Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of places blurred out on Google Maps and Silverberg family: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 00:36, 11 June 2007

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{{Notability|fiction|date=May 2007}}

===[[List of places blurred out on Google Maps]]===

{{in-universe}}

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:{{la|List of places blurred out on Google Maps}} – <includeonly>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of places blurred out on Google Maps|View AfD]])</includeonly><noinclude>([[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 April 12#{{anchorencode:List of places blurred out on Google Maps}}|View log]])</noinclude>

The Silverberg family is a family of renoun military strategists from [[Konami]]'s [[Suikoden]] series of games. Among the characters listed are also those who have close ties to the Silverberg family.

The list is an [[WP:SYN|original synthesis of material]] intended (one supposes) to support a claim of censorship by Google. None of the bits of information is [[WP:RS|reliably sourced]]. As far as [[WP:V|verifiability]] goes, some entries, such as [http://maps.google.com/maps?z=17&ll=52.248594,4.439646&t=k the one in the Netherlands], are pretty clearly manipulated, but others, such as [http://maps.google.com/maps?z=17&ll=41.178646,-72.20673&t=k the one on the Plum Island], are not obviously so. What standards are being used to define "blurred"? Entries are being added here according to whose [[WP:NPOV|point of view]]?

In the ''Suikoden III'' manga, Caesar Silverberg attributes the countless successful strategists who have emerged from the Silverberg family as a result not only of the family passing down their teachings to a subsequent generation, but also because of each tactician's own personality traits. Throughout the course of history in Suikoden, the Silverberg family have been known to be heralds of change because of their involvement in nearly all the conflicts which have occurred.

This topic is clearly of current interest to certain people following the New Orleans incident. The article is linked [[Special:Whatlinkshere/List of places blurred out on Google Maps|from nowhere]]&mdash; I came across it from a [[Reddit]] [http://reddit.com/info/1ha6e/comments submission] which is an obvious exhortation to create a piece of original research. I suggest moving the list to a relevant blog or site such as [[GoogleWatch]]. Wikipedia is surely [[Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files|NOT]] a corporate watchdog. <span style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User talk:Kaustuv|Kaustuv Chaudhuri]]</span> 12:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Members of the Silverberg family frequently occupy the Tenki Star, the Star of Wisdom, amongst the [[108 Stars of Destiny (Suikoden)|108 Stars of Destiny]], which is the star assigned to the primary tactician of the hero or the Chikai Star, the Chief Star of Earth, which is assigned to the secondary tactician of the story.

* '''Strong keep'''. This list is fascinating; it suggests business and political patterns that would be very hard to see without it. [[User:Peepeedia|Peepeedia]] 17:27 PDT, 12 April 2007

==Julian Silverberg==

* '''Strong delete'''. This is definately listcruft. [[User:68.13.147.241|68.13.147.241]] 12:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

A legendary strategist who helped Karnach Rugner, ancestor of [[Barbarossa Rugner]], become independent from [[Harmonia]] without any bloodshed, creating the Scarlet Moon Empire more than 200 years ago.

==Elenor Silverberg==

*'''Strong delete'''. The places keep chaning, no point keeping an updated list and the matrerial is not notable. --[[User:Cyktsui|Cyktsui]] 12:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Elenor Silverberg is the earliest known Silverberg since Julian himself. She was originally tactician for the Scarlet Moon Empire, but she was banished due to the actions of her subordinate, Graham Cray.

** [[List of national leaders]] is an updated list. Do we delete that one to? :-) --[[User:83.131.103.18|83.131.103.18]] 14:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep it''' - This is after all a 'Free' encylcopedia. This is simply a list of places on Google's Map service that have not fully appeared or completely edited out. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[Special:Contributions/129.49.251.19|129.49.251.19]] ([[User talk:129.49.251.19|talk]]) 12:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

After this she headed south into the Island Nations where she settled on Hermitage Isle with her new apprentice, Agnes. She was recruited by the Island Nation Forces after hearing of Graham Cray's involvement and she eventually lead the army to victory against the Kooluk Forces. After the final battle she confront Graham Cray at the top of Fort El-Eal to question his actions which lead to his flight from the Scarlet Moon Empire and her exile. Fort El-Eal was destroyed in a massive explosion shortly after and it is believed that it was here that Elenor lost her life.

