Talk:2006 Lebanon War and Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality/32: Difference between pages

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| title = &uarr;[[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality|(up)]]

!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]

| section =

[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]

| previous = &larr; [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality/31|(prev)]]

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| next = [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality/33|(next)]] &rarr;

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[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive1|Archive 1]]</br>

}}</noinclude>

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive2|Archive 2]]</br>

<noinclude>== [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Germany]] ==</noinclude>

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive3|Archive 3]]</br>

{{assessment header|Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Germany|WP Germany}}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive4|Archive 4]]</br>

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Dübs]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_D%C3%BCbs&oldid=84416376 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive5|Archive 5]]</br>

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Glaß]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Gla%C3%9F&oldid=73794174 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive6|Archive 6]]</br>

{{assessment | page=[[Henry I, Bishop of Augsburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_I%2C_Bishop_of_Augsburg&oldid=105226531 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive7|Archive 7]]</br>

{{assessment | page=[[Henry I, Margrave of the Saxon Ostmark]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_I%2c_Margrave_of_the_Saxon_Ostmark&oldid=57730971 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive8|Archive 8]]</br>

{{assessment | page=[[Henry II of Carinthia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_II_of_Carinthia&oldid=84481488 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

[[{{FULLPAGENAME}}/Archive9|Archive 9]]

{{assessment | page=[[Henry III of Limburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_III_of_Limburg&oldid=80975439 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

|}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry III, Duke of Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_III%2C_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=69814503 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry III, Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_III%2C_Duke_of_Brunswick-L%C3%BCneburg&oldid=53392356 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry IV of Limburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_IV_of_Limburg&oldid=80976056 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry IV of Luxembourg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_IV_of_Luxembourg&oldid=83705978 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry IV, Duke of Saxony]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_IV%2C_Duke_of_Saxony&oldid=57715203 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry LXXII, Prince of Reuss-Lobenstein-Ebersdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_LXXII%2C_Prince_of_Reuss-Lobenstein-Ebersdorf&oldid=70587222 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Maske]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Maske&oldid=103828134 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments={{Talk:Henry Maske/Comments}} ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Henry_Maske/Comments&action=edit edit comment]) }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Nicholas Bolander]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Nicholas_Bolander&oldid=79093172 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Oldenburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Oldenburg&oldid=101253001 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Raspe, Landgrave of Thuringia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Raspe%2c_Landgrave_of_Thuringia&oldid=119084400 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry Thode]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_Thode&oldid=87041097 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry V of Luxembourg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_V_of_Luxembourg&oldid=62829181 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry VI of Luxembourg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_VI_of_Luxembourg&oldid=82033880 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry VII, Duke of Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_VII%2C_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=55924854 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry XIV, Duke of Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_XIV%2C_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=102866491 ] | importance= | date=[[February 16]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry XV, Duke of Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_XV%2C_Duke_of_Bavaria&oldid=94331446 ] | importance= | date=[[February 16]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henry van Lyck]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henry_van_Lyck&oldid=91777893 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henryk Broder]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henryk_Broder&oldid=83343320 ] | importance= | date=[[October 26]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henryk Szatkowski]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henryk_Szatkowski&oldid=33789918 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henschel & Son]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henschel_%26_Son&oldid=106155485 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henschel Hs 126]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henschel_Hs_126&oldid=101595354 ] | importance= | date=[[January 27]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Henstedt-Ulzburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Henstedt-Ulzburg&oldid=98619144 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hep-Hep riots]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hep-Hep_riots&oldid=100671776 ] | importance= | date=[[January 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hepberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hepberg&oldid=116237528 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbede]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbede&oldid=107696534 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Backe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Backe&oldid=59962919 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Bauch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Bauch&oldid=82145332 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Dröse Stadion]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Dr%C3%B6se_Stadion&oldid=99240769 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Erhardt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Erhardt&oldid=77347246 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Freundlich]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Freundlich&oldid=69236850 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Fritzenwenger]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Fritzenwenger&oldid=122499109 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Holzing]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Holzing&oldid=41575474 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Ihlefeld]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Ihlefeld&oldid=127354558 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Kegel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Kegel&oldid=71653980 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Lang]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Lang&oldid=69567528 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Leupold]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Leupold&oldid=99125088 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Linge]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Linge&oldid=78384643 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert List]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_List&oldid=80550765 ] | importance= | date=[[October 31]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Martin]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Martin&oldid=32892567 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Mohr-Mayer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Mohr-Mayer&oldid=65570226 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Nachbar]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Nachbar&oldid=62873129 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Reinecker]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Reinecker&oldid=106994538 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Wehner]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Wehner&oldid=79326311 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert Zimmermann (footballer)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_Zimmermann_%28footballer%29&oldid=80218364 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbert von Bose]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbert_von_Bose&oldid=72789418 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbertingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbertingen&oldid=116350058 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herbstadt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herbstadt&oldid=118013490 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hercules (motorcycles)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hercules_%28motorcycles%29&oldid=107174160 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herdt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herdt&oldid=75085628 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herdwangen-Schönach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herdwangen-Sch%C3%B6nach&oldid=116350031 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hergatz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hergatz&oldid=117998865 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hergensweiler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hergensweiler&oldid=118005397 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heribert Rech]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heribert_Rech&oldid=50871539 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heringsdorf (Pomerania)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heringsdorf_%28Pomerania%29&oldid=111621651 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heringsdorf Airport]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heringsdorf_Airport&oldid=80964766 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herkheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herkheim&oldid=100097208 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herlazhofen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herlazhofen&oldid=97719018 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman Frasch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Frasch&oldid=100664946 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman I, Archbishop of Cologne]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_I%2C_Archbishop_of_Cologne&oldid=78444032 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman I, Duke of Swabia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_I%2C_Duke_of_Swabia&oldid=68320969 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman II, Duke of Swabia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_II%2C_Duke_of_Swabia&oldid=48513965 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman Rarebell]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Rarebell&oldid=83279216 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman VI, Margrave of Baden]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_VI%2c_Margrave_of_Baden&oldid=69955946 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman Weigel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Weigel&oldid=64055539 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman Wirth]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Wirth&oldid=98800328 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herman of Salm]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_of_Salm&oldid=109987227 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Allmers]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Allmers&oldid=79027730 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Anschütz-Kaempfe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Ansch%C3%BCtz-Kaempfe&oldid=69237528 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Aron]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Aron&oldid=66816994 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann August Hagen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_August_Hagen&oldid=61848629 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Bauer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Bauer&oldid=54467864 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Berens]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Berens&oldid=81914685 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Blumenthal]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Blumenthal&oldid=101207936 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Burmeister]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Burmeister&oldid=76973797 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Böse]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_B%C3%B6se&oldid=96995836 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Cohen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Cohen&oldid=98801374 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Dessau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Dessau&oldid=78493019 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Emil Fischer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Emil_Fischer&oldid=80393274 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Engelhard]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Engelhard&oldid=78856145 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Eris Busse]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Eris_Busse&oldid=38794246 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Finsterlin]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Finsterlin&oldid=57584422 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Franz Moritz Kopp]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Franz_Moritz_Kopp&oldid=77144361 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Friedberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Friedberg&oldid=76724892 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Friedmann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Friedmann&oldid=78706361 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Friedrich Graebe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Friedrich_Graebe&oldid=52257611 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Giesler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Giesler&oldid=78598006 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Graf Keyserling]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Graf_Keyserling&oldid=79236524 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Gundert]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Gundert&oldid=82493324 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Guthe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Guthe&oldid=91838594 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Hamelmann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Hamelmann&oldid=84480966 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Hankel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Hankel&oldid=67370955 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Hendrich]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Hendrich&oldid=71152184 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Hirt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Hirt&oldid=77497663 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Höcherl]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_H%C3%B6cherl&oldid=64851141 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Höfle]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_H%C3%B6fle&oldid=98797108 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann II, Landgrave of Thuringia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_II%2c_Landgrave_of_Thuringia&oldid=116352745 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Josef Abs]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Josef_Abs&oldid=70349064 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Joseph Klein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Joseph_Klein&oldid=80600434 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Kant]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Kant&oldid=48625720 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Kantorowicz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Kantorowicz&oldid=84266763 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Lattemann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Lattemann&oldid=78697604 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Levi]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Levi&oldid=77144558 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Ludwig Blankenburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Ludwig_Blankenburg&oldid=52944028 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Löns]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_L%c3%b6ns&oldid=130178812 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Löns Stadium]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_L%C3%B6ns_Stadium&oldid=85391362 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Müller (botanist)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_M%C3%BCller_%28botanist%29&oldid=61541415 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Oberth Space Travel Museum]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Oberth_Space_Travel_Museum&oldid=46457044 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Osthoff]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Osthoff&oldid=59271676 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Reinecke]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Reinecke&oldid=71274864 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Sasse]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Sasse&oldid=82202011 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Schaaffhausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Schaaffhausen&oldid=114020334 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Scherchen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Scherchen&oldid=78122237 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Schwarz (philosopher)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Schwarz_%28philosopher%29&oldid=73639786 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Sudermann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Sudermann&oldid=85566872 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann Weinbuch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_Weinbuch&oldid=78101434 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann of Fritzlar]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_of_Fritzlar&oldid=99136450 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Bonninghausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Bonninghausen&oldid=83783310 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Eichhorn]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Eichhorn&oldid=71744362 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Ihering]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Ihering&oldid=74032673 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Richthofen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Richthofen&oldid=75479914 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Schmid]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Schmid&oldid=100776010 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermann von Siemens]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermann_von_Siemens&oldid=64743890 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermannplatz (Berlin U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermannplatz_%28Berlin_U-Bahn%29&oldid=73922629 ] | importance= | date=[[October 27]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermannsburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermannsburg&oldid=112092116 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments={{Talk:Hermannsburg/Comments}} ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hermannsburg/Comments&action=edit edit comment]) }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermannstraße (Berlin U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermannstra%C3%9Fe_%28Berlin_U-Bahn%29&oldid=70592857 ] | importance= | date=[[October 27]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermaringen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermaringen&oldid=97464417 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hermsdorf (Berlin)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hermsdorf_%28Berlin%29&oldid=75675979 ] | importance= | date=[[October 26]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herne power plant]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herne_power_plant&oldid=109865958 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heroldsbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heroldsbach&oldid=116987201 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heroldsberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heroldsberg&oldid=116259354 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heroldstatt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heroldstatt&oldid=107902954 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herr Pastor]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herr_Pastor&oldid=76265609 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herren Tunnel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herren_Tunnel&oldid=97605009 ] | importance= | date=[[May 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrenhausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrenhausen&oldid=97533954 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herreninsel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herreninsel&oldid=88912335 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herresbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herresbach&oldid=97465026 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrischried]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrischried&oldid=116357866 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrmann & Kleine]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrmann_%26_Kleine&oldid=40822473 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrngiersdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrngiersdorf&oldid=116517364 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrnhütte (Nuremberg U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrnh%C3%BCtte_%28Nuremberg_U-Bahn%29&oldid=46310655 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrsching]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrsching&oldid=108877756 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herrstein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herrstein&oldid=97465597 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herstelle Abbey]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herstelle_Abbey&oldid=61628825 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herta Huber]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herta_Huber&oldid=108715424 ] | importance= | date=[[May 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herwarth Walden]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herwarth_Walden&oldid=88605638 ] | importance= | date=[[May 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herxheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herxheim&oldid=74117351 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herzebrock-Clarholz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herzebrock-Clarholz&oldid=111368779 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Herzhorn]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herzhorn&oldid=109149417 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hesedorf railway station]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hesedorf_railway_station&oldid=111412492 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hesel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hesel&oldid=116188234 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hespenbusch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hespenbusch&oldid=97752921 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hesse-Kassel thaler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hesse-Kassel_thaler&oldid=101809400 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hesse-Kassel vereinsthaler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hesse-Kassel_vereinsthaler&oldid=101809779 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hessenlied]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hessenlied&oldid=78698180 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hessia]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hessia&oldid=64831539 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hessigheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hessigheim&oldid=97466548 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heteborn]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heteborn&oldid=97466944 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hettenleidelheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hettenleidelheim&oldid=109145095 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hettenshausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hettenshausen&oldid=117811638 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hetzles]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hetzles&oldid=116360187 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heuchelheim bei Frankenthal]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heuchelheim_bei_Frankenthal&oldid=125791988 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heuchlingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heuchlingen&oldid=97552077 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heukewalde]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heukewalde&oldid=97466761 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heuneburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heuneburg&oldid=97529147 ] | importance= | date=[[March 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heureka-Klett]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heureka-Klett&oldid=97707251 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heustreu]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heustreu&oldid=118013809 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heusweiler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heusweiler&oldid=112168177 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heute Abend wollen wir tanzen geh'n]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heute_Abend_wollen_wir_tanzen_geh%27n&oldid=74925800 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heuthen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heuthen&oldid=97467474 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heuweiler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heuweiler&oldid=116361927 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hevelli]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hevelli&oldid=126486841 ] | importance= | date=[[May 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heven-Papenholz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heven-Papenholz&oldid=108033710 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heyersdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heyersdorf&oldid=97043184 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heßdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=He%C3%9Fdorf&oldid=118522011 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Heßheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=He%C3%9Fheim&oldid=109144962 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[HfB - Business School of Finance & Management]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HfB_-_Business_School_of_Finance_%26_Management&oldid=87510399 ] | importance= | date=[[November 13]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hiddenhausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hiddenhausen&oldid=111386405 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hieronymous Theodor Richter]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hieronymous_Theodor_Richter&oldid=47098951 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hieronymus Bock]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hieronymus_Bock&oldid=83176299 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hieronymus Praetorius]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hieronymus_Praetorius&oldid=72791906 ] | importance= | date=[[October 31]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[High Prussian]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=High_Prussian&oldid=131487145 ] | importance= | date=[[May 16]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[High Rhine]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=High_Rhine&oldid=66420754 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Highland (band)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Highland_%28band%29&oldid=110738180 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hilde Hildebrand]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hilde_Hildebrand&oldid=69160869 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hilde Schramm]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hilde_Schramm&oldid=76989195 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hildegard Falck]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hildegard_Falck&oldid=82063084 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hildegard Hamm-Brücher]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hildegard_Hamm-Br%C3%BCcher&oldid=69643424 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hildrizhausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hildrizhausen&oldid=116375931 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hildrun Claus]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hildrun_Claus&oldid=82065545 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hilgertshausen-Tandern]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hilgertshausen-Tandern&oldid=116375884 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hille]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hille&oldid=111795235 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hille Perl]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hille_Perl&oldid=76749080 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hillerse]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hillerse&oldid=107528236 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hilter]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hilter&oldid=110198600 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hiltpoltstein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hiltpoltstein&oldid=116376268 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hilzingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hilzingen&oldid=116376403 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Himmelpforten]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Himmelpforten&oldid=96421648 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Himmelstadt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Himmelstadt&oldid=116853764 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hindenburg Line]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hindenburg_Line&oldid=101739109 ] | importance= | date=[[January 27]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hinduism in Germany]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hinduism_in_Germany&oldid=73766364 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hinrich Wilhelm Kopf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hinrich_Wilhelm_Kopf&oldid=79187129 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hinte]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hinte&oldid=111910502 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hinterschmiding]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hinterschmiding&oldid=116296547 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirrlingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirrlingen&oldid=115046796 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirsau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirsau&oldid=99203679 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirschaid]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirschaid&oldid=111797300 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirschbach, Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirschbach%2C_Bavaria&oldid=116384970 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirschberg (Rhein-Neckar)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirschberg_%28Rhein-Neckar%29&oldid=116384922 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hirschlanden transmitter]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hirschlanden_transmitter&oldid=84133410 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[History of Germany during World War I]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_Germany_during_World_War_I&oldid=109142490 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hitler Youth Knife]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hitler_Youth_Knife&oldid=131582583 ] | importance= | date=[[May 18]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hitzhofen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hitzhofen&oldid=116237495 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochburg&oldid=83883050 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochdorf, Biberach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochdorf%2c_Biberach&oldid=116405598 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochdorf, Esslingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochdorf%2c_Esslingen&oldid=116405636 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochdorf-Assenheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochdorf-Assenheim&oldid=125799956 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochkirch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochkirch&oldid=109143484 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochkirchliche Vereinigung Augsburgischen Bekenntnisses]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochkirchliche_Vereinigung_Augsburgischen_Bekenntnisses&oldid=126360919 ] | importance= | date=[[April 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochschule für Gestaltung Offenbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochschule_f%C3%BCr_Gestaltung_Offenbach&oldid=111237474 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochschule für Musik Hanns Eisler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochschule_f%C3%BCr_Musik_Hanns_Eisler&oldid=65826963 ] | importance= | date=[[October 28]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochspeyer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochspeyer&oldid=109144837 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hochstadt am Main]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hochstadt_am_Main&oldid=116835919 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hof-Plauen Airport]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hof-Plauen_Airport&oldid=125780486 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hofaschenbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hofaschenbach&oldid=126653515 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hofstetten, Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hofstetten%2c_Bavaria&oldid=110842524 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohberg&oldid=116406955 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohe Börde]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohe_B%C3%B6rde&oldid=53180619 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohe Elbgeest]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohe_Elbgeest&oldid=107963786 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenacker]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenacker&oldid=102433178 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenaltheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenaltheim&oldid=110110402 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenasperg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenasperg&oldid=97359854 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenau&oldid=116406566 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenbrunn]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenbrunn&oldid=117027488 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenburg, Bavaria]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenburg%2C_Bavaria&oldid=115054785 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenfeld]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenfeld&oldid=97711148 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenfels]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenfels&oldid=114896363 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenfinow]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenfinow&oldid=121448015 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohengandern]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohengandern&oldid=97473961 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenhameln]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenhameln&oldid=96421443 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenkammer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenkammer&oldid=116285924 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlockstedt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlockstedt&oldid=112573212 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Bartenstein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Bartenstein&oldid=41464710 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Ingelfingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Ingelfingen&oldid=41464727 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Jagstberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Jagstberg&oldid=41464735 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Kirchberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Kirchberg&oldid=41464746 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Langenburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Langenburg&oldid=103884945 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsf%C3%BCrst&oldid=41464785 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenpolding]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenpolding&oldid=116245746 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenroth]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenroth&oldid=118014660 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohensaaten]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohensaaten&oldid=119835854 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenschönhausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohensch%C3%B6nhausen&oldid=75685197 ] | importance= | date=[[October 26]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenstadt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenstadt&oldid=110022030 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenstein (Reutlingen)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenstein_%28Reutlingen%29&oldid=114945682 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohentengen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohentengen&oldid=115045916 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohentengen am Hochrhein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohentengen_am_Hochrhein&oldid=116407761 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenthann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenthann&oldid=116825831 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohentwiel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohentwiel&oldid=97346439 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenwart]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenwart&oldid=117812346 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenwart Nunnery]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenwart_Nunnery&oldid=102015100 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenwestedt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenwestedt&oldid=101985293 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenwestedt-Land]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenwestedt-Land&oldid=107954171 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenwutzen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenwutzen&oldid=61830253 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenzollernplatz (Berlin U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenzollernplatz_%28Berlin_U-Bahn%29&oldid=78494615 ] | importance= | date=[[October 27]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohenzollernplatz (Munich U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohenzollernplatz_%28Munich_U-Bahn%29&oldid=83850507 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohes Kreuz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohes_Kreuz&oldid=121713995 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohne]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohne&oldid=96421446 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hohner Harde]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hohner_Harde&oldid=108029776 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holdorf&oldid=74610035 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holenbrunn]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holenbrunn&oldid=134333612 ] | importance= | date=[[May 30]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Apfel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_Apfel&oldid=35147546 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Bauroth]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_Bauroth&oldid=123248769 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Börner]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_B%c3%b6rner&oldid=79516071 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Czukay]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_Czukay&oldid=121829590 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Geschwindner]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_Geschwindner&oldid=111800200 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holger Handtke]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holger_Handtke&oldid=93195229 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holle]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holle&oldid=107288905 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hollenbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hollenbach&oldid=116411700 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hollenstedt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hollenstedt&oldid=112605357 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hollstadt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hollstadt&oldid=118014955 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holtriem]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holtriem&oldid=73114395 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holy Moses]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holy_Moses&oldid=125767579 ] | importance= | date=[[May 30]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzapfelkreuth (Munich U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzapfelkreuth_%28Munich_U-Bahn%29&oldid=82971404 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzhauser Straße (Berlin U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzhauser_Stra%c3%9fe_%28Berlin_U-Bahn%29&oldid=70592801 ] | importance= | date=[[October 27]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzheim, Dillingen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzheim%2c_Dillingen&oldid=116237702 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzheim, Donau-Ries]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzheim%2c_Donau-Ries&oldid=116237671 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzkirch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzkirch&oldid=121762161 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzkirchen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzkirchen&oldid=110871591 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzmaden]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzmaden&oldid=107095787 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Holzwickede]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Holzwickede&oldid=111483194 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Homburg-Einöd]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Homburg-Ein%c3%b6d&oldid=97532738 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hopferau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hopferau&oldid=117518062 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hopsten]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hopsten&oldid=111479352 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horben]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horben&oldid=116428169 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hordel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hordel&oldid=107946435 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horgau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horgau&oldid=116427958 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horgenzell]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horgenzell&oldid=99547140 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horneburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horneburg&oldid=116188690 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horsdorf]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horsdorf&oldid=97535655 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst (Holstein)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_%28Holstein%29&oldid=112574364 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Antes]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Antes&oldid=52124212 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Bollmann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Bollmann&oldid=90209847 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Brandstätter]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Brandst%c3%a4tter&oldid=76875969 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Dassler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Dassler&oldid=76553192 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Eckel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Eckel&oldid=83174235 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Heese]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Heese&oldid=92024940 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Kummeth]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Kummeth&oldid=91637812 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Käsler]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_K%c3%a4sler&oldid=90078711 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Naumann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Naumann&oldid=90210569 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Queck]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Queck&oldid=120684266 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Sachtleben]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Sachtleben&oldid=91443340 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Schulze]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Schulze&oldid=69237076 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Sindermann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Sindermann&oldid=105405994 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Szymaniak]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Szymaniak&oldid=83424275 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst Wolter]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst_Wolter&oldid=81148190 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Horst-Ulrich Hänel]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Horst-Ulrich_H%c3%a4nel&oldid=81594381 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House Order of Hohenzollern]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_Order_of_Hohenzollern&oldid=82411892 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House of Ascania]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Ascania&oldid=108401221 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House of Luxembourg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Luxembourg&oldid=80689222 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House of Palatinate-Neumarkt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Palatinate-Neumarkt&oldid=117968688 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House of Prince (band)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Prince_%28band%29&oldid=85302383 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[House of Schwarzburg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=House_of_Schwarzburg&oldid=41296583 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hoyershausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hoyershausen&oldid=121464450 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hoßkirch]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ho%c3%9fkirch&oldid=116441356 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert Abold]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_Abold&oldid=106545062 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert Burda]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_Burda&oldid=80046336 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert Egger]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_Egger&oldid=121287729 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert Koopmann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_Koopmann&oldid=79698682 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert Schwarz]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_Schwarz&oldid=77173182 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubert von Luschka]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubert_von_Luschka&oldid=81678057 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubertus Hoffmann]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubertus_Hoffmann&oldid=132284279 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hubertus Strughold]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hubertus_Strughold&oldid=64799453 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Ball]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Ball&oldid=126545499 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Fischer-Köppe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Fischer-K%c3%b6ppe&oldid=109741126 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Grau]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Grau&oldid=91834599 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Hergesell]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Hergesell&oldid=73059477 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Häring]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_H%c3%a4ring&oldid=124402321 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Kronecker]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Kronecker&oldid=65034892 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Lederer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Lederer&oldid=74751314 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Leichtentritt]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Leichtentritt&oldid=69203578 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Preuß]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Preu%c3%9f&oldid=82452102 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Sinzheimer]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Sinzheimer&oldid=72185800 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Sonnenschein]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Sonnenschein&oldid=75111713 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Sperrle]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Sperrle&oldid=110102603 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo Wilhelm von Ziemssen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_Wilhelm_von_Ziemssen&oldid=99577682 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hugo von Pohl]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hugo_von_Pohl&oldid=54462845 ] | importance= | date=[[October 29]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Huisheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huisheim&oldid=116238100 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Humberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Humberg&oldid=107007964 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hummeltal]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hummeltal&oldid=116453012 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hundertschaft]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hundertschaft&oldid=74963291 ] | importance= | date=[[October 22]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hundeshagen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hundeshagen&oldid=97342477 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hunding]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunding&oldid=110100519 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hunger War]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunger_War&oldid=118791642 ] | importance= | date=[[April 14]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hunsrück]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hunsr%c3%bcck&oldid=113166301 ] | importance= | date=[[May 22]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hurlach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurlach&oldid=116802575 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hurra Deutschland]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurra_Deutschland&oldid=73094951 ] | importance= | date=[[May 24]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hurtgen Forest]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hurtgen_Forest&oldid=112003652 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Huy, Germany]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huy%2c_Germany&oldid=73114849 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hyperion (Hölderlin)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hyperion_%28H%c3%b6lderlin%29&oldid=92490904 ] | importance= | date=[[February 10]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[HypoVereinsbank]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HypoVereinsbank&oldid=104820226 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Häg-Ehrsberg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%a4g-Ehrsberg&oldid=118516016 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Händel-Werke-Verzeichnis]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%a4ndel-Werke-Verzeichnis&oldid=84067886 ] | importance= | date=[[October 28]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Häusern]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%a4usern&oldid=118516029 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Höchenschwand]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6chenschwand&oldid=118516063 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Höchheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6chheim&oldid=118580619 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Höchst im Odenwald]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6chst_im_Odenwald&oldid=112406923 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Höfen (Enz)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6fen_%28Enz%29&oldid=118516091 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Höllental]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6llental&oldid=101402878 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hönow]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6now&oldid=110058931 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hönow (Berlin U-Bahn)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6now_%28Berlin_U-Bahn%29&oldid=70588241 ] | importance= | date=[[October 27]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hörgertshausen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6rgertshausen&oldid=118531262 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hörnerkirchen]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6rnerkirchen&oldid=107962178 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hösbach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%b6sbach&oldid=109970361 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hügelsheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcgelsheim&oldid=116466584 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hülben]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bclben&oldid=116466562 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüllhorst]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcllhorst&oldid=111401480 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüls]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcls&oldid=100791097 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hünfelden]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcnfelden&oldid=112407600 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hünxe]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcnxe&oldid=111567097 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hürtgenwald]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcrtgenwald&oldid=111362710 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hürup]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcrup&oldid=109149374 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüseyin Kenan Aydın]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcseyin_Kenan_Ayd%c4%b1n&oldid=57357490 ] | importance= | date=[[December 7]], [[2006]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hütten, Germany]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bctten%2c_Germany&oldid=93346907 ] | importance= | date=[[March 4]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüttisheim]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcttisheim&oldid=121761991 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüttlingen, Germany]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bcttlingen%2c_Germany&oldid=118350458 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Hüzeyfe Dogan]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=H%c3%bczeyfe_Dogan&oldid=130319969 ] | importance= | date=[[May 12]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[III Corps (Germany)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=III_Corps_%28Germany%29&oldid=96889792 ] | importance= | date=[[January 27]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[IKB Deutsche Industriebank]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IKB_Deutsche_Industriebank&oldid=106474843 ] | importance= | date=[[February 26]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[ISS Dome]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ISS_Dome&oldid=79506242 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[IV SS Panzer Corps]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IV_SS_Panzer_Corps&oldid=83330046 ] | importance= | date=[[January 27]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[IX Waffen Alpine Corps of the SS (Croatian)]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IX_Waffen_Alpine_Corps_of_the_SS_%28Croatian%29&oldid=49503110 ] | importance= | date=[[January 27]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Ian Pooley]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ian_Pooley&oldid=121665204 ] | importance= | date=[[May 2]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Ibach]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ibach&oldid=115050290 ] | importance= | date=[[March 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment | page=[[Ich Zwerg]] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ich_Zwerg&oldid=100480056 ] | importance= | date=[[February 28]], [[2007]] | class={{Stub-Class}} | version= | comments= }}

