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==Proposals, June 2007==
{{Original research}}
{{Cleanup|October 2006}}
 
If you create a stub type, please move its discussion to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/June 2007|the June archive]], add it to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types|list of stub types]], and add it to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive|archive summary]].
'''Brazilian Portuguese''' is the [[dialect]] of the [[Portuguese language]] written and spoken by virtually all the 188 million inhabitants of [[Brazil]] and by a couple million [[Brazilian immigrants]], mainly in [[United States]], [[Portugal]], [[Canada]], [[Japan]] and [[Paraguay]].
 
<!--add proposals below, with === level headers-->
Brazilian Portuguese is a polemic term, since many linguistists claim the Brazilian language is a variant of Portuguese (such as the European Portuguese, Angolan Portuguese etc. - for some of them, even Galician) and not an independent language or dialect. This fight between "Brazilianists" and "Lusophonists" has been preventing the spread Portuguese language as a foreign language, since most schools in non-Portuguese-speaking countries teach either the one or the other variant.
===NEW PROPOSALS===
<!--Please add any new proposals below here using the same header level-->
 
<br /><br />
The differences between [[Portuguese language|Portuguese]] from [[Portugal]] and [[Brazilian Portuguese]] are no greater than those one might find when comparing [[British English|British]] and [[American English]]. The Brazilian formal written standard, which is defined by law and by international agreements with other Portuguese-speaking countries, is very similar to the European one; but there are nevertheless many differences in spelling, lexicon and grammar. European and Brazilian writers also have markedly different preferences when choosing between supposedly equivalent words or constructs.
 
=== Personality & Preference Inventory===
Nevertheless, the cultural prestige and strong government support accorded to the written standard has maintained the unity of the language over the whole country, and ensured that all regional varieties remain fully intelligible. Starting in the 1960s, the nationwide dominance of TV networks based in the southeast ([[Rio de Janeiro]], [[São Paulo]] and [[Minas Gerais]]) has made the dialect of that region into an unofficial standard for the spoken language as well.
<br />
Can't find it and not sure how to put the info across as an NPOV. Will suggest stub. Can anyone help? <br />[[User:AVISSER|Cookie Monster]] 10:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{tl|GB-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:Great Britain MP stubs (1701-1800)]] ===
== Language History ==
:''Moved from [[WP:SFD]] [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)''
===The Portuguese legacy===
The existance of the Portuguese language in Brazil is a legacy of [[Portuguese colonization of the Americas]]. The first wave of Portuguese-speaking immigrants settled in Brazil in the [[16th Century]], yet the language was not widely used then. For a time Portuguese coexisted with the [[Lingua Geral]], a [[lingua franca]] based on [[Amerindian languages]] that was used by the [[Society of Jesus|Jesuit]] missionaries; as well as with various [[Africa]]n languages spoken by the hundreds of thousands of slaves brought to the country between the 17th to 19th centuries.
 
'''Propose creation''' of new stub template, and associated category, plus renaming of another related stub category.<br />The existing {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} is designed for [[Members of Parliament]] for the [[Parliament of the United Kingdom]], which was only created in 1801 after the [[Acts of Union 1800]]. However, {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} is also being being used for members of the predecessor [[Parliament of Great Britain]] (1707-1800), members of which should be categorised separately.<br />The proposed structure can be summarised as:
By the end of the [[18th century]], however, Portuguese had affirmed itself as the national language. That status was
* [[Parliament of Great Britain]] → [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain]] → {{tl|GB-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:Great Britain MP stubs (1701-1800)]]
further consolidated with the arrival in Brazil of over 1.4 million new immigrants from Portugal during the 19th and 20th centuries. The aborted colonization attempts by the [[France|French]] in [[Rio de Janeiro]] in the 16th century and by the [[Netherlands|Dutch]] in the Northeast in the 17th century had negligible effect on the language. Even the substantial non-Portuguese-speaking immigration waves of the late 19th and early 20th century — mostly from Italy, Spain, Germany, Japan, and Lebanon — were linguistically integrated into the Portuguese-speaking majority within a couple of generations.
* [[Parliament of the United Kingdom]] → [[:Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament]] → {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:British MP stubs]] (should be renamed to [[:Category:United Kingdom MP stubs]])
--[[User:BrownHairedGirl|BrownHairedGirl]] <small>[[User_talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 21:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
*How is this for numbers - are there currently 60+ stubs which could do with this? If not, certainly an upmerged template is a good option until such time as there are. I agree about the change in the name of the category if a split is warranted. Not entirely convinced by the name GB-MP-stub, but I can't think of a better one... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
===Influences from other languages===
*I don't have tools to allow an easy count, but I am currently running [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain]] through [[WP:AWB|AWB]] to split it into [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for English constituencies|English]], [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for Scottish constituencies|Scottish]] and [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for Welsh constituencies|Welsh]] sub-categories, and I reckon that there are well over a hundred stub articles for which {{tl|GB-MP-stub}} would be useful. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|BrownHairedGirl]] <small>[[User_talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 14:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The evolution of Brazilian Portuguese has certainly been influenced by the languages it supplanted: first the Amerind tongues of the natives, then the various African languages brought by the slaves, and finally the speeches of the European and Asian immigrants. The influence is clearly detected in the Brazilian Portuguese lexicon, which today is full of words of [[Tupi-guarani]], [[Yorubá]] origin, among others.
*New cat would get 108, though there's the complication that 25 would have to be double-stubbed, so this isn't exactly what you'd call a "clean split". Also bear in mind that there's existing subcats by a) party, and b) constituent nation, as well as c) currency. Given that this is somewhat in the spirit of the third axis, whose permcat was deleted ({{cl|Current British MP stubs}}, {{cl|current British MPs}}), I wonder if we shouldn't save ourselves some work by waiting until the permcats stop to-ing and fro-ing, and then come up with a consistent scheme. Oh, and if this does go ahead, I'd favour {{tl|Britain-MP-stub}} for the template. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===Miscellaneous double-stubbing mashup===
From [[South America]], words deriving from the [[Tupi-Guaraní]] family of languages are particularly prevalent in place names (''[[Itaquaquecetuba]],'' ''[[Pindamonhangaba]],'' ''[[Caruaru]]'', ''[[Ipanema]]''). The native languages contributed the names for most of the plants and animals found in Brazil, such as ''arara'' ("[[macaw]]"), ''jacaré'' ("South American [[alligator]]"), ''tucano'' ("[[toucan]]"), ''mandioca'' ("[[manioc]]"), ''pipoca'' ("[[popcorn]]"), ''abacaxi'' ("[[pineapple]]"), and many more. Many of these words entered the Brazilian Portuguese lexicon already in the 16th century, and some of them, like ''pipoca'' and ''abacaxi'' were eventually borrowed by European Portuguese and later even into other European languages.
The following all have double-stubbings of more than 80, where one of the types is in the 600..800 range.
*{{cl|Pittsburgh geography stubs}} 81
*{{cl|New York City geography stubs}} 85
*{{cl|United Kingdom hospital stubs}} 80
*{{cl|American biologist stubs}} 75
*{{cl|Zimbabwean sculptor stubs}} 72
*{{cl|Canadian lacrosse biography stubs}} 68
*{{cl|Hungarian Olympic medalist stubs}} 69
*{{cl|Malaysian building and structure stubs}} 67
*{{cl|Australian poet stubs}} 65
*{{cl|United Kingdom publishing company stubs}} 65
Most of the parentages should be obvious; two that are less so are Hospital_stubs+United_Kingdom_medical_organisation_stubs and Asian_building_and_structure_stubs+Malaysia_geography_stubs (the latter perhaps being food for thought as to what -geo- stubs are actually used for, "on the ground".) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*Malaysia's been long overdue for its own struct stub template at least, and now a category seems a good move - and like similar struct stubs, its parents should be {{cl|Asian building and structure stubs}} and {{cl|Malaysia stubs}} (not {{cl|Malaysia geography stubs}}, since buildings aren't normally grouped in with geo-stubs). I'd be inclined to put the UK hospitals in {{cl|Hospital stubs}}, {{cl|United Kingdom medical organisation stubs}} ''and'' {{cl|United Kingdom building and structure stubs}}, since the articles are likely to be at least in part about the buildings themselves, much like with theatre stubs and museum stubs. Yes to all the others (72 Zimbabwean sculptor stubs? Whoda thought...?), though I'd ask whether the NYC and Pittsburgh geo-stubs are likely to affect the way the rest of the state-geo-stubs are likely to be split in future... will it make for problems with Penn and NYState later? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
**I forgot the ob. whoda thought?: thanks for correcting that omission. :) I shouldn't have said "parentage", I really meant "constituents of the double-stubbing" (though in most cases they're the same thing). I don't think splitting by city is going to be a problem; elsewhere we've split by county, but then we tend to end up upmerging them to μSAs, MSAs, CSAs, unofficial regions with articles defining their scope, or totally made up ones. Cities of significant size will invariably correspond to (the population centres of) *SAs, so they can just be made a subcat. (Chicago and Chicagoland are already done this way, for example.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===US schools by state===
The African languages provided many words too, especially related to food, such as ''[[quindim]]'', ''[[acarajé]]'', ''[[moqueca]]''; and household concepts, such as ''cafuné'' ("caress on the head"), ''curinga'' ("[[joker (playing card)|joker card]]"), and ''caçula'' ("youngest child"). [[Capoeira]], [[marimba]], and [[samba]] are also the African ([[Bantu languages|Bantu]]) words borrowed by Brazilian Portuguese that gained popularity, and these were also gained by European Portuguese and English.
*{{cl|Iowa school stubs}} 73
*{{cl|Nebraska school stubs}} 71
*{{cl|Alabama school stubs}} 69
*{{cl|Utah school stubs}} 65
*{{cl|South Carolina school stubs}} 64
Similar deal to below. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*third time '''Speedy''' support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Speedy support for the first four'''. I'm not happy with lumping the Carolinas together, though. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
**Hey, it's good enough for the NFL... That was a typo, fixed. (If one really had to lump the two, I think "Carolinas" would be more usual, though the USCB defines also smaller component regions of the South.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
***"Nothing could be finah than to be in Carolinah in the moooooooorning..." (and the song never says which one)...[[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 03:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===US radio stations by state===
There are also many borrowings from other [[Europe]]an languages such as [[English language|English]] (esp. words connected to technology and finance), [[French language|French]] (food, furniture and luxurious fabrics and concepts), [[German language|German]] and [[Italian language|Italian]], and, to a lesser extent, from Asian languages such as [[Japanese language|Japanese]]. The latter borrowings are also mostly related to food and drinks or culture-bound concepts, such as ‘’quimono’’, from Japanese [[kimono]].
*{{cl|Pennsylvania radio station stubs}} 131
*{{cl|Florida radio station stubs}} 115
*{{cl|North Carolina radio station stubs}} 110
*{{cl|New York radio station stubs}} 92
*{{cl|South Carolina radio station stubs}} 84
*{{cl|Illinois radio station stubs}} 64
*{{cl|Indiana radio station stubs}} 60
*{{cl|Minnesota radio station stubs}} 59
All are currently populated from double-upmerged templates, so again I'm inclined to speedy these. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*Again '''Speedy''' Support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===European actor subcats===
The influence of those languages in the phonology and grammar of Brazilian Portuguese have been minor. Also, it is claimed that the virtual disappearance of certain verb inflections in Brazil, such as the past pluperfect and the second person plural, and the Brazilian's marked preference for compound tenses, recall the grammatical simplification that is observed in the formation of pidgins. However, the same or similar processes can be verified in the European variant.
I've been creating a number of upmerged stub templates for European actors, but two of them are now at exactly 60, so no longer need to be: {{tl|Denmark-actor-stub}} and {{tl|Spain-actor-stub}}. I propose to create cats fairly speedily. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Speedy''' support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{Tl|Lithuania-footy-bio-stub}}===
Regardless of these borrowings, it must be kept in mind that Brazilian Portuguese is not literally a [[Portuguese creole]], since both grammar and vocabulary remain real Portuguese.
Upmerged template with over 60 articles. Suggest speedy create cat.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
*Agree with suggestion. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|geology stubs}} subcats===
==Written and spoken languages==
*{{cl|tectonics stubs}} 107
The written language taught in Brazilian schools has historically been based on the standard of Portugal, and Portuguese writers have often been regarded as models by Brazilian authors and teachers. Nonetheless, this closeness and aspiration to unity was in the 20th severely weakened by nationalist movements in literature and the arts, which awakened in many Brazilian artists the desire of a true national writing, uninfluenced by standards in Portugal. Later on, agreements were made as to preserve at least the the orthographical unity throughout the Portuguese-speaking world, including the African and Asian variants of the language.
*{{cl|geochronology stubs}} 122
*{{cl|volcanology stubs}} 63
Parent is oversized; these look to be viable, and not to overlap too much, if I'm understanding the category structure correctly. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:Fully support split & willing to help populate as time permits. [[User:Vsmith|Vsmith]] 02:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:Support; good idea. [[User:Avenue|Avenue]] 03:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:Support - will sit nicely along glaciology-stub. With the usual caveat about volcanology (vulanology?) not being for actual volcanoes, of course. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 06:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
:Support. Makes sense to me with the assumption that all these stubs will be under the roof of Geology project. [[User:Solarapex|Solarapex]] 10:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
::They'll all be subcats of {{cl|geology stubs}}, and a project link or banner on the category page wouldn't seem amiss. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|dramatist and playwright stubs}}===
On the other hand, the spoken language suffered none of the constraints that applied to the written language. Brazilians, when concerned with pronunciation, look up to what is considered the national standard variety, and never the European one. Moreover, Brazilians in general have had very little exposure or sometimes even interest in the European speech, even after the advent of radio, TV and movies. The language spoken in Brazil has evolved largely independently of that spoken in Portugal.
I don't have an exact count for this (though I suspect it's close to threshold just from the UK), but surely we should have this given the two existing national D&P stub types. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 17:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|United Kingdom children's writer stubs}}===
==Formal written Brazilian Portuguese==
Oversized parent, 64 of them are in the "children's writers" tree, and no other "by genre" cat. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The written Brazilian Portuguese standard differs from the European one to about the same extent that [[American and British English differences|American written English differs from British English]]; or to the same extent observed among the national variants of French and Spanish. The differences extend to spelling, lexicon, and grammar.
*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 22:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===Spelling{{cl|legal differencesterm stubs}}===
At least 90 of them; parent is of course very oversized. Existing subcat {{cl|Latin legal stubs}} (should be "phrases"). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The Brazilian spellings of certain words differ from those used in Portugal and the other Portuguese-speaking countries. Some of these differences are merely orthographical, but others reflect true differences in pronunciation.
 