*'''Keep''' first of all, this is not [[WP:OR]]. It advances no claims based on any synthesis. I don't see 'censorship' mentioned anywhere on the page. This is a list. - [[User:f-m-t|Francis Tyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 13:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Elenor appears in [[Suikoden IV]].

:* '''Comment:''' According to [[Wikipedia:List_guideline]], "Inclusion on the list should be based on what reliable sources say, not on what the editor interprets the source to be saying." There are no sources for defining what "blurred out" means. Further more, in general, a "list of X" should only be created if X itself is a legitimate encyclopedic topic that already has its own article. The topic of this list is not notable, is not sourced, and is not linked to by another article. [[User:68.13.147.241|68.13.147.241]] 13:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

==Leon Silverberg==

*'''Delete''' To the above anon poster please keep [[WP:ABOUTEVERYTHING|this]] in mind. While Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia, it is [[WP:NOT|not an indiscriminate collection of information]]. That being said, this article is definitely [[WP:OR|OR]]. There are no verifiable sources for this information. Perhaps an article detailing why these places are blurred would provide context and provide notability. --[[User:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="8B 00 00">Cy</font><font color="B2 22 22">ru</font><font color="DC 14 3C">s</font></font>]] [[User talk:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="DC 14 3C">An</font><font color="B2 22 22">dir</font><font color="8B 00 00">on</font></font>]] 13:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The current head of the Silverberg family, the uncle of Odessa and Mathiu Silverberg, whom he took care of after the death of their parents, and grandfather of Albert and Caesar Silverberg. He appears in [[Suikoden I]] and [[Suikoden II]].

:'''Comment''' As a list, it must adhere to this policy from [[WP:ATT]]. ''The attribution policy states that "articles should contain only material that has been published by reputable sources. Editors should therefore provide references.''" Also, from [[WP:LIST]] ''Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources''. To say that you found thse places on your own and created the list constitutes [[WP:OR|OR]]. And finally, what asserts the notability of this list? --[[User:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="8B 00 00">Cy</font><font color="B2 22 22">ru</font><font color="DC 14 3C">s</font></font>]] [[User talk:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="DC 14 3C">An</font><font color="B2 22 22">dir</font><font color="8B 00 00">on</font></font>]] 13:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

::* Let me point out [[List of New Order Jedi characters]]. Is there a reliable source listing all of the New Order Jedi? As for notablity, yes, I can't prove it notable since I don't quite understand how would I prove that. How do you prove lack of notability that you state is evident? --[[User:83.131.103.18|83.131.103.18]] 14:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:::'''Comment''' From [[WP:NOTABILITY]]. Notable is defined as "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice." You have no articles or sources that point out these blurs or explaion the reasons for them. You do not assert in the article why this information is important. As you do not have sources and you cannot explain why this article is worthy of being noticed, you have not met the notability requirements. --[[User:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="8B 00 00">Cy</font><font color="B2 22 22">ru</font><font color="DC 14 3C">s</font></font>]] [[User talk:Cyrus Andiron|<font face="Elephant"><font color="DC 14 3C">An</font><font color="B2 22 22">dir</font><font color="8B 00 00">on</font></font>]] 14:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

::::'''Comment''' [[List of inhabited islands of Croatia]] has exactly one link from main namespace: link from [[List of islands of Croatia]]. And it is a featured list. So I presume the number of links is not a problem since this article could be very nicely be linked from [[Google Maps]] article (I won't link it myself because of [[WP:POINT]]). As for importance, I have in numerous times tried to find a list of this kind on the web. That is the primary reason behind the creation of this article: I would like to check this article from time to time to see if some new blurs popped out. Now, for me, this article is quite notable... but, of course, I am aware that for you it might not be. We'll se what closing admin has to say... --[[User:83.131.103.18|83.131.103.18]] 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' This is encyclopedic information and deleting it would be removing value from Wikipedia - [[User:Ericpaulson|Ericpaulson]] 13:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' classic original research. The last time this came up, I mentioned that it's no different than an article called [[List of houses on Google Maps with lots of cars parked in the front yard]] and other assorted wonders of useless information people could theoretically drum up looking at Google Maps. The problem here is that it's basically original research. Wikipedians care... but the information they're generating might be quite misleading. --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 13:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

**For example, as someone showed in the Digg thread, the russian image is... drumroll please... an empty field. It's just a photographical error in the Google Maps image. --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 13:30, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

* '''Keep''' - I'm the creator of the list so I obviously think it is notable, etc. Now, let me comment on the nomination:

** This list was not made to support a claim of censorship by Google, it was made to list places censored by Google. Just as [[List of minor Star Wars bounty hunters]] was not made to support claim that Star Wars fans have no life, but to list minor Star Wars bounty hunters.

