Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language and Talk:Wayne Brady: Difference between pages

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'''See also [[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language/FAQs]] for answers to frequently asked language and usage questions.'''<!--Note to archivers: please do not move this section. -->

==Group?==

Wayne Brady did not fire at the entire group of people. He pulled up in the car, saw the drug dealer, and shouted,"break yo-self foo!", then unloaded only on the drug dealer.

[[User:Only the young|Only the young]] 01:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

==Riverside==

= April 9 =

Is Wayne Brady from Riverside? I also heard he might be a UC Riverside Alumni. --[[User:Evisruc|Evisruc]] 09:16, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

No, he was definitely born in Orlando. Dunno anything about whether he went to UC Riverside though I've never heard anything about it. I'm a UCR alumnus. Go Highlanders!!! -[[User:Wikitoddia|Wikitoddia]] 18:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

== Oulala? Olala?? ==

I'm looking for information about the expression "oulala," often stereotypically associated with the French in US culture. Is this phrase actually Frech? A teacher of French told my class that in France they say "olala," and that "oulala" is Cajun. However, I haven't been able to find any information verifying these claimes. [[User:Theshibboleth|Theshibboleth]] 01:07, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

:The French ''oh là là'' (literally 'oh there there' - 'oh my my' would probably be a good equivalent)is pronounced /olala/ in French. But most English seem to say /ulala/. (They're probably not trying to duplicate correct French when they say it.) [[User:Peter Grey|Peter Grey]] 02:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

:You could try bothering [[User:Firespeaker]]. Cajun and Acadien are areas he is particularly interested in. [[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:26, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::Not much help but I have normally seen it written (in English) as "ooh la la." --[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 15:32, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

== Phoneme how to pronounce ==

==New Movie==

I noticed that I couldn't pronounce the word Phoneme although there was a great amount of information here. Would it be possible to include pronunciation in the future? Thanks in advance. --[[User:69.152.115.145|69.152.115.145]] 02:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I saw a preview for a movie coming out starring Wayne Brady. It's about street basketball, and he plays a guy who oversees it all...but I cant think of the title

:phoneme /'founi:m/ [[User:Peter Grey|Peter Grey]] 02:52, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

--[[User:151.201.58.5|151.201.58.5]] 02:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

== How to speak "Rennaisance Faire" English? ==

==Bryant Gumbel==

What websites can I go to, to learn how to use the The's, thou's, would'st.

''Curiously, neither Chappelle nor Mooney has offered any apology to Bryant Gumbel.'' Was he looking for an apology? I would imagine that he's numb to ridicule since it happens SO OFTEN. <b><font color=#000080 face=times new roman>[[User:Donmega60645|Don]]</FONT><FONT COLOR=#0000CD face=verdana>^MEGA<font color=green>60645</font></sup></font><FONT COLOR=#000080 FACE=TIMES NEW ROMAN>^{[[User_Talk:Donmega60645|<b>Talk</b>]]}</font>|<font face=verdana size=1><b>[[Special:Contributions/Donmega60645|Contribs]]</font></b> 16:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Common names for items and professions?

thanks

== Training ==

:I'm not sure about a website, and I haven't gone looking, but I'd like to suggest reading something like Sir Richard Burton's translation of the 1001 nights, or anything else by Sir Richard Burton, or something classy of a similar vintage. The late 19th century certainly wasn't the rennaisance, but those archaic terms were still in use, at least by this author, but much of the rest of the language is similar enough to our current english to be easily picked up by the uninitiated. -[[User:LambaJan|LambaJan]] 01:59, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know about Wayne Brady's Improv background before Whose Line? All of the other performers have Second City, Theatre Sports, Comedy Sports, etc. Anyone know what is training was that allowed him a chance to get a spot as a regular performer on an improv game based show?--[[User:Twintone|Twintone]] 22:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

He started at SAK Comedy Lab, an improv theater in Orlando, FL. He went through at least a year or so of trainig in what SAK calls SAK University. He still makes guest appearences their and atributes SAK as his place of training. (Don't think I'm biased just because of my user name, if you don't believe me reshearch it.) [[User:Saksjn|Saksjn]] 13:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)Saksjn[[User:Saksjn|Saksjn]] 13:37, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

: Why not just read some Shakespeare? (BTW, pet peeve: The "ye" in "ye olde whatever" is pronounced "the". The "y" is a thorn character, not a "y". So it's not "ye" as in "you" but just a typographical variant of "the"). --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 04:23, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

== Mandy Taketa is Chinese? Are you sure? ==

:Is "ye" pronounced "thee" or "thuh"? -- '''[[User:Slumgum|Slumgum]]''' | [[User_talk:Slumgum|yap]] | [[Special:Contributions/Slumgum|stalk]] | 20:43, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Taketa is definitely not a Chinese surname. I suspect it may be Japanese. --[[User:Ling.Nut|Ling.Nut]] 17:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

:There is a difference here between "Renaissance Faire English" and the actual English spoken at the time. Essentially, you want to only use words people understand, so many of the obsolete words must not be used, as nobody would have a clue as to what you were saying. So, speaking straight Shakespeare is not a good idea. I'd go with the first suggestion, instead. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:[http://www.tv.com/wayne-brady/person/3078/trivia.html TV.com]: "Wayne's wife Mandie is from Hawaii, but is not Hawaiian; she is Japanese and Caucasian."

==Son?==

:The style of English you generally seem to be after is [[Early Modern English]]. [[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Is there any proof of Brady having a fifteen year old son? If so, what's the story on that? Source, anyone? [[User:Yllosubmarine|Maria]] 14:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

== trout in the milk ==

:I've removed it. No other biography I've seen mentions that he has a son. I suspect it may be an inside joke or insult relating to a young man who resembles Wayne Brady. -[[User:Anþony|Anþony]] 06:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

== How I Met Your Mother ==

I know it's a quote-but context please.What trout and what milk?([[User:Hotclaws**==|hotclaws**==]] 07:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC))

:The full quote is: "Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk." (Thoreau). The meaning is that though circumstantial evidence is not deductive, it can be of a immediate and obvious flag raising nature. Finding a trout in milk would be very bizarre and disconcerting, yes? So finding a trout in milk is something that should immediately raise flags of something not being right, even if you can't ''pinpoint'' the exact manner that situation arose. Or to answer your question literally--an everyday trout in everyday milk. --'''[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 15:28, 9 April 2006 (UTC)'''

::It's more specific than that. The statement about finding a trout in the milk relates to the specific allegation that a merchant has been "watering down" the milk: diluting it with water and yet selling it as whole milk, as a means to defraud their customers. Thus the "trout" is circumstantial yet strong evidence that someone's been adding (river) water to the milk (the trout having been added unwittingly and apparently unnoticed along with the water.) - [[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]] 21:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The summary is not correct-needs to be changed.

== devanagari ==

could some one give me the following words in devanagari : dukkha - anicca - anatta

[[User:Hhnnrr|Hhnnrr]] 16:42, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

:दुक्ख - अनिच्च - अनत्त is my guess, unless you left some diacritics out of the transliterations above. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 18:02, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

::You've correctly transliterated from what was given, but the words in latin script above aren't as carefully transliterated as you have done, so what you've given aren't words unfortunately. - [[User:Taxman|Taxman]] ^{<small>[[User talk:Taxman|Talk]]</small>} 15:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

दुःख - अनिच्छा - Can't guess the third word! Can you please give the context

in which it occurs? Vineet Chaitanya

:Those seem the most plausable to me, and my guess for Hindi for the third one is अनत an adv. meaning Somewhere else, elsewhere, or अनट a noun meaning injustice, grievous oppression, etc. Also possibly अनाथ adj. Without lord, protector, husband, master or owner; husbandless, protectorless, fatherless; poor, helpless, forlorn;. A friendless or a destitute person; widow; orphan. Definitions are from [http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/platts/ Platts] which is old, but gives you the idea. There are some Sanskrit possiblities, but none that give a doubled t either. Perhaps the double t is used for the retroflex t, which is the second one I gave. - [[User:Taxman|Taxman]] ^{<small>[[User talk:Taxman|Talk]]</small>} 15:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you all for your help .. the transliterations I've written are all from wikipedia . I am unaware of the correct transliterations since I dont speak the original language . I will repeat them here with the context they came in to make things more clear . ( I've added quite a few also :-) ) All the words are related somehow to Buddhism . Please help if you can :

'''The eightfold path''' : Samma Dithi - Samma Sankappa - Samma Vaca - Samma Kammanta - Samma Ajiva - Samma Vayama - Samma Samudhi - samma samadhi

'''Three marks of existence''' : Dukkha - Anicca - Anatta

'''Mahayana concepts''' : Tathata - Sunita

'''Theravada canon''' ( three baskets ) : Sutra Patika - Vinaya - Abhidhamma

'''Non-canonical texts''' : Visuddhimagga - Awakening of Mahayana Faith - Platform sutra - terma

'''Places in India''' : Rajagaha - Vesali - Pataliputta

'''Buddhist school''' : Mahasanghika

'''Indian king''' : Asuka

[[User:Hhnnrr|Hhnnrr]] 20:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh! So these are not Hindi or Sanskrit words but are Pali words!

dukkh=दुक्ख [दुःख], anicca=अनिच्च [अनित्य], anatta=अनत्त [अनात्म]

I have put the Sanskrit equivalents in the square brackets.

Vineet Chaitanya

Thank you, I guess they are . But I was told before that there is no such thing as a sanskrit script , there was only devanagari . So whenever I needed "sanakrit" I would ask for "devanagari" . Thats why I didnt say Bali, a did'nt know you could give me the sanskrit equivelant . Thanks for clearing things up , but could you - or anyone else - finish up the good work ! Thanks again , may you be guided . [[User:Hhnnrr|Hhnnrr]] 09:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:You're quite right; Sanskrit and Pali are languages, while Devanagari is a writing system, so you were right to ask for the Devanagari. The confusion arose because people thought you were giving badly transliterated Sanskrit instead of correctly transliterated Pali! [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 07:34, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Really ? So then what does it mean when "Vineet Chaitanya" says : " I have put the Sanskrit equivalents in the square brackets " ? If both are Divanagari . Are Hindi and Pali Devababgari different ? + I would really appreciate it if someone would help me out with the rest of the words , I'll paste them here again to make it easier :

*'''The eightfold path''' : Samma Dithi - Samma Sankappa - Samma Vaca - Samma Kammanta - Samma Ajiva - Samma Vayama - Samma Samudhi - samma samadhi

*'''Three marks of existence''' : Dukkha - Anicca - Anatta

*'''Mahayana concepts''' : Tathata - Sunita

*'''Theravada canon''' ( three baskets ) : Sutra Patika - Vinaya - Abhidhamma

*'''Non-canonical texts''' : Visuddhimagga - Awakening of Mahayana Faith - Platform sutra - terma

*'''Places in India''' : Rajagaha - Vesali - Pataliputta

*'''Buddhist school''' : Mahasanghika

*'''Indian king''' : Asuka ---[[User:Hhnnrr|Hhnnrr]] 09:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC) Thanks

