? It's ''de facto'' independent, although it does not lay claim to independence from Somalia. <span style="border: 1px solid #CC0000;">[[User:Osgoodelawyer|<font style="background: #CC0000" face="Times" color="#FFFFFF">'''&nbsp;O<small>Z</small>L<small>AWYER</small>&nbsp;'''</font>]][[User talk:Osgoodelawyer|<font style="background:#FFFFFF" face="Arial" color="#000000">'''&nbsp;talk&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span> 18:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 
{{cquote|The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.}}
==3RR==
I notice a couple of disputes on this page have both come very close to breaking the [[Three revert rule]] within the last few hours; please use the talk page constructively to discuss changes. --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 09:27, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
 
==Adoption==
==TRNC/Northern Cyprus==
When the US Constitution was sent to the states for ratification in 1787, [[Anti-Federalists]] argued that a Bill of Rights should be added. One argument of [[Federalism (United States)|Federalists]] against the addition of a Bill of Rights, during the debates about [[History of the United States Constitution|ratification of the Constitution]], was that a listing of rights could problematically enlarge the powers specified in [[Article One of the United States Constitution|Article One, Section 8]] of the new Constitution, by implication. For example, in [[The Federalist Papers|Federalist]] [http://www.constitution.org/fed/federa84.htm 84,] [[Alexander Hamilton]] asked, "why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do?" Likewise, James Madison explained to Thomas Jefferson as follows: "I conceive that in a certain degree ... the rights in question are reserved by the manner in which the federal powers are granted"<ref>James Madison, [http://www.constitution.org/jm/17881017_tj.htm Letter to Thomas Jefferson] (October 17, 1788). Madison often expressed this idea, for example in a [http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mjmtext:@field(DOCID+@lit(jm050127)) letter to George Washington]on December 5, 1789 ("If a line can be drawn between the powers granted and the rights retained, it would seem to be the same thing, whether the latter be secured by declaring that they shall not be abridged, or that the former shall not be extended").</ref> in [[Article One of the United States Constitution|Article One, Section 8]] of the Constitution.
Can we have a discussion of this dispute here please? At least give a full explanation for the reverts being made, rather than using talk boxes? Even if you feel the proposed changes are pov or deliberatly in bad faith - note I'm not saying that they are or not, its not an area I know about - at least give a rationale here; it makes a mockery of the talk page if you do not --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 15:27, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
The Anti-Federalists persisted in favor of a Bill of Rights during the ratification debates, and consequently several of the state ratification conventions provided their assent with a coda attached, requesting a Bill of Rights to be added. In 1788, the ratification by the Commonwealth of Virginia attempted to solve the problem that Hamilton and the Federalists had identified, by proposing a constitutional amendment specifying:<ref>[http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/const/ratva.htm Virginia Ratification Resolution] (June 26, 1788)</ref>
The dispute is whether we should mention:
 
{{quote|That those clauses which declare that Congress shall not exercise certain powers be not interpreted in any manner whatsoever to extend the powers of Congress. But that they may be construed either as making exceptions to the specified powers where this shall be the case, or otherwise as inserted merely for greater caution.}}
 
This proposal ultimately led to the Ninth Amendment. In 1789, while introducing to the [[United States House of Representatives|House of Representatives]] twelve draft Amendments, [[James Madison]] addressed what would become the 9th Amendment as follows:<ref>James Madison,[http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/bill_of_rightss11.html Speech Introducing Bill of Rights] (June 8, 1789)</ref>
 