{{assessment footer|seealso=See also: [[:Category:Germany articles by quality|assessed article categories]]. |lastdate=}}

<noinclude>

'''This page has been given 2 subpages for discussion. Please use these subpages to discuss Pictures, POV, or certain edit debates. If the topic you wish discuss isn't either of these, please place it under the headings provided here. Thank you. If you are looking for discussion on those two issues you posted here, look in the subpages. This page is constantly being re-organised.'''

{{process header

| title = &uarr;[[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality|(up)]]

<big>'''[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Pictures|Discussion on Pictures]]'''</big></br>

| section =

<big>'''[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/POV|Discussion on POV problems]]'''</big>

| previous = &larr; [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality/31|(prev)]]

| next = [[Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Germany articles by quality/33|(next)]] &rarr;

==Discussion about the name of the article==

| shortcut =

===Earlier discussions===

| notes =

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the name of the article]]

}}</noinclude>

**Summary: Consensus for ''2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis''.

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive3#Discussion about the name of the article]]

**Summary: Name change from ''crisis'' to ''conflict''.

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive8#Discussion about the name of the article]]

**Summary: Poll for changing the name of the article, either to war or Hezbollah.

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 11:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

===Latest Developments===

I would suggest to go from 'conflict' to 'war'. Even the IDF websites calls it a war by now.

....IDF hopes that the fighting in Lebanon against the Hezbollah terror organization will be finished quickly but at the same time is prepared, in logistics and morale, for as long a period of time as the task requires. "We are doing everything possibly to shorten the operation while still reaching the objectives we have set for ourselves," said the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Dan Halutz. IDF enjoys widespread support among the Israeli public, which backs the '''war''', feeling that there is no other choice in the matter. The Israeli home front is showing its strength and much fortitude, and there is a sensation that the public is prepared, if necessary, for the long haul.

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&docid=55050.EN --[[User:Attraho|Attraho]] 20:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

===="War" Poll====

On the question whether this conflict already constitutes a "war" or not, I would like to state the WP definition, to be found [[War|here]]. In the introduction of this article a "war" is defined as follows: <br/ >

''War is a conflict involving the organized use of weapons and physical force by states or other large-scale groups. Warring parties usually hold territory, which they can win or lose; and each has a leading person or organization which can surrender, or collapse, thus ending the war. Until the end of World War II, participants usually issued formal declaration of war''. ''Other terms for war, often used euphemistically, include armed conflict, hostilities, and police action [...].'' <br/ >

In order to get a clear view on the question of going from "conflict" to "war" we should do another poll. --[[User:Attraho|Attraho]] 10:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose "War"''' (''State your reasons for opposing the renaming of this article as a war. Sign your entry.'')

#'''Oppose'''.

*'''Support "War"''' (''State your reasons for supporting the renaming of this article as a war. Sign your entry.'')

#'''Support'''. There is definately territory(that is the issue in here), both Israel and Hizbollah can surrender, and/or collapse. And since this is after WWII, no declaration is needed.

====Including Hezbollah in the name====

'''I would include the name of Hezbollah in the title for four reasons:'''

1) They instigated the conflict

2) They are one of the primary military force currently engaged

3) This is not a war between two soverign countries as the title suggests

4) While they are part of the Lebanon government, thier military arm has seperate command and control

--[[user:mnw2000]] 00:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I agree. It should be Israel-Hizbollah_conflict, Lebanon has little to do with it. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about the Combatants==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the Combatants]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive3#Discussion about the Combatants]]; Summary:

**Discussion about manpower of each actor.

**Earlier discussion about Iran.

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive4#Discussion about the Combatants]]; Summary:

**Discussion about Lebanon.

**Discussion about Hezbollah.

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive8#Discussion about the Combatants]]: Summary;

**Is Iran a combatant?

Jihad Watch: Iranian Revolutionary Guards killed in Lebanon, flown back to Iran via Syria

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/012359.php

===Missing an important point===

One of the most notable features of this conflict so far has been the speed with which complex geopolitical theories to explain the situation have appeared in the mass media. Nobody can prove that Iran and Syria are or are not involved in the conflict at this stage, and wikipedia should certainly not attempt to "determine the truth" of those claims. What is undeniable however is that a multitude of US commentators and politicians have been promoting the ''idea'' that Iran and Syria are the true villains of the piece. That point is not currently being made in the article, and I think it's a serious oversight. &#0151;&nbsp;[[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] 16:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

===Unsourced claim about Iran===

Under Casualties/Foreign nationals it says "Between six and nine Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers have been killed by Israeli forces." There is a source where this is claimed [http://www.nysun.com/article/36557], but this is a very sensational piece of news, which shouldn't be hidden in this section if it was confirmed. But we must remember that [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence|exceptional claims require exceptional evidence]], and this has not been reported by more well reputed sources. The beginning of the article doesn't really look convincing "The bodies of Iranian Revolutionary Guard soldiers killed by the Israeli army in Lebanon have been transported to Syria and flown to Tehran, senior Lebanese political sources said. Israeli and Egyptian security officials confirmed the news." Would Lebanese "political sources" and "Egyptian security officials" really speak of such confidential stuff to a small American newspaper? I'm removing the sentence above. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 00:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

===Fourth Combatant===

Now that the U.N. troops on the group are being targeted, they are part of this conflict. Since they are supposed to stay neutral, I think the only option is to add a fourth combatant column in the info box. Thanks. [[User:Logicaldisaster|Logicaldisaster]] 23:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:Maybe, but I don't think it's a good idea. The infobox is already too wide.--[[User:Jyril|JyriL]] <sup style="font-size:x-small">[[User Talk:Jyril|talk]]</sup> 00:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Put the Hezbollah and Lebanon in one box,after all even if Lebanon is doing only anti-aircraft warfare they are still helping the Hezbollah this way or another,so then you will have room for the U.N. forces.They should be distinguesed from Israel and Lebanon.

Maybe nother seperate box for casualties of international organizes that can include UN and the Red Cross..?--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:: UN forces can get shot at and blown up more so but unless they are taking potshots at Israeli planes/troops, they are not combatants. List the UN casualties as you would any other people not directly involved - by country. At least until it is cited/proved that Israel is targeting UN folks on the ground in Lebanon. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 12:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The UN observers should not be listed as Lebanese casualties. [[User:Geedubber|Geedubber]] 02:42, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

==Reported Events/Supposed Events==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Reported Events/Supposed Events]]

**Summary: Effects on Oil Price, First Shots.

===Israel Massing troops===

Sorry if this is already on the talk page - I didn't see it.

Israel is calling up reserves and massing troops on the border. We can probably expect a ground invasion soon. [http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/22/mideast/index.html Source]

==Discussion about casualties==

==Israel soldiers killed==

Why is an Israeli Jew; '''Avraham;''' in control of this topic on Wikipedia ?

Now I know this is going to be changed everytime by Israeli when I add it to the article so I am also posting it here: [http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281480,00.html] 13 Israeli soldiers killed. Also I would like to not that the Hezbollah site (if you count the casualties) amounts to 13 and not "27", it seems people just add to it without reason. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 10:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)'''

::As I said, Israeli's would remove the added dead soldiers. Now there are even more dead [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060726/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=Ao0ERdefwnEDDyf13RptM32s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-] Just remember that no matter what you do, the outcome of this fight will not change by you lying on this article. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 16:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)'''

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive8#Discussion about Casualties]]

*Summary:

**Israeli casualties

**Earlier discussions

**Displaced Israelis

**Other

**Civilian vs Military casualities

**Regarding hiding the reported number of Lebanese civilians killed

**"Report of Attack on Canadians Unconfirmed"

**possible solution to the "civilians" edit war

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 11:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

====Civilian casualties====

Currently the Lebanese civilian casualty count in our article is 306. The [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13929959/ MSNBC article] cited says "At least 306 people have been killed in Lebanon since Israel’s campaign began, according to Lebanese officials. At least 29 Israelis have been killed, including 14 soldiers." Is there some reason that we are assuming that all 306 are civilians? I'm going to change it to an admittedly inferior formulation lacking the civilian qualifier. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 21:28, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

:I've subtracted the 24 soldiers from the 306 total number given, though the sources cited for Lebanese military casualties weren't clear. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 21:57, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Casualties Info Box'''. The civilians/military deaths listed in the casualties info box needs to be reordered to be consistent across all 3 sections.

Ugh, also, why is the 'civilians' section in Lebanon continually being renamed to 'Other:'? What do you think they are?

:Nevermind, I see the info posted in the changelist; I still don't think 'Other' is an appropriate term though.. would be nice to get some better figures.

::Accuracy is more important than consistency. We should not say that all the casualties in Lebanon were civilians, it simply isn't true. Surely some of Israel's airstrikes have hit Hizbollah members, after all most of them are directed at that organization. In fact, the cited article and several others that I have read do not specify that all the casualties were civilians, they say the total number of casualties and note that many or the majority were civilians. [[User:GabrielF|GabrielF]] 23:11, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You are obviously biased as an Israeli [[User:GabrielF|GabrielF]]. All your changes are based on your own assumptions. The media talks of civilians, soldiers (as in Lebanese soldiers) or Hezbollah militants. We will keep it like that. [[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 23:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

:First, I'm not an Israeli and you need to keep in mind [[WP:NPA]], second, please read the source before you assume you know what it says. This is what the source actually says: "As the death toll rose to 330 in Lebanon as well as at least 31 Israelis," - 330 TOTAL casualties is not the same as 330 CIVILIAN casualties. This is from the BBC: "The nine-day offensive has killed at least 306 people and displaced an estimated 500,000 in Lebanon. There are increasing concerns for displaced Lebanese civilians. The fighting has left 31 Israelis dead, including 15 civilians killed by rockets fired by Hezbollah into Israel." Again, referring to total casualties, not civilian casualties. NOBODY knows the total number of civilian casualties. [[User:GabrielF|GabrielF]] 23:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

::However there are numerous reports regarding how many of these numbers are civilians, which you of course know, but that does not fit your agenda.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 02:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Guys, the "at least 355" is a very good method of approaching the Lebanese civilian death count, but none of the cited sources ([http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1968721,00.html], [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel;_ylt=Ait1paVKa6HbIkP2CymNhaWs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--], [http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200607/200607200001.html]) say that. I am regretfully removing the "civilians" qualification until such time as we either have a documented minimal number and/or list the total and documented civilian numbers separately. Sorry, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 03:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

"The civilians/military deaths listed in the casualties info box needs to be reordered to be consistent across all 3 sections."--I think this is a very important point. The info box is rarely in sync with what is said later in the article. It would be one thing to have the info box say something like "varied reports between x number and y number of casualties" and then to elaborate on that in the casualties section, but more often than not the info box shows one figure and then the casualties section shows a completely different figure. This is really confusing and needs to be changed.--[[User:172.145.122.194|172.145.122.194]] 06:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Warship is not a casualty! ===

If warship is a casualty, the why wodn't you wright there every single israely tank and Hezbollah's rocket launcher?

:Got it. [[User:El C|El_C]] 17:10, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

We have already agreed that it should be listed per wikiconvention; please see the "warship" section of the archive. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 17:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the warship should be removed from the casualty list,if not at least take in to consideration to include the two Israeli tanks and an armored bulldozer that were destroyed,two Apache helicopters that were lost and one more tank that was damaged.Alright? [[User:Top gun|Top gun]] 5:17, 24 july 2006

:Tewfik, where we draw the line? Artillery batteries? Katyusha launchsites? Also, could you link for me the wikiconventions bit? Thanks. [[User:El C|El_C]] 03:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review [[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Equipment losses: tanks, warships, etc.]]. The discussion notes that this is a conventional practice on conflict articles, and applies just to naval vessels. Cheers, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 04:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:Fair enough. I'll try to catch up on it soon. [[User:El C|El_C]] 04:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I read Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Equipment losses: tanks, warships, etc

and I still think that the warship should be removed from the casualties list, but another info box should be added in which the tanks, helicopters and warship should be put under a name like Israeli military equipment loses, c'mon a warship is not a casualty.[[User:Top gun|Top gun]] 6:44, 24 july 2006

I think we are being dogmatic in the approach to conventions, as most of the wars that do list warships as casualties where wars where naval battles where fought, which is not the case in this conflict. (Nevertheless, the user above is wrong, Warships are traditionally counted as casualties of war, as are other forms of hardware as tanks, planes, and artillery pieces.)

I think it should be removed for this reason: I doubt we will see any major naval engagements in this conflict, and the ship was not sunken. It is basically a footnote and not really relevant.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 05:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Cerejota has just said what I have been saying, remove the warship,but OK if you do not want to,at least add the two helicopters,even maybe a third as I hear today that another crashed, and also the two tanks and the bulldozer that were destroyed, and the tank that was damaged.

[[User:Top gun|Top gun]] 12:55, 24 july 2006

===Casualty figures===

Two more IDF ***************terrorists************** died today, along with two ****************Terror************* IAF pilots;

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280804,00.html

How come AL-Jazeera knew this already in the morning and Israeli news agencies are confirming the dead just minutes ago ?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280804,00.html

WTF??!?!?!? ISraeli terrorist is that something new?!?!?!?!

YNET says 1,300 people have visisted hospitals, but the bulk are for shock. Since the information on injuries from Lebanon only mentions injured by direct trauma (the traditional definition of [[casualty (person)|casualty]]), perhaps we should be careful when citing the number who visited hospitals as the "injured" figure. I will edit accordingly, substracting the number of people treated for shock to come up with the true number of reported injured.

This is NOT a POV issue but one of balance: you cannot compare apples and oranges, and since no figures are available for people trated for shock in Lebanon, including then for the israeli side gives the impression they are the same type of injured, when sources in fact say they are not. If we can find a source listing the Lebanese treated for shock, then we can included the Israeli too.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 04:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:How do you know what the Lebanese numbers count (We are not even clear on what the fatality numbers mean)? This sounds like it could easily become [[WP:OR]]. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 05:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::And just FYI, Ynet is an '''extremely''' biased source, so taking grains of NaCl is advised. +[[User:ILike2BeAnonymous|ILike2BeAnonymous]] 05:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems inappropriate to me to even mention the 875 israelis having been treated for shock, since no such data is mentioned for the Lebanese. PJ 06:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The point is that it is likely that the Lebanese casualty figures include people treated for shock as well.- [[User:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg]] | [[User talk:Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg|Talk]] 06:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:Looking at foreigners killed only, we find an initial statistical ratio of 20 to 1 between Lebanon and Israel. This ratio is corrobated by the claimed number of civilians killed (353/17 ~= 20/1) Then there is an odd discrepancy in the number of civilian casualties: Israel claims their ratio between wounded/dead to be about 24 to 1, whereas Lebanon only claims a ratio of 3 to 1. I would believe that, given the cruel but unbiased properties of a bomb-blast, the 3:1 figure is likely to be serious casualties (hospitalized, missing legs etc) and the 24:1 figure includes lighter wounds (scrubs, broken arms etc). In any case it is very unlikely that the Lebanese casualties includes treatments for shock!

:Moving on to displaced persons, the relation of 20 to 1 can be restored if we assume that the "tens of thousinds" is supposed to mean around 40000 ...

:[[User:MX44|MX44]] 10:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I concede that we cannot rule out the possibility that the Lebanese casuality figure does not include people being treated for shock. However, given the present situation, I take it to be quite unlikely that the hospitals treat people for mere shock. But again, until we have relevant info, I concede the point. PJ 13:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see any problem either way including the shock figure or not. It is a report by a news source and is part of what is going on. As for what kind of bias it shows, I think that can go either way. Some people may look at the Lebanese side and wonder think things are biased because nobody bother to count shock on that side. Some may look at the shock figure and think, "gee they're really hamming it up for all its worth".--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 03:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi all, I am one of the writers in the German version of this topic. I saw two inaccuracies concerning the casualities of other nations. The statement, that the four members of the Mönchengladbach family dies is wrong. The 11yo. son survived, the 14yo. daughter, teh 30 yo. pregant wife and the father died.

Source: [http://www.wz-newsline.de/sro.php?redid=121602 Westdeutsche Zeitung Online: Tödlicher Urlaub im Libanon], 15. July 2006. --[[User:213.155.224.232|213.155.224.232]] 18:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest leaving it as it is for the moment (including "shock"). Since we have no information on how Lebanon counts their casualties. Either that or add the "shock" number into total injured. I prefer the former. --[[User:Bingman06|Bingman06]] 03:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:An addendum: The number of displaced is listed as tens of thousands. Is there a solid number or estimation we can use? I have read reports that hundreds of thousands are in bomb shelters (somewhere between 200,000-1,000,000). Is that considered displacement? Thanks. --[[User:Bingman06|Bingman06]] 03:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

====Lebanese Casualties====

The New York Times is reporting that the casualties being reported by the Lebanese government do not distinguish between civilian and Hezbollah. The [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/23/world/middleeast/23cnd-mideast.html?ei=5065&en=c5ae71ef89ee473f&ex=1154318400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print New York Times article] stated, "The deaths brought the toll to at least 380, Lebanese authorities said. Lebanon does not differentiate between civilian deaths and the deaths of Hezbollah fighters. The Israeli military says it has killed more than 100 Hezbollah fighters." This seems to make the previous issue on Lebanese casualties a little clearer and hopefully brings us closer to an accurate and acceptable solution. Icarus 9:10, July 24 2006 (UTC)

:Right now the figure of 353 on the page is not even in the cited article. I had cited one source that indicated that over 300 "people" have been killed and indicated 300 were civilians. This NYT article makes it more important now to have something accurate in the infobox, though I still think it would be unacceptable to omit any mention of civilians there. A good temporary solution now might be to include many citations, and last I checked most said something along the lines of "3XX killed, mostly civilians" or "almost all civilians" or "mainly civilians". If we do that, stating something like "~250" under the civilians heading seems acceptable to me, perhaps followed by "~100 of unconfirmed status" or something like that.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:I applaud your efforts in light of the volatility of the casualty figures from source to source. I'm also not sure of the make up between civilian and militant casualties. On one hand the focus of the military campaign seems to be Hexbollah, however there is certainly a significant level of collateral damage incurred. Hezbollah, which does not release their losses, has only confirmed 3 casualties but various media and military sources have put their losses as high as over 100. Perhaps for the time being we should describe the casualty figure as "Lebanese civilian and militant" rather than relying on our own speculation. -- Icarus 11:51, July 25 2006 (UTC)

===Attacks on UNIFIL===

I made the hezbollah and IDF attacks on UNIFIL section but someone removed the hezbollah attack that was reported by al-jazeera [http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/CAC26504-558A-4814-81A3-720B1030B04F.htm]

:How will the UN peacekeeper casulaties be incorperated into the infobox? – [[User:Zntrip|Zntrip]] 03:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::I thought there were 2 dead and 2 missing UNIFIL. Has this been updated to 4 dead? [[User:Fcyoss|Fcyoss]] 07:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::It's not too clear.. a quick search showed that most recent (<1 hour) stories are saying 4 dead.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::: This answers the question - [http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/index.html] --[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 08:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::thanks.[[User:Fcyoss|Fcyoss]] 14:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Someone removed all the UNIFIL casualties which were reported except for the 4 killed on 25 July. I guess wounded dont count in the 'casualties' section :)

:::It got moved and I didnt notice- sorry. Added in detail on the dead UN staff member the IDF killed on 17th July- they recovered his body along with his wife's body on 26th July

Dear Friends,

It should be noted that Olmert apologized for UN observers’ death but also '''criticized Annan for his statement''' that Israel deliberately attacks UN posts. Also, Danny Gillerman, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, said he was '''shocked and deeply distressed by the hasty statement by the secretary general''' insinuating that Israel has deliberately targeted the UN post at Khiam and surprised at these premature and erroneous assertions.