==={{cl|Electronic sports stubs}}===
A major subset of the differences relates to words with ''c'' and ''p'' followed by ''c'', ''ç'' or ''t''. In many cases, the letters ''c'' or ''p'' have become silent in all varieties of Portuguese, a common phonetic change in Romance languages (cf. Spanish ''objeto'', French ''objet''). Accordingly, they stopped being written down in BP, but are still written in other countries. For example, we have EP ''acção'' / BP ''ação'' ("action"), EP ''óptimo'' / BP ''ótimo'' ("optimum"), and so on, where the consonant is silent both in BP and in EP, but the words are spelled differently. Only in a small number of words is the consonant silent in Brazil and pronounced elsewhere, or vice-versa.
There is an [[Electronic sports]] category ({{cl|Electronic sports}}) but no stub. I think it would be a good idea to create one for a bunch of [[Electronic sports]] articles that may begin to arise as [[Electronic sports|esports]] hits national TV. One such is the [[Complexity Gaming]] article. [[User:Digx|Digx]] 08:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
:'''oppose''' need enough existing stub articles. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 04:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|United States media company stubs}}===
However BP has retained those "silent" consonants in a few cases, such as ''detectar'' ("to detect"). In particular, BP generally distinguishes in sound and writing between ''secção'' ("section" as in ''anatomy'' or ''drafting'') and ''seção'' ("section" of an organization); whereas EP uses ''secção'' for both senses.
Parent oversized -- indeed, just about double-oversized -- 91 in the corresponding permcat hierarchy. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
*Already listed with 3 or 4 others on the to do list . [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
**D'oh. Forgot to check for redlink-links... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===Split of {{Tl|linebacker-stub}} and {{tl|runningback-stub}}===
Another major set of differences is the BP usage of ''ô'' or ''ê'' in many words where EP has ''ó'' or ''é'', such as BP ''neurônio'' / EP ''neurónio'' ("neuron") and BP ''arsênio'' / EP ''arsénio''. These spelling differences are due to genuinely different pronunciations. In EP, the vowels ''e'' and ''o'' may be open (''é'' or ''ó'') or closed (''ê'' or ''ô'') when they are stressed before one of the nasal consonants ''m'', ''n'' followed by a vowel, but in BP they are always close in this environment. The variant spellings are necessary in those cases because the general Portuguese spelling rules mandate a stress diacritic in those words, and the Portuguese diacritics also encode vowel quality.
Both are over 700, propose split by decade of birth as per precedent set by other position splits. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 23:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 
*Support this and below, per prodigious quantity of precedents (and all bot-populable, to boot). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Another source of variation is the spelling of the [{{unicode|ʒ}}] sound before ''e'' and ''i''. By Portuguese spelling rules, that sound can be written either as ''j'' (favored in BP for certain words) or as ''g'' (favored in EP). Thus, for example, we have BP ''berinjela''/ EP ''beringela'' ("eggplant").
:*I'd be very grateful if someone could popoulate these by bot, my knowledge of that side of things is poor, I will go through and try to pick up anything the bot misses, otherwise it will be a long hard slog. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Formal versus informal registers==
 
{{Original research}}
 
The linguistic situation of Brazil can be described as one of extreme [[diglossia]], the intimate coexistence of two varieties or "registers" of the language — "formal" and "informal" — which are used simultaneously, mixed in continuously varying proportions depending on the speaker and occasion. While diglossia inevitably develops in every literate society, it is much more striking in Brazil than in English or in European Portuguese.
 
The formal register of Brazilian Portuguese has both a written and spoken form. The written formal register (FW) is used in almost all printed media and written communication, is uniform throughout the country, and is the "Portuguese" officially taught at school. The spoken formal register (FS) is basically a phonetic rendering of the written form: it is used only in very formal situations like speeches or ceremonies, by educated people who wish to stress their education; or when reading directly out of a written text. While FS is necessarily uniform in lexicon and grammar, it shows noticeable regional variations in pronunciation. Finally the informal register (IS) is almost never written down (basically only in artistic works, or in very informal contexts such as adolescent chat rooms). It is used to some extent in virtually all oral communication outside of those formal contexts — even by well educated speakers — and shows considerable regional variations in pronunciation, lexicon, and even grammar.
 
For example, consider the following sample of formal written Portuguese (FW), as it would be written by a secretary, and its formal spoken version (FS) in the São Paulo dialect and semi-literal English translation (EN):
 
:'''EN:''' "We need to inform everybody that there won't be power for the elevators."
:'''FW:''' ''Precisamos informar a todos que faltará energia para os elevadores.''
:'''FS:''' {{IPA|[presi'zɐ̃muz infor'mar a 'todus ki 'nɐ̃w ave'ra ener'ʒia 'para us eleva'doris]}}
 
Here is how the same person could deliver the same message orally, in informal spoken register (IS):
 
:'''IS (as it would be written):''' (A gente) tem que falar pra todo mundo que vai faltar luz pr'os elevadores.
:'''IS (IPA):''' {{IPA|[a 'ʒenti 'tẽĩ ki fa'la pra 'todu 'mũdu ki nɐ̃u vai te ener'ʒia prus eleva'doris]}}
:'''EN:''' "(We) have to tell 'all the world' that there won't be light for the elevators."
 
This examples shows that FS and IS can differ in
:lexicon: ''precisamos'' ("we need to")→ ''temos que'' ("we have to"), ''informar'' ("to inform")→ ''falar'' ("to talk") - in IS there won't be a big difference between "falar" (talk/speak) and "dizer" (say), since only the the form "falar" is used. ''energia'' ("energy")→ ''luz'' ("light")
:change of grammatical person: ''temos'' (verb "ter" conjugated in the first person plural) → ''(a gente) tem'' (the expression "a gente" (lit. "the person"), in this case ommited, replaces the pronoun "nós" (we) in IS; also, the verb shall be conjugated in the singular (which in general causes confusion among uneducated speakers)
:choice of verbal form: ''terá'' → ''vai ter'' (the form "ir" (go) + infinitive is used in IS rather than the simple future);
:contractions: ''para os'' → ''pros'' ("for the");
:loss of final ''-r'': {{IPA|[fa'lar]}} → {{IPA|[fa'la]}}.
 
* Plural: it may also desappear depending on the level of education or formality of the speaker "os elevadores" >> "os elevador". But it is considered inappropriate even in IS.
 