** Every link to google maps is reliably sourced by a link to the google maps. Now, I happen to be a student of both computer science and philosophy, so you will have to trust me on this one: links to blurs on google maps indeed provide links to blurs on google maps. And, blurs on google maps are reliable sources that confirm existance of blurs on google maps. Just trust me on that.

** As for definition of "blur"... since when is problem with one image a reason to delete the whole list? :-)

** New Orleans incident? Sorry, never heard of it. I have been collecting this links as they appeared on reddit for some time now. I decided to publish it in this moment by pure chance.

** As for the original research... now, what exactly is original research here? The fact that there is no published work that lists this blurs? Is there an published work which lists minor Star Wars bounty hunters? --[[User:83.131.103.18|83.131.103.18]] 14:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

***Since this entire article is based on Wikipedians looking at something and drawing conclusions, the more correct analogy would be [[list of shots in Star Wars that are blurry]]. That could all be "reliable sourced" to the minute/second where the shot occurs in the DVD or whatever, which are published works. --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 14:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

****Exactly. And what is the problem with that? If you provide the instant in which it appears, where is the problem? --[[User:83.131.103.18|83.131.103.18]] 14:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*****"That something is 100% true does not automatically mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia" ([[WP:NOT]]). One problem is these aren't even 100% true items, they're just Wikipedian's observations, which can be wrong (i.e. the russian image was not actually "blurred out" but an equipment error more likely). Even if the random Wikipedian is probably right in his observation... it's a fact with no reliable statement of context, explanation or significance possible. To group such tidbits together, be they the number of cars a Wikipedian sees in a front yard or the existence of a supposed blur, seems like an indiscriminate, or at least problematic, collection of information. --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:* '''Comment:''' Let me try and address some of your points.

::* Your reasoning is incredibly circular. You cannot say it wasn't made to make a claim about censorship when you say it lists places censored by google. Regardless, this is not the reason for deletion.

::* The links themselves don't constitute a source, circular reasoning again.

::* The definition of blur is important because inclusion on a list MUST be backed up by reliable sources that say "this is a blur". Since there is none, how can you have a list?

::* Reddit discussions don't really make it for notability.

::* Yes, there are works that list minor Star Wars bounty hunters in the forms of the countless Star Wars novels and such. This list has no such source and is infact nothing but original research. Your very admission for the reason you created this article is evidence that this is nothing BUT original research. For more detailed information please read [[WP:OR]]. [[User:68.13.147.241|68.13.147.241]] 14:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Leon is well-known throughout the world as a genius strategist and was involved in many wars, including the Succession War, the Toran Liberation Wars, and Dunan Unification Wars. He lives by his strategic maxim of "ending war as fast as possible with the fewest casualties", using whatever means necessary, regardless of the morality of it, and regardless of who will win the war. His philosophy is shared by his grandson, Albert.

* '''Delete''' - original researchish synthesis stuff. It's little more than "HAY GUSY IS AW TIHS STUF ON GOGGLEMAPS ADN IT WAS BLURRRY!!1" -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|&#9998;]] 14:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

**There is no need for that kind of mockery. [[WP:AGF|Assume]] that the creators and editors of the article have good intentions, even if you think it fails to meet Wikipedia's inclusion guidelines. <span style="white-space:nowrap">— [[User talk:Kaustuv|Kaustuv Chaudhuri]]</span> 14:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As a strategist, he is responsible for the Kalekka Incident which legitimized Scarlet Moon Empire's act of war against Jowston. During the Gate Rune Wars, Leon acted as tactical advisor for the Toran Liberation Army and aids them in ending the war. During Suikoden II, he is requested to become the strategist of the Highlands by [[Jowy Atreides]] (Jowy Blight). He aids the Highland until its defeat at the end of the Dunan Unification War.

