User talk:Joopercoopers/Archive 1 and NKVD prisoner massacres: Difference between pages

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The '''massacre of prisoners''' refers to a series of mass executions committed by [[Soviet Union|Soviet]] [[NKVD]] against prisoners in [[Poland]] and parts of the Soviet Union from which the [[Red Army]] was withdrawing after the [[Nazi Germany|German]] invasion in [[1941]] (''see [[Operation Barbarossa]]''). The overall death toll is estimated at 30,000-40,000, including more than 10,000 in Western Ukraine.<ref name="Rhodes">{{en icon}} {{cite book | author=[[Richard Rhodes]] | year = 2002 | title = Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust | publisher = Alfred A. Knopf | ___location = New York | id = ISBN 0-375-40900-9}} Despite the deportations, Barbarossa surprised the NKVD, whose jails and prisons in the invaded western territories were crowded with political prisoners. Rather than releasing their prisoners as they hurried to retreat during the first week of the war, the Soviet secret police simply killed them. NKVD prisoner executions in the first week after Barbarossa totaled some ten thousand in the western Ukraine and more than nine thousand in Vinnitsa, eastward toward Kiev; comparable numbers of prisoners were executed in eastern Poland, Byelorussia, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. The Soviet areas had already sustained losses numbering in the hundreds of thousands from the Stalinist purges of 1937-38. “It was not only the numbers of the executed,” historian Yury Boshyk writes of the evacuation murders, “but also the manner in which they died that shocked the populace. When the families of the arrested rushed to the prisons after the Soviet evacuation, they were aghast to find bodies so badly mutilated that many could not be identified. It was evident that many of the prisoners had been tortured before death; others were killed en masse.”</ref>
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== [[:Image:Mughal painting2.jpg]] ==
 
