Talk:List of sovereign states and Colorado Avalanche: Difference between pages

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2001-present: mentioned granato as head coach
 
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{{NHL Team
{{Talkheader}}
|team_name = Colorado Avalanche
{{WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology|class=list}}{{V0.5|class=NA|category=Geography}}
|bg_color = #8B2942
|text_color = white
|logo_image = Colorado Avalanche.gif
|conference = [[Western Conference (NHL)|Western]]
|division = [[Northwest Division (NHL)|Northwest]]
|founded = [[1972-73 WHA season|1972]]
|history = '''[[Quebec Nordiques]]'''<br>[[1972-73 WHA season|1972]] - [[1994-95 NHL season|1995]]<br>'''Colorado Avalanche'''<br> [[1995-96 NHL season|1995]] - present
|arena = [[Pepsi Center]]
|city = [[Denver, Colorado]]
|media_affiliates = [[Altitude Sports and Entertainment|Altitude]]<br>[[KKFN|KKFN (950 AM)]]
|team_colors = Burgundy, Steel Blue, Black, Silver, and White
|Rival = [[Detroit Red Wings]]
|owner = {{flagicon|USA}} [[Stan Kroenke]]
|general_manager = {{flagicon|CAN}} [[Francois Giguere]]
|head_coach = {{flagicon|CAN}} [[Joel Quenneville]]
|president = [[Pierre Lacroix]]
|captain = {{flagicon|CAN}} [[Joe Sakic]]
|minor_league_affiliates = [[Lake Erie Monsters]] ([[American Hockey League|AHL]])<br />[[Arizona Sundogs]] ([[Central Hockey League|CHL]])
|stanley_cups = [[1995-96 NHL season|1995-96]], [[2000-01 NHL season|2000-01]]
|conf_titles = [[1995-96 NHL season|1995-96]], [[2000-01 NHL season|2000-01]]
|division_titles = [[1995-96 NHL season|1995-96]], [[1996-97 NHL season|1996-97]], [[1997-98 NHL season|1997-98]], [[1998-99 NHL season|1998-99]], [[1999-00 NHL season|1999-00]], [[2000-01 NHL season|2000-01]], [[2001-02 NHL season|2001-02]], [[2002-03 NHL season|2002-03]]
}}
The '''Colorado Avalanche''' are a professional [[ice hockey]] team based in [[Denver, Colorado]], [[United States]]. They are members of the [[Northwest Division (NHL)|Northwest Division]] of the [[Western Conference (NHL)|Western Conference]] of the [[National Hockey League]] (NHL). The Avalanche have won the [[Stanley Cup]] twice, in 1996 and 2001. The franchise was founded in [[Quebec City|Quebec]] and were the [[Quebec Nordiques]] until moving to [[Denver, Colorado]] in 1995. The Avalanche have won 8 division titles and had gone to the playoffs in each of their first 10 seasons in the NHL, with the streak ending in 2007.<ref>{{cite web |title =Colorado Avalanche History|url =http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/teams/history/COL|publisher =CBS Sportsline|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> The Avalanche are also notable for being the first team in NHL history to win the Stanley Cup their first season after a re-___location.
 
From the time of their move to Denver in 1995, until the end of the 1998-99 season, the Avalanche played their home games at [[McNichols Sports Arena|McNichols Arena]]. Since then, the Avalanche have called the [[Pepsi Center]] home. The Avalanche have a notable rivalry with the [[Detroit Red Wings]], partly due to both teams having met each other five times in seven years in the Western Conference playoffs between 1996 and 2002.<ref>{{cite news |title =Welcome to NHL's nastiest rivalry|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=RM&p_theme=rm&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB4E6E5FAB223F2&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =Kravitz, Bob|publisher =Rocky Mountain News|date =1996-12-18|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref>
{| class="infobox" width="270px"
|-
!align="center" colspan="2"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
----
|-
|
* [[Talk:List of national flags/Archive01]]
* [[Talk:List of sovereign state flags/Archive 2]]
* [[Talk:List of sovereign state flags/Archive 3]]
----
* [[Talk:List of sovereign states/Archive]] for old and recent dicussions.
* [[Talk:list of sovereign states/requested move]] for a withdrawn request to move. Proposed was a move to [[List of countries]]. Instead of this move a separate article was created. Therefore I have withdrawn the request for a move. [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 21:36, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
* [[Talk:List of sovereign states/Archive 2]]
* [[Talk:List of sovereign states/Archive 3]]
|}<!--Template:Archivebox-->
 
==Franchise history==
===Quebec Nordiques (1972-1995)===
{{see also|Quebec Nordiques}}
The Quebec Nordiques were one of the [[World Hockey Association]]'s original teams when the league began play in [[1972-73 WHA season|1972]]. Though first awarded to a group in [[San Francisco]], the team quickly moved to [[Quebec City]] when the [[California]] deal soured due to financial and arena problems.<ref name="whanordiques">{{cite web |title =Quebec Nordiques|url =http://www.whahockey.com/nordiques.html|publisher =WHA Hockey|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> During their seven WHA seasons, the Nordiques won the [[Avco World Trophy]] once, in [[1976-77 WHA season|1977]] and lost the finals once, in [[1974-75 WHA season|1975]].<ref>{{cite web |title =WHA Yearly Standings|url =http://www.whahockey.com/whayearlystandings.html|publisher =WHA Hockey|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Two years later, in [[1979-80 NHL season|1979]], they entered the NHL, along with the WHA's [[Edmonton Oilers]], [[Hartford Whalers]], and [[Winnipeg Jets]].<ref>{{cite web |title =From the WHA to the NHL |url =http://www.nhl.com/history/062279.html|publisher =NHL|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref>
 
After making the postseason for seven consecutive years, from [[1980-81 NHL season|1981]] to [[1986-87 NHL season|1987]], the Nordiques fell into the league's basement.<ref name="nordiquesrecord">{{cite web |title =Quebec Nordiques Almanac|url =http://www.nordiquespreservation.com/record.html|publisher =Nordiques Preservation|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> In [[1991 NHL Entry Draft|1991]], for the third straight draft, Quebec had the first overall selection.<ref>{{cite web |title =NHL Entry Draft First Round Selections 1980-89|url =http://www.nhl.com/futures/firstround80_89.html#89|publisher =NHL|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref><ref>{{cite web |title =NHL Entry Draft First Round Selections 1990-99|url =http://www.nhl.com/futures/firstround90_99.html|publisher =NHL|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Although [[Eric Lindros]], the draft's top-ranked player, had made it clear he did not wish to play for the Nordiques, they drafted him anyway.<ref>{{cite news |title =A look back: 1991|url =http://www.nhl.com/futures/2006draft/lookback_91_053106.html|author =Roarke,Shawn P.|publisher =NHL|date =2006-05-31|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Lindros did not even wear the jersey for the press photographs, only holding it when it was presented to him.<ref name="lindrosnhl">{{cite news |title =As expected, Quebec selects Lindros No.1|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=NewsLibrary&p_multi=DSNB&d_place=DSNB&p_theme=newslibrary2&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0F360039496DAD62&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =1991-06-23|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> On advice from his mother, Lindros refused to sign a contract and began a holdout that would last over a year. On June 30, 1992, he was traded to the [[Philadelphia Flyers]] in exchange for five players, the rights to Swedish prospect [[Peter Forsberg]], two first-round draft picks, and $15 million ([[United States dollar|USD]]).<ref>{{cite web |title =Eric Lindros profile|url =http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8458515&tab=crst|publisher =NHL|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> The Lindros trade is seen (at least in hindsight) as one of the most one-sided deals in NHL history, and a major foundation for the Nordiques/Avalanche franchise successes over the next decade<ref>{{cite news |title =A Franchise deal. Lindros trade laid foundation for Nordiques/Avalanche drive to berth in Stanley Cup Final|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=RM&p_theme=rm&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB4E536B44A621D&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =Benton, Jim|publisher =Rocky Mountain News|date =1996-06-06|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> and turned the Nordiques from one of the weakest teams in the NHL to a Stanley Cup contender almost overnight. In the first season after the trade, the [[1992-93 NHL season]], the Nordiques reached the playoffs for the first time in six years and would do so two seasons later.
== "List by country" navigational box ==
 
While the team experienced on-ice success, the team was far less successful off the ice. Quebec City was the smallest market in the league and in 1995,<ref name="canadianencyc">{{cite news |title =Nordiques Move to Colorado|url =http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010425|author =Deacon, James|publisher =[[Maclean's]]|date =1995-05-06|accessdate =2007-05-11}}</ref> team owner [[Marcel Aubut]] asked for a bailout from Quebec's provincial government<ref>{{cite news |title =Quebec's Government Plans Bailout to keep Nordiques from moving|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=PD&s_site=twincities&p_multi=SP&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB5DDC4964DA9E0&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =1994-04-09|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> as well as a new publicly funded arena.<ref name="canadianencyc"/> The bailout fell through and Aubut subsequently sold the team to a group of investors in [[Denver]].<ref>{{cite news |title =NHL's Nordiques sold, moving west to Denver \ Comsat Entertainment Group bought the team. Quebec had refused to fund a new hockey arena|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=PI&s_site=philly&p_multi=PI&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB32BFD6ADCFF94&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =|publisher =Philadelphia Inquirer|date =1995-05-26|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> On May 1995, the COMSAT Entertainment Group, announced an agreement in principle to purchase the team.<ref name="mediaguidemisc">{{cite web |title =Miscellaneous/Community/Altitude|url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/PDF/321134_CA_MG_325-336.pdf|publisher =Colorado Avalanche|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref>. The deal became official on [[July 1]], [[1995]] and 12,000 season tickets were sold in the 37 days after the announcement of the move to Denver.<ref name="mediaguidemisc"/> The franchise was presented as the Colorado Avalanche on [[August 10]] [[1995]].<ref name="mediaguidemisc"/> They became the second NHL franchise to play in the city: the [[Colorado Rockies (NHL)|Colorado Rockies]] played in town from 1976 to 1982 when they moved to [[New Jersey]] to become the [[New Jersey Devils|Devils]].
I would like to change the vertical "List by country" navigational box on the right of this page to a horizontal one at the bottom. Please discuss at [[Template talk:Lists by country]]. --[[User:Chochopk|ChoChoPK]] (球球PK) ([[User talk:Chochopk|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Chochopk|contrib]]) 12:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 
===Colorado Avalanche (1995-Present)===
== Is Transnistria a sovereign state? ==
[[Image:Patrick_Roy_1999.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Goaltender [[Patrick Roy]], the winningest net minder in the NHL, played for the Avalanche from 1995-2003.]]
 
====1995-2001====
According to the Montevideo convention, a state should be able to establish relations with other states. Transnistria is recognized as a state by nobody. In fact, it is internationally recognized as a region of Moldova. Compare that with, say, Texas, which is internationally recognized as a part of the USA. Texas, too, has relations with other sovereign states, but not as a sovereign state itself. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 10:52, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
After buying the team, the COMSAT Entertainment Group organized its Denver sports franchises, the Avalanche and the [[Denver Nuggets]] under a separate subsidiary, Ascent Entertainment Group Inc., which went public in 1995, with 80% of its stocks bought by COMSAT and the other 20% to be available on [[NASDAQ]].<ref name="nuggetscompanyhistory">{{cite web |title =Denver Nuggets - Company History|url =http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Denver-Nuggets-Company-History.html|publisher =Funding Universe|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref>
 