* '''Keep''' I think it can be safely agreed that Google has no interest in blurring these locations beyond complying with whatever anti-spying regulations there are in place. As such, this list provides an important (and interesting) insight. Furthermore, the article should be renamed. The satellite images listed in this article are ''not'' all "blurred", but they are ''digitally manipulated'' in some way. The Plum Island example looks more like a [[median filter]] to me. [[User:Rufous|Rufous]] 14:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

==Mathiu Silverberg==

*'''Keep''', though the article needs a lead paragraph or two explaining why this is significant. [[User:Bryan Derksen|Bryan Derksen]] 15:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Mathiu Silverberg is the brother of Odessa and nephew of Leon, and is a well known strategist. He is also the mentor of strategists Shu and Apple. Mathiu's tactical philosophy contrasts with his uncle's, where upon Mathiu believes that the method is more important that achieving the end goal as quickly as possible. He appears in [[Suikoden I]].

**Such a paragraph, by the admission of the people who wrote the article, could only say "These are links to things random Wikipedians think are blurs, or possibly equipment malfunctions, or maybe median filtered". Do we really want to put that in an article? --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 16:29, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. A clear example of [[WP:OR|original research]]. Satellite images aren't perfect, how can we be 100% sure that one particular place is actually censored, or just an unintended glitch in the image? This potential for inaccuracy is exactly why we have policies against original research. [[User:Krimpet|Krimpet]] ([[User talk:Krimpet|talk]]/[[Wikipedia:Editor review/Krimpet|review]]) 15:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Making assumptions as to what the intentions of the article's contributors are is pretty pointless - but that doesn't excuse the fact that it ''is'' [[WP:OR]]. As mentioned above, there are no sources to indicate whether these are software/imaging glitches, intentional blurrings, or so on. I've seen Google Maps images that were blurred due to high clouds - should I plop those on to this list as well? Remember, Wikipedia is [[WP:NOT]] a collection of loosely related topics, and "Hey, it's a blurry spot on the picture" is a pretty vague relationship as any. It may be "neat" or "interesting" but neither of those are valid inclusion criteria. [[User:Arkyan|<b><font color="#0000FF">Ar</font><font color="#3535CF">ky</font><font color="#6060BF">an</font></b>]] &#149; [[User_talk:Arkyan|^(talk)]] 15:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', it needs work, but it is informative, and it is not original research because it simply collects existing information. --[[User:Lost.goblin|Uriel]] 16:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Wikipedia is a wiki, but it's not ''your'' wiki. If someone wanted to do a list of blurred out areas on Google Maps they could have started their own wiki. --[[User:SeanO|SeanO]] 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' Fascinating, but the topic has apparently not been covered anywhere else, and therefore fails to meet notability criteria. [[User:Clayoquot|Kla'quot]] 17:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', rename, and expand.<s>'''Delete'''</s> Before checking out all the areas, be aware that the Google Earth article notes that a record is kept of every IP address that calls up imagery of high security areas. There really are places which might be considered of national security importance which have the tops masked off and the surrounding area filled with a seeming impenetrable forest of trees which are not there in photos and other aerial shots of the places. This list is also very selective. If it were referenced to an article somewhere about the phenomenon it would be an ok article. This topic is also dealt with in [[Google Earth]] in the section "National security and privacy issues." That section and this article could also include [http://www.ogleearth.com/2006/04/sweden_plays_hi.html] which shows how one country covers high security areas with fake impenetrable forests. Google in this case provides the undoctored image, so the article might better be more broadly cast as "Censorship of online aerial images." See also [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/13/wgoogle13.xml] , [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6331033.stm] , [http://www.ogleearth.com/2006/01/yes_we_have_no.html] , [http://www.ogleearth.com/2006/04/some_dutch_site.html] , [http://www.mcwetboy.net/maproom/2005/09/google_earth_pr_1.php] , [http://www.ogleearth.com/2007/02/india_censorshi.html] , and [http://www.ogleearth.com/2007/02/did_vint_cerf_j.html].[[User:Edison|Edison]] 18:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' I do, however propose deleting this article for all reasons stated above. I thought these things went under "discussions"?