::The Sanskrit and Pali spellings are different because Sanskrit and Pali are different languages and pronounce the words differently. A parallel case would be the Latin and Italian words for "dog"; the Latin word is spelled CANIS and the Italian word spelled CANE, but the alphabet is the same. Vineet Chaitanya gave you both the Pali spellings (what you were actually asking for) and the Sanskrit spellings (as a matter of interest). [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 09:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I wasnt asking for Pali but rather for sanskrit, as it says in many wikipedia articles after citing the english transliteration of a Buddhist term : sanskrit : - and then the word written in an unknown language ( to me ) . Would that mean they are using sanskrit spelling for Pali words ? If so , I'd have to revise a whole section of my thesis where I gave sanskrit equivelants to Pali translierations . I hope thats not case !! [[User:Hhnnrr|Hhnnrr]] 09:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:The difficulty from my point of view is that you are giving Roman transliteration of the Pali word and asking the Devanagari rendering of its equivalent Sanskrit word. Whereas Wikipedia articles seem to give Roman transliteration of both Pali as well as Sanskrit words, for example, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism#The_Noble_Eightfold_Path

1. Right Understanding - (samyag-dRSTi, sammaa-diTTi)

2. Right Thought - 〈samyak-saMkalpa, sammaa-saGkalpa〉

3. Right Speech - (samyag-vaac, sammaa-vaacaa)

4. Right Conduct - (samyak-kalmaanta, sammaa-kammanta)

5. Right Livelihood - (samyag-aajiiva, sammaa-aajiiva)

6. Right Effort - (samyag-vyaayaama, sammaa-vaayaama)

7. Right Mindfulness - (samyak-smrTi, sammaa-sati)

8. Right Concentration - (samyak-samaadhi, sammaa-samaadhi)"

Please note in the above first the Sanskrit word and then Pali word are given for each entry.

Vineet Chaitanya

:I have just added the Devanagari spelling in both Sanskrit and Pali to the articles [[Dukkha]], [[Impermanence]], and [[Anatta]]. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 10:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== Possible languages for the name "Creidieki" ==

I'm considering legally changing my first name to "Creidieki", and people seem to have a lot of trouble understanding that someone might have a *new* name. I'm starting to think that it might be easier if there were a country or geographic region that I could claim it was from. It's pronounced something vaguely like "Crih-dee-key". I don't need a perfect match, I'm just looking for some origin that would sound vaguely plausible. -- [[User:Creidieki|Creidieki]] 17:30, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

: Possibly vaguely Polish. Like a corruption of ''kraj'' and ''dięki'' or something. Not that I think any Poles would be convinced. I don't think it sounds terribly plausible in any language though. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 18:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

:Or [[Gaelic]]? [http://www.mediaglyphs.org/mg/x/an.php] a' creidsinn (creidich)

:- to believe. There are quite a few other languages on that link with cre- words meaning "believe", [[User:Saintswithin|Saint]]|[[User talk:Saintswithin|swithin]] 18:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

----

"Creideki" was the name of a dolphin character in [[Startide Rising]]. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 03:29, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:"Credu" is Welsh for "to believe". "Creduci" (pronounced something like your name) would mean something like "to believe a dog". [[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:21, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::No, that would be more like ''"the belief of a dog"'', though grammatically that would e ''"crêd-gi"''. This is getting a bit metaphysical! -- [[User:Arwel_Parry|Arwel]] ([[User talk:Arwel_Parry|talk]]) 21:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

==Why Spanish?==

My mom is planning on home schooling my brother starting next year (don't ask me why, I don't know) and she wanted me to teach him some basic Spanish. My brother is totally opposed (possibly racist too) and refuses to ever learn Spanish, anything associated, etc. I live in the [[Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex]] (my mom her family in [[Denton, Texas|Denton]]) in Texas. This seems to be reason enough to need to learn some Spanish. He wants to learn German. I tell him there really aren't a whole lot of Germans living in Texas (who don't speak English already) but there are plenty of Mexicans in Texas who don't know a lick of English. I'm not planning on teaching him all the Spanish I know, I just want to teach him how to un-conjugate verbs from some of the main tenses and some basic expressions. I have tolled him this and he still refuses. '''What are some other reasons y'all can think of why he should learn Spanish?''' (As I sit here proof-reading my question, I see how Texan I actually am. The stereotypes are certaintly true with me).

:Not counting practical considerations, from the perspective of English speakers: Spanish has logical spelling rules. Spanish has some interesting grammar rules (relative to English) that force you to think more clearly about what your saying (more work but an advantage), and the grammar is much more regular than the equivalent in Italian or Portuguese (less work). Excellent stepping stone for learning Latin, Italian, Portuguese. But why not learn both? [[User:Peter Grey|Peter Grey]] 02:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::Also, everybody in Germany learns English. You're a lot more likely to need Spanish if you happen to be in Nicaragua than you are to need German if you are in Germany, Austria or Switzerland. -- [[User:Mwalcoff|Mwalcoff]] 02:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:::I'd let him learn German, and make sure he gets a teacher that knows how to teach language (otherwise you get my situation with Spanish, I could ace all the tests and worksheets but never actually learned to speak). One of three things will happen: 1) He will be so enamoured with German that he'll want to learn other languages too. 2) He'll apply himself and learn German moderately well, but then disregard language in general for most of the rest of his life. 3) When he finds out that learning German actually requires ''work,'' he'll lose interest, flop the class, and not do anything with language for the rest of his life. I was the kind of person that fell under case 1. I didn't really have much interest in learning any language but German, but after learning German, I quickly took to Japanese, Spanish, Latin, and French. My dad turned out as case 2, he learned the language, but it doesn't really interest him, and he let it fall by the wayside. If your brother does this with a language he wanted to take, that's very close to his own (English is after all a Germanic language), he won't do any better with Spanish, which he did not want to take. And then there's case 3, which many of the kids in my various language classes fell into. If he's a case 3 with German, he certainly ain't gonna learn Spanish.

:::I myself lived in Colorado for 15 and a half years, in the DFW area (Duncanville) for 3, and in the Tyler area for the past 8 months. In all that time I only recall meeting one person that I had to talk to that understood only Spanish and no English. And even that situation was resolved by recruiting one of the myriad bilinguals that can be found in Texas as an interpreter. So he probably doesn't really ''need'' Spanish. And if he is racist, you want to cure that before you start teaching him. Firstoff, you're not likely to teach him anything unless his attitude changes. Secondly, if he does learn Spanish and still is racist, mightn't he not just use it to berate Spanish speakers? If you teach him anything of grammar, he'll probably be able to get whatever cuss-words, racial epithets, etc. he wants out of a Spanish-English dictionary.

:::The best arguement for learning a language (other than fun) is because it's courteous to at least attempt to speak to someone in their language even if they know yours. But this applies to German as well as Spanish. He's more likely to be courteous to speakers of a language he wanted to learn than to those of a language he didn't want. But whatever language you teach him, I'm not sure homeschool is the best way to learn a language. Depending on how well you know Spanish, it may be out of the question for you to teach. Can you carry on a prolonged conversation in any (or at least most) subjects? If not, you can do worksheets and wordlists, but it's likely to bore him to tears and teach him little. If you are fluent, you need to make sure that at least 75% of instruction is carried out through speaking in Spanish, demonstrating what you're trying to say with gestures, drawings, etc. (''not'' translations into English). He won't learn it well unless you make him think in it. You yourself will need to be willing to put a lot of work in. If you are willing, the next step is to convince him. If you're not, don't even try. [[User:Linguofreak|Linguofreak]] 04:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

: Well, learning any foreign language is good. But for pros of Spanish over German, there are a number. As said, it's easier (for a native English speaker) than German is (spelling, grammar and to a lesser extent, vocabulary). Second, far more people in the world speak Spanish, and in particular in your part of the world. The role of German as an international language has been diminished a lot, mostly by English. Spanish and French haven't lost as much ground in comparison. But at the end of the day, the answer really has to come from why you want to learn to speak a second language in the first place. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 04:17, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

: I would disagree that Spanish is easier than German for an English speaker. Grammar and morphology are quite similar between English and German (of course not identical), and the core vocabulary is a much better match than between English and Spanish. About the only place where Spanish is easier for an English speaker is phonology: There are no phonemes in North American Spanish that do not exist in English or at least cannot be approximated unambiguously. German is also far more widespread than you think (actually more native speakers than French). See the [[German language|Wikipedia Article on German]], which mentions for instance, that German is the second most common language on the internet, and is more popular than French as a foreign language in Europe. [[User:Linguofreak|Linguofreak]] 06:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::Unless he just said German to annoy you, one good reason why he should learn German is '''motivation''', which you need to have at least a little of if you want to learn a language at all. Believe me, I used to be a language teacher.

::Other reasons for him to learn German are:

:*Plenty of US Americans can speak Spanish but not so many can speak German: being able to speak a slightly more unusual language could give him a big advantage later in life. (E.g. if he works as a translator, travel agent, pilot, CIA officer, tourist guide, historian, salesperson at Disneyland, etc etc.)

:*In Texas there are a some high-tech companies with factories producing microchips, etc in Germany, e.g. AMD with its fab [http://www.amdboard.com/amdfab30.html] in [[Dresden]]. [[Infineon]] has fabs in Dresden and Texas, too. They often send their workers to Germany, and it is a big advantage if you can speak even only a little German. If he stays in Texas, it would still be good to have German on his resumé if he applies for a company like that.

:*German has a reputation for being hard, so looks good on a resumé. Actually, I've learnt French, Spanish and German (I'm English) and they are all hard in some ways and easier in others. German is actually very easy to spell, too, BTW.

:*The German Wikipedia is the second largest wikipedia!

:*Why shouldn't he learn German, if that's what he fancies?

::[[User:Saintswithin|Saint]]|[[User talk:Saintswithin|swithin]] 09:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:Of course, if you want to learn a language for the sole reason of learning a language, all practical considerations aside, clearly the one to learn is classical Greek. It is the most pure and least mangaled of all languages that I've learnt, so it's a fantastic base for learning future European languages. [[User:Sam Korn|Sam Korn]] ^{[[User talk:Sam Korn|(smoddy)]]} 10:04, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::I really, really, hope you're kidding about that, Sam, and that you don't actually believe there are such things as "pure" and "mangled" languages. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 10:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

:::I was slightly serious. But only slightly. That said, classical Greek is fantasticly poetic. [[User:Sam Korn|Sam Korn]] ^{[[User talk:Sam Korn|(smoddy)]]} 10:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

The main reason my mom wanted me to teach him some basics was b/c we all see him headed in a direction different from me. I'm more slighted towards the corporate world, while he will turn out doing some kind of landscaping work. I forgot to mention this earlier. Thank you very much though for all your wonderful sugestions. [[User:Schyler|schyler]] 12:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::As a language teacher, I can assure that attitude is probably more important than anything. Want him to learn Spanish? Take him somewhere that would blow away his stereotypes of "greasy, uncultured Mexicans" (which I assume are what's powering his racism), like any of the Mexican colonial cities, Guanajuato or San Luis Potosí for instance. I never wanted to really learn a language until I was in an attractive foreign country. Also, it's a good for you guys in other ways.