The Colorado Avalanche played their first game in the [[McNichols Sports Arena]] in [[Denver]] on [[October 6]], [[1995]] winning 3-2 against the Detroit Red Wings.<ref>{{cite web |title = October 6, 1995 - Detroit Red Wings vs. Colorado Avalanche gamesheet|url =http://www.avalanchedb.com/gamesheets/95-96/199501.htm|publisher =Colorado Avalanche Database|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> Led by [[Captain (ice hockey)|captain]] [[Joe Sakic]], forward [[Peter Forsberg]], and defenseman [[Adam Foote]] on the ice and [[Pierre Lacroix]] as the [[General Manager (ice hockey)|general manager]] and [[Marc Crawford]] as the [[head coach]], the Avalanche got stronger when former [[Montreal Canadiens]] goalie [[Patrick Roy]] joined the team. Feeling humiliated for being left in the net after having let in 9 goals in 26 shots during a Canadiens game against the Red Wings, Roy joined the Avalanche on [[December 6]] [[1995]], together with ex-Montreal captain [[Mike Keane]] in a trade for [[Jocelyn Thibault]], [[Martin Rucinsky]] and [[Andrei Kovalenko]].<ref>{{cite news |title =Roy gets call he's in Hall|url =http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nhl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23920_4810040,00.html|author =Sadowski, Rick|publisher =Rocky Mountain News|date =2006-06-29|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Roy would prove a pivotal addition for Colorado in the years to come.
PS: I have also read the previous threads concerning Transnistria and Northern Cyprus. There is a fundamental difference between the two. Northern Cyprus is recognized by another sovereign state (Turkey), whereas Transnistria never has been. So, if you argue that "Transnistria is de facto independent", I say OK, but when you say "sovereign state", I say no: This notion is clearly defined, and the condition 4 is not met. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
The Avalanche finished the regular season with a 47-25-10 record for 104 points, won the [[Pacific Division (NHL)|Pacific Division]] and finished second in the [[Western Conference (NHL)|Western Conference]]. Colorado progressed to the playoffs and won the series against the [[Vancouver Canucks]], the [[Chicago Blackhawks]] and [[Presidents' Trophy]] winners Detroit Red Wings. In the [[Stanley Cup]] [[Stanley Cup Final|Final]], the Avalanche met the [[Florida Panthers]], who were also in their first Stanley Cup final. The Avalanche swept the series 4-0. In Game Four, during the third [[overtime (ice hockey)|overtime]] and after more than 100 minutes of play with no goals, defenseman [[Uwe Krupp]] scored to claim the franchise's first Cup.<ref>{{cite news |title =No stopping the Avalanche - Colorado completes Cup sweep of Panthers with 3OT victory|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=SAEC&p_theme=saec&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB03D7A86BE23F7&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =Ulman, Howard|publisher =Associated Press|date =1996-06-11|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> [[Joe Sakic]] was the playoff's scoring leader with 34 points (18 goals and 16 assists) and won the [[Conn Smythe Trophy]], awarded to the most valuable player to his team during the playoffs. The 1996 Stanley Cup was the first major professional championship won by a Denver team.<ref name="mediaguidemisc"/> With the Stanley Cup win, [[Russia]]ns [[Alexei Gusarov]] and [[Valeri Kamensky]] and Swede Peter Forsberg became members of the [[Triple Gold Club]], the exclusive group of ice hockey players who have won [[Ice hockey at the Olympic Games|Olympic gold]], [[Ice Hockey World Championship|World Championship gold]], and the Stanley Cup.<ref name="triplegoldclub">{{cite web |title =Triple Gold Club|url =http://www.iihf.com/archive/TGC.pdf|publisher =[[International Ice Hockey Federation]]|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref>
PS2: As concerns other "international relations", take a look at [[Transnistria#International relations]], and you will see that Transnistria is not capable of having relations with other states, unlike, e.g. Northern Cyprus. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 14:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
In [[1996-97 NHL season|1996-97]], Colorado won, not only their Pacific Division, but the [[Presidents' Trophy]] as well for finishing the regular season with the best record of the entire league: 49-24-9 for 107 points. The team was also the league's best scoring with an average of 3.38 goals scored per game. The Avalanche met the two lowest seeds of the Western Conference in the first two rounds of the playoffs: the [[Chicago Blackhawks]] and the [[Edmonton Oilers]], who were beaten 4-2 and 4-1. During a rematch of the previous year Conference Final, the Avalanche lost against the Detroit Red Wings in a 4-2 series. The Red Wings went on to sweep the Stanley Cup final just as Colorado had done the year before. [[Sandis Ozolinsh]] was elected for the league's first all-star team at the end of the season.
: To Dpotop and other Romanian editors: Not only is Transnistria '''capable''' of having relations with other states, it is '''currently having these relations''' with other states. Last week alone, it signed 16 agreements with various government ministries in Russia. It also participates in status settlement talks with Ukraine, Moldova, USA, and the EU. It has an office of a permanent mission (the [[OSCE]] in its capital, Tiraspol. Some development organizations offer advice and / or funding, and try to influence policy. It receives official visits from numerous foreign ministries (recently: Sweden, Belgium, Spain). See the website of its Foreign Ministry if in doubt. It has names and pictures, and even includes details of signed agreements which you can download. Danida, from the Danish foreign ministry, is involved a program to deter human trafficking. In 2006, half a dozen countries submitted aid. Even the U.S. State Department paid for cargo of humanitarian supplies in mid-2006. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:11, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
In 1997, financial problems led to the selling of the Ascent Entertainment by COMSAT to the AT&T's Liberty Media Group for $755 million. Liberty put its sports assets immediately for sale.<ref name="nuggetscompanyhistory"/>
:: If any type of international relation would be acceptable, then the USA states qualify according to Montevideo. And not only them, but also French departments and Romanian judets, which take part in European regions, etc. What Montevideo requires is probably international recognition of the state. In the case of Transnistria this is not the case. You talk about conflict settlement. But the Palestinian authority has participated in such talks, too. However, it does not qualify, because of territory (disputed, just like in Transnistria) and foreign relations (none recognized as sovereign, just like in Transnistria).
:: Again, note that I'm not disputing the "de facto independence", but the sovereignty, according to Montevideo and to standards applied to other states and statal entities. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:53, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I think you want Article I of the Montevideo convention to be something it is not. What it defines is more or less the ''de facto state''. If you read the article on the [[Montevideo Convention]], you will see that:
 
In the following season, Colorado won the Pacific Division with a 39-26-17 record for 95 points. The Avalanche sent the largest delegation of the NHL to the [[1998 Winter Olympics]] [[Ice hockey at the 1998 Winter Olympics|ice hockey tournament]] in [[Nagano]], [[Japan]]: 10 players representing 7 countries and coach [[Marc Crawford]] for Canada.<ref>{{cite news |title =Avalanche blame Olympics for slide that won't stop|url =http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n44_v222/ai_21251719|author =Elliott, Helene|publisher =[[Sporting News|The Sporting News]]|date =1998-11-02|accessdate =2007-07-16}}</ref> [[Milan Hejduk]] won the Gold Medal for [[Czech national ice hockey team|Czech Republic]], Alexei Gusarov and Valeri Kamensky got the Silver Medal for [[Russian national ice hockey team|Russia]] and [[Jari Kurri]] won the Bronze Medal for [[Finnish national men's ice hockey team|Finland]].<ref name="recordbook">{{cite web |title =Franchise Records|url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/PDF/321134_CA_MG_163-220.pdf|publisher =Colorado Avalanche|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> Colorado lost in their first playoff round against the [[Edmonton Oilers]] in a 7 game series, after having led the series 3-1. [[Peter Forsberg]] was the league's second highest scorer in the regular season with 91 points (25 goals and 66 assists) and was elected for the league's first all star team. After the end of the season, head coach Marc Crawford rejected the team's offer of a two-year deal.<ref>{{cite news |title =Crawford Bows Out - Avalanche Coach turns down team's offer of two-year deal|url =http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-7034317.html|author =Sadowski, Rick|publisher =[[Rocky Mountain News]]|date =1998-05-28|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> [[Bob Hartley]] was hired to the head coach position in June 1998.
::::''the first sentence of article 3 explicitly states that "The political existence of the state is independent of recognition by the other states."''
 
In [[1998-99 NHL season|1998-99]], with the addition of the [[Nashville Predators]] to the league, the NHL realigned their divisions and the Colorado Avalanche were put in the new [[Northwest Division (NHL)|Northwest Division]]. Despite a slow 2-6-1 start, Colorado finished with a 44-28-10 record for 98 points, won the Northwest Division and finished second in the Western Conference. After beating the [[San Jose Sharks]] and the [[Detroit Red Wings]] in the first two rounds, Colorado met Presidents' Trophy winners [[Dallas Stars]] in the Conference Final, where they lost after a seven game series. Peter Forsberg was again elected to the league's first all-star team and [[Chris Drury]] won the [[Calder Memorial Trophy]] for the best rookie of the season. Together with [[Milan Hejduk]], both were elected for the [[NHL All-Rookie Team]] at the end of the season.
:::[[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 16:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
It was in the [[1999-2000 NHL season|1999-2000 season]] that the Colorado Avalanche played their first game in the new [[Pepsi Center]], that cost 160 million [[US dollars]].<ref name="ksepepsicenter">{{cite web |title =KSE/Pepsi Center|url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/PDF/321134_CA_MG_299-312.pdf|publisher =Colorado Avalanche|accessdate =2007-06-13}}</ref> Milan Hejduk scored the first goal of a 2-1 victory against the [[Boston Bruins]] on [[October 13]] [[1999]].<ref>{{cite web |title =2001 NHL All-Star Game - Pepsi Center Facts|url =http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/2001/all_star/pepsi_center/|publisher =[[Sports Illustrated]]|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> The Avalanche finished the season with a 42-28-11-1 record for 96 points and won the Northwest Division. Between [[January 10]] and [[February 7]], the Avalanche had their longest winning streak ever with 12 games.<ref name="recordbook"/> Before the playoffs, the Avalanche strengthened their defense for a run towards the Stanley Cup. On March 6, [[1999-2000 NHL season|2000]], the [[Boston Bruins]] traded future [[Hockey Hall of Fame]]r defenseman [[Ray Bourque]] and [[Forward (ice hockey)|forward]] [[Dave Andreychuk]] to Colorado for [[Brian Rolston]], [[Martin Grenier]], [[Samuel Pahlsson]], and a first-round draft pick. Bourque, who had been a Bruin since [[1979-80 NHL season|1979-80]], requested a trade to a contender for one last shot at a Stanley Cup.<ref name="bourque">{{cite news |title =For Bourque, at long last Stanley!|url =http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=290833|author =Roarke, Shawn P.|publisher =[[National Hockey League|NHL]]|date =2007-03-22|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> However, and just as the year before, Colorado lost in the Conference Final against the Dallas Stars in a seven game series after beating both the Phoenix Coyotes and the Detroit Red Wings in 4-1 series. [[Joe Sakic]] won the [[Lester B. Pearson Award]] for the outstanding player of the regular season, elected by the members of the [[NHL Players Association]].
::::: I read that, but then what kind of relations are implied in the Montevideo convention by "capacity to enter into relations with the other states"? Is this the capacity to control its borders (Transnistria cannot do so, because Ukraine refuses it, asking Moldovan travel documents). BTW, Transnistrian passports are probably worthless, given that they are not recognized by other countries? Nope, Transnistria cannot enter into relations with other states. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
In July 2000, after years of intrigue and several failed negotiations, the Avalanche, the Denver Nuggets and the Pepsi Center were finally bought by business [[entrepreneur]] and [[Wal-Mart]] heir [[E. Stanley Kroenke|Stan Kroenke]] in a $450 million deal. Liberty retained only 6.5% stake of the sports franchises. The deal included a guarantee to the city of Denver that the teams would not be relocated for at least 25 years. After the deal, Kroenke organized his sports assets under Kroenke Sports Enterprises.<ref name="nuggetscompanyhistory"/>
Why exactly do we use Montevideo as our basis for the definition of a state? Assuming that Sephia karta and Mauco's interpretation of Montevideo is correct, then the definition includes a lot of places not generally considered to be sovereign states. As such, it seems clear that Montevideo does ''not'' provide a consensus definition of what is a sovereign state, and as such, we should steer clear of it, or at least of using it as our ''only'' basis for declaring whether a state is sovereign or not. The various "de facto" states ought to be listed separately. The current situation, where there is nothing to actually distinguish Abkhazia from Afghanistan in terms of their status, is unacceptable. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 16:57, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
The [[2000-01 NHL season|2000-01]] season was the best season the team has ever had. The Avalanche won the Northwest Division and captured their second Presidents' Trophy after having finished the regular season with 52-16-10-4 for 118 points. Joe Sakic finished the regular season with 118 points (54 goals and 64 assists), only three behind [[Jaromir Jagr]]'s 121 points. On [[February 4]], [[2001]], the Colorado Avalanche hosted the [[51st National Hockey League All-Star Game|51st NHL All-Star Game]]. [[Patrick Roy]], Ray Bourque and Joe Sakic played for the North America team, who won 14-12 against the World team, that featured Milan Hejduk and Peter Forsberg. All but Hejduk were part of the starting lineups.<ref name="recordbook"/> Before the playoffs, the Avalanche acquired star defenseman [[Rob Blake]] and center [[Steven Reinprecht]] from the [[Los Angeles Kings]] in exchange for [[Adam Deadmarsh]], [[Aaron Miller]] and their first-round [[2001 NHL Entry Draft|2001 Draft]] pick.<ref>{{cite news |title =Kings take Avs' Aulin to complete Blake trade|url =http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-72313179.html|author =Sadowski, Rick|publisher =Rocky Mountain News|date =2001-03-23|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> In the playoffs, Colorado swept their Conference Quarterfinal against the [[Vancouver Canucks]]. In the Conferece Semifinal, the Avalanche won the [[Los Angeles Kings]] in a seven game series, after having wasted a 3-1 lead. After the last game of the series, Peter Forsberg underwent surgery to remove a [[ruptured spleen|ruptured]] [[spleen]] and it was announced that he would not play until the following season. The injury was a huge upset for the team; former NHL goaltender [[Darren Pang]] considered it "devastating (...) to the Colorado Avalanche".<ref>{{cite news |title =Doctor: Full recovery is expected|url =http://espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2001/2001/0510/1194333.html|author =[[Associated Press]]|publisher =[[ESPN]]|date =2001-05-10|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> The team would overcome Forsberg's injury: in the Conference Final, Colorado won the [[St. Louis Blues]] in 4-1 series and progressed to the Stanley Cup Final, where they faced the [[New Jersey Devils]], the Stanley Cup holders. The Avalanche won the series 4-3, after winning the last game at the [[Pepsi Center]] 3-1. After being handed the Cup from [[NHL Commissioner]] [[Gary Bettman]], captain Joe Sakic immediately turned, and gave it to Ray Bourque, capping off Bourque's 22-year career with his only championship.<ref>{{cite news |title =Avalanche beat Devils to capture Stanley Cup|url =http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/cup01/games/2001-06-09-njcol.htm|author =Allen, Kevin|publisher =USA Today|date =2001-06-10|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Joe Sakic was the playoffs leading scorer with 26 points (13 goals and 13 assists). He won the [[Hart Memorial Trophy]], given to the league's most valuable player during the regular season, the [[Lady Byng Memorial Trophy]], awarded to the player that has shown the best sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with performance in play, the Lester B. Pearson Award and shared the [[NHL Plus/Minus Award]] with [[Patrik Elias]] of the Devils. Patrick Roy won the [[Conn Smythe Trophy]], awarded to the playoffs' most valuable player. [[Shjon Podein]] was awarded the [[King Clancy Memorial Trophy]] for significant humanitarian contributions to his community, namely his work on charitable organizations and his own children's foundation.<ref>{{cite web |title =2000-01 King Clancy Memorial Trophy - Podein, Shjon|url =http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SilverwareTrophyWinner.jsp?tro=KCT&year=2000-01|publisher =Legends of Hockey|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> Ray Bourque and Joe Sakic were elected to the league's first all-star team; Rob Blake was elected to the second all-star team.
Also, it's absurd that we list South Ossetia and not Palestine, which is recognized by dozens of countries. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 17:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
====2001-present====
:I agree with John. Only recognized countries should be in this list. The various "de facto" states, like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria, ought to be listed separately. We should create a separate list for them.--[[User:MariusM|MariusM]] 17:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Avslineup.jpeg|right|thumb|250px|Avalanche players warming up in 2006]]
The Avalanche have failed to reach the Stanley Cup Finals since 2001. In the [[2001-02 NHL season|2001-02 season]], the team finished the regular season with 99 points of a 45-28-8-1 record and won the Northwest Division. Colorado had the league's lowest goals conceded: 169, which makes an average per game of 2.06. The NHL season was interrupted once again for the [[2002 Winter Olympics]], in [[Salt Lake City]], [[Utah]]. The Colorado Avalanche had 9 players representing 6 countries. [[Canadian national men's hockey team|Canada]] won the [[Ice hockey at the 2002 Winter Olympics|ice hockey tournament]] and [[Rob Blake]], [[Adam Foote]] and [[Joe Sakic]] won Gold medals. [[American national men's hockey team|American]] [[Chris Drury]] got a silver medal.<ref name="recordbook"/> With the win, Blake and Sakic became members of the [[Triple Gold Club]].<ref name="triplegoldclub"/> After advancing through the first two rounds of the playoffs with a 4-2 series win against the [[Vancouver Canucks]] and a 4-3 series win against the [[San Jose Sharks]], the Avalanche met their rivals of the [[Detroit Red Wings]] in the playoffs for the 5th time in 7 years. In a seven game series, Colorado had a 3-2 lead after five games, but lost Game 6 at home 2-0 and then the Red Wings won the deciding game at home 7-0. Like in 1997, Detroit went on to win the Stanley Cup. [[Patrick Roy]] won the [[William M. Jennings Trophy]], given to the goaltenders of the team with fewest goals scored against. Roy was elected for the league's first all-star team, together with Joe Sakic; Rob Blake was elected for the second all-star team.
 
