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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controversial Israeli and Zionist quotes and Talk:Chris Benoit: Difference between pages

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<div style="color:black; background-color:#fff; padding:1em; margin-bottom:1.5em; border:2px solid #a00; text-align:center; clear:both; ">[[Image:Stop hand.svg|left|80px]]<p style=" font-size:135%;color:#ff0000;">'''<br /><span style="color:#000000;font-size:90%;">Please note that this Talk page is for discussion of changes to the [[Chris Benoit]] article. Off-topic discussions, including tributes, are not appropriate for Wikipedia and '''will be REMOVED'''. Thank You For Your Cooperation!<span></p>
===[[People quoting Israeli and Zionists]]===
</div>
''(NB the title has changed from 'Controversial Israeli and Zionist quotes' since nomination)''
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{{ArticleHistory
|action1=FAC
|action1date=June 22 2006
|action1link=Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chris Benoit
|action1result=Failed
|action1oldid=59900987
 
|action2=GAN
Whilst well referenced quotes may have a place on wikiquote, the only place they should be in wikipedia is in relevant articles where they can be contextualised. Wikipedia is not an indescriminate collection .... . A quixotic collection of inflametory zionist quotes, cherrypicked from around various sources, cannot be anything other that POV, as I suspect the creator of this [[User:Striver]] is aware. Read the introduction to the article - and this [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AControversial_Israeli_and_Zionist_quotes&diff=66679891&oldid=66678909] otherwise unsolicited comment he has made on the talk page. Delete or transfer to wikiquote. --[[User:Aoratos|Aoratos]] 14:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|action2date=May 10 2007
*'''Keep''' It is common knowledge that Wikipedia is not an "indiscriminate collection" and that we have wikiquotes. But i argue that the nomination is flawed in its logic. The article is not indiscriminate, it describes and represent a real phenomena that it sources to (1) [[David Icke]]s website, (2) [[Radio Islam]], (3) whatreallyhappened.com, (4) [[CounterPunch]], (5) [[Rense.com]] (6) [[islamonline.net]] and more. Within those sites, each one (except whatreallyhappened) having their own article here on wikipedia, it can not be said to be a "indiscriminate collection", rather, its a well organized and intentfull collections of quotations aimed to achieve a specific aim. And that is why moving to wikiquote is not appropriate either. This articles main objective is not to present the quotes, rather to represent the [[phenomena]] that the practice of using this quotes represent. The quotes are there to give examples of the phenomena, which is evident since every quote is sourced to its main source, or it stats that it lacks such, and then proceeds to show what '''secondary sources use them to defame Israel and Zionist'''. The quotes '''in the article''' are not cherrypicked, they are picked from '''list that cherry pick''': A huge and important disstinction. The quotes being inflammatory to Zionists is totally irrelevant. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|action2result=Failed
**So, you'd be OK with [[List of nasty things muslims have said about America]] or [[List of Anti-Semitic remarks made by Arabs]]? As I say, an article about controversies that gave quotes as examples would be fine. Bringing them together is not neutral. --[[User:Aoratos|Aoratos]] 15:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|action2oldid=129694794
***I was actualy thinking about creating a counterpart, maybe [[Controversial anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist quotes]], and put them both on the "Arab-Israeli conflict" template. I have absolutly no problem with that. Only questions that needs to be answered is if Zionist proponens have the same practice of listing anti-zionist quotes. I do not understand "'' an article about controversies that gave quotes as examples would be fine. Bringing them together is not neutral''", could you elaborate on that, so i understand? Thanks. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 
|currentstatus=FGAN
*'''Delete''' per the nomination. I do not find Striver's reasoning convincing, and there is ample precedent for deleting information whose organization depends on subjective judgement. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 15:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
}}
::What part is subjective, the quotes being controversial or being used to defame Isreal/Zionist? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
{{Current-PWCOTW|former|April 29|May 6 2007}}
*Delete per nom. Move any that can be verified to wikiquote [[User:Lurker|<span style="border: 1px; border-style:solid; padding:0px 2px 2px 2px; color:black; background-color:lightblue; font-weight:bold">Lurker</span>]] <sup>[[User_talk:Lurker|<font color="red">''talk''</font>]]</sup> 15:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
{| class="infobox" width="175px"
::May i ask, are you arguing that the phenomena is not real, or that it should not be represented? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|-
*'''Keep''' - Striver's arguments are compelling. Why would one delete this article. We need more. [[User:Williamborg|Williamborg (Bill)]] 15:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
!align="center"|[[Image:Vista-file-manager.png|50px|Archive]]<br/>[[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page|Archives]]
*'''Delete''' - It is possible to collect only those facts which support a particular point of view, such that even a presentation of facts can violate our [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]] policy. This appears to be one of those times. The page is also orphaned, which speaks to the "indiscriminate collection of information" point - a pretty specious collection of data, really. ([[User:ESkog|ESkog]])<sup>([[User talk:ESkog|Talk]])</sup> 15:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
