Talk:Quebec French and Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2007/June: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 17:57, 19 June 2007

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==Proposals, June 2007==

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{{IPA notice}}

==Rhotic==

Could someone confirm what rhotics are used in Quebec? Some previous contributor and I thought it was a uvular anyway, but according to [[Uvular_R#Québec]] this is false – they don't say what is ''true'' though. (¿) --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 04:05, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you create a stub type, please move its discussion to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive/June 2007|the June archive]], add it to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types|list of stub types]], and add it to the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/Archive|archive summary]].

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:I do think some dialect (at least in some social groups) have a rolled r /r\/, most noticeably in Montreal. It might have disappeared more or less, though. Personally, I've heard mostly uvular trills and uvular voiced fricatives. And I'm from Quebec city.--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 19:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

===NEW PROPOSALS===

<!--Please add any new proposals below here using the same header level-->

<br /><br />

::Thinking about it the /r\/ doesn't seem untrue, but I don't hear it that often (anymore, anyway). And I'm from Montreal. Considering [[User:Gilgamesh]] wasn't so positive after all, I understand that we agree on uvular trill/uvular v fric and I remove the "dubious". --[[User:132.204.183.87|132.204.183.87]] 15:33, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC) (unlogged [[User:Valmi]])

=== Personality & Preference Inventory===

:::I base part of my assumption on a song by Beau Dommage (Marie-Chantal):

<br />

::::"Tu dis qu't'aimes la manière

Can't find it and not sure how to put the info across as an NPOV. Will suggest stub. Can anyone help? <br />[[User:AVISSER|Cookie Monster]] 10:45, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Que j'ai d'rouler mes r

::::C'est frais, montréalais pis juste assez vulgaire"

:::Which is sung with audibly rolled r's. The song having been produced in the 70s, and from info gathered here and there, I assumed at least a "popular" pronounciation up to that point still had rolled r's. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 16:59, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

==={{tl|GB-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:Great Britain MP stubs (1701-1800)]] ===

::::That would be on a vynil, and mine are quite out of reach right now. ;-)

:''Moved from [[WP:SFD]] [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)''

'''Propose creation''' of new stub template, and associated category, plus renaming of another related stub category.<br />The existing {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} is designed for [[Members of Parliament]] for the [[Parliament of the United Kingdom]], which was only created in 1801 after the [[Acts of Union 1800]]. However, {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} is also being being used for members of the predecessor [[Parliament of Great Britain]] (1707-1800), members of which should be categorised separately.<br />The proposed structure can be summarised as:

::::I found some documentation about all varieties or R's found in Quebec though, and they indeed document an uvular trill [r] that was used in Montreal and Outaouais and has been fastly declining lately in favour of of [R] (among other things &ndash; they were actually documenting 12 different rhotics used in Quebec, I'll have to read that more carefully later and update the article). --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 17:54, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

* [[Parliament of Great Britain]] → [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain]] → {{tl|GB-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:Great Britain MP stubs (1701-1800)]]

* [[Parliament of the United Kingdom]] → [[:Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament]] → {{tl|UK-MP-stub}} / [[:Category:British MP stubs]] (should be renamed to [[:Category:United Kingdom MP stubs]])

--[[User:BrownHairedGirl|BrownHairedGirl]] <small>[[User_talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 21:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*How is this for numbers - are there currently 60+ stubs which could do with this? If not, certainly an upmerged template is a good option until such time as there are. I agree about the change in the name of the category if a split is warranted. Not entirely convinced by the name GB-MP-stub, but I can't think of a better one... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:40, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

== The third ê ==

*I don't have tools to allow an easy count, but I am currently running [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain]] through [[WP:AWB|AWB]] to split it into [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for English constituencies|English]], [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for Scottish constituencies|Scottish]] and [[:Category:Members of the Parliament of Great Britain for Welsh constituencies|Welsh]] sub-categories, and I reckon that there are well over a hundred stub articles for which {{tl|GB-MP-stub}} would be useful. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|BrownHairedGirl]] <small>[[User_talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 14:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

*New cat would get 108, though there's the complication that 25 would have to be double-stubbed, so this isn't exactly what you'd call a "clean split". Also bear in mind that there's existing subcats by a) party, and b) constituent nation, as well as c) currency. Given that this is somewhat in the spirit of the third axis, whose permcat was deleted ({{cl|Current British MP stubs}}, {{cl|current British MPs}}), I wonder if we shouldn't save ourselves some work by waiting until the permcats stop to-ing and fro-ing, and then come up with a consistent scheme. Oh, and if this does go ahead, I'd favour {{tl|Britain-MP-stub}} for the template. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

===Miscellaneous double-stubbing mashup===

French has a third phonemic "e" vowel, always, usually in words with orthographic <aî> or <ê>. It is also the rendering of all /e/ and /E/ before a final [r]. Minimal pairs include 'bête'("beast")/'bette'("beet") and 'maître'(master)/'mettre'(to put). I have had trouble putting a finger on it and used X-Sampa /E\/ (old IPA E), or and approximated /E_q/ to represent this vowel. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 19:15, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The following all have double-stubbings of more than 80, where one of the types is in the 600..800 range.

*{{cl|Pittsburgh geography stubs}} 81

*{{cl|New York City geography stubs}} 85

*{{cl|United Kingdom hospital stubs}} 80

*{{cl|American biologist stubs}} 75

*{{cl|Zimbabwean sculptor stubs}} 72

*{{cl|Canadian lacrosse biography stubs}} 68

*{{cl|Hungarian Olympic medalist stubs}} 69

*{{cl|Malaysian building and structure stubs}} 67

*{{cl|Australian poet stubs}} 65

*{{cl|United Kingdom publishing company stubs}} 65

Most of the parentages should be obvious; two that are less so are Hospital_stubs+United_Kingdom_medical_organisation_stubs and Asian_building_and_structure_stubs+Malaysia_geography_stubs (the latter perhaps being food for thought as to what -geo- stubs are actually used for, "on the ground".) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*Malaysia's been long overdue for its own struct stub template at least, and now a category seems a good move - and like similar struct stubs, its parents should be {{cl|Asian building and structure stubs}} and {{cl|Malaysia stubs}} (not {{cl|Malaysia geography stubs}}, since buildings aren't normally grouped in with geo-stubs). I'd be inclined to put the UK hospitals in {{cl|Hospital stubs}}, {{cl|United Kingdom medical organisation stubs}} ''and'' {{cl|United Kingdom building and structure stubs}}, since the articles are likely to be at least in part about the buildings themselves, much like with theatre stubs and museum stubs. Yes to all the others (72 Zimbabwean sculptor stubs? Whoda thought...?), though I'd ask whether the NYC and Pittsburgh geo-stubs are likely to affect the way the rest of the state-geo-stubs are likely to be split in future... will it make for problems with Penn and NYState later? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

**I forgot the ob. whoda thought?: thanks for correcting that omission. :) I shouldn't have said "parentage", I really meant "constituents of the double-stubbing" (though in most cases they're the same thing). I don't think splitting by city is going to be a problem; elsewhere we've split by county, but then we tend to end up upmerging them to μSAs, MSAs, CSAs, unofficial regions with articles defining their scope, or totally made up ones. Cities of significant size will invariably correspond to (the population centres of) *SAs, so they can just be made a subcat. (Chicago and Chicagoland are already done this way, for example.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

===US schools by state===

:Quebec French has, I mentionned it in the small paragraph I wrote about its phonology as /E:/ as opposite to /E/. I never heard [E_q] but I suppose that might very well exist. The most important point anyway is ''France French doesn't recognise this pair.'' --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 05:03, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*{{cl|Iowa school stubs}} 73

*{{cl|Nebraska school stubs}} 71

*{{cl|Alabama school stubs}} 69

*{{cl|Utah school stubs}} 65

*{{cl|South Carolina school stubs}} 64

Similar deal to below. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*third time '''Speedy''' support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Speedy support for the first four'''. I'm not happy with lumping the Carolinas together, though. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 00:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

**Hey, it's good enough for the NFL... That was a typo, fixed. (If one really had to lump the two, I think "Carolinas" would be more usual, though the USCB defines also smaller component regions of the South.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:22, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

***"Nothing could be finah than to be in Carolinah in the moooooooorning..." (and the song never says which one)...[[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 03:17, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

===US radio stations by state===

::¿What is /E\/ by the way? --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 05:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*{{cl|Pennsylvania radio station stubs}} 131

*{{cl|Florida radio station stubs}} 115

*{{cl|North Carolina radio station stubs}} 110

*{{cl|New York radio station stubs}} 92

*{{cl|South Carolina radio station stubs}} 84

*{{cl|Illinois radio station stubs}} 64

*{{cl|Indiana radio station stubs}} 60

*{{cl|Minnesota radio station stubs}} 59

All are currently populated from double-upmerged templates, so again I'm inclined to speedy these. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*Again '''Speedy''' Support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

