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==Name==
== Jewish Questions for Mormons ==
"Carnival Corporation & Plc", is that a UK subsidiary?--[[User:Jerryseinfeld|Jerryseinfeld]] 00:19, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
*No it's a [[dual listed company]]. [[User:Carina22|Carina22]] 5 July 2005 03:21 (UTC)
== Merger and the Surviving Corporate Name==
I'm often amazed at the vast array of religions we have today - and what's even more amazing is that everyone claims to be correct! However, I will concede that many religions share commonality with each other (i.e. Judaism & Christianity). And in some respects, Mormons seem to fit the mold of "Christians" apart from various doctrines that the mainstream will not accept.
In regards to a statement made in [[Carnival Corporation & Plc]] by [[User:Carina22]] stating that Carnival Corporation & Plc was formerly known as P&O Princess is incorrect! Carnival Corporation was a separate independently operated cruise line owned by Micky Arison and his family for nearly 40 years and P&O Princess was a United Kingdom publicly traded cruise line to which Mr. Arison and his family had absolutely '''NO''' affiliation with until the Carnival-P&O Princess merger occurred. So basically after the merger was completed P&O Princess became a subsidary of Carnival and the P&O name was dropped in favor of the Carnival name but the way you wrote it, it made it look like Carnival was always called P&O Princess which as stated before is an incorrect statement to make. [[User:Misterrick]] 05:10, 05 July 2005 (UTC).
As a believer in [[Judaism]] (although I'm also a Christian), I like to use my Jewish heritage as a "litmus" test for religious accuracy. Since the [[Tanakh]] teaches that Hebrews were the ''first'' to receive a Covenant relationship with ''El Shaddai'', Judaism forms the foundation of “true religion”. So in turn, how do other faiths build on that? Do they teach about a different understanding of God, or perhaps they fashion God into the image that best suits them - all contrary to Hebrew Scripture by the way. I once heard that Yeshua (Jesus) came to the Jewish people (and the Gentiles) to create a '''''relationship''''' and not a '''''new religion'''''. That seems to reconcile my point, especially since His first disciples never abandoned Judaism. The concept is spelled out in both the Hebrew [[Tanakh]] and the Christian [[New Testament]] as well. Yeshua didn’t preach about a "new God" or the coming of a "new religion". Yeshua simply revealed the fullness of Isreal's God through Himself - ''Baruch HaShem Adonai'' (Blessed be the Name of the Lord) !
:No it isn't a subsidiary, it is a [[dual listed company]]. This is an unusual arrangement, so read the article if you don't know what it means. So far as I know Carnival is the only major "American" dual listed company, but we have several in the UK so we are more familiar with the concept. [[User:Carina22|Carina22]] 06:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Again, In accurate statements being made by [[User:Carina22|Carina22]]. Yes, P&O Princess did become a subsidary under the new dual listed company and again Carnival was never formerly known as P&O Princess, As stated before P&O Princess was a separate company that mergered with Carnival, In fact Carnival was started 40 years before Princess even existed so how can Carnival have been formerly known as P&O Princess when P&O Princess didn't even exist when Carnival was first started by Micky Arison's father? Additionally on the Carnival Corporation & Plc website it states, "On April 17, 2003, Carnival Corporation (NYSE: CCL) and P&O Princess Cruises plc (LSE: POC) merged via a dual listed company structure (DLC). Subsequently, P&O Princess Cruises plc has changed its name to Carnival plc." so there is no way that Carnival could ever have been formerly known as P&O Princess. [[User:Misterrick|Misterrick]] 19:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC).
So then, as a descendant of Abraham, I must ask the question - how does the Mormon view of God stack up against the Jewish-Jesus view? Does the LDS faith teach the existence of One – and only One God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Mark 12:29)? Does it teach that the God of Isreal is eternal and unchanging (Genesis 21:33, Malachi 3:6)? These all seem to be fundamental questions that should be addressed if the LDS community seeks any form of acceptance from Jews or Orthodox Christians.
