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{{User:MiszaBot/config
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== Old talk ==
|counter = 4
ibn khaldun komed from jemen,
|algo = old(5d)
averroes was a arab.
|archive = User talk:Royalguard11/Archive %(counter)d
the arab brought the civilation to north-afrika.
}}
the berber are old arabs.
{{User:Royalguard11/Nav}}
berberlanguage is a old arabic....
{{user new message|color=lightblue|bordercolor=green|name=royalguard11}}
{{AutoArchivingNotice|age=5|target=User talk:Royalguard11/Archive 3|dounreplied=yes|bot=MiszaBot III|botlink=User:MiszaBot/Archive requests}}
 
{{Wdefcon|prefix=User:Misza13/}}
(enough of counterfeiting)
{{Archive box|
*[[/Archive 1|January 2006-September 2006]]
*[[/Archive 2|October 2006-Jan 4/07]]
*[[/Archive 3|Jan4/07-March 21/07]]
*[[/Archive 4|March 21/07-]]}}
 
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if his origin was certain: why claim this arab-speaking ibn khaldun was a berber. ([http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:LqUI9eATFYYJ:www.al-asfoor.com/article13h.htm+%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%86+%D8%AE%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%8A+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B4%D9%8A%D8%B9%D8%A9&hl=ar ibn khaldun and sjietes]
why claim taha hsien ibn khaldun was a berber.
why claim mohamed chafik he was a berber...
 
== User Boxes... ==
for meer information see: http://www.tawalt.com/monthly/33_shafeeq_b.pdf for :mohamed chafik .[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 14:36, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
Dude, your user boxes rock! I put like, half of 'em in n=my page...
: If he's a Berber, why would he call himself "al-Hadrami"? Look at his first page: [http://www.alwaraq.com/index5.htm?c=http://www.alwaraq.com/cgi-bin/doccgi.exe/booksearch?book=116&option=1&offset=1&searchtext=CEE1CFE6E4&fkey=1&RangeOp=1&WordForm=1&totalpages=31&m=http://www.alwaraq.com/search.htm]. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 19:03, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[[User: Sophiakorichi]]
 
== what do you have against motorcycle racing? ==
:OK, I think pp. 559-560 of his Tarikh settle the argument once and for all:
 
why did you remove the apexzone article? are you a cripple and cant ride a bike?
::&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605;: &#1608;&#1610;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1573;&#1606; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1607;&#1608; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1610;&#1602;&#1591;&#1606; &#1571;&#1582;&#1610; &#1602;&#1581;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1571;&#1593;&#1604;&#1605;. &#1608;&#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1601;&#1610;&#1607;&#1605; &#1585;&#1610;&#1575;&#1587;&#1577; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1573;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;. &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585; &#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1581;&#1576;&#1577;&#1548; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1587;&#1585;&#1608;&#1602; &#1576;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1593;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1585;&#1576;&#1610;&#1593;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1575;&#1585;&#1579; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1608;&#1601; &#1576;&#1606; &#1587;&#1593;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1608;&#1601; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1583;&#1610; &#1576;&#1606; &#1588;&#1585;&#1581;&#1576;&#1610;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1585;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1605;&#1610;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1586;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1576;&#1606; &#1602;&#1583;&#1575;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1593;&#1580;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1604;&#1575;&#1576;&#1610; &#1576;&#1606; &#1602;&#1581;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606;. &#1608;&#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1602;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604;. &#1608;&#1587;&#1602;&#1591; &#1593;&#1606;&#1583;&#1607; &#1576;&#1610;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1608;&#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1587;&#1585;&#1608;&#1602; &#1571;&#1576; &#1575;&#1587;&#1605;&#1607; &#1587;&#1593;&#1583; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583;. [http://www.alwaraq.com/index2.htm?i=116&page=559]
::&#1579;&#1605; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605;: &#1608;&#1610;&#1584;&#1603;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606;&#1608; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1588;&#1576;&#1610;&#1604;&#1610;&#1608;&#1606; &#1601;&#1610;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: &#1573;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1605;&#1606; &#1608;&#1604;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1580;&#1576;&#1575;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1604;&#1602;&#1605;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1606;&#1584;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583;&#1548; &#1608;&#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1576;&#1602;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1606;&#1577; &#1608;&#1571;&#1588;&#1576;&#1610;&#1604;&#1610;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610;&#1606; &#1602;&#1578;&#1604;&#1607;&#1605;&#1575; &#1573;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1607;&#1610;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1575;&#1580; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1582;&#1605;&#1610; &#1594;&#1610;&#1604;&#1577;&#1611;&#1548; &#1608;&#1607;&#1605;&#1575; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1576;&#1603;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1576;&#1603;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1582;&#1604;&#1608;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1593;&#1585;&#1608;&#1601; &#1576;&#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1575;&#1582;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1585;&#1602;. &#1608;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1594;&#1610;&#1585;&#1607; &#1601;&#1610; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1608;&#1604;: &#1573;&#1606;&#1607; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585;&#1608; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606;. &#1608;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605; &#1601;&#1610; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1607;&#1575;&#1606;&#1610;&#1569; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1591;&#1575;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1603;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1593;&#1583; &#1610;&#1603;&#1585;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579; &#1576;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585;. &#1608;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1594;&#1610;&#1585;&#1607; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1582;&#1591;&#1575;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1607;&#1575;&#1606;&#1610;&#1569; &#1576;&#1606; &#1603;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1593;&#1583; &#1610;&#1603;&#1585;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579; &#1576;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604;. &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605;: &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1583;&#1601; &#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606;&#1610; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1583;&#1601; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1586;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1576;&#1606; &#1586;&#1610;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1603;&#1576;&#1585;. &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1608;&#1605;&#1606; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610; &#1608;&#1604;&#1575;&#1607; &#1585;&#1587;&#1608;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607; &#1608;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1581;&#1585;&#1610;&#1606;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1576;&#1603;&#1585; &#1608;&#1593;&#1605;&#1585; &#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583;&#1607; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1571;&#1606; &#1578;&#1608;&#1601;&#1610; &#1587;&#1606;&#1577; &#1573;&#1581;&#1583;&#1609; &#1608;&#1593;&#1588;&#1585;&#1610;&#1606;&#1548; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1604;&#1575;&#1569; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1605;&#1575;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1581;&#1604;&#1610;&#1601; &#1576;&#1606;&#1610; &#1571;&#1605;&#1610;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1588;&#1605;&#1587;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607; &#1605;&#1610;&#1605;&#1608;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1610; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1589;&#1583;&#1601;. &#1601;&#1610;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1605;&#1575;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1603;&#1576;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1585;&#1576;&#1610;&#1593;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1603;&#1576;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; 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::&#1608;&#1571;&#1605;&#1575; &#1580;&#1585;&#1607;&#1605; &#1601;&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1587;&#1593;&#1610;&#1583;: &#1573;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1571;&#1605;&#1578;&#1575;&#1606; &#1571;&#1605;&#1577; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1593;&#1607;&#1583; &#1593;&#1575;&#1583;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1605;&#1577; &#1605;&#1606; &#1608;&#1604;&#1583; &#1580;&#1585;&#1607;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1602;&#1581;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606;. &#1608;&#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1605;&#1604;&#1603; &#1610;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1576;&#1606; &#1602;&#1581;&#1591;&#1575;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606; &#1605;&#1604;&#1603; &#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607; &#1580;&#1585;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1580;&#1575;&#1586;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1605;&#1604;&#1603; &#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583;&#1607; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1610;&#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1585;&#1607;&#1605;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1580;&#1585;&#1588;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1610;&#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1604;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1605;&#1604;&#1603; &#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1593;&#1583;&#1607; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1585;&#1588;&#1605;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1606;&#1601;&#1610;&#1604;&#1577; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1606;. &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1587;&#1610;&#1581; &#1576;&#1606; &#1606;&#1601;&#1610;&#1604;&#1577; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1605;&#1590;&#1575;&#1590; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1587;&#1610;&#1581;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585;&#1608; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1590;&#1575;&#1590;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1590;&#1575;&#1590;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585;&#1608; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579;&#1548; &#1579;&#1605; &#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607; &#1576;&#1588;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1585;&#1579; &#1579;&#1605; &#1605;&#1590;&#1575;&#1590; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585;&#1608; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1590;&#1575;&#1590;. &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1608;&#1607;&#1584;&#1607; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1579;&#1575;&#1606;&#1610;&#1577; &#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1584;&#1610;&#1606; &#1576;&#1593;&#1579; &#1573;&#1604;&#1610;&#1607;&#1605; &#1573;&#1587;&#1605;&#1575;&#1593;&#1610;&#1604; &#1608;&#1578;&#1586;&#1608;&#1580; &#1601;&#1610;&#1607;&#1605;. [http://www.alwaraq.com/index5.htm?c=http://www.alwaraq.com/cgi-bin/doccgi.exe/booksearch?book=116&option=1&offset=1&searchtext=CEE1CFE6E4&fkey=1&RangeOp=1&WordForm=1&totalpages=31&m=http://www.alwaraq.com/search.htm]
 
