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{{Notability|fiction|date=May 2007}}
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|'''Before engaging in this debate, please read the existing [[Wikipedia:Protection policy|protection policy]] and the list of [[Wikipedia:protected pages|protected pages]], and get up to speed quickly by looking at [[Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy/Archive3#Rehashing|the quick rehashing of the debate]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy/Archive3#Semi-protection proposal v.02 straw poll|the poll that recently closed]]. Also, please take a look at the templates currently used, specifically [[Template:Vprotected|Vprotected]] and [[Template:Protected|protected]]. '''
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{{High-traffic|site=Slashdot.org|url=http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/17/089207|date=11:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)}}
 
The Silverberg family is a family of renoun military strategists from [[Konami]]'s [[Suikoden]] series of games. Among the characters listed are also those who have close ties to the Silverberg family.
*[[Wikipedia_talk:Semi-protection_policy/Archive1|Archive 1]], [[Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy/Archive2|2]], [[Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy/Archive3|3]]
 
In the ''Suikoden III'' manga, Caesar Silverberg attributes the countless successful strategists who have emerged from the Silverberg family as a result not only of the family passing down their teachings to a subsequent generation, but also because of each tactician's own personality traits. Throughout the course of history in Suikoden, the Silverberg family have been known to be heralds of change because of their involvement in nearly all the conflicts which have occurred.
 
Members of the Silverberg family frequently occupy the Tenki Star, the Star of Wisdom, amongst the [[108 Stars of Destiny (Suikoden)|108 Stars of Destiny]], which is the star assigned to the primary tactician of the hero or the Chikai Star, the Chief Star of Earth, which is assigned to the secondary tactician of the story.
 
==Julian Silverberg==
== billions of accounts will be made==
A legendary strategist who helped Karnach Rugner, ancestor of [[Barbarossa Rugner]], become independent from [[Harmonia]] without any bloodshed, creating the Scarlet Moon Empire more than 200 years ago.
People will sign up billions of accounts if they are a vandal to get around this we need to make sure that they can't do this.
--<span class="plainlinks" style="border: 2px solid #0000CC; padding: 1px;"><b><font color="#FF9900">[[User:Adam1213|A]]</font>[[User:Adam1213|dam1213]] [[user_talk:Adam1213|Talk]] [{{SERVER}}/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adam1213&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new +]</b></span> 01:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:Umm....what? Please read the discussion above: no IP can create more than 10 accounts per day, and the percentage number will be coded as a variable in case the number of accounts gets too high. There is an idea to limit the number of accounts created per hour, but I'm not sure where that's headed. Please read the issues before commenting like this. Further, how can or will vandals get around this, and what would you propose? In the future, try to make your comments a little more coherant. Thanks. -[[User:Mysekurity|<font color="black">Mys</font>]][[WP:EA|'''''<font color="green">e</font>''''']][[User:Mysekurity|<font color="black">kurity</font>]]<sup>([[WP:SPP|<font color="gray">have you seen this?</font>]])</sup> 03:31, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::Somehow, I am reminded of Boothy443...:-(.'''[[User:Voice of All(MTG)|<font color="blue">Voice</font><font color="darkblue"> of </font><font color="black">All]]'''</font><sup>[[user_talk:Voice_of_All(MTG)|<font color="blue">T</font>]]|[[Special:Emailuser/Voice of All(MTG)|@]]|[[WP:EA|<font color="darkgreen">ESP]]</font></sup> 03:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::10 accounts a day seems so high...if the only reason we're allowing it is because of classes signing up behind a proxy at the same time, we should have a process where a teacher requests from any admin to allow their ip to create more than 3 accounts a week. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 04:01, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Throttling down from 70 accounts per IP per week to 3 and raising the limit only upon request from faculty wouldn't help students who want to create their own accounts independently of a class but are limited by the residence hall's caching proxy, or for that matter users behind any other web proxy such as that of AOL, or any ISP in an IP-address-restricted less-developed country. --[[User:Damian Yerrick|Damian Yerrick]] 15:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::I'm thinking we add an option to [[Special:Userlogin]] about creating more accounts if the user is from a University/school/legitimate group behind a single IP. (Maybe an e-mail/contact link that would get sent to any admin who signed up for the task?) I think that would probably be more useful, plus a 3 account creation limit, or maybe just two accounts. -[[User:Mysekurity|<font color="black">Mys</font>]][[WP:EA|'''''<font color="green">e</font>''''']][[User:Mysekurity|<font color="black">kurity</font>]]<sup>([[WP:SPP|<font color="gray">have you seen this?</font>]])</sup> 15:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Elenor Silverberg==
It should be always many ways to vandalize if u want to , but at least this method could put some obstacles for that , and this method would apply in few sensitive pages which are under excessive monitoring and control . so this method is originally against the intended Vandalism made by untolerant ppl.--[[User:Unfinishedchaos|Unfinishedchaos]] 09:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Elenor Silverberg is the earliest known Silverberg since Julian himself. She was originally tactician for the Scarlet Moon Empire, but she was banished due to the actions of her subordinate, Graham Cray.
 