* Change of existential verb: ''há'' → ''tem'' (both can be transalated as "there is/are", but the second one uses the verb "ter"(have)in a sense of existence, whereas it is not possible in the in FW);
 
This example is somewhat extreme and hypothetical: the speech of most people will be some mixture of the informal (IS) and formal (FS) spoken registers, the proportions varying according to the speaker's education and the situation. Thus, for example, the same person may deliver something close to the FS version when speaking in a TV interview. The adjustment is largely unconscious, and it is not unusual to hear informal and formal constructs mixed in the same speech, or even in the same sentence. As is usually the case in diglossic communities, an educated person who has to write down a spoken text (e.g. a secretary taking dictation) will unconsciously translate IS into FW, and back again when delivering the message in person.
 
==Impact of Brazilian Portuguese==
The cultural influence of Brazilian Portuguese in the rest of the Portuguese-speaking world has greatly increased in the last decades of the 20th century, due to the popularity of [[Brazilian music]] and [[telenovela|Brazilian soap operas]]. Since Brazil joined [[Mercosul]], the South American free trade zone, Portuguese has been increasingly studied as a second language in Spanish-speaking partner countries. A [[mixed language]] of Portuguese and Spanish, [[nickname]]d [[Portuñol]] or Portunhol, is spoken in regions bordering countries such as [[Uruguay]].
 
Many words of Brazilian origin (also used in other Portuguese-language countries) have also entered into [[English language|English]]: [[samba]], [[bossa nova]], [[cruzeiro]], [[milreis]], [[capoeira]], and especially [[marimba]]. While originally Angolan, the words "capoeira" and "samba" only became famous worldwide because of their popularity in Brazil.
 
After independence in [[1822]], Brazilian idioms with African and Amerindian influences were brought to Portugal by returning [[Portuguese-Brazilian]]s (''Luso-Brasileiros'' in Portuguese) [and some Amerindian Brazilians (''Indio-Brasileiros'' in Portuguese), [[Afro-Brazilian]]s (''Afro-Brasileiros'' in Portuguese), [[mestiços]], [[mulato]]s, and [[zambo]]s], who brought rich culture mixed with African and Native American elements.
 
==Lexicon==
{{unreferencedsect|date=July 2006}}
The vocabularies of Brazilian and European Portuguese also differ in a couple of thousand words, many of which refer to concepts that were introduced separately in BP and EP.
 
Since the Brazilian independence in 1822, BP has tended to borrow words from English and French. However, BP generally adopts foreign words with minimal adjustments, while EP tends to apply deeper morphological changes{{Fact|date=February 2007}}. However, there are instances of BP [[transliteration|transliterating]] English words, whereas EP retains the original form - hence ''estoque'' and ''stock''. Finally, one dialect often borrowed a word while the other coined a new one from native elements. So one has, for example
:BP ''mouse'' ← English "mouse" versus EP ''rato'' ← literal translation: "rat"
:BP ''esporte'' (alternatives: ''desporto'', ''desporte'') ← English "sport" versus EP ''desporto'' ← Spanish ''deporte''
:BP ''jaqueta'' ← English "jacket" versus EP ''blusão'' ← EP ''blusa'' ← French ''blouse''
:BP ''concreto'' ← English "concrete" versus EP ''betão'' ← French ''beton''
:BP ''grampeador'' ("stapler") ← ''grampo'' ← German ''Krampe'' versus EP ''agrafador'' ← ''agrafo'' ← French ''agrafe''.
A few other examples are given in the following table:
 
<center>
 
{| border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"
|-----
| '''Brazil''' || '''Portugal''' || '''English'''
|-----
| abridor de latas || abre-latas || can opener
|-----
| água-viva || alforreca, água-viva || jellyfish
|-----
| AIDS || SIDA || AIDS
|-----
| alho poró || alho-porro || leek
|-----
| aquarela || aguarela || watercolor
|-----
| aterrissagem || aterragem || landing
|-----
| banheiro, lavabo, sanitário || casa de banho, lavabos, sanitários
| bathroom
|-----
| breque, freio || travão, freio || brake
|-----
| brócolis || brócolos || broccoli
|-----
| câncer, cancro (mostly rural) || cancro
| cancer
|-----
| carona || boleia || hitchhiking
|-----
| carteira (or "carta") de motorista || carta de condução
| driving licence
|-----
| carteira de identidade || bilhete de identidade
| ID card
|-----
| celular || telemóvel || cell phone (US), mobile phone (UK)
|-----
| Cingapura || Singapura || Singapore
|-----
| dublagem || dobragem || dubbing
|-----
| durex || fita-cola || clear tape
|-----
| Band-Aid, adesivo || adesivo,<br>penso rápido
| plaster (UK),<br>Band-Aid (US)
|-----
| time, equipe || equipa, equipe || team
|-----
| favela || bairro de lata || slum quarters
|-----
| ferrovia || caminho de ferro || railway
|-----
| fila || bicha, fila || line (US), queue (UK)
|-----
| fones de ouvido
| auscultadores,<br>auriculares, fones
| headphones
|-----
| gol || golo || goal
|-----
| Irã || Irão || Iran
|-----
| Islã || Islão || Islam
|-----
| jaqueta, blusão || blusão || jacket
|-----
| locatário, arrendatário || arrendatário
| tenant
|-----
| maiô || fato de banho || woman's swimsuit
|-----
| mamadeira || biberão || baby bottle
|-----
| metrô || metro,<br>metropolitano || subway
|-----
| nadadeiras, barbatanas || barbatanas
| swimming fins
|-----
| ônibus || autocarro || bus
|-----
| kombi, perua (obsolete), van || carrinha || station wagon (US), estate car (UK)
|-----
| rúgbi || râguebi || rugby
|-----
| requeijão, queijo cremoso || queijo creme
| cream cheese
|-----
| secretária eletrônica || atendedor de chamadas
| answering machine
|-----
| trem || comboio || train
|-----
| uísque || ''whisky'', uísque || whisk(e)y
|}
</center>
 
</tr> Some words, which are often mistakenly given as examples of dialectal lexical differences, actually do not denote the same concepts. For example: "abacaxi" and "ananás" designate two different kinds of pineapple; "grama" often refers to any kind of grass in a garden or urban area whereas "relva" or "relvado" refers to natural grass of forests, etc.
Some of the words shown in only one column (like ''comboio'', ''atendedor de chamadas'', and ''mamadeira'') do exist in the other dialect, but are rarely used.
 
==Grammar==
===Syntactic and morphological features===
===The progressive===
The Portuguese language makes extensive use of verbs in the progressive tense, almost as in English.
 
BP seldom has the present continuous construct ''estar a'' + infinitive, which, in contrast, has become quite common in EP. In BP, the present continuous must be expressed by ''estar'' + [[gerund]]. Thus Brazilians will always write ''ela está dançando'' ("she is dancing"), never ''ela está a dançar''. The same restriction applies to several other uses of the gerund: BP always writes ''ficamos conversando'' ("we kept on talking") and ''ele trabalha cantando'' ("he sings while he works"), never ''ficamos a conversar'' and ''ele trabalha a cantar'' as is the case in most varieties of EP.
 
It must be noted, however, that BP retains the combination ''a'' + infinitive for uses that are not related to continued action, such as ''voltamos a correr'' ("we went back to running"), and that some dialects of EP will also tend to use ''estar'' + [[gerund]] in the same way as Brazilians.
 
====''Ter'' instead of ''haver''====
In a few compound verb tenses, BP uses the auxiliary ''ter'' (originally "to hold", "to own"), where EP would normally use ''haver'' ("shall, will"). In particular, the EP construction ''há-de cantar'' ("he will sing" or "he shall sing") is hardly ever used in BP.
BP also uses ''ter'' in existential sense, whereas EP would use ''haver'', hence "não tem dinheiro" instead of "não há dinheiro" ("there is no money").
 
====Personal pronouns====
{{main|Portuguese pronouns}}
 
====Syntax====
Brazilians normally place the [[pronoun|object pronoun]] before the verb ([[proclitic]] position), as in ''ele me viu'' ("he saw me"). In many such cases, the proclisis would be considered awkward or even grammatically incorrect in EP, in which the pronoun is generally placed after the verb ([[enclitic]] position), namely ''ele viu-me''. However, formal BP still follows EP in avoiding starting a sentence with a proclitic pronoun; so both will write ''Deram-lhe o livro'' ("They gave her the book") instead of ''Lhe deram o livro.''
 
=====Contracted forms=====
Even in the most formal contexts, BP never uses the contracted combinations of direct and indirect object pronouns which are sometimes used in EP, such as ''me'' + ''o'' = ''mo'', ''lhe'' + ''as'' = ''lhas''. Instead, the indirect clitic is replaced by preposition + strong pronoun: thus BP writes ''ela o deu para mim'' ("she gave it to me") instead of EP ''ela deu-mo''. But this form is practically used only in [[Portugal]].
 
=====Mesoclisis=====
The [[mesoclitic]] placement of pronouns (between the verb stem and its inflection suffix) is viewed as archaic in BP, and therefore is restricted to very formal situations. Hence the phrase ''Eu dar-lhe-ia'', still current in EP, would be normally written ''Eu lhe daria'' in BP. Incidentally, a marked fondness for enclitic and mesoclitic pronouns was one of the many memorable eccentricities of former Brazilian President [[Jânio Quadros]], as in his famous quote ''Bebo-o porque é líquido, se fosse sólido comê-lo-ia'' ("I drink it [liquor] because it is liquid, if it were solid I would eat it")
 
=====Reflexive verbs=====
Brazilian Portuguese often treats as intransitive certain verbs that in EP are reflexive, and therefore would require a reflexive weak pronoun. Thus, for example, BP would often write ''ele lembra'' ("he remembers") instead of ''ele se lembra'', or ''eu deito'' "I lie down" instead of ''eu me deito.'' An exception to the rule may be the state of Rio Grande do Sul, where such verbs are often used as reflexive, possibly because of influence from Spanish as spoken in neighbouring Argentina and Uruguay - and formerly in Rio Grande do Sul as well.
 
===Preferences===
There are many differences between formal written BP and EP that are simply a matter of different preferences between two alternative words or constrictions that are both officially valid and acceptable.
 