===European actor subcats===

::: /E\/ is the X-Sampa symbol I use to represent the deprecated IPA E (Small capital e), which represented a lax /E/. My point was that there is a difference in quality (very audible to me) ''in addition'' to the difference in quantity. Neither distinction is made in Europe, AFAIK. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 16:54, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've been creating a number of upmerged stub templates for European actors, but two of them are now at exactly 60, so no longer need to be: {{tl|Denmark-actor-stub}} and {{tl|Spain-actor-stub}}. I propose to create cats fairly speedily. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Speedy''' support. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:35, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{Tl|Lithuania-footy-bio-stub}}===

::::Glad we agree on the fact that it doesn't exist (anymore) in Europe. I couldn't really hear the quality difference, or then I would have guessed perhaps that it's (xsampa) [E_+], but I just found a book where the phoneme itself is described as (xsampa) /3/ (open-mid central). [http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/f/fb/Vow-18a.wav {sample}] What do you think? I think it sounds weird. It would be quite important to agree on a notation for this phoneme though, since we agree it ''is'' a phoneme in Quebec French. By the way, huge shame on the Quebecer Robert for refusing to note it. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 18:07, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Upmerged template with over 60 articles. Suggest speedy create cat.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

*Agree with suggestion. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|geology stubs}} subcats===

== Maurician lect?? ==

*{{cl|tectonics stubs}} 107

*{{cl|geochronology stubs}} 122

*{{cl|volcanology stubs}} 63

Parent is oversized; these look to be viable, and not to overlap too much, if I'm understanding the category structure correctly. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

:Fully support split & willing to help populate as time permits. [[User:Vsmith|Vsmith]] 02:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

:Support; good idea. [[User:Avenue|Avenue]] 03:03, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

:Support - will sit nicely along glaciology-stub. With the usual caveat about volcanology (vulanology?) not being for actual volcanoes, of course. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 06:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

:Support. Makes sense to me with the assumption that all these stubs will be under the roof of Geology project. [[User:Solarapex|Solarapex]] 10:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

::They'll all be subcats of {{cl|geology stubs}}, and a project link or banner on the category page wouldn't seem amiss. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|dramatist and playwright stubs}}===

This entry should be deleted. I hear/have heard "cossin" and "la bus"(Decried all across the province) regularly in both Quebec and Montréal. "Patente" is a bit more common for "Gizmo", though. AFAIK, "cossin" means "a small undetermined thing, usually in numbers". --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 19:24, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I don't have an exact count for this (though I suspect it's close to threshold just from the UK), but surely we should have this given the two existing national D&P stub types. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 17:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|United Kingdom children's writer stubs}}===

:I spent my teenage years in Trois-Rivieres and I can tell you that, first, Montrealers underline a difference and second, that ''cossin'' is well known as a ''Mauricien'' expression. Now, it may have crossed to other places throughout the territory, like [[Boston English]] expressions in the rest of the american territory or [[British English]] expressions in the US and Australia, for example. But I believe it does not remove the legitimacy of the mention. I have also been met with surprise from Montrealers when I spoke of the ''la bus'' expression (I'll note that I do not use it) ;) and, among ''Trifluvians'', is is renown as a local term. Salutations. --[[User:Liberlogos|Liberlogos]] 05:31, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oversized parent, 64 of them are in the "children's writers" tree, and no other "by genre" cat. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 22:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|legal term stubs}}===

==A good read for all those contributing to this article==

At least 90 of them; parent is of course very oversized. Existing subcat {{cl|Latin legal stubs}} (should be "phrases"). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Electronic sports stubs}}===

http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/~flabelle/socio/normecajo.htm (on the Quebec French norm)

There is an [[Electronic sports]] category ({{cl|Electronic sports}}) but no stub. I think it would be a good idea to create one for a bunch of [[Electronic sports]] articles that may begin to arise as [[Electronic sports|esports]] hits national TV. One such is the [[Complexity Gaming]] article. [[User:Digx|Digx]] 08:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

:'''oppose''' need enough existing stub articles. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 04:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|United States media company stubs}}===

The rest of the site is also excellent:

Parent oversized -- indeed, just about double-oversized -- 91 in the corresponding permcat hierarchy. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

*Already listed with 3 or 4 others on the to do list . [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:21, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

**D'oh. Forgot to check for redlink-links... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

===Split of {{Tl|linebacker-stub}} and {{tl|runningback-stub}}===

http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/~flabelle/socio/ (on Sociolinguistics)

Both are over 700, propose split by decade of birth as per precedent set by other position splits. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 23:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

*Support this and below, per prodigious quantity of precedents (and all bot-populable, to boot). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

:*I'd be very grateful if someone could popoulate these by bot, my knowledge of that side of things is poor, I will go through and try to pick up anything the bot misses, otherwise it will be a long hard slog. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 11:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

===Split of {{Tl|England-footy-midfielder-stub}} and defendesr and strikers===

http://www.uqac.uquebec.ca/~flabelle/ (on Linguistics)

Different shaped ball same solution by decade of birth split Defender and Midifelders are over 700 and strikers are just shy of 600 (stitch in time) nb goalkeepers are way off at less than 300 and not worth splitting yet.[[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 23:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|military decoration stubs}}===

-- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 02:45, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This looks viable as a subcat of {{cl|order, decoration, and medal stubs}}, and more to the point will help get rid of a few from {{cl|military stubs}}, which despite some recent shrinkage is still oversized. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Seine-et-Marne geography stubs}}===

: It seems we are a 2 decades behind in the way we treat the subject. This article is comparing Quebec French to the French of France, making it a regionalism of this language, rather than considering it as a national variant of French (with regionalism all to itself) much in the same way we compare British English and American English. -- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 02:52, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The region cat {{cl|Île-de-France geography stubs}} is oversized now, so time to split into departments. Only this one is clearly over threshold at the moment, at 409 (cough). However, some others are close-ish Val-de-Marne, 49; Yvelines, 41; Seine-Saint-Denis, 40; Essonne, 39; and Val-d'Oise, 37. Paris is only at 32, but when one adds in the {{tl|Streets of Paris-stub}} (see /D), it's also rather close. I'll create templates for all of them, and then see what happens. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

:As I said at /D, I object to adding the streets to that section. Road-stubs aren't listed as geo-stubs for anywhere else, so why Paris? Far better to make a France-road-stub and category for it to upmerge to. As to Seine-et-Marne's category and the other templates, though, that sounds fine. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 03:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

::I don't especially care in this instance, since one the first one's done it'll be off my to-do list (hopefully for some considerable time), but as I said the previous time you made this objection, I don't see the expansion-oriented logic of lumping urban streets, and articles like [[Place du Colonel Fabien]], in with say [[A151 autoroute]] (not marked as a stub, but looks like one to me). Some common sense about when things "must" be sorted by type (as well as when they must not be) would be a plan. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

:I just don't see why France should be treated any differently to the UK, US, Australia, and Canada - in each of those cases, urban roads are not treated as geo-stubs, they quite logically get road-stub. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|political term stubs}}===

::Well, this article is about a dialect, right? and it doesn't make any linguistic difference whatsoever whether Quebec is a "region" or a "nation", or really even if it would be just one person that wouldn't change anything to the way the lect is to be described.

{{cl|politics stubs}} is another large and murky type, but this looks like a viable subcat. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:03, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:Do you have a good template name in mind? [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] ^{[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]} 01:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

::A variety of a language spoken in some specific geographic place is called a "dialect", I hope we agree on that. Quebec French is a dialect of French. ''France French is a dialect of French.''

::I'd suggest paralleling geo-term-stub and the like, and making it {{tl|poli-term-stub}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 02:39, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

:::No, this is not correct. Do not confuse dialect with accent. Britons, New Zealanders or Australians spending time in English-speaking Canada have no problems communicating because there's no such thing as a Canadian or Australian dialect; it's a case of different accents, not dialects. The difference between the French of France and Canada is somewhat greater, but do not confuse, misuse amd abuse the term 'dialect.' - User:82.68.46.46

==={{cl|qualification stubs}}===

::::Just to clearify the idea (or maybe confuse things more), see [[Dialect]], [[List of dialects of the English language]] and [[American English]]. The words ''variety'' and ''dialects'' are used interchangeably in theses articles. - [[User:Sepper|Sepper]] 18:25, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The {{cl|education stubs}} are long-standing oversized, and the corresponding permcats hurt my eyes and brain. But this looks a clear-cut case: 70 of these. I wonder if we shouldn't also consider an {{tl|edu-bio-stub}}; the number don't look tremendous, but it'd also be a parent to existing cats (some of which I can't help but wonder if there's over-sorting to). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support''' both per nom. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 16:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Federalist Paper stubs}}===

::Now, how do you want us to describe the Quebec French dialect? If we were trying to make a Quebec French dictionary or grammar to the use of Quebecers, then you would be right, it would be innapropriate to describe Quebec French based on France French. But now we're writing an article about Quebec French in an encyclopedia that already has an article about France French (considered as standard French). So why describe Quebec French independantly when 95% of the material will be redundent and we could describe it differencially?