Link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281510,00.html

P.S.

The comment was supposed to be posted here and not below.

[[User:Vinyl Driver|Vinyl Driver]] 10:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Missing from the casualties section ===

Al-Jazira reported from Israeli military officials and from Hizbullah that several Israeli tanks were destroyed in the last ground operations made by Israeli ground forces. I don't know the exact number though, but it should be checked and included. [[User:Sherif9282|Sherif9282]]

Dear Friends,

It should be noted that Olmert apologized for UN observers’ death but also '''criticized Annan''' for his statement that Israel deliberately attacks UN posts. Also, Danny Gillerman, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, said he was shocked and deeply distressed by the hasty statement by the secretary general insinuating that Israel has deliberately targeted the UN post at Khiam and surprised at these premature and erroneous assertions.

Link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281510,00.html

[[User:Vinyl Driver|Vinyl Driver]] 10:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about whether it is a war==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about whether it is a war]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about whether it is a war]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about whether it is a war]]

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 19:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

*Summary of previous discussions: [...] Wikipedia is an encyclopedia: we cannot engage in [[WP:OR|original research]] and must back all claims with [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Until such time that "war" becomes widely accepted as a description of this specific event, we cannot call it that. Happy editing, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 19:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/ I hope this site will be of help to those that are blinded by their government. I am glad to see that these members of "HezbAllah" are been punished. Shame on You! Shame on the United States! Shame on Israel! Shame on the silent! Please, do not call "HezbAllah" terrorists because with such acts you will demonstrate that you are as uninformed as our hypocrite and ignorant President George W. Bush.--[[User:68.77.163.115|68.77.163.115]] 04:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)USA

Would it be more accurate to refer to Hezbollah as mafia? Or radical Islamic militants?

:Doesn't the UN recognize them as a terrorist organization, I know there is a resolution from long ago telling them to disarm? --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about the captured soldiers==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the captured soldiers]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about the captured soldiers]] (most notable the discussion whether to call the two soldiers "captured" or "kidnapped". ''Almost'' general consensus that "captured" is a better term. Reasons: (1) more widely used in the media coverage of the event, (2) is considered a more neutral term (i.e. less POV)) - See also [[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive3#Discussion about POV]] for a similar discussion. Note that there is also a discussion about whether to use "captured" or "abducted". See above.

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Discussion about the captured soldiers]]

**Hezbollah and Israeli viewpoints DIFFER

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive8#Discussion about the captured soldiers]]

**Captured soldiers weren't on Israel territory?

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 19:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

----

Tewfik again without discussion and against consensus has changed from "captured" to "abducted". Please Tewfik, be aware this is a salomonic choice, I am not happy with capture either, but it is as close as an NPOV we will get. You are fast becoming a vandal in my eyes...--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 03:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

*the intro looked fine to me, why did you remove the fact that "Samir kuntar" is a murderer? and instead trying to relegate this fact to some dark corner of the article? as it is 90% of the people in the world have no idea of what this whole war is about... most of them think that this guy that hezbollocks wants freed is a nice friendly neighbourhood ice-cream man? this guy killed a 4-year old by smashing her head with a rifle butt against a rock. FYI [[User:Hellznrg|Shakespeare Monkey]] 22:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

===Cross Border Raids===

There has been some wrather POV manipulation of facts going on in some main stream media about the ignighting incident. Isreal would claim that H. invaded isreal and 'kidnapped' the soldiers. H. would argue they 'arrested' two soldiers occupying Lebenon. Just like wikipedia uses 'capture' to try to remain NPOV, the description of the ___location should also attempt to remain NPOV. As it stands, the intro paragraph describes the action as a 'cross border raid' which, while true, misleads the reader into thinking that hesbolah crossed into isreali territory, as opposed to disputed syrian territory which isreal controlls. The intro paragraph should explain this in a little more detail.

:Actually the raid took place in undisputed territory (relatively) far from the Syrian frontier (and not the [[Shebaa Farms]] area). Cheers, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 15:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

::What are your sources for the ___location? What about the reports by the Lebanese police that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Aitaa al-Chaab? [[User:213.79.34.59|213.79.34.59]] 20:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I separated the report from Lebanese police/hezbollah of an infiltration into Aitaa al-Chaab from the rest of the paragraph- this makes it clear that the facts of the initial capture is disputed. A timeline of the claims made would probably help.

::::And someone just removed it all. Snowjob.

===captured?===

Tewfik again without discussion and against consensus has changed from "captured" to "abducted". Please Tewfik, be aware this is a salomonic choice, I am not happy with capture either, but it is as close as an NPOV we will get. You are fast becoming a vandal in my eyes...--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 03:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

it says captured but the correct term is POW or prisoner of war {{unsigned2|23:10, 21 July 2006|68.41.195.26}}

:If Osama bin Laden kidnaps you, would you consider yourself a POW? Remember, war had not even started yet, since there isn't even an official declaration of war (as required by the Geneva Conventions). --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 15:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

::The Geneva Conventions explicitly say they apply equally to undeclared wars. When was the last time a major world power declared war? And the war or "conflict" starts with the first act of war or "conflict" such as an attack on enemy soldiers.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 00:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::If I were a soldier, yes.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 15:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Remember, war has not started yet, you call him a Prisoner of '''War'''? Wrong context. And, they're '''terrorists''', not even proper participants. Does that mean Israel has a 58 year-long war lasting from 1948? Cause there's not been a single year without violence. --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 15:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::*You might be on to something here. One could see this conflict as part of an ongoing civil-war between two groups of Palestine inhabitants. [[User:MX44|MX44]] 04:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I'd suggest you read [[Prisoner of War]] before commenting. --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 15:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Conflict has started, regardless targetting of soldiers is capturing. also note that civilians killed is not called murder anywhere in the article, other than quotes from involved parties. the article doesn't call them all terrorists. Yeah I read the entry on POV, perhaps you should re-read it. - "who is imprisoned by an enemy power during or immediately after an armed conflict". This is a conflict. And nice try on the 58 year old war rhetoric.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 15:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Remember, soldiers are people too. These soldiers were just doing their job, just like if you were doing your job, and suddenly, out of nowhere, they were abducted. It's different if there's a formal declaration of war or a state of open war, but these guys were just sitting in a border camp and were taken out of the blue. --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;cursor:w-resize;">'''Cyde?Weys'''</span>]] 15:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:There is nothing about the word "capture" that does not suggest they are not people. Yes, out of nowhere, as if by aliens visiting earth for the first time. And just as if I were doing my job, say I don't know, making biscuits. Making biscuits is about on the same level as border patrol.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 15:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, it should be just like making biscuits if there is no war. The point is that Hezbollah specifically stated that the aim of the operation was to take these soldiers, they weren't captured incedental to combat. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 16:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

::I diagree that soldiers on border patrol should not be significantly more expected to be the tartget of an attack, be it killing or capture, than civilians.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 16:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:: What is the source that states there was a Hezbollah "operation" to capture these soldiers in Israel? Were they not captured during an Israeli operation in Lebanon? See references to Aitaa al-Chaab / Aaita ech Chaab above. [[User:Davidoc|David O&#39;C]] 20:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Aliens and Biscuits aside, it is not as though there was a peace agreement. Soldiers are soldiers, if Hezballah started the conflict by capture, right or wrong, attacking/capturing a soldier is an act of war, if it is an act of war, then it is capture, if it involved a civilian, it's an act of terrorism. Remember, even terrorist group CAN do both. [[User:Angrynight|Angrynight]] 01:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:Countries declare wars, terrorist groups cannot. Hezbollah is a terrorist group and as such as was required to be disarmed some time ago by the United Nations. These soldiers were not captured as can be seen by Hezbollahs own actions in violation of the Geneva Convention. Captured soldiers have rights and cannot have their lives threatened, these soldiers were obviously abducted, but I have made this arguement before. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 12:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, you've made this "argument" before, and it's just as much a non sequitur then as now. When Hezbollah captured those soldiers (of a GC III signatory, no less), they undertook a responsibility to treat them accordingly. If they fail to do so, then Hezbollah can be said to have violated the GCIII -- called a "war crime". '''But any such violations, had they occurred, in no way change the status of the captured soldiers'''. At least that's how it would go if logic had a place here. Instead, we have "policies": since we are to slavishly follow the external concensus no matter how stupid or contrary to the plain, obvious facts and trivial deductions made therefrom (cf. "war" vs. "conflict" in the archives), then the words "kidnapped" and "abducted" and similar ''must be used in this article'', as they clearly dominate in the references used by the article. [[User:Mdf|mdf]] 14:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Hezbollah isnt a signatory of the Geneva Convention, they do not operate under any guidelines of the Geneva Convention, they are group of people the UN calls a terrorist group. They cannot take prisoners as they are not an army, they abduct people because they are a band of terrorists. You try so hard to have it treated like Hezbollah is a military, they are a terrorist group in the eyes of the world. The country they operate in does not acknowledge them and was told by the United Nations to disarm them. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 11:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that where they were taken also matters for this discussion. They were taken from inside Israel and so abducted is more appropriate. IF they had been inside of Lebanon they would have been captured. They were soldiers. But they were not engaged in any action against or in Lebanon. They were "home." If they had been seized out of their beds in downtown tel-aviv I think most readers would agree that they were abducted and not captured. {{unsigned}}

I would like to suggest that perhaps the proper terminology is that the Israeli soldiers were taken hostage. Neither captured (which seems to be closer connected to prisoners of war which are generally troops who are defeated and not killed, or who surrender), nor abducted (which seems to infer a kidnapping from one's innocent bed, as mentioned above) cover what happened between Hezbollah and Israel. Hezbollah took the soldiers with the specific purpose of holding them on the condition that their demands (the release of Lebanese prisoners in Israel) were met. This is a hostage taking with demands, not a capture in war time, or an abduction of civilians. For example: the 1972 Munich massacre of Israeli atheletes is considered by wiki to be a hostage taking because the hostage takers demanded a release of palestinian prisoners held in Israel.--[[User:Axgoss|Axgoss]] 01:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

===Excuse me but Israel was the one that crossed the border===

Please look up where the ISraeli soilders were captured...it was in South Lebanon.

Check

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24913&hd=0&size=1&l=e

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=FRA20060725&articleId=2813

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html

http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html

http://uruknet.info/?p=m25034&hd=0&size=1&l=e

http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

I also want you to note that the Israeli media has proven to be censored and used for propaganda purposes...all their reports of advancement into Lebanon have turned out to be bogus, plus their claims of a Saudi fatwa against Hezbollah.

Thank you...please change the article.

[[User:69.196.164.190|69.196.164.190]]

:We'll get right on that. Our rate is $150/hr. Or you can do it yourself.

:The forbes link, which would be the most credible source in that list, does not say anything about the soldiers being captured in South Lebanon.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Actually two of those sites are world famous for their work, by leading experts and adacemics. Two of those links also had other links on them, plus one of the verifications is The Agence France-Presse (AFP), one of the three largest news agencies in the world...not to mention the Associated Press and the Hindustan Times.

[[User:69.196.164.190|69.196.164.190]]

::Is the AFP article where it says "fr.news.yahoo 7/12/06]", because that link seems to be bad. If it's the french one, then I apologize, I don't read French that well, but it doesn't attribute the article to AFP. Also The Hindustan Times link from "whatreallyhappened" does not appear to be good anymore - "http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1742306,00050004.htm". While global research may do some good research, the articles seem more op-ed, no?--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Also note this entry does make mention of this account, see "According to Lebanon".--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 08:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

: Excuse me 69.196.164.190, but you are wrong. The identity of the soldiers who were captured puts the lie to all those articles, as they are reservists and not members of any elite unit. [[User:Cymruisrael|Cymruisrael]] 08:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Global Research is a blog, its a self published website by Michael Chov(whatever) and therefore fails WP:RS. Furthermore he is not a journalist nor expert in the field, his expertise is economics. Urukunet? What really happened? seems like forbes is the only realistic link you have up there. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 10:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The Hindustan Times is quoting a (now archived) IANS story (go [http://www.eians.com/searchpanel.php here] and search for "Nabatiyeh" within the last 30 days to see the intro) which seems to have come originally from [[Deutsche Presse-Agentur|dpa]]. [http://www.newkerala.com/news3.php?action=fullnews&id=21653 Here]'s another version. &#0151;&nbsp;[[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] 08:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've just noticed it's already referenced in the article: #29. &#0151;&nbsp;[[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] 08:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I think I was the one who added that reference, actually.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 08:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

These sources are horrible, and are not to be trusted. You cannot expect "whatreallyhappened.com" to be a credible source for anything.

Here are some other sources.

*{{cite news|url=http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0D17FD35540C708DDDAE0894DE404482|title=TURMOIL IN THE MIDEAST: ESCALATION; Clashes Spread to Lebanon as Hezbollah Raids Israel|date=[[2006-07-13]]|publisher=[[NYTimes]]}}

*{{cite web|url=http://en.g8russia.ru/docs/21.html|title=Middle East|date=[[2006-07-16]]}}

*{{cite news|url=http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CEC68E6-3CEF-4E1B-907B-EF4B8F4D5585.htm|title=Lebanon divided over Hezbollah raid|date=[[2006-07-14]]|publisher=[[Al Jazeera]]}}

*{{cite news|url=http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/mideast.diplomacy/index.html|title= U.N. chief calls for immediate cease-fire|date=[[2006-07-21]]|publisher=[[CNN]]}}

*{{cite news|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5173078.stm|title=Hezbollah warns Israel over raids|date=[[2006-07-12]]|publisher=[[BBC]]}}

BBC+CNN+Al Jazeera+G8+NYTimes >>> a blogger, a proffessor, and "whatreallyhappened.com"

--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 21:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about weapon types==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about weapon types]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about weapon types]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about weapon types]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Discussion about weapon types]]

**Terminology between rocket and missile

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 19:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Claims of incendiary bomb use on civilians by Israeli forces ===

As it stands this section is very one-sided. What factual base do these claims have, if any? Has Israel responded to these serious allegations at all? If so, what'd it say? If not so, then why? If we were to include any single claim made by this side about the other without any need for it to be substantiated, the article would very soon become bloated with psychological warfare and propaganda. --[[User:AceMyth|AceMyth]] 02:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:The President of Lebanon is a pretty important (though I'm not going to say reliable) source. Thats enough to get it mentioned. I'll see if I can find the Israeli comment, but I can guess what it's going to say already.--[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 02:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::I've added the sentence "President Lahoud's claims remain unverified" to the article to help with NPOV. Hopefully that will help. [[User:OldSkoolGeek|OldSkoolGeek]] 03:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:White phosphorus is a very common incendiary (not chemical) weapon, and its use is ''not'' illegal. The only international agreement which regulates it is the "Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons", 1980. Protocol III of that covers "Prohibitions or Restrictions on use of Incendiary Weapons." In short, you can't use incendiaries to attack civilians, or military targets in the middle of a concentration of civilians such as an inhabited city or refugee camp (unless you have a reasonable expectation that the military target can be hit without hitting the civilian concentration). Israel has not signed that treaty (neither have Lebanon or Syria for example), but I believe they are essentially complying with its terms. [[User:ObsidianOrder|ObsidianOrder]] 03:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:I think it's got about as much factual base as most of the other claims by government officials in the article. You're right that it could get bloated. It think these kinds of claims should be limited to high ranking officials on both sides. The possibility that Israel is using these weapons and had bad luck with targeting is not that far fetched. That they intentionally used them on civilians seems much less likely, but consider that nearly all conflicts of this size or larger have atrocities of this kind which get found out years later. It shouldn't be anymore surprising if it turns out to be intentional than it was to learn of the atrocities committed in Vietnam or Iraq by US forces. Of course these statements could turn out to discredit the Lebanese government, and if so, so be it. --[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 03:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::The usage of the words "claim" and "allege" are used to have a cynical effect on stating facts, meaning that one side "claims" it, but it is not corrobarated with any other sources. So it is a cynical way of stating facts in the first place, lol! --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 04:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:::OMG ROFL!!!! OBVIOUZORS INVADED!!! SOMEONE SET US UP THE NPOV!! +10 wiki points to Terrancommander's POV!!! TAKE OFF EVERY {{fact}}!!--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 04:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The use of weaponized white phosphorus ''does'' count as a chemical weapon. I'd be surprised if Israel had actually done that (well, not ''that'' surprised, the U.S. used it against Fallujah, maybe they're just getting the idea form us). Anyway, I'd like to see a less biased source than the leader of the nation being attacked. Remember the Iraqi Information Minister saying how they were totally winning the fight while in actuality Iraq was being overrun by American forces? It's the same for any leader of the country. It's their ''job'' to say whatever is necessary to continue to bolster strength and garner international support. Because he has ''everything'' to lose. --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;cursor:w-resize;">'''Cyde↔Weys'''</span>]] 04:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:Cyde, I'm not entirely sure what makes you think that WP counts as a chemical weapon. Have you ever handled the stuff? It is extremely flammable, but the fumes are not more noxious than the fumes of many other burning substances, like tires or common plastics. And it has been used both as an obscurant and incendiary in mass quantities ever since WW2. Was it "chemical weapons" back then? [[User:ObsidianOrder|ObsidianOrder]] 06:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:P.S. there is no such thing as "weaponised" WP - WP is just WP. The use of the word in this case is clearly intended to draw a parallel between WP and chem/bio weapons which are commonly described as "weaponised". That's completely bogus, don't fall for it. [[User:ObsidianOrder|ObsidianOrder]] 07:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting to note that the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, Article 2, prohibits incendiary weapons OTHER THAN THOSE DELIVERED BY AIR, which the Israeli WP undoubtedly is. Sneaky, that. [[User:Khaighle|Khaighle]] 19:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:might want to read again :

<blockquote>

# It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.

# It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

</blockquote>

:Yes, sneaky that Zer0faults omitted the first part. [http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm]--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 22:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I actually meant that the text of the treaty itself was sneaky, in that the states concerned had exempted themselves from sanction when fire-bombing civilians from the air, but I now gather that's not the case. My bad. --[[User:Khaighle|Khaighle]] 23:56, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:I had to read it literally three times to understand that part. And I'm not completely sure - what it means is that when the incendiary weapons are not air-delivered, then it is ok, but so long as a lot of precautions are taken, right? I imagine the idea being that by air, such precautions are not as reliable, but on the ground they are, so they allow use?--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 00:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I think a quick-and-dirty translation from legalese would be "don't set things on fire, unless 1) you do it from the ground 2) they're military targets and 3) you're super-careful not to set any civilian things on fire at the same time." And yes, the logic would be that it's much more difficult to avoid "collateral damage" when bombing from the air.--[[User:Khaighle|Khaighle]] 00:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Well, that's assuming they're not deliberately targeting civilians, which they are. That's quite illegal in itself. --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 07:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::If you have any citations that can prove your statement beyond doubt, please share them.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=== US bombs ===

I've removed the extensive discussion of US aid to Israel as it either is not directly relevant to this conflict, or is repeated elsewhere. The only passage which should probably stay is the following, though I'm not sure where/how to include it:

<nowiki>Although it has not been publicly announced, "[t]he Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hizbollah targets in Lebanon, The New York Times reported on Saturday [July 22, 2006]." <ref name="Reu 2006-07-22">{{cite news |url= http://today.reuters.com/News/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-07-22T050649Z_01_N21268027_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-BUSH-WEAPONS.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-2 |publisher=Reuters |title=Headlines for July 19, 2006 |date=July 19, 2006}}</ref></nowiki>

Cheers, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 05:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Tewfik: it as relevant to this article as having a special section on the Hizbollah rocket response to Israeli attacks, or discussing Hezbollah's funding by Iran. The funding of Israel on the part of the US is required for balance. The paragraph is well sourced, and presented in an NPOV voice.

Now, I do object its inclusion on the same grounds I object the Iran funding of Hezbollah. It is discussed in other background articles, and it predates the current conflict. THis article is meant to be an introduction to the current conflict, and its related subpages. Not an in depth discussion of the Arab-Israeli conflict at large, for which there is not only a page, but a pretty through template with links to most major actors and events.

The quality of this page has been reduced, and its NPOV compromised because of efforts by POV editors, such as yourself, who fail to understand what makes a good wikipedia article as per [[Wikipedia:PERFECT]] as a guide. Rather than being '''[[WP:BB|bold]]''' in editing most people are being rude and not discussing or raising issues. Furthermore it is obvious the article hasn't been NPOV for a few days yet you an others continue to remove the tag.

This article is now in general from a good example of a manageable article to a mish mash of POV, a total lack of logical organization, an unmanageable lenght and total disregard for the existence of relevant subarticles.

You allege to not want these things but by pushing your POV you are indeed engaging in its destruction. Only thing you have going on for you is that you have the courage and decency to use the talk pages. And that except for an initial attempt at harrasment, you have been civil.-- [[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 11:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:I wish you would cease your unfounded claims of my supposed harassment, and that you would stop making broad statements about my supposed POV edits. Especially as in this case, it seems you don't actually disagree with my edit. I again say that if you have a problem with any specific edit I make, then provide a dif and we can deal with it. Again, please stop. <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 15:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

: My God [[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]]! Calm the F--- down. What makes you the supreme master of NPOV anyhow?

===Equiment and forces===

I would like to see a listing of the military capabiliities of IDF, Hezbollah, and Lebanese Armed Forces: Numbers of regulars and reserves, number of tanks, planes, ships, and artillery, type of automatic weapons used, type of rifles and sidearms used, type of antitank, antiaircraft, rockets, etc. In any conflict this is very important, along with training and motivation, anas well as quality of command and control.[[Jane's Defence Weekly]] and allied publications tabulate such info, so it's not all a deep dark defense secret. [[User:Edison|Edison]] 00:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:CIA Factbook https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/le.html says:

:For Lebanon: Population: 3,874,050 (July 2006 est.). Lebanon's military expenditures are $540.6 million per year(2004) at 3.1% (2004) of GDP. Manpower fit for military service: males age 18-49: 821,762,females age 18-49: 865,770 (2005 est.) No info on size of military or equipment.

.

:For Israel, the figures are Population: 6,352,117; Military expenditures: $9.45 billion (2005 est.)