apexzone is an organization of bikers who use underbone motorcycles.
Read this and tell me if he was Berber or not. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 19:20, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
of course the site is not finished yet because the other racers have not yet submitted their profile.
the apex racing team has won many races in philippines
 
i did read it. and i tell you that he was a berber. do yoy know that there an another hadramoet in tunise , now his name is ssoussa ? yes, you know that , but you think that we don't knouw that.[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 10:28, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
== ''Signpost'' updated for June 18th, 2007. ==
No. There is linguistically no way that the Latin "Hadrumetum" could have become Hadhramaut in Arabic - H disappeared from Latin long before the Arabs reached North Africa. If they had taken over the name, which as far as I know thye did not, it would have become &#1571;&#1583;&#1585;&#1608;&#1605;&#1610;&#1578;. If you claim that "Hadhramawt" has ever been used in Arabic to mean "Sousse", then prove it; show me one medieval source in Arabic calling Sousse Hadhramawt. Besides, didn't you notice the text is talking about [[Qahtan]], the mythical ancestor of the Arabs? And [[Murra]], which is still a big Yemeni tribe? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 23:12, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
{| width="90%" cellspacing="0" align="center" style="background-color:transparent;"
Oh - and Muhammad Chafik says he's "maghrebin", not that he's Berber: [www.mondeberbere.com/culture/ chafik/maghreb/substratberbere.PDF]. That would be because he wasn't Berber... - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 23:27, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
! [[Image:WikipediaSignpostHead.svg|center|500px|The Wikipedia Signpost]]<font style="position: relative; top: .3em; font-size: 250%;">'''Weekly Delivery'''</font>
 
|}
Do a little search in Ibn Khaldun for &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; at [http://www.alwaraq.com]. You'll get 27 pages, with plenty of things like:
<br>
&#1601;&#1603;&#1575;&#1606;&#1578; &#1605;&#1608;&#1575;&#1591;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1608;&#1604;&#1609; &#1576;&#1571;&#1581;&#1602;&#1575;&#1601; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1605;&#1604; &#1576;&#1610;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606; &#1608;&#1593;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1581;&#1585;
{| width="90%" cellspacing="0" align="center" style="background-color:transparent;"
 
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&#1593;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606;- &#1608;&#1607;&#1610; &#1605;&#1606; &#1605;&#1605;&#1575;&#1604;&#1603; &#1580;&#1586;&#1610;&#1585;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1578;&#1605;&#1604;&#1577; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1580;&#1575;&#1586; &#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1581;&#1585; &#1608;&#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578; &#1608;&#1593;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606;
| colspan=3 |
 
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If you're confused about what Ibn Khaldun means when he says Hadhramaut, read those 27 pages. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 05:00, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
|-
 
| align="left" | '''Volume 3, Issue 25''' || align ="center" | '''[[18 June]] [[2007]]''' || align="right" | '''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/About|About the Signpost]]'''
oeh , yes he was amaghribin he wasn't a berber. maghrib arab, same us i'm also arab. same us you are the only one who can understand mohamed chafik, same us are more learned then taha husayn. ibn khaldun was born in tunisie and he was not an arab. hij saied even that the most learned were not arabs. who can ibn khaldun the learned be an arab. see this :
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==Most of the scientists were no Arabs :==
----
Strange is that the scientists generally no Arabs were and this applies both to the scientists in Islam and in science. And if there is an Arab under them, then he is gearabiseerd. Nevertheless the owner of CHARIA (Islamic legislation) came from their middle. And this comes because the Arabs are ignorant and have had never knowledge. Even those whom Arab grammar products has made expatriate. First Sibawayh were from the Persian realm and then Al-Zajaaj, these two were AJAM (everyone who is no Arab). The expatriate have made grammar for the Arabs and learned them the Arab language, art, laws and opvoedkunde. The meesten which Al-Hadith after to products have told of origin no Arabs. Then the Islamic scientists were not almost all Arabs. The Arabs could not write, note and not to express. And all those scientists who and have explained products have noted Islamic leathers and Arab grammar and have kept no Arabs of origin. Science was conducted by the Persian scientists, whereas the Arabs for competing with were concerning the power. The Arabs have ternauwernood interfered with science. The industry was carried out by the Gearabiseerden. When the Arabs devastate Egypt and the power there got, the Egyptenaren have kept themselves busy with science and Egypt was the country of science and industry. To these gearabiseerden which kept themselves busy with science were: SAAD ADDIEN ATAFTAZI, IBN ALKHTIEB, NASR ADDIEN ATTUSIE. The work of other gearabiseerden has been destroyed. ...
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| colspan=3 align="center" | '''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/From the editor|From the editor]]'''
see what the ather arabs saied about ibn khaldun : the did read a few of waht ibn khaldun deed write:
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| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Brandt merger|Wikipedia critic's article merged]]
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| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Board elections|Board election series: Election information]]
 
