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{{Wikiproject Indian states}}
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== More comments, from FN==
In addition to my earlier comments, may I add a few more? These are being divided into inaccuracies and non-NPOV, for the sake of clarity:
===Inaccuracies===
Page terms Goa "second smallest in terms of population after Sikkim". Manorama Year Book 2003 (page 639) puts Goa at fourth-smallest by population. Sikkim has 540,493 population, Mizoram 891,058 and Arunachal Pradesh 1,091,117. Goa has 1,343,998. I guess these might be 1991 or 2001 Census figures, not sure. But it still wouldn't make a difference. Perhaps your assumption is based on the situation before Mizoram and Arunachal Pradesh were upgraded from union territories to statehood?
* sizable Eurasian population
This could well be a bit of a myth. How sizable is sizable? 3%? 10%? To my knowledge the bulk of Goa's Catholics, despite the Portuguese sounding names, are local converts.
Panaji, Panjim ... the spelling for the state-capital keeps changing at different points of the essay. Again, noting all its names would also help!
Should you refer to the Portuguese "enclave" or "enclaves", considering that there were more than one pocket (Goa, Daman, Diu, Dadra, Nagar Haveli...) scattered near and around western India?
Terecol is a Portuguese spelling, hardly ever used now-a-days. While I have nothing particular against Portuguese or Lusitanised spellings (unlike some of my other contemporaries), I think either the current official name should be given, or, alternatively, a general point could be made that a number of places have multiple spellings in different languages. For the official spellings, one could refer to the Gazetteer. But this is not the last word either, since quite a few names are referred to differently in the popular, spoken jargon!
There is considerable climatic differences among the diverse regions of this small state. One could argue that the official temperatures, recorded probably at Altinho in the state capital don't fully reflect this diversity.
* Pesticides, fertilisers, tyres, tubes... these are not manufactured in the small scale, but rather in medium to large scale industries.
* In the "government and politics" section, I now see you've mentioned Panaji and Panjim. Why not be fair to all and include the Konkani Ponn'je and the Portuguese Pangim too? One is used by many, and the other was used over a long period of time.
* Ruling party doesn't need the "most number of seats" in the assembly, but needs to ensure that it is not defeated by the majority in the House. There is a subtle but significant difference here. Just for argument, if the main party has just 10 seats in the 40-seat assembly, every other grouping has less and the Opposition can't unite to oust the government, theoretically it could still remain in power! Just an illustration to drive home my point.
* The Governor's role is largely ceremonial, but (s)he plays a crucial role when it comes to deciding who should form the next government -- as events for at least the past decade-and-half have shown in instability-prone Goa.
* Two other parties in the assembly now are the United Goans Democratic Party and the Nationalist Congress Party. Small in size, with at best three legislators elected on their symbol (in the UGDP case, less for NCP), they've nonetheless played a significant role in Goa's politics.
* "In many parts of India, the term Goanese is used instead of Goan".
In the coloured postings made by some earlier, the point about the above got lost. As it stands, the statement is inaccurate and incomplete.
Perhaps a more suitable rendering would be: "Goans are sometimes referred to as 'Goanese', but a section of the population is known to take offence to being called this term, and prefer the use of 'Goan'." My point is that the "many parts of India" might be inaccurate. Also, this appelation is often used out of ignorance rather than malice, as was made out to be earlier!
* Goa's Catholic population should be closer to 26.5% if one recalls right, going by the 2001 census.
* Two seats to the Lok Sabha (lower house), but you've not mentioned one seat in the Rajya Sabha (upper house).
* Celebrations for all festivals usually last for a few days and include parties and Celebrations for all festivals usually last for a few days and include parties and balls. >>> This is way off! You're mixing up religious and cultural events. The section of culture could do with some re-working.
* Mediterranean style architecture.>>> a more-acceptable term in usage is "Indo-Portuguese" architecture, suggesting the fusion of two cultures...