:Military expenditures - percent of GDP: 7.7% (2005 est.); Manpower fit for military service: males age 17-49: :1,255,902, females age 17-49: 1,212,394 (2005 est.) No info on size of military or equipment

:No Hezbollah info.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 00:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the IDF page seems to have a pretty satisfactory summary of equipment used by Israel. In the interest of keeping size down, it probably doesn't pay to repeat it here. [[User:Infinitenoodles|Infinitenoodles]] 03:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

=== chemical weapons ===

Removed statement about chemical weapons because I didn't think this article looked credible and the rest of the site is in Arabic so I'm not sure what kind of site it is : ''[[As-Safir]]'' newspaper also ran a story about alleged use of unknown chemical weapons, citing a member of the "French Association of Cardiovascular Surgeons" <ref name=";As Safir"> [http://www.assafir.com/iso/israeli-aggression/ "Israeli Agression on Lebanon"], [[July 19]] and [[July 21|21]], [[2006]], in ''[[As-Safir]]'', Retrieved on [[2006-07-16]].</ref>.

However I did find other articles about chemical weapons : [http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-239/0607202926164827.htm]

This one claims this picture is of a scene in Lebanon of an IDF soldier handling a chemical weapon shell : [http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060721&articleId=2788]

This one claims that chemical weapons from Iraq were passed to Syria and then to Hezbolla : [http://www.jnewswire.com/article/995]--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 12:50, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That first article doesn't even pretend to be unbiased (it refers to "Zionist aggression in Israel"). Please, wait until we get some verifiable sources, anyone with an agenda can put any claims they want to on a website. You know what they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof ... and saying that Israel somehow needs to resort to chemical weapons (which would cause more international outrage) when their conventional weapons are doing just fine doesn't make much sense. --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;cursor:w-resize;">'''Cyde?Weys'''</span>]] 14:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

:I had no intenion of adding anything based on these sources. I mentioned them to show what little and low quality there is for this topic, after having removed the statement on it.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 16:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

That is not a picture of a 'chemical' weapon in the cited source from globalresearch.ca. It is a mine clearing device called 'Carpet'. http://www.defense-update.com/news/6702carpet.htm

==Discussion about casu belli/purpose military operations==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about casu belli/purpose military operations]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about casu belli/purpose military operations]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about casu belli/purpose military operations]]

===Motivations===

Would discussion of Hezbollah's motivation for the original attack be appropriate in the body of the article? There has been widespread speculation that Iran orchestrated the Hezbollah action to divert international (G8 and UN) attention or effect international action concerning its nuclear programme. [http://www.cfr.org/publication/9362/] [[User:Fishhead64|Fishhead64]] 04:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be, as would a discussion of the motivation for what the UN has called Israel's disproportionate use of force. Included in such discussions should also be both sides' self proclaimed reason or motivation, as well as cited speculations.--[[User:Axgoss|Axgoss]] 01:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Beginning of conflict===

I changed the "Beginning of conflict" article into two sections, "According to Lebanon" and "According to Israel" that should solve our disputes (for all the reasonable people), and stop the constant changing. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 11:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:I saw the edit summaries. Is this picture POV because that is where the soldiers were only according to Hezbollah? If so, that is not clear.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 13:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::That is where Lebanon says the Israeli soldiers were when two of them got arrested and another eight were killed. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 13:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

--

I disagree completely. It is unprecedented to have two different sections showing different views. Especially since the material in both of them is largely the same. I refactored Beginning of conflict in order to have one version, but in the parts where they actually differ (where the conflict began) I put both versions in the same paragraph. This way its not wasteful, and keeps the alreday gigantic article smaller --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 16:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Don't kid yourself, there will be disputes about this until the year 2060. The reason I split up the article is because the edits of it are going so fast you cant get a grip on it. This way you clearly can distinguish which side said what, and if someone changes something (at the rate we are going now) you can see what was changed easilly. This page is small compared to many other war articles. Expect it to get way larger in time. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 16:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:::The war is not even over yet, and its already gigantic. And you cannot split an article in two just because there is a lot of editing being done; an article must always have a presentable appearance--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 16:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::However the effect and aim was to marginalize one view, labeling the views as "some Arab and Iranian" when they are based on quotes from Hezbollah cited from an Indian source. Equally absurd would be labeling Israeli PM's statements as view of "some Israelis".--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 16:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::The reason I don't like your change, is ArmanJan will say its POV for Israel, and revert back to his dual, data-redundant version.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Completely unprecedented to show two views regarding the start of a two week old conflict that is part of a wider conflict that has not been resolved for 1,000 years? Don't worry, you'll get your one view when the victor writes the history books.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Having two sections in Wikipedia for a 2 week conflict is unprecedented. I am strongly pushing my version as NPOV and non-data-redundant. And if you are going to go back in history, then Israel was fighting Filistians back during King David times. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Who says you may not split an section? Take a good look at some of the other war pages. When the section is put into one you suddenly have many Israeli's editting everything to the following, "This is how it happened.... blah blah blah... and the terrorist group hezbollah claimed..." that is not [[Wikipedia:NPOV]]. Each side must be given an equal value of space to tell their side of the event. I do not see why so many Israeli's insist on having their view enforced upon everyone else, it will change nothing in the outcome of this war. It however does enforce what Noam Chomsky once said: (in my own words) You can not sit down with an Israeli and reach a compromise. They want what they want, and that is the end of it. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 16:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:I am all for NPOV too. My version included both Hizballah version that Israelis were already inside Lebanon, and Israeli version. However that is the only difference between the two versions, and you have a lot of useless redundancy in everything else. I don;t see why you need to make two entirely different sections, if they are mostly just copies of each other.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::How is it that in your version that includes Hezbollah's view, you did not attribute that view to Hezbollah, but rather to "some Arab and Iranian sources" - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&diff=65576119&oldid=65575763]--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Because I was refactoring ArmanJan version, and his version said that that the soldiers were captured on Lebanon soil, was from Some Arab and Iranian sources. If you can prove it was from Hizbollah instead, feel free to modify it.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Prove it how? The source says Hezbollah said this. When I read other sources about what Israel, UN, or the US says, there's practically never any actual proof that they said it.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::So if you think that that's justifiable enough to edit it: by all means, edit it.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::I've already changed it once or twice. That is why I am discussing it here. If no one else agrees, fine.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::ArmanJan doesn't agree. (S)He insists on having two almost same versions. Nonetheless, he is cluttering up the article. I think that mine, or ign's versions are best.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"I don;t see why you need to make two entirely different sections", because there are two entirely different views on the event. The Israeli article starts with, 'on 09:05' says who? Haaretz? it then continues, the "the Lebanese Islamist militant group Hezbollah initiated" says who? Israeli sources that were used to make articles? Do you see my point here? '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 17:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:But factually, they only disagree on where the soldiers were kidnapped. Replace militants with some NPOV word, but both locations for the kidnapping/arrest, and it will work fine. You just keep cluttering up the page.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 17:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Casus Belli and start of conflict ===

I think it is in consensus and a known fact that Hezbollah attacked an ordinary Israeli border patrol on Israeli ground (in fact, I think Hezbollah admitted to it). I will ask anyone to refrain from changing the article in a manner which states otherwise. Concerning the claim made by the Lebanses police that the soldiers were "arrested" inside Lebanese territory - I will ask to regard this as a bogus claim, as there is sufficient evidence to the contrary. ''Tweekerd 10:50, 24 July 2006''

::I added your sign, you should not leave your text unsigned. As for your claim. Lebanon from the beginning said they were attacked in Chaab, Israel claims otherwise. What both say should be shown for NPOV. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 11:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:::I refuse to succumb to people posting blatant lies on Wikipedia. It has been reported on all major news agencies and there is recorded footage proof that Hezbollah attacked an ordinary Israeli border patrol. Posting all kinds of Lebanese propoganda which has already been disproved as a part of so-called "Lebanese Side" in this encyclopedia article, is only harming the Truthfulness and neutrality of the article. May I also add that only one person consistently insists on putting it there, while there is an obvious consensus that the attack was on israeli soil. I wonder why nobody debated this for 12 days, and suddenly someone comes up with some Bahrain news that claims the opposite of the truth. I suggest removal of the "Beginning of conflict" part which states "Lebanese Side". It is obviously a lie and propoganda. [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 11:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Wikipedia does not discriminate Bahraini's, so that is all okay. There are also links to Yahoo news (AP) and some other sources. I would have added Lebanese sources if the site was not taken down by hackers everytime. Casus is split in two for [[Wikipedia:NPOV]]. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 12:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

::::Wow, it just is really sad to see how a few people care more about posting propoganda and lies than trying to make this a good article. I have tried in the last 12 days to help make this article as truthful and unbiased as possible, but it seems that the pro-Arab/anti-Israeli bloc is too strong and has got too much spare time on their hands for me to fight it alone. It is this sort of things that Israel has to face all the time. A few million Israelis against some hundreds of millions of Muslims and Arabs, and two dozen Arab/Muslim countries in the world, who do you think is gonna win the propoganda war? We are powerless to fight you. You have done well on the world terrorism front, and are doing very well on the world media and propoganda front. Hooray to you. I give up on trying to make this article worth anything. Maybe after it's all over and nobody comes to mess it up anymore, I'll come back and fix it. Until this is over, you can put an article about frogs' bladders here and it will be more truthful and insightful to this matter than the current article. This has been more than enough. Sad, because I really liked Wikipedia.... [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 12:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Tweekerd: don't give up on the truth. take your time. Find good sources. [[User:Zeq|Zeq]] 12:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:I really want to, but with Persian anti-Israeli Jew-haters like [[ArmanJan]], I find it very difficult. [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 13:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::If there is indeed ''recorded footage proof that Hezbollah attacked an ordinary Israeli border patrol'', a link to this would help resolve this issue, or if there is a source saying that Hizbollah has confirmed that the soldiers were captured in Israel, as was said recently by someone. Another thing: someone, maybe ArmanJan, said that Israeli soldiers often have crossed the border to Lebanon (even after Israel left Lebanon in 2000). Is there any sources for this claim? That would make the "Lebanon version" more likely. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 13:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

How can the Cassus Belli remain as it is? According to Lebanon? Look at the sources - it's nonsense anti-Israeli propoganda. It is well-known and widely accepted that the initiative action of the war was an unprecedented attack on an Israeli border patrol by Hezbollah, killing 8 and capturing 2. It's an aggressive act of war, simple as that. This isn't a matter of point of view. It's a matter of truth versus propoganda and lies. --Monotreme, 16:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Tweek, but it's hard to be sympathetic to someone who just insinuated an editor is a Terrorist. It's quite clear where your POV lies. As for the actual discussion topic, I agree the truth should be represented. We're not here to present 50/50 airtime to both sides - I very much doubt the article on the Sun has half of its length dedicated to the theory it is Cheese. The sun is hot, the sky is blue, and, if you can find an overwhelming majority of evidence that the soldiers were in Israel when they were kidnapped, then we don't need to present arguments to the contrary. But while there is debate (and there seems to be more than one source) then both should stand. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 13:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::If it is indeed the official Lebanon and/or Hezbollah statement that the soldiers were captured in Lebanon, then it ought to be mentioned here in some way, even if it is very unlikely that it is true. It doesn't seem that likely to me that Israel would send two humwees, partly manned by reservists, on a dangerous mission into enemy territory. But somebody said earlier something about it being common that Israel soldiers entered Lebanon. If it can really be confirmed by some sources that it is routine for Israeli Humwees to patrol on the Lebanon side of the border, then it wouldn't be that easy to take this for pure propaganda. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 13:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you lorek85, the guy has been deleting the work of many people all over the article and he accuses me of being a "anti-Israeli Jew-hater". As for Monotreme wanting proof for what I previously said, [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/231406.stm] thats just one example. They have been doing it a thousand times before this conflict. PS: It is also in Hezbollah's official statement (by leader) that they were captured in south-lebanon. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 13:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

::You have to be kidding me if you think that that article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/231406.stm) can form any kind of precedent to a proposed argument regarding an incursion into Lebanon. Besides, your statement 'They have been doing it a thousand times before this conflict' gives me the impression you are far more personally tied to this issue than any encyclopaedic editor should be. Take a time out. Cuomo11.

:I'm sorry mate, but I think it's very difficult to consider lying and propoganda "work". I have added a few things myself and have constantly tried to keep POV and speculations out of the article. I really don't care what you say, because it is obvious that you care more about showing your POV than actually making this a better article. And yes, Iorek, I am an Israeli with a POV, but I have not been adding Israeli right-wing propoganda just because I think it's true, and believe me, there is much of it. I tried to make this more into an encyclopedia article, while some people find this a great medium for propoganda. Obviously, many people read the Wikipedia, and unfortunately, most of them believe it. So did I, until I saw how full of s**t the editing on this article has been so far. If there's anything I've learned from this whole ordeal, is that an encyclopedia you can let anyone write will informative in the best case, a lot of crap in the worst case, and probably extremely biased towards one side or the other in contoversial cases. And that's despite my efforts. I can't fight for the truth by myself, so I guess I won't. And on another note, I truly have a serious problem believeing someone who is constantly editing this article to be more and more POV, especially when he is from a country which is funding the Hezbollah terrorists and has called for the destruction of Israel (as well as USA, etc.) for the last 27 years, and is now threatening the world with its ever advancing nuclear capabilities, and has probably been the instigator of this entire conflict with its desperate need to draw the world's attention away from its nuclear program. Ungrateful as well, because Iran has forgotten Israel's help and the great relations the two countries had before the Iranian revolution in 1979, when Iran was going forward instead of backwards. If this goes on, unfortunately, as they said in "Spaceballs" - "There goes the planet..." [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 14:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Burden of proof''': Thus far, the only claims I have been able to find which merely ''suggest'' that Israeli troops were beyond the blue line when attacked are based on the same, unnamed "Lebanese Police Sources". The overwhelming majority of journalists, the UN, the EU, even Saudi Arabia, not to mention various countries have condemned Hezbollah for their "cross-border raid". While it is not outside of the realm of possibility that Israeli troops were in Lebanon when captured, the overwhelming amount of credible sources and world governments say that Hezbollah crossed the border. If somebody wants to put forth an alternative theory, they should produce something stronger than "Unnamed Lebanese Police" sources to back up the claim before putting it in the article, plain and simple. This isn't POV, it's simply about citing sources and verifiability. Asserting something with such lacking citations should be cleared in talk '''before''' being added to the page, not after. Bring your sources and let's talk. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 15:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

To be fair, I think it's reasonable to state Hezbollah's side of the story. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant, it's simply what Hezbollah is saying, and should be noted as such. As long as the status of the claim is made clear, I believe it has a place in the article. On another note, could we please keep this discussion more on the issue, and less on accusations of bias? [[User:Infinitenoodles|Infinitenoodles]] 15:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:This has nothing to do with POV. So far I have been unable to find that '''Hezbollah''' has made this claim. The sole source cited by the few news organizations carrying the story is unnamed "Lebanese Police". Common sense -- WP should not include every claim by every crackpot in the universe, there should be a ''minimal'' amount of newsworthy backing. This isn't about POV. The claim isn't even backed by the people in whose name it was made. Produce a single source which doesn't rely on "Lebanese Police" that even Siniora doesn't seem to know about. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 15:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::It might be eaiser to find the claim if you did not remove the source yourself - [[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&diff=next&oldid=65558349]].--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Paraphelion''': No edit I make is a "nice job". I did the work and came up with a list of cites. I am removing all references to Israeli soldiers being in Lebanon as a claim because the claim is unsubstantiated, not because I think the claim is false. Bring credible sources and I will be happy to reword it to something like "Most international bodies, including the US, the EU, the UN, and prominent news organizations share a consensus that the Israeli soldiers were captured in Israel, however an anonymously quoted Lebanese Policeman said that they were actually in Southern Lebanon". In the meantime, it is not NPOV nor does it follow WP guidelines to leave such a weakly-cited assertion in the article, regardless of what the assertion is. Here's my list:

:[http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060720-034633-7349r The UN]

:[http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-07-13-eu-israel_x.htm?csp=34 The EU]

:[http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8CEC68E6-3CEF-4E1B-907B-EF4B8F4D5585.htm Al Jazeera]

:[http://www.arabtimesonline.com/arabtimes/kuwait/Viewdet.asp?ID=8440&cat=a The Arab Times]

:[http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/mideast.diplomacy/index.html CNN]

:[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,203775,00.html FOX], although I have mixed feelings on the journalistic credibility of this one.

:[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13884768/ the Washington Post]

:[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5173078.stm the BBC]

:[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13841307/ MSNBC]

:[http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush;_ylt=As9__O2po3G7HJYZFWGfcOQXr7sF;_ylu=X3oDMTA0cDJlYmhvBHNlYwM- the Associated Press]

I won't even bother to cite sources about the US, I think we can all stipulate to their position on the matter. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 15:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::One of the source gives Hezbollah's statement, it's not merely anonymous policemen. --[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 16:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::The thing is that these sources say exactly what Israel has said. We all know that none of these journalists were there when it happened, so we can conclude that they took someone's side while writing all their articles. The Lebanese government (even the Lebanese President on CNN TV) said they were captured on Lebanese territory (Chaab). Hezbollah also announced they were captured in "south-Lebanon". So this leaves us with two version, on the one hand you have Lebanon saying it was in Chaab, on the other hand you have Israeli's saying it was in North-israel. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 15:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:::Idangazit has a good point. This needs a better source. Paraphelion, which source cites Hezbollah? [[User:Infinitenoodles|Infinitenoodles]] 16:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::: [[http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html]], which is IANS (through yahoo news), which I think is India based. I mentioned this in the edit summaries, but of course was ignored by Idangazit because he rather focus on anonymous policemen. Here is the edit in which he removes this source - [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&diff=next&oldid=65558349]. Later on Doom777 restores the text without the citation, despite having previously edited this section specifically, maintaining the citation. Good one.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 16:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:: Interestingly, regarding the position of the UN, on [[International reactions to the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict#United Nations]], it says "Kofi Annan referred to the Hezbollah attack as having occurred in southern Lebanon." The references didn't support that though, and if he really said that he probably have changed his mind by now. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 16:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::: Or maybe the person who wrote this thought about the Annan quote from another reference: “I condemn without reservations the attack in southern Lebanon, and demand that Israeli troops be released immediately,” [http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274607,00.html]--[[User:Battra|Battra]] 16:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Paraphelion''': I don't prefer to ignore anything. I prefer to play by Wikipedias rules, specifically [[WP:V]] and [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources]], or even more specifically [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence]]. This is no different than the Phosphorus Bombs debate, and yet nobody is putting up a map that says "Phosphorus bombs dropped here", no matter what the caption of the map says. There is overwhelming characterization in the media as this being a cross border raid, and I've cited all of these sources and then some in the article. I have been unable to find official Hezbollah press release text saying anything about having captured soldiers in southern lebanon, despite the IANA quote. The sources I quote clearly say that it is cross-border. I could even tell you that my cousin was at the attacked IDF post, but that is meaningless in WP rules, so I'm not making my case that way. These claims are, bottom line, about as well-supported as the phosphorus bomb claims, and while it may anger me to see such blatant lies in wikipedia, I am keeping my cool and sticking to the policies outlined to make the case. The edits you support are not balanced and NPOV, they include a map which says "Soldiers kidnapped here" -- and a caption does not make up for that. I think the formulation I have edited should be clear enough. Paraphelion, specifically, if you want to resolve this dispute in a civil manner, then resolve it with me in talk. In the interests of good faith I have actually left the claim in the article, opposed by the links I have cited above, while we ascertain the burden of proof necessary to make such a claim in talk -- right now the only source is still the Lebanese Police, by all means please provide some fulltext of a Hezbollah statement indicating that they kidnapped the soldier from Lebanon and not Israel. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Update''': the BBC cites Hezbollah as capturing Israeli soldiers "at the border", not "inside lebanon", or "near the border", or "at [[Ayta al-Sha`b]]". The seemingly-referenced quote by nasrallah from the video at 05:33 says that the attack was "carried out by the lebanese resistance in southern lebanon", not that the soldiers were in lebanon and captured. I can argue semantics back and forth but it seems far more clear that the grouping is "[carried out by] (lebanese resistance in southern lebanon)' rather than "(lebanese resistance) [carried out] (in southern lebanon)". If IDF soldiers were on Lebanese soil, Nasrallah would have certainly cited that as a casus belli in big bold letters. I truly, truly fail to see why this is even being debated, resting on the shoulders of Lebanese Police (who have not been heared from before or since) and some shakily-interpreted quotes from Nasrallah's speech. Link to BBC article text [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm here] (scroll to bottom), link to video [http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/check/nolavconsole/ifs_news/hi?redirect=st.stm&news=1&bbram=1&bbwm=1&nbram=1&nbwm=1&nol_storyid=5174160 here]. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:I don't think we're ever going to know for sure unless some kind of investigation is conducted or someone finds satellite photos. It is in each party's interest to claim it was on their side of the border. Are there official Hezbollah press releases for anything? All the quotes I've seen that are supposedy by Hezbollah are just quotes in articles not saying how they obtained them. If we're going to pick and choose which Hezbollah claims based on whether or not they are just crazy threats or do not contradict the Israeli story, why quote Hezbollah at all?--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[[Ayta al-Sha`b]] is at the border, where did you think it is? Did you think Israeli soldiers walked their way to the capital city Beirut? South Lebanon means the same as what "South-Canada" would mean. It means the south of Canada... this is getting ridiculous. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 17:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:Are you replying to me? Please indent otherwise it is not clear.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 17:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::No, I was referring to "Idangazit". :-) '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 17:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

: ''Are there official Hezbollah press releases for anything? '' According to the article on [[Hizbollah]], their official site is this: [http://www.alghaliboun.net/english/] Maybe someone can find something there (it's a mess)? I have no idea how official it really is though. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 17:50, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

ArmanJan, I think that the claim that the IDF was in southern lebanon is ridiculous, so I agree that this is getting ridiculous, and I know precisely where Ayta al Sha'b is. However, I've backed up my claims with citations and pointed at the relevant WP policies governing what should and shouldn't make the cut for mentioning in articles. If you want to go a step further, in line with WP guidelines, I propose a survey on the issue. Until then, I propose the following points as an agreed basis:

:big NPOV, uncited graphics saying "soldiers captured here" inside lebanon should definitely not have a place in the article unless there are substantial claims to this effect. The image is clearly extremely contentious, and text with citations does a better job right now of conveying that "POV".