After this she headed south into the Island Nations where she settled on Hermitage Isle with her new apprentice, Agnes. She was recruited by the Island Nation Forces after hearing of Graham Cray's involvement and she eventually lead the army to victory against the Kooluk Forces. After the final battle she confront Graham Cray at the top of Fort El-Eal to question his actions which lead to his flight from the Scarlet Moon Empire and her exile. Fort El-Eal was destroyed in a massive explosion shortly after and it is believed that it was here that Elenor lost her life.
==Question==
Now that we seem to have a pretty solid consensus on this, where do we go from here? Jimbo has been informed of this but maybe another shout out on his talk page now that we've come to a general consensus in terms of what the policy should say? I've been working on the project for a year now but I've never done policy. Any enlightening would be helpful. :) And yes I read the How To Create Policy thingy. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 04:15, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:Actually, I will leave a note on Jimbo's page. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 04:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::I also left a note on the Village Pump page. Hopefully someone will tell us what to do next. :) 100 to 4 is a damn good consensus. Don't think anyone can argue with it. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 05:32, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Village Pump probably won't yield anything. Another call to Bugzilla should probably be the first step, as well as notifying developers in the IRC channel of the status. Also, any developers monitoring this page should leave feedback as to what the status of implementation is. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 09:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:::[http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=675 Bugzilla Link] --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 18:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Elenor appears in [[Suikoden IV]].
== 100 list ==
 
==Leon Silverberg==
Splash, I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Semi-protection_policy&diff=prev&oldid=30753930 guess] we can add this proposal to the [[Wikipedia:Times_that_100_Wikipedians_actually_agreed_and_voted_to_support_something]] list, now, huh. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 04:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
The current head of the Silverberg family, the uncle of Odessa and Mathiu Silverberg, whom he took care of after the death of their parents, and grandfather of Albert and Caesar Silverberg. He appears in [[Suikoden I]] and [[Suikoden II]].
:Indeed, which is excellent news! I'm surprised to see such large numbers visiting. I'm also pleased to observe that discussion has continued even as the poll is working; a good balance between the evility of voting and the process of discussion. Note that Kim Bruning's comment (he'd never vote) sounds like an oppose to me, although it's a pity he didn't revisit the discussion. There are a number of experienced Wikipedian's whose names I'd like to see ''somewhere'', but if they aren't here, they aren't. However, [[User:Datrio]] is one of the [[m:Stewards]], so that's encouraging, especially since he indicates that he has changed his mind over the course of the process. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 14:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::Sweet. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 18:08, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Leon is well-known throughout the world as a genius strategist and was involved in many wars, including the Succession War, the Toran Liberation Wars, and Dunan Unification Wars. He lives by his strategic maxim of "ending war as fast as possible with the fewest casualties", using whatever means necessary, regardless of the morality of it, and regardless of who will win the war. His philosophy is shared by his grandson, Albert.
==Woohoo!==
Apparently, we [[User_talk:Woohookitty#Semi-protection_policy_needs_your_input|have Jimbo's attention]]. Looks like he's going to talk to Brion about how hard it'd be for this to be implemented. Given all of this civil lawsuit nonsense, this is probably a very good time to hit him up on something like this. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 15:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
As a strategist, he is responsible for the Kalekka Incident which legitimized Scarlet Moon Empire's act of war against Jowston. During the Gate Rune Wars, Leon acted as tactical advisor for the Toran Liberation Army and aids them in ending the war. During Suikoden II, he is requested to become the strategist of the Highlands by [[Jowy Atreides]] (Jowy Blight). He aids the Highland until its defeat at the end of the Dunan Unification War.
== Classes of Users ==
 
==Mathiu Silverberg==
Being one of the newest X% of registered users is not simple or predictable.
Mathiu Silverberg is the brother of Odessa and nephew of Leon, and is a well known strategist. He is also the mentor of strategists Shu and Apple. Mathiu's tactical philosophy contrasts with his uncle's, where upon Mathiu believes that the method is more important that achieving the end goal as quickly as possible. He appears in [[Suikoden I]].
 
He became a member of the Scarlet Moon military during his youth and participated in the Succession War as a strategist for Kasim Hazil, then served as a vice-strategist for Barbarossa Rugner under his uncle Leon. When Leon devised the plan to slaughter the town of Kalekka, Mathiu reluctantly carried out his duty, but retired from his position soon after, having realized that war inevitably causes innocents to suffer.
I propose a waiting period of 14 days '''and''' 50 edits before a new user is enabled for editing the frequently vandalized pages. An admin could examine those 50 edits and see if they were merely an evasion of the requirement (i.e. adding a comma
in 50 random articles, for example)
 