{{quote|It has been objected also against a [[United States Bill of Rights|Bill of Rights]], that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration; and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the General Government, and were consequently insecure. This is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; but, I conceive, that it may be guarded against. I have attempted it, as gentlemen may see by turning to the last clause of the fourth resolution.}}
[[Image:Azerbaijan_map.gif|thumb|200px|right|The map of the [[Republic of Azerbaijan]] that includes it's [[exclave]] [[Nakhichevan]] (bottom left).]]
*'''[[Nakhichevan]]''' which is an [[exclave]] (ie. non-bordering province, NOT a country) of [[Azarbaijan]] (which has not recognised TRNC as a federal government), and is bordering [[Turkey]] (possibly threatened for its continuous sovereignity)! If we start including [[exclave]]s, [[province]]s, [[oblast]]s, [[perfecture]]s and [[municipalities]] to the list, then it's ok by me.
*'''[[Organization of the Islamic Conference]]''' which recognises only the ''Muslim Community'' of TRNC (as if anybody wouldn't); NOT the pseudo-state of TRNC. The source is within the official site, to which <s>[[Erdogan]]</s> (sorry) [[User:Erdogan Cevher]] was kind enough to provide us ([http://www.oic-oci.org/ OIC]), but it is not linkable. Evidently in every conference, there's a list of members (that excludes TRNC) and a separete heading (titled ''Muslim Communities''), that includes ''Muslim Community of Kibris'' (Cyprus). Also, please [[WP:BEANS|check]] the members-list in the WP article.
*'''Turkish Peace Action''' in the wording to replace '''Turkish invasion'''. Had it been a "peace action", Turkey would have taken the [[Nobel]] Peace prize, instead of international non-recognition.
 
Like Hamilton, Madison was concerned that enumerating various rights could "enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution". Id. Here is the draft of the Ninth Amendment that Madison submitted to Congress in order to solve this problem:
:That's about it. Any comments? [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 17:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
{{quote|The exceptions here or elsewhere in the constitution, made in favor of particular rights, shall not be so construed as to diminish the just importance of other rights retained by the people; or as to enlarge the powers delegated by the constitution; but either as actual limitations of such powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution. Id.}}
[[Image:CypriusTurksr17.jpg|thumb|200px|right|The Greek Cypriots are destructing the houses of Turkish Cypriots before 1974. Rf: "Bilim Arastirma Org."]]
[[Image:CypriusTurksr22.jpg|thumb|200px|right|More than 100000 Turkish Cypriots killed by Greek Cypriots before 1974. Rf: "Bilim Arastirma Org."]]
[[Image:CypriusTurks036.jpg|thumb|200px|right|Greek Cypriots even killed babies, women, and the old to whom they can only fight. In 1974's Turkish Peace Action, Greek Cypriots did not fight like a man and escaped from war field almost without showing no resistance. Rf: "Bilim Arastirma Org."]]
* The Above is wrong: Reference: "Alithia" Newspaper of Greek Cypriots, 16/17 May 2006 (Author: Andreas Fantis, Title of the article: "Is there any hope about the solution of Cyprius Issue"). Andreas Wrote:
 
This was an intermediate form of the Ninth Amendment that borrowed language from the Virginia proposal, while foreshadowing the final version. Like Madison's draft, the final text of the Ninth Amendment speaks of other rights than those enumerated in the Constitution. The character of those other rights was indicated by Madison in his speech introducing the Bill of Rights (emphasis added):
Turkish Cypriot State was honorized by the decision of the last meeting of OIC and will participate the meetings of OIC not with the title "Muslim Community of Cyprus" but with the title "Turkish Cypriot State" from now on.
 
{{quote|It has been said, by way of objection to a bill of rights....that in the Federal Government they are unnecessary, because the powers are enumerated, and it follows, that all that are not granted by the constitution are retained; that the constitution is a bill of powers, <strong>the great residuum being the rights of the people</strong>; and, therefore, a bill of rights cannot be so necessary as if the residuum was thrown into the hands of the Government. I admit that these arguments are not entirely without foundation, but they are not as conclusive to the extent it has been proposed. It is true the powers of the general government are circumscribed; they are directed to particular objects; but even if government keeps within those limits, it has certain discretionary powers with respect to the means, which may admit of abuse. Id.}}
NikoSilver, please read newspapers of your own country. Also, use your real name and surname.
Don't hesitate doing this. Stay behind your ideas (even if yours are false). {{Unsigned|Erdogan Cevher}}
 