====Simple tenses and complex tenses====
BP often uses ''iria cantar'' ("he would sing") instead of the sythetic ''cantaria'' ("he would sing"), using the verb "ir" as a verb that expresses modalitiy. Some simple tenses, except from the simple present, simple past, imperfect past and subjuctives, are usually replaced by a complex tenses, such as in:<br /><br />
S. Future : ''eu cantarei'' , complex form: ''eu vou cantar'' ("ir"+infinitive)<br />
Hypothetical Future : ''eu cantaria'' , complex form: ''eu iria/ia cantar'' ("ir"+infinitive)<br />
Past Pefect : ''eu cantara'' , complex form: ''eu tinha cantado'' ("ter"+past participle)"<br />
<br /><br />
Also, the spoken BP usually uses the verb ''ter'' ("have", sense of possesion) and never ''haver'' ("have" or "there to be") , esp. as an auxiliary (as it can be seen above) and as a verb of existence.
<br /><br />
Written: ''ele havia/tinha cantado''<br />
Spoken: ''ele tinha cantado''<br />
<br />
Written: ''ele podia haver/ter dito'' (he could have said)<br />
Spoken: ''ele podia ter dito''
 
===Split of {{Tl|England-footy-midfielder-stub}} and defendesr and strikers===
==BP/EP differences in the formal spoken language==
Different shaped ball same solution by decade of birth split Defender and Midifelders are over 700 and strikers are just shy of 600 (stitch in time) nb goalkeepers are way off at less than 300 and not worth splitting yet.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 23:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
=== Phonology ===
In many ways, compared to [[European Portuguese]] (EP), Brazilian Portuguese (BP) is conservative in its phonology. In some areas of Brazil, the speech is close to that of Portuguese as spoken in the 16th and 17th centuries.{{Fact|date=February 2007}} This also occurs in [[São Tomé and Príncipe|São Tomean]] Portuguese.
 
==={{cl|military decoration stubs}}===
====Vowels====
This looks viable as a subcat of {{cl|order, decoration, and medal stubs}}, and more to the point will help get rid of a few from {{cl|military stubs}}, which despite some recent shrinkage is still oversized. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Brazilian speakers generally pronounce all vowels more clearly and distinctly than the European speakers. In the syllables that follow the stressed one, BP generally pronounces ''o'' as {{IPA|[u]}}, ''a'' as {{IPA|[ɐ]}}, and ''e'' as {{IPA|[i]}}. Some dialects of BP follow these rules also for vowels before the stressed syllable. In contrast, EP [[elision|elides]] some unstressed vowels, or reduces them to a very short, near central unrounded vowel {{IPA|[ɨ]}}, a sound that does not exist in BP. Thus, for example, the word ''setembro'' is {{IPA|[seˈtẽbɾu]}} in BP but {{IPA|[s(ɨ)ˈtẽbɾu]}} in EP.
 
==={{cl|Seine-et-Marne geography stubs}}===
====Consonants====
The region cat {{cl|Île-de-France geography stubs}} is oversized now, so time to split into departments. Only this one is clearly over threshold at the moment, at 409 (cough). However, some others are close-ish Val-de-Marne, 49; Yvelines, 41; Seine-Saint-Denis, 40; Essonne, 39; and Val-d'Oise, 37. Paris is only at 32, but when one adds in the {{tl|Streets of Paris-stub}} (see /D), it's also rather close. I'll create templates for all of them, and then see what happens. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
One of the most noticeable tendencies of BP is the [[palatalization]] of {{IPA|/d/}} and {{IPA|/t/}} in some regions, which are pronounced as {{IPA|[d<sup>ʒ</sup>]}} and {{IPA|[t<sup>ʃ</sup>]}}, respectively, before {{IPA|/i/}}. The word ''presidente'' "president", for example, is pronounced {{IPA|[pɾeziˈdẽt<sup>ʃ</sup>i]}} in these regions of Brazil, but {{IPA|[pɾɨziˈdẽt(ɨ)]}} in Portugal. This pronunciation began in Rio de Janeiro and is often still associated with this city, but is now standard in other major cities such as Belo Horizonte and Salvador, and has spread more recently to some regions of São Paulo (due to the migrants from other regions), where it is common in most speakers under 40 or so. It has always been standard among Brazil's [[Japanese people|Japanese]] community, since this is also a feature of the [[Japanese language]].
:As I said at /D, I object to adding the streets to that section. Road-stubs aren't listed as geo-stubs for anywhere else, so why Paris? Far better to make a France-road-stub and category for it to upmerge to. As to Seine-et-Marne's category and the other templates, though, that sounds fine. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 03:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
::I don't especially care in this instance, since one the first one's done it'll be off my to-do list (hopefully for some considerable time), but as I said the previous time you made this objection, I don't see the expansion-oriented logic of lumping urban streets, and articles like [[Place du Colonel Fabien]], in with say [[A151 autoroute]] (not marked as a stub, but looks like one to me). Some common sense about when things "must" be sorted by type (as well as when they must not be) would be a plan. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
:I just don't see why France should be treated any differently to the UK, US, Australia, and Canada - in each of those cases, urban roads are not treated as geo-stubs, they quite logically get road-stub. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|political term stubs}}===
BP tends to break up clusters where the first sound is not {{IPA|/r/}}, {{IPA|/l/}}, or {{IPA|/s/}} by the insertion of {{IPA|/i/}} (although clusters ending in {{IPA|/l/}} or {{IPA|/r/}} are allowed, as are {{IPA|/ks/}} and sometimes {{IPA|/kt/}}), and similarly to eliminate words ending with consonants other than {{IPA|/r/}}, {{IPA|/l/}}, or {{IPA|/s/}} by the addition of {{IPA|/i/}}. Syllable-final {{IPA|/l/}} is vocalized to {{IPA|[w]}}, and syllable-final {{IPA|/r/}} is weakened in most regions to {{IPA|[χ]}} or {{IPA|[h]}}, or dropped entirely (especially at the ends of words). Mute of syllable-final [r], or [[rhotic and non-rhotic accents|non-rhoticity]], is not only affected by accent features of Native American and African languages, but also by accent features of [[Japanese language|Japanese]] and [[German language|German]] when descendants of [[Japanese-Brazilian]] and [[German-Brazilian]] settlers speak Portuguese. This sometimes results in rather striking transformations of common words. The brand name "MacDonald's", for example, is rendered {{IPA|[makiˈdõnawd<sup>ʒ</sup>i]}}, and the word "rock" is rendered as {{IPA|[ˈhɔki]}}. (Initial {{IPA|/r/}} and doubled 'rr' are pronounced in BP as {{IPA|[h]}}, as with syllable-final {{IPA|/r/}}.) Combined with the fact that {{IPA|/n/}} and {{IPA|/m/}} are already disallowed at the end of syllables in Portuguese (being replaced with nasalization on the previous vowel), this makes BP have a phonology that strongly favors open syllables, as in Japanese.
{{cl|politics stubs}} is another large and murky type, but this looks like a viable subcat. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:Do you have a good template name in mind? [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 01:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Nasalization is much stronger in BP than EP. This is especially noticeable in vowels before {{IPA|/n/}} or {{IPA|/m/}} followed by a vowel, which are pronounced in BP with nasalization as strong as in phonemically nasalized vowels, while in EP they are nearly without nasalization. For the same reason, open vowels (which are disallowed under nasalization in Portuguese in general) cannot occur before {{IPA|/n/}} or {{IPA|/m/}} in BP, but can in EP. This sometimes affects the spelling of words. For example, EP, ''harmónico'' "harmonic" {{IPA|[ɐɾˈmɔniku]}} is BP ''harmônico'' {{IPA|[aɦˈmõniku]}}. It also can affect verbal paradigms—for example, EP distinguishes ''falamos'' "we speak" {{IPA|[fɐˈlɐmuʃ]}} from 'falámos' {{IPA|[fɐˈlamuʃ]}} "we spoke", but BP has ''falamos'' {{IPA|[faˈlɐ̃mus]}} for both.
 
::I'd suggest paralleling geo-term-stub and the like, and making it {{tl|poli-term-stub}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 02:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
Related to this is the difference in pronunciation of the consonant written ''nh''. This is {{IPA|[ɲ]}} in EP but {{IPA|[̃j̃]}} in BP, a nasalized {{IPA|/j/}}, which nasalizes the preceding vowel {{Fact|date=February 2007}}.
 
==={{cl|qualification stubs}}===
BP did not participate in many sound changes that later affected EP, particularly in the realm of consonants. In BP, {{IPA|/b/}}, {{IPA|/d/}}, and {{IPA|/g/}} are stops in all positions, while they are weakened to fricatives {{IPA|[β]}}, {{IPA|[ð]}} and {{IPA|[ɣ]}} in EP, as in Spanish. Many dialects of BP maintain syllable-final {{IPA|[s]}} and {{IPA|[z]}} as such, while EP consistently converts them to {{IPA|[ʃ]}} and {{IPA|[ʒ]}}. (Whether such a change happens in BP is highly dialect-specific. Rio de Janeiro is particularly known for such a pronunciation; São Paulo is particular known for ''not'' having it. Elsewhere, such as in the Northeast, it is more likely to happen before a consonant than word-finally, and varies from region to region or even from speaker to speaker.
The {{cl|education stubs}} are long-standing oversized, and the corresponding permcats hurt my eyes and brain. But this looks a clear-cut case: 70 of these. I wonder if we shouldn't also consider an {{tl|edu-bio-stub}}; the number don't look tremendous, but it'd also be a parent to existing cats (some of which I can't help but wonder if there's over-sorting to). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' both per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 16:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|Federalist Paper stubs}}===
Another change in EP that does not occur in BP is the lowering of /e/ to {{IPA|[ɐ]}} before palatal sounds ({{IPA|[ʃ]}}, {{IPA|[ʒ]}}, {{IPA|[ɲ]}} {{IPA|[ʎ]}} and {{IPA|[j]}}) and in the diphthong ''em'' {{IPA|/ẽĩ/}}, which merges with the diphthong ''ãe'' {{IPA|/ɐ̃ĩ/}} in EP but not BP.
{{cl|United States government stubs}} is oversized, this would take care of it for the time being: there's 69 of these. Alternatively, could broaden this out to {{cl|United States official document stubs}}, of which there'd be 82 (including the above, which is a subcat). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
:Except that strictly speaking the Federalist papers, for all that they are used to interpret the founders' intent with respect to the Constitution, they aren't official. Indeed they're a subcat of a different cat, ''United States '''historical''' documents''. Given the brevity of these papers (after all, each was in origin a newspaper editorial) I'm hard-pressed to see where a lot of these will ever be more than short articles serving as a bridge between articles on Supreme Court cases that cited them and the relevant Wikisource entry. That said I could live with a {{cl|United States Constitution stubs}}. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 03:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
::That's not the subcatting route I'm referring to (since it's not in the government subtree), but rather, {{cl|Federalist Papers}} being in {{cl|United States Constitution}}, which is indeed in {{cl|Official documents of the United States}}. Some Chinese whispers at work, perhaps. By permcat, {{cl|United States Constitution stubs}} would contain the 69 Federalist Papers, and exactly one other. (Usual undercatting caveats.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Its a case where A being a subcat of B and B a subcat of C both make sense despite A not being a subcat of C in any way shape or form. That happens with cats. Since there won't ever be any more Federalist papers written, I'm dubious about a stub type for them. It probably would be more profitable to go with {{tl|US-federal-gov-stub}} / {{cl|United States Government stubs}} (note the capitalization of Government) with parent {{cl|Government of the United States}} and move the existing {{tl|US-gov-stub}} / {{cl|United States government stubs}} up in parentage to {{cl|Government in the United States}} as there are a number of State and local government stubs in United States government stubs that strictly speaking shouldn't be under the current scope. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 04:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
::::That's what I meant by the "Chinese whispers" effect, and yes, it happens with cats: an annoying amount. I agree that the FPs aren't the most obvious stub cat scope, but if these are "permastubs", at least they're not cluttering up the parents, and if they do get expanded, they can be upmerged. However, I'd certainly also be in favour of splitting up these on fed/state/local grounds, whether with one, two or three such local categories. It also looks to me that {{cl|United States state government stubs}} would be viable, with 74 articles at the most conservative estimates. (i.e. current US-govs in the immediate subcats of {{cl|State governments of the United States}}). I'd also agree with your re-parenting suggestion (what an entirely inobvious and opaque distinction in category names!). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|Radio Presenter stubs}}===
An interesting change that is in the process of spreading in BP, probably originating in the Northeast, is the insertion of {{IPA|[j]}} after stressed vowels before {{IPA|/s/}} at the end of a syllable. This began in the context of {{IPA|/a/}}—for example, ''mas'' "but" is now pronounced {{IPA|[majs]}} in most of Brazil, making it [[homophonous]] with ''mais'' "more". The change is spreading to other vowels, however, and at least in the Northeast the normal pronunciations of ''voz'' "voice" and ''Jesus'' are {{IPA|[vojs]}} and {{IPA|[ʒeˈzujs]}}. Similarly, ''três'' "three" becomes {{IPA|[tɾejs]}}, making it rhyme with ''seis'' "six" {{IPA|[sejs]}}; this may explain the common Brazilian replacement of ''seis'' with ''meia'' (literally "half", as in "half a dozen") when spelling out phone numbers.
{{unsigned|124.180.204.52}}
 