Over a decade later, Mathiu became the head strategist for the Toran Liberation Army during the Gate Rune Wars following the death of Odessa. Near the end of the war, he was fatally wounded during the attack on the floating fortress by a spy. He dies shortly thereafter, just after the fall of Barbarossa.
The reason a number of days is important is because it's not variable on the actions of others (i.e. the number of other new registrations) and 50 edits is indicative of a desire to contribute to the Wikipeda and not a "hit and run" on a political target. [[User:Patsw|patsw]] 15:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:The developers have indicated that, at present, there is no means for determining account-life in software (odd as that sounds), so we'd be asking for structural changes to the database. Counting edits is apparently too computationally draining. Also, correcting 50 commas is fine: we don't have a standard of editing, other than it be not-vandalism. I'd appreciate someone fixing 50 of my mis-commaed articles, for example! On the precise values you choose: 14 days is vastly too long. I would prefer something that equated to 2-4 days and no more. 50 edits is perhaps alrihgt, although whatever the barrier is, it should be nearly trivial to overcome by any new, good-faith contributor, imo. We want all the good-faith edits we can get our hands on. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 16:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yes, remember this is not to punish new users, but rather to stop "hit & run" vandals that plague certain pages. So it restricts anon & new accounts during the time needed by non-admins to fix the vandalism while still being able to contribute, and maybe a few hours more in case it's someone sitting at a workstation or school library. "New accounts" is needed to discourage "well if anon accounts can't edit, I'll just quickly create a new account & vandalise anyway". So really as long as the "new user" ban extends to accounts that are less than 1/2 a day old, it works. New accounts which vandalise already have a system for banning/dealing with repeat vandalisms. Right now I think the % suggested works out to 3-4 days, right? And the % can be tweaked if the minimum time gets too short later on. [[User:Jabrwock|Jabrwock]] 16:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Yes, apparently 3-4 days is about right. (Although a calculation based on growth of 10% per month at a constant rate per-day suggests rather shorter than that - less than a day). I suppose the devs are able to amend it if they need to, since it is currently the same restriction as on move, and I presume thinking-ahead has been done there for us. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Splash, I can accept the difficulties involved in implementing my proposal making it impractical. If something like this is to be done, it should very, very difficult to ''game''. I thought we did have a ''standard'' of editing reflected in policies of the Wikipedia. In terms of relative needs, I think the Wikipedia needs a good solution to the vandalism problem more than it needs all the good-faith edits Splash can get his/her hands on. If not as if improving the vandalism situation will trigger a boycott by the good editors.[[User:Patsw|patsw]] 18:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:I would hope that allowing virtually all of our editors to edit a page except from those who are wanton vandals will be a good balance. We have blocking powers over those that game the system, and that's given added effectiveness with semi-protection since any sockpuppet a blockee may create won't be able to edit a semi'd page. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Odessa Silverberg==
:Patsw, the possibility of including an edit count check along with a time calculation is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Semi-protection_policy/Archive3#question_for_developers not off the table yet], we're just going to see if we can do without it first. If it becomes apparent that these pages still become heavily vandalized through legions of undead sleeper accounts, then we'll take this back to the developers, but initially, we don't want them to do more work then they need to do. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 21:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Odessa Silverberg is the sister of Mathiu and niece to Leon. She appears in [[Suikoden I]].
 
As an aristocrat, Odessa had lived most of her life in relative comfort and was unaware of the suffering of the common people. When she came to see the corruption within the Scarlet Moon Empire, she became one of the original founders of the Toran Liberation Army, an anti-imperial movement started by her late fiancé, Achilles.
== Poll closed ==
 
As the leader of the Toran Liberation Army, Odessa also acted as the group's chief strategist, using her knowledge of military strategy as taught by Mathiu. She welcomes a young [[Tir McDohl]] into the army and begins to see him as a potential successor as he gained her respect. When the Imperial Army attacked the rebels' base, taking advantage of the absence of a considerable number of their forces, Odessa is assassinated while attempting to save a child.
I've [[Wikipedia talk:Semi-protection policy/Archive3#Semi-protection proposal v.02 straw poll|archived the poll]], the discussions that went with it and the comments more than about a day old to Archive 3. By simple number counting, we have '''103/4/2''', but there is at least one comment that reads as an oppose and one that reads as a support; in both cases the not-voting appears deliberate. Discussion continues, naturally, and do note that Jimbo called by indirectly as mentioned above in [[#Woohoo!]]. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
: Having an official vote now seems way too bureaucratic, with 96% support... it's time to implement and tag this with {{tl|policy}}. Sadly, I can't reach IRC to go to #wikimedia-tech to ask a dev to look into this in detail... [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 19:26, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
: Agreed. The proposal received 96.26% support and was spammed all over Wikipedia, so I believe it is fair to say there is a strong consensus behind implementing this feature without a recount. [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 19:36, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::Wow! that's the first time I've seen so many wikipedians actually agree on something. [[User:G-Man|<font color="blue">G-Man</font>]] 19:40, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yes. I would, however, disagree with tagging this as policy without Jimbo actually blessing it. It's a change in the way we do things that would need his overt sanction. IMO, anyway. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:42, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::: *Sigh* Well, it seems that I was in the (vast) minority here. I would still like, if this is technically implemented, to see a policy drafted or something added to the blocking policy saying that pages shouldn't be semi-protected permanently or for extended/long periods of time, and that this kind of protection should only be applied to articles facing serious and extraordinary levels of vandalism. Thanks! [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] <small>([[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color="brown">note?</font>]])</small> 19:46, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::::That ''was'' part of the agreement, though. So, I don't know if it should just be made more explicit. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 19:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::Will ''this'' page become the policy page? I'm assuming that either [[Wikipedia:Protection policy]] will be modified or a new page will be created to document the policy. [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] <small>([[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color="brown">note?</font>]])</small> 19:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::Umm, well this page is called [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy]] which seems like a reasonably decent name to me. We could merge it into the full protection document upon formal acceptance. However, for now, I think we should keep the discussion here. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::: Well, it seems we now count with [[Royal Assent|Jimbo's Blessing]]. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&curid=50703&diff=31670664&oldid=31668190] Let's move ahead and tag this with {{tl|policy}} [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 00:04, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::I really do think that the language on the front page is pretty clear about this. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
The surviving members of the Liberation Army seek out Mathiu to take up Odessa's place as chief tactician and nominate Tir as their new leader. Thanks to Odessa's foresight and advanced planning, the Toran Liberation Army is ultimately victorious in the war.
==Non english projects==
 