:Since the text does have citations (however poor) that should "hold the fort" until we reach a consensus. It irks me to see the claim even presented given the weakness of the supporting evidence, but if you truly believe it is worth including in WP, if you ''truly'' think that there is some basis to this claim, then my paragraph on the matter makes your case using the citations you have alongside the citations I have. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]]

::I agree that the image and caption both need to specify that this is merely a Hezbolla claim. I think there is a slim possibility there is some basis for the claim, however I do think Hezbolla would have claimed this regardless.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 18:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So? That I have first-degree knowledge of where the action took place doesn't matter, but if you are interested in displaying the truth on WP, then play by WP's rules, not by big NPOV images. This conflict should have nothing to do with the conflict we are writing about. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 18:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

ArmanJan: I've laid out reasons on the article's talk page, I've brought citations. I've made an edit which still has the very flimsy claim in it, despite the fact that I think it has no place in wikipedia (not because it is false, but because it is poorly sourced and cited). The claim is false, and presenting it as a competitor to Israeli claims is not NPOV -- it is an extraordinary claim given the amount of citation to the contrary, and I urge you to read [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence]], which explicitly lays out WP's approach to such claims. In the meantime, it is sheer POV and bias to include a graphic displaying a big "soldiers captured here" when there is so little to support the claim. The image itself, alone, is POV because it has red lettering laying out what is not even cited as hezbollah's position on the matter, while giving zero display to the claims of pretty much the rest of the world. Although it personally makes me feel like taking a shower, I am talking to you and trying to resolve this in the Wikipedia Way. Stop making reasonless reverts, read the talk page where I have laid out a course of action, and participate instead of bias editing. [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 19:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:This ins't as simple as we'd like. While yes, there is an overwhelming number of sources supporting the 'In Israel' POV, they all, I would assume, take this story from the Israeli government. There are much fewer sources supporting Hezbollah and Lebanon, and especially not enough to support Idangazits correct argument of [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence|exceptional evidence]]. However, it does really end up with Israeli govt vs Lebanon. Both of them would claim what they claim, and I think they're about as trustworthy as each other.

:I would propose, then, as a comprimise, that the majority of the article, and the infobox, be dedicated to the 'In Israel' argument, while a small couple of sentences in the 'start of conflict' (and without a map) list the Hezbollah and Lebanon POV, primarily for completeness. If more evidence can be found to support Lebanon, then it could beat the threshold required by exceptional evidence. Until then, though, I think the international consensus lies with 'In Israel'. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 00:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

::Wow, Iorek85, that was very... satisfying to read. I agree about skepticism of one side or the other -- and I've been phoning around to see if there are official media photos of the attacked hummvees. I remember seeing them both in Israeli and Global media on the first day of the conflict, sitting on an Israeli road, charred and black. Hopefully if I can track that down and include it this should lay this issue to rest. But most importantly, thank you for taking the time to read [[Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_evidence|exceptional evidence]]. :) [[User:Idangazit|Idangazit]] 07:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::: Wow, people. This gets a lot of discussion. But why in the world is Lebanon listed as a combatant? The Israelis would not agree with that, nor would Hezbollah, nor any observer. That just seems non-controversial. -[[User:Kmaguir1|Kmaguir1]] 04:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::I think mainly because they are taking casualties? Correct me if I am wrong, but some Lebanese military sites have been hit that have nothing to do with Hezbollah. Lebanon has also used AA to defend itself. If Lebanon is to be removed as a combatant, I think it would be unfair if their casualties appeared less prominently than those taken by other sides.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 08:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about the structure and general content of the article==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive6#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

**Article Size

**Suggested Sub Articles

**Why is there nothing on the gaza strip?

**Hezbollah campaign

**Historical Background

**Relevance? - small posts about Russian language source, "Free Lebanon" and Robert Fisk

**Operation Truthful/True/Fulfilled Promise?

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive9#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article]]

**Format of infobox (labeling of civilians, soldiers)

**1.2 Relevance?

**"not sure as to the relevance."

**External Links

**1.3.1 Too many links - what stays?

**Various sections about evacuation

**International reaction

**Infobox gives me a headache

**Nothing is mentioned about foreign nationals being evacuated

These are archived discussions. Please do not edit them.--[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 01:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

===Video of Hezbollah firing missiles===

On YouTube there are several video's of Hezbollah firing a cruise missiles, and the Noor anti-ship missile that hit the israeli ship (huge blast). There is also another video where Hezbollah fires a land-to-air missile and hits an Israeli aircraft, it also shows the aircraft (i dont know what it is, but its large and it looks weird). Should I add it? (in thumbnail form/'click-to-view' way, if you know what I mean). '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 19:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'''

Yes [[User:Hello32020|Hello32020]] 19:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::Arggh, wikipedia doesnt allow embedded objects. Is it possible to upload video's to wikipedia and then embed them? Anyway, here are the two links [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT0lhzMzCts Hezbollah launches cruise missiles and Noor anti-ship missile, hits israeli ship] and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJsN2eGiOyM Hezbollah knocks down (possibly using Misagh-2) an Israeli aircraft] '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 20:08, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'''

woah .. a bit too anxious again there, ArmanJan, my friend. The Israeli army has denied this to be any sort of an Israeli aircraft. In fact, they believe this to be a failed launch of a [[Zelzal-2]] missile by the Hezbollah, which has similiar features of the [[Scud]] missile. --[[User:Dberliner|Dberliner]] 21:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::Israel says lot's of things. In the video you see a Misagh-1 (or2) (maybe even another type) being launched, it then hits the UFO and you then see it crash. Take a good look for the land-to-air missile trail. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 21:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'''

::PS: the UFO you see on the ground seems the size of 10 [[Zelzal-2]]'s, [[Zelzal-2]] is only 60cm wide. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]]'''

::: Just wondering how you came to that conclusion? I just checked out that video and the apparent size of the object being filmed's diameter matches 60cm quite closely. FYI 10 x 60cm is 6 meters, or twice the size of the [[Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Booster|solid rocket boosters]] used to launch the space shuttle! -[[User:Shogun|Shogun]] 06:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::The pipe is not the only part of the UFO, around them are the rest of the parts. Also, how do you explain the anti-aircraft missile trail, the UFO being hit and then crashing? '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 11:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

::::: I didn't note any other debris in the immediate vicinty and anyway it looks like it was a missile [http://asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=49348 article] ''The officials said Israeli aircraft targeted a truck carrying the weapons before they could be launched. The force of the blast sent one missile flying into the air, but it fell nearby. Israeli officials said the destroyed missile was an Iranian-made Zilzal, which has a range of about 120kms.'' Also it appears the video was a combination of two different events at different times joined together, note the discontinuity between the missile launch the the object falling (I should this is my own observation from watching the low quality youtube video). -[[User:Shogun|Shogun]] 15:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Maybe you are right, but I am sure I saw an aircraft on BBC. It was falling to the ground like a bullerfly missing one wings (turning around) after it got hit by a missile. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 16:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)'''

Well, Israel does tend to depict the truth to its best, usually. Part of being a [[democracy]], and therefore being exposed to great internal media scrutiny (and the Israeli journalists are doing that just great). When they were attacked before or had lost lives or machinery, they have admitted it or were forced to admit it pretty fast by the internal mechanism of democracy and freedom of press, which I have mentioned above. Therefore I am assuming there is no reason to believe otherwise in this case. [[User:Dberliner|Dberliner]]

Now they're shooting down UFO's. The Alpha Centaurans will no doubt enter the conflict. Seriously, I have not read that the Hezbolli have cruise missiles, only various rockets. The terms are not interchangeable.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 04:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Hezbollah rocket campaign ===

Hello all. A deficiency in this article which just jumps out at me is the lack of detailing of the Hezbollah rocket campaign on equal footing as the Israeli bombing campaign. The result is that the Israeli campaign is mentioned once as the response and then again in relation to civilian casualties, while the Hezbollah rockets are only mentioned in the civilians section. Someone who does not read the civilians section will not be aware of this aspect of the hostilities, which is a central part of every mainstream news report, and is listed as one of Israel's conditions for ceasing hostilities. Surely this should be corrected. I'm waiting eagerly for feedback, and am beginning to put something together. Cheers, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 18:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The section on Israeli damage to civilians quotes numerous people - none from Israel - and goes into tiny detail illustrated with pictures of destruction. The section on Hezbollah bombings starts with a quote from Nasrallah (one in which he is most likely lying, too) - no quotes from Israel - and is a generic overview illusrated with a contour map. Why aren't there any pictures of Hezbollah firing rockets, or of damaged residential buildings in Haifa and other cities? Why isn't there any mention of Hezbollah rockets loaded with shrapnel? Why aren't there any quotes from Israeli sources - do Shiite militants have more credibility, or what? The whole article is lopsided.

=== Criticism of both sides ===

Any suggestions for the best way to discuss the quotes that criticise both Hezbollah and Israel? I've quoted them below:

''[[Louise Arbour]], [[United Nations]] high commissioner for human rights, expressed "grave concern over the continued killing and maiming of civilians in Lebanon, Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory." She suggested that the actions of Israel and Hezbollah may constitute [[war crimes]]. <ref>{{cite news|title=UN warning on Mid-East war crimes|url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5197544.stm|publisher=[[BBC]]|date=[[2006-07-20]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title=Toll Rises in Middle East|url=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/20/world/middleeast/20mideast.html?ei=5094&en=c9b26163f93ed42f&hp=&ex=1153454400&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all|publisher=[[New York Times]]|date=[[2006-07-19]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title='Is this the price to pay?' Lebanese PM asks|url=http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/19/mideast-diplomacy.html|publisher=[[CBC]]|date=[[2006-07-19]]}}</ref> Arbour called for Israel to obey a "principle of proportionality" and said, "indiscriminate shelling of cities constitutes a foreseeable and unacceptable targeting of civilians … Similarly, the bombardment of sites with alleged military significance, but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians, is unjustifiable."''

''One day after the call for a ceasefire by [[UN Secretary General]] [[Kofi Annan]] on 20&nbsp;July 2006, a U.N.-run observation post located near [[Zarit]], Israel near the Lebanese border was hit by direct fire during fighting between Israel and the Hezbollah militia. The Israeli army claimed Hezbollah rockets hit the U.N. post; however, a U.N. officer claimed that the post "was hit by an Israeli artillery shell."<ref>{{cite news|title=U.N. post hit in Israel-Hezbollah fighting|url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060721/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel|publisher=[[Associated Press]]|date=[[2006-07-21]]}}</ref>''

Cheers, <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 19:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone just removed (justifiably?) the duplicated statements. Could somebody please suggest an NPOV method of accomplishing this? <font style="color:#22AA00;">'''[[User:Tewfik|Tewfik]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:Tewfik|Talk]]}</font> 21:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

=== pre-planning for the war ===

Does anyone know how much there is to this : [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP ] "Israel set war plan more than a year ago

Strategy was put in motion as Hezbollah began increasing its military strength"--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 18:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Most countries have plans for every war they think possible or likely. The US had plans to invade Canada and Mexico and to fight Britain for many decades in the 2oth century. That didn't mean they were ever on the verge of doing it. It would be astounding if Israel did not keep up to date plans to fight any or all of their neighbors, given several wars in the last 56 years.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 00:01, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

If Israel had a plan against Hezbollah it is definitely using it now. To know that Israel is currently carrying out a plan it has been working on over the past year is certainly noteworthy, both for the critics and proponents of Israels actions. --[[User:Axgoss|Axgoss]] 01:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Hell in a Hand Basket ===

What happened? This article was heading towards some sort of understandable structure a few days ago, but when I came in today it seems over the course of 4 days the article has come unglued. Its unpleasant to look at and lacks any semblance of a flow. The picture warring has continued to where people keep putting up a map as an image rather than anything good, like artillery or katyusha firing. Did something happen over these 4 days where an image of artillery firing became unacceptable? If not, why does it continually get removed? {{User:Rangeley/sig2}} 20:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

:The edit wars have really burned a lot of time/energy particularly the main picture. Remember i said a few days ago we should have the map as otherwise someone would be pissed enough with the picture (whatever it is!!!) to edit war over it. This is the most emotionally charged (in the outside world) conflict at the moment if not in the history of the world. Most people have strong views on this whole situation, most countries in the world are affected (oil price being one example) by these events. I just dont think you understand how important this is to some people, and that this very page is one of the battlefields of this conflict. Yes artillery firing is unacceptable to enough people that it should be respected and a map shows more usful information. I really do not understand the value of or the need for a COOL picture of something, especially as this causes so much trouble for SO little gain.[[User:Hypnosadist|Hypnosadist]] 23:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

::I am sorry, but we do not let people with agendas other than making the best article determine what we can and cannot show. People are emotionally charged, and they will be that way about the casualty numbers, about what the casus belli is, about the title. If the only objection to something is that it doesnt portray the war in the fashion they want it to be, we can ignore them. If they edit without base, we revert them, just like we would rvert the person who put the goatse-esque image up. An image of artillery being fired is the best image we have at this time that is free or qualifies for fair use. As time progresses we will get better and better images. THe map is no "safe alternative" that everyone likes, people have objected to it and it was already determined, when you first brought it up, that it is not the best thing to have up there. {{User:Rangeley/sig2}} 13:06, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:1)Npov is an important principle that applies to pictures as much the words, bet you did not like the little red horse picture, that was your pov(if you didn't several people did, and that was thier pov). Someone else wants a dead lebanise kid pic to show the REALITY of the war, others want rocket crators in Haifa, its all pov. 2)What does one picture (of anything) achieve that is worth the wikistress that this is causing? Its a complete waste of time and energy hence why i have never edited the pic or done a revert.3) I'm bringing the map up a second time as after 100's of pointless changes of picture the conflict is still ongoing, it will continue, because this issue is so charged.4)Many more people seem to support the map over any given picture(as apposed to the total number of people who want thier picture).[[User:Hypnosadist|Hypnosadist]] 13:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::On what basis? A picture of a red toy in the rubble does indeed outline the true nature of the war, and is not POV. Artillery being fired is not POV. Katyusha being fired is not POV. I would take any of these images over a map that shows nothing more than the "Location: Lebanon and northern Israel" does. Maps are '''only''' used in the infobox when outlining major troops movements and strategy, neither of which are happening now. I have frequently removed images if they were not free/fair use, even if they were infact better. You should not worry about accomodating people who edit with incorrect basis. We should always use the best image. {{User:Rangeley/sig2}} 13:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Discussion about strength of participants ===

Does anyone have anything about the strength of the participants here? Seems funny if there are casualties, but no strength to start off with in the first place. A previous similar post on this subject was deleted as "irrelevant" by an anon. --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 04:35, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I was just going to restore this section, but you beat me to it. It appears your question was originally deleted because the information was covered in one of the first 2 archived sections of this Talkpage. --[[User:Doc Tropics|Doc Tropics]] ^{[[User talk:Doc Tropics|Message in a bottle]]} 04:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:Oh, thank you for the effort. But I raised this question because the infobox doesn't show anything about it yet. :D --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 15:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I put a start towards this on the other article on the military conflict. I found info on the Israeli number of planes, but there is needed verifiable source for Hezbollah rocket arsenal, also manpower, artillery, other equipment, and need info for Lebanese armed forces if they enter the conflict.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 04:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Edits around 1948 and terms ===

I've just edited the beginning two paragraphs for three items:

1) Starting the conflict after the 1948 war is disengenous. The facts that the Arab League and Lebanon commenced fighting before Israeli independence and formally declared war on Israel are of key importance to the discussion

2) I deleted the reference to the number of current refugees. The UNHCR, the body managed all refugee situations except the Palestinians, does not count descendents as refugees. They're citizens of the new country. That UNWRA chose differently obscures the ability to reasonably compare refugee issues around the world. As a compromise, I even left in the 110,000 number that's totally unconfirmed.

3) I changed "militant" to "terrorist" in the second pararagraph. Wikipedia defines it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist and to claim it doesn't fit only when attacking Israel is not balanced. They call for the destruction of a sovereign State and directly target civilians. They are not militants.

[[User:ithinktfiam]]'''</font><font style="color:#888888;">^{[[User Talk:ithinktfiam|Talk]]}</font> 10:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:1) This is not the article about the 1948 war.

:2) Children of refugees born in foreign countries are not automatically given citizenship.

:3) Calling for destruction of the enemy and directly targeting civilians is in no way incompatible with being a militant. [[User talk:Zocky|Zocky]] | [[User:Zocky/Picture Popups|picture popups]] 09:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Why not just call them "Good Guys" and "Bad Guys?" Equally POV. On the other hand, many sources have observed that Israel is seeking to destroy a sovereign state and is attacking civilians, so what does that make them?[[User:Edison|Edison]] 04:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:The nuance is between attacking and targeting. Israel kills civilians when the civilians get in the way, but does not want civilian deaths, and dropped fliers telling all civilians to move away from Hizbollah or else their lives will be endangered. Hizbollah, on the other hand, purposely targets civilians in Haifa and northern Israeli villages. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 02:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

=== [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] ===

This whole section:

<blockquote>===Claims of white phosphorus use by Israeli forces===

On [[16 July]] Lebanese President [[Emile Lahoud]] claimed Israeli forces have used "[[phosphorus bomb|phosphorus incendiary bombs]], which are a violation of international laws, … against Lebanese civilians."<ref name= "DailyStarGeneva">{{cite news | url =http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=73994 | title=Lebanon under Israeli attack: Sunday Roundup | date = [[2006-07-16]] | accessdate = [[2006-07-20]] | publisher= [[Daily Star (Lebanon)]]}}</ref><ref name="Naharnet">{{cite news | url= http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/0ECB74B32C97055CC22571AD00526087?OpenDocument | title =Lebanon Accuses Israel of Using Internationally Prohibited Weapons Against Civilians | date = [[2006-07-16]] | accessdate = [[2006-07-20]] | publisher=[[Naharnet]]}}</ref><ref>{{cite news | url= http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/07/post_14.php | title = Updated report on the war in Lebanon — Day 8 | date = [[2006-07-19]] | accessdate = [[2006-07-20]] | publisher = [[Ya Libnan]]}}</ref> Information Minister Ghazi Aridi also said, "Israel is using internationally prohibited weapons against civilians."<ref name="DailyStarGeneva" /><ref name="Naharnet" /><ref name="AljGeneva">{{cite news | url=http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11728 | title= Israel uses banned weapons against Lebanese civilians | date = [[2006-07-17]] | accessdate = [[2006-07-20]] | publisher=[[Aljazeera]]}}</ref> President Lahoud and Minister Aridi's claims remain unverified.<ref>{{cite news | url=http://cbs13.com/topstories/topstories_story_197091650.html | title = Israel, Lebanon Wage War Of Words | date = [[2006-07-16]] | accessdate = 2006-07-21 | publisher = [[CBS News]]}}</ref> The deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilians is prohibited by the [[Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons]], Protocol III<ref name="protocol3">{{cite journal | url= http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/int/convention_conventional-wpns_prot-iii.htm | title = Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons | publisher=[[GlobalSecurity.org]] | date = [[1980-10-10]] | accessdate = [[2006-07-20]]}}</ref>, which has not been signed by Israel or any other party in the conflict. The use of incendiary weapons against military targets is not regulated by that treaty.</blockquote>

Is a violation of [[WP:V]], [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:NOR]] - can someone find creadiable information about this subject before pushing it into the article ? [[User:Zeq|Zeq]] 11:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:I don't see the problem. The article does not say that white phosphorus has been used, it says that the president of Lebanon says that white phosphorus has been used. The latter is verifiable. In the same manner, there are claims being made that there are Iranian military in Lebanon helping Hizbollah. That is not verifiable either, but we can note that the claim has been made. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 11:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:: Though maybe we could describe this claim with one or two sentences instead of a whole section. --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 12:00, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Such an extremely important fact cannot be left out. The claim is not being made from the fringes but by the Prime Minister of one of the combatants. This is extremely newsworthy and belongs in the article as such, althought I agree that the presentation has to be worked on, along with Israeli denials, if any.

::::Now, you cite a violation of [[WP:V]]. You seem not to understand [[WP:V]]: it explicitly states that '''[[WP:V#Verifiability.2C_not_truth|verifiability, not truth]], is what wiki is about. Planty of soucers that meet [[WP:RS]] standards were provided. You might think they lie, but thats your POV: to any rational person they meet [[WP:RS]].

::::Which brings me to the other, you claim it violates [[WP:RS]]. It doesn't. Daily Star and Al-Jazeera are both recognized news outlets, with international reach and jornalistic standards. Sure, they do represent the POV of Lebanon in a better light, but Ynet, Haaretz and Jerusalem Post all present Israeli POV in a better light, and I dont see you saying they are not [[WP:RS]].

::::Lastly, you cite [[WP:OR]]. I have read and re-read the section and cannot find [[WP:OR]] violations. None. All statements are sourced by [[WP:RS]] compliant sources, and no statements beyond those on the originals, or approximate allowed rewrites is present.

:::::Someone pointed out to me that maybe you think the explanation at the bottom was a [[WP:NOR]] because it didnt have [[WP:RS]] sources. This is ludicrous: the paragraph is almost verbatim from the well sourced page on the "Protocol" in Wikipedia, and is linked to that article. Far from being original research, it is a reference to a wikipage. To eliminate confusion am adding a seealso.

::::Please before citing wikipedia policies, try to grasp what they are really about, and read them, you obviously havent. I will admit I have been guilty of this in the path, but we can all learn, and I hope you do too.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 13:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

*Wikipedia is not aplace where one sided unproven accusation should be used. [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] are clear to the type of sources that should be used in contriversial subjects. Also just bring quotes from UN laws is good for an article about these laws but in the context of this article it is clearly [[WP:OR]] (unless you have a realiable source quoting this in connection with this very crisis). [[User:Zeq|Zeq]] 03:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:It is a collection of facts, not an opinion. It is therefore not OR. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 04:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:Zeq, we have all kinds of unproven, one-sided, declarations on the page, from all sides. For example, the allegation by the ISraeli chief of staff of over 100 Hizbollah dead has not been confirmed. Yet, we include them because they are important declarations by important actors, and are provided by [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:V]]. Remember that [[WP:V]] establishes that '''verifiability not truth''' is what matters.

: As to the [[WP:OR]] objection, Iorek85 is correct, but furthermore, if we where to use your logic, we would have to remove the entire "Background information" section as [[WP:OR]], which we all agree would be stupid.

: We have to include this background information to balance the reporting of the claim, so readers to reach their conclusions with full information.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 05:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

===Blank references===

There are quite a few blank references (they are given names but go nowhere). Are they O.K to delete? --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 09:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:yes. --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 09:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In the infobox there is a reference "Israel says soldiers killed in clash with Hezbollah", KBCI 2, concerning the Israeli military casualities. The page doesn't exist anymore, but from the link is recognizable that it was an AP news. Any updated source info for this available?

----

===Names of operations in the preamble?===

Well, the preamble should say the most important stuff with as few words as possible. Now the preamble contains this:

: ''"On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah initiated Operation Truthful Promise, named for a "promise" by its leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, to capture Israeli soldiers and swap them for the remaining three Lebanese held by Israel, mainly Samir Kuntar. Israel then responded with Operation Just Reward, later renamed Operation Change of Direction."''

Maybe all these names could be moved to other sections of the article, as they doesn't really contain any information regarding what is happening? --[[User:Battra|Battra]] 11:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

===Splitting up the article===

As the article seems to get larger and larger, I suggest that it is splitted into different articles. At least Casualties section can be removed without breaking the integrity of the article. Internatinal reaction has already own article, now it has way too much text on this side; same goes to the Military operations section.--[[User:Jyril|JyriL]] <sup style="font-size:x-small">[[User Talk:Jyril|talk]]</sup> 00:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's getting too big. I think we should shorten the history and 'international reaction' section. Despite having their own pages, they seem to be getting longer and longer. 200 references is way too many! --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 09:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yes, many things have to be cut down. I want to do that eventually, unless someone opposes. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 02:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

==="Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict"===

I have created stub article on [[Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]]. The reason is that while I support the deletion of the "Role of Iran and Syria..." article, the debate there did raise a good point, which is that there is a need to discuss the roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors this conflict, and that such discussion could be too big for this main page, so a relevant, NPOV page seems to be needed. Remember: the page must remain NPOV and balanced, and is now a stub, so it will take some time for a good page to emerge.