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but that is not allthing the arabs claim also :
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Account compromised|Admin account apparently compromised, blocked]]
 
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/RfA withdrawn|Controversial RfA withdrawn, bureaucrats fail to clarify consensus]]
-the berber komed from yemen.
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-berberlanguage is a yemenitic dialect.
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/WikiWorld|WikiWorld comic: "They Might Be Giants"]]
-ibn khaldun is a yemenitic.
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Features and admins|Features and admins]]
-averroes is a arab.
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-the arabs broucht the civilation to north afrika . (you may ask ibn khaldun bout it).
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Technology report|Bugs, Repairs, and Internal Operational News]]
 
| width=50% | [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-06-18/Arbitration report|The Report on Lengthy Litigation]]
here you can find that the berber are victims of counterfeiting of their history because the Europeans have said that they are berber, whereas they are old Arabs.
|}
*http://www.akbarlibya.com/AF/AF4.htm
[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 10:31, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
I've shown you that he himself says that he's an Arab; there is nothing more to say on this topic. Go back to arguing over Ibn Rushd; there, at least you can claim that we don't know for certain what his ethnicity was, but Ibn Khaldun tells us his ethnicity himself. If you want to prove that he was Berber, go read the whole book, and tell me if you find even the smallest shred of evidence. Until then, I will revert any change you make to this article. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 07:24, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
oei, where ? and why did taha husayn and mohemd chafiq and all the berber and chiets saied thatb he is a berber ? if you don't believ that hadramut was the name of sousse , see: We visit one of the most attractive resorts in Tunisia today. Sousse, the ancient "Hadrumete", source : http://www.bestway.com/itineraries/t56.html [[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 10:57, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
No. There is linguistically no way that the Latin "Hadrumetum" could have become Hadhramaut in Arabic - H disappeared from Latin long before the Arabs reached North Africa. If they had taken over the name, which as far as I know thye did not, it would have become &#1571;&#1583;&#1585;&#1608;&#1605;&#1610;&#1578;. If you claim that "Hadhramawt" has ever been used in Arabic to mean "Sousse", then prove it; show me one medieval source in Arabic calling Sousse Hadhramawt. Besides, didn't you notice the text is talking about Qahtan, the mythical ancestor of the Arabs? And Murra, which is still a big Yemeni tribe? - Mustafaa 23:12, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
OK, even you can't pretend he wasn't Arab now:[http://www.alwaraq.com/index2.htm?i=116&page=2429]
 
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&#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605;: &#1608;&#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1605;&#1606; &#1593;&#1602;&#1576;&#1607; &#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585;&#1608; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606;. &#1608;&#1576;&#1606;&#1608; &#1571;&#1576;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1575;&#1589;&#1610;: &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583;&#1548; &#1608;&#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;. &#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: -&#1608;&#1571;&#1582;&#1608;&#1607;&#1605; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606;&#1548; &#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1602;&#1576;. &#1608;&#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1603;&#1610;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1588;&#1607;&#1608;&#1585; &#1576;&#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1606;&#1583;&#1604;&#1587; &#1605;&#1606; &#1578;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;&#1610;&#1584; &#1605;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1580;&#1585;&#1610;&#1591;&#1610;&#1548; &#1608;&#1607;&#1608; &#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1605;&#1587;&#1604;&#1605; &#1593;&#1605;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1576;&#1602;&#1610; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1576;&#1603;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1575;&#1604;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1579;&#1605;&#1575;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1583;&#1575;&#1582;&#1604;. &#1608;&#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1605;&#1607; &#1571;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607;. &#1602;&#1575;&#1604;: &#1608;&#1604;&#1605; &#1610;&#1576;&#1602; &#1605;&#1606; &#1608;&#1604;&#1583; &#1603;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1574;&#1610;&#1587; &#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1584;&#1603;&#1608;&#1585; &#1573;&#1604;&#1575; &#1571;&#1576;&#1608; &#1575;&#1604;&#1601;&#1590;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1601; &#1576;&#1606; &#1571;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1603;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576;- &#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1607;&#1609; &#1603;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1586;&#1605;.
 
For the benefit of non-Arabic speakers: the chapter is about his own origins, and the key line is: "And '''our ancestry is from Hadhramaut, from the Arabs of Yemen, via Wa'il ibn Hajar, from the best of the Arabs, well-known and respected. &#1608;&#1606;&#1587;&#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606;&#1548; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1571;&#1602;&#1610;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1548; &#1605;&#1593;&#1585;&#1608;&#1601; &#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1581;&#1576;&#1577;.'''. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 20:00, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
i don't understand why are you writing all this. i know that the arabs claim that he was a arab. (but that is juist a smalle counterfeinting ,if you want to see more ,i will kopie that for you) . and what i say now, is not saying that he was a berber (according to my was he a berber), but i'm not here to say what he is. i write what the learends saied. it is nonsens tot say that was from yemen who where is andalusie , and he he is born is tunisie. if the arabs have decency feeling , then they saied not that he was an arab. ibn khaldun saied that the most arabs are barbarian. and they are seldom learend, and he saied that north afrika was nice, but the arabs did it distroyed. ibn khaldun saied that even the schientist of the relegion where not arabs. such as albokhari and moslim , and the are the most scientist and they are the most important scholars of islam. read this : http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=1
 
i realy don't knouw if you serieusly think that he was an arab. if you are such as the arabs who saied that Plato and athena and romein arabic words. if such as the arabs who saied that the berber komed from yemen, of such us the arabs who saied that aksiel and dihya and salih ibn tarif were jews...
 
if yoy want the truth there is not proofs that ibn khaldun were arab of berber. i want not to say what is his origine. that for the scientist. but you don't think that i will say that he was an arab, because the arabs saied that. even same are arabs saied that he was a berber such as taha husayn and the arab of the ex-link.
we know that his origin is unknown and same arabs (not all of them) that he was an arab , and same berber (not all of them) claim that he was a berber. you know that [http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=405433 Taha Hussein] was not stupid to say that he was a berber if he was realy an arab. and you know that [http://www.mondeberbere.com/culture/chafik/indexc.htm Mohamed Chafik] : not so stupied to say that he was probably a berber same us he may be an arab.
 