==??? Silverberg==
I just discovered today that at least one non english pump has received a call for participation to discuss this policy. I am a bit wondering about this. Mysecurity, are you implying that a policy currently under work (well, apparently now closed) on the english wikipedia, will be applied to all projects ?
Mathiu and Odessa had a younger brother, but his name is unknown as is his current whereabouts. It is certain that he is still alive.
 
==Shu==
[[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 22:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Shu is the chief tactician of the Allied Forces during the Dunan Unification War. As a child, he studied military strategy under Mathiu Silverberg and alongside Apple, whom he views as a surrogate sister. He appears in [[Suikoden II]].
: Not really, Anthere. It would be an extension to MediaWiki, which could then be applied to other wikis, after local discussion in each wiki. So, the proposal ''could'' affect other projects, but won't unless they want it. But we wanted to genererate as much discussion as possible (and still want to), so we wanted to adjust it to the need of other Wikimedia projects too by asking for external opinions. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 22:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::After seeing the message, I doubt many understood that.... you might have mentionned a change in the software... By the way, I am curious. How much feedback did you get from other languages ? [[User:Anthere|Anthere]] 22:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
::: Probably it should have been reworded to make that clearer, but no, it is not mandatory for other wikis to adopt... but we did get [[User:Datrio|Datrio]] from Polish Wikipedia comment and think it is a good idea, as well as [[User:Unfinishedchaos|Unfinishedchaos]] from the Arabic Wikipedia comment on the issue. I'm active on the Spanish Wikipedia, so I tried to give a few interwiki thoughts as well. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:#008000;">xd</span>]]<sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]] - [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy|did you read this?]])</sup> 22:38, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Under Mathiu, he learned everything about military strategy. Mathiu saw great potential in this young pupil. However, Shu used his knowledge for personal gain and was cast out from Mathiu's school. Since then, Shu has become a trader in Radat. With his uncanny grasp of the movements in the world, he quickly became rich through trade.
== Following up on proposed policy ==
 