:::We can only hope his racism is that shallowly rooted. If the reason he wants to learn German is to read ''Mein Kampf'' in the original or to communicate with German Neo-Nazi groups, it will be much harder to turn him to the light side. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 16:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Maybe he'll read Marx and Engels instead? On the main point, dont try and force him to learn Spanish. He obviously doesnt have the motivation to do it so it would just be a waste of your time. He might as well learn German. [[User:Jameswilson|Jameswilson]] 00:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:Why not compare the two languages on a variety of points?

* GRAMMAR: On the one hand, English owes more than half of its words to Latin (ultimately), which enables an educated English-speaker to understand a complicated Spanish discussion much more easily than the equivalent German discussion. On the other hand, English shares quite a few common terms with German. On the ''other'' hand, German is far more inflected and agglutinative than Spanish, and German conjugation is not really all that similar to modern English verbs (which almost totally lack conjugation). On the ''other'' hand, Spanish verbs are difficult as well, and their conjugation is more complicated. However, Spanish has fewer irregular verbs.

* ORTHOGRAPHY: Spanish and German spelling conventions are equally easy and intuitive, with a few easily-remembered exceptions. Both are far more regular than our weird-ass English orthography. Both Spanish and German use diacritics, of course, which can be obnoxious when typing.

* DEMOGRAPHY: Spanish-speakers vastly outnumber German-speakers, and are more widely-dispersed across the globe. Moreover, Spanish-speaking countries have a much higher birth rate than German-speaking ones. At this rate, German could be a dead language soon (not really). But demographic changes could quite easily have an effect on the future relevance of the language.

* UTILITY: Living in the Americas, it's far more useful to speak Spanish. I can't think of an "on the other hand" for this one. This is clear-cut. If you intend to remain in the U.S. and not become a translator or interpreter, there really isn't a pressing need to learn German. It would be more useful to learn French or Portuguese. If you want to move to Germany, that's a different story.

* LITERATURE: German has a larger, richer corpus of literature than Spanish (a huge percentage of philosophers and scientists were/are German). However, Spanish has accrued a lot of interesting literature of its own over the past few centuries (including my personal favorite, [[Jorge Luis Borges|Borges]]). If you want to study something like economics or philosophy, German will suit you better, though I doubt it's really much of an advantage these days.

* COLLEGE/JOB: For resume purposes, German is undoubtedly more likely to impress. I took a few years of German and it never ceases to amaze people. "They offer that??" In many U.S. schools, Spanish is the "default" foreign language, so it is widely (albeit unfairly) associated with slackers and C-students.

* SCENERY: If you're looking for trivial reasons, consider that German-speaking countries are (in the opinion of many) colder and less picturesque than Spanish-speaking ones.

:In conclusion... Spanish strikes me as the more logical choice, especially if you aren't enthusiastic about either option. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed German, and I enjoy being able to read it today. But I don't feel like I ''really'' got anything out of the class. For me, it just didn't serve a purpose.

:On the other hand... why not learn them both? Neither is particularly difficult if you really put effort into it. Or... why not learn neither? Learn Chinese or Hindi instead! Both have [[List of languages by number of native speakers|more speakers than Spanish]]. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 04:29, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:: Colder, yeah, which means snow, and some of the greatest skiing in the world. But less picturesque? Germanic countries have epic fantasy castles and mountains. I think it really depends on what you're looking for. For chemistry, a couple of years of German is still required at the graduate level. There's some mathematics still being published in German, but it seems like French is major non-English publishing language for mathematics. If you want to read stuff printed between ~1750-1950 in math or physics, German is likely to be necessarry. --[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] 04:43, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::: Well, I was really just kidding about that one. There are some very pleasant sights in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. But I don't think you'd call the region "balmy". [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 05:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::I read that there were so many German immigrants in the USA early in its history, that at one time German was looking like becoming the ''lingua franca'', displacing English. True? Interesting that it has become so much less significant in the USA. If you want a language you can get your heart into, Russian does very nicely. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 10:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::That's correct. German was very influential in certain American colonies, though the [http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa010820a.htm legend] about it almost gaining official status is untrue. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 23:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::::Thanks, Bhumiya. Now I feel completely demythologised. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 00:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

::There are both advantages and disadvantages to learning either language, but it all depends on his learning style. I'm convinced the reason a lot of people stop learning a foreign language is because it is not taught to their method of using language. I was learning [[French language|French]], and I had all but dropped it, and then I accidently came across [[conlang]]s like [[Esperanto]] and [[Interlingua]], which changed the whole way I looked at language. Whereas the French class had me memorize sentences and phrases with little explanation of [[conjugation]] or [[grammar]], these [[conlang]] sites started at [[syntax]], and word arrangement. They started with the foundation of forming a phrase and then added in vocab like variables. After that, I could pick up the gist of a whole lot more languages. My point is this: if your mom sees that your brother is having difficulty with retaining spanish/german (or whatever he decides to do) try teaching him with a different method. Because he is being home-schooled, he has the advantage of being able to be taught in a way that fits him. She should take into account what kind of learner he is.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 18:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:[[Lacrimosa|German]] [[Rammstein|music]] [[Die Toten Hosen|is]] [[Die Ärzte|way]] [[Tanzwut|better]] than Spanish. Serious point, actually, music was the main reason I kept up and improved my knowledge of the language. However, I do agree that if you're going for utility, Spanish is probably the better language to learn for the reasons above. But then, if you're going ''purely'' for utility, you should learn [[Chinese language|Chinese]].

:In the end, the average Westerner probably won't ever meet someone who doesn't speak English (though if you go to [[France]] or [[Wales]] they might pretend not to). So learning a language to enjoy something cultural is as good a reason as any. Though everyone likes to hear someone address them in their own language, even if it's just a quick "Guten Tag" or "Buenos dias" or "Ni hao" before falling back into the lingua franca. --[[User:Samuel Blanning|Sam Blanning]]^{[[User_talk:Samuel_Blanning|(talk)]]} 00:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:: I find that it highly unlikely that "the average Westerner probably won't ever meet someone who doesn't speak English". In the heart of the US, I quite frequently run into customers who can't communicate in English. Since these are the Mexicans who chose to come to the US, I assume that if I went to Mexico, I'd find many people who can't speak English. I understand that Japanese tourists who have gone on guided tours of the US have went home with the impression that Americans all speak Japanese, but if you look around, I suspect you'll find more non-English speakers then you think.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] 05:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== words with multiple meanings ==

Hi

Could you please help me with a few words(except verbs)that has more than four or five meanings.

Thanking You

abha

:moved to its own question --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:oh, and [[wiktionary:set|set]] has lots of meanings, some verb and some noun. --[[User:WhiteDragon|WhiteDragon]] 19:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== Wiktionary's Translation of the "Week" ==

When we say Translations of the Week, it's never weekly, but still, we need your help for translating some of these terms, if you would be so kind. Thank you very much. -- --[[User:Wonderfool|Wonderfool]] [[User talk:Wonderfool|t]][[Special:Contributions/Wonderfool|(c)]] 11:57, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

{|width=100%

|width=33%|

<div style="float:left;border:solid #FFB3B3 1px;margin:1px">

{| cellspacing="0" style="width:100%;background:#FFE0E8"

| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#FFB3B3;text-align:center;font-size:18pt" | '''1'''

| style="padding:4pt;text-align:center;" | [[wikt:I don't know|I don't know]]

|}</div>

|width=34%|

<div style="float:left;border:solid #FFB3B3 1px;margin:1px">

{| cellspacing="0" style="width:100%;background:#FFE0E8"

| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#FFB3B3;text-align:center;font-size:18pt" | '''2'''

| style="padding:4pt;text-align:center;" | [[wikt:love triangle|love triangle]]

|}</div>

|width=33%|

<div style="float:left;border:solid #FFB3B3 1px;margin:1px">

{| cellspacing="0" style="width:100%;background:#FFE0E8"

| style="width:45px;height:45px;background:#FFB3B3;text-align:center;font-size:18pt" | '''3'''

| style="padding:4pt;text-align:center;" | [[wikt:plus|plus]]

|}</div>

|}

Translate into what language? [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 23:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

If you're looking for the German translation, "I don't know" is "Ich weiss es nicht"; "plus" can be "plus (+ dat)" or "und" or "ausserdem" unless you're talking about the plus-sign, in which case it'd be "das Pluszeichen" and "love triangle" is "das Liebesdreieck" (I think). [[User: meinekurzebeine]] 10:53, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I can tell you the Spanish and Japanese translations:

SPANISH: "I don't know" is "No sé" or "Yo no sé" for emphasis; "plus", depending on the usage, could be either "más" (one plus one), "signo de más" (plus sign), or "además" (Jack plus Jill); "love triangle" seems to be "triángulo de amor".

JAPANESE: "I don't know" might be translated as "知らない" ''shiranai'', which means literally "unknown"; "plus", in the sense of "plus sign", is "正号" ''seigou'', and in place of a verb, they just use the particle "と", which means "with" or "and"; "love triangle" is "三角関係" ''sankakukankei'', which literally means "triangle relationship". [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 04:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:''Shiranai'' is a verb form and "unknown" is an adjective. However it can be used in phrases like ''shiranai hito'', i.e. "unknown person". In general, "don't know" would be a more accurate translation. It is a little informal; the polite form, "Shirimasen" is probably preferable here. --[[User:Dforest|Dforest]] 01:52, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:There were supposed to add translations to these wiktionary entries in wiktionary.

:I still don't know what language you want this translated into. In any case:

"I don't know" in French is "Je ne sais pas", "Love Triangle" literally would be "Triangle D'Amour" though, knowing the French they probably have a much sexier phrase for it. And "plus" is simply "plus".

"I don't know" in Hebrew is: "ani lo yode'ah", in Yiddish it's: "ich vaist nisht" in Russian it's: "ya nye znayu" in Pig-Latin it's: "I-ay ont-day ow-nay", and in Common Teenager English it's: "beats me" (with a shrug of the shoulders).[[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 00:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In Latin, "I don't know" is "nescio." On the wiktionary page, it is erroneously translated *"non scio." "Love triangle" literally is "triangulus amoris." I am not sure of how to translate the matematical term "plus" to Latin (it could very well be "plus," the same word), but when it is a synonym of "and," the Latin equivalent is "et."--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 01:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know:

*Welsh: ''Dydw i ddim yn gwybod'', '' 'dwi ddim yn gwybod'', or (my personal favorite) '' 'sa i'n gwybod''.