==Old business==
==BP/EP differences in the informal spoken language==
<!-- END OF COMMENT PHASE -->
There are various differences between [[European Portuguese]] and Brazilian Portuguese, such as the dropping of the [[grammatical person|second person]] in everyday usage and the use of subject pronouns (ele, ela, eles, elas) as direct objects. Portuguese people can understand Brazilian Portuguese well. However, some Brazilians find [[European Portuguese]] difficult to understand at first. This is mainly due to the fact European Portuguese tends to compress words to a greater extent than in Brazil -- for example, tending to drop unstressed /e/ -- and to introduce greater allophonic modifications of various sounds. For similar reasons, Portuguese speakers in general usually find it easier to understand Spanish than the reverse.
<div class="boilerplate metadata" id="Old Business" style="background-color: #FFFFCC; border: 1px solid #663300; margin: 0.5em; padding: 0.5em;">Everything from here on down has passed the five day proposal period. Unless discussion to determine consensus is actively on-going, proposals may be acted upon, to be created, or noted as not approved. Move this marker up as time passes.</div>
 
==={{cl|Australian sport stubs}}===
<!--===Phonology===
Australia stubs are oversized, this looks like the most coherent group to split out, with 58 in the {{cl|sport in Australia}} permcat tree. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
===Lexicon===-->
===Grammar===
Spoken Brazilian usage differs considerably from European usage in many aspects. Between Brazilian Portuguese, particularly in its most informal varieties, and European Portuguese, there can be considerable differences in grammar, as well. The most prominent ones concern the placement of clitic pronouns, and the use of subject pronouns as objects in the third person. Non-standard inflections are also common in colloquial Brazilian Portuguese.
 
===Fire Equiptment/Alarms stub===
{| class="wikitable"
{{sfp nocreate}}
!
{{unsigned|Thedjatclubrock}}
! European Portuguese
*See {{tl|firefighting-stub}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 19:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
! Brazilian Portuguese
|-
|rowspan=2| '''placement of''' <br> '''clitic pronouns'''
| ''Eu amo-te.''
"I love you."
| ''Eu te amo.''
Literally, "I you love".
|-
| ''Responde-me!''
"Answer me!"
| ''Me responde!''
Literally, "Me answer!"
|-
| '''use of personal''' <br> '''pronouns'''
| ''Eu vi-a.''
"I saw her."
| ''Eu vi ela.'' (colloquial)
Literally, "I saw she".
|-
| '''inflection of nouns,''' <br> '''adjectives and verbs'''
| ''As moças<sup>1</sup> voltaram ontem.''
"The girls came back yesterday."
| ''As moça voltou ontem.'' (very colloquial; wrong for many people)
Literally, "The [plural] girl came back [singular] yesterday".
|}
 
That is not it. I mean Sirens, Horns and commercial fire alarms. For ex see [[notifier]]{{unsigned|Thedjatclubrock}}
<small><sup>1</sup>Although the word ''moças'' is not often used in modern European Portuguese, the intent here is to compare the morphology.</small>
*[[Notifier]] is a company and would be sorted under some type of company stub. Under {{cl|Fire detection and alarm}} there are only 14 articles; if I go up the hierarchy I only see maybe twice that number under the whole umbrella of {{cl|Fire protection}} and its sub-cats. If there is an associated WikiProject, 30+ stubs is the lowest number at which a stub template is considered; if not, 60+. Until those numbers can be reached I see no need for anything more specific than {{tl|firefighting-stub}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 04:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
{{sfd bottom}}
 
==={{cl|telecommunications term stubs}}===
The examples in the table are in increasing degree of informality. The word order in the first Brazilian example is actually frequent in European Portuguese, too, for example in subordinate clauses like ''Sabes '''que eu te amo''''' (You know ''that I love you''), but not in simple sentences like "I love you." But in Portugal an object pronoun would never be placed at the start of a sentence, like in the second example. The example in the bottom row of the table, with its deletion of "redundant" inflections, would be considered ungrammatical by most educated urban middle-class speakers of BP, but it is nonetheless widely heard in Brazil, especially in certain regional dialects like [[caipira]] and [[mineiro]].
Oversized parent, 54 of these on the basis of catting; shouldn't be hard to find a few more. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 06:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|Russian scientist stubs}}===
====Personal pronouns====
Surprised we don't have this one already. At any rate, parent is now Officially Big, 141 permcat-based possibilities for this. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
{{main|Portuguese pronouns}}
=====Third-person direct object pronouns=====
In spoken informal registers of BP, the third-person object pronouns 'o', 'a', 'os' and 'as', common in EP, are virtually nonexistent -- they are simply left out, or (when necessary, and usually only when referring to people) replaced by stressed subject pronouns (e.g., ''ele'' "he" or ''isso'' "that"); for example, ''Eu vi ele'' "I saw him" rather than ''Eu o vi''.
 
==={{cl|Greater Vancouver Regional District geography stubs}}===
=====''Tu'' and ''você''=====
BC-geo-stubs are oversized, splitting by regional district seems the obvious thing to do. 40 on the basis of just double-stubbing. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|television documentary stubs}}===
In most dialects of BP, 'você' (formal "you" in EP) replaces ''tu'' (informal "you" in EP). (Thus, there is no formal/informal distinction such as exists in most European languages.) The object pronoun, however, is still ''te'' {{IPA|[tʃi]}}, and other forms such as ''teu'' (possessive), ''ti'' (post-prepositional) and ''contigo'' ("with you") may still remain in some regions of Brazil, especially when ''tu'' is still used. Hence, the combination of object ''te'' with subject ''você,'' for example, ''eu te disse para você ir'' "I told you that you should go". The imperative forms, however, look like the EP second-person forms, although it is argued by some that it is the third-person singular indicative which doubles as the imperative.
{{sfp top|hold off for now}}
Another reproposal: see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/February_2007#Cat:television_documentary_stubs|here]]. If people want to actually go ahead with the topic-based fishing expedition, I'll hold off; if not, this looks the only one that's ''remotely'' close to being viable on the basis of permcatting. (Sport is about 30, everything else way below.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
*I'll tackle this later in the week, after I wrestle US-tv-prog-stub to the ground. Thanks for the heads-up. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 18:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
**Have begun with {{tl|bio-documentary-stub}}; more to come. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 04:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Chinese scientist stubs}}===
The forms ''ti'' and ''contigo'' are replaced with ''você'' and ''com você.'' Either ''você'' (following the verb) or ''te'' (preceding the verb) can be used as object pronoun: Hence a speaker may end up saying "I love you" in two ways: ''Eu amo você'' and/or ''eu te amo.''
Touch and go at 58, but much needed, as the China-bios are still growing: almost at 1000. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|economics and finance book stubs}}===
In the South ([[Rio Grande do Sul]], [[Santa Catarina (state)|Santa Catarina]], parts of [[Paraná (state)|Paraná]]) and the cities of [[Santos (São Paulo)|Santos]] (in [[São Paulo (state)|São Paulo]]) and [[Recife]] (in [[Pernambuco]]), the distinction between semi-formal ''você'' and familiar ''tu'' is still maintained; object and possessive pronouns pattern likewise. In Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Catarina, for instance, ''você'' is almost never used in spoken language - ''o senhor/a senhora'' is employed whenever ''tu'' may sound too informal. In [[Rio de Janeiro]], parts of the Northeast (interior of some northeastern states and some speakers from the coast) and the North, both ''tu'' and ''você'' (and associated object and possessive pronouns) are used, with no difference. Most Brazilians who use ''tu,'' use it with the 3rd person verb: ''tu vai ao banco''). ''Tu'' accompanied by the second-person verb can still be found in Maranhão, Piauí and Santa Catarina, for instance, and in a few cities in Rio Grande do Sul near the border with Uruguay, with a slightly different pronunciation in some conjugations (''tu vieste'' pronounced ''tu viesse''), which also is present in Santa Catarina and Pernambuco.
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{{cl|Non-fiction book stubs}} are still oversized; {{cl|business books}}, {{cl|finance books}} and {{cl|economics books}} seem to disappear up their own fundaments in a category cycle, so pick your take for a suitable category name. Population of 72, by my count. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Works for me'''. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 03:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
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=====''Seu''{{cl|2000s andthriller ''Dele''==film stubs}}===
'00s drama films is oversized, this looks like the most promising possible new subcat... but only 43 are catted that way. Anyone think they can drag up another 17? (I could start with populating an upmerged template if that would help.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Standard BP tends to use the third-person possessive 'seu' to mean "your", and uses 'dele,' 'dela', 'deles', and 'delas' (literally "of him/her/them", and placed after the noun) as third-person possessive forms. In situations however where no ambiguity arises (especially in narrative texts), 'seu' may be used as well to mean 'his' or 'her'
(e.g. ''O candidato apresentou ontem o seu plano de governo para os próximos quatro anos'').
 