{{cl|United States government stubs}} is oversized, this would take care of it for the time being: there's 69 of these. Alternatively, could broaden this out to {{cl|United States official document stubs}}, of which there'd be 82 (including the above, which is a subcat). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:Except that strictly speaking the Federalist papers, for all that they are used to interpret the founders' intent with respect to the Constitution, they aren't official. Indeed they're a subcat of a different cat, ''United States '''historical''' documents''. Given the brevity of these papers (after all, each was in origin a newspaper editorial) I'm hard-pressed to see where a lot of these will ever be more than short articles serving as a bridge between articles on Supreme Court cases that cited them and the relevant Wikisource entry. That said I could live with a {{cl|United States Constitution stubs}}. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 03:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

::That's not the subcatting route I'm referring to (since it's not in the government subtree), but rather, {{cl|Federalist Papers}} being in {{cl|United States Constitution}}, which is indeed in {{cl|Official documents of the United States}}. Some Chinese whispers at work, perhaps. By permcat, {{cl|United States Constitution stubs}} would contain the 69 Federalist Papers, and exactly one other. (Usual undercatting caveats.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Its a case where A being a subcat of B and B a subcat of C both make sense despite A not being a subcat of C in any way shape or form. That happens with cats. Since there won't ever be any more Federalist papers written, I'm dubious about a stub type for them. It probably would be more profitable to go with {{tl|US-federal-gov-stub}} / {{cl|United States Government stubs}} (note the capitalization of Government) with parent {{cl|Government of the United States}} and move the existing {{tl|US-gov-stub}} / {{cl|United States government stubs}} up in parentage to {{cl|Government in the United States}} as there are a number of State and local government stubs in United States government stubs that strictly speaking shouldn't be under the current scope. <span style="font-family:cursive">[[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]</span> [[User_talk:Caerwine|<small style="font-family:sans-serif;color:darkred">Caer’s whines</small>]] 04:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

::::That's what I meant by the "Chinese whispers" effect, and yes, it happens with cats: an annoying amount. I agree that the FPs aren't the most obvious stub cat scope, but if these are "permastubs", at least they're not cluttering up the parents, and if they do get expanded, they can be upmerged. However, I'd certainly also be in favour of splitting up these on fed/state/local grounds, whether with one, two or three such local categories. It also looks to me that {{cl|United States state government stubs}} would be viable, with 74 articles at the most conservative estimates. (i.e. current US-govs in the immediate subcats of {{cl|State governments of the United States}}). I'd also agree with your re-parenting suggestion (what an entirely inobvious and opaque distinction in category names!). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Radio Presenter stubs}}===

::If you want to make an article describing Quebec French on its own, just copy this old article to [[Differences between the French and Quebecer dialects of French]] and go for it, but it will be a hard task as Quebec French short of its lexicon ''is not'' standard.

{{unsigned|124.180.204.52}}

==Old business==

::--[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 16:37, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

<!-- END OF COMMENT PHASE -->

<div class="boilerplate metadata" id="Old Business" style="background-color: #FFFFCC; border: 1px solid #663300; margin: 0.5em; padding: 0.5em;">Everything from here on down has passed the five day proposal period. Unless discussion to determine consensus is actively on-going, proposals may be acted upon, to be created, or noted as not approved. Move this marker up as time passes.</div>

==={{cl|Australian sport stubs}}===

==Refactoring==

Australia stubs are oversized, this looks like the most coherent group to split out, with 58 in the {{cl|sport in Australia}} permcat tree. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

===Fire Equiptment/Alarms stub===

No, I am not suggesting we duplicate all things in French language to here. That would not make sense. :-)

{{sfp nocreate}}

{{unsigned|Thedjatclubrock}}

*See {{tl|firefighting-stub}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 19:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

That is not it. I mean Sirens, Horns and commercial fire alarms. For ex see [[notifier]]{{unsigned|Thedjatclubrock}}

Quebec French and France French are two varieties of the same language. And yes, we are dealing with dialects, but more than that because we are dealing with normalized languages which are references by themselves. There is a France French norm to which regional dialects (marseille etc.) are compared to. There is also a separate Quebec French norm to which regional dialects (Gaspesie, Saguenay etc.) are compared to.

*[[Notifier]] is a company and would be sorted under some type of company stub. Under {{cl|Fire detection and alarm}} there are only 14 articles; if I go up the hierarchy I only see maybe twice that number under the whole umbrella of {{cl|Fire protection}} and its sub-cats. If there is an associated WikiProject, 30+ stubs is the lowest number at which a stub template is considered; if not, 60+. Until those numbers can be reached I see no need for anything more specific than {{tl|firefighting-stub}}. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 04:53, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{cl|telecommunications term stubs}}===

I am proposing that this article be refactored so as to cover more than what it currently covers. This could lead to a breaking down into other articles. Obviously, the differences between Quebec French and the French of France is going to be an important part of the subject, especially since it seems this is all that people are interesting in knowing! :-) Also popular are the regionalisms that exist inside Quebec. I think that introducing elements of sociolinguistics will help clarifiying a number of things and eliminate a number of generalizations and ''imprécisions'' currently in this article.

Oversized parent, 54 of these on the basis of catting; shouldn't be hard to find a few more. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 06:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Russian scientist stubs}}===

Also, nowhere does this article speak of the French that was spoken by the Quebec clergy, the one which was taught in Classical colleges until recently and of the important transformations in the French spoken since the education reforms of the 1960s. There is clearly an important rupture there. On top of that, I think we should cover the topic of the normalization of Quebec French that began in the 1960s and (probably in an article all to itself) of the [[Quebec debate over the quality of its spoken language]].

Surprised we don't have this one already. At any rate, parent is now Officially Big, 141 permcat-based possibilities for this. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|Greater Vancouver Regional District geography stubs}}===

What do you think?

BC-geo-stubs are oversized, splitting by regional district seems the obvious thing to do. 40 on the basis of just double-stubbing. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|television documentary stubs}}===

-- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 22:18, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{sfp top|hold off for now}}

Another reproposal: see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/February_2007#Cat:television_documentary_stubs|here]]. If people want to actually go ahead with the topic-based fishing expedition, I'll hold off; if not, this looks the only one that's ''remotely'' close to being viable on the basis of permcatting. (Sport is about 30, everything else way below.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

*I'll tackle this later in the week, after I wrestle US-tv-prog-stub to the ground. Thanks for the heads-up. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 18:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

**Have begun with {{tl|bio-documentary-stub}}; more to come. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 04:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{cl|Chinese scientist stubs}}===

:<s>I think we agree in the first place to define the lect itself differentially to the France French dialect? I agree with you to defining the Gaspésie and Saguenay dialects based on the Quebecer dialect, that makes much sense.</s> See further post.

Touch and go at 58, but much needed, as the China-bios are still growing: almost at 1000. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|economics and finance book stubs}}===

:As of major additions to be made to the article, I agree to most of your suggestions. Here is how I was already getting everything organised in my mind:

{{sfp create}}

{{cl|Non-fiction book stubs}} are still oversized; {{cl|business books}}, {{cl|finance books}} and {{cl|economics books}} seem to disappear up their own fundaments in a category cycle, so pick your take for a suitable category name. Population of 72, by my count. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:51, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Works for me'''. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 03:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{cl|2000s thriller film stubs}}===

:#New subtitle right after ''History,'' something like ''Normalisation,'' that would necessarily include information about the perception Quebecers have of their dialect. That would discuss both the ''linguistique'' and ''sociale'' norm as they are called in this article you wanted us to read. (I reckon this is where ''Quebec debate over the quality of its spoken language'' would belong.)

'00s drama films is oversized, this looks like the most promising possible new subcat... but only 43 are catted that way. Anyone think they can drag up another 17? (I could start with populating an upmerged template if that would help.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

:#Sociolectal information spread across the article. Whereas information about regional variants can be kept to a separate subtitle (that used to be ''Lects'' nonetheless), social variants should be inclded in the differential description itself, that is basically stating right away the context in which a "difference" is considered acceptable.

:#Obviously the subarticle about History of Quebec French requires serious work; this is where I reckon information about the clergy would belong.