*Jèrriais (Jersey Norman): ''Jé n'sai pon''

[[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:17, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In Norwegian "Jeg vet ikke" ([[Bokmål]])/"Eg veit ikkje" ([[Nynorsk]]), "Kjærlighets triangel" (b)/"Kjærleiks triangel" (n) and "Pluss". --[[User:EivindFOyangen|Eivind]][[User talk:EivindFOyangen|^t]][[Special:Emailuser/EivindFOyangen|^@]][[Special:Contributions/EivindFOyangen|^c]] 19:13, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Help in parsing needed ==

Would be grateful for identification of parts of speech of words in following sentence:

"The design of wings is complicated."

Thanks!!!

--J. Stumped

:[[Article (grammar)|Please]] [[Noun|do]] [[Adposition|your]] [[Verb|own]] [[Adjective|homework]]. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 19:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

== Re-spelling of a word ==

If you can, please provide me with the re-spelling of the word, or a break-down of the pronounciation of the french word used to describe the area between the neck and breasts of a woman. I believe the word is spelled deco'lletege. I'm sure that the accent mark and one or two letters are incorrect in the word. I hope that I've given you enough information about my question to answer it . Any help would be greatly appreciated.

- Crystal

:I'm not even sure what to call it in English. [[User:Loomis51|Loomis51]] 23:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

*''[[Décolletage]]'' originally referred to cutting a plunging neckline, and only by extension to the area revealed by wearing one. It's used in French and English. English ''décolletage'' <= French ''décoleté''. As for pronunciation, "day-coal-e-taj" should get you by. - [[User:Nunh-huh|Nunh-huh]] 23:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

= April 11 =

== Spanish ==

Could some one treanslate this for me? ~~goodguy~~

Se me esta acabando

lo buena que soy

y me esta llegando lo malo por dentro

yo no se matar

pero voy a aprender

para disipar todo el mal

que me has hecho

y si llego a ser

asesina por ti

matarás por eso

derecho al infierno.

Ya me estoy volviendo

también como tu

como tu lo hacías

en la iglesia del pueblo

de rodillas

besabas la cruz

y llorando con golpes de pecho

yo creí que rezabas por mi

quién iba a pensar

que me estabas mintiendo

Si por estas cosas

que acabas de hacer

se molesta Dios

y te manda el castigo

yo voy a rezar

un rosario por ti

pa¹ que te perdone

lo malo que has sido

y si ya te tiene

del fuego el Señor

yo sería capaz

de quemarme contigo

Ya me estoy volviendo

también como tu

como tu lo hacías

en la iglesia del pueblo

de rodillas

besabas la cruz

y llorando con golpes de pecho

yo crei que rezabas por mi

quién iba a pensar

que me estabas mintiendo

:Try running it through [http://babelfish.altavista.com/ this]. -[[User:Snpoj|Snpoj]] 02:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::I'd like to see the results! Lengthy sentences like these are really not suitable for machine translation. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 04:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Witness, for example, the machine translation for the first sentence: "This finishing the good thing to me that I am and me this arriving bad on the inside not to kill itself but I am going to learn to dissipate badly all that you have done to me and if I get to be killer by you you right kill for that reason hell". [[User:Jahiegel|Joe]] 05:12, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Wow, really looks horrible ;) I'm gonna attempt a somewhat free translation, using puctuation:

My patience is coming to an end and I'm filling with evil thoughts. I don't know how to kill but I'm going to learn, to dissipate all the evil you've done to me. And if I become a killer for you you'll kill for that, you'll go straight to hell.

I'm becoming just like you, like you used to do in the church of the village. You kissed the cross kneeling down and crying hitting your chest. I thought you were praying for me, who would have thought you were lying.

If for these things you've just done God becomes annoyed and punishes you, I'm going to say a rosary for you, so that he forgives how bad you've been. And if you're already in God's fire I'd be ready to burn with you.

I'm becoming just like you, like you used to do in the church of the village. You kissed the cross kneeling down and crying hitting your chest. I thought you were praying for me, who would have thought you were lying.

Hope that was useful. --[[User:RiseRover|RiseRover]]|[[User talk:RiseRover|^talk]] 08:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

== Hauling someone over the coals ==

What does it mean to haul someone over the coals? (or in German, "jemandem die Leviten lesen")? Thanks [[User: meinekurzebeine]] 10:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:To haul or drag someone over the coals is to take them to task; to admonish them for a perceived wrong. --[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 03:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::I've always heard it as "rake them over the coals". I imagine this refers to an imaginary torture imposed on them (making them burn themselves on hot rocks). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 03:12, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:::You got me interested. "The phrase drag (or rake) over the coals was a reference to the treatment meted out to heretics by Christians" [http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/header.jpg]. Which in turn appears to refer to heaping "coals of fire on someone's head"[http://www.allwords.com/word-haul%20someone%20over%20the%20coals.html]. --[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 03:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Illocutionary speech acts ==

Can an imperative also be an illocutionary speech act or does it have to be something like "I declare," "I proclaim," "I pronounce you..."? Can something like "Sit down" be an illocutionary speech act? Thanks [[User: meinekurzebeine]] 10:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

: Actually, I think a command like "Sit down" is closer to being [[perlocutionary act|perlocutionary]]. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 04:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

== 'again' in German ==

What is the difference between 'wieder' and 'nochmals' in German? When my little boy wants to go on the slide one more time, he shouts "Again!" I think the correct translation would be 'nochmals' (or 'noch einmal') in this case, but could he say 'wieder' instead? If not, when is 'wieder' appropriate? Thanks very much. [[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 05:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:"nochmals" or "noch einmal" can usually be translated with "once more," "wieder" with "again."

:Some typical examples: ''Sag es nochmals.'' (Say it once more.) / ''Komm mal wieder.'' (Come again.)

:When your little boy shouts "again" in that case, he literally means "one more time," hence in German he should say "nochmals" or "noch einmal," not "wieder."

:To explain the difference generally, I would say "nochmals" expresses '''one''' repetition (noch '''ein'''mal, while "wieder" can express '''several''' repetitions (ein '''weiteres''' Mal, not specified). [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 06:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::Great, thanks very much. [[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 07:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::“Nochmals!” would sound very artificial for a child to say in that situation, I'd say. “Nochmal!” sounds better where I live. [[User:Wikipeditor|Wikipeditor]] 17:07, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== 'may' and 'might' ==

What do people think about the use of 'may' or 'might' in a sentence such as: "Going outside with insufficient clothing in cold weather '''may/might''' lead to catching a chill"? A well-read acquaintance of mine argues that 'may' refers to permission, and 'might' to possibility, and therefore only 'might' would be correct in this context. I disagree - I think that both 'may' and 'might' can refer to possibility, with 'may' indicating greater likelihood than 'might'. Any thoughts? [[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 09:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:I agree with you. "may" refers not only to permission.

:The ''Advanced Gramar in Use'' (Cambridge University press) says, "...we use '''may''' or '''might''' to say there is a possibility of something happening or being true. There is often little difference in meaning, but '''might''' can suggest that there is less possibility." [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 09:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::I don't know about advanced English syntax that much, but I do know a fair bit about Latin syntax, and I believe it is applicable here. "May" goes with primary sequence; "might" goes with secondary (aka historic) sequence. The primary sequence includes (not exclusively) these tenses: present, future, perfect (to use the names used in Latin). The historic sequence includes (not exclusively) the aorist (I'll elaborate on the distinction between the perfect and the aorist in a minute). It is impossible to make the other secondary tenses work with "might".

::So, "I may be clever at the moment" and "I may go there tomorrow" are both primary sequence and both properly use "may".

::Now, the difference between the aorist and the perfect. This is easy when you haven't got a "may" or a "might" confusing things. Perfect is "I have done so-and-so". Aorist is "I did so-and-so" or "I did do so-and-so". Perfect uses "may", so "I may have done so-and-so", whereas aorist uses "might", so "I might have done so-and-so".

::The differences are subtle, but I think this is the way the sequence of tense rule works in English. [[User:Sam Korn|Sam Korn]] ^{[[User talk:Sam Korn|(smoddy)]]} 09:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Very interesting from the '''grammarian''''s perspective. The differences are indeed subtle, a lot less obvious than the difference between "may" and "can", for example. But I think grammarians are the only people who give a damn one way or the other (bless them). From the '''reader''''s perspective, all that matters is the meaning. I can detect virtually no difference in meaning between "may" and "might" in this ''particular'' sentence. All rules default to "Either is equally acceptable". And I really wonder if there are any good professional '''writers''' who agonise about such apparently insignificant technicalities (no offence to the questioner. In fact, thank you for a most enlightening discussion).

:::(Lol). How's that for sitting on the fence <small> (I think [[List of Monty Python's Flying Circus episodes#Series 1 (Oct. 1969 - Jan. 1970)|Monty Python]] has a job for me - see Episode 2, Sketch 3)</small>. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 10:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Well, thank ''you'' for an interesting post. But I see from your talk page that you are a grammarian yourself ("adhering to correct grammar"), so you must agree that there is something at stake here :) [[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 10:36, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::The grammarian in me agrees 100 per cent and thinks this is terribly important. The other two guys in here are more interested in chilling out and writing and reading good literature. :--) [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 13:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:: From a linguist's perspective, it is an error to take the rules of one language and use them to determine meaning in another, particularly when the languages are as different as English and Latin. Doing so has led to some of the more disfunctional prescriptions in English (e.g., "Do not end a sentence with a preposition.'') ''May'' and ''might'' as described in the Cambridge grammar reflect usage. Beyond the internal grammar reflected in that usage, there is no "correctness" or "incorrectness" in grammar. [[User:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]

:::That's certainly true, but it isn't always applicable. Sometimes Latin rules can be used to understand English forms more fully. I'm not saying that the guidelines I mentioned above are prescriptive. I was merely giving what I understand to be the way that these words are technically used, and I am not claiming to know the rules perfectly. However, "might" is without a single doubt the past tense (aorist, if you will) of "may". [[User:Sam Korn|Sam Korn]] ^{[[User talk:Sam Korn|(smoddy)]]} 13:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::This is undoubtedly true technically. But most readers would understand both words to refer to a possible future event, rather than having anything to do with the past. "Might have" or "may have" would be necessary to convey a sense of past action. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 14:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::''Might'' historically comes from the past tense of ''may'', which is clear from the ''t''. However, it is debatable whether it is a past tense in any meaningful sense now, and I stand by the irrelevance of Latin in this case. Cross linguistic comparisons, under the rubric of ''comparative syntax'' are useful in developing an understanding of structures at a more abstract level, say, [[universal grammar]] than this. Also, the statement "It is impossible to make the other secondary tenses work with ''might''" is by definition prescriptive, when, in fact, ''might'' is used.