For the Founders, "rights" (against the actions of government) were always complementary to delegated powers of government, partitioning the space of public action. Each delimits its complement. Every constitutional "right" (or "immunity" to use [[Privileges and Immunities Clause|a term in Article Four of the Constitution]]) delimits its opposing power, and every delegated power delimits its opposing right.
:The fact that people were being killed by Greeks does not stop it being an invasion; as noted before, [[D-Day]] was an invasion; the US/Brits invaded Iraq, rightly or wrongly, even if it was to stop Saddam's killing, even if it was for oil, or revenge, or whatever; its still an invasion. [[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 15:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
 
The First through Eighth Amendments address the means by which the federal government exercises its enumerated powers, while the Ninth Amendment addresses a "great residuum" of rights that have not been "thrown into the hands of the government." The Ninth Amendment became part of the Constitution on December 15, 1791 upon ratification by three-fourths of the states.
 
==Interpretation==
:Peace action does seem a very odd word for an invasion... even if you're looking from a Turkish pov. OIC seems a [[civil society]] body (though your WP:BEANS link confuses me somewhat). And as for exclaves - well we've not included them up to now so unless it makes claims to countryhood, again, I'd be inclined to agree (though this is all without knowing or going into the situation in detail, so don't take my view as too comprehensive). --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 19:39, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
The Ninth Amendment has generally been regarded by the courts as negating any expansion of governmental power on account of the enumeration of rights in the Constitution, but the Amendment has not been regarded as further limiting governmental power. The U.S. Supreme Court explained this, in ''[[United Public Workers v. Mitchell]]'' {{ussc|330|75|1947}}:
::Ha ha! The [[WP:BEANS]] has to do with someone inserting some kind of information is some article... Sorry for thinking that the above was self-explanatory and not getting in the trouble to discuss... [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 20:16, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
{{quote|If granted power is found, necessarily the objection of invasion of those rights, reserved by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, must fail.}}
:::Yeah...what he said. ;) <span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype">[[User:Khoikhoi|<font color="">'''Khoikhoi'''</font>]]</span> 20:30, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
 
Some jurists have asserted that the Ninth Amendment is relevant to interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. Justice Arthur Goldberg (joined by Chief Justice Warren and Justice Brennan) expressed this view in a concurring opinion in the case of ''[[Griswold v. Connecticut]]'' (1965):
*{{flagicon|Northern Cyprus}} The '''[[Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus]]''' was set up in northern [[Cyprus]] after the Turkish Peace Action on Cyprus in [[1974]] due to a local Greek Cypriot coup d'etat to overthrow the government and to unify the island with [[Greece]]. It was proclaimed the ''Turkish Federated State of Cyprus'' in [[1975]]. This state later declared independence under the current name in [[1983]]. It is recognized by [[Turkey]], and the [[Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic]]. TRNC was accepted as "Turkish Cypriot State" by the Organization of Islamic Conference. TRNC and Republic of Cyprus are on the threshold of being separated like Checkoslovakia = Check Rep + Slovak Rep after the rejection of United nation's Annan Plan by Greek Cypriots. Note: Annan plan aimed at reunification of island.
 
{{quote|[T]he Framers did not intend that the first eight amendments be construed to exhaust the basic and fundamental rights.... I do not mean to imply that the .... Ninth Amendment constitutes an independent source of rights protected from infringement by either the States or the Federal Government....While the Ninth Amendment - and indeed the entire Bill of Rights - originally concerned restrictions upon federal power, the subsequently enacted Fourteenth Amendment prohibits the States as well from abridging fundamental personal liberties. And, the Ninth Amendment, in indicating that not all such liberties are specifically mentioned in the first eight amendments, is surely relevant in showing the existence of other fundamental personal rights, now protected from state, as well as federal, infringement.}}
 