*'''Keep'''. A Google search for "Google maps blurred" returns nearly 1 million hits, a large portion of which are discussion of this phenomenon. Refeneces to some of this discussion could easily be added. I'd suggest adding a list of formerly "blurred" areas--the White House and Capitol were blurred but no longer are, while the VP's residence remains blurred. I'd suggest renaming the article "List of places on Google Maps with locally reduced resolution". I'm still confused about why a primary source document, Google maps themselves, do not count as a source. [[User:Craigbutz|Craigbutz]] 20:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:* '''Comment''': Wikipedia's guidlines for lists says that the list entries must be vetted against a source that can constitute what membership in the list entails. I've not seen a source which describes what a "blur" is. Is it a sat error, censorship, dust on the negative, etc? Also, a list of places with locally reduced resolution isn't going to help. How much is fairly reduced? How big is locally? What if the area simply is old low res imagery, not reduced by some accident, omission, or censorship? What about the fake forests, that's not really reduced resolution? Who decides all this? You? This is why the maps themselves are not sufficient in any way as a source. [[User:68.13.147.241|68.13.147.241]] 22:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - appears to be the very definition of Original Research, as admitted by the words of the article creator above. - [[User:Richard Rundle|fchd]] 20:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - It's completely pointless. [[User:OverloadUT|OverloadUT]] 20:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - Useful information, even if it tends to change. [[User:Pmppk|pmppk]] 20:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - We don't want you to know about this. --[[User:129.93.65.92|129.93.65.92]] 21:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', rename and expand. This article should be kept, but expanded upon to include places thought to be intentionally altered to prevent viewing on Google Earth. This should include but not be limited to "blurring," adding trees, or any other digital manipulation. I was actually looking for this information the other day (out of curiousity), and an expanded list would be both noteworty, citeable (with various discussions, and from Google itself), and NOR. [[User:Tlm2021|tlm2021]] 21:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:* '''Comment''': "thought to be intentionally altered" is not encyclopedic. What someone "thinks" is irrelevant. This article doesn't know what it wants to be. Is it a place for "blurs"...for censorship...for satellite errors...who knows? The fact is, you can find many sources on the internet with speculation on what these and other things on sat imagery may or may not be...but I have seen NOTHING in the way of a source that speaks to the true reason of any observed abnormality. As it stands, a source that defines what a "blur" constitutes would be needed to vet the entries on this list. An entry on a list is not its own source. [[User:68.13.147.241|68.13.147.241]] 22:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' Not the best list there is but still useful. --[[User:Svetovid|Svetovid]] 22:08, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' A lot of arguments made on this page fall under the "it is useful" category (some of the delete arguments are not very helpful either). This is not an argument for keeping an article. Finding inconsistencies on Google Maps is original research. As it stands now the article makes ridiculous claims like blurring being caused by water on the lens, but even if non sense like that were cleaned up we would still have a list of things people found on Google Earth this is not encyclopedic content. The subject of censorship on Google Maps is covered in the main article, if this is such a prevalent issue I would be not opposed to a fork and a new page called [[Censorship on Google Maps]] or some such. --[[User:Daniel J. Leivick|Daniel J. Leivick]] 22:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' or move to Wikisource. I don't see this as original research. Each claim is clearly cited to Google Maps, which I'm sure is used as a primary source for other articles. Most of the links on this page are also very clearly blurred intentionally. Lincoln Labs is pixelated [http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=52.082605,4.302971&spn=0.001629,0.003111&t=k&om=1]. The dutch ones are even-more-obviously distorted, (blurred based on a [[Voronoi tesselation]] of random points) [http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&z=18&ll=52.082605,4.302971&spn=0.001629,0.003111&t=k&om=1]. [[User:BenFrantzDale|—Ben FrantzDale]] 22:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

:* As pointed out earlier, according to [[Wikipedia:List_guideline]], "Inclusion on the list should be based on what reliable sources say, not on what the editor interprets the source to be saying." It doesn't matter what you feel is obvious, items for inclusion on this list must be based on a reliable source. [[User:Crypticgeek|Crypticgeek]] 23:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

::: [[Image:red_cardinal_bird.jpg|thumb|100px|right|Male Northern [[Cardinal (bird)|Cardinal]]]] That's a valid point, but I would argue that interpreting obvious facts about a picture really is the same as reporting what the source says. For example, I would consider the image and caption at right a valid citation for the claim that male northern cardinals are red, even though the caption does not mention the color. [[User:BenFrantzDale|—Ben FrantzDale]] 01:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

*KEEP.This information is far from original research, and it provides a valuable database of infractions by Google to prevent the public from viewing a non-copyrightable property...planet earth. KEEP, Wikipedia should not police a list of this nature {{unsigned|2007 74.192.231.115}}

**But that's an original conclusion... a lot of them just seem to be equipment malfunction. Actually that shows a problem with lists like this that can have no explanation and require people to draw their own conclusions... lots of people are going to be the wrong conclusions altogether. --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 02:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