::::::I really don't see how you can put "I was going" or "I had gone" into a construction using "may" or "might", which was the point I was making. I disagree that Latin is irrelevant. I wasn't making the statement prescriptively, just how I personally understand it having studied Latin and Greek. [[User:Sam Korn|Sam Korn]] ^{[[User talk:Sam Korn|(smoddy)]]} 15:42, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:So is there a consensus here that ''may'' and ''might'' are interchangeable when referring to a possible future event? [[User:Richardrj|Richardrj]] 15:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::::Sam, we're getting into a mutual "yes it is" "no it isn't" thing here, but I'm not sure what you mean with the "was going" or "had gone" construction, but if you are fine with it, let's just leave it. Anyway, the sentence that provoked this debate is fine with either modal. [[User:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]

== Taking ownership of the null ==

What does it mean to "take ownership of the null"? I know it's something to do with claiming power (e.g. in the play, Oleanna) but I'm just wondering if anyone has a specific definition for this? Thanks. [[User: meinekurzebeine]] 9:33, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:[http://www.columbia.edu/cu/provost/docs/dilemmas.html This article] discusses it in some depth. A proper understanding depends on the concept of the [[null hypothesis]], but one could paraphrase it as 'setting the terms of the debate'. The person who 'owns the null' is the person who sets up the initial presumption in a discussion; anyone with a different view therefore has a hard task in disproving that presumption. [[User:Markalexander100|Henry]][[User talk:Markalexander100|^Flower]] 16:04, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

== "War" in other languages ==

I'd like to know some one word translations for the word 'war' in languages other than english. Thanks if you can help.

:In Czech we say '''válka''', in German '''Krieg'''. [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 17:34, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:: युद्ध (yud'dha) in Hindi, guerre in French. [[User:deeptrivia|deeptrivia]] ([[User talk:deeptrivia|talk]]) 17:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:Three more from me: '''guerra''' in both Spanish and Italian, '''война''' in Russian. [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 17:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

: '''Rat''' in Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 17:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/War [[User:Markalexander100|Henry]][[User talk:Markalexander100|^Flower]] 17:57, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::: Hmm, some words not included there: Danish: "krig" (same as Norwegian/Swedish.. big surprize), Icelandic "Stríð"/"Styrjöld". Hungarian: "Háború". --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 18:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:::: 軍 or 戦 (both pronounced ''ikusa'') in [[Japanese language|Japanese]], but this can also mean "battle" or "fight". [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 18:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::: In Hebrew, the most common word is מלחמה, (milchamah), but you could also use קרב, (krav) which would refer to a battle or fight. In Latin, war is bellum (you'd think it would have something to do with ''belle'' in French, but it doesn't to the best of my knowledge). [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]^{[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]} 21:01, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Belle comes from the adjective bellus/a/um, which means "beautiful" just like in French. Bellum the noun is war, which comes from an old Latin form "duellum" which survived in a different sense to become our word "duel". (D shifting to B in Latin is a frequent occurrence for some reason.) [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 03:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::Silly me, I didn't check the Wiktionary link, which of course has the Hebrew and Latin words. Oh well... [[User:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: black">СПУТНИК</span>]]^{[[User talk:Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">ССС</span>]] [[Special:Emailuser/Sputnikcccp|<span style="color: maroon">Р</span>]]} 21:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

:"Guerre" in French. "Rhyfel" in Welsh. [[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:Traditional Chinese: 戰爭 Simplified Chinese: 战争 --[[User:Ka hang|Kahang]] 15:09, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::Do not go to Wikt, WP has it : Search (search button, on your left) '''war''' - go - edit this page - go to the bottom : 40 words, e.g. [ [hr:Rat]][ [id:Perang]][ [is:Stríð]][ [it:Guerra]][ [he:מלחמה]][ [ka:ომი]]. Now language codes like "hr" are listed under country codes (?) [[ISO_3166-1_alpha-2|here]]. --[[User:Harvestman|DLL]] 20:18, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

In Tagalog it's ''gera'' or ''gyera'', from Spanish ''guerra''. A less comonly used word, a native one, is ''digmaan''. --[[User:Christopher Sundita|Chris S.]] 02:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The word for "war" is "Milito" in esperanto, "Wig" in old english, and "krijg" or "oorlog" in dutch.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 18:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

= April 12 =

== toward vs towards ==

what's the difference in saying "I ran toward the house" and "I ran towards the house"? are they both correct?

[[User:Deep evil|Deep evil]] 00:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:The two are interchangeable. Toward is more common in American English; towards is the more common usage in British English[http://www.drgrammar.org/faqs/all.shtml].--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 00:54, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Some grammar books recommend the ''s''-less variants of words like ''toward(s)'', ''afterward(s)'', and ''backward(s)'' for "correct" speech and writing. Despite this, you should use whichever is more natural to you.--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 01:46, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

*I have adopted my own rule. I say ''towards'' to always mean "in the direction of." For example, "I am moving towards the right direction."<Br>I say ''toward'' to mean "imminent." For instance, "I feel that a war with Iran is toward."</br>[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 10:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::The people you usually speak with may understand that, but I doubt most English speakers would. If you said to me ''"I feel that a war with Iran is toward"'', I would ask ''"Toward what?"''. :--) [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 11:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:::The two are interchangeable when used as prepositions or adverbs, but only ''toward'' may be used as an adjective:

:::Toward \To"ward\, Towards \To"wards\ adv.

Near; at hand; in state of preparation.

:::Toward \To"ward\, Towards \To"wards\, prep.

1. In the direction of; to.

2. With direction to, in a moral sense; with respect or

reference to; regarding; concerning.

3. Tending to; in the direction of; in behalf of.

4. Near; about; approaching to.

:::Toward \To"ward\, a. [AS. ?. See Toward, prep.]

1. Approaching; coming near.

2. Ready to do or learn; compliant with duty; not froward;

apt; docile; tractable; as, a toward youth.

3. Ready to act; forward; bold; valiant.

:::See Webster's 1913 dictionary for further examples. (available at dict.org) --[[User:Akohler|Akohler]] ^{[[User talk:Akohler|Talk]]}&nbsp;^{[[Special:Emailuser/Akohler|@]]} 21:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

== Bookreports... ==

i've got a bookreport to submit after the easter holiday, and i want it to be good. but how can i write a good report? what are the criterias, and what should i include? many thanks.

--[[User:203.218.93.206|203.218.93.206]] 01:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:Here are some suggestions:

:*Always capitalize the first letter of a sentence.

:*Write "book report" as two words, not one, unless you're German.

:*Always capitalize the word Easter.

:*Always capitalize the word "I".

:*"Criteria" is plural. The singular form is "criterion".

:[[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 02:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:Anytime you describe a trend ("theme") in the book, give examples (quotes with page numbers). And use correct punctuation and capitalization, as StuRat suggests. [[User:Jade Knight|The Jade Knight]] 04:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== German translation ==

What does this mean: (quote from Duerrenmatt) "In der Zwielichtzone seiner Grenze siedelt sich alles Paradoxe an." I know what each individual word means, but as a whole - what is he trying to say? Can anyone help? Thanks. meinekurzebeine, 3:57, 12 April 2006

:It literally means "In the twilight zone of its border, all that is paradoxical settles" (ie, all the paradoxical/weird stuff can be found in its border zone, whatever "its" refers to in context) -- [[User:Ferkelparade|Ferkelparade]] [[User_talk:Ferkelparade|&pi;]] 08:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== english-novels ==

in english there is a novel called Chocolat, would you be so kind to tell me what is the metaphoric function of chocolate?

:This sounds like a homework question to me, but feel free to read our articles [[Chocolate]], [[Chocolat]], and [[Chocolat (film)]]. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 10:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:The chocolate is a metaphor for [[Lurpak]], which [[Joanne Harris]] couldn't use for copyright/trademark reasons. Fortunately, she was later contracted as a copywriter for them and was able to see her original vision through to completion.<!--Hello, people editing to ask WTF I'm talking about: there's a terrible advert for nasty margarine Lurpak on British TV at the moment that's a ripoff of Chocolat, hence my joke that is no good if it has to be explained.--> --[[User:Bth|Bth]] 11:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== Created a new word, a new definition.... now what? ==

Would like to know how to go about authoring a new word w/definition I thought of -- it's catchy and unique, but not copyrightable or trademarkable (according to the gov't offices in DC that handle those things) -- and what are the best ways to get it into circulation?

:Start using it. If it really is catchy it'll catch on. Obviously, the more high profile you are the more likely you are to get it into general circulation (eg see [[Dan Savage]]'s alternative meaning of [[Savage Love#Santorum|santorum]], or [[Stephen Colbert]] and [[truthiness]]). The important thing in determining whether it'll catch on is whether it expresses something that it would be useful to have a succint word for but one doesn't exist already.

:So, come on, tell us: what's the new word? --[[User:Bth|Bth]] 12:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

::[[Frindle]]? [[User:Schyler|schyler]] 12:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== What's the meaning of "gets in over his/her head"? ==

I'm not sure what this phrase means.

:It means to become involved with something you don't fully understand, and usually suggests the person who is "in over his head" has some degree of responsibility that he is unable or unwilling to relinquish despite being incompetent in the area. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 15:47, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

:What Angr said. The usual explanation is that it's related to getting into deep water. Unless you can swim well enough, you'll drown. But I don't know if that is a mere folk explanation or if it is traceable. [[User:Ande B.|Ande B]] 04:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== What is it called when you swap the first letters of words? ==

This has been driving me crazy for days ~ what is the name for swapping letters of words, i.e. mood gorning instead of good morning? thanks, Denise~~

*That's called a [[Spoonerism]]. "It is kisstomary to cuss the bride." --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710;]] 20:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

**Your example, however, is not a canonical spoonerism, as it switches the vowels rather than the initial consonants. Examples alleged to be from Spooner himself are "the queer old Dean" for "the dear old Queen" and "you have tasted two worms" for "you have wasted two terms". I like using spoonerisms as a form of euphemism, as in "It is cucking fold in here!" [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 21:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

***After British TV presenter [[Keith Chegwin]] (nickname: Cheggers) admitted to being an alcoholic, I came up with the rather wonderful (I thought) spoonerism: Cheggers can't be boozers. It seems that I was the only one who thought this was something to be proud of. Ah well. [[User:Phileas|Phileas]] 02:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

****I like it. Congratulations.

****interesting that this literary form is named after one of its perpetrators rather than some Latin/Greek root referring to the interchange of letters. Do other languages have an equivalent for "spoonerism"? [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 02:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

****yes, all I know is in German, there's something similar called a "Schuettelreim" but I'm not too sure. There's more on it here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoonerism - hope it helps. [[User: meinekurzebeine]] 4:48, 13 April 2006

**On the German wikipedia Schüttelreim links to spoonerism, but so does Buchstabendreher. Which one is correct? [[User:David Sneek|David Sneek]] 08:47, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

***Well, both, sort of. [[:de:Buchstabendreher|Buchstabendreher]] can be spoonerisms, but not necessarily, as they include letter-switching in written language. A [[:de:Schüttelreim|Schüttelreim]] is a spoonerism as a poetic technique rather than as an intentional or unintentional slip of the tongue. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 08:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be a single name in Russian. My English-Russian dictionary resorts to: ''Непроизвольная перестановка звуков''. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 14:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:One I came up with accidentally, before I'd had my morning coffee, was "I think I need a cough of cuppy." [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 21:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== Evil Sir Jasper ==

What is the meaning of the term "evil Sir Jasper"? I assume it means something like "bogeyman", but I don't know for sure. [[User:Bhumiya|Bhumiya]] ([[User talk:Bhumiya|said]]/[[Special:Contributions/Bhumiya|done]]) 22:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

== how to correctly credit wikipedia in an english paper MLA format ==

Can you please show me how to correctly cite wikipedia for an english paper I am writing? Thanks

:See [[Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia]] -- [[User:AJR|AJR]] | [[User talk:AJR|Talk]] 01:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

= April 13 =

== Is this correct spanish grammar? ==

Sorry to bother you about this, but I need you to proofread this. I modified my español babelbox so that it says the following: ''Este usuario puede apenas contribuir con un nivel básico de español, pero lo dude que puede te entender. Tiene que hacer de uso del diccionario cuando escriba.'' Is this correct grammar? I'm unsure about my use of the subjunctive, since it doesn't exist in english, and my placement of "apenas" may be wrong. If you could help me with this, that would be wonderful.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 20:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

1)'puede te entender'. If you use 'te' then it should be 'puede<u>s</u> (tu ) entender' or 'puedas entender . I feel it should be se pueda entendar (pueda -subjunctive with dude)

2)'dude' -someone doubts? Maybe ' dudo' I doubt? Don't use the subjunctive of dudar.