During the Dunan Unification War, the Allied Forces asked Shu to join them. He initially refused, but with persistent begging by Apple and Riou, he agreed and quickly whipped the Allied Forces into shape by scoring an initial victory against the Highland Army, resulting in the execution of Solon Jhee. He quickly devised cunning strategies to rally support from other city-states and established an alliance with the Toran Republic.
The recently discussed/voted on policy seems reasonable, but we should be thinking of how the vandals will get around it. The simple answer is that they will create numerous accounts and let them sit for however long is required to bypass semi-protection before launching attacks. That requires sufficient 'dedication' that it should deter most 'impulse vandals', but the zealots will immediately go for that loophole. Is there any way to prevent/discourage or at least identify that sort of activity? Also, what about the growing list of indefinitely blocked usernames which this policy will spur? Should we have a process for clearing these out so the names can be claimed by legitimate users in the future? Overall this 'semi-protection' idea seems better than the current alternatives, but we should anticipate issues which will arise from it. --[[User:CBDunkerson|CBD]] <big>[[User talk:CBDunkerson|&#x260E;]]</big> <sup>[[Special:Emailuser/CBDunkerson|&#x2709;]]</sup> 00:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:These are questions that have been asked about issues other than SP. The username list thing is easy: the devs could clear out accounts with no edits if they wanted to, but there's no technical reason to do so. Any account with >1 edit can't be removed, for obvious reasons.
:We regularly block large numbers of accounts indefinitely seconds after their creation as it is. The determined vandals have been doing this forever. I wouldn't think we will create (m)any more determined vandals with this protection since there is already enough motivation to create throwaway accounts as it is e.g. pagemove vandalism, vandalbots etc. We've handled them all before, and will handle them again (sometimes with dev help, but that's life).
:How to discourage it is worth thinking about, in the larger sense (it isn't a problem peculiar to SP, imo). I don't honestly think that implementing the double hurdle of including an edit count threshold will make much difference to determined vandals: they're determined after all! We couldn't make it a very high numerical threshold for obvious reasons and so your average vandalbot could deal with it easily. I don't have any suggestions off the top of my head; I'm just giving some context. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 00:24, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::I think an edit count + time check will indeed make a significant change should our initial sp of only a time check fail. This will remove impulse vandalism, but its not to say that any kid can still write down on a piece of paper the 10 accounts they created today, and wait a few days and then use every single one. Utilizing both checks requires each fake account created to have 50 edits, which is a daunting task unless one uses a vandalbot, which will be in the minority. I think we do need to seriously consider the proposal of deleting fake accounts, as you're going to see account creation substantially increase, and there's going to be a ''lot'' of indefinetely banned accounts with 1-10 vandalism edits. There's no reason to keep them around. Is it truly technically impossible to remove these accounts? --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 01:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::We'd be breaking the attribution requirement of the GFDL if we removed the accounts, unless we also removed their edits and any edits that [[derivative work|derived]] those edits from the articles' histories in which they appear. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 01:35, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::Yikes, that seems like that's going to bite us in the ass years down the road. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 01:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::I have wondered about that. The counter argument is that, if the edits are all vandalism that was immediately reverted, then there are no derivative revisions in the later history of the article that would be affected by e.g. a history deletion. We occasionally do remove edits from articles' histories when they are of this nature, althuogh some have questioned whether that is permissible or not. The vandals ''are'' authors too, after all, even if they are unwelcome ones. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 01:40, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::Hmm, well I guess 20 years down the road if people are using [[User:JohnSmith30948230948203984]], they can just change their sig. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 01:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::::.....if we don't usernameblock them for being too similar to the one before! -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 01:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Yeah, [[User:JohnSmith30948230948203983]] makes us all look bad. -[[User:JohnSmith30948230948203985]]
::::Would it be simple to rename the accounts [[User:JohnSmith22]] becomes [[User:vandal200512171800]]... [[User:82.12.106.84|82.12.106.84]] 18:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::In fact, yes, it would, as long as the vandal has fewer than 6800 edits. We can already [[WP:CHU|change usernames]] so that might be a way of freeing up desirable names in future, as long as the vandal never became established or anything. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 18:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
However, Leon Silverberg suddenly sides with the Highland Army and causes disruption to Shu's plans. After the Dunan Army's retreat against Luca Blight, Leon helped Shu defeat Luca Blight by informing him of a planned night raid and Shu did not let that chance go by. Throughout the war, Shu's attitude towards military strategy had transformed. Originally, his philosophy was identical to Leon Silverberg's philosophy, where soldiers were pawns and strategists were never supposed to risk themselves.
== co-operation with Tim Starling's new feature ==
 
However, with the influence of Apple and Nanami, he started to see that it is sometimes necessary to put himself on the line in order to truly win. In the end, he leads the Allied Forces to victory after he defeats Leon Silverberg. After the war, he became the Chancellor for the new Allied Nation while awaiting the return of the hero to his rightful post. He later retires, but then is brought out of retirement by the Higheast Rebellion, in which he secretly planned a plot to cause internal discord within Harmonia, which caused them to withdraw from the Highland territory.
I saw on GWB that Tim is going to implement a "last good version" feature in January for pages like GWB... will this be used in addition to, instead of, as a primary solution to semi-protection? --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 02:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:Hrm. Is this getting confused with article validation that is supposed to be coming in Jan? That was a Brion Vibber project, I thought, so perhaps not. Difficult to say without reading something about the feature. It reeks of content review by admins, though. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 02:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::Amen, brotha. I wonder if the Wikipedia community will actually have a say in this implementation. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 03:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Of course not. Users telling us what to do? Ridiculous idea. ;-) [[User:86.133.53.111|86.133.53.111]] 17:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Apple==
==Now that we have approval==
Like Shu, Apple is not a member of the Silverberg family, but was actually a student of Mathiu Silverberg. She appears in [[Suikoden I]], [[Suikoden II]] and [[Suikoden III]].
Are we going to modify the [[Wikipedia:Protection_policy|existing protection policy page]] to incorporate this or do we need to rename that page full protection policy? Seems like a minor thing, but it's not actually. I think we should rename the other page full protection and have this exist as 2 pages, since they are 2 different policies to a large degree. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 02:57, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:I would agree with the seperateness, with obvious links between the two. Perhaps in time, they will naturally become One. I would, though avoid impinging upon other, already functional policies, until this one actually switches on. We have no reason, at present, to suppose it will be any time soon. (I am willing to be proved wrong, and to consume my second hat of the day.) -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 03:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yeah we need to wait until it goes live before actually making any changes. But I wanted to get this debate going because it is important. If it's 2 pages, we need to change PP so it clearly states that it is just for full protection and that there's another page for SP. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 03:14, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Are users going to be able to request semi-protection or will this be applied at the whim of an admin? --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 03:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::''"Administrators will thus apply semi-protection in the same manner as current protection against vandalism is applied — either on their own initiative or following an alert on an article's talk page, WP:RFPP, WP:AN/I or some other relevant page"''. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 03:45, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::Sweet, although I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of semi-protection requests. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 03:46, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::So? :-D We can handle it. We currently have about 5-6 new requests a day on RfP. We have 4-5 admins patrolling it. Another 20-30 a day could be handled and I doubt we'll get to those levels. We might get a flood to begin with (and honestly, I think GWB and Daniel Brandt might be SP without specific requests as tests for the policy), but it'll be something we can handle I think. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 04:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::::Ok, ok, just commenting, wasn't trying to argue! :) --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 04:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::::::::I know. :) As I said, I'm proud of the discussions we had as a group. I wish all discussions on Wikipedia were that intelligent and civil. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 05:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::Ya too bad we all don't live near each other so we can't celebrate and get drunk at a bar and sing karaoke. --[[User:Kizzle|kizzle]] 05:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Apple deeply respects her mentor and aids him during the Toran Liberation Wars (Suikoden I). She becomes tactician to Viktor's mercenaries early in the Dunan Unification War (Suikoden II). After the fall of Muse, she successfully recruits Shu for the Allied Forces and helps him as a secondary strategist.
== Great idea ==
 