: Taha Hussein may not be stupid, but (like 99.999% of the world) I doubt he ever read the entire Kitab al-Ibar. If he had, he would know - just as you should now know - that Ibn Khaldun says clearly and directly that he was an Arab and his ancestors came from Yemen. If you think Ibn Khaldun was such a big liar, why do you want him to be Berber anyway? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 19:18, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
==Conclusion==
if you are so searly that he was an arab. you can bleave to think so. and is also for my if i think that he was a berber. BUT because his oringine , such as i saied, is unknouwn we can just write what there is saied.
and that is so :" the origine of ibn khaldun is uncertain, that arab claim that he was an arab from yemen , his familly was in sapain, and he is born in tunisie. but other berber claim that he was a berber, because according to them (the berber) there is no proofs that ibn khaldun realy was from yemen. such as taha hussein and mohamed chafik and others. and the other important reason is that he did writed very negatieve about the arabs. [[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 11:00, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
:Explain this one thing to me: Why are you claiming that Ibn Khaldun lied about his ancestry? Or if you understand Arabic better: &#1604;&#1605;&#1575;&#1584;&#1575; &#1578;&#1602;&#1608;&#1604; &#1571;&#1606; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1603;&#1584;&#1576; &#1604;&#1605;&#1575; &#1602;&#1575;&#1604; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1601;&#1610; &#1603;&#1578;&#1575;&#1576;&#1607;&#1567; It's not "the Arabs" that claim he was Arab; it's IBN KHALDUN that claims he was Arab! Can you read? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 19:10, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
<p dir=rtl lang=ara>
&#1603;&#1578;&#1576; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1593;&#1606; &#1606;&#1601;&#1587;&#1607; &#1601;&#1610; &#1603;&#1578;&#1575;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1576;&#1585;: "&#1608;&#1606;&#1587;&#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606;&#1548; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1571;&#1602;&#1610;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1548; &#1605;&#1593;&#1585;&#1608;&#1601; &#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1581;&#1576;&#1577;" (&#1589;. 2429&#1548; alwaraq.com).
&#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1604;&#1610;&#1587; &#1602;&#1608;&#1604; &#1581;&#1586;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1593;&#1579; &#1608;&#1604;&#1575; &#1602;&#1608;&#1604; &#1580;&#1605;&#1575;&#1604; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1606;&#1575;&#1589;&#1585; &#1608;&#1604;&#1575; &#1602;&#1608;&#1604; &#1607;&#1608;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610; &#1576;&#1608;&#1605;&#1583;&#1610;&#1606;&#1548; &#1576;&#1604; &#1607;&#1584;&#1575; &#1602;&#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1593;&#1606; &#1571;&#1580;&#1583;&#1575;&#1583;&#1607;. &#1604;&#1605;&#1575;&#1584;&#1575; &#1578;&#1585;&#1610;&#1583; &#1571;&#1606; &#1578;&#1586;&#1593;&#1605; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1571;&#1605;&#1575;&#1586;&#1610;&#1594;&#1610; &#1573;&#1584;&#1575; &#1578;&#1593;&#1578;&#1576;&#1585;&#1607; &#1603;&#1584;&#1575;&#1576;&#1567; - Mustafaa 19:25, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
</p>
 
1+ ibn khaldun is not a liar, but the arabs .
2+this one is not a berber:http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/biography/viewentry.php?id=808
 
the mother of ibn khaldun may be an arab women.[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 11:01, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
According to Ibn Khaldun, it was his father: &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1575;&#1604;&#1581;&#1587;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1575;&#1576;&#1585; &#1576;&#1606; &#1605;&#1581;&#1605;&#1583; &#1576;&#1606; &#1573;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1607;&#1610;&#1605; &#1576;&#1606; &#1593;&#1576;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1606; &#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606;. &#1604;&#1575; &#1571;&#1584;&#1603;&#1585; &#1605;&#1606; &#1606;&#1587;&#1576;&#1610; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; &#1594;&#1610;&#1585; &#1607;&#1572;&#1604;&#1575;&#1569; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1588;&#1585;&#1577;&#1548; &#1608;&#1610;&#1594;&#1604;&#1576; &#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1575;&#1604;&#1592;&#1606; &#1571;&#1606;&#1607;&#1605; &#1571;&#1603;&#1579;&#1585;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1606;&#1607; &#1587;&#1602;&#1591; &#1605;&#1579;&#1604;&#1607;&#1605; &#1593;&#1583;&#1583;&#1575;&#1611;&#1548;. So basically, you prefer to take the word of one website which doesn't say where it got its information from over the word of Ibn Khaldun himself. You ever heard the story that ends &#1605;&#1593;&#1586;&#1577; &#1608;&#1604;&#1608; &#1591;&#1575;&#1585;&#1578;!? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 19:00, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
the mother of ibn khaldun may be an arab women . that is funny .[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 12:16, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
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The page includes a detailed discussion of Ibn Khaldun's own claim to be Arab and of the fact that a few biographers have suggested he may be falsely claiming to be Arab. I don't see what more any reasonable observer could want. Given that we have this paragraph, I suppose we could remove "Arab" from the first paragraph and defer all ethnic discussion to the second one, but that is about it. Do you have any perspective on this, Lectiodifficilior? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 18:26, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 
to be a judge about yourself is not perfect. but i'm very happy to write some quotes of ibn khaldun to the world. let it so. [[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 13:48, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
Indeed. I'm happy to keep the quote; in fact, I've even gone to the trouble of fixing it. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 20:49, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
good, because some arabs claim that they brought the civilation to north africa . like as this :"...&#1571;&#1589;&#1576;&#1581;&#1578; &#1605;&#1583;&#1610;&#1606;&#1577; &#1602;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576;&#1577; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1575; &#1578;&#1587;&#1605;&#1609; &#1578;&#1608;&#1606;&#1587; &#1571;&#1607;&#1605; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1575;...[http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%B7%D8%A7%D8%AC]" english : and later became an other city near it and its name became Tunis ,more impotant then it .(the tunis of the arabs is became more important then the carthago of the romeins) . but what is the meanning of ibn khaldun (the tunisian) ? see :
'''A nation which is submitted by the Arabs, will succumb''' the original article :[http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=8#s4][[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 11:21, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
You need to reread that article. 1. Tunis was built by the Phoenicians too. 2. In the 6th century AD, Tunis ''was'' more important than Carthage (and has been ever since.) [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 22:08, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
"&#1608;&#1576;&#1593;&#1583; &#1601;&#1578;&#1581; &#1602;&#1585;&#1591;&#1575;&#1580; &#1601;&#1610; 698 &#1605; &#1571;&#1589;&#1576;&#1581;&#1578; &#1605;&#1583;&#1610;&#1606;&#1577; &#1602;&#1585;&#1610;&#1576;&#1577; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1575; &#1578;&#1587;&#1605;&#1609; &#1578;&#1608;&#1606;&#1587; &#1571;&#1607;&#1605; &#1605;&#1606;&#1607;&#1575;&#1548; &#1608;&#1571;&#1582;&#1610;&#1585;&#1575; &#1585;&#1580;&#1593; &#1602;&#1585;&#1591;&#1575;&#1580; &#1570;&#1579;&#1575;&#1585; &#1594;&#1610;&#1585; &#1605;&#1587;&#1603;&#1608;&#1606;&#1548; &#1610;&#1576;&#1606;&#1608;&#1606; &#1576;&#1607;&#1575; &#1587;&#1603;&#1575;&#1606; &#1578;&#1608;&#1606;&#1587; &#1576;&#1610;&#1608;&#1578;&#1607;&#1605;." na the Feth (the arabic name for the invasion on the name of the islam) comed an other city near of it its name was tunisia more important than it (carthago of the romeins) ...[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 10:47, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)
-----
hey ''''Zero'''' , if you want to protect the page ,you have to protect it with the works of ibn khaldun.[[User:Aziri|Aziri]] 12:23, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
At least on this article you have the excuse that the quote is vaguely relevant. Now maybe you could try and correct the translation yourself. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 18:10, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 
== Translation ==
 