::No, Carnival '''plc''' ''was'' formerly P&O Princess Cruises. The problem is that you still don't understand what a [[dual listed company]] is. The quotation you give does '''not''' state or imply that P&O Princess Cruises plc became a subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, because it didn't. They both became holding companies of a dual listed company. Carnival Corporation was never called P&O Princess, but Carnival '''Plc''' was. This is possible because Carnival Corporation and Carnival Plc are '''two''' ''separate'', independently quoted companies. Carnival plc is the '''same''' legal entity as P&O Princess Cruises with the same shareholder body but a different name, just the same as if Ford changed its name to Detroit Motors it would be the same legal entity with the same shareholder body. The only difference is that now Carnival Plc is one of the two holding companies of Carnival Corporation & Plc. Corporation and Plc are '''two''' companies with separate shareholder bodies and ''neither owns the other'', which is a what being a [[dual listed company]] is about.
::Deleting a paragraph and marking that as a minor edit is not appropriate.
::And finally P&O is a lot older than Carnival Corporation. The Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company was founded in 1837, and P&O Princess Cruises demerged from it on 23 October 2000.[[User:Carina22|Carina22]] 09:46, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
You know Carina22, I'll let you have it because your being such an a--hole, I do know what a dual listed company is but you can't get it through your head what I am trying to tell you and by the way P&O doesn't stand for Princess and Orient, it's Pacific and Orient and P&O didn't found Princess they acquired it in the 60s or 70s so Carnival Cruise Lines is older. [[User:Misterrick|Misterrick]] 21:15, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
Moreover The New Testament teaches us that the Messiah Yeshua is God (John 1:1, Titus 2:13, ect). Therefore keeping with [[monotheism]], Christians worship Yeshua as [[YHWH]] [[Elohim]] – the One "LORD God" of Israel. The [[Hebrew Bible]] and the [[New Testament]] don't teach about plural "Gods". It teaches about One Eternal God who at the appointed time, was destined to clothe himself in flesh and become the Messiah of His people (Isaiah 9:6, Philippians 2:6-8). In turn, Do Mormons accept that Yeshua is [[YHWH]]? Do they acknowledge the Everlasting origins of the Messiah (Micah 5:2)? I believe ''this'' is why the Judeo-Christian community by in large doesn’t accept them. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 15:45, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
== Shema Isreal (שמע ישראל ) ==
I have to disagree with Carina22 on this one as well. This demerger thing is giving me a headache.
Deuteronomy 6:4, often called the [[Shema]], is one of the most revered verses in Judaism. In this passage, the phrase “One Lord” is rendered ''Adonai Echad'' in Hebrew. ''Echad'' is a Hebrew word that's often used to identify a compound unity. Consider Genesis 2:24, ''“…The two shall become one [Echad] flesh''. Most "Christians" don't realize that in the [[Shema]], Moses referred to the compound nature of God. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 18:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
From what I understand using my own knowledge:
*Carnival Cruise Lines is formed by Arison
*P&O Princess Cruises is formed later by P&O
*Carnival Corp/PLC is formed after Carnival gobbles up a bunch of other cruise lines. The Corp/PLC puts all of the lines (Carnival/HAL/Costa) under one umbrella)
*Princess Cruises demerges from the main P&O and becomes it's own company dealing only with cruises (The company has several cruise brands under its umbrella)
*Carnival and Princess merge, or perhaps Princess is bought out. Anyway, Princess becomes another cruise brand under the umbrella of Carnival Corp/PLC
I don't think Carnival was ever called P&O BEFORE the two companies merged. They had no relations with each other until the merger.
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You have asked a great deal, but I will focus now on one thing; Mmirachi, are you proposing that the unity of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ is analogous to the one flesh of created by a man uniting with a woman as discussed in Gen. 2:24? --[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]] [[User talk:Storm Rider|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
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Here is the company history website: [[http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=200767&p=irol-history]]
--[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]], No, Im simply addressing the vocabulary of Hebrew in the [[Shema]]. Im showing that ''"Echad"'' means "One" in english but in Hebrew it can literally mean a compound unity -as with the example of marriage described by Genesis. "One and only" (i.e. a single person) would be rendered ''"Yachiyd"'' in Hebrew. So why would Moses write the Ancient variant of ''Echad'' and not ''Yachiyd''...again, who knows for sure. However, a good reference point for further study on the Father & Yeshua being One LORD - ''Adonai Echad''
*It says that in 2003, Carnival Corp (including brands Carnival/HAL etc) merged with P&O Princess Cruises plc (consisting of Princess, P&O, and AIDA cruises). Perhaps the names were merged to become Carnival Corporation & plc
After further research, I found this confusing text from cruisecritic.com about Princess:
== Apostasy Reviewed ==
*Princess is now part of the industry's giant Carnival Corporation a move that occurred when Carnival acquired the cruise line's parent company -- U.K.-based P&O Cruises.