3)Tiene que hacer de uso del diccionario cuando escriba. -Who is communicating here? If yourself then I would say, Tengo que usar el diccionario cuando escribe.

I hope you don't mind if I post this at the <nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language|help discussion]].</nowiki> Please go there. There are gazillions of native speakers and experts better qualified.--[[User:Jondel|Jondel]] 00:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I've copied the above from my discussion page , please feel free to correct/respond. I'm not a native Spanish speaker .--[[User:Jondel|Jondel]] 00:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Here is the complete correction: ''Este usuario puede apenas contribuir con un nivel básico de español, y es dudoso que pueda entenderle. Tiene que usar un diccionario cuando escriba.'' "Entenderle" mean something like "understand you, sir or ma'am," and is more appropriate in this situation than "entenderte." The other changes were slight, more or less.--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 01:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:I'm sorry it's so ambiguous. The "puede" "dude" are supposed to be for Ello/a, not Usted, so I probably should have written that in. It's supposed to say "This user can barely contribute on a basic level of spanish, but they doubt that they can understand you. They have to use a dictionary when they write."--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 18:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::I'd say, ''Este usuario apenas puede contribuir con un nivel básico de español, pero duda de que pueda entenderte. Tiene que hacer de uso del diccionario cuando escribe.'' In fact, I wouldn't say "pero", but "por lo tanto": they can barely contribute on a basic level - ''therefore'', they can't understand you. So, ''Este usuario apenas puede contribuir con un nivel básico de español, por lo que duda de que pueda entenderte. Tiene que hacer de uso del diccionario cuando escribe'' sounds more appropriate to me.--[[User:RiseRover|RiseRover]]|[[User talk:RiseRover|^talk]] 22:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

''subjunctive [...] doesn't exist in english''. Of course the subjunctive exists in English. -[[User:Lethe/sig|lethe]] ^{[[User talk:Lethe/sig|talk]] [{{fullurl:User talk:Lethe|action=edit&section=new}} +]} 23:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:It isn't differentiated between the non-subjunctive though with prefixes or suffixes. And its usage differs from spanish.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 02:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== Chinese (Mandarin) Possesive pronouns ==

I need a pronunciation of the sentence: '''I want to see your''' shoes.

I've forgotten nearly all my vocabulary, but in regards to to possesive pronouns, they're formed by adding the particle ''de'' to the pronouns. That is, I - Wo, My - Wo.de; You - Ni, Your - Ni.de; she/he/it - Ta, hers/his/its -Ta.de. This translation is probably wrong: "Wo yao kan kan ni.de (shoes)." I think "yao" means "want" and "kan" definitely means "to see." I feel like "kan kan" would be a bit more informal: "Hey, can I see your shoes." Hopefully, someone who actually knows mandarin will post :-) --[[User:Vrkaul|Vijay]] 02:52, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:我想看看您的鞋子。([[pinyin]] (without tonal marks): wo xiang kankan ninde xiezi). [[User:Vrkaul|Vijay]] is right, the repetitive "kan kan" is of a lighter tone, something like "take a casual look".--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 03:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Maybe he could add yixia (一下) to be polite?--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 18:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:::of course, in this case.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 00:09, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

==Quoting British English in American English work==

I'm writing a thesis in American English, but I quote British works often. Are there manual of style guidelines dictating whether I should change the spellings in the British quotations or keep them as is? Do I need to indicate a spelling change?--[[User:Bkwillwm|Bkwillwm]] 06:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

: Most guidelines I've seen discourage changes of any sort to quotes. Especially with something as minor as this, I wouldn't think twice about leaving the spellings alone.--[[User:Prosfilaes|Prosfilaes]] 07:07, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with Prosfilaes, though if you want to be obnoxious about it you could put "[sic]" after every British spelling. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 07:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:::From other countries' perspectives, we are all foreigners and we all speak with an accent. An accent is not just the different way in which the same word can be pronounced, it also includes the choice of words and idioms and, in the written form of the language, the conventions about spelling and punctuation. These variants are expected from known foreigners <small>(sounds a bit like "known felons")</small>. It's all part of the deal with being a foreigner. Changing the spelling would be like asking Tom Cruise to speak like an Englishman. (well, sort of.) [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 11:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Or asking Nicole Kidman to speak like an American (''shudder''). [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 11:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::Very droll. I really loved Tom Cruise in "Eyes Wide Shut", and I'm sure he will get his Oscar ... one day. You'll hear no word against his alleged acting ability from me. :--)

:::::I should have said: ''Changing the spelling would be like asking an American actor to speak like an Englishman while playing the part of an American.'' Incongruous and crazy. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 11:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, I believe British english and American English switch definitions of "should" and "would" sometimes.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 18:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Also note that in some cases, you will need to give an American English interpretation of a British English sentence. There probably aren't too many Americans who would know what a "dual carriageway" is, for example (a divided highway). [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 20:54, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:That would be a separate exercise. The actual words used by the speaker should be sacrosanct if quotation marks are being used. [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 00:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== Western US Pronunciation of ''Want'' ==

I have immigrated to California from another country nine years ago. I would like to know whether the native Californian pronounces ''want'' as \'wänt\ (like ''father'' or ''mar'') or as \'wənt\ (like ''humdrum''). I myself think the answer is \'wənt\ because this is how ''I'' pronounce ''what'' (\'wət\) and ''wanna'' (\'wənə\).<br>Basically, is the California pronunciation of ''want'' with a long vowel or a short vowel? Or is it both like the ''a'' in ''and''. <br>Note: I have used the phonetic alphabet of Merriam-Webster.<br>[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 09:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:While there are accents of English where ''want'' is pronounced to rhyme with ''punt'' (thus IPA {{IPA|/wʌnt/}}, M-W \wənt\), to the best of my knowledge [[California English]] isn't one of them. I believe in California, as in the majority of accents of English, it is pronounced to rhyme with ''font'' (thus IPA {{IPA|/wɑnt/}}, M-W \wänt\). I don't think describing one vowel as long and the other as short is helpful in this case, though. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 09:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::I agree with Angr, though there may be some variation on this. Vowels before nasals do tend to migrate, and there are different accents in California. The best place to look is the new Labov, Ash, and Boberg, Atlas of North American English, which may be at a local university library. [[User:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]

:::Or right here at my elbow. They have very little discussion of phonemic occurrence in individual words, and don't discuss ''want'' specifically at all as far as I can tell. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 14:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::::Lucky you! They deal in word classes. There is no reason why ''want'' would vary from other words in the (ah) or maybe (a) group which will be merged with the (o) class in CA. So, if ''want'' is pronounced with a slightly raised vowel, so will other words like ''font'' ''Tom'' ''calm''. [[User:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]

:::::Well, there is a reason, namely that in some accents, ''want'' is phonemically {{IPA|/wʌnt/}}, i.e. it rhymes with that accent's pronunciation of ''punt'' but not with that accent's pronunciation of ''font''. In terms of word classes, all they deal with that's relevant to ''want'' is the [[cot-caught merger]]: if I'm right that ''want'' rhymes with ''font'' in California, both words also rhyme with ''haunt'' and ''taunt'' in California (except for San Francisco). [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 16:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

*In California, the vowels in ''law'' and ''god'', and ''father'' are the \ä\ of M-W phonetic alphabet. So you don't form an egg with your mouth for ''law''. [[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 17:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

----

The whole notion of "long" vs. "short" vowels is problematic for many English dialects, but "want" is pronounced with an unrounded and often somewhat fronted vowel which is nevertheless rather distinct from the [æ] of "cat". [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 20:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== "El Quico" ==

Hi everyone. I'm in the process cleaning up our article on Spanish anarchist/resistance fighter [[Francisco Sabaté Llopart]], but I can't find any of the many online biographies giving an English translation for his nickname "El Quico". Babelfish oh-so-helpfully supplies "The Quico". Can anyone suggest a suitable translation? Thanks! --[[User:Bth|Bth]] 12:16, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:The [[Quickie]]? The [[Quiche]]? [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 12:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:According to my Cambridge-Klett Spanish dictionary, a "toasted corn sack."--[[User:Bkwillwm|Bkwillwm]] 12:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::Two facts solve your puzzle. First, a nickname for Francisco is ''Quico'', like ''Bill'' for ''William''. Second, in Catalan and by extension, the type of Spanish spoken in Catalonia, it is normal to use an article before a given name. I'm known to friends in Barcelona as "El Michael." [[User:mnewmanqc|mnewmanqc]]

:::Ah-hah! That sounds much more plausible than the foodstuff-based ones. As such I'll just leave it untranslated. Thank you very much. --[[User:Bth|Bth]] 16:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

== Unhealthy Obsessive Dependent Love ==

There is a word in the English language for a man who is obsessively and unhealthily dependent upon his wife and his relationship with her. Or the word I'm seeking may refer to the unhealthy obsessional dependence itself. Can anybody help me remember this word?

Thanks

Tony [[User:Smithies|Smithies]] 13:00, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:[[Codependence|Codependent]]? Or [[Dependent personality disorder]]? [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 13:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::To the extent that the dependency is pecuniary, the phrase you're searching for is [[Kevin Federline]]. [[User:Jahiegel|Joe]] 16:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:[[Fidelity]]? --[[User:Samuel Blanning|Sam Blanning]]^{[[User_talk:Samuel_Blanning|(talk)]]} 00:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

==Radionica==

Serbian word. Definition?