Moved from [[ Wikipedia:Translation into English]]:
*'''Article''': [[:de:Ibn Khaldun]]
*'''Corresponding English-language article''': [[Ibn Khaldun]]
*'''Worth doing because''': The German article&mdash;which is [[:de:Wikipedia:Exzellente Artikel|featured-quality]]&mdash;has a much better biography and summary of his works.
* '''Originally Requested by''': [[User:Mirv|&#8212;No-One]][[User talk:Mirv|&nbsp;''Jones'']] 02:06, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
*'''Status''': done. But could be checked for typos etc and English/Wiki-spelling of names, and also there seems to be (looking at some of the external links listed) some confusion/contradiction over parts of his middle life (all the intrigue, who and where) which somebody could check. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 10:22, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
*'''Other notes''':
------------
==The contadiction !==
Moustapha, you wrote this:
::"One website - Salaam.co.uk (http://www.salaam.co.uk/knowledge/biography/viewentry.php?id=808) - claims, without giving any sources, that this ancestry was through his mother and that his father was "a native of Berber" (sic), although this contradicts Ibn Khaldun's own words, since he traces his genealogy back to Khaldun through his father's side:
::"Abd ar-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ibn Muhammad ibn Jabir ibn Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Khaldun. Of my genealogy back to Khaldun I recall only these ten, although there must have been more..." - (p. 2428, Al-Waraq (http://www.alwaraq.com/)'s edition)"
 
I don't know what are his sources, but i don't know how the own words of ibn Khaldun contradicts the claim of "Salaam.co.uk". Can you explain that, please ?[[User:Akzennay|Akzennay]] 13:30, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
Moustapha, you wrote this:
::In his autobiography Ibn Khaldun traces his descent back to the time of the Prophet Muhammad through an Arabic-Yemeni tribe from Hadhramaut, which came to Spain in the eighth century at the beginning of the Islamic conquest. In his own words: "And our ancestry is from Hadhramaut, from the Arabs of Yemen, via Wa'il ibn Hajar, from the best of the Arabs, well-known and respected." (p. 2429, Al-Waraq (http://www.alwaraq.com/)'s edition).
 
Can you give the souce, please ? Because if he has really said that, then it would be nonsens to say he was Berber. ;) [[User:Akzennay|Akzennay]] 13:43, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
How much more sourcing do you want than the page number and the website? You speak Arabic. Al-Waraq has the entire works of Ibn Khaldun online. Register on that site, find Tarikh Ibn Khaldun, and go to page number 2429. Do I need to spell it out any further, or do I have to ask someone to translate this into Dutch before you manage to understand it? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 02:47, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
Just to make things easier, let me point out that I already quoted this in Arabic above: &#1608;&#1606;&#1587;&#1576;&#1606;&#1575; &#1581;&#1590;&#1585;&#1605;&#1608;&#1578;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1593;&#1585;&#1576; &#1575;&#1604;&#1610;&#1605;&#1606;&#1548; &#1573;&#1604;&#1609; &#1608;&#1575;&#1574;&#1604; &#1576;&#1606; &#1581;&#1580;&#1585;&#1548; &#1605;&#1606; &#1571;&#1602;&#1610;&#1575;&#1604; &#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1548; &#1605;&#1593;&#1585;&#1608;&#1601; &#1608;&#1604;&#1607; &#1589;&#1581;&#1576;&#1577; - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 03:02, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
Now, I don't think this is the best manner to give any source, I asked for a source, not for a question, so I have never heard that Ibn Khaldun did considerd himself as Arab, if you can give any reliable source, then I will believe he was an Arab. Give me a source for that last quote, and then it's up. You also didn't give the explanation for wiche you called " the contradiction ", That auteur could be interested to know the reason with logical explanation. At last, I find it a wonder that you delited the quote about the Berbers. Is it not so nice ?[[User:Akzennay|Akzennay]] 11:02, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
I gave you a source: p. 2429 of &#1578;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610;&#1582; &#1575;&#1576;&#1606; &#1582;&#1604;&#1583;&#1608;&#1606; as found on alwaraq.com . It's Ibn Khaldun that I'm quoting, in case you didn't gather that. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 04:41, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
And if you want to post quotes, this is the wrong place. Try [http://en.wikiquote.org Wikiquotes]. - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 04:43, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
But, since your command of English is apparently inadequate to understand the instructions I gave you above, I suggest you examine the following mirror of the site I cited: [http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:iWGgBw6vKIAJ:www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp%3FBID%3D163%26CID%3D252+%22%D9%85%D9%86+%D8%A3%D9%82%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%84+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%8C+%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%81+%D9%88%D9%84%D9%87+%D8%B5%D8%AD%D8%A8%D8%A9%22&hl=en] (http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=252). - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 05:07, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
::My thanks for the source, I didn't can find it. thus he was Arab. But I don't know why Taha hussien said he was berber "contrary to Taha Hussein's remark that Ibn Khaldun was a Berber,"[http://encyclopedia.lockergnome.com/s/b/Ibn_Khaldun], and I also don't understand why Dr. Chafik said that he was a Berber with the refference to the claim of Taha Hussein ([http://tawalt.com/monthly/33_shafeeq_b.pdf]P 123), And Enan [http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/knts.htm]. ( these questions aren't not to you)
::They mean most probably that he considerd himself as arab for ideological reasons (The caliph have to be Arab..., (according to the prophet of the muslims (or Arabs) "Mohamed" as example.(see: Ibn khaldun [http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:2aygeNOpB-QJ:www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp%3FBID%3D163%26CID%3D11+%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%86+%D8%AE%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86+%D8%A3%D9%86%D9%85%D8%A7+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%A6%D9%85%D8%A9+%D9%85%D9%86+%D9%82%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%B4&hl=nl])), and the other comment is that he attacked the Arabs.(according to me) It's nonsens to say that he used the term "Arab" to refer to the bedouins. He even said that the Berbers and the arabs are bedouins, but he said in the same page that the cities who would be visited by the Arabs wouldn't still exist more[http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:QHfkgQxtOicJ:www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp%3FBID%3D163%26CID%3D24+%D8%AE%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88&hl=nl]. But he said about the Berbers in another page that they are noble [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ibn_Khaldun&oldid=12463970#On_the_Berberse]. even Ibn khaldun didn't attacke the bedouins, he said about them that they are most original, honest..[http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:5Lm-uFu080IJ:www.matrouh.gov.eg/matrouhsite/ELBADEA.htm+%D8%AE%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%88%D9%86+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%AF%D9%88&hl=nl]. But about the Arabs you can read this:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ibn_Khaldun&oldid=12463970#On_the_Arabs]. Thanks again.[[User:Akzennay|Akzennay]] 10:16, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
== ibn Khaldun al-Hadrami ==
 