----
::You seem to be under the impresion that this article tries to "prove" that Zionist are evil. If that was the case, you would be right. But that is not the case, the article clearly stats that it is portraying the phenomena of people doing so. In other words, your support for the deletion is based on a missrepresentation of what the article is about. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|-
<s>'''Keep''' - article may need developing, but it hasn't been up for long.--[[User:MostlyHarmful|MostlyHarmful]] 15:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)</s>
|align="center"|[[/Archive 1|Archive 1: March 23, 2004 - June 24, 2007]]
*:Sockpuppet of user evading block. [[User:Mackensen|Mackensen]] [[User_talk:Mackensen|(talk)]] 18:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
|}
::Thats right, i has only been up for 90 minutes before being afd'd. Now, ''that'' speaks a lot in my view. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
<!--Template:Archivebox-->
:::The truth hurts - that's probably a motivation behind advocating the deletion of a very useful article.--[[User:MostlyHarmful|MostlyHarmful]] 16:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Please [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]] and avoid speculating on other people's motives. It is about as useful as if I were to speculated on Striver's politics because he created it. I nominated this because it doesn't belong here, that's all. --[[User:Aoratos|Aoratos]] 16:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' say ''what'', Striver? Lists that cherrypick? What is the point of having this? Wikipedia is not a fricking blog! - <b>[[User:Crzrussian/Userpage|CrazyRussian]]</b><small> [[User_talk:Crzrussian|talk]]/[[Special:Emailuser/Crzrussian|email]]</small> 15:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::You are right, it is not. But it '''desribes''' the phenomena of blogs, see: [[Blog]]. In the same sence, this article '''desribes''' this phenomena of creating cherrypicked anti-Israely quotes. In other words: No valid reason for deletion is provided. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 15:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*Delete. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 15:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::No arguements? Just a opinion? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 16:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*Delete: I agree with ESkog. [[User:ED MD|ED MD]] 16:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::in that case, could you please show me were the article is trying to advance the view of Israel-Zioninst being evil/bad? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 16:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. I don't know enough about the situation to give an informed vote, however if kept the use of the word "controversial" in the article title is POV and should be changed. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 16:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::Sure, i have no problem with a rename. I would actualy appreciate some suggestions on better titles.--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 17:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::maybe [[Quoting Israeli and Zionists]]? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 17:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom, wholly unencyclopedic arguing and POV pushing. [[David Icke]]'s web site is an encyclopedic source now? And I would suggest article creator get out of the habit of leaving inappropiate talk page comments[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AControversial_Israeli_and_Zionist_quotes&diff=66679891&oldid=66678909]. [[User:Weregerbil|Weregerbil]] 18:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::Its a very appropriate cite regarding what the cite contains. The cite is not used as a source of facts like "Israel is bad", it is used as a source of the fact "David Ickes site lists quotes", and that is a 100% correct use of the source. Anyway, What pov is the article pushing? Give a example. What part of the argument is unencyclopedic ? I feel there is a lot of sweeping statements that might not be possible to specify. Again, you seem to be under the impression that this is the "Israel is bad" article, while this is the "People like to give this kind of quotes" article. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 18:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
:::The article is unencyclopedic. I would consider a collection of hand-picked (i.e. [[WP:OR]]) out-of-context quotes unencyclopedic. Re "what is POV pushing": the choice and editing (context and lack thereof) of the quotes. Please do not speculate on other editors' motives, your guesses tend to be wrong pretty much all of the time anyway. Whenever you find yourself typing "you seem to think..." the "delete" key is a pretty good choice. (I still don't think the [[reptilian humanoid]] hunter guy is a particularly reliable source...) [[User:Weregerbil|Weregerbil]] 19:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::::Listen, a list of quotes might be POV, OR, out-of-context or whadever. BUT. It is '''not''' the article that originaly researched the quotes, the quotes in the article are '''prominently''' used in the lists of quotes describes. Let me put it this way: If i was to take a biblical verse, and claim it to be false, it would be OR. But if i quote the Qur'an doing the same, then it is ok. You understand my point? "Doing OR" = Wrong, "Reporting on OR" = Right. If '''i''' was to create a list of quotes out of thin air, that would be POV, OR, out-of-context or whadever, BUT i am NOT doing that, i am REPORTING that some PEOPLE are doing that. And THAT IS encyclopedic. Maybe you are arguing that it is not encyclopedic to report on those peoples habits of creating list of quotes? And by the way, just not liking to see the list is not a reason to argue to delete.