By the beginning of the war most of the [[Poles|ethnically Polish]] population, [[Treatment of Polish citizens by occupiers|subject to Soviet rule for two years now]], have already [[Involuntary settlements in the Soviet Union|been deported off the border regions]] to remote areas of the Soviet Union. Others, including a large number of Polish civilians of other nationalities (mostly [[Belarusians]] and [[Ukrainians]]), were kept in provisional prisons in the towns of the region, where they awaited deportation either to NKVD prisons in [[Moscow]] or to the [[Gulag]]. It is estimated that out of 13 million people living in the pre-war Polish areas, roughly half a million of people were arrested, more than 90% of them being males. Thus approximately every tenth adult male was imprisoned at the time of the German offensive<ref name="From_Peace">{{en icon}} {{cite book | author =[[Militargeschichtliches Forschungsamt]] (corporate author) | coauthors =[[Gottfried Schramm]], [[Jan T. Gross]], [[Manfred Zeidler]] et al. | title =From Peace to War: Germany, Soviet Russia and the World, 1939-1941 | year =1997 | editor =Bernd Wegner | pages =47-79 | chapter = | chapterurl = | publisher =Berghahn Books | ___location = | id =ISBN 1-57181-882-0| url =http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN1571818820&id=7odfDAlO64UC&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&q=Lvov&vq=Lvov&dq=NKVD+1941&sig=1MZdzhkhg1tmo6fSCF19oz4KP4o }}</ref>. Many died in prisons from torture or neglect<ref name="From_Peace"/>.
Uhm.. maybe you should talk to the uploader, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Image:Mughal_painting2.jpg&action=history] I don't know anything about the image. I just asked the uploader to reduce the size, per [[WP:FAIR]]. &mdash; [[User:Indon|Indon]] ([[User_talk:Indon |<font color="green">reply</font>]]) &mdash; 15:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:OK, thanks, I'll do that. --[[User:Joopercoopers|Joopercoopers]] 15:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 
Immediately after the start of the invasion, the [[NKVD]] started to execute a large number of prisoners in most of their prisons, while the remainder was to be evacuated in [[death march]]es<ref name="From_Peace"/><ref name="PWN">{{pl icon}} [[Encyklopedia PWN]], ''[http://encyklopedia.pwn.pl/83293_1.html ZBRODNIE SOWIECKIE W POLSCE]'''':''After the outbreak of the German-Soviet war, in June of 1941, thousands of prisoners have been murdered in mass executions in prisons (among others in [[Lwów]] and [[Berezwecz]]) and during the evacuation (so-called death marches)''</ref>. Most of them were [[political prisoner]]s, imprisoned and executed without a trial. With few exceptions, the huge group of prisoners of [[Western Belarus]] and [[Western Ukraine]] was either marched eastwards, executed or both<ref name="From_Peace"/>. After the war and in recent years, the authorities of Germany, Poland, Belarus and Israel identified no less than 25 prisons whose prisoners were killed - and a much larger number of mass execution sites<ref name="From_Peace"/>. Among the notable cases of such mass execution of prisoners were:
==Taj Mahal RFC==
* [[Lviv]]: between [[June 23]] and [[June 28]], the NKVD executed several thousand of inmates in a number of provisional prisons. Among the common methods of extermination were shooting the prisoners in their cells, killing them with grenades thrown into the cells or starving them to death in the cellars. It is estimated that over 4000 people were murdered that way, while the number of survivors is estimated at ca. 270<ref name="Gałkiewicz">{{pl icon}} [[Anna Gałkiewicz]] (2001) ''[http://www.ipn.gov.pl/biuletyn/7/biuletyn7_3.html Informacja o śledztwach prowadzonych w OKŚZpNP w Łodzi w sprawach o zbrodnie popełnione przez funkcjonariuszy sowieckiego aparatu terroru]''; Biuletyn [[Institute of National Remembrance|IPN]], Vol. 7 - August 2001</ref>
:I've filed an RFC relating to the Taj Mahal at [[Talk:Taj Mahal#Request for Comment: Inclusion of minority points of view]]. Your comments would be welcome. [[User:Joopercoopers|Joopercoopers]] 18:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
* [[Brzeżany]] near [[Tarnopol]]: between [[June 22]] and [[July 1]] the crew of the local NKVD prison has executed without a trial approximately 300 Polish citizens, among them a large number of Ukrainians<ref name="Gałkiewicz"/>.
::I thank you for your message. However, i do not have any comment to offer as I am not interested in the issue. --[[User:Bhadani|Bhadani]] 18:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
* [[Grodno]]: on [[June 22]] the NKVD executed several dozen people in the local prison. The mass execution of the remaining 1700 prisoners was ended when the approach of the German army prompted the evacuation of the NKVD crew<ref name="Gałkiewicz"/>
* [[Hlybokaye|Berezwecz]] near [[Vitebsk]]<ref name="PWN"/>: on [[June 24]] the NKVD executed approximately 800 prisoners, most of them Polish citizens. Several thousands more perished during a [[death march]] to Taklinovo near [[Ulla]]<ref name="Berezwecz">{{pl icon}} Encyklopedia PWN, ''[http://encyklopedia.pwn.pl/7010_1.html BEREZWECZ]''</ref>.
* [[Oryol]]: In Sepetember over 150 political prisoners (among them [[Christian Rakovsky]], [[Maria Spiridonova]] and [[Olga Kameneva]]) were executed in Medvedevsky Forest near Oryol.
* [[Vilnius]]: after the German aggression the NKVD murdered a large number of prisoners of the infamous [[Lukiškės]] prison<ref name="Paszkowski">{{pl icon}} [[Bolesław Paszkowski]] (2005): ''[http://www.moto.gda.pl/strona.htm?id=454 Golgota Wschodu]''</ref>
* Cherven near [[Minsk]]: in late June the NKVD started an evacuation of all prisons in Minsk. Between [[June 24]] and [[June 27]] several thousand people were killed in Cherven and during the death marches<ref name="Januszczak">{{pl icon}} [[Joanna Januszczak]] ''[http://www.wspolnota-polska.org.pl/index.php?id=b99_9_2 Żalbiny w Czerwieni k. Mińska]'' in: ''Wspólnota Polska'' monthly</ref>
* [[Vinnitsa]]: more than 9,000 executed<ref name="Rhodes"/>.
* [[Lutsk]]: hundreds executed,
* Rainiai near [[Telšiai]], [[Lithuania]]: Up to 79 political prisoners killed in what is called the [[Rainiai massacre]] on [[June 24]] and the following day
* [[Tartu]], [[Estonia]]: Almost 250 detainees shot in the Gray House courtyard and Tartu prison on July 9, 1941 [http://www.expatexchange.com/lib.cfm?articleID=2265&start=1732&page=1].
* [[Vileyka]]: several dozen people, mostly political prisoners, sick and wounded, were executed prior to the departure of the Soviet guards on [[June 24]]<ref name="Siedlecki">{{pl icon}} {{cite book | author = [[Julian Siedlecki]] | others = [[Edward Raczyński]]
| title = Losy Polaków w ZSRR w latach 1939-1986 | year = 1990 | edition = 3 | publisher = Gryf Publications | ___location = London
| pages = 59}} as cited in: {{cite journal | author = Tadeusz Krahel | year = | month = | title = Zginęli w końcu czerwca 1941 roku | journal = Czas Miłosierdzia | volume = | issue = | url = http://www.bialystok.opoka.org.pl/czas/arch1/art/kaplani.htm
| accessdate = 2006-06-02 }}</ref>
* [[Sambor]]: 570 killed<ref name="Kowalik">{{pl icon}} {{cite journal | author =Helena Kowalik | year =2004 | month =November | title =Jaki znak twój? | journal =Przegląd | volume =47/2004 | issue =2004-11-15 | pages = | id = }}</ref>
 