Ibn Khaldun has called himself an Arab and traced himself to an Arab-Yemeni Tribe. And that can be read in his books, which can be fond in todays Library's. His books were translated into many languages, so that should not be a problem for non-arabic readers.
This is an undeniable Fact! even if he was really a berber.
 
If it helps to soften this racist war, there was a genetic study, which can be read in Scientific Journals, which says that Berbers and Yemenites are related. And this overlaps the berber oral traditions of originating from an ancient Yemeni people.
 
== Move ==
What about moving this article to '[[ibn Khaldun al-Hadrami]]'? I talked to some of my friends and some recongized the 'al-Hadrami' name, but not the 'Ibn Khaldun'. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 17:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:In English, Ibn Khaldun is by far the most common "short form", but I'm not necessarily opposed to such a move [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 04:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 
== Wikuquote ==
I think quotes would be better of moved to the dedicated site. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup>[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</sup> 17:06, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:They're quoted here to make a particular point, not just be general quotations (I would assume). [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 04:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 
==Arabic transliterations==
 
Many of the Arabic transliterations used in this article are funky ASCII-based non-standard transliterations, which need to be replaced by more appropriate transcriptions (using diacritic letters if thought necessary, but NOT using the ASCII "^" character, or using capital "A" as the transcription of a long vowel) -- accompanied by the original Arabic-alphabet text in a few cases. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 04:46, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 
== Removed quotations ==
 
I've removed the "quotations" section because it was quite
obvious chosen for racist reasons. Obviously these quotes
were put by Arab-haters, and probably Persian "nationalists".
 
The Persian quote in particular is amusing, since it is not
one quote, but sections of different paragraphs put together
to bolster Persian pride.
 
Is this the game to be played now? Scoure Ibn Khaldun's
works for any bits of praise or denigration of certain
groups?
 
When will a Greek come over and start putting in quotes
of Ibn Khaldun praising the Greeks?
 
And what of quotes denigrating blacks and northern Europeans?
 
Once again racial "nationalists" ruin Wikipedia.
 
[[User:MYLO|MYLO]] 20:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: Your deletions has been reverted. We do not go around wikipedia and delete everything that someone might consider racists .--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 04:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 
- - - -
 
For what reason are those quotes put int then?
 
Where are the quotes on food? On music? On Greeks? On
Byzantium?
 
The only two quotes on people are those denigrating
Arabs, and praising Persians?
 
if so, then where are the quotes about how blacks?
 
What are you trying to prove?
 
There is no reason for them to be there. Ibn Khaldun
isn't admired and read because of his views on race.
 
They go.
 
[[User:MYLO|MYLO]] 23:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 
==Name==
Why does the arabic script not include Abū Zayd? I only see ʕAbdu l-Rahman ibn Muħammad ibn Khaldūn al-Haḍramī.
[[User:Yom|Yom]] 05:20, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 
 
::I corrected that.[[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 15:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== Tunisian, now, huh? ==
 
a word to those who decided to give him a Tunisian nationality...you guys do realize Tunisian as a nationality by itself only developed very recently, just a few decades ago. Please don't falsify facts, he was an Arab, Tunis only became a nation-state centuries after he was born, no one can give that as his nationality. [[User:MB|MB]] 14:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
: Tunisian from the city of Tunis.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 03:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 
At the time there was no Tunisian nationality, why are you trying to give him a nationality which didn't exist at his time? [[User:MB|MB]] 10:57, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
: He was from the city of Tunis = Tunisian.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 12:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 
 
*Tunis is a a name of a city not a nationality.
*A person from london is called english. Ibn khaldun from tunis is called Arab.
*Ibn khaldun is arab and traced his ancestory back to Adam!
*All encyclopedia's call him Arab, e.g. [http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9367732?query=tunis&ct= brittanica], [http://www.bartleby.com/65/ib/IbnKhald.html Columbia Encyclopedia]
 
Do you understand now why he is Arab?. [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 12:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
: Nonsense he was not Arab , you do not seem to know anything about him, read his book , he was not arab by a long shot.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 13:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:: I wish you were right. This guy has humilated the arabs like no one else. But when someone writes that he is an arab and even bothers to trace his arab ancestory back to adam. Then you simply have to believe him. Ibn khaldun himself said that History is not about what is right and wrong. Its about what is most probable and less probable. So please stop vandalizing his page. [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 13:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 
Actually in his autobiography, he himself said he's an Arab, do you see? Are you trying to say he lied? If you do it's suspicious speculation, you simply can't prove it, please stop vandalizing the page. [[User:MB|MB]] 13:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 
== About the "On Persians" section ==
 