==={{cl|United States opera singer stubs}}===

:By the way, what about creating a WikiProject for French dialects? --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 18:25, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{sfp create}}

Seems to be 60-odd of these. The opera singers aren't in urgent need of being split, but the US-singer-stubs are, and this would take care of a handful of them, at least. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{tl|US-rail-stub}} subtypes===

::: You're right. Most of what I was talking about would make sense under [[History of Quebec French]]. Right now, the equivalent article I started on fr.wikipedia.org is more complete. The best online source I found for this is here :

Oversized, here's two possibilities:

*{{cl|Defunct United States railroad companies stubs}} 187

or:

*{{cl|Class I United States railroad stubs}} 144

Anyone have a preference? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

: Can't we do the old split into 50 templates and upmerge to the 4 regions. Otherwise no preference (both?) [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 21:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::Trouble with that is there'll be a lot of multi-stubbing, as most railroads seem to cover more than one state, and in some cases a large number of states. I'll see if I can get some numbers of that, though... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

:What about splitting out locomotives and/or trains? Would that reduce the burden any? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 10:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

::Hrm, not a bad plan... It's a little swamped in the numbers by the mass of railway operating companies, but if we smoosh together the contents of the {{cl|trains}} and {{cl|rolling stock}} (I'd have thought one would be a subcat of the other, but seemingly I'd have been wrong), there's around 80. It's a somewhat broad church, but at least it would separate them from the above. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

:::It would be especially useful to split out the paper railroads since I imagine that they are most likely to remain stubby and provide the worst inflation to the numbers. [[User:Mangoe|Mangoe]] 16:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|2000s Japanese single stubs}}===

::: http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/francophonie/histfrnqc.htm

{{sfp create}}

{{cl|2000s single stubs}} is oversized; we'd ideally want to split by genre, but isn't the Japanese music scene nigh unto a genre unto itself? There's 120 of these, at any rate. Only other obvious possibility seems to be #1 singles, which it strikes me is unlikely to be of much use, since it smooshes together #1s in ''completely different countries and charts'', which is pretty pointless for almost any editor I can think of. (The singles and songs need either more use of "genre" cats, or else for their by-artists cats to be put in genre categories, as the album-by-artist cats are.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

*As I understand things, the Japanese music scene is separate from that in the United States. I need a new stub category for an article on the A&M single "Reimy - Speed of Light" on which I am still gathering data (some awaiting translation from ja.Wikipedia.org). Recommend, as an alternate, '''Category:Japanese song stubs'''. - [[User:B.C.Schmerker|B.C.Schmerker]] 04:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

**{{cl|Japanese song stubs}} looks sensible (and likely to be over threshold) to me, too. It might require a certain amount of double-stubbing rather than splitting, though. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{cl|Latin America and the Caribbean singer stubs}}===

::: Although not a primary source, it is very complete and up to date. What I wrote so far is evidently mostly taken from what I read there. :-) It has a political bias however. I am trying to make mine more objective, even if it means leaving out certain parts and even if I agree with most parts of this political bias. ;-)

{{cl|Singer stubs}} is large again, and the biggest unsplit countries by permcat are Brazil and Argentina, with Jamaica and the Dominican Republic in single-digit remainder. Before anyone protests that we split the Americas into "North" and "South"... well, why? That's not how the UN geoscheme works, and we really need to decide whether we're following it, or not. This would be smallish, but Mexico would be an existing subcat, plus there's probably significant undercounting. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

* '''Oppose''', we already have {{tl|SouthAm-singer-stub}} which overlaps. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 19:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::: Creating a WikiProject for French dialects seems like a good idea, although I am honestly not qualified to write much on the dialects of Acadia, Louisiana, Belgium, Switzerland etc. I guess I could start reading and learn. Meanwhile, you'll have to find more knowledgeable people than me. Do you know any good online sources on this subject?

**Oh, I'd missed that, sorry. But that's a) an upmerged template, that doesn't seem to have immediate prospects of categorical viability with that scope, b) at a level that doesn't correspond to any permcat, and c) is at the ''third'' level of the UN geoscheme: which indicates to me that it's not the right way of tagging such articles, in any respect. The question remains, do we want to follow the UN geoscheme, or not? (At least in cultural and human geography matters: if this were a geological type, that'd be a different matter.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:38, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

*** {{tl|SouthAm-singer-stub}} does have ~50 incoming links, so taking count that not all country-specific permanent categories have been sorted yet, there is chance that remaining ~10 will come eventually. [[User:Monni1995|Monni]] 05:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

===Arena Football===

:::-- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 19:18, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't know if this counts as a proposal but, I would like to propose we do something with {{Tl|ArenaFootballLeague-stub}}. It was nominated for discussion a while back and was kept upmerged to {{Cl|American football stubs}}. Having looked at the what links here for the template and the discussion it appears that it is to be used on players. I propose this is upmerged to {{Cl|American football biography stubs}} or as it has over 30 articles and a wikiproject given its own category. I have to admit not knowing much about this sport so I don't know which would be best. If this needs posting elsewhere let me know and i will move it. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 15:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

*Own category is probably the best option. You could also create a separate -bio- template... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

===US-tv-prog subcats by decade===

::::I just had a look at [[French language]] for the first time since I started working on Quebec French, and it made me reconsider some things. More when I'm done with Phonetics & phonology. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 21:40, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{sfp top|create as revised}}

This has been lingering oversized for a while, and on the basis of categorisation, I see only one feasible axis to break it down further:

*{{cl|2000s United States television program stubs}} 193

*{{cl|1990s United States television program stubs}} 156

*{{cl|1980s United States television program stubs}} 104

*{{cl|1970s United States television program stubs}} 97

*{{cl|1960s United States television program stubs}} 69

*{{cl|1950s United States television program stubs}} 59

(Or alternatively "series" per the permcats, if that's a useful distinction.) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

*Can we hold off a bit while I slog through and see how much re-sorting I can do? I think a lot of them can be re-sorted by genre, at which point maybe we can make genre-related sub-cats. Cheers, [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 18:15, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

**That's fine with me, let us know when you know more... BTW, there might be another db dump soonish, so if people want to add genre-based permcats, that might also help. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 18:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

***I've dug through about half of the {{tl|US-tv-prog-stub}} articles and found many double-stubbed along with the appropriate genre. I think nearly everything in that category can be re-stubbed by genre. Can you do that voodoo that you do so well, and check to see which genres could use splitting? (since the toolserver is still out of date...) I'm finding a lot of non-fiction tv shows, particularly sports and cooking shows, which might be big enough to split out. Or maybe news shows. Thanks for any help you can give me. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 22:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see where I've gone wrong: was crunching from the wrong parent; there are by-genre cats, just not US-specific ones. My bad for missing that in the first instance, sorry.

*{{cl|Comedy_television_series}} 151

*{{cl|Non-fiction_television_series}} 139

*{{cl|Sitcoms}} 83

*{{cl|Drama_television_series}} 83

*{{cl|News_television_series}} 55

*{{cl|Children's_television_series}} 51

*{{cl|Comedy_television_series_stubs}} 47

*{{cl|Science_fiction_television_series}} 33

*{{cl|Drama_television_series_stubs}} 30

*{{cl|American_children's_television_series}} 27

*{{cl|American_comedy_television_series}} 26

*{{cl|Horror_television_series}} 26

*{{cl|Television_talk_shows}} 23

*{{cl|Game_shows}} 23

*{{cl|The_Outer_Limits_episodes}} 23

So it looks like comedy, non-fiction, drama, news and children's are pretty much gimmes (factoring in some modest degree of undercounting in the latter two cases). Comedy is possibly big enough to consider subcats, though that's not urgent. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

**Here's how these are ordered:

:*{{cl|Comedy_television_series}} 151

:**{{cl|American_comedy_television_series}} 26

:**{{cl|Comedy_television_series_stubs}} 47

:**{{cl|Sitcoms}} 83

:*{{cl|Non-fiction_television_series}} 139

:**{{cl|News_television_series}} 55

:**{{cl|Television_talk_shows}} 23

:**{{cl|Game_shows}} 23

:*{{cl|Drama_television_series}} 83

:**{{cl|Drama_television_series_stubs}} 30

:*{{cl|Children's_television_series}} 51

:**{{cl|American_children's_television_series}} 27

:*{{cl|Science_fiction_television_series}} 33

:*{{cl|Horror_television_series}} 26

:...so I propose a {{tl|news-tv-prog-stub}} and maybe a {{tl|sport-tv-prog-stub}}, although I don't see that in the list. Maybe upmerged {{tl|talk-tv-prog-stub}} and {{tl|game-tv-prog-stub}}. Any takers? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 05:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

::Me, for one. Sports isn't on the list because I once ''again'' didn't pick a general enough route: there's 46 under {{cl|sports television}}, though, so that sounds very plausible, too. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 13:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

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===Split of {{Cl|American football stubs}}===

::::Yes, TLFQ @ ULaval are great as far as lexicology is concerned, they are the best source.