==={{cl|United States opera singer stubs}}===
It must be noted, though, that both forms ('seu' or 'dele(s) /dela(s)') are considered grammatically correct both in EP as well as in BP.
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Seems to be 60-odd of these. The opera singers aren't in urgent need of being split, but the US-singer-stubs are, and this would take care of a handful of them, at least. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|US-rail-stub}} subtypes===
====The imperative====
Oversized, here's two possibilities:
Classical Portuguese inflected the imperative according to the grammatical person of the subject (the being who is ordered to do the action). Thus one should use different inflections when that subject is treated as ''tu'' ("you", grammatical 2nd person) or ''você'' ("you", grammatical 3rd person):
*{{cl|Defunct United States railroad companies stubs}} 187
:''tu és burro, cal'''a''' a boca!''
or:
:''você é burro, cal'''e''' a boca!''
*{{cl|Class I United States railroad stubs}} 144
:"you are stupid, shut up!"
Anyone have a preference? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Currently, many dialects of BP have largely lost the 2nd person subjects, but the same dialects might still use the 2rd person imperative, even with ''você'':
: Can't we do the old split into 50 templates and upmerge to the 4 regions. Otherwise no preference (both?) [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:BP: ''você é burro, cal'''e''' a boca!'' OR
::Trouble with that is there'll be a lot of multi-stubbing, as most railroads seem to cover more than one state, and in some cases a large number of states. I'll see if I can get some numbers of that, though... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
:BP: ''você é burro, cal'''a''' a boca!'' (in this case, sometimes people join "cala" + "a" + "boca", resulting on ''você é burro, '''calaboca''''' on Brazilian Portuguese Informal Speech.)
:What about splitting out locomotives and/or trains? Would that reduce the burden any? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 10:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
::Hrm, not a bad plan... It's a little swamped in the numbers by the mass of railway operating companies, but if we smoosh together the contents of the {{cl|trains}} and {{cl|rolling stock}} (I'd have thought one would be a subcat of the other, but seemingly I'd have been wrong), there's around 80. It's a somewhat broad church, but at least it would separate them from the above. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
:::It would be especially useful to split out the paper railroads since I imagine that they are most likely to remain stubby and provide the worst inflation to the numbers. [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]] 16:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|2000s Japanese single stubs}}===
Moreover, BP speakers rarely use the subjunctive for the Negative Imperative; instead they will employ the Imperative inflexion. This never occurs in EP, except for some jocular contexts or when scolding or giving incisive orders to a child. Here are some examples:
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{{cl|2000s single stubs}} is oversized; we'd ideally want to split by genre, but isn't the Japanese music scene nigh unto a genre unto itself? There's 120 of these, at any rate. Only other obvious possibility seems to be #1 singles, which it strikes me is unlikely to be of much use, since it smooshes together #1s in ''completely different countries and charts'', which is pretty pointless for almost any editor I can think of. (The singles and songs need either more use of "genre" cats, or else for their by-artists cats to be put in genre categories, as the album-by-artist cats are.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
*As I understand things, the Japanese music scene is separate from that in the United States. I need a new stub category for an article on the A&M single "Reimy - Speed of Light" on which I am still gathering data (some awaiting translation from ja.Wikipedia.org). Recommend, as an alternate, '''Category:Japanese song stubs'''. - [[User:B.C.Schmerker|B.C.Schmerker]] 04:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
**{{cl|Japanese song stubs}} looks sensible (and likely to be over threshold) to me, too. It might require a certain amount of double-stubbing rather than splitting, though. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
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==={{cl|Latin America and the Caribbean singer stubs}}===
''Não faz nada, eu te ajudo!'' (Do not do anything, I'll help you <nowiki>[occurs mainly in spoken BP]</nowiki>).
{{cl|Singer stubs}} is large again, and the biggest unsplit countries by permcat are Brazil and Argentina, with Jamaica and the Dominican Republic in single-digit remainder. Before anyone protests that we split the Americas into "North" and "South"... well, why? That's not how the UN geoscheme works, and we really need to decide whether we're following it, or not. This would be smallish, but Mexico would be an existing subcat, plus there's probably significant undercounting. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 
* '''Oppose''', we already have {{tl|SouthAm-singer-stub}} which overlaps. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 19:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
''Não faças nada, eu ajudo-te!'' (same meaning <nowiki>[occurs mainly in EP. Compare also the placement of the pronoun ''te'']</nowiki>).
**Oh, I'd missed that, sorry. But that's a) an upmerged template, that doesn't seem to have immediate prospects of categorical viability with that scope, b) at a level that doesn't correspond to any permcat, and c) is at the ''third'' level of the UN geoscheme: which indicates to me that it's not the right way of tagging such articles, in any respect. The question remains, do we want to follow the UN geoscheme, or not? (At least in cultural and human geography matters: if this were a geological type, that'd be a different matter.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
*** {{tl|SouthAm-singer-stub}} does have ~50 incoming links, so taking count that not all country-specific permanent categories have been sorted yet, there is chance that remaining ~10 will come eventually. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 05:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===Arena Football===
Note that 3rd person subjunctive verb forms are nevertheless frequently used in Brazil, both as Negative and Positive Imperatives, in written signs and public announcements (e.g. ''Não jogue papel na grama''; ''Não fume'', ''Toque a descarga após usar a privada''), or in (printed, Internet, TV, or radio) advertising (e.g. ''Pague um e leve três'', ''Emagreça dez quilos dormindo''). The subjunctive form of the verb "ser" (''seja'') is also always used to form the Imperative, even in informal spoken language (e.g. ''Seja um bom menino''; ''não seja bobo, garoto!'').
I don't know if this counts as a proposal but, I would like to propose we do something with {{Tl|ArenaFootballLeague-stub}}. It was nominated for discussion a while back and was kept upmerged to {{Cl|American football stubs}}. Having looked at the what links here for the template and the discussion it appears that it is to be used on players. I propose this is upmerged to {{Cl|American football biography stubs}} or as it has over 30 articles and a wikiproject given its own category. I have to admit not knowing much about this sport so I don't know which would be best. If this needs posting elsewhere let me know and i will move it. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 15:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
*Own category is probably the best option. You could also create a separate -bio- template... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 
===US-tv-prog subcats by decade===
==Diglossia==
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{{POV-section}}
This has been lingering oversized for a while, and on the basis of categorisation, I see only one feasible axis to break it down further:
*{{cl|2000s United States television program stubs}} 193
*{{cl|1990s United States television program stubs}} 156
*{{cl|1980s United States television program stubs}} 104
*{{cl|1970s United States television program stubs}} 97
*{{cl|1960s United States television program stubs}} 69
*{{cl|1950s United States television program stubs}} 59
(Or alternatively "series" per the permcats, if that's a useful distinction.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
*Can we hold off a bit while I slog through and see how much re-sorting I can do? I think a lot of them can be re-sorted by genre, at which point maybe we can make genre-related sub-cats. Cheers, [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 18:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
**That's fine with me, let us know when you know more... BTW, there might be another db dump soonish, so if people want to add genre-based permcats, that might also help. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
***I've dug through about half of the {{tl|US-tv-prog-stub}} articles and found many double-stubbed along with the appropriate genre. I think nearly everything in that category can be re-stubbed by genre. Can you do that voodoo that you do so well, and check to see which genres could use splitting? (since the toolserver is still out of date...) I'm finding a lot of non-fiction tv shows, particularly sports and cooking shows, which might be big enough to split out. Or maybe news shows. Thanks for any help you can give me. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 22:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I see where I've gone wrong: was crunching from the wrong parent; there are by-genre cats, just not US-specific ones. My bad for missing that in the first instance, sorry.
*{{cl|Comedy_television_series}} 151
*{{cl|Non-fiction_television_series}} 139
*{{cl|Sitcoms}} 83
*{{cl|Drama_television_series}} 83
*{{cl|News_television_series}} 55
*{{cl|Children's_television_series}} 51
*{{cl|Comedy_television_series_stubs}} 47
*{{cl|Science_fiction_television_series}} 33
*{{cl|Drama_television_series_stubs}} 30
*{{cl|American_children's_television_series}} 27
*{{cl|American_comedy_television_series}} 26
*{{cl|Horror_television_series}} 26
*{{cl|Television_talk_shows}} 23
*{{cl|Game_shows}} 23
*{{cl|The_Outer_Limits_episodes}} 23
So it looks like comedy, non-fiction, drama, news and children's are pretty much gimmes (factoring in some modest degree of undercounting in the latter two cases). Comedy is possibly big enough to consider subcats, though that's not urgent. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
**Here's how these are ordered:
:*{{cl|Comedy_television_series}} 151
:**{{cl|American_comedy_television_series}} 26
:**{{cl|Comedy_television_series_stubs}} 47
:**{{cl|Sitcoms}} 83
:*{{cl|Non-fiction_television_series}} 139
:**{{cl|News_television_series}} 55
:**{{cl|Television_talk_shows}} 23
:**{{cl|Game_shows}} 23
:*{{cl|Drama_television_series}} 83
:**{{cl|Drama_television_series_stubs}} 30
:*{{cl|Children's_television_series}} 51
:**{{cl|American_children's_television_series}} 27
:*{{cl|Science_fiction_television_series}} 33
:*{{cl|Horror_television_series}} 26
:...so I propose a {{tl|news-tv-prog-stub}} and maybe a {{tl|sport-tv-prog-stub}}, although I don't see that in the list. Maybe upmerged {{tl|talk-tv-prog-stub}} and {{tl|game-tv-prog-stub}}. Any takers? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 05:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
::Me, for one. Sports isn't on the list because I once ''again'' didn't pick a general enough route: there's 46 under {{cl|sports television}}, though, so that sounds very plausible, too. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 13:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
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===Split of {{Cl|American football stubs}}===
According to some contemporary [[Brazil]]ian linguists (Bortoni, Kato, Mattos e Silva, Perini and most recently, with great impact, Bagno), Brazilian Portuguese may be a highly [[diglossia|diglossic language]]. This theory claims that there is an L-variant (termed "Brazilian Vernacular"), which would be the mother tongue of all Brazilians, and an H-variant (standard Brazilian Portuguese) acquired through schooling. L-variant represents a simplified form of the language (in terms of grammar, but not of phonetics) that could have evolved from [[16th century]] Portuguese, influenced by [[Amerindian]] (mostly [[Tupi Antigo|Tupi]]) and [[African languages]], while H-variant would be based on [[19th century]] European Portuguese (and very similar to Standard European Portuguese, with only minor differences in [[orthography|spelling]] and grammar usage). Mário A. Perini, a Brazilian linguist, even compares the depth of the differences between L- and H- variants of Brazilian Portuguese with those between Standard Spanish and Standard Portuguese. However, his proposal is still not widely accepted by neither grammarians nor academics,
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Over 600 articles and the entire first page is either drafts or seasons, don't think that we have enough for a drft-stub but certainly we have enough for a season stub I propose {{Cl|American football season stubs}} with the template called {{Tl|AmericanFootball-season-stub}} or {{Tl|Amfoot-season-stub}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 14:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:After a recount we do have enough for a {{Cl|American football draft stubs}} again fed by which ever is deemed more acceptable {{Tl|AmericanFootball-draft-stub}} or {{Tl|Amfoot-draft-stub}}
::The main template in the parent is {{tl|Americanfootball-stub}}, so these should follow suit. Strong support on the first, and milder support on the second, BTW. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
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===Usage{{tl|Producer-stub}}===
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I think there needs to be a producer stub, because right now I've noticed that a lot of producers are just listed under stub. I think it would make things a little more organized, if they had their own stub category. Also, from there you can get more specific, like tv-producer-stub or movie-producer-stub. It's just an idea. Anyone have any thoughts on this? [[User:Kc12286|kc12286]] 01:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''comment''' - We've already got {{tl|film-producer-stub}}, and {{tl|music-producer-stub}}.[[User:Crystallina|Crystallina]] 03:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
: I looked for it. I guess it's listed under films. Well in that case, maye adding a tv-producer-stub would be helpful. [[User:Kc12286|kc12286]] 04:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
*We have just created {{tl|US-tv-producer-stub}}; are there any other nationalities big enough to split? Or enough among the other nationalities to merit a general {{tl|tv-producer-stub}}? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
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==={{tl|Ancient-Euro-bio-stub}}===
From this point of view, the L-variant is the spoken form of Brazilian Portuguese, which should be avoided only in very formal speech (court interrogation, political debate) while the H-variant is the written form of Brazilian Portuguese, avoided only in informal writing (such as songs lyrics, love letters, intimate friends correspondence). Even language professors many times use the L-variant while explaining students the structure and usage of the H-variant; in essays, nevertheless, all students are expected to use H-variant.
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This one may need a little brainstorming from the WP:WSS regulars. During discussion with [[User: Apcbg]] about the unproposed discovery Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub, it occurred to me that a stub covering biographies of ancient Europeans not covered by the Roman or Greek stub types would probably be very useful and would almost certainly reach 60 stubs, with Thracians, Spartans, Celts, Teutons and the like. IIRC we recently had a similar call for an Etruscan-bio-stub, which this would also cover. It does face a couple of problems, however: defining "Ancient" and defining "Europe". Personally, I'd define Ancient as being the same as BC and would be lenient on Europe to include Phoenicians, Trojans and Carthaginians - none of whom could accuately be described as European. And if that was to be the coverage, it might need a better name ("Classical-bio-stub"?). Any thoughts? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:::[[Image:Zlatna maska teres-2.jpg|44px|]]That would be a satisfactory solution I believe. Just one suggestion: Could we please illustrate the new Ancient-Euro-bio-stub with the picture used in Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub? It's the golden mask of a Thracian king, and reputedly the Thracians upheld the earliest cultural tradition in Europe (including the abovementioned 'peri-European' peoples too); as you possibly know the world's oldest gold (dated 46th century BC) was found near [[Varna Necropolis|Varna]]. [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 12:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
While the L-variant may used in songs, movies, soap operas, sitcoms and other television shows, although, at times, the H-variant is used in historic films or soap operas to make the language used sound more ‘elegant’ and/or ‘archaic’. There is a claim that the H-variant used to be preferred when dubbing foreign films and series into Brazilian Portuguese {{Fact|date=February 2007}}, but nowadays the L-variant is preferred, although this seems to lack evidence. Movie subtitles normally use a mixture of L- and H-variants, but remain closer to the H-variant.
 