The following season, [[2002-03 NHL Season|2002-03]], saw the Avalanche claim the NHL record for most consecutive division titles, nine,<ref name="divtitrec">The 1994-95 Division title was won while the franchise was still in Quebec and together with the 8 titles the Avalanche won between 1995-96 and 2002-03 makes the record number of 9 consecutive division titles</ref> breaking the [[Montreal Canadiens]] streak of eight, won between 1974 and 1982.<ref>{{cite news |title =NHL Hockey: Colorado Avalanche Team Report|url =http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-99870515.html|author =|publisher =[[The Sports Network]]|date =2003-04-10|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> The division title came after a bad start by the team, that led to the exit of head coach [[Bob Hartley]], in December.<ref>{{cite news |title =Roy, Avs put clamps on Red Wings|url =http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/games/2003-02-06-avalanche-redwings_x.htm|author =Allen, Kevin|publisher =[[USA Today]]|date =2003-02-06|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> General Manager [[Pierre Lacroix]] promoted assistant coach [[Tony Granato]] to the head coach position.<ref>{{cite news |title =Avs bench change: Hartley out, Granato in|url =http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/avalanche/2002-12-18-hartley_x.htm|author =Brehm, Mike|publisher =[[USA Today]]|date =2002-18-12|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> The team's playoff spot seemed in doubt, at one point, but the Avalanche managed to finish with 105 points, ahead of the division rivals Vancouver Canucks by one. The race to the title was exciting, namely the second-to-last game of the season, as the Avalanche needed to win the game to stay in the race, and [[Milan Hejduk]] scored with 10 seconds left in overtime to beat the [[Anaheim Ducks|Anaheim]].<ref>{{cite news |title = Colorado 4, Anaheim 3|url = http://sportsline.com/nhl/gamecenter/recap/NHL_20030404_COL@ANA|author =| publisher =CBS Sportsline|dateG=2003-04-05|accessdate =2007-05-06}}</ref> The title was guaranteed in the final day of the regular season, when the Avalanche won the [[St. Louis Blues]] 5-2 and the Vancouver Canucks lost against the [[Los Angeles Kings]] 2-0.<ref>{{cite news |title =Avalanche win game, Northwest; Hejduk gets 50th|url =http://sportsline.com/nhl/gamecenter/recap/NHL_20030406_STL@COL|author =|publisher =CBS Sportsline|date =2003-04-06|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> In the playoffs, the Avalanche blew a 3-1 series lead over the [[Minnesota Wild]], and lost in overtime of Game 7 to be eliminated from the first round of the playoffs.<ref>{{cite news |title = Minnesota 3, Colorado 2|url =http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/nhl/recaps/2003/04/22/col_min/|author =|publisher =Sports Illustrated|dateG=2003-04-22|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Peter Forsberg won the [[Art Ross Trophy]] for the leading scorer of the regular season, which he finished with 106 points (29 goals, 77 assists). Forsberg also won the [[Hart Memorial Trophy]] for the regular season's most valuable player and shared the [[NHL Plus/Minus Award]] with teammate [[Milan Hejduk]]. Hejduk scored 50 goals to win the [[Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy]] for the best goalscorer of the regular season. Forsberg was elected to the league's first all-star team; Hejduk was elected to the second all-star team.
What this list is doing, so that all will know, is to focus on '''Customary International Law.''' The Montevideo Convention is merely one expression of this. Montevideo is the norm, not the exception. It is one example of where customary international law was codified. But the same principles date back much further than the Montevideo Convention of 1934, and they have been re-affirmed again and after AFTER the Montevideo Convention (1934) as well. The European Union's Badinter Commission of 1991 used the same principles. Non-EU countries such as Switzerland apply the same principles. It is public international law, and principles which are valid worldwide. In contrast, the "only recognized countries" statement opens up a whole new can of worms. Which is not needed, since international law has already dealt with the issue. And this list follows the principles of international law. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 19:55, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
After that season, Patrick Roy retired and the Avalanche signed star wingers [[Paul Kariya]] and [[Teemu Selänne|Teemu Selanne]] from the [[Anaheim Ducks|Mighty Ducks of Anaheim]].<ref>{{cite news |title =Patrick Roy retires after 18 years|url =http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2003/05/28/roy_retires030528.html|author =|publisher =[[Canadian Broadcasting Corporation|CBC]]|date =2003-05-28|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title =Avalanche sign Kariya, Selanne to one-year deals|url =http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/hockey/news/2003/07/03/avs_signings_ap/|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2003-07-03|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Both failed to live up to the expectations: Kariya spent most of the [[2003-04 NHL season|2003-04 season]] injured and Selanne scored only 32 points (16 goals and 16 assists) in 78 games.<ref>{{cite news |title =Passion is back for Selanne|url =http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/sports_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_83_5422098,00.html|author =Sadowski, Rick|publisher =[[Rocky Mountain News]]|date =2007-03-16|accessdate =2007-05-17}}</ref> Having "nine elite players"<ref>{{cite news |title =2003-2004 NHL Season Preview: Colorado Avalanche|url =http://proicehockey.about.com/cs/nhlseasonpreview/a/03_04avalanche.htm|author =Fitzpatrick, Jamie|publisher =[[About.com]]|date =2003-09-02|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref>, "the most talented top six forwards on one team since the days of the [[Edmonton Oilers]]"<ref>{{cite news |title =Avs' silver lining has a cloud|url =http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?page=2003pvw/col|author =Heika, Mike|publisher =[[ESPN]]|date =2003-09-24|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> was not good enough as the franchise failed to win the Northwest division title, ending the NHL record streak. The 40-22-13-7 record was good enough for 100 points, one less than the Northwest division winners Vancouver Canucks. Colorado won the Conference Quarterfinal against the [[Dallas Stars]] in a five game series, but lost in the Semifinal against the [[San Jose Sharks]] in a six game series. Joe Sakic became the only Avalanche player ever to be chosen as the All-Star Game Most Valuable Player during the [[54th National Hockey League All-Star Game|2004 NHL All-Star Game]], when he scored a [[hat-trick]]. Sakic was elected for the league's first all-star team at the end of the season and won the [[NHL/Sheraton Road Performer Award]].<ref name="recordbook"/>
:: Aren't you, somehow, picking the criteria that suits you? This list is made according to a given criterion: The Montevideo Convention. If you want to change the criterion, start another thread. My concern is the following: I believe that according to the Montevideo Convention, Transnistria should not be in this list. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 20:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
The [[2004-05 NHL season]] was canceled due to an [[2004-05 NHL lockout|unresolved lockout]]. During the lockout, many Avalanche players played in European leagues.<ref name="nhleuropelockout">{{cite web|url=http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=9951&hubname=|title=NHLers in Europe|publisher=TSN|accessdate=2006-10-31}}</ref> [[David Aebischer]] returned home with [[Alex Tanguay]] to play for [[Switzerland|Swiss]] club [[Hockey Club Lugano|HC Lugano]]; Milan Hejduk and Peter Forsberg returned to their former teams in their native countries, [[HC Pardubice]] and [[MODO Hockey]]. Other nine players of the Avalanche 2003-04 roster played in European league during the lockout.<ref name="nhleuropelockout"/>
::: No, I am not picking the criteria which suits me. This is a stable version of the article, which you are attempting to all of a sudden change. The reason why the Montevideo Convention is highlighted is because it is <u>representative</u> of customary international law. You can of course attempt to change international law, if you want. But that is outside of Wikipedia's realm. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
After the [[2004-05 NHL lockout]] and the implementation of a salary cap, the Avalanche were forced to let go some of their top players. Peter Forsberg and Adam Foote were lost to free agency in order to save some room in the cap for Joe Sakic and Rob Blake.<ref>{{cite news |title =Sakic, Blake to stay; Forsberg, Foote up in air|url =http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2116068|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2005-07-26|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Although the salary cap was a blow to one of the biggest spenders of the league,<ref>{{cite news |title =Winners, losers, undecided in wake of free-agent frenzy|url =http://www.sportsline.com/nhl/story/8790788|author =Goldstein, Wes|publisher =CBS Sportsline|date =2005-08-31|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> the Colorado Avalanche finished the [[2005-06 NHL season|2005-06 regular season]] with a 43-30-9 record for 95 points, good enough to finish second in the Northwest division, seven behind the [[Calgary Flames]] and tied with the Edmonton Oilers. The league stopped in February for the [[2006 Winter Olympics]] in [[Torino]], [[Italy]]. The Avalanche sent an NHL leading 11 players from 8 countries.<ref>{{cite news |title =East's snubs wait for
::::This is not a stable version. The article used to either list Abkhazia, et al, in a separate section, or foonoted in a different type face. Now they are just listed alongside everything else. And, pretty clearly, whatever customary international law may say, this is not how these things are generally recognized by most people on earth. For instance, every makes of world maps that I am aware of does not show any of these countries (well, I have one that shows North Cyprus, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some showing Somaliland, but I'm focusing right now on the former Soviet entities). I think this list ought to give the conventional list of sovereign states that is generally recognized by people throughout the world. Any criteria that gives us Transnistria and South Ossetia is clearly ''not'' the conventional way to do this, because Transnistria and South Ossetia are ''not'' normally considered to be proper sovereign states. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 14:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
their Olympic chances|url =http://www.nhl.com/features/east/east_notebook122705.html|author =Gormley, Chuck|publisher =NHL|date =2005-12-27|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> [[Finnish national men's ice hockey team|Finnish]] [[Antti Laaksonen]] got the silver medal, while [[Ossi Väänänen|Ossi Vaananen]] ended up not playing due to an injury; [[Czech national ice hockey team|Czech]] Milan Hejduk won a bronze medal.<ref name="recordbook"/> In the NHL playoffs, Colorado beat the team with the 2nd best record in the Western Conference, the Dallas Stars, in a five game series. In the Conference Semifinals, the Avalanche were swept for the first time ever, by the [[Mighty Ducks of Anaheim]]. The day after the loss, [[Pierre Lacroix]], who had been the General Manager of the franchise since 1994 when they were in Quebec, resigned and [[François Giguère|Francois Giguere]] was hired.<ref>{{cite news |title =Lacroix steps down as Colorado GM|url =http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/avalanche/2006-05-12-lacroix-resigns_x.htm|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2006-05-12|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref><ref>{{cite news |title =Avs hire Giguere as team's general manager|url =http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2456902|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2006-05-24|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> Lacroix remains to this day as President of the franchise.<ref>{{cite web |title =Pierre Lacroix Profile|url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/Team/StaffBio.aspx?SID=7|publisher =Colorado Avalanche|accessdate =2007-02-25}}</ref>
 