Besides the already mentioned support of Hezbollah by Syria and Iran, I think we should discuss US support to Israel and the Israeli political parties, and to US and Israeli support of political parties and militias in Lebanon. Additionally, we would have, of course, to discuss Israeli support of the Lebanese Forces and the Phalange, and its funding and operational leadership of an assasination squad responsible for a number of high visibility assassinations of Lebanese unsympathetic to Israeli views. Etc, etc, etc.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 22:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

: claims, claims, claims, is claimed to.... (add this words to your second paragraph, and it'll be NPOV[[User:M. Butterfly|M. Butterfly]] 17:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

===Introductory paragraph===

The paragraph has gone to hell, its full of POV, and unnecesary details that should go to other sections. For example, I suggest moving the details of the Lebanese prisioners in Israel to the "Background" section, and rewirting for POV. Again people, I think we are missing the point, NPOV and balance are important, but so is article quality, please when you edit have this in mind: there are almost 5 subpages, and 10 sections and subsections, pleas eput your contributions where they go. Intro should be short, have no major details, and only mention things that are really relevant to the WHOLE article, not to part of it, like motives etc.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 13:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

: Well one of the sub-articles will be completely removed, once I remove the Ayta al_Sha'b incident and put the content back in the original site.

=== Missing from this article ===

Hizbula has been hiting israeli towns and cities along the border for a long time (once evety few month an israeli was killed by rockets). The new longer range and the kidnaping of the 2 soldiesr are just the last straw that brought Israel to fight back. [[User:Zeq|Zeq]] 04:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

: True. This should go in the background - the fighting at the end of May. Just find a good citation for it. [[User:M. Butterfly|M. Butterfly]] 16:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Some thoughts on the civilian section ===

many things are out of place in this section. First, the following piece:

:"On 25 July 2006 a UN peacekeeping force was hit by Israel rocket fire, prompting UN Secretary General Kofi Annan to charge, "I am shocked and deeply distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting by Israeli defence forces of a UN Observer post in southern Lebanon that has killed two UN military observers, with two more feared dead."[83] Daniel Ayalon, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., responded, "This kind of rhetoric is deplorable — For anyone to jump into conclusions I think this is not a good way to conduct international diplomacy. … This is shocking that anyone, especially of that stature, somebody who has been in Israel, someone who knows our morals, who knows the conduct of the military … For him to level this accusation that it was deliberate, this is just outrageous and shocking, and I hope that he will apologize for that."[84] UNIFIL added that they believe Israeli forces continued to fire at close range even during the rescue operation.[85]"

Belongs in the "attacks on UN forces" section, and should be embedded there.

Second, both the "Claims of phosphorus incendiary bomb use by Israeli forces" and the "Attacks on ambulances by Israeli forces" should be embedded in the "by Israel" section (either as subsections, or even in the text itself, as they are not very long and at least one of them repeats info that was already on top).

Third, The "Opinions on civilian attacks" should be the last section of this section, after the UN attacks.

Fourth, I believe that the AFP report (now that it's confirmed) should not be in the same paragraph as the Israeli position, as it is somewhat contradictory; maybe move it somewhere else.

I would have made the changes myself, but as the topic is controversial, I will wait for commemnts on this talk page before making any changes. [[User:M. Butterfly|M. Butterfly]] 16:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Maps==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Maps]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Maps]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive6#Maps]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Maps]]

** Requests / Map of Arab-Israeli Conflict / list of locations hit?

** Requests of a map of Israeli incursions. We have a map of targets hit by Al-Muqawama al-Islamiyya/Hezbollah and it would be nice to see a map of incursions made by the IDF. --[[User:Klepas|Klepas]] 11:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

*Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 20:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about the status of the article==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the status of the article]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about the status of the article]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive3#Discussion about the status of the article]]

*[[Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive6#Discussion about the status of the article]]

===Vandalism===

due to continued vandalism, I put sprotected. Please do not remove, and if removed, replace. Already the page is no longer NPOV, and its quality has decreased significantly (I mean, removal of news sources???) because of what amounts to vandalic activity by anonymous user(s).--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 05:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

: What specific vandalism are you talking about? [[User:Bibigon|Bibigon]] 05:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:: I suspect he didn't like my edit (@05:36) and suffered a massive over-reaction. What ever happened to [[Not biting the newcomers]]? --[[User:84.193.50.72|84.193.50.72]] 06:01, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:: To elaborate, I did not remove any news source whatsoever. Just removed a bit of indeed a very long quote. --[[User:84.193.50.72|84.193.50.72]] 06:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I didn't mention you, if you feel bitten, I apologize. I haven't given a detailed list, but I did give one example, and if it doesnt apply to you, I dont understand how do you feel aluded to? --[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]]

~

:: To elaborate, I did not remove any news source whatsoever. Just removed a bit of indeed a very long quote. --[[User:84.193.50.72|84.193.50.72]] 06:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

:::No you didn't, but you did move this thread without reason leading me to belive it was deleted as I was replying. Bad form.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 06:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I put 3 comment in this page about Israeli casualties and all of them were removed.--[[User:Sa.vakilian|Sa.vakilian]] 06:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There you go again... erasing things from the talk page. Only the most insecure and small are unable to deal with criticism - but that's what I've come to expect from some the administrators on this page. All hail censorship!

Tag was gone... Tag is back ;) --<b><font color="#006633">[[User:Deenoe|Deenoe]]</font></b> 03:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there seems to be some misunderstanding here ... only admins can protect pages. Cerejota and Deenoe, neither of you are admins. Putting the tag on the page just displays the tag, it doesn't actually change the protection status. I hope this explains everything. --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;cursor:w-resize;">'''Cyde↔Weys'''</span>]] 03:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Like I explained on your talk page, I know that. I thought the page was sprotected and that he was talking : if the tag is removed, put it back. --<b><font color="#006633">[[User:Deenoe|Deenoe]]</font></b> 03:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

You can always check the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=protect&user=&page=2006+Israel-Lebanon+conflict protection log] to see the current protection status. --[[User:Cyde|<span style="color:#ff66ff;cursor:w-resize;">'''Cyde↔Weys'''</span>]] 03:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the page should Sprotected right now due to recent immature vandalism. --<b><font color="#006633">[[User:Deenoe|Deenoe]]</font></b> 21:13, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it needs more than semi protection...... the image in the infobox is being changed constantly..... [[User:Ryanuk|Ryanuk]] 20:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe, but inevitably if a version of a page will be protected it will be [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version The Wrong Version]. --[[User:AceMyth|AceMyth]] 22:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

=== technical issues ===

Section editing is messed up. There are some reference errors that keep slipping in, and are hard to fix. Can't spot any now, but it was a pain to locate. [[User:Natalinasmpf|Elle <small>_{<font color="#CC9920">vécut heureuse</font>}</small> <small><font color="blue">^{à jamais}</font></small>]] ([[User talk:Natalinasmpf|Be eudaimonic!]]) 03:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

=== Locked? ===

The article should be locked. There is too much debate over so many small things. We don't want to get into a World war of edit battles! I urge the admins overlooking this to please lock it! Thank you. [[User:Wikizach|<font color="red">Wiki</font>]][[WP:EA|<font color="green">e</font>]]Zach| [[User talk:Wikizach|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 03:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:Debate is good, shows other viewpoints and comments. But, if it is vandalism, then it isn't. So far, I've not come across any blatant vandalism here though. --[[User:Terrancommander|T]][[User:Terrancommander/Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[User:Terrancommander|rran]][[User talk:Terrancommander|comm]][[Special:Contributions/Terrancommander|and]][[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<font color="green">e]]</font>[[Wikipedia:Concordia|r]] 04:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::There has been some vandalism today and there is a pending request for this page to be semi-protected. Whether or not that will happen, I'm not sure. I certainly did put a note in favor of semi-protection. [[User:Davidpdx|Davidpdx]] 04:41, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:The war of words rages just as the war on the ground does. Not surprised here. [[User:ObsidianOrder|ObsidianOrder]] 05:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Full Protection is needed here. There are many vandals as well as users like lorek85 who pretend to be neautral, but don't seem to respond to the claims of lack of neutrality. the main image in this article right now is POV as long as there isn't a corresponding image, or a half-split image showing damage from the other side of the conflict. --[[User:Dberliner|Dberliner]] 10:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:::The current image is not POV. You dont need a split image to be neutral, look at [[Six Day War]] or [[Yom Kippur War]]. {{User:Rangeley/sig2}} 13:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::At least they dont pose to be wikipedia administrators like certain other individuals (rolleyes). '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 12:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'''

ArmanJan, I'm afraid I can not, nor an admin, ever cure your bitterness which I'm afraid will last for a while longer, because we know that your edits won't really change the works of the world, maybe just waste 2 seconds of a true Wikipedian's time.

as for FightCancer's comment below, I know this is quite extreme in the Wikipedia community, but this page has become a battleground of war, it is not serving its purpose as a medium of knowledge. This has to be done IMO until the situtation calms down. --[[User:Dberliner|Dberliner]] 16:36, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:I disagree. Locking the article would abolish everything Wiki stands for, IMO. [[User:FightCancer|FightCancer]] 14:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::I am sure you don't Dberliner, but before you continue calling me anymore names and what not, take a good look at [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks]]. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 17:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)'''

You really have no shame, ha? You claimed I'm posing as an admin (although very ingeniously without mentioning my nick), and now you refer me to the personal attacks page. Well, I can use that very particular incident as a very good example of a microcosm to the whole occurrences of the events unfolding, but i'll refrain from that and keep my dignity. [[User:Dberliner|Dberliner]]

===Semi-protection: Restore===

I think that semi-protection should be restored due to vandalism. I already added my request at [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection#2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict_.28edit.7Ctalk.7Clinks.7Chistory.7Clogs.29]].

[[User:Hello32020|Hello32020]] 19:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

==Discussion about the talk page==

===Earlier discussions===

*[[Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about the talk page]]

Whew. After a lot of work, I've refactored the page, archived about 200kb of it, and split out the discussion on the two largest sections into separate pages. And the talk page is STILL too big! (though 50kb isn't nearly as bad as 300kb). Is this format O.K with everybody? --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 02:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::No it isn't. It's a total mess. Just archive the conversations from here on out. ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 15:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC))

=== The discussion refractoring on this page is a total mess ===

Whoever did the work: good effort, bad judgement. Just about killed the conversation about images by moving the page to some obscure ___location. Just archive the discussion like you would on any other page. Thanks. ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 15:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC))

I did. And the page was still well over 150kb. The section on photos alone (after archiving round one!) was 70kb. I didn't want to archive current discussions. I thought by separating it out, we could keep discussions going longer without archiving. The photos section on its own is now over 30kb, and this page is already over 100kb. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 00:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

== I am GOING THERE! ==

If you don't know I am a reporter for [[CNN]]. I am planning to travel to Tel-Aviv and then go north on Monday. I will be taking Delta Air Lines 152, for about 11 hours. I will depart at 10:45pm and get there around 530pm. I will give updates as they happen! [[User:Wikizach|<font color="red">Wiki</font>]][[WP:EA|<font color="green">e</font>]]Zach| [[User talk:Wikizach|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 22:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice! Will you take pictures so we can do the composite pictures without copyright issues? ;p --<b><font color="#006633">[[User:Deenoe|Deenoe]]</font></b> 23:33, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

*We definitely need more your pictures.--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 23:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

:Dont get yourself killed there.[[User:Cameron Nedland|Cameron Nedland]] 00:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

::Ok. I will take pictures and will be careful. Thanks for caring. [[User:Wikizach|<font color="red">Wiki</font>]][[WP:EA|<font color="green">e</font>]]Zach| [[User talk:Wikizach|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 02:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Sure no problem.[[User:Cameron Nedland|Cameron Nedland]] 02:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

:Change of flight plans. Could leave tonight. [[User:Wikizach|<font color="red">Wiki</font>]][[WP:EA|<font color="green">e</font>]]Zach| [[User talk:Wikizach|<font color="#461B7E">talk</font>]] 20:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a blog. Also, stay safe. ([[User:Btipling|Bjorn Tipling]] 03:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC))

*If you have a spouse, then it won't get stipends if you die unless you're a Muslim and become a martyr.

Though, in Islam, only females get paid provided that they dress like mullahs + headscarf instead of a turban.

<It's called humor.>--[[User:Patchouli|Patchouli]] 04:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Patchouli: get a blog and post your "humor" there.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 04:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Cerejota, quit being such a cry-baby. --[[User:NoRCaLD503|NoRCaLD503]] 04:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== Front Line Photographs Section - concerns re clear breach of NPOV ==

This section is in clear breach of the Wiki NPOV guidelines. I see nothing encyclopedic about pushing blatant Hezbollah propaganda websites. Its not only against NPOV policy I think its almost spamming!! User Ilike2beanonymous is reverting more than 3 times and an admin should take a close look at his/her work please[[User:203.15.73.3|203.15.73.3]] 05:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:I disagree. The links are to websites with unedited photographs that cannot be published in Wikipedia as per policy, but are relevant to this page. If you are upset that they show only Lebanese children dead, please post links to websites showing pictures of Israeli children dead.

:Policy doesn't require that the websites we link to be NPOV, but that they be relevant. And these websites are the very definition of relevant.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 05:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Indeed. I'm completely with Cerejota on this one. Those pictures (while very disturbing) are pictures of the damage. It'd be nice to have some of the damage in Israel, but in no way are they POV. (Apart from the POV that killing and injuring people is bad). --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 05:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:This is an outrageous misrepresentation of these relevant Israeli and Lebanese blogs, none of which have a thing to do with Hezbollah and in fact are highly critical of their actions. Here is one [http://beirut2bayside.blogspot.com/2006/07/nasrallahs-delusion.html example], pointing to a [[Fouad Ajami]] analysis of Nasrallah's decision in the [[Wall Street Journal]]. Even if there were any "blatant Hezbollah propaganda" (please do show us some), these blogs have been an important aspect of the story, and have been mentioned and featured in numerous news reports. Furthermore, just about every Wikipedia article has pointers to such blogs and website if '''they are relevant.''' The graphic images are from the news services: compare the images on the website [http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3 stopdestroyinglebanon.com] to this ''[http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=w071541A Macleans]'' article. These images are highly relevant, and anyone who believes that these images are fabricated is living in a fantasy world, or worse. The relevant blogs and images should stay. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:The issue is not whether or not the images are fabricated. It's about reliable sources. Correct information may sometimes occur in unreliable sources.--[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 13:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::Therefore, we should delete links to relevant blogs and images here and throughout every other Wikipedia article? [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Exactly. Unless they are reliable sources. And we can't verify their accuracy without doing original research. -[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 14:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::''[[Reductio ad absurdum]]''. I'll agree then that we should delete these relevant web links just as soon as Wikipedia institutes this to be its official policy and declares that such links are to be deleted from every Wikipedia article. Until that day, the relevant blogs and images should stay in this article. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 14:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove without discussion.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 07:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

: A user alleged [[WP:EL]] and [[WP:RS]] violations, but failed to list them here, and furthermore, I don't see them.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 07:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::"unverified original research" ([[WP:EL]]) Refers to [[WP:RS]]: "At the other end of the reliability scale lie personal websites, blogs, bulletin boards, and Usenet posts, which are typically not acceptable as sources." --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 07:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::The pictures aren't being used as sources, just links, and therefore don't fall under [[WP:RS]]. They come under "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as textbooks." As for removing the blogs, I've no mind either way. I can see arguments for both sides on that one.--[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 08:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::No sorry, the principle of verifiablity is fundamental and applies to external links as well. It's OK to link to opinion sites if they are "prominent sites" (i.e. major web sites) that clearly (verifiably) represent the sides in a conflict, e.g. an official Hezbollah site and an official IDF site. (In this case they are reliable sources of opinions.) Are you really comparing these websites to scientific textbooks? Perhaps you're just joking? --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 08:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::In the external links that are "normally to be avoided", I can only see arguments for ''"Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research. (See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for further information on this guideline.)'' but they are photos, not random ideas and loony ramblings. And yes, I'm comparing them to scientific textbooks, because, as I quoted, they both provide "meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article". You don't think firsthand pictures of the destruction are relevant? But hey, show me the official IDF page that shows the damage caused by bombing on both sides, and I'll gladly support that for inclusion. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 09:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Meaningfull relevant content? I'd rather say fabricated, randomly compiled propaganda. --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 09:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::From my comment above: The graphic images are from the news services: compare the images on the website [http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3 stopdestroyinglebanon.com] to this ''[http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=w071541A Macleans]'' article. These images are highly relevant, and anyone who believes that these images are fabricated is living in a fantasy world, or worse. The relevant blogs and images should stay. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Fine, leave them out. While I have no doubt the vast majority of the photos are real, I can't prove it. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 09:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::Adam, the issue is not whether or not the images are fabricated. It's about reliable sources. Correct information may sometimes occur in unreliable sources, but we can't verify their accuracy without doing original research. These are fundamental Wikipedia policies.([[WP:RS]][[WP:V]][[WP:NOR]]) --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 14:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::None of these wise policies applies to identifying the existence of commentary or information outside of Wikipedia, which is all these links do, just like every other Wikipedia articles with such pointers. If something in the main article was based on these blogs or images, then you would have a point, but this is not the case. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 14:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::The links are inside Wikipedia. That's the whole point. Please read what the policy says: "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research. (See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for further information on this guideline.)" "Unverified" is defined by [[WP:RS]] Also Wikipedia is not a web directory. People can find interesting links elsewhere or through a search engine. --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 15:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::As I said above, I'll agree then that we should delete these relevant web links just as soon as Wikipedia institutes this to be its official policy and declares that such links are to be deleted from every Wikipedia article. To prove my point that such links are an essential, useful, and relevant part of almost every single Wikipedia article, I'll just go at random to today's featured article, [[Lastovo]]. Oh look! It too has a section of [[Lastovo#External_links|External_links]]. Until the day that all such links are deleted from Wikipedia, the relevant blogs and images should stay in this article. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::::You may disagree with Wikipedia policies as much as you like, but if you are to edit articles here you must follow them anyway. It ''is'' offical policy already. It's just that you don't care. And the policy says that yes, we can have many external links, but not links to sites that contain "unverified original research". What is it you don't understand?--[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 17:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::::Please return the courtesy of responding to the content of my statements, which refute your application of these wise Wikipedia rules to pointing out the existence of outside information, just as is done in almost every other Wiki article. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 17:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::"Yes we may have external links". This quote from my previous reply means there ''may'' be many links to "outside information", as you call it. But not all ''types'' of websites should be linked to. Clear? --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 17:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::The rules you cite pertain to sources used within the article. A bland assertion of the fact, with pointers, that other information exists outside Wikipedia, is commonplace. In fact, in your own deletions of this information ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65510368 Revision as of 07:15, 24 July 2006], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65519006 Revision as of 08:54, 24 July 2006], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65544808 Revision as of 12:59, 24 July 2006]), you left several other websites alone—websites which could just as well be argued to be unverifiable and original research. The fact that you appear to wish to apply Wikipedia's rules unevenly opens the question if there are other reasons unrelated to Wikipedia policy behind the push to delete all reference to relevent blogs and images from the war. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 18:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::The rules I cite apply to external links, I'm not going to say this again. I've already provided relevant quotes. Please read them. I removed some links that ''obviously'' didn't conform to Wikipedia standards. It's quite possible that I should have removed more. If you find any, don't hesitate to delete them yourself. --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 18:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::You merely cited rules without explaining why they apply to the mere mention of the existence of external blogs and photography. Based on your arguments, we must delete mention of the existence of any external link whose veracity cannot be verified. For example, here are the external links to [[Scientology#External_links|Scientology]], which includes the critical [http://www.xenu.net/ Operation Clambake]. According to your application of Wikipedia's rules, this link should be deleted, an action I can guarantee would be immediately reverted. And for good reason: it's relevant, informative, and provides plausible and reliable information. Can't you see that the solution to this problem is to have a place for frontline Israeli and Lebanese blogs, and let the Wikipedians decide for themselves which blogs stand up to the test of providing relevant, plausible, and reliable information? If someone deletes a blog that is tendentious or crummy, I sure won't stand up for it. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater: there are excellent websites in Israel and Lebanon providing a realtime perspective of the facts on the ground—a pointer to these belongs in a free and open encyclopedia. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 19:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::::::Skip your cheap [[strawman]] rhetoric. Read what I've ''actually'' written above. Then read the official policies. Then apply them. --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 19:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::::::: Actually, I have read what you wrote and AdamKesher is not doing [[strawman]]. He in simply using analogy, bordering periously, but not quite on [[ad absurdum]].

::::::::::: But he raises a valid point: since both sites you want deleted in reality contain pictures from press agencies and independent witneses, of news worthy events, of relevance to the page, I think you are substituing productive discussion of differences with name calling and [[wikilawyering]].

::::::::::: I think those links are extremely relevant, and any NPOV issues can be resolved by posting similar websites from the Israeli side.

::::::::::: If these links are not included soon, I am raising a call for informal moderation of an editing dispute. This is the first real time I have seen outright genuine line-in-the-sand resistance to the inclusion of information here, regardless of POV.

:::::::::::I hope it doesn't come to that, but having read the arguments I remain completely, absolutely, 100% unconvinced that these links violate any Wikipedia policy, or that they are not relevant for inclusion and increase article quality.

:::::::::::The only issue I consider valid is the one regarding POV, but this is easy to resolve by including Israeli POV websites with similar content. If our interests is actually a quality article, I think we should all understand that showing some unbalancing while puting out news is more important than hiding and censoring news, as long as no policies are violated.

:::::::::::This is why I have tried to stay away from the "infobox picture" edit conflict: I care very little about that particular item, because it is ultimately irrelevant, whereas more important stuff, like having NPOV presentation, and having balance when needed, merit much more attention. Such as providing links to photos of civilian deaths in Lebanon, , just like photos of Israeli civilians dead are an undeniable, NPOV fact, and we must make every effort to include links to websites with them.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 20:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Can I just make a simple point here: The section we are arguing about comes under '''"Links normally to be avoided"'''. Point out where it says we can't use them.

And for another point, lets look at the [[WP:RS]] that we're debating.

* ''Do the sources have an agenda or conflict of interest, strong views, or other bias which may color their report? Remember that conflicts of interest are not always explicitly exposed and bias is not always self-evident. '''However, that a source has strong views is not necessarily a reason not to use it,''' although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront.org or Al-Qaeda. Groups like these may be used as primary sources only as sources about themselves or about their viewpoints, and even then with caution and sparingly.

* Were they actually there? Be careful to distinguish between descriptions of events by eyewitnesses and by commentators. The former are primary sources; the latter secondary. Both can be reliable. (They are photos, so yeah, they were there.)

* Find out what other people say about your sources.

* Have they reported other facts reliably, including on different subjects? Cross-check with what you already know.

* Are the publications available for other editors to check? We provide sources for our readers, so they must be accessible in principle, although not necessarily online.'' (The photos match other news sources).

To sum up, I see not one reason why those links can't be there. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 23:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Therefore, is it now time to restore these links to relevant and timely information within the article? I propose that this be done, and will do so soon if I do not hear any substantive counter arguments to delete this information. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 10:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Definitely, but I doubt it will be long before someone removes them, possibly even citing this very discussion as evidence to 'support' them. :( --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 10:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:I'll make one final attempt to clear this out. No Cerjota, this isn't [[wikilawyering]]. No Iorek85, that's not the only relevant section. Yes AdamKesher, the arguments are substantive.