* '''Strong delete'''. This is exactly the sort of thing Wikipedia should police. If the author feels strongly the author may get his own web page to advance or promulgate this information. There he or she would have perfect freedom to push this notion, ignorant of Google as it may be. Here it just seeks to stick itself onto the credibility of Wikipedia and move from private obsession to generally accepted fact. Its a cheap shot and should be dealt with as such. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Vanderleun|Vanderleun]] ([[User talk:Vanderleun|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Vanderleun|contribs]]) 23:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

He became a member of the Scarlet Moon military during his youth and participated in the Succession War as a strategist for Kasim Hazil, then served as a vice-strategist for Barbarossa Rugner under his uncle Leon. When Leon devised the plan to slaughter the town of Kalekka, Mathiu reluctantly carried out his duty, but retired from his position soon after, having realized that war inevitably causes innocents to suffer.

* '''Strong Keep'''. This is a free encyclopedia and the addition of a list of places doesn't seem out of order to me, I find this article quite interesting. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:iDemonix|iDemonix]] ([[User talk:iDemonix|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/iDemonix|contribs]]) 00:40, 13 April 2007 (UTC).</small>

Over a decade later, Mathiu became the head strategist for the Toran Liberation Army during the Gate Rune Wars following the death of Odessa. Near the end of the war, he was fatally wounded during the attack on the floating fortress by a spy. He dies shortly thereafter, just after the fall of Barbarossa.

* '''Delete'''. This belongs on a blog, not in an encyclopedia. I think someone should add this to an external page, and we can link to it from the google entry. Are we supposed to make one of these pages for every individual satellite map website? Or just for The Great Google's? Also, I worry that this page exists solely to try making people draw conclusions. Something like "Google censors." But how do we know Google censored the data, and the provider of the satellite data did not? I can keep on listing problems with this, but to me this is obviously not encyclopedic and adds to the glut of unnecessary Google sites. [[User:Rm999|Rm999]] 00:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

* '''Weak keep''' not terribly useful, but it is somewhat important. Seems a bit like listcruft. However, even if it is OR it is verifiable, so it could be included if it's decided that it's an appropriate topic. People seem to be confusing OR with V. [[User:M1ss1ontomars2k4|M1ss1ontom]]<font color="green">[[User:M1ss1ontomars2k4/Esperanza|a]]</font>[[User:M1ss1ontomars2k4|rs2k4]] ^{([[User talk:M1ss1ontomars2k4|T]] | [[Special:Contributions/M1ss1ontomars2k4|C]] | [[Special:Emailuser/M1ss1ontomars2k4|@]])} 00:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

==Odessa Silverberg==

*'''Keep'''. Not OR, for it is a compilation of material found on other secondary sources. Encyclopedic, for it is of importance in understanding a widely used resource, and as an indication of the extent of censorship. N, through both the secondary sources and the liked maps. Google maps has been used as a source of WP for many things. But if the article is rejected as bing an undifferentiated list, the same material could be used as the basis for an article under a more closely appropriate title. '''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 00:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Odessa Silverberg is the sister of Mathiu and niece to Leon. She appears in [[Suikoden I]].

**You say it's not original research, then you say it's useful because people can conclude that the raw images represent "an indication of the extent of censorship". That's drawing original conclusions from a primary source... --[[User:W.marsh|W.marsh]] 02:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' as this is useful information, but redirect to a more general (less exclusively Google) list of places obscured by mapping services, with generalized latitude/longitude mapping links. Article maintainers can develop a useful neutral set of criteria for determining when a region has been specifically obscured. --[[User:Fjarlq|Fjarlq]] 00:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

As an aristocrat, Odessa had lived most of her life in relative comfort and was unaware of the suffering of the common people. When she came to see the corruption within the Scarlet Moon Empire, she became one of the original founders of the Toran Liberation Army, an anti-imperial movement started by her late fiancé, Achilles.

: Comment: That's an interesting idea. It is notable if some sites censor some places but others do not. [[User:BenFrantzDale|—Ben FrantzDale]] 01:44, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' There is no thesis being presented about Google censorship, it is a simple list of places that are blurred out. It could be quite useful for some people and is certanly more relevant than some of those esoteric Star Wars lists that a few people mentioned.--[[User:208.97.117.154|208.97.117.154]] 01:00, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

As the leader of the Toran Liberation Army, Odessa also acted as the group's chief strategist, using her knowledge of military strategy as taught by Mathiu. She welcomes a young [[Tir McDohl]] into the army and begins to see him as a potential successor as he gained her respect. When the Imperial Army attacked the rebels' base, taking advantage of the absence of a considerable number of their forces, Odessa is assassinated while attempting to save a child.