It's in bits and pieces, every three words we have ellipses, I wonder what's said in place of the elusive ellipses? Anyway, unless the Iranian editors decide to put on the whole quote, let's keep Ibn Khaldun's article out of propagandist rhetoric, shall we? If anybody wants to publish the alleged quotes, let them put it in their own website. Then the burden of proof and the responsibilty of explaining the thousand and one ellipses will be on them, not people who're trying to write a neutral, informative encyclopedia. [[User:MB|MB]] 14:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: It's a cited material with reference relative to Ibn Khaldun's ideas and philosophy. It has also been re-published in Richard Frye's book "The Golden Age of Persia". Do not remove cited material, this would be vandalism! --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 21:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 
 
::I have searched in [[The Muqaddimah]] and found nothing: http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=2#s2. [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 22:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::: Pick up a copy of Professor [[Richard Frye]]'s book "The Golden Age of Persia", the quote is there. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 23:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::*This article is NOT about Richard Frye and his book "The Golden Age of Persia"
::::*The "on Persians" '''doesn't exist''' in the [[The Muqaddimah]].
[[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 23:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
::It comes from section 42 of the [[The Muqaddimah]] titled '''Most of the scholars in Islam have been nonArabs (Persians)'''.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 02:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:::: The quote about Persians from [[Ibn Khaldun]] is republished by Professor [[Richard Frye]] in his book "The Golden Age of Persia". That's an authoritative source. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 00:30, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
:::::How could he republish something that doesn't exist? [[User:MB|MB]] 09:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::: As stated alerady, it's from section 42 of the [[The Muqaddimah]]. Please be advised that removing cited material could be considered vandalism. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 10:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::::I have searched in [[The Muqaddimah]] and found nothing.Here is the link for the online book: http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=2#s2.
::::::If you find anything then please paste it here.You will have problems with that, do you know why?? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST. -- Jidan--
 
: I can confirm the existance of this chapter. --[[User:Khashayar Karimi|Kash]] 11:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
::Dito , and did you get that it is called "Most of the scholars in Islam have been nonArabs (Persians)" , it is not called "on the persians" as I am guessing you believe.--[[User:CltFn|CltFn]] 12:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 
Hi, please don`t keep reverting this section, since it presents an NPOV, and comes with an authoritative source, like that of a Harvard University historian, Prof. Emeritus R. N. Fye. Wiki should not be a battleground for pushing any sort of POV. Please know not accepting references and erasing an entire section is not acceptable.[[User:Zmmz|Zmmz]] 04:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 
Hi, yes please follow your own advice, first Zmmz. Now that it's out of the way, I need a reference from the original text not a harvard translated edition. [[User:MB|MB]] 21:23, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:What about this?
::''According to Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) 'It is a remarkable fact that, with few exceptions, most Muslim scholars both in the religious and in the intellectual sciences have been non-Arabs. [When a scholar is of Arab origin, he is non-Arab in language and upbringing and has non-Arab teachers.]'
:That's without the ellipses, btw. To claim that this is not in or an accurate translation of what is in the Muqaddimah is to claim that there is a huge misunderstanding or conspiracy about what that book says, and if you want that view expressed on Wikipedia then you'll need to find verifiable references for it. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup> <sub>00:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
::: Ibn khaldun said '''non-Arabs''' and NOT Persians. And the title of that chapter was: ''Most of the scholars in Islam have been non-Arabs''. Non-Arabs could be egyptians, syrians, turks, berbers, greeks, indians including persians and NOT just Persians!!. Therefore Ibn Khaldun's Qoute as it is now, is FALSE and should be and will be deleted from the Article. [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 22:48, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::The quote on the article already said "non-Arabs", didn't it? And I don't see what the title of the chapter has to do with it. Maybe it would be better to leave the quote and add some note about how the accuracy of the translation to the word "Persians" is contested. (By the way, double-exclamation points and capitalized words usually aren't necessary, so you might want to word your replies to sound calmer.) &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup> <sub>00:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
::::Until such a clarification is made, I added a tag saying its factual accuracy (because of Persians instead of non-Arabs) and neutrality (because of possibly selective use of ellipses) are disputed, above the quote. Is that OK? &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup> <sub>00:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
:::::Thanks Tifego. I am a native arabic speaker. I have read Ibn Khaldun's original chapter in arabic ''"الفصل الثالث والأربعون في أن حملة العلم في الإسلام أكثرهم العجم - Chapter 43, Most of the scholars in Islam have been non-Arabs "'', which can be found online here: http://www.al-eman.com/islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=163&CID=41#s1. The chapter describes how most scholars in Islam were non-Arabs and If Arabs than becasue they lived in a non-arab environment. By non-arab environment, Ibn khadlun could have meant any of [[Al-andalus]], [[Persia]], [[Egypt]], [[Syria]], etc. The publisher of this false passage "smartly" picked sentence's and left some and swapped "non-Arab" with "persian", just to make the false illusion that Ibn khaldun, by non-arabs, meant only the persians.
:::::(BTW: I was always calm. I think it depends from which country you come from. double-exclamation points and capitalized words in my text above symblozies importance and not Anger). [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 00:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::: Ibn Khaldun is using the term "العجم" (alien), a word used in Arabic language for Persians and to exclusively refer to Persians, which is always translated as "Persian" into English language. Furthermore, the scientists he's citing as examples, are all Persians. There should be no doubt that he's talking about Persians. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 06:25, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::::: "العجم" means non-arabs. "فرس" means persian. Ibn Khaldun used both words in his Book. So, you are wrong!. [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 08:01, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 
::::::::You didn't address his other point, "the scientists he's citing as examples, are all Persians". &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup> <sub>00:46, 20 March 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
:::::::: If you look up the definition of "العجم", this is what you get: '''''The term Ajam (Pron: عجم) is used to refer to Persians'''''. Furthermore, works like "Zabúr-i-Ajam" have been translated into English by scholars as "Persian Psalms". --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 09:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::::::::It was a mistranslation then, non-Arabs doesn't exclusively state Persians. [[User:195.229.241.180|195.229.241.180]] 12:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 
I have found a [[Google Print]] ref for the citation: [http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&vid=ISBN1842120115&id=qHPQNIxwF5QC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=thus+the+founders+of+grammar+were&sig=NATZRdiomn6tddRrWi657aNNG7I]. Hope it helps. Btw, you may want to move to a more modern referencing sytem (see [[Wikipedia:Inline citations]]).--[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] <sup><font color="green">[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]</font></sup> 18:12, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:This is not what's being disputed, do you have the original text reference? Persian editors so far have failed in giving any sources from the original text to verify their claims. [[User:MB|MB]] 18:00, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:: The original text reference in Arabic is on this very section. Also, the [[Google Print]] ref for the citation, from a published scholarly work, is considered verifiable evidence. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 18:34, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 
:::See my reply a few lines below this, since you bring up the same point there. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>06:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
=== The Golden Age of Persia ===
 