By the beginning of the [[2006-07 NHL season|2006-07 season]] Joe Sakic and Milan Hejduk were the only two remaining members from the 2001 Stanley Cup winning squad. Joe Sakic is the only player left from the team's days in Quebec (though Hejduk was drafted by the Nordiques), but [[Paul Stastny]], son of Nordiques legend [[Peter Stastny]], also provides a link to the past. The Avalanched missed the playoffs for the first time in their history. The team had a 15-2-2 run in the last 19 games of the season to keep their playoffs hopes alive until the penultimate day of the season. A 4-2 loss against the [[Nashville Predators]] on April 7, with Peter Forsberg assisting the game winning goal scored by Paul Kariya, knocked Colorado out of the playoff race.<ref>{{cite news |title =Predators 4, Avalanche 2|url =http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=Recap&gameNumber=1225&season=20062007&gameType=2|author =|publisher =[[Associated Press]]|date =2007-04-07|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> The team won the last game of the season against the Calgary Flames on the following day and finished 4th in the Northwest Division and 9th in the Western Conference with a 44-31-7 record for 95 points, one less than the eight seed Calgary. During that last game of the season, Joe Sakic scored a goal and two assists and became the second-oldest player in NHL history to reach 100 points, behind only [[Gordie Howe]], who had 103 points at age 40 in the 1968-69 season.<ref>{{cite news |title =Avalanche 6, Flames 3|url =http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=Recap&gameNumber=513&season=20062007&gameType=2|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2007-04-08|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> Until the Avalanche's 2006-2007 season, no team in the history of the NHL had ever made it to 95 points without earning a spot in the playoffs.<ref>{{cite news |title = Avs Win Season Finale |url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/GameDay/BoxScore.aspx?PGID=93&NID=893|author =|publisher =Associated Press|date =2007-04-08|accessdate =2007-06-17}}</ref> In the [[Eastern Conference (NHL)|Eastern Conference]], three teams progressed to the [[2007 NHL playoffs|playoffs]] with less than 95 points: the [[New York Rangers]] (94), the [[Tampa Bay Lightning]] (93), and the [[New York Islanders]] (92).
::::: I am quite sure that the stable version of the articles does include them. I have edited here, on and off, for the better part of 2006 and have frequently referred to this list. If I recall correctly, however, the unrecognized states were listed in italics and had a footnote next to them. This is how it is done on [[List of countries]], too. But their inclusion is part of the stable version, as I think that a check of the history log will show. Longtime editors might want to comment on this. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
====What does "capacity to enter into relationsRivalry with the otherDetroit states"Red means?=Wings===
In [[1995-96 NHL season|1996]], the Colorado Avalanche met the [[Detroit Red Wings]] in the Western Conference Finals and won the series 4-2. During Game 6, as Red Wings player [[Kris Draper]] was skating toward the bench, he was checked into the boards face-first by Avalanche player [[Claude Lemieux]].<ref name="bloodfeud">{{cite book | last =Dater| first = Adrian| title =Blood Feud: Detroit Red Wings vs. Colorado Avalanche| publisher =Taylor Trade Publishing| date =2006| url =http://www.denverpost.com/books/ci_5106839| isbn =1589793196}}</ref> As a result, Draper had to undergo facial reconstructive surgery, and had to have his jaw wired shut for five weeks.<ref name="avsrw10y">{{cite news |title =Happy anniversary to Red Wings, Avalanche|url =http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=neumann/070326|author =Neumann, Thomas|publisher =ESPN|date =2007-03-26|accessdate =2007-03-27}}</ref> After the incident, Lemieux received many threats from Red Wings players and fans, including goalie [[Chris Osgood]].<ref name="bloodfeud"/>
I believe the entire problem lies in the understanding of this expression. My oppinion is the following: Transnistria does not have this capacity to enter into relations with the other states. Transnistria does not have the capacity to control its foreign commerce, as proves the Ukrainian requirement for Moldovan papers. And from what I know, Transnistria does not have the basic capacity of issuing <i> de facto</i> accepted passports (this is why every other Transnistrian as a Russian/Moldovan/other passport). [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 20:41, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
In the following season, in the last regular season meeting between the Avalanche and Red Wings on March 26, 1997, a brawl known as [[Brawl in Hockeytown]] broke out. The game ended with 9 fights, 11 goals, 39 penalties, 148 penalty minutes, one hat-trick (by [[Valeri Kamensky]]) and a goalie fight between Stanley Cup champion goalies [[Patrick Roy]] and [[Mike Vernon]].<ref name="avsrw10y"/> Claude Lemieux was one of the players singled out by the Red Wings players.<!--needs to be reworded, but I'm not sure how.--> The Red Wings ended up winning the game in overtime 6-5.<ref name="avsrw10y"/> Both teams met again in the Conference Finals that season, with the Red Wings emerging victorious, and going on to win the Stanley Cup. In the following five years, the Avalanche and the Red Wings met three times in the playoffs, with Colorado winning the first two and losing the last.
: Apart from the fact that your characterization is incorrect, foreign trade, passports, etc are not mentioned in the Montevideo Convention '''at all''' and rarely enter into a consideration of statehood issues in international law. On the other hand, what is specifically mentioned is '''the capacity to enter into relations with other states.''' Here, not only does Transnistria have the capacity. It has actual relations. Last week alone, 16 agreements were signed with Russia. Agreements have also been signed Moldova, with Ukraine, and numerous with the OSCE who is a "conglomorate" which represents states only. The OSCE keeps a permanent office in Tiraspol, the capital of Transnistria. This is not original research. Sources can be provided for all of the above. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
This rivalry is often considered one of the most intense rivalries in the NHL by the press and fans.<ref>{{cite news |title =Part II -- Top rivalries|url =http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/preview2005/news/story?id=2172427|author =|publisher =ESPN|date =2005-10-29|accessdate =2007-03-27}}</ref>
:: So, what exactly does qualify as "international relation" as concerns sovereignty? Just about any piece of paper? But then, you have guerillas in Colombia that control their territory and engage in peace talks and hostage exchange with other governments. :) Are they sovereign? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 06:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
===The sell-out streak===
:::Even a private company can sign agreements with a foreign government. Does it mean that private companies are sovereign states?--[[User:MariusM|MariusM]] 13:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
After a record 487 consecutive games, the NHL's longest consecutive attendance sellout ended with the Avalanche on [[October 16]], [[2006]], after a reported attendance of 17,681, which is 326 under capacity at the [[Pepsi Center]] before a game against the [[Chicago Blackhawks]]. The streak began on [[November 9]], [[1995]], the Avalanche's eighth [[regular season]] home game during the [[1995-96 NHL season]], before a sellout of 16,061 at the [[McNichols Sports Arena]] versus the [[Dallas Stars]].<ref>{{cite news |title =Avs see sellout streak get away|url =http://www.denverpost.com/avalanche/ci_4503924|author =Frei, Terry|publisher =Denver Post|date =2006-10-17|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> The Avalanche recorded their 500th home sellout in their 515th game in Denver on [[January 20]] [[2007]], against the [[Detroit Red Wings]], a game the Avs would win 3-2.<ref>{{cite news |title = Avalanche Reaches 500th Sellout In Denver |url =http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?NID=780|author =|publisher =Colorado Avalanche|date =2006-01-20|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref>
 
==Team colors and jersey==
:::: No. The capacity to enter into relations is only one of four criteria which together form a principle in customary international law. The other three are population, territory and government. Transnistria meets these requirements. Private companies do not, nor do Colombian guerilla groups. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 13:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
[[Image:Colorado-alternate.gif|thumb|left|100px|Avalanche's alternate logo: the foot of Howler]]
:::::Can you describe something which does ''not'', under your definition, have the capacity to enter into relations with other states? You seem to have diluted this principle to the point of near meaninglessness. I think what we need here is citations - some sort of textbook explanation of what this principle means would be very helpful here. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 14:42, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
{{h3|Logo}}
:::::: Relations with other states would include official visits (where the head of a state is referred to by his official title by the government of the receiving state). Apart from their lack of the other three criteria of the Montevideo Convention, that is something which guerilla groups or private companies, to name the two extreme examples, can never obtain. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The Colorado Avalanche logo is composed by a [[Burgundy (color)|burgundy]] letter '''''A''''' with snow wrapped around, similar to an [[avalanche]]. There is a hockey puck in the lower-right end of the snow, wrapping around the logo. Around the whole logo, there's a blue oval.
::::::: Well, mentioning self-styled titles is usual when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities. I presume what you would need to show is actual official documents of another state signed by both Smirnov (or other minister), in his quality of President of Transnistria", and some other chief of state. Something that goes beyond the mere solving of the border conflict. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: I am referring to an official statement (press release) of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs a foreign country which refers to Igor Smirnov as President of Pridnestrovskaia Moldavskaia Respublica (the official name of Transnistria). This is a U.N. Security Council member. I can assure you that these things are not dealt with lightly and that this is not "usual" (as you claim) when "when dealing with breakaway/guerilla entities" (as you claim). You may want to provide sources to back up the somewhat novel theory that this is usual in international relations. Furthermore, I merely gave this as an example. There are numerous other items of evidence in the "capacity supporting" category, and I would most certainly also include international bilateral Ministry-to-Ministry agreements in that field as well. Last week alone, a further 16 of these were added. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 18:52, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::: I presume that by "member of the UN security council" you mean Russia. Well, I find extremely important that even the country that created and supported Transnistria as a breakaway entity (including militarily) refuses to recognize it as a sovereign state. Turkey, for instance, has recognized Northern Cyprus. For me, this means that there's no way Transnistria will be a normal state in the near future. Not even Russia openly supports its sovereignty. It's just another way to create a frozen conflict zone near the EU and NATO. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:49, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::: I hate to be harsh, but that is really a [[straw man]] argument. We are NOT giving sources as to whether or not Transnistria will "be a normal state in the near future". That is, frankly, irrelevant to this list. All we need to determine is if it meets the criteria listed by the Montevideo Convention. We are clear on the first three, and I have given five sources to document that it also meets the fourth. Not content with that, you now change the goal posts? Sorry, but the very same Montevideo Convention is also clear on the recognition issue, as are the sources which I have provided. So please just stick to the topic, and we can quickly close out this discussion. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 23:39, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
The team's alternate logo is the foot of Howler, and can be seen on the shoulders of the Avalanche's home and away jerseys.
====Second question: What reliable source stated that Transnistria is sovereign?====
{{clear}}
It also seems that this article includes parts that are in direct breach of WP:OR, looking more like an original research paper, than like a report on what reliable sources say. All sorts of debates took place here, as to which states are to be included, and which not, and some guys decided Transnistria qualifies according to the Montevideo Convention. But this is exactly what WP:OR is about: original research. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 20:59, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
{{h3|Jerseys}}
[[Image:Avalanche200607jerseys.GIF|thumb|350px|right|Avalanche jerseys for the 2006-07 season: Home and away (top) and 3rd jersey (bottom)]]
The Avalanche jerseys have not changed since their first season in 1995. The team colors are burgundy, blue and white. The home jersey, which was the team's road jersey until 2003 when the [[National Hockey League|NHL]] decided to switch home and road jerseys,<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.statenews.com/article.phtml?pk=15112|title=NHL 'quacked' up with hockey jersey switch|first=Kristofer|last=Karol|publisher=[[State News]]|date=[[January 27]], [[2003]]|accessdate=2006-08-30}}</ref> is dominantly burgundy and dark blue in color. There are two black and white [[zigzag]] lines along the jersey, one in the shoulders, the other near the belly. Between them, the jersey is burgundy, outside those lines it is dark blue. Similar lines exist around the neck. The Avalanche logo is in the center of the jersey. On top of the shoulders, there is the alternate logo, one on each side. The away jersey is similar, just with different colors. The burgundy part on the home jersey is white on the away jersey, the light blue part is burgundy and the black and white lines became white and dark blue.
 
The Avalanche introduced a third jersey during the 2001-02 season.<ref>{{cite news |title =OILERS 4, AVALANCHE 1 "Third jersey' to make debut on Halloween|url =http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=DP&p_theme=dp&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EF431E783FCBE23&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM|author =Dater, Adrian|publisher =Denver Post|date =2001-10-19|accessdate =2007-03-26}}</ref> It is dominantly burgundy. "Colorado" is spelled in a diagonal across the jersey where the logo is on the other jerseys. From the belly down, three large horizontal stripes, the first and the last being black and the middle one being white. In the middle of the arms, there are 5 stripes, black, white and burgundy from the outside inside in both sides.
: Empirical evidence is not original research. Anyone can read the Montevideo Convention. There is plenty of precedent for how to interpret it, too. Then you simply review the more than 200 sources of interactions at various levels with other sttaes and it is becomes clear as water that Transnistria meets the requirement. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 21:24, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 
==Seasons and records==
:: I cite from [[WP:OR]]: ''It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source''. Putting Transnistria here is exactly this. There's no source having have made the same analysis. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 06:05, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
===Season-by-season record===
:: You should also read [[WP:SYNT]]. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 06:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
''This is a partial list of the last five seasons completed by the Avalanche. For the full season-by-season history, see [[Colorado Avalanche seasons]]''
 
'''''Note:''' GP = Games played, W = Wins, L = Losses, T = Ties, OTL = Overtime Losses, Pts = Points, GF = Goals for, GA = Goals against, PIM = Penalties in minutes''
::: SYNT is actually beside the point, in this case. But if all you need is an external source which tells you that Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo Convention, then just say so, and lots of editors here can easily provide it. It is about as far from original research as you can get. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 13:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::::Alright, please do so. I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states, and on whether South Ossetia, at least, has a defined territory which it controls. This latter seems particularly dubious. So, anyway, citations please. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 14:50, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
<small>Records as of April 9, 2007.</small><ref name="hockeydb">Hockeydb.com, [http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/teamseasons.php?tid=690 Colorado Avalanche season statistics and records]</ref>
::::: I'd be leary of writing anything about South Ossetia since I know too little about this subject. I am quite familiar with Transnistria, however. They have several government ministries in place which a) have the capacity to enter into relations with other states, and b) actually '''do''' enter into relations with other states, usually in the form of agreements signed with their counterparts abroad. Would you like sources for a) or for b)? A should be enough, since that is what the Montevideo Convention is about. But numerous examples of B abound as well. (For instance, last week alone, 16 new bilateral agreements.) - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:07, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
{| class="wikitable"
:::::: I think that JohnK, like me, would like to see some <b>reputable</b> source saying <b>explicitly</b> that either:
|- style="background-color:#dddddd;" |
::::::# Transnistria is sovereign, or
|Season || GP || W || L || T || OTL || Pts || GF || GA || PIM || Finish || Playoffs
::::::# Transnistria meets the requirements of the Montevideo convention
|-
:::::: That's all. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
| [[2001-02 NHL season|2001-02]] || 82 || 45 || 28 || 8 || 1 || 99 || 212 || 169 || 1007 || 1st, Northwest || Lost in Conference Finals, 3-4 ([[Detroit Red Wings|Red Wings]])
|- bgcolor="#eeeeee"
| [[2002-03 NHL season|2002-03]] || 82 || 42 || 19 || 13 || 8 || 105 || 251 || 194 || 1084 || 1st, Northwest || Lost in Conference Quarterfinals, 3-4 ([[Minnesota Wild|Wild]])
|-
| [[2003-04 NHL season|2003-04]] || 82 || 40 || 22 || 13 || 7 || 100 || 236 || 198 || 1293 || 2nd, Northwest || Lost in Conference Semifinals, 2-4 ([[San Jose Sharks|Sharks]])
|- bgcolor="#eeeeee"
| [[2004-05 NHL season|2004-05]] || colspan="11"| ''Season cancelled due to [[2004-05 NHL Lockout]]''
|-
| [[2005-06 NHL season|2005-06]]<sup>1</sup> || 82 || 43 || 30 || — || 9 || 95 || 283 || 257 || 1130 || 2nd, Northwest || Lost in Conference Semifinals, 0-4 ([[Mighty Ducks of Anaheim|Mighty Ducks]])
|- bgcolor="#eeeeee"
| [[2006-07 NHL season|2006-07]] || 82 || 44 || 31 || — || 7 || 95 || 272 || 251 || 864 ||4th, Northwest || Did not qualify
|}
 
:<sup>1</sup> <small>As of the [[2005-06 NHL season]], all games tied after regulation will be decided in a shootout; SOL (Shootout losses) will be recorded as OTL in the standings.</small>
:::::::: Here's what John said: '''I'm particularly interested in what is said on whether any of these states "have the capacity to enter into relations" with other states.''' - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:17, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::: I'm sorry for you, but saying only this is not enough. Remember [[WP:OR]], [[WP:SYNT]]. BTW: I indented your text. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::: Thanks for indenting my text. But what are we really discussing here, again? The better accepted theory of customary international law holds that the existence of states is a factual matter, and that recognition by other states or the international community can be no more than evidence of statehood or a display of willingness to establish a certain level of relations with the recognised state. Even the entities aspiring to statehood which are not formally recognised by other states do have rights vis‑a‑vis other states. For example, during four decades the state of Israel was not formally recognised by many Arab states; still, these states recognised that the territory of Israel could not be invaded by them. When in 1949 British planes were downed by the Israel airforce, the United Kingdom at once informed the Israeli authorities that they would demand compensation. The fact that the United Kingdom had not recognised Israel at that time was not considered relevant. Last, before the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) was recognised by Greece, that country did in fact recognise that de facto a state existed on the territory of (former) Yugoslav Macedonia; indeed, Greece even negotiated with FYROM in order to reach a settlement on the name and state symbols of that state. Within the past seven days alone, two incidents somewhat along the lines of these examples happened in Transnistria. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 15:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::: Could you give the sources you were talking about earlier, so that we finish this matter? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 16:04, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
===Franchise leaders===
:::::::::::::: I'll deindent back out and give you some. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
''Note: This list does not include stats from the [[Quebec Nordiques]] ([[WHA]] & [[NHL]]).''
<small>Records as of April 9, 2007.</small><ref name="avsdbrb">{{cite web |title =Regular Season Record Books|url =http://www.avalanchedb.com/recordbooks/regular/page1.htm|publisher =Colorado Avalanche Database|accessdate =2007-05-12}}</ref>
{{col-start}}
{{col-2}}
{{h4|Regular season}}
*Games played: [[Joe Sakic]], 811
*Goals: Joe Sakic, 376
*Assists: Joe Sakic, 587
*Points: Joe Sakic, 963
*Penalty minutes: [[Adam Foote]], 809
*Wins: [[Patrick Roy]], 262
*Shutouts: Patrick Roy, 37
{{col-2}}
{{h4|Playoffs}}
*Games played: Joe Sakic, 150
*Goals: Joe Sakic, 75
*Assists: [[Peter Forsberg]], 93
*Points: Joe Sakic, 167
*Penalty minutes: Adam Foote, 266
*Wins: Patrick Roy, 81
*Shutouts: Patrick Roy, 18
{{col-end}}
 