And regarding P&O Cruises ...
Now for the "Great Apostasy" issue. A good question was recently raised. How could there be 26,000 different Christian denominations if there was no "Apostasy" that created division? Well, as a Graduate student studying World Religions at a Major University, I can assure you there's not nearly that many. By definition, the term "Evangelical" represents a single sect of Christianity. Evangelicalism has over 30 million adherents. Do the math...the population of the earth isn’t large enough for 26K "different Aposate Christian faiths" (30,000,000 people X 26,000 sects = 936 Billion people).
*It acquired Los Angeles-based Princess Cruises in 1974 and Sitmar Cruises in 1988, which P&O chose to merge. Even more expansion followed for its Princess Cruises subsidiary. In October 2000, the company underwent another major change: P&O's parent company was acquired by Carnival Corporation and is now known as P&O Princess.
And Taken from P&O Cruises' website:
Conclusively, Many counter-Christian groups cite an "Apostasy" but have no historical evidence to reconcile their claims. Honestly, besides assumptions that the Church was marred by "unholy doctrines", what evidence can be provided that any of it is true? And if it is true, why even research the Bible at all? Here's your chance to really impress me - ''Please show me the verses that have been corrupted '''along with evidence of such'''. '' You cant "pick & choose" what verses you want to keep and what verses you'd like to throw out. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 15:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
*In April 2004 P&O Princess plc, the parent company of P&O Cruises, joined together with Carnival Corporation, bringing together two of the best known and most successful organisations in the cruise industry. Already Britain’s market leading cruise company, P&O Cruises is now part of one of the world’s largest leisure travel companies.
*P&O Princess Cruises demerged from the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company on 23 October 2000 when it started trading as an independent company on the London and New York Stock Exchanges. Carnival Plc is now the third largest cruise company in the world by revenue
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:Mormonism is a belief, your question is self-serving. When was the apostacy? It was Friday, at 3:16 p.m., 102 AD. The answer is irrelevant.--[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]] [[User talk:Storm Rider|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
'''In conclusion,''' I'm totally confused!
Storm Rider - On the contrary, dates and events are important in regard to historical '''fact'''. Catholics KNOW the date and circumstances in which the Church was formed. Protestants KNOW the date and circumstances surrounding Martin Luther's "reformation". Jews KNOW the dates in which the German Holocaust occured. Americans KNOW the date the Declaration of Independence was signed. ''None'' of these events can be questioned because we have historical facts surrounding them. The notion of a "Great Apostasy" is what I consider "romantic theology" - It sounds appealing but ultimately rests on its own merit. It's like telling a patient they have Cancer but not specifying what type or how to treat the disease...how is that helpful to anyone? [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 15:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
==Ships==
you listed historic cunard ships like RMS Queen Elizabeth 1940 and old Carpathia under Carnival Corp. ships. What's that? It's wrong!