: Workshop. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 22:34, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

==What about...==

...a giant multilanguage searchable wiktionary? Is there one? If not, what would it take to make it. I know there's an EN one and probably some others, but I don't think there's a way to search from one language to another. -[[User:LambaJan|LambaJan]] 21:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

:In the end, I think each language edition of the Wiktionary is supposed to cover all languages. You can already look up Chinese characters and kana on the English Wikitionary. For practical purposes, I doubt you will find much information on any other Wiktionary that is not also in the English Wiktionary. If there is, use an internet search engine and restrict your results to site:wiktionary.org. [[User:Wikipeditor|Wikipeditor]] 23:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

::I think the point is to be able to get from a word in English to the translation in German, eg. [[User:For great justice.|For great justice.]] 21:25, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:::You mean, not only a link from English [[wiktionary:eat]] to French [[wiktionary:manger]] and an interlanguage link from there to [[wiktionary:fr:manger]], but directly from [[wiktionary:en:eat]] to [[wiktionary:fr:manger]]? [[User:Wikipeditor|Wikipeditor]] 00:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

= April 14 =

==Classical Arabic==

On the [[Classical Arabic]] article, I tried to add arabic spellings for baḥr and ǧisr as ﺑﺂﺣﺮ and ﺟﻴﺴﺮ. Is this correct? I don't know any arabic, and I have only a basic understanding of the arabic abjad. Also, I added a consonant and vowel table a while back which was never validated, so I need that checked too.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 02:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:It's displaying in reverse order, for me. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 03:30, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:If ''baHr'' is supposed to mean "sea, river" (as in the singular of Bahrein), then it should be &#1576;&#1581;&#1585; -- [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 03:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

::It is supposed to be that.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 13:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:I'm not really sure how much validity the "silent postconsonantal final ''r''" rule really has across different pronunciations of classical Arabic, anyway... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 03:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, that whole section was added by an anon w/o sources, edited by more anons, and then fixed by some users for the sake of formatting and spelling. So, a lot of the article is unreferenced and could be total BS, so I need some help fixing it. I've been trying to add on to this article for a long time, since before I was a user, so I don't want to see it go down the drain. But I only know about the history and phonemes, I don't know anything about pronounciation. With these words, I was just trying to wikify the article.--<tt>[[User:Ikiroid/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''The'''</font>]]</tt> [[Imaginary unit|<font color="black">'''i'''</font>]][[user:ikiroid|<font color="blue">'''kiro'''</font>]][[Ego, superego, and id|<font color="black">'''id'''</font>]] <small>([[user talk:ikiroid|talk parler hablar paroli 说 話し parlar]])</small> 13:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== The opposite of 'original research' ==

What do you call research of the type that is done to compile a Wikipedia article? The type that does not include making new observations, but may involve much searching for and synthesis of information from published sources? [[User:Ike9898|ike9898]] 09:48, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:A review of the literature? [[User:Markalexander100|Henry]][[User talk:Markalexander100|^Flower]] 10:57, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

::Or text based on references. [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 13:53, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:::I think a review of the literature is the correct term. "Text based on references" isn't really accurate, because even original research has to have references and cited sources. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 14:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

::Or more specifically, "research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources". [[User:Dforest|Dforest]] 16:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

== Trying to find a specific word when the definition is known ==

Awhile ago I looked through a dictionary and found a word with a definition that I really liked. The problem is, I forgot what the word was! The definition is something like "a person who believes they should have been born in different time period than the one they live in." I think it may have started with an 'S' but I really can't remember. If anyone could help me figure out what they word was, I would truly appreciate it. Thanks a lot!

-Keith

= April 15 =

==R==

What is the rolling of r's called, like you would do in the spanish word "perro?" [[User:Schyler|schyler]] 01:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:see [[trill consonant]]--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 01:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

==Learning Irish==

can recommend any good book for learning Irish? i can't find one even in a university library... and you know how tempting Irish is to any language geek... a pity that the "Routledge Grammars" series seems to have no desire to produce one...:( --[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 02:03, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:Well, the most successful one I know of is ''Learning Irish'' by Micheál Ó Siadhail (ISBN 0300042248) , but it has the strong drawback that he teaches his local dialect rather than standard written Irish. It's the only textbook I know of that has any discussion of pronunciation at all, but the pronunciation is also that of his local dialect, and may be rather different from what you hear elsewhere, not to mention rather far removed from the spelling at times (the prepositions ''do'' "to" and ''de'' "from" are both pronounced [gə]). If you're just interested in reading and don't care about pronunciation, and don't mind a rather dry presentation, ''Progress in Irish'' by Máiréad Ní Ghráda (ISBN 0861671597) is good. Then there's ''Teach Yourself Irish'' by Diarmuid Ó Sé and Joseph Sheils (ISBN 034056492X), which includes a tape but no systematic presentation of pronunciation. Like all the other books in the modern generation of the Teach Yourself series, the focus is on listening and speaking, not on grammar. What the best book for you is depends a lot on whether you want a more "easily accessible" book that presents phrases and sentences for use in conversation, or more "scientific" book that presents paradigms and grammatical explanations for the linguistically minded. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 06:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::um... what i want is something like those in the "Routledge Grammars" series, with basic pronunciation guide and comprehensive grammar - but in the case of Irish, i guess detailed orthography is necessary ...not for real life usuage, just for geeky purpose, you know:)--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 08:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Oh, you want a reference grammar rather than a textbook. There isn't one, I'm afraid. I keep telling myself I'll write one someday. In the meantime, maybe you can track down a copy of the Christian Brothers' grammar, which has grammar information but no pronunciation guide. Or the Wikipedia articles in [[:Category:Irish language]]! [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 09:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::::thanks:), btw, is there any Irish-English dictionary with IPA?--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 12:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, the ''Foclóir Poca'' (ISBN 1857910478) gives pronunciations in a system close to IPA. Problem is, the pronunciations are artificial, intended to be easy for learners to learn, but not really reflective of the way native speakers actually pronounce the words. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 12:37, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

==Translate==

===Russian===

:С конца 1960х годов в СССР велись разработки, направленные на создание эффективного оружия для боевых пловцов Военно-Морского Флота. Работы велись в ЦНИИ Точного Машиностроения (ЦНИИТОЧМАШ) О. П. Кравченко и П. Ф. Сазоновым. К началу 1970х были теоретически и практически отработаны специальные боеприпасы для подводного огнестрельного оружия, использовавшие удлиненные невращающиеся пули с гидродинамической стабилизацией при помощи кавитационной полости, генерируемой при движении пули в воде. Пули имели вид удлиненных игл длиной порядка 20 калибров, с головной частью в виде усеченного конуса. Плоская площадка в головной части пули как раз и отвечала за создание кавитационной полости, стабилизирующей пулю при движении в воде. Первоначально были разработаны и приняты на вооружение ВМФ СССР 4.5мм патрон СПС и 4х-ствольный несамозарядный пистолет СПП-1 под эти патроны. Примерно в 1975 году на вооружение ВМФ СССР принимается комплекс оружия, состоявший из Автомата Подводного Специального АПС, разработанного конструктором В. В.

:Автомат АПС построен на основе автоматики с газоотводным двигателем и запиранием поворотом затвора. В конструкции газоотводного тракта предусмотрен автоматический газовый регулятор, обеспечивающий работу автоматики в таких разных средах как вода и воздух. Работа газового регулятора использует различия в плотности сред (вода или воздух) для автоматического сброса части пороховых газов при стрельбе на воздухе.

* From the end of 1960-ties in the USSR were conducted developments, directed towards the creation of effective weapon to combat the swimmers of Naval Fleet. The works were conducted in TSNII - CENTRAL SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INSTITUTE, Precise Machine Building, (TSNIITOCHMASH) O. P. Kravchenko and P. F. Sazonovym. At the beginning of 1970-ties, there was theoretically and in practice worked out special ammunition for underwater firearms, using elongated nonrotating bullets with hydrodynamic stabilization with the aid of cavitation, generated during the motion of bullet in the water. Bullets took the form of elongated needles with a length of 20 calibers, with the head part in the form of truncated cone. Flat area in head part of the bullet was responsible for creating the cavitation recess, which stabilizes bullet during the motion in the water. Initially they were developed and accepted to the armament VMF of the USSR 4.shchmm cartridge SPS and 4x- barrel "non-self-loading" pistol SPP-Y under these cartridges. Approximately in 1975 to the armament of VMF The USSR starts the complex of weapon, which consisted of the automaton Underwater Special APS, developed by the designer V. V.

* Automaton APS is built on the basis of automation with the gas-bleeding engine and the cutoff by the turning lock. In the construction of gas-bleeding circuit there is provided the automatic gas regulator, which ensures work of automation in such different media as water and air. The work of gas regulator uses differences in the density of media (water or air) for the automatic discharge of the part of solid-reactant gases with the shooting in air.

/// I hope this helps. Take care. Cheers, Sam [[User:82.148.120.140|82.148.120.140]] 19:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

* The sentence "Работы велись в ЦНИИ Точного Машиностроения (ЦНИИТОЧМАШ) О. П. Кравченко и П. Ф. Сазоновым." translates as:

:: "The works were conducted in TSNII - Central Scientific Research Institute, Precise Machine Building (TSNIITOCHMASH) '''by''' O. P. Kravchenko and P. F. Sazonov" (Note: the surname is Sazon'''ov''', not Sazon'''ovym''', which is the instrumental case to denote a passive construction. English has no corresponding case ending). :--) [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 01:49, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

===German===

:Aufklärungs- und Warnsysteme

:Mobile und stationäre Aufklärungs- und Überwachungsmittel

I am writing a report about [[supercavitation|supercavitating]] weapons technology, and I would like somebody that can read Russian to translate this into English for me. *big smile* Thank you. -- [[Image:Flag_of_the_United_States.svg|17px]] [[User:Mac Davis|<span style="font-family:Times;color:navy;cursor:crosshair;"><em><font color=#006600>Mac Davis</font></em></span>]]] ⌇☢ [[User talk:Mac Davis|&#xE0D;&#x19B;.]] 05:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

* Clearing-up and warning systems

* Mobile and stationary clearing-up and monitoring means

///Cheers, Sam [[User:82.148.120.140|82.148.120.140]] 20:01, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

: Well, that's seems a bit literal to me. I'd translate that as "Reconnaissance and warning systems/mobile and stationary reconnaissance and surveillance systems/methods". ("mittel" does mean "means" but that word wouldn't be used in this context. "systems" or "methods" would be better). --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 00:25, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

== More/-er ==

Why are some adjectives made [[comparative]] by adding -er (cleverer for example), while other are "more ..." (more intellegent). Why are phrases such as "more clever" or "intellegenter" not used? <font style="color:#FF1111"><u><b>s</b>murray</u></font><font style="color:#CC1111"><u>inch</u></font>[[User:Smurrayinchester/Greene|<font style="color:green">'''''e'''''</font>]]<font style="color:#CC1111"><u>ster</u></font><font style="color:#CC1111">^{([[User:Smurrayinchester|User]]), ([[User talk:Smurrayinchester|Talk]])}</font> 09:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:Long words are made comparative with 'more'; short words with 'er'. Two syllable words can go either way: I sometimes have discussions with people over whether I'm stupider than them or more stupid. (Personally I think either of these is acceptable, as is 'more clever'). [[User:Markalexander100|Henry]][[User talk:Markalexander100|^Flower]] 10:20, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:Originally, the ones with '-er' were Germanic (as still today in other Germanic languages), and the ones with 'more' were French or Latin (as a translation of French 'plus'). It just so happens that English words of French orgin have generally more syllables than Germanic ones, and so the present rule developed. The reason for this is of course that during the French rule, complicated English words went extinct and were replaced by their French counterparts, while simple, everyday English words stayed in use. --[[User:Chl|Chl]] 11:13, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::very true:)--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 22:56, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