===Franchise records===
Most of these are not online. One of the most recent and most specific to this mater is «Отношения России и Абхазии: проблемы теории и практики» 19 декабря 2006 г. в Государственной Думе РФ which fortunately is online at http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055
''Note: This list does not include records from the [[Quebec Nordiques]] ([[WHA]] & [[NHL]]). Items in '''bold''' are NHL records.'' <small>Records as of April 9, 2007.</small><ref name="avsdbrb"/>
 
{{h4|Regular season}}
It is a presentation by international law and international relations specialist K. Zatulin, head of the Institute of CIS countries, to the lower house of Russia (State Duma) in December 2006. The article reviews the four criteria of the Montevideo Convention, then states that '''"it is obvious"''' that Transnistria meets "at least three of four requirements." It then examines the fourth requirement, and concludes that '''"in fact, their capacity to enter into relations with other states is beyond any doubt."'''
*Most goals in a season: [[Joe Sakic]], 54 (2000-01)
*Most assists in a season: [[Peter Forsberg]], 86 (1995-96)
*Most points in a season: Joe Sakic, 120 (1995-96)
*Most penalty minutes in a season: [[Chris Simon]], 250 (1995-96)
*Most game-winning goals in a season: Joe Sakic, 12 (2000-01)
*Most points in a season, rookie: [[Paul Stastny]], 78 (2006-07)
*'''NHL record longest points streak, rookie: Paul Stastny, 20 games (2006-07)'''
*'''NHL record most consecutive games played by a defenseman: [[Karlis Skrastins]], 495 games (2000-2007 - 270 with the Nashville Predators and 225 with the Avalanche)'''
*Best [[Plus/minus|+/-]] record in a season: [[Milan Hejduk]] and Peter Forsberg, +52 (2002-03)
*Most wins in a season: [[Patrick Roy]], 40 (2000-01)
*Most shutouts in a season: Patrick Roy, 9 (2001-02)
*Best goal against average in a season: Patrick Roy, 1.94 (2001-02)
 
{{h4|Playoffs}}
If you have access to a good library, there are many more sources for this. Some of them, for starters:<br>
*Most goals in a playoff season: Joe Sakic, 18 (1996)
* ''International Society and the De Facto State''' by Scott Pegg, Ashgate Publishing (1999), ISBN: 1840144785, pages 30 - 43<br>
*Most assists in a playoff season: Peter Forsberg, 18 (2002)
* ''Fragmentation and the International Relations of Micro-states: self-determination and statehood'' by Jorri C. Duursma, Cambridge University Press (1996), ISBN 0521563607, page 122<br>
*Most points in a playoff season: Joe Sakic, 34 (1996)
* ''De facto states: the Quest for Sovereignty'', by Tozun Bahcheli, Barry Bartmann, Henry Felix Srebrnik, Routledge, UK (2004), ISBN 0714654760, page 112<br>
*Most penalty minutes in a playoff season: [[Adam Foote]], 62 (1997)
* I would also include ''The Sustainability and Future of Unrecognized Quasi-States'', by Pål Kolstø, Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 43, No. 6, (2006) DOI: 10.1177/0022343306068102, of the International Peace Research Institute in Oslo, Norway, Pages 723-740, although it does not enumerate Montevideo directly. It does go to the heart of all four criteria, however, and sustains this (narrow) sovereignty argument.
 
{{h4|Team}}
It is interesting research and there can be no doubt at all that Transnistria and Abkhazia belongs on the list, but with the appropriate disclaimers and footnotes of course. I am less certain about South Ossetia. I know too little, but I will be glad to help anyone else with sources if someone wants to do more research into this. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 18:46, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
*'''Most consecutive division titles (1994-5 through 2002-3), 9'''<ref name="divtitrec"/>
*Most points in a season: 118 (2000-01)
*Most wins in a season: 52 (2000-01)
*Most goals: 336 (1995-96)
*Largest margin of victory: 10 (Dec. 12, 1995 vs San Jose (12-2))
 
==Current roster==
:: I took a look on the source http://materik.ru/print.php?section=analitics&bulsectionid=17055 . You can obtain an English version (more or less good) using babelfish.altavista.com (you put in the web page and choose the Russian to English translation).
<small>As of April 27th, [[2006-07 NHL season|2007]]. [http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/team/PlayersNumber.asp]</small>
:: I see a single occurrence of "Dniestr Moldovian" in the text, and as concerns the 4th point the position is that it's debatable. Nothing new on sovereignty, I'm afraid. BTW, does someone know what this "materik.ru" is? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:: As to the other sources, I presume "reputable" includes "verifiable", so I'll just wait for some other reputable editor to confirm reading them. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
:: So, Mauco, do you have some real source? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:44, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 
{| width=90%
::: The four books quoted are peer-reviewed academic works. They are more substantial than most of what floats around on the Internet. I am sorry that you want everything to be hyperlinked. But in my field, some of the best material is hardcopy and not always available online. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
!colspan=6 |<center><big>Goaltenders
|- bgcolor="#dddddd"
!width=5%|#
!width=5%|
|align=left!!width=15%|'''Player'''
!width=8%|Catches
!width=9%|Acquired
!width=37%|Place of Birth
 
|- bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:I am dubious of sources coming from interested parties. That a Russian paper states that it is "beyond doubt" that Transnistria can enter into relations with other states does not settle the matter for me. That it takes the other three points as "obvious," but feels the need to engage in an argument as to the latter (which is, I take it, what it says? If I've misinterpreted, correct me), suggests that, in fact, it is not "beyond doubt," and that people have, in fact, argued the opposite. I'd really be interested to see some general discussion of the issue of what it is that "capacity to enter into relations" means under international law. At any rate, whether or not these states meet the Montevideo definition, I ''still'' don't think they should be listed alongside the rest of the list. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 21:12, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''31'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|SVK}}
|[[Peter Budaj]]
|align=center|L
|align=center|[[2001 NHL Entry Draft|2001]]
|[[Banská Bystrica]], [[Czechoslovakia]]
 
|- bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:::: John, that criticism is only valid for the online link. Are you able to check out the four Western academic sources? A good university library should be able to locate all or most of them. They are not interested parties in any way, and they back up our edit in full. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 23:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''60'''
:::::I will try to take a look, but there's no guarantee that I'll have time to do so. It'd be nice if you provided a paraphrase of the arguments these writers make about the "capacity to enter into relations" business. BTW, none of the sources you refer to appear to be ''legal'' sources - they all look like poli sci stuff, and I'm not sure that political scientists are qualified experts on the interpretation of international law. For instance, the abstract of the Kolsto book you mention, for instance, appears to be an analysis of the real, on the ground political and economic conditions of these states, not a legal analysis of their precise status. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 19:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
::: Don't know if I count as a "reputable editor", but I did give that source a try. First, Konstantin Zatulin is [http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/personer.exe?53 this] guy, here. Second, in his report, he mostly focuses on Abkhasia, giving Transnistria a glancing mention. Third, he argues, that, since Transnistria does participate in conflict regulation talks (that also include Russia and Ukraine), that would, in his opinion, qualify as at least a basic form of relations with foreign entities.
|[[Jose Theodore]]
::: The site appears to be a news aggregator (hosted by Zatulin's Institute of CIS (an NGO)), providing information concerning post-Soviet territories from a Russian point of view. In my opinion, Zatulin's report would formally pass as a WP:RS, although I'd personally prefer a more neutral, preferrably non-Russian source on this issue. --[[User:Illythr|Illythr]] 22:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|R
|align=center|[[2005-06 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Laval, Quebec]]
|}
 
{| width=90%
:::: The article is about Abkhazia. The points which are relevant to this discussion (Montevideo Convention in general, and the "capability" issue in particular) all cover Transnistria. They cover Transnistria '''specifically''', by name, in the context. Not implicitly. Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma, and the head of a very serious, respected organization which works professionally precisely in this field. He is probably the most qualified congressman to analyze these issues. - [[User:William Mauco|Mauco]] 23:32, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
!colspan=6 |<center><big>Defensemen
|- bgcolor="#dddddd"
!width=5%|#
!width=5%|
|align=left!!width=15%|'''Player'''
!width=8%|Shoots
!width=9%|Acquired
!width=37%|Place of Birth
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
|align=center|'''2'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}}
|[[Ken Klee]]
|align=center|R
|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Indianapolis, Indiana]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:::: Thanks for the input, Illythr. As I explained a bit earlier in the discussions, I presume that such basic forms of "conflict resolution" cannot count for Montevideo. Why? Because even guerilla movements participate in peace talks (e.g. in Columbia), without being acknowledged as sovereign. Moreover, and as you noted, there is the fact that the source is Russian, closely related to the Duma. BTW, I found a very interesting source on the Transnistrian war on that page: http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?3165. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''3'''
:::: BTW, it is interesting to see that Zatulin and the on-line Russian source provided by Mauco are very careful, and stop short of saying that "Transnistria is sovereign". They both talk about the Montevideo convention, say that "Transnistria has basic forms of relations", but do not say whether these basic forms qualify Transnistria for Montevideo sovereignty (they do not draw the conclusion that interests us). I find this to be a form of honesty. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:23, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|{{flagicon|LVA}}
:::: I also don't know if you followed the threads I initiated here from the beginning, but let me again state that I am simply questioning here the sovereignty of Transnistria (according to Montevideo), not its de facto independence, which is unedeniable. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|[[Karlis Skrastins]]
:::: My position is the following: There are currently no reputable sources saying that Transnistria is sovereign or that it satisfies Montevideo. Moreover, deciding here any of them qualifies as both POV (because there are sensible arguments agains) and original research. Upto now, Mauco didn't manage to present me with reputable sources contradicting it. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|L
|align=center|[[2003-04 NHL season|2003]]
|[[Riga]], [[Soviet Union|U.S.S.R.]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:::::: He gave you five sources and some of them are scientific, it says ¨Cambridge University¨ on one of them, did you read the sources already? removing Transnistria from the list is POV because it directly denies the possibility that it is not a sovereign state, but including it with a footnote explaining exactly what's going on is neutral because it presents both sides of the story: it is considered sovereign by some criteria by some people but not by others, so the article as it currently stands does not endorse Russian POV because it includes a footnote, and if you think this is not sufficient, then add another, but just don't Transnistria to make the article reflect your POV that it does not comply with the rules for the montevideo convention. this is the same from the old Abkhazia discussion, you have maybe not seen it but it was solved a long long time ago [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 21:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''4'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}}
|[[John-Michael Liles]]
|align=center|L
|align=center|[[2000 NHL Entry Draft|2000]]
|[[Zionsville, Indiana]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
* I don't have it with me, but I do have what is a reputable source which specifically addresses Montevideo with respect to Transnistria and clearly states that these criteria '''do <u>not</u> confer legitimacy as a sovereign state'''. The statement here and elsewhere that Transnistria is sovereign according to Montevideo (and examples cited) at best qualifies as the original research/POV of one person--which does not qualify for Wikipedia even if correct--which I hasten to add, it is not. (Also, the political analysis of any Russian official/politician/analyst is inadmissible as being totally partisan. And let's not get into the "consider the words, not the source" argument again.) With regards to Pernambuco's comments, the PMR is not considered sovereign by pretty much the entire planet of sovereign countries and not even by the country which has a vested geopolitical interest (Russia). People of opposing viewpoints arguing on Wikipedia does not mean "maybe it's sovereign, maybe it isn't, let's footnote that maybe it isn't, that's sufficient." Montevideo is relevant to "sovereignty" only when a government is recognized as legitimate--as Montevideo ''cannot'' confer legitimacy, it ''cannot'' confer sovereignty. <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 05:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''5'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Brett Clark]]
|align=center|L
|align=center|[[2001-02 NHL season|2002]]
|[[Wapella (Saskatchewan)|Wapella]], [[Saskatchewan]]
 