{{sfp create}}

Over 600 articles and the entire first page is either drafts or seasons, don't think that we have enough for a drft-stub but certainly we have enough for a season stub I propose {{Cl|American football season stubs}} with the template called {{Tl|AmericanFootball-season-stub}} or {{Tl|Amfoot-season-stub}}. [[User:Waacstats|Waacstats]] 14:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

:After a recount we do have enough for a {{Cl|American football draft stubs}} again fed by which ever is deemed more acceptable {{Tl|AmericanFootball-draft-stub}} or {{Tl|Amfoot-draft-stub}}

::The main template in the parent is {{tl|Americanfootball-stub}}, so these should follow suit. Strong support on the first, and milder support on the second, BTW. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{tl|Producer-stub}}===

::::As I have just written, I hadn't read [[French language]] for a long time, and hadn't noticed how incomplete it is. That makes me reconsider my position that Quebec French should absolutely be defined differentially, and I'm suddenly thinking we could take some extra freedom, finally.

{{sfp other}}

I think there needs to be a producer stub, because right now I've noticed that a lot of producers are just listed under stub. I think it would make things a little more organized, if they had their own stub category. Also, from there you can get more specific, like tv-producer-stub or movie-producer-stub. It's just an idea. Anyone have any thoughts on this? [[User:Kc12286|kc12286]] 01:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''comment''' - We've already got {{tl|film-producer-stub}}, and {{tl|music-producer-stub}}.[[User:Crystallina|Crystallina]] 03:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

: I looked for it. I guess it's listed under films. Well in that case, maye adding a tv-producer-stub would be helpful. [[User:Kc12286|kc12286]] 04:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

*We have just created {{tl|US-tv-producer-stub}}; are there any other nationalities big enough to split? Or enough among the other nationalities to merit a general {{tl|tv-producer-stub}}? [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

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==={{tl|Ancient-Euro-bio-stub}}===

::::I'll have to read more of that FL article though. After I ate. (I indented your signature too, hope you don't mind.)

{{sfp create}}

This one may need a little brainstorming from the WP:WSS regulars. During discussion with [[User: Apcbg]] about the unproposed discovery Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub, it occurred to me that a stub covering biographies of ancient Europeans not covered by the Roman or Greek stub types would probably be very useful and would almost certainly reach 60 stubs, with Thracians, Spartans, Celts, Teutons and the like. IIRC we recently had a similar call for an Etruscan-bio-stub, which this would also cover. It does face a couple of problems, however: defining "Ancient" and defining "Europe". Personally, I'd define Ancient as being the same as BC and would be lenient on Europe to include Phoenicians, Trojans and Carthaginians - none of whom could accuately be described as European. And if that was to be the coverage, it might need a better name ("Classical-bio-stub"?). Any thoughts? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 05:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

:::[[Image:Zlatna maska teres-2.jpg|44px|]]That would be a satisfactory solution I believe. Just one suggestion: Could we please illustrate the new Ancient-Euro-bio-stub with the picture used in Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub? It's the golden mask of a Thracian king, and reputedly the Thracians upheld the earliest cultural tradition in Europe (including the abovementioned 'peri-European' peoples too); as you possibly know the world's oldest gold (dated 46th century BC) was found near [[Varna Necropolis|Varna]]. [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 12:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::::--[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 22:32, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::Sounds reasonable - the only other thoughts I had were the statue of Boudicca in Westminster, UK, and the statue of the dying Gaul - neither of which would be easily recognisable at that size. Discussing the stub icon's a bit like putting the cart before the horse, though - I'd prefer to get the actual name and scope of the thing sorted out first! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

::::[[Wikipedia:WikiProject French dialects]] --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 00:29, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:::I'm not an expert on stub-template names, but 'Ancient-Europe-bio-stub' seems better to me; with 'Ancient-Euro-bio-stub' one would expect to see an 'Ancient-Dollar-bio-stub' too :-) [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 08:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

:::::: I think we should also create this projet on fr.wikipedia.org. This might attract more people than just on the English side. -- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 22:06, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::Heh. "Euro-" is used as a standard for Europe-related stub templates. Perhaps it should be the full word, but it would require a hell of a lot of work to get them all changed over to Europe. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Just fine with me. [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 05:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

:::'''Support''' per nom and the image of the Thracian gold mask is fine. I presume the category name (when we have 60 stubs) will be {{cl|Ancient European people stubs}} ? [[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] ^{[[User_talk:Valentinian|T]] / [[Special:Contributions/Valentinian|C]]} 07:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

::::In the meantime, the 'Ancient-Thrace-bio-stub' seems to have been transformed by [[User:Amalas]] into 'Ancient-Thrace-stub' (displaying however the former text "Ancient Thracians biographical article"); subject closed or what? [[User:Apcbg|Apcbg]] 19:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

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===Anime and manga -- do-over===

==Phonology & phonetics==

We've been around this one before, but hopefully we might get a bit more traction this time. Parent is of course enormous. I hope I'm on solid ground with at least the first one, as it was [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Anime_and_manga/Archive_14#Mangaka_stub|already suggested]] at the corresponding WPJ (at which I'm about to drop a note about this). I wonder if a still broader {{cl|anime and manga biography stubs}} would also be handy.

It is likely that I made mistakes in the big lot of stuff I wrote about Quebec phonetics today, please feel very very free to have a close look. Also, I worked with HTML entities, so some API may be ''totally'' wrong. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 22:18, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

#{{cl|Manga artist stubs}} 186

#{{cl|Anime OVA stubs}} 139

#{{cl|Anime film stubs}} 97

#{{cl|Science fiction anime stubs}} 144

#{{cl|Shōjo stubs}} 108

#{{cl|Mecha anime stubs}} 76

#{{cl|Fantasy anime stubs}} 71

As to the others, I'm easy either way on whether it makes more sense to split by medium, or by genre.

*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, '''Oppose''' all other as it give [[WP:ANIME]] too many stubs to juggle. Genre stubs are a particularly bad idea as most anime and manga belong to multiple genres and choosing the best stub won't be easy and a constant source of greif. --'''[[User:TheFarix|Farix]]''' ([[User talk:TheFarix|Talk]]) 19:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

: I honestly wouldn't be able to know without comparing what you wrote with a reference manual (which I don't have). I trust you on these things. I will focus on history for now since I already started. -- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 22:06, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*I numbered them for easier reference. I support all but {{cl|Shōjo stubs}}. ···[[User:Nihonjoe|<font color="green">日本穣</font>]]^{[[Help:Japanese|?]] · <small>[[User talk:Nihonjoe|<font color="blue">Talk</font>]] <font color="darkblue">to</font> [[WP:JA|Nihon]][[WP:MOS-JA|<font color="darkgreen">joe</font>]]</small>} 19:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

==morphologic gender==

*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, as most manga artist articles are stubs. Glad you took it up, I never got around [[User:Ninja_neko/Mangaka_stubs|listing all eligible articles]] (there are so many!). Not sure about the other cats though, as this would mean you could apply multiple stub cats on one article (a mecha-sci fi-fantasy OVA for instance), it could get confusing. [[User:Ninja neko|Ninja neko]] 08:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Seems good to me, however something other than "auto" will have to be used as an example as both "auto" and "automobile" are in fact feminine words... :-) Maybe "une avion" instead? That's the most common 5-year old type mistake most francophones do when they grow up. I know I did. ;-)

**I imagine we'd (at most) want to do either the form/medium axis, or the genre axis, but not both. Since the "series" are in theory already split (that is, the type exists, but isn't significantly sorted to), and since it would presumably lead to less overlap, maybe the former makes more sense. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 12:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support''' {{cl|Manga artist stubs}}, As for OVA and films, I have opposed a stub type for anime-series before because its purpose is far outweighed by the maintenance needed to separate them from other anime/mange stub types. Basically all of what Farix said I agree with. --[[User:Squilibob|Squilibob]] 07:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

-- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 12:17, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

**Given the ever-increasing size of the parent stub type, can someone explain to me exactly what "maintaining" of this the anime WPJ is doing at present? From a stub-sorting point of view, it's not acceptable for this just to grow endlessly, and I can't believe it's very useful for anyone else (supposedly) working on these, either, at least as regards the chances of these articles ever being "unstubbed". Is the project going to agree to ''any'' way of sorting the remainder of these? (Note "agree to", not "actually do".) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

:Yuk! I would say I was probably very tired when I wrote this little bit. ''Very tired.'' :-) --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 17:26, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::*'''Comment''': There are [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Anime and manga articles by quality statistics|1847 stub]] anime and manga articles. If you split OVAs and films off then that would removed only 236 of the 1847 still leaving over 1600 stubs left in the one category, ''but'' some OVAs have film adaptions and vice versa. And science fiction/mecha/fantasy would have even more overlap. --[[User:Squilibob|Squilibob]] 05:11, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

:::*Well, for one thing you're using the wrong numbers: this has nothing to do with the "stub class articles", which would remain as-is. The overlap is actually pretty small: around 25 of the above. There's about 1200 A&M-stubs per se, and sorting 200 of them would be an excellent first step, in my book. Also bear in mind that these numbers are on the basis of existing categorisation, and are probably considerable underestimates (I'll compile a list of the A&M stubs with no other category, in the vague hopes someone might actually categorise them). If someone else has a better idea as to how to split these up I'm all ears, but if the project is just going to say "no" to everything... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