:(1) If someone wants do find these sites, it's very easy. [http://www.google.com Google] for example. Wikipedia isn't a web directory. We should never include websites just because we think they are "relevant" or "informative".

:(2) These websites are not [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] Some images and descriptions may be accurate and others not. It's obviously ''impossible'' to [[WP:V|''verfiy'']] if the information on these websites is accurate or not without doing [[WP:NOR|original research.]]

:(3) They can't be included as opinion sites (as Cerjota seems to suggest). When such sites are included, they must be "prominent" (not blogs and the like), there must be balance, and the POV of each site should be clearly stated. It must be possible to [[WP:V|verify]] which POV the website actually represents.

:Why is this so difficult to understand? --[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] 11:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

::We understand, just disagree.

::(1) - That's exactly '''why we should''' link them. They provide a unique sorce, they are relevent, they are informative, and they directly relate to the article. If those aren't good reasons to link to the sites, I don't know what you think is.

::(2) - That covers, I'm afraid, almost every site that is linked to on wikipedia. Have you double checked the BBCs facts? Some people don't think IMDB is a reliable source. Some people don't think Al Jazeera is a reliable source. We don't have to check every site to link to for accuracy (a) because we're not using them for references: and (b) because thats why we link to them - its our way of saying, every time - "this website says". There are no websites that you can absolutely guarantee are 100% accurate. Thats not a reason never to link them. And, even if you consider these websites less trustworthy than CNN, say (and I'd agree with you) the exceptional relevent nature of them counters that.

::(3) - What is the opinion? Killing civilians is bad? They aren't opinion sites; they are collections of photographs. Even if they were, the bolded section in my quote shows we can, if they are important, link them. And, prominent? ''"although editors should avoid using political groups with widely acknowledged extremist views, like Stormfront.org or Al-Qaeda."'' that guideline seems to completely disagree. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 11:30, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:As there are no new arguments against including relevant links to frontline blogs and photographs, I have included these in the [[2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict#External_links]]. I did some quick editing from previous lists to just include those that appeared (to me) to be the highest quality and/or most relevant to current events. I also included a new Israeli and Lebanese blog. I hope that this section doesn't turn into a link dump -- please don't abuse this section -- it should represent links to the most relevant and well written commentary on this conflict. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 12:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

::There are arguments against it. please. don't add blogs. --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 12:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::We discussed [[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]]'s arguments, and dispatched them to my satisfaction, and apparently others' too. You characterized these links above as "fabricated, randomly compiled propaganda." On what basis do you say this? I find every single link included to have relevant and plausible information, appropriate for an article discussing an ongoing event. What are your arguments against including these links to relevant and plausible frontline information from Israel and Lebanon? Until you step up and provide a convincing argument, please refrain from deleting information from the article. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 12:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::: You did not discuss anything. Mainly because there were no 'others'. This are not a frontline information because it's written not by someone who is doesn't know a thing. they full of emotion and hatred. --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 13:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::We have been discussing this for over a day now, and longer in edit comments. Where were you? Exactly what "emotion and hatred" are you referring to? I've included all the links below. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

For the record, here are the links under question.

'''BEGIN'''

'''Frontline blogs'''

'''Israeli blogs'''

* [http://muqata.blogspot.com/ The Muqata جميل في المقاطعة], Israel@War: Special Edition at the [[Mukataa|Mukataa blog]]

* [http://kishkushim.blogspot.com/ Kishkushim], written mainly by Carmia, a resident of Haifa.

* [http://pixane.net/blog/ Idan Gazit] a New York born Israeli immigrant.

'''Lebanese blogs'''

* [http://bloggingbeirut.com/ bloggingbeirut.com]

* [http://electronicintifada.net/v2/live-from-lebanon.shtml Live from Lebanon diaries]

* [http://beirutspring.blogspot.com Beirut Spring]

* [http://www.google-kai.com/radio_blog/?cat=3 Kai blog]

* [http://codedemigod.com/blog/ Alaa Salman of Beirut]

* [http://welcometomydream.blogspot.com/ Lebanese Dream]

* [http://lebop.blogspot.com/ Lebanese Political Journal]

* [http://beirut-war2006.blogspot.com/2006/07/report-from-beirut-2.html beirut-war2006.blogspot.com], a Canadian freelancer working in Beirut

* [http://beirutupdate.blogspot.com/ beirut update], a Lebanese civilian in Beirut.

'''Frontline photographs (Warning: Extemely graphic wartime imagery)'''

* [http://fromisrael2lebanon.com/ From Israel To Lebanon] — Graphic photographs of civilian targets and casualties

* [http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3 stopdestroyinglebanon.com] — Graphic photographs of civilian targets and casualties

* [http://www.al-jabr.net/Photos/ www.al-jabr.net/Photos] — Les images de la nouvelle guerre ouverte entre Israël et le Liban (''aux Français'')

* [http://abaleboosteh.blogspot.com/ Images of war in Israel]

'''END'''

[[User:Tasc|tasc]], you have deleted this information twice without discussing it. If this dispute cannot be resolved by civil discussion, we will have to go to the next step. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Cool, you've got some frontline photos from Israel too. Nice work, that should balance out the complaints of POV. Even less of a reason to delete them now. As for the blogs, they're important enough for [http://blogs.news.com.au/news/news/index.php/news/comments/blogging_the_war/ news.com.au], I think they can stay in the article. Blogs, while I personally think they are overrated, do in this case provide a unique and important and relevant insight into the conflict. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 13:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And the first blog, the [[Mukataa|Mukataa blog]], has its own entry here on Wikipedia, as does just about every other blog that people find to be relevant and informative ([[RedState]], [[Daily Kos]], etc.). This debate is obviously not about pointers to blogs on Wikipedia, but the desire to censor the information contained there. In the absence of a reasoned argument why these links should not appear, I'm reverting their deletion. Please refrain from deleting relevant information from the article without discussing it first. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 13:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] has deleted these links without discussion ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65757164 13:55, 25 July 2006 Denis Diderot (Talk | contribs) (rv to Dominick per talk)]), and claims in his comments that this talk page is the basis for his edits when in fact the dispute is ongoing and we have been asking for reasoned, substantiated arguments from both [[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] and [[User:Tasc|tasc]], to no avail. I have done my best to resolve this issue with civil discussion on this talk page, and have now referred the matter to Wikipedia's informal moderation: [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-25 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]]. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 15:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:I note here that [[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] has again [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65947240 deleted these links] without discussion here, yet in his edit comments asserts that this has been done per the Talk page. This dispute is currently under information moderation: [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-25 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]]. I will revert this deletion once today. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 12:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::I note the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&oldid=65949736 deletion of these links] by [[User:Denis Diderot|Denis Diderot]] without discussion either on this talk page or the page of informal mediation given above. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 12:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

'''Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files''', [[wp:not]], [[wp:el]].

Specificaly, "Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. However, there are exceptions, such as in cases where the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or where the website is of a particularly high standard." and "In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.".

Unless the article is citing something, then we have to adress it by our standards for a simple external link. And those standards are high, with good reason. There is no reason to overide the style guide in this case. Blogs and 'news agrigators' should not be linked to. While they are blogging the conflict, our article is not closely tied to giving information on blog reporting, so they do not satisfy the requirments. --[[User:Barberio|Barberio]] 13:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Thank you for pointing to the policy in dispute so clearly. The links under question are:

:*closely related to the article itself

:*argued to be of a high standard (web collectives of writers, compendiums of news agency photos, etc.)

:*providing a unique resource of frontline observations beyond what the article can provide

:These are all excellent reasons to provide these links, which are not a random dump of links somebody added, but argued to possess the qualities above. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 15:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::I'll adress each of your points,

::* While the blogs are closely related to the subject of our article, the subject of our article is *not* closely related to the blogs. And the requirement is the article's subject being close to the blogs. For instance, an article on [[Oxford University]] would not link to an Oxford Student's blog, despite that blog being closely related to the University.

::* Blogs are inherently lower standard, having no peer review or editing. Note that the examples given do have peer review, while blogs and 'news agrigation services' generaly do not. They also generaly provide repetition of opinions and views ''already identified and referenced in the article''.

::* Concerning the image sites and them being "a unique resource". One site is in french, so imediatly disqualified. One site is no longer present, so is moot. The other two sites have problems with verifiability, one being a blog site, and the other being from a politicaly motivated site. The pictures on one site appear to be taken, and without any apparent acknowledgments, from AP sources. This invalidates a claim of it being a unique resource. If you could identify a reliable and verifiable site that provided images of the conflict, for instance an accredited photo-journalist, a link would be suitable.

::The most important point to make is these sites are inherently unverifiable. They could be giving us an inside view, and images from the spot, or they could be written by someone in australia, and be cribbing their pictures from AP sources. So we have to question the quality of these links. --[[User:Barberio|Barberio]] 16:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::[[User:Barberio|Barberio]], thanks for your response and comments. Here are mine:

::*The purpose of these blogs is to provide a frontline account of the [[2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]]. For example, the first link is [http://muqata.blogspot.com/ The Muqata جميل في المقاطعة], Israel@War: Special Edition at the [[Mukataa|Mukataa blog]]. How can you say that this content is not immediately related to this article?[!] Your analogy with an Oxford student's blog doesn't hold up.

::*I'll leave it to the readers to decide which is higher quality—the blogs listed are web collectives of writers and, to my eye, have high standards—peruse them yourself and please tell me if you disagree.

::*As discussed above, every link that doesn't satisfy [[WP:V]] can be labelled as unverifiable, but that doesn't mean that mentioning its existence is prohibited, as you pointed out yourself in [[WP:EL]]. For example, the [[Scientology#External_links|Scientology external links]] includes the critical [http://www.xenu.net/ Operation Clambake], which does not satisfy [[WP:V]], yet there it is. Why? Because it satisfies the criteria for external links listed above, just as these blogs and external photographs do. Besides, it's simply not true that these photographs are not verifiable: they're press service photos, as you may verify yourself by comparing the images on the website [http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/WarOnLebanon/nfblog/?page_id=3 stopdestroyinglebanon.com] (this [http://stopdestroyinglebanon.com/Invasion/38.jpg one] in particular) to this ''[http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/news/shownews.jsp?content=w071541A Macleans]'' article. It's true that this AP photo exists elsewhere, but the compendium of these photos provides the unique resource. Finally, if the site [http://fromisrael2lebanon.com/ From Israel To Lebanon] is down now, it's most likely the target of web attacks or banning for the reality that it presents, as discussed [http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/lebanon-ban.htm here]; it will be back soon. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 17:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== edits by banned editor ==

This is a sock puppet of banned editor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=68.1.182.215

[[User:Zeq|Zeq]] 05:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Who is he a sockpuppet of? I note he's also been banned for 24hrs. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 05:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Alberuni#Final_decision]] - he opreates out of IP address in Atlanta Geogrgia but elsewhere as well. His style is very clear: blant anti-Israel propeganda.

== Citecheck / Tens of thousands of Israelis displaced? ==

In the sidebox it says that tens of thousands of Israelis have been displaced and then links to [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200301_2.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/22/AR2006072200301_2.html] as the source. Where on that page does it mention Israelis being displaced? This bit is the only part where it talks about displaced people:

<blockquote>Many were fleeing Aitaroun, Bint Jbeil and other cities following Israel's urgent evacuation orders to the 300,000 people who live south of the Litani, which runs roughly 25 miles north of the Israeli border.</blockquote>

Maybe the mention of displaced Israelis should be removed until a real source can be found and not just a make-believe one?--[[User:216.26.201.10|216.26.201.10]] 06:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

:I noticed this too and forgot to bring it up. I'm glad someone did. IMO the statistic should be removed until it can be cited. Similarly, if someone were to claim that 6 million Lebanese had been displaced, I would want a stat for that too. [[User:FightCancer|FightCancer]] 00:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I found a citation in http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-havoc19jul19,0,314217.story?coll=la-home-headlines in the 7th paragraph. If you think it is good enough, feel free to add it to the article. --[[User:Yono|Yono]] 03:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:Done. [[User:Edison|Edison]] 04:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

::Oops never mind I see the new reference.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 06:05, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, the Washington Post appears to have edited an article which said "tens of thousands of Israelis" had been displaced. A search now of their website for "tens of thousands of Israelis" yields "Israel Stages Operations in Southern Lebanon : Hezbollah Continues to Fire Rockets into Northern...

John Ward Anderson and Edward Cody (Edition) 07/22/2006 Article ...homes in the southern areas near the border with Israel and southern sections of Beirut that are Hezbollah strongholds. Tens of thousands of Israelis have fled the border regions of northern Israel to the center of the country, which so far has not been struck... " But when I read that article now, the section disclosed now by the search was not there any longer. It was there when I originally added the "tens of thousands" phrase to the infobox. Life gets more and more like "1984." I guess it pays to archive a copy of any article cited.[[User:Edison|Edison]] 04:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:This happens with CNN.com on a daily basis. Last week I used a source that was then changed, however searching for exact terms using their own search engine would bring the article up, even though the article no longer contained those words. Isn't there some kind of journalistic integrity thing about this, like they should say the article was modified or corrected? The NY Times does have an [[ombudsman]], but I doubt CNN does.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 05:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

== Iran's role isn't mentioned in the reference 185 ==

''Iran, Syria and Yemen have given support to Lebanon and Hezbollah.[185]''. In 186 Iran is mentioned but only by an US official. Iran has supported Hezbollah in the past and quite certainly does so here but I'd like to see a reference that confirms Irans support for Hezbollah. Secondly, 185 mentions ''Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Algerian, Sudan and Morocco'' as supporters (or rather that their cause was justified) of Hezbollah's current actions. -G3, 10:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:What exactly you want to see? Iran saying "yes, we are supporting hezbollah"? --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 12:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

==Just ban the vandals already!==

May we just report every user that vandalises the page and just get them banned immediately? Otherwise this shit will never end. The user [[User:Tasc|Tasc]] just [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&diff=65747575&oldid=65746945 reverted] an article on which we have reached a [[Talk:2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict/POV#Reaching_consensus_on_.22Beginning_of_conflict.22_section|consensus]]. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 12:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:NO. you haven't reach a consensus. you had a talk in some obscure ___location with another user. And now you're calling it a consensus. --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 12:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The article was here for a whole day, it was then moved to the POV section (like many other articles also get moved to other sections). You did not participate in all this time we were discussing the article, and that is not our fault. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 13:04, 25 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:Neither did dozens of editors. this is neither discussion nor consensus. And '''stop adding commercial and broken references'''!!!!!!!! --&nbsp;<strong>[[User:Tasc|tasc]]</strong>&nbsp;^{[[User talk:Tasc|words]]}_{[[Special:Contributions/Tasc|deeds]]} 13:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh, we're talking about it - theres a large section dedicated to it. Quite a few editors are talking about it. There is therefore definitely discussion. But you're right. There is no consensus. Either way. You don't have any consensus for deleting them any more than he does for keeping them. Shall we have a straw poll? Without checking, I'm guessing you're both pretty close to breaking the [[WP:3RR]], so be careful. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 13:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I am no where near breaking [[WP:3RR]]. However [[User:Tasc|tasc]] has been banned for edit wars before. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 13:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)'''

== Fork for deletion ==

Please note that I've placed the article [[The role of Iran and Syria during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict]] on [[WP:AFD]], for the reasons stated on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The role of Iran and Syria during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict|the deletion page]]. &mdash; [[User:Asbestos|Asbestos]] | [[User talk:Asbestos|<FONT COLOR="#808080">Talk </FONT>]] [[User:Asbestos/RFC|<FONT COLOR="#808080"><small>(RFC)</small></FONT>]] 14:41, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

== Someone has vandalized the article again ==

Most mentions of damage to Israel or ongoing Hezbollah rocket bombardment got removed again. Put the lock and POV tag back, please!

==Opinions on civilian attacks??==

To quote Juan Cole as an 'opinion' this issue is misleading and ridiculous. He is known for his support for Arab causes. It is like quoting someone from a Jewish lobby as an opinion without mentioning his background!!! that entire page is out of place should be deleted. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:62.0.139.87|62.0.139.87]] ([[User talk:62.0.139.87|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/62.0.139.87|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

:If that he is "known for his support of Arab causes" is a reason for his non-appearance in the article, shall we delete all references and comments from anyone at the IDF, who are of course notorious world-wide for their almost staunch support of Israel? Or can we just accept the fact that the article has properly wikilinked [[Juan Cole]], giving anyone ignorant of the guy the opportunity to investigate not only the cited source, but also the bonifides of the individual as well? Additionally, the reference appears to be quoted correctly and even relevantly. [[User:Mdf|mdf]] 20:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

::If its true that he is a staunch supporter of "arab causes" then he should be introduced as such. Introducing him as simply a professor when he has obviously had some one sided commentary and views is leaving out valuable information. Its almost like stating "Ehud Olmert, a lawyer, stated Hezbollahs actions are unjust." Where there is pertinent information, it should be included. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:29, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that this article is already very long, and the limited amount of space we have to present viewpoints should be devoted primarily to the participants. The views of Prime Minister Olmert and Sheik Nasrallah should definitely be presented. Views of NGOs like Human Rights Watch in areas of their expertise are OK to the extent that they are newsworthy (that is, when their press releases get picked up by major newspapers). We simply don't have room for the views of every professor, newspaper columnist, or blogger who has weighed in on this. [[User:Sanguinalis|Sanguinalis]] 01:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

These sentences are relevant and necessary to provide an analysis of possible reasons for the tactical and strategic reasons each side has in their now widespread attack on civilians. [[User:AdamKesher|AdamKesher]] 02:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== Am I the only one concerned with article quality?==

The introduction is kaput, the orignal strucute of the article (Background, Begining, Response) kaput. Subpages caput.

And it isnt only the expected POV wars, but also quality issue, spelling issues all kinds, structure issues, etc. I guess this is a call for editors to remember that we are trying to make an NPOV encyclopedia here, not some kind of news item. For that try [[WikiNews]]--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 21:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

== Mediation ==

The question of '''''what links should be present in the article''''' is currently in mediation by the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal|Cabal]]. Please come to the [[Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-25 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict|case page]] if you can comment on the issue. Also, other questions can be directed to mediation to be resolved with assistance of a third party. [[User:CP\M|CP/M]] ([[Wikipedia:Neutrality Project|Wikipedia Neutrality Project]]) 21:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Lets get it sorted out. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 09:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== User Hellznrg accusation of vandalism ==

[[User:Hellznrg|Hellznrg]] accused me of "stealth vandalism" for reverting to its more or less original, consensus form the intro paragraph of the article. I stated the reasons for the edit both here in talk and in the comments of the edit. I ask user Hellznrg to retract and apologize for his uncivil behaivior, and to pleas ein the future read and discuss in the talk pages before doing such a major, and controversial, edit.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 22:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

: and I ask you to resolve this in private talk, rather than clutter up this page even more. [[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== Salvage French ==

Can someone salvage this passage, if indeed the site is [[WP:RS|reliable]].

This is backed up by [[French]] [[website]], voltairenet.org, which stated on [[July 18]], [[2006]] that "''Here facts: Hezbollah requires since long years the release of prisoners held by Israel, such as Samir el Kantar, imprisoned since 1978, Nassim Nisr and Yahia Skaff which is imprisoned since 1982. In many occasion, it let know that the weather would not fail to be captive in its turn Israeli soldiers - if Ci-that-Ci had been suddenly introduced in Lebanon, and to use them like monnaire of exchange. In a deliberated way, Tsahal sent a commando in the Lebanese back-country to Aïta Al Chaab. It was attacked by Hezbollah, making two prisoners. Israel A then pretends to be attacked and attacked Lebanon. Hezbollah, which prepared to face an Israeli aggression that each one knew imminent since the Syrian withdrawal, drew from the intermediate-range missiles on Israel.''"<ref>{{cite news | title=Western news services agreeing victims of the Israeli military censure | date=[[2006-07-18]]| publisher=www.voltairenet.org| url= http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html}}</ref>, whilst the rest of the media stated the lies of the Israel. Israel has used this to justifed the bombing of Lebanon, which has resulted in the death of nearly 400 innocent civilians.

:My god, this is one the silliest things I've ever read. Made me crack up in the middle of my workplace. Where do you people get this stuff? Actually, I'm having A tough time understanding what the guy who wrote this really wants.... [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 13:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Article becoming a JOKE and a BLOG==

After seeing this article go back and forth within the matter of seconds over these past two weeks I am now of the opinion Wikipedia should not document "controversial" current events. Rather, these should be re-visited with the clearness and '''CALMNESS''' of '''hindsight'''. Fair dinkum - have a look at the list of references - its almost as long as the article - each one put there by someone trying to push their side of the story - rather than to show academic research of the topic. Its all a bit like school kids bickering in the playground: I'm right....no I'm right etc. For a start '''lets take it off the Wikipedia Main Page''', then Jimbo or the "wiki community" needs to think about whether a policy should be made about documentation of such contoversial current events. In this case we will never get consensus, just someone reverting more than someone else. [[User:203.15.73.3|203.15.73.3]] 04:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Consider that instead of posting here you might have researched the issue with numerous citations to back up your claim the and presented it to Jimbo or somewhere else on wikipedia where they discuss this stuff.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Oh well done Paraphelion - great contribution!! Just have a look at the top of this Talk page and there are calls for peer review etc etc. The article has turned into a blog, rather than something of encyclopedic value. The point was about writing the article with the benefit of HINDSIGHT, once everyone has calmed down, or as we say: had a bex and a good lie down!! Love to know why the original heading was changed - must have been too close to the truth hey?[[User:Jokeofanarticle|Jokeofanarticle]] 09:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I appreaciate the compliment, thanks. Your point is being well made as it is well referenced doesn't resemble anything anyone might find on a blod.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 10:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

So because it's not perfect, we shouldn't bother at all? --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 07:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::where did I complain about it not being perfect? And if you read what I said, I suggested we WAIT and write the article later on with some historical significance.[[User:Jokeofanarticle|Jokeofanarticle]] 09:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I got what you were saying. I'm saying just because an article on a current event isn't perfect, doesn't mean we shouldn't try. --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 10:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I agree with Iorek85. The article is in bad shape, but is nonetheless a useful resource and much better than no article at all. [[User:Sanguinalis|Sanguinalis]] 10:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::I agree, this article has become a joke. Israeli members (and anonymous users) have been deleting whole sections, references, changing casualties without reason, changing references to israeli news articles, etc, etc, etc. I gave up on this article, I will do nothing serious until this thing has calmed down. Right now it is useless to edit anything, it will be removed in a matter of seconds. '''[[User:ArmanJan|ArmanJan]] 10:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)'''

:::Indeed, every time I open this article it looks more like Anti-Israeli propoganda than the previous time, and less and less like an ecnyclopedic article. Apparently, the anti-Israeli bloc on the net is a strong one, and obviously is very resolved on abusing the widespread popularity of Wikipedia in order to (as usual) make Israel look like a terrible monster who cares about nothing more than destroying the poor Lebanese. regardless of my Israeli POV, this article indeed looks like a joke. No one who actually knows anything will believe this. I have given up on this several days ago already, when it became apparent that there are some wars you can't win, and some users who are really too persistent in their destrcutive and vandalistic efforts (and obviously have too much spare time on their hands). The only thing I update regularly is the casualty reports according to [[Magen David Adom]], who are the Israeli [[Red Cross]]. It consoles me a bit that no one has bothered to delete those as well....oh, and ArmanJan - let me just say - Hahahahaha - you and your "friends" are one of the main reasons the article looks like this. Shame for Wikipedia. [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 10:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I've just stumbled on this article and have only just read it for the first time a couple of minutes ago. Let me give you all my very first thought: It's a bloody miracle that this article has survived in even a half-decent state - so congratulations to all that have made an honest attempt at NPOV editing. But I knew it was going to be too good to be true. It's lines like this one: "Attacks on civilians in Lebanon and Israel on the part of all combatants has been a major component in the conflict." that really gives the game away - a dishonest attempt at fair mindedness and impartiality, when in truth, it reminds me of a certain conflict in the Balkans in the 90s when one side was getting absolutely massacred and the other side was claiming that there were atrocities on both sides. One side is armed with popguns, and the other with the complete arsenal of a modern military state, and it shows. [[User:Pippu d'angelo|ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑]] - [[:scn:User talk:Pippu d'Angelo|<small>(waarom? jus'b'coz!)</small>]] 11:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

In three comments, we've had some people say that the article is too biased pro Israel, and some say too biased pro Lebanon. Which means in all probablity, it's pretty neutral. :) --[[User:Iorek85|Iorek85]] 11:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I have an opinion similar to 203.15.73.3. I don't believe there is any way to write an article on a "current event" without doing what amounts to original research according to Official Wikipedia Holy Script. Note the careful phrasing "amounts to" -- while it is possible in principle, according to a literal reading of the sacred policies, the practical effect in the end is "original research" when N sources are brought together in one place, and N is "sufficiently large" (as the mathematicians say). Compare the current article to [http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33566.pdf recent CRS report] on the business. Utterly, totally, 100% "original research" by WP standards, but nevertheless, far, far, more encyclopedic, informative, and even balanced. [[User:Mdf|mdf]] 12:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::If it's such a horrendously biased blog to you, why not offer a solution? Hell, be the solution. Otherwise, hunker in your bunker with all your citations until this blows over. Take a glance at [[Hitler]] and [[Hells Angels]] for articles long out of immediate events and still rife with controversy, and there's a good idea of how long you'll have to wait. Seems far better to slog on through for the glory of NPOV! Huzzah, Wikipedia, huzzah! [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 12:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Why not read what I wrote? If bias is the only problem, then the solution is obvious and trivial to implement. [[User:Mdf|mdf]] 13:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You could always take it to wikinews? [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 14:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==THE PICTURE COPYRIGHT SITUATION==

look at this picture.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Israeli_Soldiers_with_LB_Hezbollah_Flags.jpg]

This picture is got from NYtimes [http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/world/middleeast/26strategy.html?ei=5094&en=fb0bff9d0f02463f&hp=&ex=1153972800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all] and the copyright of what is pulished in this site shows anybody can't distribute it.[http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html]:

:''

Copyright Notice:

All materials contained on this site are protected by United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written permission of The New York Times Company or in the case of third party materials, the owner of that content. You may not alter or remove any trademark, copyright or other notice from copies of the content.