*'''Keep''' There are a number of views I see above, holding that this list is appropriate to be deleted because it is not important, constantly changing (hence wrong from time to time), not official or sourced, original research .etc. I believe these are not good reasons. Please compare it with an article of a similar kind: [[List of notable websites blocked in the People's Republic of China]]. The "list of blocked websites" exists, despite it is constantly changing (Chinese government updates its list of blocked websites constantly, in the dark) and not official (The Chinese government never officially admit that it blocked any of those websites). Both articles are about a vast entity hiding information from the public. Given they are so similar in properties, what is the reason of keeping one and deleting another? --[[User:Computor|Computor]] 01:11, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

:*There are a lot of votes on both sides that use inappropriate arguments like: (un)interesting, useless/useful. But the fact remains that this page is original research and unsourced as admitted by several keep voters and that is a reason to delete a page. --[[User:Daniel J. Leivick|Daniel J. Leivick]] 02:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The surviving members of the Liberation Army seek out Mathiu to take up Odessa's place as chief tactician and nominate Tir as their new leader. Thanks to Odessa's foresight and advanced planning, the Toran Liberation Army is ultimately victorious in the war.

*'''Keep''' per.. well numerous. --[[User:John Kenneth Fisher|John Kenneth Fisher]] 01:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' This list should include exact coordinates for each site, and links to information on the security risk posed by photos of the sites. And it shouldn't be exclusive to Google. [[User:68.101.205.41|68.101.205.41]] 02:23, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

==??? Silverberg==

*'''Strong Keep''' Plum Island has CLEARLY been blurred. Compare the buildings to the water surronding the island. I have been to the island personally, and I can assure you that the tops of the buildings look nothing like what is being represented. This is original research. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Villaged|Villaged]] ([[User talk:Villaged|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Villaged|contribs]]) 02:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->

Mathiu and Odessa had a younger brother, but his name is unknown as is his current whereabouts. It is certain that he is still alive.

*'''Keep''' Could be cleaned up to follow [[WP:LIST]] better, but list has classic examples like [[Plum Island Animal Disease Center]] and many nuclear power plants. Give a few days at *least*. Look how old the article is... give it a change. [[User:MrMacMan|<font color="darkorange" face="Times">'''MrMacMan'''</font>]][[User talk:MrMacMan|^{<small><font color= "blue">''' Talk '''</font></small>}]] 02:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

==Shu==

Shu is the chief tactician of the Allied Forces during the Dunan Unification War. As a child, he studied military strategy under Mathiu Silverberg and alongside Apple, whom he views as a surrogate sister. He appears in [[Suikoden II]].

Under Mathiu, he learned everything about military strategy. Mathiu saw great potential in this young pupil. However, Shu used his knowledge for personal gain and was cast out from Mathiu's school. Since then, Shu has become a trader in Radat. With his uncanny grasp of the movements in the world, he quickly became rich through trade.

During the Dunan Unification War, the Allied Forces asked Shu to join them. He initially refused, but with persistent begging by Apple and Riou, he agreed and quickly whipped the Allied Forces into shape by scoring an initial victory against the Highland Army, resulting in the execution of Solon Jhee. He quickly devised cunning strategies to rally support from other city-states and established an alliance with the Toran Republic.

However, Leon Silverberg suddenly sides with the Highland Army and causes disruption to Shu's plans. After the Dunan Army's retreat against Luca Blight, Leon helped Shu defeat Luca Blight by informing him of a planned night raid and Shu did not let that chance go by. Throughout the war, Shu's attitude towards military strategy had transformed. Originally, his philosophy was identical to Leon Silverberg's philosophy, where soldiers were pawns and strategists were never supposed to risk themselves.

However, with the influence of Apple and Nanami, he started to see that it is sometimes necessary to put himself on the line in order to truly win. In the end, he leads the Allied Forces to victory after he defeats Leon Silverberg. After the war, he became the Chancellor for the new Allied Nation while awaiting the return of the hero to his rightful post. He later retires, but then is brought out of retirement by the Higheast Rebellion, in which he secretly planned a plot to cause internal discord within Harmonia, which caused them to withdraw from the Highland territory.