===Non-NPOV===
* Portuguese admiral Afonso de Albuquerque defeated the ruling Bijapur kings on behalf of a local sovereign, Timayya l
This is a mischevious to show a colonial endeavour as a sub-contract for a local ruler. While the role of Timayya in suggesting that the Portuguese attack Goa (for his own reasons, in a power-play) is well documented, to use language to suggest that Albuquerque defeated the local ruler "on behalf of a local sovereign" is surely not NPOV. Was Timayya a "local sovereign"? I'm not sure...
There is some historical evidence to suggest that migration of people from Goa to Mangalore and Kerala also happened before the Portuguese or "Muslim" rulers set up base in Goa. This perhaps needs to be cross-checked. To explain the migration as due to Portuguese religious intolerance may be politically correct (and convenient) nowadays, but not very inaccurate.
* Using words like "notorious" to describe political instability might be a value judgement. Are stable governments always good? Isn't instability a built-in possibility in a parliamentary system?
*** Konkani </wiki/Konkani> is the state language. Marathi </wiki/Marathi>,
the state language of neighbouring Maharashtra </wiki/Maharashtra>, is
spoken by many Hindus who adopted it as a symbol of rejection of
Portugal. English </wiki/Indian_English> also is widely spoken by many
residents, especially among the Christian </wiki/Christian> population.
Portuguese </wiki/Portuguese_language> is still spoken as a secondary
language in some areas, among certain sections of the Goan population,
and especially among some of the state's senior citizens ? more
particularly, in the city-district of Fontainhas in the capital.
Language -- because of conflicting perspectives among different caste and community groups in Goa -- is a very controversial issue here. The above chapter reflects extreme non-NPOV and bias against sections on ground of their language used. It is also inaccurate! ("Marathi... is spoken by many Hindus." They don't speak it much in Goa, but prefer it for cultural. literary and their religious activities, for a whole complex set of reasons.)
If given the chance, I would have framed it thus: Following the end of Portuguese rule, the most widely used languages are Konkani in the world of speech, and English and Marathi for official, literary or educational purposes. Language is a controversial issue in Goa, over which an agitation was fought between two contending pro-Konkani and pro-Marathi camps between 1985-87. After the agitation ended in 1987, a complex formula grants 'official language' status to Konkani, while Marathi is also allowed to be used "for any or all official purposes". But the law is difficult to implement, in part because every "official purpose' for which a language is to be used needs to be notified; and given the rivalry between groups supporting the two languages, this would probably result in a stalemate as it has. Besides, officialdom and other sections might be reluctant to move away from the current status quo. Most students in Goa complete their high school through the English medium. But primary school is largely run in Marathi (in government) and Konkani (in private, but government-aided schools). Portuguese, the earlier language of the elite, has been hit by shrinking numbers, though a small section still prefer it as the medium for discourse at home, while even a few Portuguese books have been published in recent years. Goa was home to the last Portuguese daily newspaper published in Portuguese, till 1983, when the 1900-founded 'O Heraldo" switched to being published in English, in part due to dwindling readership. Youngsters have possibilities of studying Portuguese, if interested, both as part of the school curriculum (as a third language, in some schools) or through classes in the main towns, which have stepped up activity after the normalisation of Indo-Portuguese relations. Goa University also offers bachelor and Master's degrees in Portuguese, though there are only a few students going in for this specialisation.
* ... Hindus "who built their temples in European style"... Can you imagine a temple in "Western style"? I think in the attempt to squeeze through a non-NPOV, and show that Goa has close links with the Portuguese, such inaccuracies have crept in. It would not be wrong to say that some influences from the Portuguese are visible in some of Goa's temples. This topic has been written on by better qualified people like architect Pravin Sabins.
* Football </wiki/Football_%28soccer%29> is Goa's most popular sport with
cricket a close second. Though popular, cricket does not enjoy the same
frenzy that has gripped the rest of India >>> Can I smell traces of the 'we are different from the rest of India' logic here, or am I just being paranoid?