[[Image:The Golden Age of Persia.JPG|thumb|right|200px|From the book: "The Golden Age of Persia", by Richard Nelson Frye (Page 150)]]
I think this scan can be helpful to settle down this dispute. [[User:Amir85|Amir85]] 20:28, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 
: Im sorry, but what will settle the issue is if you take enough arabic lessons to know the difference between Ajam ( عجم, non-arab) and fars(فرس, persian). Why should ibn khaldoun use both words in the same sentence when they both mean the same thing????? [[User:Jidan|Jidan]] 01:00, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:: Check the image again. The quote is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability verifiable], and that's all there is to it. --[[User:ManiF|ManiF]] 01:05, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:::That is not exactly the issue here. I believe MB and Jidan are both saying that this passage is a mistranslation. I have seen on one website discussing this passage mention that the author probably did not literally mean Persians and instead meant to include other non-Arabs. Sorry, I can't remember which site, but if that turns out to be verifiable then it could also warrant an aside in the article about it. Nobody is arguing that the passage isn't verifiable (I think), but it's possible that other verifiable information about the passage's accuracy is being neglected. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>06:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
No, that doesn’t seem to be the issue at all, user MB, user Jidan etc., are just giving frivolous disputes with no valid substance behind it, mostly as I get it, they just don’t like the quote, because they believe it belittles Arabs, which I disagree with. One could look at their messages in the edit boxes, when they reverted it in the beginning. If, the reason is verifiability, then the translation had gone through a highly rigorous scrutiny by Western scholars, such as Prof. Emritus R. N. Frye of Harvard, and others. We are behooved to such scholars for their work, and if we are to question such works, even as simple as a mere translation, then that is going down a very slippery slope.[[User:Zmmz|Zmmz]] 06:45, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:Until they can bring up an equally verifiable objection to the quote, they don't have much ground to dispute it, but please don't assume bad faith of them all. I think it's not entirely impossible that the word "Persian" is being taken too literally here, although I don't know anything about it myself. I did see some reference to this outside of Wikipedia. But again, you essentially win (whatever this argument is about) by default unless that other view can be verified and is notable. No need to bring up their motives or your respect for scholars. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>07:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
 
Oh no, it is not assuming bad faith at all, not at this point, rather it is my interpretation from their own comments, stating things like, the section is anti-Arab, I believe. Now, that is not a good reason to erase entire sections. In fact, another user just erased the same translation on the [[Richard Nelson Frye]] article, stating in the edit box, the quotes are ''anti-Arab''. Our job as historians is to report the facts in the encyclopedia, regardless of if we agree with it or not. Moreover, I do whole-heartedly believe that scholars know the difference between the word Persian and other in Arabic, such that in Arabic Persian is Al-Farisi. We have to give scholarly work a higher plateau, higher than our own personal opinions. Thanks[[User:Zmmz|Zmmz]] 07:24, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 
:I have moved my response, and your response to it, into that other article, because it is off-topic here. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>23:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
:To reiterate on this topic, there is no argument left here that I can see, until more information is presented. So there is no need to argue. It's my opinion that whoever is continually removing that quote from this page should stop for a while, and take the time to find a good, convincing reason why it should not be there. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>00:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
 
====Not clear====
Who exactly are you quoting? F. Rosenthal or R. Nelson??? [[User:Aucaman|'''Auca''']][[User:Aucaman/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''m'''</font>]][[User:Aucaman|'''an''']]<sup>[[User_talk:Aucaman|Talk]]</sup> 01:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
:I believe it's a quote of a quote of a translation. (Specifically, a quote of R. Frye's quote of F. Rosenthal's translation of Ibn Khaldūn's ''The Prologomena'') &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>07:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
::Well that should be made clear in article, right? The way it stands it appears as if the whole thing is a quote by Ibn Khaldun. [[User:Aucaman|'''Auca''']][[User:Aucaman/Esperanza|<font color="green">'''m'''</font>]][[User:Aucaman|'''an''']]<sup>[[User_talk:Aucaman|Talk]]</sup> 16:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 
 
== Wikipedia Weekly Episode 20 ==
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9041923?query=Ibn%20Khaldun&ct=
 
<div style="
in full Wali al-Din 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Bakr Muhammad ibn al-Hasan Ibn Khaldun the greatest Arab historian, who developed one of the earliest nonreligious philosophies of history, contained in his masterpiece, the Muqaddimah (“Introduction”).
border: outset 1px blue;
background-color: blue;
padding: 2px 2px 2px 2px;
">
<div style="
border: outset 1px red;
background-color: red;
padding: 2px 2px 2px 2px;
">
<div style="
border: inset 2px white;
background-color: #fffff3;
padding: 10px;
color: black;
">
'''Good news, everyone: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject WikipediaWeekly|<font color="blue">Wikipedia</font> <font color="red">Weekly</font>]] [[Wikipedia:WikiProject WikipediaWeekly/Episode20|Episode 20]] has been released!'''
 
'''.mp3''' and '''.ogg''' versions can be found at '''http://wikipediaweekly.com/2007/06/19/wikipedia-weekly-20-return-of-the-podcast/''' and as always, you can download old episodes and more at '''http://wikipediaweekly.com/'''.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/ib/IbnKhald.html
 
Please spread the word about Wikipedia Weekly, we're trying to spread the word so that people know about the project!
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ibn%20Khaldun
 
For Wikipedia Weekly — [[User:WODUP|'''''<font color="#4169E1">W<font color="#191970">ODU</font>P</font>''''']] 05:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
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:What? I don't understand what those links are for. They appear unrelated to what was being discussed above. &ndash;[[User:Tifego|<small>T</small><sub>i</sub><small>f</small><sub>e</sub><small>g</small><sub>o</sub>]]<sup>[[User Talk:Tifego|(t)]]</sup><sub>19:26, 3 April 2006 (UTC)</sub>
</div></div></div>
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