During Suikoden III, Apple works as a historian gathering information to compile a biography on Mathiu. She travels with a student of her own, Caesar Silverberg, and assists the young tactician as he acts as strategist for the Flame Champion during the Second Fire Bringer War. According to Apple, Caesar's tactical mindset is likely the closest to that of her master's.
Fantastic idea... I wonder if they can implement this in the MediaWiki software? - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 04:00, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:Glad you like it! In Archive 3 (see link up top), Aevar and Brion have both commented without saying it can't be done. They have pointed out that certain things would mean more work or server load than others, and the version on the front page, and subjected to the poll, deliberately avoids asking for those things. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 04:10, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::Yep. And Jimbo gave pretty damn fast approval. :) He must think it'd be doable or else he wouldn't have. This debate hasn't even been going on for a month yet and Jimbo said yes. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 04:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::This makes me wonder if it's a good time to bring up another MediaWiki idea I had - locking sections rather than entire pages. This would probably be well beyond the scope of what's being discussed, though. --[[User:Starkruzr|Starkruzr]] 11:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==George Silverberg==
==Btw==
George is the son of Leon Silverberg and the father of Albert and Caesar Silverberg. Nothing else is known about him.
I added a note to the top stating that this has yet to be implemented. Hopefully that'll stave off early requests. Edit it if you feel like it could be worded better. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 04:08, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:I also changed the tense on some of the words and spelled out the acronyms since this is official policy now. :) Needs to be readable for John Q. Wiki. :) --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 05:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In the manga, Caesar describes his father as a "true tactician", a strategist who was capable of knowing when to choose between winning more battles or watching out for the soldiers under his command, which is what Caesar himself strives to become.
== WebDSign ==
There is a way to implement such protection in a non-intrusive way: [http://www.makarevitch.org/webdsign/#wikipedia WebDSign application to Wikipedia].
 
==Caesar Silverberg==
== Nasty side-effect ==
Caesar Silverberg is the son of George and the younger brother of Albert Silverberg. He travels with his mentor, Apple. Caesar appears in [[Suikoden III]].
 
Caesar is the youngest and most inexperienced of the strategists, though still possessing the talent his family is known for. Initially appearing to be a lazy and disinterested teenager, he possesses a keen and watchful mind and while he never demonstrates the elaborate plans of his predecessors his cunning misdirections and ability to see the situation stripped of emotional attachment serve the Flame Champion well.
There seems to be a nasty side-effect to this change. Consider the pages that a new user is most likely to visit and edit. It will commonly be one of the most popular articles, which are probably also the most vandalised articles. In a way, this change prevents a new user from making an edit to a page as they see necessary.
 