Subsequent to ''Griswold'', some judges have tried to use the Ninth Amendment to justify judicially enforcing rights that are not enumerated. For example, the District Court that heard the case of ''[[Roe v. Wade]]'' ruled that the Ninth Amendment protected a limited right to abortion.<ref>[http://hometown.aol.com/abtrbng/roedist.htm Roe v. Wade], 314 F. Supp. 1217 (1970).</ref> However, Justice William O. Douglas rejected that view; Douglas wrote that, "The Ninth Amendment obviously does not create federally enforceable rights." See ''[[Doe v. Bolton]]'' (1973).
"Turkish Cypriot State" by the OIC.(Ref:Web of OIC: http://www.oic-oci.org/), click “About OIC”, then click “Observers” to see that TRNC is under the “States” heading with name “T. Cypriot State"
2. Nakhichevan recognizes TRNC. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhichevan under the “Disputes” heading.
 
The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals stated as follows in ''[[Gibson v. Matthews]]'', 926 F.2d 532, 537 (6th Cir. 1991):
The issue of Peace Action / Invasion?
How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks before 1974? Answer: Thousands of Turkish Cypriots (more than 100000) and hundreds of Greek Cypriots before 1974. (That is why the population of Greeks in the island well exceeds that of Turks in the island)
 
{{quote|[T]he ninth amendment does not confer substantive rights in addition to those conferred by other portions of our governing law. The ninth amendment was added to the Bill of Rights to ensure that the maxim [[Statutory interpretation#Canons of Statutory Interpretation|expressio unius est exclusio alterius]] would not be used at a later time to deny fundamental rights merely because they were not specifically enumerated in the Constitution.}}
How many Turkish Cypriots killed by Greeks and Greek Cypriots killed by Turks after 1974?
Answer: Total number does not exceed 5 from both sides.
 
Professor Laurence Tribe shares this view: "It is a common error, but an error nonetheless, to talk of 'ninth amendment rights.' The ninth amendment is not a source of rights as such; it is simply a rule about how to read the Constitution."<ref>Laurence H. Tribe, ''American Constitutional Law'' 776 n. 14 (2nd ed. 1998).</ref> Likewise, Justice Antonin Scalia has expressed the same view, in ''[[Troxel v. Granville]]'' (2000):
Then, How a man having brain can claim that Turkish action is an invasion? That action is certainly a peace action and stopped deaths from both sides.
 
{{quote|The Declaration of Independence...is not a legal prescription conferring powers upon the courts; and the Constitution’s refusal to 'deny or disparage' other rights is far removed from affirming any one of them, and even farther removed from authorizing judges to identify what they might be, and to enforce the judges’ list against laws duly enacted by the people.}}
{{Unsigned|Erdogan Cevher}}
 
In the year 2000, the Harvard historian [[Bernard Bailyn]] gave a speech at the White House on the subject of the Ninth Amendment. He stated that the rights referred to in the Ninth Amendment are rights that may be "enacted into law." Here is how Dr. Bailyn interpreted the Ninth Amendment:<ref>Bernard Bailyn, [http://clinton2.nara.gov/Initiatives/Millennium/bbailyn.html Remarks at White House Millennium Evening] (2000).</ref>
 