::Sounds reasonable - the only other thoughts I had were the statue of Boudicca in Westminster, UK, and the statue of the dying Gaul - neither of which would be easily recognisable at that size. Discussing the stub icon's a bit like putting the cart before the horse, though - I'd prefer to get the actual name and scope of the thing sorted out first! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Most literary works are written in the H-variant. There would have been attempts at writing in the L-variant (such as the masterpiece ''Macunaíma'', written by Brazilian modernist [[Mário de Andrade]] and ''Grande Sertão: Veredas'', by João [[Guimarães Rosa]]), but, presently, the L-variant is claimed to be used only in dialogue. Still, many contemporary writers like using the H-variant even in informal dialogue. This is also true of translated books, which never use the L-variant, only the H one. Childrens books seem to be more L-friendly, but, again, if they are translated from another language (''The Little Prince'', for instance) they will use the H-variant only.{{Fact|date=February 2007}}
 
:::I'm not an expert on stub-template names, but 'Ancient-Europe-bio-stub' seems better to me; with 'Ancient-Euro-bio-stub' one would expect to see an 'Ancient-Dollar-bio-stub' too :-) [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 08:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
===Prestige===
::Heh. "Euro-" is used as a standard for Europe-related stub templates. Perhaps it should be the full word, but it would require a hell of a lot of work to get them all changed over to Europe. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Just fine with me. [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 05:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
:::'''Support''' per nom and the image of the Thracian gold mask is fine. I presume the category name (when we have 60 stubs) will be {{cl|Ancient European people stubs}} ? [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] <sup>[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]</sup> 07:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
::::In the meantime, the 'Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub' seems to have been transformed by [[User:Amalas]] into 'Ancient-Thrace-stub' (displaying however the former text "Ancient Thracians biographical article"); subject closed or what? [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 19:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
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===Anime and manga -- do-over===
This theory also posits that the matter of diglossia in Brazil is further complicated by forces of political and cultural bias, though those are not clearly named. Language has been made, apparently, into a tool of social exclusion or social choice.
We've been around this one before, but hopefully we might get a bit more traction this time. Parent is of course enormous. I hope I'm on solid ground with at least the first one, as it was [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Archive_14#Mangaka_stub|already suggested]] at the corresponding WPJ (at which I'm about to drop a note about this). I wonder if a still broader {{cl|anime and manga biography stubs}} would also be handy.
#{{cl|Manga artist stubs}} 186
#{{cl|Anime OVA stubs}} 139
#{{cl|Anime film stubs}} 97
#{{cl|Science fiction anime stubs}} 144
#{{cl|Shōjo stubs}} 108
#{{cl|Mecha anime stubs}} 76
#{{cl|Fantasy anime stubs}} 71
As to the others, I'm easy either way on whether it makes more sense to split by medium, or by genre.
 
*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, '''Oppose''' all other as it give [[WP:ANIME]] too many stubs to juggle. Genre stubs are a particularly bad idea as most anime and manga belong to multiple genres and choosing the best stub won't be easy and a constant source of greif. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 19:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Mário A. Perini, a famous Brazilian linguist, has said:
:"There are two languages in Brazil. The one we write (and which is called "Portuguese"), and another one that we speak (which is so despised that there is not a name to call it). The latter is the mother tongue of Brazilians, the former has to be learned in school, and a majority of population does not manage to master it appropriately.... Personally, I do not object to us writing Portuguese, but I think it is important to make clear that Portuguese is (at least in Brazil) only a written language. Our mother tongue is not Portuguese, but Brazilian Vernacular. This is not a slogan, nor a political statement, it is simply recognition of a fact.... There are linguistic teams working hard in order to give the full description of the structure of the Vernacular. So, there are hopes, that within some years, we will have appropriate grammars of our mother tongue, the language that has been ignored, denied and despised for such a long time."
 
*I numbered them for easier reference. I support all but {{cl|Shōjo stubs}}. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="green">日本穣</font>]]<sup>[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">Talk</font>]] <font color="darkblue">to</font> [[WP:JA|Nihon]][[WP:MOS-JA|<font color="darkgreen">joe</font>]]</small></sup> 19:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
According to Milton M. Azevedo (Brazilian linguist):
:"The relationship between Vernacular Brazilian Portuguese and the formal prescriptive variety fulfills the basic conditions of Ferguson's definition [of diglossia]...[...] Considering the difficulty encountered by vernacular speakers to acquire the standard, an understanding of those relationships appears to have broad educational significance. The teaching of Portuguese has traditionally meant imparting a prescriptive formal standard based on a literary register (Cunha 1985: 24) that is often at variance with the language with which students are familiar. As in a diglossic situation, vernacular speakers must learn to read and write in a dialect they neither speak nor fully understand, a circumstance that may have a bearing on the high dropout rate in elementary schools..."
 
*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, as most manga artist articles are stubs. Glad you took it up, I never got around [[User:Ninja_neko/Mangaka_stubs|listing all eligible articles]] (there are so many!). Not sure about the other cats though, as this would mean you could apply multiple stub cats on one article (a mecha-sci fi-fantasy OVA for instance), it could get confusing. [[User:Ninja neko|Ninja neko]] 08:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
According to Bagno (1999) the two variants coexist and intermingle quite seamlessly, but their status is not clear-cut. Brazilian Vernacular is still frowned upon by most grammarians and language teachers, with only remarkably few linguists championing its cause. Some of this minority, of which Bagno is an example, appeal to their readers by their ideas that grammarians would be detractors of the termed Brazilian Vernacular, by naming it a "corrupt" form of the "pure" standard, an attitude which they classify as "linguistic prejudice". Their arguments include the postulate that the Vernacular form simplifies some of the intricacies of standard Portuguese (verbal conjugation, pronoun handling, plural forms, etc.).
**I imagine we'd (at most) want to do either the form/medium axis, or the genre axis, but not both. Since the "series" are in theory already split (that is, the type exists, but isn't significantly sorted to), and since it would presumably lead to less overlap, maybe the former makes more sense. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 12:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 
*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, As for OVA and films, I have opposed a stub type for anime-series before because its purpose is far outweighed by the maintenance needed to separate them from other anime/mange stub types. Basically all of what Farix said I agree with. --[[User:Squilibob|Squilibob]] 07:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Bagno accuses the prejudice against the vernacular in what he terms the "8 Myths":
 