Firstly, to talk about the "rest of India" is a gross simplification; every part of India has its own diversity. Undeniably, football is very popular in significant parts of Goa, and half of the top 12 teams on the Indian national football league are from Goa (currently, and Dempo's has just won the league). But there's a POV creeping in for anyone who knows.
Perhaps what might be more closer to the picture is: "Football is widely popular in Goa, particularly around Margao where the main football stadium, at the Fatorda locality and named after Jawaharlal Nehru, is based. Football is also played in local fields, during the non-monsoon, non-planting season, particular in central coastal Goa. In recent decades, a growing influence of cricket is visible, in large part fuelled by the massive coverage this sport gets on national television, thus making an impact even in a part of South Asia which hardly had any contact with the British Empire".
[Salgaocars, the football team, is misspelt as Salgaokar. Names of Sporting Clube de Goa, a newish team which narrowly missed winning the national football league on the past weekend, has been missed....Is it fair to suggest that Goa has just one football stadium? What about Vasco and Duler-Mapusa, and the many smaller fields or grounds that are played on in season?]
===Needing to be added===
It might help to include all the four different names used for the state-capital: Panaji (official, post 1961), Pangim (the Portuguese term), Panjim (used mostly by English speakers) and Ponn'je (the verbal name used by almost every Konkani speaker of the widely spoken local language). Multiple place names for Goan places (because of the multiplicity of languages used in the region) do cause confusion. For instance Bicholim and Dicholi are the same place. Nothing to do with the "as the Indians say" explanation, but the use of multiple languages by different segments of the population.
Something could be said about air connections, number of flights per day, crowding of the airport in the afternoons, direct charter flights from Europe, plans to build a new airport at Mopa (likely to take quite some time), etc.
* Western English songs have a large following in most parts of Goa. Traditional Konkani folk songs too have a sizable following. Manddo, the traditional Goan music which originated in the nineteenth century, is sung and danced on special English songs have a large following in most parts of Goa. >>> This is an inadequate description of a complex subject.
* Food section seems inadequate.
* Flora and fauna could be fleshed out into a larger section.
* In media section, the Marathi and Konkani papers have been left unnamed. Likewise, there are three local cable-news firms -- Goa365 (English), Goa Newsline and Goa Plus (both Konkani) -- that broadcast each evening, and have a good and growing audience. Goa also has a fairly high presence in cyberspace, and this is significant for a small state.
* I'm not sure just two schools are run by the ICSE board. In fairness, it could also be stated that the "private" schools are actually, in almost all cases, government funded.
* External links section could be improved. Too small for a state which has been active in cyberspace since the mid-1990s. Not sure if http://www.goa-world.com is included. [[User:Fredericknoronha|fredericknoronha]] 21:18, 22 May 2005 (UTC))
Thanks for your critical analysis of the text. I've dealt with most of your objections below:
'''Fixed'''
*Population statistics that Goa is the fourth smallest
* Terekhol River
* Small scale --> medium scale
* Rajya Sabha seat was already mentioned
* NCP and UGDP parties
* Governor's role
* Fixed the support of a simple majority for legislators
* I've split the media and education sections and inserted the topic on medium of instruction and cable channels.
* Salgaocar
* Mediterranean to Indo-Portuguese style
* Text on sports such as football
* Temple architecture... Portuguese influences on temples
'''Not addressed'''
* On the climate issue, most of Goa is situated on level ground close to the sea. Due to the state's proximity to the sea, lack of elevation in densely populated places and small area, the temperature difference wouldn't be more that 5/6 °C. (A note on the elevated regions is already mentioned there)
* Size of Goa's religious statistics. A credible source (URL) is needed to reference it.
* use of "notorious". A government a year is not a good sign for democracy.
* The names of Panaji would be more suited for the city article itself. Since Panjim is widely in use as an English word, the name should be added since this is the English wikipedia. The buck should stop here regarding the names.
* Exclaves is the correct term
* Use of "Goanese" and "parts of India". In Sikkim and northern West Bengal, the term Goan is unheard of. As its stands, its neither a POV nor fiction.