{{quote|When the federal Constitution was written the wisest minds in America decided that there should be no national Bill of Rights, not merely because most of the state constitutions already contained some such protections, but, as Madison (who would later write the federal Bill of Rights) said, 'There is a great reason to fear that a positive declaration of some of the most essential rights could not be obtained in the requisite latitude.' In other words, the enumeration of rights by the federal government, the mere listing of them and defining them, would necessarily limit their scope. 'The rights of conscience in particular [he said], if submitted to public definition, would be narrowed more than they are likely ever to be by an assumed power.' The right solution, he and others then felt, was what is implied in the present 9th Amendment: that, in addition to the rights specified by the states, there is a universe of rights, possessed by the people latent rights, still to be evoked and enacted into law.
:Thank you for your input. Your complains can be addressed to [[Kofi Annan]]. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 13:57, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 
But was this workable? In any given situation, someone would have to decide whether the rights that were claimed were valid, and that would leave the existence of rights to the mercy of personal and political opinion, and no one would be safe. Some rights a core body of rights protected against the powers of the federal government would have to be specified, and the residue somehow protected in general terms. This is the compromise that we have inherited from them and that we live with, and struggle with, and benefit from, every day of our lives: in the first eight amendments of the Constitution, a carefully worded list of specific rights protected from encroachment by the federal government, together with the belief that there are not only rights protected by the states but a reservoir of other, unenumerated rights that the people retain, which in time may be enacted into law.}}
 
It is important, when discussing the history of the Bill of Rights, to note that the Supreme Court held in ''[[Barron v. Baltimore]]'' (1833) that it was enforceable by the federal courts only against the federal government, and not against the states. However, in 1868, the [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fourteenth Amendment]] was adopted, in large part to overturn that precedent, and the Supreme Court has used that Amendment, together with enabling congressional legislation, to apply some, but not all, provisions of the Bill of Rights against the states through what is called [[selective incorporation]], thereby enabling a citizen to sue the citizen's own state in federal court (see [[sovereign immunity]]). Since 1938, when the Supreme Court wrote its famous [[footnote four]], the proper application of the Bill of Rights has been an increasingly contentious issue.
:Interstingly Nachkivan did reciognise North Cypriot sovereignty [http://www.columbusguides.com/country/country_guide.ehtml?o=71&NAV_guide_class=CountryGuide&NAV_Region=71&NAV_SubRegion=]; now whether it has the right to do so or not is highly debatable under international law as only other sovereigns are allowed to recgonise sovereignty; but these rules are not set in stone of course. I feel that this might be worth a mention. The OIC is a civil society actor with even less right to recognise sovereignty; this one is more disputable I think, especially as some appear to claim that it is the people who are represented here, not really a state.
 
[[Robert Bork]], sometimes styled an "[[originalism|originalist]]", has likened the Ninth Amendment to an inkblot. Bork argued in ''The Tempting of America'' that, while the amendment clearly had some meaning, its meaning is indeterminate; because the language is opaque, its meaning is as irretrievable as it would be had the words been covered by an inkblot. According to Bork, if another provision of the Constitution were covered by an actual inkblot, judges should not be permitted to make up what might be under the inkblot lest any judges twist the meaning to their own ends (cf. [[underdeterminacy]]).
*An invasion is an invasion whatever its purpose. Peace action is a modern euphamisim – we didn’t have a [[D day|Peace action]] did we?
 
[[originalism|Originalist]] [[Randy Barnett#Ninth Amendment|Randy Barnett has argued]] that the Ninth Amendment requires what he calls a [[presumption of liberty]]. Other originalists, such as Thomas B. McAffee, have argued that the Ninth Amendment protects the unenumerated "residuum" of rights which the federal government was never empowered to violate.<ref>Thomas B. McAffee, [http://www.stephankinsella.com/texts/mcaffee_federalism_ninth.pdf Federalism and the Protection of Rights: The Modern Ninth Amendment's Spreading Confusion], 1996 B.Y.U. Law Rev. 351</ref> Constitutional historian [[Jon Roland]] has argued,<ref>Jon Roland, [http://www.constitution.org/9ll/schol/pnur.htm Presumption of Nonauthority and Unenumerated Rights] (2006)</ref> that the Ninth Amendment included by reference all of the rights proposed by the state ratifying conventions, in addition to those enumerated in the first eight amendments.
*I think talk about coup d’etats etc. is a bit over the top and uncalled for here; let the TRNC page deal with that itself.
 