::Is it possible that naming the bus routes by their feminine numbers be influenced through analogy by the same habits of naming highways? La 20, la 40 are only a short way to l'autobus 7 -> la 7.--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 12:22, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

*Alternatively, if the films and OVAs are especially apt to overlap (or not an especially interesting distinction for editorial purposes in the first place), we could have a combined "film and OVA stubs" category, which would at least serve to separate them out from wholly different media. Would that be a more attractive option? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 17:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

**We don't have any film stub types that use release format (i.e. direct to video); I think just {{tl|anime-film-stub}} would work for our current purposes -- if necessary. There are only 2 pages of {{cl|Anime films}}. Any OVA can be given the category of {{cl|Direct-to-video films}} as well. [[User:Pegship|Her Pegship]] <small><font color="green">[[User talk:Pegship| (tis herself)]]</font></small> 19:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

***I've gone ahead and done this, with an initial bot-population on as conservative a basis as I could manage. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

==={{cl|fungal plant disease stubs}}, and such like===

*points out* It seems to me like we don't necessarily need to "weaken" the article to make them identical. An important cause might also simply be the loss of nasalization before a pronounced nasal. I personnaly pronounce a distinct /y/. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 14:38, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

{{cl|Plant disease stubs}} is now huge: over 1300. The only trouble with a "fungal" subtype is that it look like ''it'' would be huge, too: hundreds of articles were double-stubbed with fungus-stub at the time of the last db dump a week ago, and there's been a lot more created since. Broadly speaking I'd imagine we'd want to split further by either taxonomy of the infective agent, or else by taxonomy of effected species. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 22:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

:I don't know what the solution is - perhaps I should stop creating all these stubs, and in fact, I'm pretty well done - I wanted to create stubs for all of the pathogens listed in the various disease lists. However, the issue is not really just restricted to 'stubs'. The 'Plant pathogens and diseases' category is now also very large. How could it be better organized? I noticed that the fungi category includes subcategories such as Ascomycetes and Basidiomycetes. Most of the plant disease stubs are for Ascomycetes, however, very few have so far been added to this category. If they were, the category would also be large. There also some subcategories for specific genera. I don't know if we want to start creating genera specific stubs (e.g Fusarium pathogen stub, ...) or crop specific stubs (Canola disease stub ..), although the taxonomic approach seems to be one that has been used for the organization of plant species - although I'm not sure if this is also reflected in the plant stubs.[[User:Somanypeople|Somanypeople]] 01:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

== Hypothetic infinitive ==

::That's really out of our brief. Perhaps the best solution would be for you to find whatever WikiProject is most involved with this subject and work out how to subdivide the main parent category - [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants]], or [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Biology]] perhaps, or maybe [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fungi]] or even [[[[Wikipedia:WikiProject Microbiology]]. That would make our job easier, too, since we can then divide the stub cats along whatever line the permcats are divided. If the stub category isn't going to grow much larger any time soon (and you did say you've more or less finished what you're doing), then we can hold off any split for a short while, at least. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 01:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time for an addition right now but someone should write something about the use of the hypothetical infinitive used instead of si+past subjunctive. Maybe to avoid use of the (wrong) conditionnal? Is the use of conditionnal in clauses starting with "si" widespread?

--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 18:51, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::: Well as a member of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Fungi]] I have been adding fungal plant diseases to their coverage but its quiet a small wikiproject. The majority of plant diseases are fungal, so the creation of a fungal plant disease catergory would, your correct, be huge. It may be best to divivde them by their hosts then. I suggest cereal disease stub, tree disease stub ect and I also suggest a general plant virus stub due to the number of viral family stub articles where all the members of that family are plant pathogens. Viruses also have a very large host range so it'd be harder to classify them that way. [[User:Million Moments|Million_Moments]] 11:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

:I can't understand what you mean by hypothetical infinitive, nor see any case where using si+past subjunctive is considered correct. Could you just show some examples?

::On permcats (though as G. says, this isn't strictly on-topic for this page, but what the hey) I'd image one would want categorisation by both organism and by host. Say, cat:<taxon> or cat:<taxon> plant diseases, plus something along the lines of cat:diseases of <taxon> (or cat:<taxon> diseases). Whether one wants "intersection categories" between the two is a judgement call. Once those are in place, then it becomes just a matter of which of the two (or which combination) is the most useful for editors expanding them. BTW, notice also [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Proposals/Archive/June_2007#fungus_subtypes|this proposal]] to split up the fungi per se, which presumably will overlap a great deal with this. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 14:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

:''Si'' + conditionnal is a rather frequent error, but it's not exactly widespread as most people are conscious of its agrammaticality. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 23:47, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

===Split of {{tl|mil-stub}}===

:: My bad, should be past indicative after "si", subjunctive is used after "que", ''mea culpa''. "Avoir de l'argent, je t'en prêterais", "Pouvoir t'aider, je le ferais" are good examples. Regular form would be "Si j'avais de l'argent, je t'en prêterais" etc. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 15:22, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{sfp top|create by continent}}

Mil-stub is 5 pages and needs a split. {{tl|Asia-mil-stub}}, {{tl|Africa-mil-stub}}, {{tl|SouthAm-mil-stub}} would be a good beginning and could also be the parent cat's to the existing x-mil-stub. Also, a {{tl|country-mil-stub}} would be useful.--[[User:Thomas.macmillan|Thomas.macmillan]] 21:29, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

*'''Support''' the continent splits (plus, if deemed useful, simular for Oceania, CentralAm, Caribbean and MEast). Not so sure about the country-mil-stub, though - what would that be used for? If simply "Military of Foo"-type articles, wouldn't they be better simply given their respective continental-mil-stub? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small><font color="#008822">[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?]]</font></small>'' 23:32, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

{{sfd bottom}}

==={{tl|pharmacology-stub}} subtypes===

:::Aow, yyyyes, that is a most interesting thing I had never reflected about. I would bet tis an archaic construction [I mean, in "standard" French], but shall try to find documentation about it. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 20:57, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

{{sfp create}}

Bigger than ever, but categorisation seems to have improved, so the following all look to be plausible now:

::::I've read it is a grammatical innovation specific to Quebec (as is the use of surcomposed tenses (Ce couteau, il a eu coupé.) in Swiss or southern european French)--[[User:199.202.104.120|199.202.104.120]] 21:14, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*{{cl|monoclonal antibody stubs}} 153

*{{cl|antimicrobial stubs}} 119

:::::Yes, I've quickly overread an article on the subject today, and that's what it seems like, although other languages have the same -- there was an example with Italian, but I cannot remember now. Anyway I added a (very) short paragraph on the subject. And I'm not sure whether ''embeddable'' is an appropriate translation for ''enchâssable.'' --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 20:32, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*{{cl|analgesic stubs}} 74

*{{cl|sedative stubs}} 70

:::It sounds like Yoda speech to me :) Vaguely reminiscent of "J'aurais de l'argent, je t'en prêterais" that you frequently hear in France. Or is that only in the past "Tu m'aurais appelé, je serais venu..."

*{{cl|anticonvulsant stubs}} 66

*{{cl|antihypertensive agent stubs}} 62

== Epenthesis ==

:'''Support'''. Monoclonal antibodies in particular would benefit from subsorting. I presume {{tl|antimicrobial-stub}} would apply to antifungals, antiparasitics etc. [[User:Fvasconcellos|Fvasconcellos]]<small>&nbsp;([[User talk:Fvasconcellos|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Fvasconcellos|c]])</small> 21:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

{{sfd bottom}}

I'm thinking more and more of adding a small section on epenthesises specific to Quebec such as the change of /Re/+stop into /aR/ (which I've heard extended to verbs like "rentrer"!)and /EksipRE/ from /EksprE/. Any remarks on it?--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 17:50, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:That would be very interesting indeed. As of /EksipRE/ though I doubt that is is specific to Quebec. Also I think this /a/ is more probably an open /@/. For instance, I would personally pronounce <rentre> [@_0Xa~t] (bad example I think), or <regarde> [@_0RgaRd]. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]] 18:15, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::I agree that most of the time, the added vowel is weak, bordering /@/ or /9/ (/6/ is not impossible, but that vowel sounds more like /E/ to me), it tends to strenghten in joual-type talks. I've seen "Quebec dictionnaries" include verbs starting in ar- (artourner, arparler, arvenir). Off course these were "hard-core" dictionnaries arguing that Quebecois is a separate language and using joual as a rhetoric tool, but the orthography is quite descriptive of some talking you'll hears.