==Apple==

Like Shu, Apple is not a member of the Silverberg family, but was actually a student of Mathiu Silverberg. She appears in [[Suikoden I]], [[Suikoden II]] and [[Suikoden III]].

Apple deeply respects her mentor and aids him during the Toran Liberation Wars (Suikoden I). She becomes tactician to Viktor's mercenaries early in the Dunan Unification War (Suikoden II). After the fall of Muse, she successfully recruits Shu for the Allied Forces and helps him as a secondary strategist.

During Suikoden III, Apple works as a historian gathering information to compile a biography on Mathiu. She travels with a student of her own, Caesar Silverberg, and assists the young tactician as he acts as strategist for the Flame Champion during the Second Fire Bringer War. According to Apple, Caesar's tactical mindset is likely the closest to that of her master's.

==George Silverberg==

George is the son of Leon Silverberg and the father of Albert and Caesar Silverberg. Nothing else is known about him.

In the manga, Caesar describes his father as a "true tactician", a strategist who was capable of knowing when to choose between winning more battles or watching out for the soldiers under his command, which is what Caesar himself strives to become.

==Caesar Silverberg==

Caesar Silverberg is the son of George and the younger brother of Albert Silverberg. He travels with his mentor, Apple. Caesar appears in [[Suikoden III]].

Caesar is the youngest and most inexperienced of the strategists, though still possessing the talent his family is known for. Initially appearing to be a lazy and disinterested teenager, he possesses a keen and watchful mind and while he never demonstrates the elaborate plans of his predecessors his cunning misdirections and ability to see the situation stripped of emotional attachment serve the Flame Champion well.

His motivation to pursue the life of a tactician comes from his sibling rivalry with Albert, hoping to best his older brother. Caesar believes in Mathiu's ideology, where reducing the amount of casualties on both sides involved holds priority to the goal in mind so that neither opposing forces loses their strongest human resources such that they will be able to rebuild and manage a peaceful resolution because each side remains able to empathize with the other.

Caesar is initially dismissed by the Grasslanders, despite how his tactics saved the Chisha clan from Harmonia forces, and becomes discouraged, though Apple assures him that as a strategist, he must find generals to guide in battle. He eventually earns his place as their strategist when he reveals that he is familiar with the tactical advisor of the Harmonian forces: Albert Silverberg. Karaya clan chief Lucia convinces the other chiefs to accept Caesar as their tactician since she knows of Caesar's grandfather, Leon Silverberg, and the value of having Silverberg tactician on their side.

He proves himself to be a skillful tactician (though assisted by Apple and Salome Haras of the Zexen Confederacy) and intends to test his skills against Albert by pledging his support to the new Flame Champion. While the Grasslanders and the Zexen Confederacy defeat the Harmonians and the Destroyer forces, Caesar realizes that Albert remains the superior tactician and decides to return to his studies in hopes of surpassing his brother some day.

==Albert Silverberg==

Albert Silverberg is the son of George and the older brother of Caesar Silverberg. He appears in [[Suikoden III]].

Albert excelled in his studies and is an excellent strategist, eventually gaining the role of Harmonia's chief tactical advisor during Harmonia's invasion of the Grasslands. His ideals are largely similar to that of his grandfather, Leon, where bringing about the end goal as quickly as possible to spare lives takes priority over the methods used, no matter how amoral the methods may be or how much suffering must be caused as a result. He and Caesar, as a result of their differing ideologies, is a sore point between the brothers along with their contrasting personalities, especially since Albert is much more serious in comparision to his younger brother.

He initially works alongside [[Sasarai]], a bishop of Harmonia and the commander of the Harmonian invaders searching for the [[27 True Runes|True Fire Rune]], but reveals that he is actually working for Luc, the Masked Bishop. Albert's motives are unclear, but it appears that he believes supporting Luc will allow him to gain power within the Harmonian bureaucracy. It is revealed that he chose to follow Luc in hopes of lessening the amount of casualties in Luc's war through strategic means.

He eventually disappears at the end of the Second Fire Bringer War, intending leave the continent and start again under an assumed name. Caesar finds him before he leaves and informs his older brother that he will surpass him some day.

==External links==

* [http://www.suikosource.com '''Suikosource''']

[[Category:Suikoden characters]]