|-bgcolor="eeeeee"
====Montevideo and the so-called "frozen conflict" zones====
|align=center|'''6'''
From "Engaging Eurasia's Separatist States--Unresolved Conflicts and DeFacto States" by Dov Lynch, the first book I've come across that deals with Transnistria, South Ossetia, et al. in a cohesive fashion... Regarding "empirical" claims to statehood: "The classic definition of an entity that may be regarded as a sovereign state was set forth in the Montevideo Convention on Rights and Duties of States of 1933. The Montevideo criteria are that an entity have (1) a permanent population, (2) a defined territory, (3) a government, and (4) the capacity to enter into relations with other states. The post-Soviet de facto states fulfill the first three of these criteria and claim to pursue the fourth. However, the empirical qualifications of the de facto state cannot make it legal or legitimate in international society. As [Scott] Pegg [academic expert in international relations teaching at Indiana University] argued, it is 'illegitimate no matater how effective it is'.... The de facto state claims both to be sovereign over its territory and people, and to be constitutionally independent of any other state. The key difference for the de facto state resides in its non-recognition. This status prevents it from enjoying membership in the club of states--the de facto state does not have recognized external sovereignty."
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}}
* So, bottom line, is Transnistria et al are not sovereign because they are not recognized. Original research by Wiki editors protesting the "latest" A,B, and C "deals" (versus reputable, non-partisan, recognized expert academic sources) cannot change that.
|[[Jeff Finger]]
* From http://www.sgpproject.org/experts/dov_lynch.html: <small>Dov Lynch has been Lecturer in War Studies at King’s College, London since September 1999. Prior to this, he was University Lecturer in International Relations/Russian Foreign Policy at the University of Oxford for 1999, and a Research Fellow at St Antony's College. He was also a Research Fellow at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, Russia and Eurasia Programme. He received a doctorate in International Relations from the University of Oxford (St Antony's College) in 1997, and a BA in Soviet Studies from Yale University in 1992. In 2001, he was invited to be a Research Fellow with the EU Institute of Security Studies. Dov Lynch is currently Director of a two-year project funded by the United States Institute of Peace called 'Exiting from Volatile Impasses: De Facto States in Euro-Asian Security.' His major publications include Russian Peacekeeping Strategies towards the CIS, (2000) and co-edited volumes on Energy in the Caspian Region (2002) and The Euro-Asian World: A Period of Transition (2000). He has also written Occasional Paper 32 and is writing a Chaillot Paper on Russian-EU Relations. Dr. Lynch’s specialties are EU-Russian relations, security developments in Russia and the former Soviet Union, as well as EU policies towards the region.</small>
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Transnistria is not sovereign. Montevideo, as argued here by Mauco and others, does not confer sovereignty on Transnistria; same for the other frozen conflict zones.
|align=center|[[1999 NHL Entry Draft|1999]]
* And no commentary would be complete without... "I dispute Mauco's source as partisan." And Mauco's usual "consider the words not the source." ("Do not focus on Zatulin's nationality, please, but on his scolarly credentials in the field. He is the top expert in the State Duma.") Anyone who is a deputy of the Russian State Duma '''cannot possibly''' be regarded as non-partisan. <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 03:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
|[[Houghton, Michigan]]
* Forgot, dispute Mauco's (et al.) interpretation of his other sources as putting Transnistria over the sovereignty hump. <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 03:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
* And, all of us arguing over Montevideo and the sovereignty of states is the ultimate in original research; any articles of the sort claiming to list "sovereign but unrecognized states" violates [[No original research]] <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 03:50, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
==Unrecognized States==
|align=center|'''27'''
Last year it was [[Abkhazia]] and [[South Ossetia]] that people were removing. This year it is [[Transnistria]] that is being removing. Either way it is POV pushing as entries from the [[List of unrecognized countries|unrecognized countries]] are not being treated the same. Either all should be removed or all should be listed. Even if your interest/knowledge relates to one of the countries, you should be working on what the criteria of what should be listed on this page rather than just removing an entry. Many times when an entry is removed it usually looks silly as the top of the page, which has a count and description, is not updated - making the page inconsistent.
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|[[Ossi Vaananen]]
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|align=center|[[2003-04 NHL season|2004]]
|[[Vantaa]], [[Finland]]
 
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To me there are only three possibilities of dealing with this issue:
|align=center|'''34'''
1) Remove all the unrecognized countries
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2) Leave the unrecognized countries on the list but rename the page List of Independence Countries (or something similar) and remove reference to the Montevideo convention (Which seems to be a source of friction)
|[[Kurt Sauer]]
3) Leave the page as is
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|align=center|[[2000 NHL Entry Draft|2004]]
|[[St. Cloud, Minnesota]]
 
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Until there is a consensuses on what to do here in the talk page, the page should not be changed. If it is, it will be reverted. -- ([[User:Shocktm|Shocktm]] | [[User_talk:Shocktm|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Shocktm|contribs.]]) 14:17, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''44'''
:I'm for option 3, personally; we already make it clear enough that they're unrecognised. &mdash;[[User:Nightstallion|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">Nightst</span>]]<font color="green">[[User:Nightstallion/esperanza|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">a</span>]]</font>[[User:Nightstallion|<span style="font-variant:small-caps">llion</span>]] [[User talk:Nightstallion|''(?)'']] 14:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
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|[[Jordan Leopold]]
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|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Golden Valley, Minnesota]]
 
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:: Yes, of course, I agree 1000%, the list is very clear. it has the introduction, and the criteria, and if you look at footnote 1, you will see that this list includes de facto states, so the only question here is whether places like Transnistria are de facto states, and the answer is yes, so they can be included. The people who want to delete them, they would be ruling out the possibility that they are not sovereign states, but compare this to including them but saying the exact situation (that their statehood is disputed) and let the reader make up his own mind, that is the most neutral thing we can do, this is why the footnotes are there, and personal POV from someone who maybe is a Transnistria hater does not override WP:NPOV. [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''71'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Patrice Brisebois]]<small> ([[Injured reserve|IR]])</small>
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|align=center|[[2005-06 NHL season|2005]]
|[[Montreal, Quebec]]
|}
 
{| width=90%
::: leave the page the way it is.
!colspan=7 |<center><big>Forwards
|- bgcolor="#dddddd"
!width=5%|#
!width=5%|
|align=left!!width=15%|'''Player'''
!width=8%|Position
!width=8%|Shoots
!width=9%|Acquired
!width=37%|Place of Birth
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
|align=center|'''8'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}<!--Note: Wolski plays for Team Canada-->
|[[Wojtek Wolski]]<sup>1</sup>
|align=center|LW
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|align=center|[[2004 NHL Entry Draft|2004]]
|[[Zabrze]], [[Poland]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
I'm sorry, but the proposal of Shocktm relies on the false hypothesis that the situation of all the unrecognized states is the same, and that we should either accept or reject them as a group. This is false. There is an obvious difference between entities such as [[Taiwan]], [[Transnistria]], and the [[Palestinian authority]], and we should deal with them separately. The only common decision is the choice of the rules for accepting sovereign states. This has already been done (Montevideo Convention). Now, each of these unrecognized countries must be checked <b>separately</b> against the requirements. To put it otherwise: Don't be lazy, you can't create an encyclopedia through batch processing. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''12'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Brad Richardson]]
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|align=center|[[2003 NHL Entry Draft|2003]]
|[[Belleville, Ontario]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
: This is a list of sovereign states and it is defined from the criteria in the intro, so the POV push to exclude some areas and allow others, it is not right, the only criteria is from the intro, and this list is not an extended mirror of [[United Nations member states]], so be realistic and face the fact Abkhazia and South Ossetia and Transnistria and those places are currently de facto independent, so Wikipedia has to show the current situation, with accuracy [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''14'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Ian Laperriere]] - '''[[Captain (ice hockey)#Alternate captains|A]]'''
|align=center|RW/C
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|align=center|[[2004-05 NHL season|2004]]
|[[Montreal, Quebec]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
As concerns Transnistria, I gave here enough arguments showing that the information concerning it currently qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and moreover this original research is POV. Why do you keep re-including it? And why do you do so while refusing to answer my concerns on this talk page? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''15'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Andrew Brunette]] - '''[[Captain (ice hockey)#Alternate captains|A]]'''
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|align=center|[[2005-06 NHL season|2005]]
|[[Sudbury, Ontario]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
: maybe it is that you don't understand the meaning of "sovereign", because "Sovereign" does not mean "recognized by the United Nations" or anything like that, read the introduction to the article and the definition of sovereign states from the Montevideo Convention [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 18:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''19'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Joe Sakic]] - '''[[Captain (ice hockey)|C]]'''
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|align=center|[[1987 NHL Entry Draft|1987]]
|[[Burnaby, British Columbia]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:: Is this for real?! Did you at least read what I wrote? Where on Earth did you read "United Nations"? Do yourself a favor and read the posts before answering. What I'm saying here is that Transnistria does not comply with Montevideo. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:12, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''20'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Mark Rycroft]]
|align=center|RW/LW
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|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Penticton, British Columbia]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
::: wiki-pedia can't ignore that these territorities do rule themselves, and are therefore sovereign in a practical way [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 21:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''23'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CZE}}
|[[Milan Hejduk]]
|align=center|RW
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|align=center|[[1994 NHL Entry Draft|1994]]
|[[Ústí nad Labem]], [[Czechoslovakia]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:::: But then, this article should not claim that the listed states comply with Montevideo (under Montevideo, self-rule is not enough to define sovereignty). I think that our misunderstanding comes from exactly this point: you think that the criterion should be "self rule", whereas I rely on Montevideo (which is the advertised criterion).
|align=center|'''26'''
:::: I am not particularly fond of Montevideo, but if we change it we need to clearly state what other criterion is enforced (maybe just our will, but I find this a bit arbitrary and conflict-prone). [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}} <!--plays for Team USA-->
|[[Paul Stastny]]
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|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Quebec City, Quebec]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
----
|align=center|'''28'''
At [[List of countries]] and [[List of sovereign states]], it is clearly written:'''The listing of any name in this article is not meant to imply an official position in any naming dispute.''' I understand both lists contain all countries which may be sovereign/ all territories which may be countries, including the ones with uncertain status. In my opinion, if we remove Transnistria from these lists, it is taking side. [[User:Dl.goe|Dl.goe]] 19:31, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Ben Guite]]
|align=center|RW
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|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Montreal, Quebec]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:: I cite from the article:
|align=center|'''29'''
::: '''This list derives its definition of a sovereign state from Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention from 1933. According to the Convention, a sovereign state should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. The list includes all states that satisfy these criteria and claim independence.'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}}
:: As you see, the article claims that Transnistria satisfies the 4 Montevideo points. So, it's not just an arbitrary list. BTW: I dispute the fact that Transnistria satisfies point (d), and I claim that including Transnistria here is in breach with WP:OR, WP:SYNT, WP:NPOV. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 20:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|[[Scott Parker (ice hockey)|Scott Parker]]
::: The thing is, wouldn't any country's inclusion here then be in breach of these guidelines? [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 21:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|RW
:::: Good question. I presume that very few states have had their sovereignty explicitly checked against Montevideo in a reputable source. In this case, the solution would be to find the good criteria, not including original research, under which we can create state lists. I presume the sensible thing to do is to take a look to places like the CIA factbook and the likes and list states from there. Or create a list of all states and autonomous territories and mark in several columns its status according to various sources. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 22:41, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
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The currently Montevideo criteria is imprecise, as it refers to which state is sovereign, but doesn't refer to which territory is state. It leads to paradoxes like claiming Transnistria is a sovereign state according to Montevideo, but it is not recognised by major powers that follow Montevideo convention(USA and EU).
|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2007]]
My suggestion is to split
|[[Hanford, California]]
#[[list of sovereign states]] in
##[[list of recognised sovereign states]] and
##[[list of territories with disputed sovereign state status]]
#[[list of states]] in
##[[list of recognised states]] and
##[[list of unrecognised states]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
The criteria may be:
|align=center|'''39'''
#undisputed/recognised if all Big Powers recognised it
|align=center|{{flagicon|USA}}
#disputed/unrecognised if at least one of the Big Powers recognised, and at least one didn't
|[[Tyler Arnason]]
#the criteria to determine Big Powers can be the [[Group of Eight]] [[User:Dl.goe|Dl.goe]] 08:49, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
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|align=center|[[2006-07 NHL season|2006]]
|[[Oklahoma City, Oklahoma]]
 
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::: In addition to defining these objective criteria, we should also fix clear rules defining what is not original research. For instance, when talking about "territories with disputed sovereign state status", should it be necessary to have at least one source (not necessarily reputable) explicitly stating that the territory is sovereign? [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 12:44, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''40'''
::::A prove that there is a dispute, that regional officials claim the territory is a sovereign state is needed to add a territory at that list.<br>But I have a second suggestion, with changes that are easy to make:
|align=center|{{flagicon|SVK}}
#We remove the Montevideo criteria
|[[Marek Svatos]]
#We introduce ''This list also contains territories that claim to be sovereign states, but actually have a disputed status''. At [[List of sovereign states]] and ''This list also contains territories that claim to be states, but actually have a disputed status.'' At [[List of states]] [[User:Dl.goe|Dl.goe]] 19:37, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|RW
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|align=center|[[2001 NHL Entry Draft|2001]]
|[[Košice]], [[Czechoslovakia]]
 
|-bgcolor="#eeeeee"
:::::: I'd say this solution is not good. The title of the list is "List of sovereign states", and most readers will not read the header of the page. So, readers will think that all the entities claiming sovereignty really are sovereign. BTW: most states have some claim of sovereignty, so why have two lists if we take your solution? :) [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 21:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''53'''
:::::::Indeed, I don't know any recognised country that in not sovereign, and I think we cannot speak about the sovereignty of an unrecognised one. Than we should have only
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
:::::::#list of recognised states
|[[Brett McLean]]
:::::::#list of unrecognised states.[[User:Dl.goe|Dl.goe]] 21:57, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
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|align=center|[[2004-05 NHL season|2004]]
|[[Comox, British Columbia]]
 
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:::::::::Why should recognition play such a huge factor? BTW Dl.goe, we already do have a [[List of unrecognized countries]] article. <tt class="plainlinks">[[User:Khoikhoi|Khoi]][[User talk:Khoikhoi|khoi]]</tt> 22:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=center|'''87'''
|align=center|{{flagicon|CAN}}
|[[Pierre Turgeon]] <small> ([[Injured reserve|IR]])</small>
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|align=center|[[2005-06 NHL season|2005]]
|[[Rouyn-Noranda, Quebec|Rouyn, Quebec]]
|}
 