::The same phenomenon often occurs with the article "le" in the same positions, albeit the vowel usually remains a schwa. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 20:49, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::This sort of epenthesis is also a feature of [[Norman language]] ( e.g. èrpâler, èrv'nîn, èrgarder) and [[Picard language]] (e.g. éd = de, él = le) so it is probably one of the [[langue d'oïl]] features inherited by the language of Quebec. There are more examples of 'èr-' prefix in [[Jèrriais]] article -- [[User:Man vyi|Man vyi]] 06:33, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

:::That is a possibility, albeit I'm not sure there were that much speakers from these regions amongst Quebec colonists. I'm not a linguist but my hunch is toward parallel evolution. THe oddest epenthesis you will often find in Quebec remains the addition of a parasitic "s" in verb ending in -ouer(louer) or -uer(puer), mostly at indicative present or imperfect tense (y lousent, vous pusez). Any other hearings of this one?--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 00:23, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

:::''loûser'' means ''louer'' (praise, worship) in Jèrriais; the mainland form is ''loser''. Can't help with ''pusez'' without research into neighbouring languages. On the colonist question, from our side of the Atlantic we tend to believe that similarities between our langues d'oïl and the language of Quebec is explained by the influence of oïl speakers. -- [[User:Man vyi|Man vyi]] 06:49, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

::::On a totally unscientific note, both ''louer'' and ''puer'' were derived in Latin from nouns with a nominative in S. I'm not saying it's related &ndash; but I'm probably meaning it. (By the way, never heard ''pusez.'') --[[User:Valmi|Valmi[[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]]]] 08:15, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

::::The ''louer'' I'm talking about is the "rent" one. IIRC, it has a different origin in latin. Will have to look into that. My sister will often say ''puser'', though she is no reference, I occasionnaly hear ''louser'' here at Cegep.--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 11:47, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

== Lenght opposition ==

I think it is relevant to mention that whenever the A/a, O/o and 3/E peirs occur they are opposed in both lenght and quality.--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 01:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:EG? --[[User:Valmi|Valmi[[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]]]] 02:57, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:: /pat/ & /pA:t/ (NOT /pAt/), /cOt/ & /co:t/ (NOT /cot/), /mEtr/ & /m3:tr/ (NOT /m3tr/). While short /A/ and /o/ do occur, they never do in contrasting position with /a/ and /O/ AFAIK and by such are not phonemes.--[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 13:48, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:::I see what you mean. I think the [A:] isn't specific to QF, but the difference in quantity of /o/ could be worth mentionning. At that, you could add a note about /ø/ and diphtongs. As of /3/, I don't think there is any kind of convention, so feel free to write /3:/ if you fancy since all allophones are long anyway. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi[[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]]]] 20:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

==Re: bus lines and highway numbers==

:Answering Circeus: ''Is it possible that naming the bus routes by their feminine numbers be influenced through analogy by the same habits of naming highways? La 20, la 40 are only a short way to l'autobus 7 -> la 7.''

I doubt your hypothesis, but I must honestly admit I shouldn't know how to prove it wrong. If only commuter train lines were numbered, we'd know if ''le train 4'' is ''le 4'' or ''la 4.'' I think it would be ''le 4'' though. ;-)

It seems to me that those metonymies follow quite a logical serie anyway: ''le numéro 42 ''->'' le 42, la route 132 ''->'' la 132, l'autobus 7...'' [?]

I would also like to provide a more formal counter-example from France, but the only one I can think of is in Queneau's ''Exercices de styles,'' which I cannot find now because I'm repainting and my flat is a real ''chantier de construction,'' and I'm not even sure whether it's ''l'autobus, l'omnibus'' or just ''le bus S.''

--[[User:Valmi|Valmi[[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]]]] 00:58, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

== Linking? ==

Could someone please clarify that Quebecois lacks most "linking"? Do they mean ''liason''? So does this mean that ''beaux-arts'' has a glottal stop in the middle instead of a voiced sibilant? Or what? Please be specific and use examples, I'm confused.

:: Ok it's clearer now but still not entirely clear. When one "avoids linking", one has a vowel clash. Is the clash resolved by blending the vowels, or by inserting a glottal stop? Someone who knows please answer...

::[[User:Steverapaport|Steverapaport]] 15:07, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:::or nothing. All solutions are possible AFAIK. That phenomenon is probably one of the most complex in French. I'll have to check my books when I get home. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 17:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

:::By inserting a glottal stop, I'd say... See [[fr:Liaison]] for a correct definition of the linking, and for the mandatory vs. optionnal cases of linking. In QF, optionnal cases are almost never observed. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]][[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]] 19:36, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Archiving ==

This talk page is extremely long. Maybe parts of it should be archived or deleted? --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 22:00, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Done. Moved old or irrelevant discussions to [[Talk:Quebec French(archives)]], and appropriate ones to [[Talk:History of Quebec French]] or [[Talk:Quebec French lexicon]]. ALso deleted a few bits. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 15:15, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== IPA completed ==

I completed the IPA-ification of the article. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 15:20, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== Reorganization and separation ==

I'd like to have opinions on the possible moving of the Phonology article to a separate one, much like [[Quebec_French_lexicon|Lexicon]]. Merging the subsections in [[Quebec Frenc#Regional variations|Regional variations]] should also be considered IMHO, until we have enough materials to actually separate them. --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 19:07, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== On the Quebec French norm ==

For those interested in the subject, there is currently a very interesting series of two articles by Marie-Éva de Villers (author of the ''Multidictionnaire de la langue française'') in ''[[Le Devoir]]''. The articles present the results of a study which tried to establish the real norm of Quebec French by comparing all the words used in newspaper articles published in ''Le Devoir'' and ''[[Le Monde]]'' for the year 1997. The second and last article was published today ([[January 5]], [[2005]]). Very interesting read. -- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 22:17, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

===On the Quebec french "ear" and "mouth"===

I'd love to note somewhere the obvious difference between the ___location in the mouth of Quebec French vs. France French, and the related difference in how a Quebecois hears foreign sounds. Unfortunately I'm not really qualified to do this in detail. All I know is that the foreign "th" sounds come out very different in the different French accents when speaking English:

<Table>

<tr><td>sound&nbsp;&nbsp;</td><td>English&nbsp;&nbsp;</td><td>Quebec&nbsp;&nbsp;</td><td>France&nbsp;&nbsp;</td></tr>

<tr><td>[&#952;]</td><td>"think"</td><td>"tink"</td><td>"sink"</td></tr>

<tr><td>[ð]</td><td>"this"</td><td>"dis"</td><td>"zis"</td></tr>

</Table>

Obviously the two languages are either differently placed in the mouth, or have a different "ear" for consonants, or both. Anyone understand the linguistic terminology here well enough to comment on this?

[[User:Steverapaport|Steverapaport]] 20:20, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

: While the fact has been widely aknowledged (I've seen numerous references to it), I have yet to see a suggested hypothesis. Maybe Quebecois are more exposed to [[slang|English slang]] /t, d/ for [&#952;, ð] than European French speakers? --[[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 20:42, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

::First, my qualifications to comment: I lived in Ottawa (near the Quebec border) for a year, and in Northern Quebec for a summer. I've also spent a bit of time in France and in other parts of Europe where I have had business dealings with Frenchmen. In English and in Parisian French, which I studied for 7 years.

::The difference is definitely not due to slang English influence, because in the remote parts of Quebec there isn't any to speak of. It is rather due to an entire way of speaking. To my ear the Quebecois speak a version of French that is spoken further back in the mouth -- their "R"s retreat almost to the uvula, the mouth is held further open, and the words alternate between sounding swallowed and sounding flat. The articulation points are further back on the tongue. There's also a bit of an adenoidal sound, as if the speaker has a cold.

::The Parisiens speak closer to the front of the mouth, with more closed mouth, and most of the articulation done near the tip of the tongue and lips. I'd love to say all this with authority but all I have is my own eyes and ears for this.

::I'm pretty sure that the difference in the "th" sounds is related to the different articulation points or the adenoidal thing, but I don't have much to back it up. But I'd love to hear from someone who does! [[User:Steverapaport|Steverapaport]] 23:37, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wow! This whole discussion is really interesting and important, so here's my (socio)linguistic grain of salt. As for the "mouth", in linguistics we call that "place of articulation"; "ear" would refer to "phonological framework". In order to understand "phonological framework", you can think of a matrix or a screen into which English-language sounds are categorized or slotted by FQ's. Naturally, the "sink"/"tink" versions of "think" show that Francophone Quebeckers have a different phonological framework in their heads than other Francophones do and vice versa. For example, Brazilians consistently pronounce "th" as f/v. Among FQ's, this difference exists despite spelling pronunciations, i.e. pronouncing what one sees; the proof of this is the "d" for voiced "th". A so-called "exposure" to English "slang" [sic] has nothing to do with this phenomenon among FQ's (or Francophone Ontarians, for that matter). The phenomenon is present particularly among unilingual francophones who have never been in contact with English, even before seeing written English or English borrowings.