==Shit==

A question has puzzled me for long: in Chinese the character 矢 (pinyi:shi) can mean both "arrow" and "shit" (though the more commonly used character for "shit" is 屎, also pronounced "shi"); in English we have "shit" vs. "shoot", and in German ''Schiss'' vs. ''schiessen''... is the similarity only a lovely coincidence? or the concept of excrement and flinging arrow somehow resemble each other? could you guys give some examples in other languages to illustrate the problem?--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 12:00, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I doubt it. The English and German words have the same origins, so there are only really two languages to have developed similar similarities- not a ''startling'' coincidence. [[User:Markalexander100|Henry]][[User talk:Markalexander100|^Flower]] 12:05, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:You'd have to look up the "Old Chinese" [[Bernhard Karlgren|Karlgren]]-type forms to make any conclusion about the Chinese words -- two syllables pronounced the same in modern Mandarin today can have ''very'' different pronunciations in the Chinese of 1500-2000 years ago. Meanwhile English shit and shoot come from different roots... [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 15:41, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

: Well, more than just two. All germanic lanugages have the word "shit" in some form. As for shoot, it comes from the PIE root "*skeud-", "shoot" (says etymonline), whereas "shit" is from PIE "*skheid-" (seperate). So it seems the resemblence of these two words goes pretty far back, but they're not related as far as anyone knows. "shit" is related to the verb "shed" though, and apparently through PIE to "science", which is fun :) As for the Chinese, I think it's just an interesting set of false cognates; "shit" and "shoot" being false cognates with eachother and the Chinese. Although I don't know if the Chinese words you mention are true cognates or not. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 17:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::so you can't think of any similar pair in other languages?--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 22:55, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

== Idioms ==

Hi Sir

How are you?

I am new one

and this web is very great i got alot of information and I am thankful to you

I need Idioms good idioms plz tell me

I am waiting for you reply?

thankyou <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:80.247.152.67|80.247.152.67]] ([[User talk:80.247.152.67|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/80.247.152.67|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small><!-- [Template:Unsigned] -->

:First of all, there are many people who answer questions at the reference desk, many of whom are female. I personally am doing fine. Have you read our articles [[Idiom]] and [[List of idioms in the English language]]? —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 17:36, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::I'm not sure what you are asking (''a miss is as good as a mile''). There are thousands of idiomatic expressions in English (''a good many'') and though this is only ''a ballpark figure'', the area certainly has ''an embarrassment of riches''. So this might ''fall short of'' what you are looking for but ''getting down to brass tacks'', you might find [http://www.answers.com/library/Idioms;jsessionid=x3pnfkdbw31b-cid-1741762410-sbid-lc06b this list of idioms] helpful.--[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 17:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

*The questioner could have used [[gentlehuman]]s as a salutation.[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 18:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

**How dare you assume that only humans answer questions here? I much prefer "[[gentlebeings]]". [[User:Zoe]]|[[User talk:Zoe|^(talk)]] 21:12, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::What if we are not all ''gentle''? Seriously, though, using ''Dear Sir'' as a professional greeting is not necessarily making a socio-cultural presumption that everyone here is male. Oftentimes, non-native English speakers have learned the language from older resources (just as many of us (online anyway) learn foreign languages from similarly old resources). If you look at any pre-feminist era book detailing how to write a professional communication, it will tell you to use ''Dear Sir'' as a general professional salutation. -- [[User:Akohler|Akohler]] ^{[[User talk:Akohler|Talk]]}&nbsp;^{[[Special:Emailuser/Akohler|@]]} 21:58, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

*I didn't know that non-humans were capable of contributing to Wikipedia. <br> Here ''gentle'' does not specify ''soft''. In this case,<br>

gentle = good-mannered, polite, respectful, and not rude.[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 06:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

== Me and my friend ==

Hello, all. Consider the following sentence: "Sarah introduced her father to me and my friend." All English grammar books that I have read would call this sentence "incorrect." However, is there anything really wrong with this sentence? The sentence "Me and my friend introduced ourselves to Sarah's father," is undisputedly bad grammar since ''me'' is in the objective case and is being used as the subject. Consequently, English books and teachers have always told their students to replace constructions like "Me and my friend went..." with "My friend and I went..." so that the students avoid the ''me''-as-a-subject problem. Then the books and teachers say to "put yourself last," or in other words, to make the first-person pronoun the final component of the series. Note that the books and teachers also say that the above sentence should be rewritten "Sarah introduced her father to my friend and me." Does English grammar mandate this construction? Or has it always been a method through which our English teachers tried to enstill some kind of good manners into us? Notice that the sentences "You and your friend came to the party," and "Your friend and you came to the party," are both grammatically correct.--[[User:El aprendelenguas|El aprendelenguas]] 22:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:I'd place it somewhere in between grammatical correctness and manners, along with things like capitalising ''I''. [[User:Henry Flower|Henry]][[User talk:Henry Flower|^Flower]] 23:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

::Well, the thing is some of us hear it as jarringly wrong. The easiest way I know to avoid this type of error is to take the second person out of the sentence. Like this: My sister and I went to the store. Is this correct? I went to the store--yes it must be, let's try it with me: me went to the store--now that's wrong! When I come across ''me and ___ verb...'' I hear the wrongness similar to the way every native speaker hears ''me verb...'' as wrong. And don't get me started on all the people who refuse to use me for fear they might be incorrect so they replace it with myself. Shudder. I'm going to blow up my television the next time I hear ''between you and I''. This overcorrection has got to stop. --[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 23:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree. Most people who know their English grammar still say "Sarah introduced her father to my friend and I". If they thought about it, they'd realise it is wrong grammatically, but it ''sounds'' correct because they had that lesson about ''"Don't say '''I and my friend''' but '''my friend and I'''"'' drummed into them too well. That applies in the nominative case only, but they apply it inappropriately in the objective. The problem is that this false construction is now so widespread that, to a lot of people it sounds as if ''I'm'' the one speaking bad English when I say "my friend and me" in conversation - or, it makes me sound like an aloof scholastic nerd who prefers grammatical accuracy to everyday colloquial conversational idiom. You can't win sometimes. I'm tempted to say "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" - but I'm not quite that desparate ... yet. :-) [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 01:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

==Pronouncing footballers' names==

I watch lots of [[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]] football, and I've noticed different announcers pronounce some of the names differently. I'm kind of curious - which is "correct"?

"'''C'''esc Fabregas" is Catalan; is the bolded '''C''' pronounced like '''s'''entence or '''ch'''est?

"Alexander '''Hleb'''" is Belarussian; is '''Hleb''' actually pronounced like '''Gleb'''? &ndash; [[User:Ugen64|ugen64]] 23:29, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

: Well, "Cesc" is short for "Francesc"; it's a soft 'c', which in South American Spanish is as the 's' in 'sentence'. In Castille Spanish it'd be as 'th' in 'thin'. I think (someone will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong here) that the Catalonians pronounce it the former way. I doubt it's 'ch' as in 'chest' as that would be the Italian (or Romanian) pronunciation. (Perhaps the announcers have been following the Serie A too much :)). "Hleb" is a tricky one too. The Russian letter 'х' which is usually transcribed as 'h' is gutteral, approximately the 'ch' in Scottish 'loch'. ''However'', the Belarusian 'Г' is ''also'' transcribed as 'h' and pronounced that way, as opposed to the Russian 'Г' which is transcribed and pronounced as 'g' in 'good'. (E.g. from what I understand, [[Homel]] is pronounced "Homel" in Belarusian, but "Gomel" in Russian, but spelt the same way in both) So it could be either if you only had the transliteration to go by. But the [[Aliaksandr Hleb]] article gives the Belarusian spelling as "Глеб". So you get to chose between 'Hleb' with an 'h' as in 'horse' (Belarusian style) or with a 'g' as in 'good' (Russian style). --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 00:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

::btw, how to pronounce the name of the NBA player [[Nenad Krstic]]?--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 02:14, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:: With a /ʨ/ at the end and a schwa between the "K" and "r". So "Kerstitch" approximately. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 02:38, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:::Cesc Fabregas is definitely pronounced "Sesk". I seem to remember one commentator saying Hleb means "bread". [[User:Jameswilson|Jameswilson]] 04:04, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:::: Yup, but that's the "хлеб" spelling. --[[User:BluePlatypus|BluePlatypus]] 04:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:::::As in "Мой друг Глеб ел хлеб" meaning "My friend Gleb ate bread". [[User:JackofOz|JackofOz]] 07:32, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

==Conviction==

I need a quick ID on a quote: "A man convinced against his will is of his own opinion still." I believe it's from Alexander Pope. [[User:Black Carrot|Black Carrot]] 23:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:the words ''sounds'' much more like a proverb than an [[iambic pentameter]] from Pope. [[Internal rhyme]] is common in English or German proverbs.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 02:10, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

::It's not really internal rhyme; it's two lines of iambic tetrameter:

. x . x . x . x

A man convinced against his will

. x . x . x . x

is of his own opinion still

::Which is the same meter as [[The Silence of the Lambs|"It puts the lotion on its skin / Or else it gets the hose again"]]. But back to the original question, I don't know the source of it, I'm afraid. [[User:Angr|Angr]] ([[User talk:Angr|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Angr|contribs]]) 06:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:::my bad...:p, in any case Pope usually wrote in [[heroic couplet]], so the lines are unlikely penned by him.--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 08:06, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

= April 16 =

== Comander in chief ==

Can anyone tell me how the title "Comander in Chief" came about. I know what the Comander in chief is but I want to know the origin of the title. Looks to me like "Comander and Chief" would be more descriptive. Thanks wsc

George Washington was titled "General and Commander in Chief" during the Revolutionary War. See [[Commander in Chief]] for more. [[User:Erik the Rude|Erik the Rude]] 01:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:Another context where a similar construction appears is at law--us lawyers write the "case in chief," which means the case being discussed itself, to distinguish from the cases that are being discussed as precedent to make some point. So if the phrase follows the same form (speculating here) it could mean the "commander of all", "the COMMANDER HIMSELF", as opposed to the other, lesser commanders. --[[User:Fuhghettaboutit|Fuhghettaboutit]] 01:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

==idioms wanted==

In English we call an easy job "a piece of cake", and the Japanese call it some "tea-time snack" (御茶の子, ocha'noko), are there similar idioms in other languages?--[[User:K.C. Tang|K.C. Tang]] 09:23, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

:In Czech we call it "a toy" (hračka), because even a child would be able to do such a job. [[User:Sebesta|Daniel Šebesta]] ([[User talk:Sebesta|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sebesta|contribs]]) 09:31, 16 April 2006 (UTC)