[[Gun politics|Gun rights]] activists in recent decades have sometimes argued for a fundamental natural right to keep and bear arms that both predates the U.S. Constitution and is covered by the Constitution's Ninth Amendment; according to this viewpoint, the [[Second Amendment to the United States Constitution|Second Amendment]] protects only a pre-existing right to keep and bear arms.<ref>Nicholas Johnson, [http://www.guncite.com/journals/nj9th.html ''Beyond the Second Amendment: An Individual Right to Arms Viewed Through The Ninth Amendment''], 24 Rutgers L.J. 1, 64-67 (1992)</ref> In the related case of ''[[United States v. Lopez]]'', 514 U.S. 549 (1995), the Supreme Court held that while Congress has broad lawmaking authority under the Commerce Clause, it is not unlimited, and does not apply to something as far from commerce as carrying handguns.
*Not quite sure about the Czech Republic analogy… this is opinion this bit.
 
The Ninth Amendment bars denial of unenumerated rights if the denial is based on the ''enumeration of certain rights'' in the Constitution, but does not bar denial of unenumerated rights if the denial is based on the ''enumeration of certain powers'' in the Constitution. It is to that enumeration of powers that the courts have said we must look, in order to determine the extent of the unenumerated rights mentioned in the Ninth Amendment.<ref>[http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=330&page=75 ''United Public Workers v. Mitchell'', 330 U.S. 75 (1947)]</ref>
So how about:
 
==Footnotes==
::{{flagicon|Northern Cyprus}} The '''[[Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus]]''' was set up in northern [[Cyprus]] after the Turkish invasion on Cyprus in [[1974]]. It was proclaimed the ''Turkish Federated State of Cyprus'' in [[1975]] and declared independence in [[1983]]. It is recognised only by [[Turkey]], though the non-sovereign [[Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic]] has also recognised it. UN proposals to unify the two Cypriot states have since been unsuccessful.ط
<references />
 
==External links==
* [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=953008 A Textual-Historical Theory of the Ninth Amendment] by Kurt Lash (2007)
* [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=789384 The Ninth Amendment: It Means What It Says] by [[Randy Barnett]] (2006)
* [http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/amdt9toc_user.html CRS Annotated Constitution: 9th Amendment] by the [[Congressional Research Service]] (2000)
* [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=613621 The Lost Original Meaning of the Ninth Amendment] by Kurt Lash (2004)
* [http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=615701 The Lost Jurisprudence of the Ninth Amendment] by Kurt Lash (2005)
* [http://freemarketnews.com/Analysis/117/3116/2005-12-07a.asp?wid=117&nid=3116 Rights, the Constitution, and the Ninth Amendment] by [[Tibor R. Machan]] (2005)
* [http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/bill_of_rightss11.html Proposed Amendments to the Constitution] by [[James Madison]] (1789)
* [http://www.stephankinsella.com/texts/mcaffee_federalism_ninth.pdf Federalism and the Protection of Rights: The Modern Ninth Amendment’s Spreading Confusion] by Thomas B. McAfee (1996)
* [http://www.constitution.org/dhbr.htm Documentary History of the Bill of Rights] -- Compilation of documents
 