:I am not oppossed to inclusion of discussion of Oak - as I've just said. I just don't think it should be legitimised by the way it's included. It's part of the history of interpretation of the building, just as the theories about Geronimo Veroneo are. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 23:36, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 
==Notes and references==
== Re: Image:Mughal painting2.jpg ==
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==See also==
That's because the concerned image is a "touched-up" one and is not released in [[Public Domain]]. --[[User:Deepak gupta|Incman]]|[[User talk:Deepak gupta|वार्ता]] 01:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
* [[List of massacres]]
* [[Katyn massacre]]
* [[Kurapaty]]
* [[War crimes]]
 
[[Category:Massacres]]
== Taj Mahal ==
[[Category:History of Poland (1939–1945)]]
 
[[Category:History of Ukraine]]
Okay, the page has been semi-protected for now. Tell me whenever you feel protection can be lifted. '''[[User:Nishkid64|<span style="background:#009;color:#7FFF00">Nish</span><span style="background:cyan;color:#009">kid</span>]][[User talk:Nishkid64|<span style="background:orange;color:navy blue">64</span>]]''' 20:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
[[Category:NKVD]]
 
[[Category:Soviet executions]]
== Taj Mahal Improvement Plan ==
[[Category:Soviet World War II crimes]]
 
[[Category:Polish-Soviet relations]]
It occurs to me that the best way forward to move the article to FA status is another peer review. The previous peer review brought out peers mainly from Wikiproject:India. Since its inclusion in WikiProject Architecture, it has not had peer review. Frankly many of the original peer review comments reflected the POV of the editors. It's my experience that most of Wikiproject India editors are bright, enthusiastic, industrious high-schoolers from India, with limited experience. Many have been influenced by the Hindutva movement -- maybe not embracing it, but clearly it impacts their judgement. I think that many of their comments reflect their enthusiasm and natural understandable biases that do not particularly see the relevance of a design-based article, and imagine (without basis) that a much more wonderful article might be written.
[[Category:Political repression in the Soviet Union]]
 
[[Category:Soviet occupation]]
I think the architecture articles that have reached FA status are a better benchmark for the Taj Mahal article. A peer review where WikiProject Architecture editors provided feedback would, I think, drive more quality into the process.
 
As for the failed FA: there were FOUR (4) total comments. WTF. 2 of the 4 were "me-too's". This is NOT a relevant sample, IMO. I was FAR more discouraged by the lack of comments than by their content.
 
Since you appear to have some standing in WikiProject Architecture, may I suggest that you invite a new peer review, and see what you can do about drumming up comments from that group. I will work with you to adapt the article to support useful PR comments. Then another FA attempt should have a better chance at success.
 
It is relevant to note that translations of the article are reaching FA status in various non-english versions of the WP. --[[User:Nemonoman|Nemonoman]] 15:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 
:You raise some good points here. Wikipedia is a collobarative project in its conception. In my view however, the best articles are written in the early stages by maybe just one or two editor who add the content and then get some others in their private 'editors circle' to copyedit for prose, punctuation, spelling etc (Paul said he'd help out with this). That way you get a more singular 'voice' to the article and its easier to present a thesis rather than trying to accomodate every man and his dog's ideas from the off. For the Taj I'd like to think about what the general reader might already know about the building and then write an article which discusses to what extent what they already know, is born out by scholastic opinion.
 