His motivation to pursue the life of a tactician comes from his sibling rivalry with Albert, hoping to best his older brother. Caesar believes in Mathiu's ideology, where reducing the amount of casualties on both sides involved holds priority to the goal in mind so that neither opposing forces loses their strongest human resources such that they will be able to rebuild and manage a peaceful resolution because each side remains able to empathize with the other.
I would have thought that just disabling anonymous edits on semi-protected pages would have been a good place to start, before denying new users edits on popular pages. - [[User:James Foster|James Foster]] 11:38, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Caesar is initially dismissed by the Grasslanders, despite how his tactics saved the Chisha clan from Harmonia forces, and becomes discouraged, though Apple assures him that as a strategist, he must find generals to guide in battle. He eventually earns his place as their strategist when he reveals that he is familiar with the tactical advisor of the Harmonian forces: Albert Silverberg. Karaya clan chief Lucia convinces the other chiefs to accept Caesar as their tactician since she knows of Caesar's grandfather, Leon Silverberg, and the value of having Silverberg tactician on their side.
:We've discussed and debated all of that. [[Wikipedia_talk:Semi-protection_policy/Archive3#Rehashing|Here]] is a quick rehash. And btw, popular doesn't always equal most vandalized. And we're talking 20-30 articles at most. Anyway, you can read the rest for yourself. :) --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 12:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:There does remain the possibility of letting ''X'' = 0. The implicit supposition at present is, so far as I understand it, that it would actually be the sam ''X'' as currently restricts access to the "move" button. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 16:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
He proves himself to be a skillful tactician (though assisted by Apple and Salome Haras of the Zexen Confederacy) and intends to test his skills against Albert by pledging his support to the new Flame Champion. While the Grasslanders and the Zexen Confederacy defeat the Harmonians and the Destroyer forces, Caesar realizes that Albert remains the superior tactician and decides to return to his studies in hopes of surpassing his brother some day.
== New topics immune to Semi-protection ==
 
==Albert Silverberg==
I like the idea in general, and while Semi-protection is designed for oft-vandalised pages, I would like to recommend that it not be possible for anyone to semi-protect a new article for ''n''days after its creation.. even if it's being vandalised. This allows the maximum number of people to participate in the article's 'birth', even if it's a painful birth. My primary reason for this recommendation is that it ensures the Wikipedia is able to be immediately up-to-date with breaking news from people who've never edited before.--[[User:RickMeasham|RickMeasham]] 12:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Albert Silverberg is the son of George and the older brother of Caesar Silverberg. He appears in [[Suikoden III]].
 
Albert excelled in his studies and is an excellent strategist, eventually gaining the role of Harmonia's chief tactical advisor during Harmonia's invasion of the Grasslands. His ideals are largely similar to that of his grandfather, Leon, where bringing about the end goal as quickly as possible to spare lives takes priority over the methods used, no matter how amoral the methods may be or how much suffering must be caused as a result. He and Caesar, as a result of their differing ideologies, is a sore point between the brothers along with their contrasting personalities, especially since Albert is much more serious in comparision to his younger brother.
:I just don't see the need for that. For one thing, articles are rarely protected now that are only a few days old. Secondly, as we've stated before, we're trying to start with as few restrictions as possible. I don't see admins semi-protecting pages that are 2-3 days old. They don't fully protect new articles, so I'm not sure why they would semi-protect new articles when it's clearly for prolonged vandalism. Admins are pretty self-policing. Trust me. I've been yelled at enough to know. :) --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|(cat scratches)]]</sup> 12:30, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
He initially works alongside [[Sasarai]], a bishop of Harmonia and the commander of the Harmonian invaders searching for the [[27 True Runes|True Fire Rune]], but reveals that he is actually working for Luc, the Masked Bishop. Albert's motives are unclear, but it appears that he believes supporting Luc will allow him to gain power within the Harmonian bureaucracy. It is revealed that he chose to follow Luc in hopes of lessening the amount of casualties in Luc's war through strategic means.
::heh .. thanks for assuaging my concerns :) --[[User:RickMeasham|RickMeasham]] 12:39, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Indeed. One might reasonably suppose that brand new pages would usually be free-ish from ''vandalism'' at first anyway. THey might well face an edit-war over any number of things, but as the front page says, semi-protection would definitely not be appropriate then. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 16:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
He eventually disappears at the end of the Second Fire Bringer War, intending leave the continent and start again under an assumed name. Caesar finds him before he leaves and informs his older brother that he will surpass him some day.
== Good work ==
 
==External links==
And here I was thinking that Wikipedia would be able to avoid the classic decay and decline of other internet communities, the steady erosion of the basic principles that made the community and project work in the first place. Ah, innocence. Doesn't anyone remember that [http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?VotingIsEvil VotingIsEvil]? [[User:The Cunctator|The Cunctator]] 13:53, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
* [http://www.suikosource.com '''Suikosource''']
 
[[Category:Suikoden characters]]
*If properly implemented, I think the gains in quality and professional tone will attract more than enough new editors to make up for the ones turned off by the policy. If improperly implemented, then you're right, Wikipedia will end up turning in on itself like other internet communities. We'll just have to see to it that it's properly implemented, eh? Or I suppose we can give up, declare the whole thing a loss, and go home. We all have to make that choice individually. [[User:Stephen Aquila|Stephen Aquila]] 15:37, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
*This is, at very worst, a minor 'erosion' of principles. It will be applied no more widely, I hope, than full-protection is at present. So there will be no greater number of pages protected than there already are, and for no longer. The community will see to that. It is, at best, a de-erosion of principles since, rather than having 0.11% of editors able to edit a page, and forbidden by long-standing convention from doing so, something like 96-98% of contributors will be able to edit the page. ''There is no suggestion that we apply this to random pages just 'because'. Do read carefully the wording on the front page that refers to pages facing serious vandalism.'' Voting is evil. Yes, we know. The immense amount of discussion that went with it (you ''did'' read the whole of the archive, yes?) and the allaying of most fears that it resulted in is a good thing. The straw poll is just an optional extra to clarify the process. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 16:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
==Should [[Wikipedia:Semi-protection policy]] be semi-protected?==
<nowiki>;-)</nowiki> The policy page just got [[Slashdot effect|slashdotted]] 4 ½ hours ago. [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me]] 15:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:No, since Semiprotection is ''not'' a proposal to pre-emptively protect pages that ''might'' face vandalism. :) It's a well-written policy, you see! -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 16:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:: Although it was a lighthearted joke when I first wrote that, it looks like we're starting to see some of the residual effects of the slashdotting now, in the form of vandalism. [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me]] 17:01, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Now <nowiki>{{vprotected}}</nowiki>. [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] <small>([[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color="brown">note?</font>]])</small> 17:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== Smooth move to whoever protected it ==
 