{{US Constitution}}
[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 14:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 
[[Category:1791 in law]]
:Thanks Rob for your kind attempt for a compromise in this. Though not necessarily disagreeable, I think that:
[[Category:Amendments to the United States Constitution|09]]
:* Nakhichevan is legally a province or something analogous.
:* OIC we agree (thanks)
:* UN mentioning is ok by me, --added.
:I strongly believe that extensive analyses are not applicable in this "'''''List''' of...''" and strongly suggest that further details are covered in the respective articles (which is [[Turkish_Republic_of_Northern_Cyprus#International_status|already true]]).
:Fmore, keep in mind that there is only one user doing these reverts lately, who turns out to be a [[WP:AN3#User:Erdogan Cevher 3|revert addict]]. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 14:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 
[[de:9. Zusatzartikel zur Verfassung der Vereinigten Staaten]]
:Agreed entirely; the TRNC entry was preivously much shorter than the others anyway and I don't see a need to add more than we have now; it can be tempting sometimes to ignore the contributions of those who refuse to play ball with the wikipedia process but a couple of interesting points were raised, even if it was from a pov manner. --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 23:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 
::Thank you. To add to your point, if we start elaborating the Turkish POV (on [[exclaves]], [[civil society]] orgs, ''Turkish Peace action'' etc etc), then under [[WP:NPOV#Undue weight]], imagine what the emphasis/size of the Greek POV and the International POV should be. After that, we'll need to rename the article to [[[[Turkish invasion of Cyprus]] and tiny details about unrecognized countries]]... [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 23:58, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
:::And btw, I agree to [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_unrecognized_countries&diff=next&oldid=52972528 this change] of yours too. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 16:37, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I just saw that there were three more attempted reverts by [[User:Erdogan Cevher]], despite the talk, despite the sources, despite the agreement of the other editors and after 3 or 4 blocks for [[WP:3RR]]. I don't know if the rest of the editors agree, but I think that this behaviour has crossed the border of [[WP:POINT]]. Waiting for your comments and possible action. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 15:48, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 
:I seriously considered obtaining a [[Wikipedia:RfC]] on his behaviour; I thought I'd let him get himself banned for antoher 3rr first, however, in the hope that an extended ban might show him how to edit / put him off the topic. In the event of an extended period of 2 reverts a day, then I think we could go further with this. --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 21:40, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 
this info is not reliable
::Ok. Just check also [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cyprus&diff=53281623&oldid=53216707 this] in the intro par of [[Cyprus]]... [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 22:24, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 
:::FYI, I've reported Erdogan for 3RR again - that'll be the fourth 3RR block for him within 5 days. Guess they'll make it a longer one this time. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::::Wanna bet a beer he's gonna do it again? [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, weren't you the guy who recently complained you didn't get to perform enough justified reverts? ;-) [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 09:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Ha ha! Everybody needs his dose here I guess! Oh, and we have a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cyprus&diff=prev&oldid=53460998 second attempt] in [[Cyprus]] in case [[User:Robdurbar|someone]] is collecting evidence for that [[WP:POINT]] vio. <s>And how about that name [[Erdogan]]?</s> [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">K<span style="background:#999">a<span style="background:#aaa">r<span style="background:#bbb">a<span style="background:#ccc">m</span>a</span>n</span>l</span>is</span>!</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 09:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::Eh, let's be fair to the guy - "Erdoğan" is just very common in Turkish, both as a first and a family name. Let's not make fun of that, it may very well be his real name. And I'm not quite getting what you mean by WP:POINT? He's just edit-warring, that's a different kind of thing, isn't it? [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 19:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::Sorry, I don't know that many Turks to have encountered the name before. I always thought it was a surname and it seemed to me like it wanted to sound more like the PM of Turkey. Point stricken.
::::::::Now for the other thing: He's not just edit warring. We have invited him repeatedly in the talk, but appart from the somewhat irrelevant comment above, we have received no further response to what 4 editors here (and a couple more outside the talk) seem to consider logical and obvious. We only communicate through edit-summaries, where we reply that OIC is a civil society org, and that Nakhicevan is a province, and that ''peace action'' (!!!) is peculiar wording for invasion, but he responds with the same irrelevant argumentation. He further expanded his POV to [[Cyprus]]. What can we do after 3-4 3rr blocks he's already had? I am sure there will be more, and that there won't be any comment whatsoever here, because the thing is so obvious (even for blind or uninformed) that at first I and the other counter-reverters didn't even want to discuss it formally. I don't know how you call this, but I definitely think it is ''disruption of WP''. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 23:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::: Ah, no doubt that the blind edit warring is disruptive, absolutely. After all, that's why we're getting him blocked all the time. But [[WP:POINT]] is really about something else in my understanding, it's about subtle ways of disrupting by doing something you don't really mean, like AfD'ing good articles in order to demonstrate how other people's AfD criteria are wrong, that kind of thing. [[User:Future Perfect at Sunrise|Fut.Perf.]] [[User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise|☼]] 06:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::::::Ok Mr."Syntax Error", maybe you're right. Let's see where that goes...[[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#777">&nbsp;<span style="background:#888">N<span style="background:#999">i<span style="background:#aaa">k<span style="background:#bbb">o<span style="background:#ccc"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 11:23, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 
== State of Palestine ==
 