However, there '''is''' someone who asserts that FQ's produce "sink" instead of "tink". She's an English instructor who was working at UQAM when I was there. I can't remember her name. Anyway, I have a hard time believing such an assertion because it's very clear that FQ's perceive both "th"'s as explosions, not vibrations. A study would use nonce words (made up, yet plausible-sounding English words); however, they would need to be read by an English speaker and repeated by the FQ.

As for what the FQ phonological framework consists of, there was an article written by Denis Dumas a few years back. I don't remember the exact title/date, though you should be able to find the info easily on line.

Btw, sorry for my laziness of not using IPA.

[[User:CJ Withers|CJ Withers]] 03:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

== Interintelligibility ==

In my own humble personal experience, as a French person:

* Fast, colloquial Québec French can be difficult or impossible to understand (e.g. [[Lynda Lemay]] when she gives her "Québécois lessons").

* In normal situations, while the Québecois accent is easily recognizable, there is no problem understanding Québécois speaking. [[User:David.Monniaux|David.Monniaux]] 18:31, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have a question. If the discussion page is not an appropriate page for the question, apologies. Could someone add a section to the page on the adoption of (American) English phrases in Quebec French? I live in Montreal and my French isn't good enough to tell whether this is true, but I was at a party several months ago where a number of academics from Belgium were making fun of the claim that Quebec French is "less English" and "more pure" than European French. They weren't being mean and they weren't suggesting that Quebec French is inferior. But they said, basically, if you're fluent in English it's much much easier to understand Quebec French due to the adoption of wholesale phrases from American English. Actually it's not just that. It's the use of verbs in ways that match their English counterparts. Examples: Ca fait du sense. Je sympathise avec toi.

The Belgians had a long and very funny list of these but I can't remember them. I think it is interesting from a linguistic viewpoint to look at what (in terms of language "purity") can be controlled by force of will and force of law. It seems that noun substitutions can be controlled to a point, but I'm wondering how Quebec, surrounded by, what, 250 million? anglophones can keep hold of a version of French that is less anglisized than European French. [[User:MySamoanAttorney|MySamoanAttorney]] 08:15, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:They can, and they do, precisely ''because'' they're surrounded by 310 million Anglophones. It leads to a siege atmosphere which allows them to do almost anything, including pass questionable laws (see [[Bill 101]]), to prevent the encroachment of English into their language. France has no such reason to worry about Spanish, German or English, so France borrows occasional words and constructions, and is none the worse for it.

:Bill 101 provided, for some time, that commercial signage MUST be in French. Lawmakers also concerned themselves with making up new French words to replace English borrowings like "hot dog" ''(chien chaud)''. Joni Mitchell said "You don't know what you've got till it's gone", but the Qu&eacute;becois have been determined since 1977 to make sure they keep it instead.

::Both Quebec French and European French have [[anglicism]]s, but different ones (there are many cases where Quebec French uses a French word while European French has borrowed an English word, and there are many other cases where Quebec French borrows an English word where European French uses a French word). Neither one is more "pure" than the other. The difference is that Quebec French has absorbed English vocabulary as a gradual process through 250 years of contact with English-speaking populations within Quebec, while European French with very few exceptions (''spleen'', ''clown'', etc) did not borrow much from English at all until very recent decades when it became faddish and fashionable to use English words as slang. -- [[User:Curps|Curps]] 23:32, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

:::Curps is correct too. In summary then, France has anglicisms from the late 20th century on, but few from before that. Quebec has anglicisms (and nativisms) from the 17th century until the late 20th century, and then they stopped (mostly) taking in more. [[User:Steverapaport|Steve Rapaport]] 12:30, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

French is my second language, and I have little difficulty understanding either Québécois or European French as long as it's not too fast or too full of colloquialisms, but this may be because I was taught by European French speakers while living near Quebec. Anyhow, that's not why I'm making this comment. I wanted to bring up two seemingly contradictory statements in the section about interintelligibility with other dialects. It says "'''European pronunciation is not at all difficult for Canadians to understand'''; only slang expressions present any problems". Then in the very next sentence it says "Television programmes and films from Quebec often must be subtitled for international audiences, which some Quebecers perceive as offensive, although '''they themselves sometimes can hardly understand European French pronunciation''' and slang." I don't feel I'm qualified to make a judgment on this issue, not being a native French speaker myself, but at least one of these sentences needs to be changed. &mdash; [[User:Livajo|&#1051;&#1080;&#1074;&#1072;&#1081;]] | [[User talk:Livajo|&#x263a;]] 21:56, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

: I think it would be fair to say that *standard* european pronunciation (as the one you would see on the french news) is perfectly understandable for most of us but slang (like parisian argot) isn't, not at all in some cases (a few movie characters seemed to be speaking a foreign language to my ear). Then of course there is the problem of regional accent which can be quite hard in both cases if they are particularly thick (saguenayen accent to a parisian or marseillais to a québecois.)--[[User:Marc pasquin|Marc pasquin]] 02:49, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

The accent of quebec may be hard to understand for someone who's not accustomed , like the accent from the south of France. It is just a question of practice. But the difference of southern french and québécois is that the metropolitans hear southern french quite often in films, ads, etc. and so we all can easily understand what they say, without subtitles. The subtitles when a québécois speaks in french television is for people who have never heard quebecois spoken before --[[User:80.11.154.154|80.11.154.154]] 17:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

== pronunciation samples ==

The section describing pronunciation is prety techincal. It would be extremely nice to have contrasting pronunciations of a word or two (perhaps petit). --[[User:Aarchiba|Andrew]] 03:52, May 18, 2005 (UTC)

: Very good also is a comparison between the pronunciations of the 7 days of the week. We hear Quebecers (often without them truly realizing it) pronounce lund'''zi''', mard'''zi''', mercred'''zi''', jeud'''zi''', vendred'''zi''', samed'''zi''' while the French (most of them at least) will not do the linking "zzz" sound between the "d" and the "i". (Sorry, I have no idea how to use IPA. You can fix my sentence if you want. :-) -- [[User:Mathieugp|Mathieugp]] 03:06, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

:: can`t help about the way to write it but this what is called "affricative". People from the gaspesie region seem to have a much milder case of it maybe due to the acadian influence.--[[User:Marc pasquin|Marc pasquin]] 00:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

:I wrote most of this section a long time ago, and I'll take the fact that almost nobody touched it since then--even though it seriously needs better vulgarisation--as the ultimate proof that it's impossible to understand. Myself, not being so immersed in the subject anymore (in fact I'm not even using the French language on a daily basis nowadays), I'm suddenly finding it very heavy.

:Whenever I have some time and energy for it, I'll totally rewrite it in a way that normal people can make some sense of without getting a headache. --[[User:Valmi|Valmi]][[User_talk:Valmi| &#10002;]] 05:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

== Oïl languages ==

It has been proposed that [[Languages of Oïl]] be renamed and moved to [[Langues d'Oïl]]. Comments and votes on [[Talk:Languages of Oïl]], please, if you're interested. [[User:Man vyi|Man vyi]] 09:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

== Iles-de-la-Madelaine french ==

First, I'm no linguist, and not an excellent english speaker (and writer). I'm a French-Canadian from montreal, and I worked for a long time on Québec's lower-north shore. The accent there is sometimes incredibly hard to understand, being a mix of Acadian (Shiac), Quebec and Iles-de-la-Madelaine (Madelinot) french. One caracteristic of the language, is they omit the letter "r" in all their words. Someone told me it's because when the english deported the Acadians, some of them moved to Iles-de-la-Madelaine, and rejected the King (le Roi)and the queen (la Reine)of France that abandonned them. To be sure that no one ever spoke of the Roi (and Reine)again, they deliberatly stopped using the letter R. Thats why it's easy to spot a Madelinot on mainland Quebec. He says: ''Déba'que'' instead of ''Débarque'', ''Pou'quoi'' instead of ''Pourquoi'' and so on. On some occasions, they use some kind of hard H, instead of R, like in ''h'gahde'' instead of ''Regarde''. Someone can confirm or infirm that story?

:The "r" drop, i.e. lack of rhoticity, is due to [[Acadian French]]. Most varieties of French in Canada fall into one of the two categories: Quebec or Acadian. Of course, there are some other ''[[slight]]'' differences, yet they should not necessary be considered justification for the "dialect" title. [[User:CJ Withers|CJ Withers]] 02:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

== Salut les gars, les filles! ==

Hey folks! I'm re-writing bits and pieces of the Quebec French article, both in English and in French. You'll notice that some information has been removed; I've transferred the stuff into my Sandbox on Quebec French. You see, I'm trying to retain the same content all the while re-organizing, streamlining and enhancing. So, there's no need to worry about the old data. If you want to help out, PLEASE DO! [[User:CJ Withers|CJ Withers]] 02:52, 15 April 2006 (UTC)