You protected the wrong version. Notice the nice "HA HA" @ the bottom! [[User:68.39.174.238|68.39.174.238]] 17:02, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Now reverted. Cut it out, or you will be blocked. [[User:Flcelloguy|Flcelloguy]] <small>([[User talk:Flcelloguy|A <font color="brown">note?</font>]])</small> 17:05, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::I don't think it was him. &mdash;[[User:Bunchofgrapes|Bunchofgrapes]] ([[User talk:Bunchofgrapes|talk]]) 17:12, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::: It wasn't. 68.39.174.238 is the infamous "RVC" anti-vandal. [[User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me|Can&#39;t sleep, clown will eat me]] 17:13, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== Support from Jimbo ==
 
How is that one sentence relevant? I get the feeling this is used to round up votes from those who admire him, a sort of appeal to authority or respect. Anyway, I do not think a statement like that should be put in bold fonts on a project page, it's just silly. --[[User:Fbd|Friðrik Bragi Dýrfjörð]] 17:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:It was Jimbo who wrote it there, and if Jimbo says green is red, then green '''is''' red. <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">[[User:AzaToth|Aza]]</font><font style="color:#325596">[[User_talk:AzaToth|Toth]]</font></sub> 17:19, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
::I think he's talking about the note at the very bottom of the page, "Jimbo has also expressed his support.", which Splash added [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Semi-protection_policy&diff=31691115&oldid=31685599], not the press disclaimer at the top. &mdash;[[User:Bunchofgrapes|Bunchofgrapes]] ([[User talk:Bunchofgrapes|talk]]) 17:21, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::Ah, ok, that should be removed yes <sub>→<font style="color:#975612">[[User:AzaToth|Aza]]</font><font style="color:#325596">[[User_talk:AzaToth|Toth]]</font></sub> 17:22, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::::Well said, that man. Jimbo might call the shots at the upper level, '''but he is not a God'''. Statement such as, "if Jimbo says X is Y, then X ''is'' Y" are completely ridiculous. If Jimbo told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?
 
::::As to whether or not Jimbo's support for something should be allowed to influence whether or not people support it as well; well, if they do, that's their lookout. At the end of the day, [[Animals (album)|are you a dog, a sheep, or one of the pigs?]] [[User:86.133.53.111|86.133.53.111]] 17:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:::::I just feel like it goes against the NPOV policy, even though it isn't an article. If a person has an opinion and supports it with valid and good argument, should that opinion be on the project page in bold fonts? If I had used this as an argument in support of this policy, those who argued against it would have said that such an argument is invalid, the fact that Jimbo supports something or not doesn't make it right or wrong. I don't have anything against Jimbo, I just don't like to think of him as something more (or less) than an equal even though he might be thought of as a first among equals. --[[User:Fbd|Friðrik Bragi Dýrfjörð]] 17:41, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
Jimbo expressed his support only ''after'' the close of the straw poll and the {policy} tag was added only ''after'' Jimbo had expressed his support. It was not used for recruitment purposes, and is there merely as a justification for the {policy} status of the page. And anyway, if Jimbo says we do something, we do it. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 17:54, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
:I wasn't accusing you (or anyone) of rigging the votes, but using this as a justification is silly. The votes justify the policy (and are sufficient), Jimbos comments are completely irrelevant as a justification in this example. If Angela had noted somewhere she didn't like the policy, should that be in bold fonts on the policy page? --[[User:Fbd|Friðrik Bragi Dýrfjörð]] 18:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
 
== Voting is evil ==
 
JOHN SEIGENTHALER WAS THE REICHSTAG FIRE
 
WIKIPEDIANS HAVE VOTED FOR THEIR OWN ENSLAVEMENT
 
FASCIST DILDOS ARE SEIZING DICTATORIAL CONTROL
 
FREE THE ANONYMOUS EDITORS
 
{{user|Splash}} attempted to remove this free speech message
:Oh, get over it. It was an edit conflict that was unresolved. Yes, I can't stand free speech. Hates it, we do. Hates it. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 17:59, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
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