**Given the ever-increasing size of the parent stub type, can someone explain to me exactly what "maintaining" of this the anime WPJ is doing at present? From a stub-sorting point of view, it's not acceptable for this just to grow endlessly, and I can't believe it's very useful for anyone else (supposedly) working on these, either, at least as regards the chances of these articles ever being "unstubbed". Is the project going to agree to ''any'' way of sorting the remainder of these? (Note "agree to", not "actually do".) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
# There is a striking uniformity in Brazilian Portuguese
::*'''Comment''': There are [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Anime and manga articles by quality statistics|1847 stub]] anime and manga articles. If you split OVAs and films off then that would removed only 236 of the 1847 still leaving over 1600 stubs left in the one category, ''but'' some OVAs have film adaptions and vice versa. And science fiction/mecha/fantasy would have even more overlap. --[[User:Squilibob|Squilibob]] 05:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
# Nearly all Brazilians speak very poor Portuguese while in Portugal people speak it very well
# Portuguese is extremely difficult
# People that have had poor education can't speak anything correctly
# In the state of Maranhão people speak a better Portuguese than elsewhere in Brazil
# We should speak as closely as possible to the written language
# The knowledge of Grammar is essential to the correct and proper use of a language
# To master Standard Portuguese is path to social promotion
 
:::*Well, for one thing you're using the wrong numbers: this has nothing to do with the "stub class articles", which would remain as-is. The overlap is actually pretty small: around 25 of the above. There's about 1200 A&M-stubs per se, and sorting 200 of them would be an excellent first step, in my book. Also bear in mind that these numbers are on the basis of existing categorisation, and are probably considerable underestimates (I'll compile a list of the A&M stubs with no other category, in the vague hopes someone might actually categorise them). If someone else has a better idea as to how to split these up I'm all ears, but if the project is just going to say "no" to everything... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
In opposition to the "myths", Bagno counters that:
*Alternatively, if the films and OVAs are especially apt to overlap (or not an especially interesting distinction for editorial purposes in the first place), we could have a combined "film and OVA stubs" category, which would at least serve to separate them out from wholly different media. Would that be a more attractive option? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 17:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
**We don't have any film stub types that use release format (i.e. direct to video); I think just {{tl|anime-film-stub}} would work for our current purposes -- if necessary. There are only 2 pages of {{cl|Anime films}}. Any OVA can be given the category of {{cl|Direct-to-video films}} as well. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 19:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
***I've gone ahead and done this, with an initial bot-population on as conservative a basis as I could manage. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==={{cl|fungal plant disease stubs}}, and such like===
# The uniformity of Brazilian Portuguese is just about what linguistics predicts for such a large country whose population has not generally been literate for centuries and which has experienced considerable foreign influence, that is, this uniformity is more apparent than real.
{{cl|Plant disease stubs}} is now huge: over 1300. The only trouble with a "fungal" subtype is that it look like ''it'' would be huge, too: hundreds of articles were double-stubbed with fungus-stub at the time of the last db dump a week ago, and there's been a lot more created since. Broadly speaking I'd imagine we'd want to split further by either taxonomy of the infective agent, or else by taxonomy of effected species. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
# Brazilians speak Standard Portuguese poorly because, in fact, they speak a language that is sufficiently different from SP so that the latter sounds almost "foreign" to them. In terms of comparison, it is easier for many Brazilians to understand someone from a Spanish-speaking South American country than someone from Portugal because the spoken varieties of Portuguese on either side of the Atlantic have diverged to point of nearly being mutually unintelligible.
# No language is difficult for those who speak it. Difficulty appears when two conditions are met: the standard language diverges from the vernacular and a speaker of the vernacular tries to learn the standard version. This divergence is the precise reason why spelling and grammar reforms happen every now and then.
# People with less education can speak the vernacular or often several varieties of the vernacular, and they speak it well. They might, however, have trouble in speaking SP, but this is due to lack of experience rather than to any inherent deficiency in their linguistic mastery.
# The people of Maranhão are not generally better than fellow Brazilians from other states in speaking SP, especially because that state is one of the poorest and has one of the lowest literacy rates.
# It is the written language that must reflect the spoken and not vice versa: it is not the tail that wags the dog.
# The knowledge of grammar is intuitive for those who speak their native languages. Problems arise when they begin to study the grammar of a foreign language.
# Rich and influential people themselves often do not follow the grammatical rules of SP. SP is mostly a jewel for powerless middle-class careers (journalists, teachers, writers, actors, etc.).
 
:I don't know what the solution is - perhaps I should stop creating all these stubs, and in fact, I'm pretty well done - I wanted to create stubs for all of the pathogens listed in the various disease lists. However, the issue is not really just restricted to 'stubs'. The 'Plant pathogens and diseases' category is now also very large. How could it be better organized? I noticed that the fungi category includes subcategories such as Ascomycetes and Basidiomycetes. Most of the plant disease stubs are for Ascomycetes, however, very few have so far been added to this category. If they were, the category would also be large. There also some subcategories for specific genera. I don't know if we want to start creating genera specific stubs (e.g Fusarium pathogen stub, ...) or crop specific stubs (Canola disease stub ..), although the taxonomic approach seems to be one that has been used for the organization of plant species - although I'm not sure if this is also reflected in the plant stubs.[[User:Somanypeople|Somanypeople]] 01:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Whether Bagno's points are valid or not is still open to debate (especially the solutions he recommends for the problems he identifies). Whereas some agree that he has captured the feelings of the Brazilians towards their own linguistic situation well, his book (''Linguistic Prejudice: What it Is, How To Do'') has been heavily criticized by some linguists and grammarians, due to his daring and unorthodox claims, sometimes even regarded as based on biased or unproven claims.
 
::That's really out of our brief. Perhaps the best solution would be for you to find whatever WikiProject is most involved with this subject and work out how to subdivide the main parent category - [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants]], or [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Biology]] perhaps, or maybe [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fungi]] or even [[[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Microbiology]]. That would make our job easier, too, since we can then divide the stub cats along whatever line the permcats are divided. If the stub category isn't going to grow much larger any time soon (and you did say you've more or less finished what you're doing), then we can hold off any split for a short while, at least. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
==Bibliography==
*Azevedo, Milton. 2005. "Portuguese. A linguistic introduction". Cambridge University Press.
*Azevedo, Milton; University of California. "Vernacular Features in Educated Speech in Brazilian Portuguese" http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/79117399329793384100080/p0000008.htm
*Bagno, Marcos. "Português ou Brasileiro? (Portuguese or Brazilian?)" http://paginas.terra.com.br/educacao/marcosbagno/
*Módolo, Marcelo. "As duas línguas do Brasil.(Two languages of Brazil)" Editora FAUUSP.
*Perini, Mário. 2002. "Modern Portuguese. A Reference Grammar." Yale University Press. New Haven.
 
::: Well as a member of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fungi]] I have been adding fungal plant diseases to their coverage but its quiet a small wikiproject. The majority of plant diseases are fungal, so the creation of a fungal plant disease catergory would, your correct, be huge. It may be best to divivde them by their hosts then. I suggest cereal disease stub, tree disease stub ect and I also suggest a general plant virus stub due to the number of viral family stub articles where all the members of that family are plant pathogens. Viruses also have a very large host range so it'd be harder to classify them that way. [[User:Million Moments|Million_Moments]] 11:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
== See also ==
* [[Portuguese dialects]]
* [[Portuguese phonology]]
* [[Portuguese grammar]]
* [[Portuguese pronouns]]
* [[Academia Brasileira de Letras]]
* [[:pt:wikt:Wikcionário:Versões da língua portuguesa/Tabela|List of word differences]], on the Portuguese [[Wiktionary]] (in Portuguese)
* [[Caipira]]
* [[Mineiro]]
* [[Manezês]]
* [[Spelling reforms of Portuguese]]
 
::On permcats (though as G. says, this isn't strictly on-topic for this page, but what the hey) I'd image one would want categorisation by both organism and by host. Say, cat:<taxon> or cat:<taxon> plant diseases, plus something along the lines of cat:diseases of <taxon> (or cat:<taxon> diseases). Whether one wants "intersection categories" between the two is a judgement call. Once those are in place, then it becomes just a matter of which of the two (or which combination) is the most useful for editors expanding them. BTW, notice also [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/June_2007#fungus_subtypes|this proposal]] to split up the fungi per se, which presumably will overlap a great deal with this. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
==External links==
*[http://www.brazilianportuguesepod.podomatic.com Brazilian Portuguese Podcast] - Audio Lessons
*[http://geocities.yahoo.com.br/helcio_domingues/index2.html Brazilian Portuguese Grammar] - Grammar specifically designed for English speakers
*[http://www.webbusca.com.br/english/translator/english_portuguese_translator.asp English/Portuguese and Portuguese/English Translator and Dictionary]
*[http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/79117399329793384100080/p0000008.htm Vernacular Features in Educated Speech in Brazilian Portuguese]
*[http://www.brazilian-portuguese.net/ Ubaldos Travels: Web-based Training for Brazilian Portuguese]
*[http://www.learn-portuguese-now.com/ Brazilian Portuguese Online]
*[http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/definition/BRAZILIAN+AND+EUROPEAN+PORTUGUESE Brazilian and European Portuguese]
*[http://www.sonia-portuguese.com/text/brazport.htm List of words which are different in Brazilian and European Portuguese]
 
===Split of {{tl|mil-stub}}===
[[Category:Portuguese dialects]]
{{sfp top|create by continent}}
Mil-stub is 5 pages and needs a split. {{tl|Asia-mil-stub}}, {{tl|Africa-mil-stub}}, {{tl|SouthAm-mil-stub}} would be a good beginning and could also be the parent cat's to the existing x-mil-stub. Also, a {{tl|country-mil-stub}} would be useful.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 21:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support''' the continent splits (plus, if deemed useful, simular for Oceania, CentralAm, Caribbean and MEast). Not so sure about the country-mil-stub, though - what would that be used for? If simply "Military of Foo"-type articles, wouldn't they be better simply given their respective continental-mil-stub? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
{{sfd bottom}}
 
==={{tl|pharmacology-stub}} subtypes===
[[de:Brasilianisches Portugiesisch]]
{{sfp create}}
[[es:Portugués brasileño]]
Bigger than ever, but categorisation seems to have improved, so the following all look to be plausible now:
[[hr:Brazilski portugalski jezik]]
*{{cl|monoclonal antibody stubs}} 153
[[ka:ბრაზილიური პორტუგალიური]]
*{{cl|antimicrobial stubs}} 119
[[nl:Braziliaans Portugees]]
*{{cl|analgesic stubs}} 74
[[pt:Português brasileiro]]
*{{cl|sedative stubs}} 70
[[fi:Brasilianportugali]]
*{{cl|anticonvulsant stubs}} 66
*{{cl|antihypertensive agent stubs}} 62
:'''Support'''. Monoclonal antibodies in particular would benefit from subsorting. I presume {{tl|antimicrobial-stub}} would apply to antifungals, antiparasitics etc. [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 21:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
{{sfd bottom}}
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