:I don't really see the point of taking the article to [[WP:ARCHPR]] right now. The reason is, I think that the process is useful for getting ideas for what to add to the article and picking out the technical aspects of why the article doesn't conform to process, ''after'' the main editors have got the article to a quality they are happy with.
 
:I'm flattered you think I have some standing at WP:ARCH but the reality is, it's quite a quiet wikiproject - there's probably me and 2 or 3 others that really contribute there. That said, I've been at wikipedia for nearly a year now and I've crossed paths with quite a few architecture editors that aren't part of the project, and in my opinion, are excellent editors. So my suggestion is that you and I peer review the article now against the FA criteria. We'll get it peer reviewed when we're both really happy with the article and then take it to FAC
 
:The other thing is, whilst dialogue is good between editors, it can become an end in itself - time spent in discussion on talk pages is time not editing future FA candidates, but having clear direction is good too. So I'll start our review here - [[User:Joopercoopers/Taj Mahal/Review]].
 
:This is kind of what I was trying to say last night but I was rather tired, it was quite a stressful day yesterday. High schoolers in india aren't the only problem we have on wikipedia.
:Kind regards, --[[User:Joopercoopers|Joopercoopers]] 19:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
::As a total outsider, I have made the rearrangement I suggested earlier, making one section more concise, and moving some text to the article on Oak.'''[[User:DGG|DGG]]''' 23:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 
==Lahauri==
 
I'm really sorry this has taken so long - I've been very tied up lately with teaching and job interviews, and the passage is crammed full of horribly elaborate court titles. I should have a decent version available in a day or two, but one thing I can definitely say: ''Manzil'' does '''not''' mean a mansion in Persian - it means a halting-place or caravanserai (see [http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.6:1:4017.steingass here]). Given that the passage in question then goes on to describe the construction of the Taj in some detail, you have to wonder at the motives of a scholar who could translate it this way - and the whole "Tejomahalya" Shiva Temple flim-flam? How do they explain that I wonder. [[User:Sikandarji|Sikandarji]] 16:39, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 
== Taj Mahal ==
 
RFCs usually aren't closed; in most cases, after some time, it becomes clear where the discussion is headed, and/or a good compromise is worked out. From policy, since most people appear to favor removal of this particular statement, the burden is on those who wish to retain it to provide a suitable source. I would suggest, if there are any eminent scientists or historians who make the claim, to add a short statement somewhere in the "history of" section. If a bunch of well-meaning but non-expert people on the internet make the claim, well, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Polling really doesn't help much on such an issue. I can refer you to [[WP:V]] and [[WP:WEIGHT]]. HTH! [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><font color="#DD0000">&gt;<font color="#FF6600">R<font color="#FF9900">a<font color="#FFCC00">d<font color="#FFEE00">i</font>a</font>n</font>t</font>&lt;</font></b>]] 10:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 
== Taj Mahal ==
 
I have unprotected the page. Thanks for letting me know. '''[[User:Nishkid64|<span style="background:#009;color:#7FFF00">Nish</span><span style="background:cyan;color:#009">kid</span>]][[User talk:Nishkid64|<span style="background:orange;color:navy blue">64</span>]]''' 18:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
:Many thanks, we'll see how it goes......--[[User:Joopercoopers|Joopercoopers]] 02:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 
==''Issue de table''==
Well, the [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Medieval cuisine|feast]] is over for this time, and off we go into a period of intellectual fast. But mayhaps will we meet again some day to make more medieval merry! My regards to you for your comments at the nomination.
 
sincerely,<br>
[[User:Peter Isotalo|Peter]] <sup>[[User talk:Peter Isotalo|Isotalo]]</sup> 07:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 
 
== Monaco ==
 
Thanks for the revert, I seem to have a new friend, I have explained on is page why I anotated the images in that fashion - hopefully that is an end to it. [[User:Giano II|Giano]] 14:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
:The way it is now, the article is frankly horrendous. No other well done articles in Wikipedia look like that mess. I can sustain that original way of referring in-text to images, but absolutely not the way they are placed (not to speak about the messy variation of sizes), and all those images of people: these are justified in a magazine article, not in an encyclopedical one. Bye. --[[User:Attilios|Attilios]] 16:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)