QE 2 and QM 2 are okay. 10:01, July,29th 2005 DEF
:I'd argue that since Cunard is now a subsidiary of Carnival Corporation, that these were correctly placed. As would RMS Titanic for example. However it would have to be properly noted. [[User:JonEastham|JonEastham]] 15:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
:Mmirarchi - We believe that over time the teachings of men were interjected into the Gospel taught by Jesus Christ. More importantly, these doctrines became central to Christianity and those things that Jesus taught took a secondary position. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity is not the litmus test for being called Christian by many Christian groups. The problem is that this issue was so secondary to other teachings it was never taught by Jesus Christ. Further, Jesus constantly taught repent and be baptized, but today baptism in many churches is a secondary issue that is little more than symbolic. However, Jesus taught it as central and He set the example by seeking it out for Himself while being perfect.--[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]] [[User talk:Storm Rider|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
So, how come I can't get to a P&O Cruises (Australia) or a P&O Cruises (UK) page where I would find info on the ships Pacific Sky, Pacific Star, Pacific Sun or Arcadia, Artemis, Aurora, Oceana, Oriana and soon Ventura? Where is all this located? Because when I search for P&O Cruises, I'm basically told it doesn't exist, when it does. --[[User:Eeclwa|Eeclwa]] 21:56, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Storm Rider - True, Baptism is important. However, for being so important it's interesting to note that Jesus Himself ''never'' baptized anyone. Not a single person. Check your King James Bible again, you won't find one occurrence - I guarantee you. The Salvation Jesus provided seemingly flowed entirely from the Cross, not water. In turn, we see no evidence the thief crucified next to Christ was ever removed from the cross and Baptized after repenting. Nevertheless, Scripture still states he was promised Paradise at the side of Jesus. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 18:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
:Mmirarchi - Let's focus on what has become Orthodoxy. Ehrman and White, two among many academics who are non Mormon, now reveal how the first 300 years of Christianity was a disparate grouping of beliefs that focused on Jesus Christ; at best there was a proto-orthodoxy, but there was hardley "the" Christian Church. It took a pagan ruler, Constantine, to assemble men to vote on what is Christianity and what is true doctrine. Not one of those who attended professed to be a prophet or to be led by the Spirit; they all voted to state what is true. That process was never known in God's religion; it did not happen in the either the Old Testatment or the New..--[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]] [[User talk:Storm Rider|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that P&O cruises should have it's own page, Carnival may own P&O, but it owns Princess to and they have their own page (incidentally P&O took over Princess before both brands were taken over by Carnival, deepening the injustice!) P&O Cruises has a history of over 100 years that stretches back way before Carnival comes along. Just because we trade as Carnival now (ok, so the cat's out of the bag, I work for P&O, well, Cunard, but that's another rant...) we still trade as P&O in the UK, most people don't know who Carnival are!
Storm Rider - Your history is correct, but your interpretation may not be. Doesn’t the Spirit reveal all Truth to those who believe? "Prophets" were needed in the Old Testament because the Holy Spirit was NOT given to all believers yet. Only a select few (i.e. Prophets) could fellowship with God and speak for Him. However, after the administration of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, all believers are equally able to receive God's Word in a personal way. Read through the New Testament closely - you'll quickly find that I’m speaking truthfully. In turn, who’s to say that the Spirit didn’t lead the founders of the Christian Church? Look at Acts 1:26, you'll find that even the Apostles of Christ had to "cast lots" to decide who would take the place of Judas the betrayer. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 20:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
<br /> I'll agree to the last two comments. Definately something that needs doing one day. [[User:Newda898|Newda898]] 21:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
:I started a separate article for [[P&O Cruises]]. It's a tad shortish as I didn't dare to get into the company history after all this confusion... so if anyone can wrap their heards around this better than me, go and improve the article right now! - [[User:Kjet|Kjet]] 11:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
:Mmirarchi - We view all of these things as signs of the Apostacy. I am also just speaking off the top of my head without attempting to reference any of it, but it suffices for a beginning to this conversation.
:Now about math; logic is probably not the best tool to use in this discussion. You should probably review New edition of World Christian Encyclopedia, which tabulated 10,000 distinct religious groups, including 33,830 Christian denominations[http://www.adherents.com/misc/WCE.html]. This makes my 26,000 number pale in comparaison; however, that is a neutral source..--[[User:Storm Rider|Storm Rider]] [[User talk:Storm Rider|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Great idea, it was the pain of taking a leap and starting it that seemed so daunting. Ah well, there's a project for the Easter holidays! [[User:Newda898|Newda898]] 18:34, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
== Titanic ==
Storm Rider - I've reviewed your source. I’m still going with the logic of my math I discussed at the top of this forum. Honestly, I think you may be taking the author of your source out of context. He isn’t saying we have 38,830 ''different types of Christianity'' or 38,830 ''different views about God''. He's simply saying that within Christianity, styles of fellowship differ creating branches of the same faith. Subsequently, Orthodox Christianity can still be defined by ONE common religious belief. Differences immerge many times as a result of culture, demographics or geography. The world is a diverse place so styles of praise may be different. Some are more conservative, others more casual - I believe the same could be said for Mormonism. [[User:Mmirarchi|Mmirarchi]] 18:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes Carnival did not own Titanic, but threw the purchase of Cunard, it has become part of its history. Please do not just revert back with talking about it. -[[User:Texaswebscout|Ben]] 02:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
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