*To see the player roster and bios, click [http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/Team/Roster.aspx here.]
:::::::::: Hi Khoi. The problem, as I see it, is that you do need some criteria for including states in this list. Criteria compatible with the rules of Wikipedia, which exclude original research. Several criteria have been proposed:
::::::::::# The four criteria of the Montevideo Convention. As I and Sephia Karta noticed earlier, checking countries against these criteria (and especially international relations) qualifies as WP:OR and WP:SYNT, because there are no (reliable) sources explicitly stating the info (editors are forced to draw conclusions, which qualifies as WP:OR).
::::::::::# Recognition by other states. Does not cover well states such as ROC, Transnistria, etc.
::::::::::# ... (you name them)
:::::::::: After reading much of the posts here, my impression is that this article is and will definitely remain a nuisance. What we need are articles like: "Countries of the UN", "Unrecognized states", etc, and then a nice synthesis article that explains the relations between the various lists and the position of notable elements, such as ROC, Palestine, etc. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 23:07, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree [[list of sovereign states]] should be deleted, and [[list of states]] should be replaced by [[list of recognised states]]. Wikipedia cannot get involved in the recognition of one state; we cannot give ''sovereign state'' status to any country; all we can do is looking at international recognition.[[User:Dl.goe|Dl.goe]] 23:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 
<small>1. Wojtek Wolski plays for Team Canada. He was born in Poland but became a naturalized Canadian citizen in 1990. </SMALL>
: I completely disagree with the way this list is arranged. The countries that do not exist de-jure cannot be included in the same list as internationally recognized countries. You cannot equate breakaway regions with the countries that have all attributes of an independent country, including the ability to join international organizations and sign international agreements. And Montevideo convention is absolutely irrelevant here, it was signed by 19 American states and has no binding force to the rest of the world. There are more than 150 countries in the world, as is known. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 06:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:: The discussion here is not about the ratification of Montevideo (which is irrelevant to wikipedia), but on whether we can apply Montevideo to classify states, given that only few of them are marked as "satisfying Montevideo" in reputable sources. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 07:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
::: But why Montevideo convention should be used at all in this article as criteria for inclusion? My point is that you cannot use as a sole principle a convention which has no force outside of Americas. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 07:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::: My point is that Wikipedia is not submitted to international law. You cannot reject a criterion because most states don't recognize it. However, Montevideo must be rejected because no reliable sources (a Wikipedia criterion, this time) exist explicitly stating that states like France, Turkey, or Japan satisfy the Montevideo criteria. So the result is the same. But based on criteria which are meaningful to Wikipedia. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 08:48, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
::::: I think the criterion should be international recognition and de-jure existence. Listing every breakaway region as a sovereign state is wrong. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 08:52, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 
===Honored Members===
::::: How about list of UNO members? It has a criterion that no one can dispute. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 08:54, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
{{see also|List of Colorado Avalanche players|Colorado Avalanche notable players and award winners}}
{| cellpadding="1" border="0" style="float: right; margin: 0em 0em 1em 1em; width: 215px; border: 1px #bbbbbb solid; border-collapse: collapse; font-size: 85%;"
|- align="center" bgcolor=#CDC0B0
! colspan="3" | Players with most games for the Colorado Avalanche
|- align="center" bgcolor=#EEDFCC
| Player || Games || Years
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Joe Sakic]] || 811 || 1995-present
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Milan Hejduk]] || 624 || 1998-present
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Adam Foote]] || 592 || 1995-2004
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Peter Forsberg]] || 533 || 1995-2004
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Stephane Yelle]] || 505 || 1995-2002
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Patrick Roy]] || 478 || 1995-2003
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Alex Tanguay]] || 450 || 1999-2006
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Adam Deadmarsh]] || 405 || 1995-2001
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Jon Klemm]] || 393 || 1995-2001
|- align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFFF
| [[Eric Messier]] || 385 || 1996-2003
|- align="center" bgcolor=#EEDFCC
| colspan="3" align="center" | ''Source: [http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/ttotdisplay.php?tid=690 HockeyDB.com]''<br>''<small>As of April 9, 2007 - Regular Season data<small/>''
|}
''Retired Numbers'': The Avalanche have retired two numbers: '''77''' of [[Ray Bourque]] and '''33''' of [[Patrick Roy]].<ref>{{cite news |title =Patrick Roy #33 to Be Retired|url =http://www.sportzdomain.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=14361&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0|author =|publisher =http://www.sportzdomain.com|date =2003-05-29|accessdate =2007-03-25}}</ref> The number '''99''' of [[Wayne Gretzky]] is retired league-wide. The numbers retired when the franchise was in Quebec were entered back into circulation after the move to Colorado.
 
''Hall of Famers'': Ray Bourque played in the NHL for 22 seasons with the [[Boston Bruins]] and was traded, by request, to Colorado in 2000 so he could have a chance of winning the Stanley Cup before retiring.<ref name="bourque"/> In a feat termed Mission 16W, the Avs were able to win the Stanley Cup, thus allowing Bourque the championship he had been seeking for 22 seasons.<ref>{{cite news |title ='Mission 16W' accomplished for Avalanche|url =http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/cup01/2001-06-11-avalanche-cover.htm|author =Allen, Kevin|publisher =[[USA Today]]|date =2001-06-10|accessdate =2007-05-11}}</ref>
:::::: Well, if you read the discussions on top of this page, you will see that "international recognition" has a problem: Depending on its definition, it rejects states such as ROC, Northern Cyprus, Israel, etc. Also, the list of [[United Nations member states]] already exists, so there's no point in creating an identical list here. In fact, there is no way you can create a [[List of sovereign states]] without original research, and this is forbidden on wikipedia. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: My oppinion is that we should remove this article completely (and maybe make it a link to [[Sovereignty]]). Then, we need lists of countries grouped on objective, easily-sourced criteria, such as: UN membership, recognized, Disputed international status, etc. Then, all these lists must be commented and put in perspective in the article [[Sovereignty]]. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 
[[Patrick Roy]] played from 1995 to 2003 in Colorado and won two Stanley Cups with the Colorado Avalanche. Roy recorded 551 career victories, the most career wins for any goaltender in the NHL.<ref>{{cite web |title =Legends of Hockey - Roy, Patrick|url =http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p200602&type=Player&page=bio&list=ByYear#photo|publisher =[[Hockey Hall of Fame]]|accessdate =2007-05-11}}</ref>
::::::: I agree with that. This list has no reliable criterion and is POV and original research. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 10:16, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 
Both Bourque and Roy were inducted into the [[Hockey Hall of Fame]]. The only other Avalanche player to be inducted is [[Jari Kurri]] who played the last season of his career with the franchise, yet his jersey does not hang from the rafters at the Pepsi Center.<ref>{{cite web |title =Legends of Hockey - Colorado Avalanche|url =http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsPlayersByTeam.jsp?team=Colorado+Avalanche|publisher =[[Hockey Hall of Fame]]|accessdate =2007-05-11}}</ref>
I observe a trend here that I find very worrying, I believe some of you take the current set-up of this article for something it is not. Article 1 of the Montevideo Convention has been used for this article for as long as I've known this article to exist, and for good reason. It is not used because it contains a definition of the sovereign state that all states have agreed upon. Actually, states ''cannot'' be bound to follow any coherent theory of sovereignity, it is entirely up to their personal whims what they do and what they don't recognise. If president Mugabe of Zimbabwe so desires, his country can set up a "Lunar authority" tomorrow and recognise it as the sole sovereign government of the Moon. Or if Argentine and Brazil get into a row, they are free to no longer recognise each others sovereignity just like that. To this extent, recognition of other states is no more and no less than an opinion. Scientists of international law want to have a definition of the 'highest' actor in international politics (never mind international organisations for the moment), what they call the sovereign state, and for this they can't rely on 'international recognition', because, ultimately, that is based upon opinions only. In concreto: the scientists want to have a definition that correctly indentifies Somaliland as an international actor, because on the scene of international politics it acts, talks, walks independently from Somalia, which 'international recognition' considers it to be part of. And it just happens to be the case that the Montevideo Convention is most used for this definition. Who did or did not sign it is then wholy irrelevant, because Montevideo is not being used to commit or empower anyone, it is merely used as a tool for classification. That Transnistria is included in the list, does not grant it any rights, and it does not in any way guarentee Transnistria's continuing existence next week, it merely means that for all uses and purposes, Transnistria, at this present moment, acts independently.
How then is the current approach not objective and NPOV?
 
[[Bryan Trottier]], who was an assistant coach when the Avalanche won their second Stanley Cup in 2001, was inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1997 (as a player).<ref>{{cite web |title =Legends of Hockey - Trottier, Bryan|url =http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p199702&type=Player&page=bio&list=ByTeam&team=Colorado%20Avalanche#photo|publisher =[[Hockey Hall of Fame]]|accessdate =2007-05-11}}</ref>
As for the guideline against own research, for the cases under discussion, criteria 1-3 of Montevideo are only a matter of straightforward checking of facts. Criterium 4 seems also to involve only the observation that e.g. Transnistria has missions to Russia and Abkhazia and that it is party to the peace negotiations with Moldovia. If these are not diplomatic relations, then what are they? If one wants to claim that checking whether a state satisfies criterium 4 constitutes original research, then one needs to present an alternative hypothesis as to what criterium 4 might mean other than the obvious, namely a state is capable of having diplomatic relations if its diplomats can talk to other state's diplomats. As long as we don't know better than that this is in fact the intended meaning, I don't see any original research. This comes on top of the fact that sources ''have'' been provided that confirm that Transnistria does in fact satisfy Montevideo.
(One state that may not have satisfied criterium 4 may have been Somalia, when it didn't yet have a government.)
 
==Leaders==
I don't see the problem with the current approach. [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 11:01, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
{{h3|Team captains}}
''Note: This list of team [[Captain (hockey)|captains]] does not include captains from the [[Quebec Nordiques]] ([[WHA]] & [[NHL]]).''
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|align=left|[[Sylvain Lefebvre]]
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|align=left|1997
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{{h3|General Managers}}
:::: The current approach is the best by far, it has been that way for a long time from what I can see from the page, then for the countries that should be excluded, there are other lists, for instance there is the list of [[United Nations member states]] and the 7 de facto states can not be there, if you want to see a list that excludes them, then go there, but do not deny the reality and Wikipedia must show the reality, that some places are currently de facto independent and de facto sovereign rulers within their own borders [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
''Note: This list does not include general managers from the [[Quebec Nordiques]] ([[WHA]] & [[NHL]]).''
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|[[Pierre Lacroix]]
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|[[François Giguère|Francois Giguere]]
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{{h3|Head coaches}}
:: Well, the mere fact that you decide what is and what is not "international relations" is by definition original research, more precisely synthesis work (cf. [[WP:SYNT]]). [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
''Note: This list does not include head coaches from the [[Quebec Nordiques]] ([[WHA]] & [[NHL]]).''
:: BTW: Why do you want to have this article, that is qualified by many as POV? Why not have the clear lists of UN members, recognized states, states claiming sovereignty, etc, and then explaining the differences between them, and the particular cases in an article? This is possible without infringing on WP:OR and WP:SYNT, and it allows the special treatment of each special case, thus avoiding the POV accusations that are bound to happen when considering all these cases equivalent. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 11:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::I can see how you find that this article violates WP:Synt, but I've yet to see any reason why it should violate WP:NPOV. The present article already starts out with a break-down of states acording to recognition, and this can of course be elaborated further still. [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 15:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::: From what I know, I would say that Transnistria is not sovereign. And for two main reasons: 1. The borders of Transnistria are still conflict lines, quite different from the actually claimed land, and likely to change if the balance of forces (most notably the Russian involvement) changes. 2. The only international relations Transnistria concern peace keeping talks (any guerilla group, such as FARC does this) and the relation with its Russian protecting power. So, saying that Transnistria is de facto independent and claiming sovereignty (over some territory) is OK. Saying that it is sovereign is POV. Not even the Russian sources provided by [[User:William Mauco]] do not draw this conclusion, but let it to the reader. But let's cotinue this discussion on the [[Transnistria]] page. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::My point all along is that sovereign ''is'' roughly the same as de facto independent. It just so happens that is what sovereignity means in international law. [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::: I understand your point very well. I could even argue the same in an original article. My point is that on wikipedia we cannot use juridical arguments, just reliable sources. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
::::::: The artice on the [[Montevideo Convention]] mentions that the EU and Zwitserland follow a similar approach, except that their definition requires only a territory, population and a political authority, and this is sourced. There would be no research required to verify that the "de facto 7" satisfy these criteria. What is it that you exactly want reliable sources for? That this is the international standard? [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 10:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: So let's follow the practice of both EU and Switzerland and not recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, etc as sovereign. :) Unless you can find a source where the EU or Switzerland recognize the sovereignty of the two countries (Otherwise, it's [[WP:SYNT]]: The EU says A, some other source says B, and from here we deduce C). [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: Don't take me bad for being the [[Devil's advocate#Origin|devil's advocate]], but I think that in its current form the article is going to attract criticism. We have to find something to make this article acceptable to everybody, according to wikipedia rules. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 
<small>Records as of April 9, 2007.</small><ref name="hockeydb"/>
:::::::: BTW: May I ask why you want to have a list including both well-recognized states and states claiming sovereignty? Deciding when some state enters the list will always be difficult. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 12:31, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
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::::::::: no, i do not agree, it is easy, just use objective rules. for example, the three conditions from Switzerland and USA or the four conditions from Montevideo, the last is what this article uses, it says so right in the introduction of the article. Then find the sources to back it up, and that is all, the argument is over [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
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!rowspan="2"|Nat
:: BTW2: If you really want to keep this list, rename it into "List of states that are sovereign or claim sovereignty", and then it's OK. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 11:30, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
!rowspan="2"|From
:::Actually, it might not be such a bad idea to rename the article to avoid confusion, but I'm still convinced that the "de facto 7" can objectively be established to posses factual sovereignity.
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:::: I saw that you are convinced, and there are many like you. But there are many against (me, on Transnistria), and there are no reliable sources stating that the 7 are sovereign. Renaming the list would simplify things for everybody. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 15:45, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
!colspan="7"|Regular Season
:::::How about simply "list of states"? With the introduction roughly as it is now, there would be no confusion as to what states are recognised and what states are not recognised.[[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 22:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
!colspan="4"|Playoffs
:::::: First of all, the introduction must change, as we saw that Montevideo cannot serve as an inclusion criterion (not enough sources). Second, the definition given to [[state]] on wikipedia includes sovereignty. So, I think that just saying "list of states" is not OK. BTW, I think I found the best criterion for organizing this list: The relationship with the UN states. How many states are not in the UN but claim sovereignty? Few, I guess. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 09:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
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!G!!W!!L!!T!!OTL!!SOL!!Pct!!G!!W!!L!!Pct
: But I don't understand why this convention should be used as a criterion for inclusion in the list. Looks like an original research to me. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 11:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
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|align=left|[[Marc Crawford]]
:: I agree with Grandmaster. Most of the countries which face separatist problems are not signatories to that convention. It is not an universal agreement and hence cannot be used as an universal criterion.--[[User:Kober|Kober]] 12:23, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
|{{flagicon|Canada}}
 
|align=left|[[1995-96 NHL season|1995]]
::: You don't understand. Wikipedia is not bound by international law. Read my answers to Grandmaster several lines above. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 13:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=left|[[1997-98 NHL season|1998]]
 
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:::: I agree that wikipedia is not bound by international law, but why exactly this particular convention, signed by 19 American states in 1933, was selected as a criterion? Who says that sovereignty of a state should be defined by this convention? It's OR. [[User:Grandmaster|Grandmaster]] 13:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
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|align=left|[[Bob Hartley]]
::::: On Wikipedia you can use any convention as long as you find reputable sources to document its use. So, the question is not "Why Montevideo?", but "Do you have sources explicitly saying that states X and Y satisfy the conditions of Montevideo?". [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 14:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
|{{flagicon|Canada}}
 
|align=left|[[1998-99 NHL season|1998]]
:::::: the sources are on this page, there are five of them, including ¨Cambridge University¨ so this is all that is needed, it satisifies the conditions for inclusion [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
|align=left|[[2002-03 NHL season|2002]]
 