* ''migration of people from Goa to Mangalore'' – no resources found
* ''Portuguese admiral Afonso de Albuquerque defeated the ruling Bijapur kings on behalf of a local sovereign, Timayya'' – further debate needed.
* Information on vernacular newspapers. -- no sources as of now
I would also request you to [[Wikipedia:Be Bold]] and directly add missing content to the page. <font color="#0082B8">=[[user:Nichalp|Nichalp]] ([[User Talk:Nichalp|Talk]])=</font> 11:43, May 23, 2005 (UTC)
== Unanswered questions ==
Not knowing anything about the subject, I was left with the following questions after reading this article:
* Which is the "left bank" of the Mandovi River? Can we find a less ambiguous term?
* What does it mean for Mumbai to be the "judicial capital"? Is that term used in the region? What's up with the [[Bombay High Court]]? That article doesn't seem to explain the extraterritorial jurisdiction weirdness. Is that due to Goa's special historical status, or does is this a national court? Does Goa have a highest state court with state-specific jurisdiction, like a U.S. state does?
* What is meant by the "British Indian model of civil laws framed for different religions"? Is there a convenient article to link to that might explain this?
-- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 1 July 2005 03:04 (UTC)
#In geographical terms, a "left bank" is named with respect to the flow of the river. [[WP:BB|Be Bold]] and change it to something clearer.
# In India each state usually has its own High Court, the highest court in the state. However many small states in India come under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring state's High Court (High courts in most states are named after the capital city). The High Court in this case, the Bombay High Court, is situated in Mumbai, the capital of Goa's northern neighbour [[Maharashtra]]. The Court however, has a bench (a permanent branch) at Panaji, the administrative capital of Goa. The appointment of judges and registering of lawyers in the bar council are done in Mumbai. The national court, the highest court in India is the [[Supreme Court of India]]. I however, cannot offer you an explaination as to why Goa does not have an exclusive High Court. (Perhaps the area is too small?)
# There are two kinds of laws in India (like in most countries). One for criminal cases and the other for civil cases. The criminal cases are uniform throughout the country (except for [[Jammu and Kashmir]], where it does not apply). Civil cases dealing in marriage, divorce, inheritance, adoption, property disputes etc. are not uniform throught the country. For each religion, specific laws are framed. For example a Christian is not allowed to be the adopted parent of a child in India, though he may be a guardian. OTOH, a Hindu can be the non-biological parent. Another example is the inheritance laws in India, different for each religion. In Uttar Pradesh, the shariat is also brought into action.
#*Now Goa is the only state in India which has a [[Uniform Civil Code]] (inherited from the Portuguese) that governs its citizens. This means that the civil law applies equally to all its citizens and there is no exclusive law for each religion.
#*During the framing of the Constitution of India, it was mentioned that the country should seek a Uniform Civil Code. But the lack of political will and vociforous protests from Muslim organisations, and to a smaller extent by Christian organisations, means that the issue is put on a back burner. The Supreme Court too has recommended a UCC.
[[user:Nichalp|<font color="#0082B8">=Nichalp</font>]] [[User Talk:Nichalp|<font color="#0082B8">«Talk»=</font>]] July 1, 2005 07:39 (UTC)
== Sizeable eurasian population?? ==
I seriously doubt that goa has a sizeable eurasian population. If the person who's written this is talking about the "bhatkars" then they were just brahmin converts and nothing else. And which "priveledged caste" are we talking about ? the one which existed for thousands of years in India ?
I think we should stop writing stories and focus on plain facts. [[User:Leningrad|Leningrad]]
:# Please use the '''+''' to post a new topic. By convention, all new posts are at the bottom.
:#The Portuguese had the tendancy to intermarry with the locals wherever they went. :#[[User:Frederic Noronha]], a noted Goan writer has checked this page, and so too other Goan locals. I don't think it is still wrong. Please discuss, before removing large amounts of text and creating a gaping hole in the history.
{{User:Nichalp/sg}} 11:49, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
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