What is the official status of Gaza strip after the [[Israel's unilateral disengagement plan|withdrawal of Israel]] in 2005?
 
:I believe that the both the PNA and the UN take the official position that Gaza is still under Israeli occupation. (Israel controlls the water supply, airspace, and territorial waters, for instance). The West Bank and Gaza aren't universally recognized as being under anybody's legal sovereignty. I'm pretty sure that Egypt never officially annexed Gaza, and nobody but Britain recognized Jordan's claims to the West Bank (which Jordan has now renounced anyway).
 
:As somone said above, lists aren't places of in-depth analyses, but I do think the Palestinian issue needs a bit more of an in-depth treatment here. The "State of Palestine" declared in 1988 was in essence a "government in exile", as all of the territory it claimed was under Israeli control (and much of it under UN-recongized Israeli sovereignty) at the time. My understanding was the that PLO assumed the role of this government in exile at this point. The Palestinian National Authority was set up in 1994 to administer areas that have varied in scope after the Oslo Accords. The PNA was clearly intended to be an embryonic Palestinian state, but as we all know the agreements that would have been necessary to bring that state to term never happened. Instead, the PNA started acting more and more like a state (it has elections, government ministries, issues passports, accredits ambassadors) but never declared itself to be such. I ''think'' that there is a distinction between the Palestinian National Authority on the one hand and the PLO and the notional "State of Palestine" on the other. Up until this year, this distinction was largely theoretical, as the same people were running both entities, but it became less so when Hamas, which I believe is not part of the PLO, won the legislative elections there.
 
:Anyway, the whole thing's a mess, and I'm not sure of all the details. Still, the current blurb doesn't even explain the situation on the grown in Gaza or the WB, which I know is a contentious subject, but still. How about the following?
 
*{{flagicon|Palestine}} The '''[[State of Palestine]]''' was declared in [[1988]] and recognized by a series of [[Arab]] and [[Muslim]] countries. Since 1994, the '''[[Palestinian National Authority]]''' has provided government some services to and exercized military control of parts of the [[West Bank]] and [[Gaza Strip]], though it has not declared itself to be the government of an independent state. (See also [[proposals for a Palestinian state]], [[Palestinian territories]], [[Gaza Strip]], [[West Bank]], and [[Israel]] all of which include articles about areas in the [[Palestine (region)|Palestine]] region.)
 
--[[User:Jfruh|Jfruh]] ([[User talk:Jfruh|talk]]) 14:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 
:Sounds about right. --[[User:Robdurbar|Robdurbar]] 23:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
 
== [[WP:POINT|Messing with the system]] ==
 
This talk-page has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AList_of_unrecognized_countries&diff=58724941&oldid=57789329 vandalised] in order to justify an [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_unrecognized_countries&diff=58724723&oldid=58491083 allegged consented version] of the article! A relevant note has been posted at [[WP:ANI#List of unrecognised countries]] for further investigation. [[User:NikoSilver|<span style="color:white;background:#778">&nbsp;<span style="background:#889">N<span style="background:#99a">i<span style="background:#aab">k<span style="background:#bbc">o<span style="background:#ccd"><b>S</b></span><b>il</b></span><b>v</b></span><b>e</b></span><b>r</b></span>&nbsp;</span>]] <sup><font size="-2">[[User talk:NikoSilver|(T)]] [[Special:Emailuser/NikoSilver|@]] [[Special:Contributions/NikoSilver|(C)]]</font></sup> 10:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)