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:::::::To Dpotop, I'm not sure I understand your point. This is meant to be a "list of sovereign states," but it defines sovereign state on the basis of Montevideo/declarative theory of statehood. But there's no clear reason why this should be our definition for the purpose of this page. We could alternately base it on the constitutive theory (probably a bad idea), or perhaps only list countries that more or less meet ''both'' the declarative and constitutive theories. That being said, I would agree that the declarative theory seems like the better way to go, if we are to choose, and we ought to be clear on what the declarative theory precisely means, and whether things like Transdnistria and South Ossetia really qualify. To Pernambuco: various sources have been listed. Nobody has yet cited what they actually ''say'' about the question at hand. The sources seem largely to be ones on political science, rather than international law, at any rate, so the extent to which, even if they did weigh in on this specific question, they should be considered reliable remains open to doubt. But, in any event, simply listing a bunch of titles, without any explanation of what they actually say, cannot possibly resolve a debate. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 18:50, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
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|align=left|[[Tony Granato]]
== Suggestion ==
|{{flagicon|USA}}
 
|align=left|[[2002-03 NHL season|2002]]
Is there any way we can try to make some distinctions here? There's the 192 UN member states and the Holy See, which most everyone agrees are sovereign. There used to be more non-member states that everyone would agree on, too. Switzerland, for instance, wasn't a member until 2002. The Germanies didn't join until 1973, and the Koreas until 1991. The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was not a member between 1992 and 2000, but at present, there don't seem to be any clearly recognized sovereign states, besides the Holy See/Vatican City, that are not UN members. It's also worth noting that there have also been clearly ''non-sovereign'' states that have been UN members - India was a member from 1945, for instance, as were Ukraine and Belarus, but not the other former Soviet Republics. But at present, the UN membership list seems to more or less adequately mirror the list of states that everyone considers to be sovereign. The only problematic entity on the list, I think, would be Somalia, whose ''de jure'' government is almost entirely powerless.
|align=left|[[2003-04 NHL season|2004]]
 
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I would suggest that the ROC falls into a similar situation with some of these other places that were, usually for political reasons, not UN member states, but nevertheless were generally considered to be sovereign. The ROC not only has complete physical control over the island of Taiwan, but it has done so in a completely stable manner for nearly the last 60 years. It used to be recognized by many more countries than it now is, and was once a UN member state. What changed was not so much its status, but the UN's desire to include the PRC. The ROC is clearly in a much stronger position, state-wise, than any of the other ''de facto'' states we are discussing.
|-
 
|align=left|[[Joel Quenneville]]
Palestine and Western Sahara are rather awkward entities. They're currently not listed, but both are recognized by many other countries, and the latter, at least, controls some of the territory it claims. Palestine also kind of controls territory, but that's actually a lot more complicated, in that the PA is only indirectly connected to the PLO, and it is the latter that is the internationally recognized organization of the Palestinian State, or something. But it might make sense to list these entities in a separate section of the list.
|{{flagicon|Canada}}
 
|align=left|[[2005-06 NHL season|2005]]
The other group of states, the ''de facto'' states that are completely, or, in the case of North Cyprus, almost completely, unrecognized, are more problematic. North Cyprus, which has existed for decades, and is recognized by Turkey, might be a somewhat stronger case. So might Somaliland, which seems to not only be functional, but to have developed independently of outside agents. I would suggest that these probably more or less qualify under Montevideo. But even for these, I'd suggest a separate section would be best.
|align=left|present
 
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The ones in the former Soviet Union seem to be pretty clearly the most dubious of all. The fact that Armenia doesn't recognize Nagorno-Karabakh, and that Russia doesn't recognize Transnistria, South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, seems especially problematic. These states are not entities which, on their own, control the territory they claim. They are states that are propped up by outside armies from countries that don't even recognize them. More broadly, and this applies to North Cyprus, too, I think the fact that these are states propped up by outside militaries makes their sovereign status all the more dubious. I've asked this before, and never gotten a proper answer, but if this were the 80s would you all be advocating listing [[Bophuthatswana]] and so forth, without comment, in the lists of sovereign states? I think that would be deeply responsible, and I think more or less the same thing applies here. I'm not opposed to listing them on this page, but I am opposed to listing them, without comment, alongside the rest of the list. Doing this is not a stable thing which the list has always done. It is something which has happened relatively recently. I would prefer discussing the dubious cases in their own sections. At a minimum, there should be footnotes, and possibly a different type face. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 19:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
|}
 
:I think I understand your concerns, let me share some of my thoughts.
 
:'''The SADR and Palestine'''
:Unles something has changed, the SADR is actually currently included, exactly because it does control some parts of the Western Sahara. The State of Palestine is not included, because the Palestine Authorities are a different entity, they do not currently claim independence. Palestinian statehood is one of the ingredients of the conflict and there is talk from time to time about declaring the Palestinian State. If the PA were the Palestinian State, there would obviously be no need for that. The Palestinian State as it was declared in the Eighties is, I would say (without too much knowledge about the issue), an empty legal construct devoid of factual control over any people or territories and does thus not meet the criteria of the Montevideo Convention.
 
:'''Independent South-African homelands'''
:I've thought about these and I think would actually have included these if they still existed. If you read the article about the [[Transkei]], it sais that between 1978 and 1980 its ties with South Africa had actually been severed over a territorial dispute and that it withdrew (or at least announced to) from a non-recognition pact. Despite the obvious asymmetry in power, this sounds like the mutual dealings of two states. Transkei and the other homelands that had officially been independent (not all had) might in practice have been very dependent on South Africa, but how much more so than San Marino is on Italy?
 
:'''The ROC'''
:I agree with you that the ROC is by far the most powerful out of the unrecognised states, but when you say that its sovereignity is recognised by most states, you must be referring to its ''factual'' sovereignity, because ''de jure'' Taiwan is of course considered to be part of the PRC. But isn't e.g. Somaliland in practice recognised as being just as factually sovereign? If the US want something done in Somaliland, are they not forced to deal with Somaliland state authorities?
:: Be careful with your wording. The US, the UK, and Japan ackowledge/respect/take note of the PRC position that Taiwan is part of China, but they do not recognize this position. So the US, UK, and Japan are unwilling to say what Taiwan is exactly is or part of at this time. Saying that Taiwan is considered ''de jure'' part of the PRC is as ludicrous as saying that the PRC wasn't a sovereign state from 1949-1971 because most governments didn't recognize the PRC during that time. [[User:Allentchang|Allentchang]] 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 
:'''The ex-Soviet 4'''
:While I wouldn't say that Russian state support was essential to Abkhazia's independence and I don't know about the other 3, but even they do depend militarily on their larger neighbours, isn't this in fact a rather common phenomenon the world over? Don't South Korea and Kuweit owe their independence to the USA? North Korea its independence to the PRC? Bangladesh its independence to India? Isn't Somalia completely dependent on Ethiopia, Afghanistan and Iraq on the USA? East Timor on the UN? (Etc.)
 
:'''Representation in the list'''
:It is currently already the case that all entries are grouped according to recognition and that unrecognised states are thus highlighted at the beginning of the article. I think footnotes to explain this and that are fine, and I am not opposed to generally unrecognised states being italicised, as long as they are treated alike. We should also mention incomplete recognition amongst UN members (for one, I believe the two Korea's don't recognise each other, and of course the PRC, Israel and Cyprus are not recognised by each and every country). [[User:Sephia karta|sephia karta]] 21:01, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 
::: I am just calling your attention to the question of sephia karta just before this section. The key point is that this list and the "editor's common sense" criteria for inclusion qualify as original research, because they are not backed by sources. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 22:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 
==See also==
:::: yes, but deal with each country one by one, and find sources for each, and in the case of Transnistria, this is documented, someone posted already five sources to supply the information and some of them are scientific (¨Cambridge University¨ and that kind) so that solved it for me [[User:Pernambuco|Pernambuco]] 16:44, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
*[[List of Colorado Avalanche players]]
*[[Head Coaches of the Colorado Avalanche]]
*[[Quebec Nordiques]]
*[[List of NHL players]]
*[[List of NHL seasons]]
*[[List of Stanley Cup champions]]
 
==References==
::::: (''Prior comment deleted'') See below. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a sovereignty-ascribing blog. <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 14:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
{{h4|General}}
<div class="references-small">
* {{cite web|url=http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/teamseasons.php?tid=690|title=Colorado Avalanche season statistics and records|publisher=The Internet Hockey Database|accessdate=2007-03-25}}
</div>
 
{{h4|Footnotes}}
== Why South Ossetia and Abkhazia and not North Ossetia and Chechnya? ==
<div class="references-small" style="-moz-column-count:2; column-count:2;">
<references/></div>
 
==External links==
I thought last year we were close to settling. When did the proseparatist POV prevail? And why now there is not even a footnote next to Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, Transnistria etc. clarifying their ''de-facto'' status?
*[http://www.coloradoavalanche.com/ Official website of the Colorado Avalanche]
*[http://www.avalanchedb.com/index.htm Largest Colorado Avalanche Database]
 
{{start box}}
And since the discussion is still going on, can somebody tell me why South Ossetia is included and North Ossetia is not? Seems to me Montevideo applies to them equally well. Or why aren't US states included for that matter (my one-year-old question)? Which part of the Montevideo convention does not apply? ([[User:Papa Carlo|PaC]] 04:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
{{succession box | before = [[New Jersey Devils]] | title = [[Stanley Cup]] Champions | years = [[1995-96 NHL season|1995-96]] | after = [[Detroit Red Wings]]}}
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{{Colorado Avalanche}}
:The issue is that pro-separatists, whether for good or bad, are pushing that the separatist states meet the 4th Montevideo criteria and are therefore '''sovereign, merely unrecognized'''. Having spent some considerable time Wikidebating, not to mention real money on reputable sources, the whole debate here over whether Montevideo applies and to whom we ascribe sovereignty qualifies as <u>original research</u> ''of the highest order''. Blog? Yes. Encyclopedia? No.
{{NHL}}
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By the debate here, there are African warlords who, if they've set up any sort of governing authority, could qualify as sovereign and merely unrecognized as soon as they enter into any agreement with a legitimate recognized power. An example of a common argument is that the PMR/Transnistria making any sort of agreement with Moldova, the Ukraine, etc. renders it [and people like to throw in "de facto" here and that "de jure" is immaterial] sovereign.
{{Colorado Sports}}
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ''(And let's not start up with the PMR being democratic: a "state" which produces lists of who voted for whom to prove people voted and that it is therefore a democracy.)''
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The POV is that such a thing as "de facto sovereign" exists. It exists only as an oxymoron. The associated equivalent oxymoron is "unrecognized country."
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; There are only two entities which we are in a position to list '''as an encyclopedia''', and those are:
:# States which are internationally recognized (and therefore sovereign, and therefore States (capital "S") = countries)
:# Everything else, that is, "'''Territories''' whose sovereignty is not internationally recognized." They are not "S"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. They are not "s"tates whose sovereignty is not recognized, =oxymoron. (Small "s" properly used to indicate entity within some sort of larger fererated State.) They are not "unrecognized countries" =oxymoron.
:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Plain and simple. <span style="font-size:9pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif;">&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; [[User:Vecrumba|Pēters J. Vecrumba]]</span> 14:25, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 
[[Category:Colorado Avalanche| ]]
::I agree with Pēters. During last year discussion most of us agreed that Montevideo criteria are extremely vague (especially the 4th one). Everybody here interprets it the way she/he wants. The fact that de-facto states sign some international agreements, may seem to some strong enough evidence that these states "enter into relations with the other states", but not to others. North Ossetia can sign agreements as well as South Ossetia (in fact they are signing agreements with each other all the time), why don't we call it a sovereign state as well? Who says that "signing agreements" and "entering into relations" are the same thing?
[[Category:Quebec Nordiques]]
::Or how does this interpretation of the 4th criteria sound:
[[Category:Sports clubs established in 1995]]
::: ''Entering into relations'' with other states at the very least should assume recognition from these other states, and since Abkhazia, S. Ossetia, PMR etc., are not recognized by any state, they automatically lack the "capacity to enter into relations with the other states", and therefore fail to satisfy the 4th criteria.
:: My point is that this debate is in essence about the interpretation of the inherently ambiguous Montevideo criteria, and it is not what Wikipedia articles should be doing - passing judgment on contraversial issues. Changing the criteria to something more clear, factual, and verifiable (like international recognition) will only contribute to the quality of the article. ([[User:Papa Carlo|PaC]] 15:44, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
 
[[be-x-old:Каларада Эвеланш]]
: Someone told me that this discussion is flaring up again, so here I am. The danger is that international recognition is a sufficient, but not necessary criterion to determine the existence of a sovereign state. Otherwise, we should state that the PRC was a unrecognized state or non-soverign state from 1949 to 1971 because it was not recognized by a majority of countries in the world and it was not a UN member during that time. We could say that the United States was not a soveriegn state in the early 1800's because the British diplomatically harassed those who tried to cozy up with the fledging American republic. This demonstrates the existence of a temporal POV: that is, a POV that changes with respect to time. What we can do is this: for each entity with controversial soveriegnty, we include a footnote, which says "sovereignty disputed: see so and so article for the different points of view." We should also sample various non-governmental world atlases for the purpose of verification in order to minimize the possibility of political agenda. [[User:Allentchang|Allentchang]] 16:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
[[bg:Колорадо Авеланш]]
::Er, the PRC had at least as much recognition in the 50s and 60s as the ROC has now, and I don't think anybody is suggesting we remove the ROC. UN membership is certainly irrelevant - nobody would deny that Switzerland was sovereign before 2002, for instance. As to the United States, that's ridiculous - the United States had diplomatic recognition of some sort from most European states starting in 1783. Including, er, the British, who, so far as I'm aware, never made any effort to prevent other states from having diplomatic recognition from them. At any rate, the PRC, which had effective control over the whole of mainland China, is hardly comparable to some dubious entity like South Ossetia or Transnistria, the latter of which, at least, apparently can't even issue its own passports. Of the ''de facto'' states, North Cyprus and Somaliland seem like they should potentially be mentioned. The rest seem highly problematic. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] 17:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
[[cs:Colorado Avalanche]]
::: In this discussion, I agree with you. But I would go farther and push for the pure and simple deletion of this article. Why? Because the criteria for including states in it is either subjective and/or based on [[WO:OR]] (Montevideo, etc), or corresponds to some other clearly-defined notion, such as UN membership, recognition, etc. Ask yourselves this question: What states would you have in this list, and which criterion not involving original research allows their inclusion. [[User:Dpotop|Dpotop]] 19:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
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