However, you may download material from The New York Times on the Web (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal, noncommercial use only. ''--[[User:212.6.32.3|212.6.32.3]] 13:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:And it can't be "fair use" because the content of the article is against the meanin that this picture shows."Israel Finding a Difficult Foe in Hezbollah ."[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/world/middleeast/26strategy.html?ei=5094&en=fb0bff9d0f02463f&hp=&ex=1153972800&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all]--[[User:212.6.32.3|212.6.32.3]] 13:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Agreed, this is not a neutral photo. Can we please agree on a neutral Photo? Why not just have the old map back with the lines on confruntation on it? [[User:Ryanuk|Ryanuk]] 13:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:The image is owned by Kai Pfaffenbach/Reuters, ''NYT'' licensed it for their article. The fair use justification is inadequate as the commercial value of this image is diminished by its prominent placement in Wikipedia. It is a neutral photo, however, what 212.6.32.3 refers to is ''NYT'''s reporting. ˉˉ^{[[User:Anetode|'''anetode''']]}[[User_talk:Anetode|╦╩]] 14:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

=="Disproportionate" vs "Retaliatory""==

Just to note that I think the use of either of these words is probably best avoided w.r.t to NPOV. [[User:Aprogressivist|Aprogressivist]] 14:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Agree.

==WTF?!==

"Some" user has been [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3A2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict&diff=65928205&oldid=65925653 removing peoples contribution to the talk page], this is TOTALY unaccapatable!

Here is my part again:

----

''' white phosphorous'''

Guys, im not involved here, so im just droping the info: is Israel is using [[white phosphorous]] that targets that include children [http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/250706ethniccleansers.htm]? Is that not a serious war crime? Is that not CNN? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Because it's not very clear, what I assume he is referring to is the linked youtube clip from CNN in that article. Direct link to CNN clip : [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBWRJ4JCacE]--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 07:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, they are again and still targeting sivilian ambulances [http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/260706attack.htm]. Yes, Again and still [http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/israel0502-08.htm][http://shr.aaas.org/aaashran/alert.php?a_id=212] [http://www.hrea.org/lists/hr-health-professionals/markup/msg00007.html]! Imagin Muslims doing this... --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:''"If the peace option fails because of Israeli arrogance, there will be no other option but war," Saudi state television quoted the king as saying in an official statement. [http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/260706fullscale.htm] --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 02:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

----

Also, see [http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/260706Annan.htm Annan calls attack 'deliberate targeting'], and [http://infowars.net/articles/july2006/260706deaths.htm China agrees] --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 14:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A article about "Myths" and "proportions" [http://infowars.net/articles/july2006/260706Myths.htm]. Good reading for anyone editing this article. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 16:29, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::White phosphorus is not a war crime, and is not a chemical weapon. It is the main ingredient in vacuum bombs, that Israel uses to destroy Hizbollah buildings. there are no major conventions that denounce use of white phosphorus. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Protocol III of that convention on conventional weapons whatever covers incindiary weapons. However as pointed out above since its not being used to target civilians or soldiers its use doesnt violate anything. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and btw, Striver, what is the point of putting those 3 links here? They are completely off topic, and just serve as anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist, and to an extent anti-Semitic propoganda --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 20:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Adding Links==

I just want to add

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hezbollah.htm to the end of the links section as it is a novel interpretation of the conflict and a good series of articles. The only rule about adding links is that they cannot be commercial, they cannot be one's own website, and the amount of links that support one side of an argument cannot outweigh the more mainstream view. None of these rules will be broken. [[User:81.129.153.28|81.129.153.28]] 14:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:This link would not be acceptable, "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research. (See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for further information on this guideline.)" see [[wp:el]] for the full requirments. I originaly removes links to hirhome.com as it appears to be be an editorial, and makes some leaps of logic when making conclusions, nor is it an accredited media source. hirhome.com simply appears to be the personal opinion blog of Francisco Gil-White, presented as if it were a 'research institute', and thus fails the 'no blogs' rule as well. --[[User:Barberio|Barberio]] 15:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

If the "no blogs rule" still holds, then why are there about 20 different actual blogs in the links section then? Secondly, whether you believe there to be leaps of logic, there are in fact footnotes for every single claim made in every single article, which supports the idea that it is a reputable source, despite not agreeing with the mainstream view. Furthermore, the external links section seems a perfect place for other viewpoints, after all wikipedia is supposed to present a balanced view, not simply a one-sided one. How about if I add the link, but clarify that it is an opinion piece? [[User:81.129.153.28|81.129.153.28]] 16:48, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I think we should avoid using blogs in the links section. I already removed 3 before if you know of other please inform me so I can remove those as well. While I am not taking a side on this particular "source" I would like to point out that footnotes do not make a source reliable. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 17:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

: I support adding this link, but explaining it is a viewpoint. [[User:M. Butterfly|M. Butterfly]] 17:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

: I also support adding the link. perhaps we should split the external links into multiple sections - have a list of pro-israeli links, another for pro-hezbollah ones. putting the hirhome series on the current conflict under the pro-israeli banner would let people know in advance that it explains a viewpoint. also, in response to user zerofaults: hirhome is not a blog. if anybody is confused about what a blog is, go to wiki's own article on [[blog]] and note that blogs are characterized by 1) reverse chronological order of entries 2) trackback features and 3) user comments. hirhome has none of these features. [[User:Cmart1|Cmart]] 21:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Yeah HIR isn't a blog at all - it's a collection of pieces on current events and history in a scholarly style with references. If we separate the links as Cmart says then everyone will know very well exactly what kind of link they are going to, so I think we should just add it and divide the links into pro-Israel and pro-Hezbollah. [[User:Ryan4|<font face="Courier"><font color="darkblue">'''Ryan4'''</font></font>]]^{[[User_talk:Ryan4|Talk]]} 23:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== Where are the kidnapped soldiers? ==

I don't see anything about the 2 kidnapped soldiers in the info box.....Where did it go??? I'm adding them as it seems it was removed by vandals [[User:Tweekerd|Tweekerd]] 15:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:captured, not kidnapped.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 17:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== New page ==

...[[Ayta al-Sha`b incident]] created. ''Beginning of conflict'' paragraph shortened.--[[User:TheFEARgod|TheFEARgod]] 18:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

: That article will be deleted, becaues having an article for the beginning of a conflict, whose name alone supports one of the sides, is the most NPOV we saw in this debate. You have one hour to make modifications enough for me not to delete it, and merge it back with ''Beginning of Conflict'' [[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::You may want to avoid bossing people around, its a violation of WP:OWN. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 19:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I am just brining my intentions to everyone's attention and giving people opportunity to challenge them. If you think I am wrong in doing this, tell me why, and we'll continue discussion about it.[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Giving someone 1 hour to make a change when they may not even still be on or around their computer is the problem. As I said, bossing people around is the '''why'''. Since you do not own the article, you hardly have a right to give people a deadline to edit it by. I am not saying what you want to edit is wrong or right, just that you may want to avoid telling people what to do and by when. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::: So what do you propose I should have said? --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 02:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Partial revert completed. ''Begining of Conflict'' paragraph restored, [[Ayta al-Sha'b incident]] article is marked for deletion. The article was useless, and very heavy POV. We can continue arguing about it here.--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 20:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:HEY! My intetion was only to make this page less crowded!!!--[[User:TheFEARgod|TheFEARgod]] 22:59, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==United Nations combatant?==

It has become increasingly clear, as the conflict moves on, that the UN presence in Lebanon is engaging in military actions at a level similar to Lebanon itself, and that they are developing casualties, that latest four dead, but a number of wounded, some seriously.

Someone put these casualties under "Lebanon", but I think this is wrong because they are not Lebanese, they are UN, regardless of their nationality of origin.

I am removing these casualties form lebanon in the infobox, and are opening debate and opening a straw poll on including them as combatants in the encyclopedic entry. This means putting them in the infobox, and giving them a category of combatants in all sections, and having to include them for NPOV etc etc. This is not a light decision but one we must make to further article quality.

If you '''oppose''', please suggest an alternative to dealing with the UN involvement in combat. I dont feel the article is approaching this in a correct, structured way, that hightens article quality.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 18:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Straw poll on United Nations as combatant==

Please sign your name using four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>), and put two "<nowiki>**</nowiki>", under the position you support, preferably adding a brief comment. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion", though brief commentary can be interspersed. Follow my example in structure (althought, of course, NPOV requires I dont ask you to follow my lead in vote :P)--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 18:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

* '''Support'''

**[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] - I think the level and intensity of the involvement requires it.

** [[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 19:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**[[User:Hypnosadist|Hypnosadist]] 20:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC) - We Should create a UN and NGO combatant box but Mark this as NON-COMBATANT

**--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 21:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC) - weak support. if it's going to be there NGO could work to cover any red cross killings. Israel may say the UN deaths were an accident, whereas with Lebanese civilians they are tragic necessities or whatever euphamism of the day is used. However the red cross workers may fall into the latter category. This may be a good measure to determine what should go there - accident vs acceptable loss/collateral damage.--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 21:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

* '''Oppose'''

**Hmm. No. --[[User:TheFEARgod|TheFEARgod]] 18:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**What, are you fucking crazy? '''No.''' This is exactly the "POV" desired by the ultraright in Israel, that the U.N. is a collaborator with Hezbollah. Stands the whole concept of international law on its head.

:Doesn't the UN considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization?--[[User:Paraphelion|Paraphelion]] 21:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

*:To be a bit more useful: Mediators are generally not to be confused with combatants in a war. While it can be argued how effective or even evenhanded the U.N. is in this situation, it doesn't change the basic fact that their role is one of a nominally neutral third party. The fact that they've become combat victims also doesn't change their role to one of combatant either. +[[User:ILike2BeAnonymous|ILike2BeAnonymous]] 18:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**'''No.''' UNFIL are unarmed observers and some lightly-armed infantry, aiming to avoid armed confrontration. Hardly combatant material. [[User:Rwendland|Rwendland]] 19:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**'''No''' Reasons are in the discuss --[[User:Narson|Narson]] 19:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**'''No''' Hanging out, occupying, stationed - whatever you call it, it's not being engaged in violent conflict. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 19:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

**Of course, '''NO'''!

**'''No''' per above, the separate section for UN casualties as it is now is perfectly clear.

** --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 19:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC) - They are there in an observer role.

*Per above given reasons. {{User:Rangeley/sig2}} 19:38, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

*Of course not [[User:Geedubber|Geedubber]] 02:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

===Discussion on strawpoll===

I think we should do this for the same reasons we included Lebanon: the conflict is mainly between Hezbollah and Israel, but Lebanese civilians and troops have been engaged and developed casualties. So has the UN. I don't see any difference, but perhaps I am not considering something. As such I see no reason why not to do this.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 18:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:I definitely do not think we should include the United Nations as a combatant, they are not involved in the conflict at all. Similarly, the Canadian citizens that have died would not mean that Canada was a combatant. However, despite what I or anyone else thinks doesn't particularly matter. It's only if the United Nations is declared a combatatant that it should be added. [[User:MLA|MLA]] 18:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Erm, no one has declared Lebanon a combatant, which is my point: we are making an encyclopedia article, so we can strucutre the conflict as we see it.

:The situation with canadians dying in different than the UN. UN troops are armed for comabt operations, and control territory by military means.

:As to the comment of the UN allied to Hezbollah, well, that then makes them a combatant at the Level of Lebanon, doesnt it? I see no reason why we should include Lebanon while excluding the UN. Its exactlly the same situation.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 18:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Uhm. Lebanon is in because Lebanon is the 'host nation' so to speak for the conflict, the UN is neither an active participant nor is this taking place inside the UN buildings in Geneva or New York or anything like that. Neither UN nor Lebanese troops have been given orders to engage Israeli troops in Lebanon. (And before you mention the AA, trying to down planes violating your airspace has been common space and never labelled you as partaking in a conflict) --[[User:Narson|Narson]] 19:05, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:: Can we just keep "combatant" simple? [[Combat]] , armed conflict, not being under a bomb when it drops. Can we wait to put the UN in their own "Combatant" box until they do more than 1) unfortunately become killed and 2) accuse Israel of doing it on purpose. More, like say, particpating in combat.[[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 19:30, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::This is a very modern war with lots of sides, the international bodies that are on the ground are part of the conflict even if they are not shooting people and especially when they are dying in the combat. Ranieldule's arguement that you are only a combatant if you manage to kill someone is not the way the Geneva Convention sees it.[[User:Hypnosadist|Hypnosadist]] 20:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::I dont think your explanation fits either. The UN is not a combatant because they are not being targetted, nor are they targetting anything. THey are there in an observer role. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::I just want to clarify - you don't have to kill to be a combatant, merely attack another or defend oneself from attack (Lebanese AA fire makes me feel they are combatants). I don't even feel being targetted is enough. I agree though that this new "war" needs constant reappraisal of terms like these - although it does not (yet) make the UN a combatant. Observers, like the world press, even after being killed in the midst of violent conflict, are '''not''' engaged in combat. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 20:40, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Hi zero, i'm not saying they are fighting in this war, but the UN are participating in it hence why i think they should have a box but it be marked Non-combatants (ie not shooting people people).[[User:Hypnosadist|Hypnosadist]] 20:42, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::A fine idea - although I would hate to lose that fine combatant infobox. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 20:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== balance or truth ==

Last paragraph of the introduction

:''"Concerns have been raised regarding the targeting of civilian areas by both sides of the conflict."''

This sentence equates [[Hezbollah]]'s purposely targeting civilians and Israel accidentally killing civilians because Hezbollah hide among civilians. Even if you [[conspiracy theory|believe]] that Israel wants to kill civilians there is still no comparison between Hezbollah which admits to wanting to kill civilians and Israel who says that they don't want to kill civilians. This sentence put conspiracy theories on the same footing as statements made by Hezbollah! [[User:Jon513|Jon513]] 19:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Says Civilian areas. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 19:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::It's not a conspiracy theory - Israel is admittedly targeting civilian areas. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 19:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::No, Israel admits hitting civilian areas and Israel admits targeting alleged Hezbollah buildings/weapons/people which are (according to Israel) located/hidden in civilian areas. Israel does not admit targeting civilian areas. Target means the "goal" that one wants to achieve/destroy. Israel never said it wants to achieve as many dead civilians/destroy as much civilian infrastructure as possible. [[User:Sijo Ripa|Sijo Ripa]] 19:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::Actually, transport infrastructure is an exception. They have specifically said all road and highways, the airport, and seaports are targets. They justify it by saying that this is to limit Hezbollah's ability to move artillery and the captured soldiers, yet the fact is they declared transport infrastructure open season.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 20:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Even under civilian areas. Like parking lots - which are targeted to be blown clear through to the crunchy, Hezbollah nougat center. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 19:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::: I am officialy laffin my ass off... [[User:Cerejota/Bombing Lebanon to the crunchy, Hezbollah nougat center]]. Consider that the unofficial page for gallows humor on this conflict... feel free to contribute, and since its userspace, no need to have NPOV...

As to the actual heading, well, [[WP:V]] puts its stress in [[WP:V|verifiability not truth]] and [[WP:NPOV]] requires balanced presentation. So if your question is "balance or truth?" the unqualified wikipedia answer is: *balance*. DOn't like it? Discuss it int the talk pages of [[WP:V]], or leave wikipedia. But for better or worse thats the law of the land.--[[User:Cerejota|Cerejota]] 20:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:It's entirely verifiable that, whether one thinks it right, wrong, otherwise, Israel targets civiian areas - not for the purpose (they have stated) of killing Lebanese civilians, but all things Hezbollah. If your house is on top of Hezbollah, or next to it, that red circle gets drawn around you, too. So targeting of civilian areas works for both sides, even those who's express purpose is to not kill any civilians. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 20:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::What I was trying to explain is that neither party is reported by that sentence to be "targetting civilians." Targetting civilian areas yes, but there is a vast difference between the two. --<span style="font-family: Monotype Corsiva; font-size: 11pt">[[User:Zer0faults|<font color="Red">'''zero faults'''</font>]]</span> [[User_talk:Zer0faults/Archive_1#Signature|''<font color="Blue">^{<b>|sockpuppets|</b>}</font>'']] 20:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I completely agree. [[User:Ranieldule|Ranieldule]] 20:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Agreed. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 20:33, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

== Changes in AP story on July 12 ==

It seems that either AP ([[Joseph Panossian]]) substantially changed its story during the course of the day on [[July 12]], or local editors/publishers of the story did. As noted by [[Guerrilla News Network]]:

<blockquote>The Associated Press departed from the official version as well. '''“The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them,”''' reported Joseph Panossian for AP on July 12. “The forces were trying to keep the soldiers’ captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli government officials said on condition of anonymity.” [http://www.coanews.org/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=1136]</blockquote>

The first sentence quoted (my bold) is only present in early versions of the article: [http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html] [http://news.bostonherald.com/international/view.bg?articleid=148016]

Later in the day, the sentence had been changed to '''"Hezbollah militants crossed into Israel on Wednesday and captured two Israeli soldiers. Israel responded in southern Lebanon with warplanes, tanks and gunboats, and said eight of its soldiers had been killed in the violence."''' [http://www.wciv.com/news/stories/0706/343892.html] [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060712/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel_clash]

In another instance, on a less reputable site, AP apparently said: "Hezbollah said Wednesday its guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid, triggering Israeli airstrikes on southern Lebanon and widespread clashes along the frontier that killed two Lebanese civilians." [http://news.findlaw.com/ap/o/51/07-12-2006/affc0004539a4d5e.html] Hezbollah said that? Are you sure, [[FindLaw]]? No one else seems to have interpreteed the AP story that way. "Cross-border raid" also becomes vague here, because in the first item above, "across the border" meant "in southern Lebanon".

Is AP itself ever the party updating the story during something like this? Or are the publishers editing/"updating" it? As I understand it, and I'm by no means an expert here, publishers of AP content are generally allowed to edit AP stories for fit, but not to substantially change their meaning. Off the top of my head I'm aware of a previous controversy, when newspaper publisher [[Canwest Global]] was inserting the word "terrorist" in AP articles relating to certain Palestinian groups a couple years ago.

Just trying to put the pieces together here. Am I missing something?

Btw, can anyone find a copy of the Agence France-Press article, cited in the GNN article I quoted above, on a "reputable" website for similar comparison purposes? The cited article - the one that apparently says "According to the Lebanese police force, the two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanese territory" - may have been first published in another language (French?). Of course we have that same fact in [http://in.news.yahoo.com/060712/43/65tzi.html this English-language story]. [[User:Heqs|heqs]] 20:06, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:The yahoo India page is the only one that says today that the kidnapping/arrest occured in Lebanon. Most other sources say it was in Israel. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 20:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Not true. As I just pointed out, there are many copies/versions of a July 12 AP report that says "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon". [[User:Heqs|heqs]] 20:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::And as I pointed out above, very very reputable sources have acknowledged that this happened on Israeli soil, including Al Jazeera, CNN, BBC, NYTimes, and more--[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 02:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== Pictoral bias? ==

It seems that there are far more pictures of suffering Lebanese people than suffering Israelis. In addition, the suffering of the Lebanese people is shown more prominently since the picture at the top of the article only depicts their suffering. Would anybody mind if I did the following to try and fix this? :

* Comment out some pictures of Lebanese people suffering so that the amount of pictures depicting the suffering of either side is equal

* Change the picture at the top of the page to be 2 images next to each other, with each image depicting suffering in a different country

-- [[User:Where|<b><font color="blue">Where</font></b>]] 21:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Go for it. --[[User:Doom777|Doom777]] 22:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

::Aren't there a disproportionate number of Lebanese casualties (at least 2.5:1) and displaced (not even close, going by #s in article)? [[User:Heqs|heqs]] 22:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Yes!! Around 20x more Lebanese have been killed than Israelis (if we looked at the children killed, that ratio would be even higher) - so on what basis is equal representation of pictures of people suffering justifiable? [[User:Pippu d'angelo|ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑]] - [[:scn:User talk:Pippu d'Angelo|<small>(waarom? jus'b'coz!)</small>]] 22:22, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::: yes, do not confuse neutrality with equality. --[[User:200.88.223.98|200.88.223.98]] 22:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::If there have been 20x more children killed on one side than the other, I would expect that there will be more photos floating around depicting that reality. This is especially so if dead bodies of children need to be left out in the open for days on end, in street gutters, on ditches by the side of the road, etc, if the Red Cross, the UN, or indeed anyone, cannot go and retrieve them. [[User:Pippu d'angelo|ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑]] - [[:scn:User talk:Pippu d'Angelo|<small>(waarom? jus'b'coz!)</small>]] 00:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)