:::::Yes, I understand. My disagreeing with you on the encyclopedia-worthiness of this article is due to disagreeing, not lack of understanding. Thank you for explaining it though to make sure I understand. [[User:Weregerbil|Weregerbil]] 19:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::::::Ok, then we understand eachother. Peace.--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 21:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' People, please, can you stop missrepresenting the article? The article is not about stating '''anything''' about Israeli and Zionist, its about representing '''what their detractors do'''. --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 18:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
:*'''Delete''' per above ... and while I'm at it, perhaps [[User:Striver]] might consider that it isn't that we don't understand his position ; we just don't ''agree'' with it. The article's lack of fidelity to Wikipedia guidelines has nothing to do with the creator's intent ... which, incidentally, given his long history of Islamist POV, can't readily be described as neutral. [[User:RGTraynor|RGTraynor]] 19:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
::What is not neutral? Why is it not neutral to report that some people have that habit? --[[User:Striver|Striver]] 19:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 
===Elbow/ Forearm?===
*'''Delete.''' The article doesn't seem to be terribly POV, but basically reports that people are being quoted by other people. If there is some ''significance'' to this practice, then that needs to be verified by a non-Wiki source, or this article is original research. [[User:Eaolson|eaolson]] 19:39, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Is it a forearm knockdown or a high elbow knockdown that Benoit does every week? I've heard Michael Cole say forearm and Tazz say elbow.
 
"However, Chris Benoit was replaced by Johnny Nitro for the ECW Championship match at Vengeance, as Benoit was not there due having his pubic hair get caught in the jet in his pool." are you sure this is not a joke? [[User:202.148.19.14|202.148.19.14]] 16:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Some of the quotes are exceptionally racist and without any source. They are just attributed to the said person. Merge some of the quotes with soucres to the said person. --[[User:Ageo020|Ageo020]] 21:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 
== Benoit murderer? ==
*'''Strong delete''' for several reasons: besides being an indiscriminate collection of information (Wikipedia is not a collection of quotes; there's Wikiquotes for that), the selection of quotes is inherently a POV act; and more importantly, the sourcing -- that is, the [[WP:V|verifiability]] the the quotes are genuine -- is either nonexistent, or completely [[WP:RS|unreliable]]. Sites like Rense.com are not even remotely reliable for Wikipedia purposes. --[[User:MCB|MCB]] 21:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Tuesday's Atlanta Journal Constitution newspaper online article states that police believe Benoit killed his wife and son on Sunday and then himself on Monday. Here is the link [http://www.accessatlanta.com/hp/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Wrestler_Dead.html?imw=Y] [[User:Frog47|Frog47]] 07:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::The soulution to that is to state it in the article. The unrliable factor is what makes the article notable in the first place, that people go to such length to state their view. If the quotes were comon knowledge, it would not be anything special and would not merit a article. Its like a modern day version of the protocols, if you will. The protocols are even more unriliable than this, in this case you can just go to the library and check it out. But still we have a article on the protocols.--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 21:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 
== Benoit and Family Found Dead ==
*'''comment''' guys, if its the quotes that are sitcking in your eyes, then delete them, not the entire article! If you look closly, i have added that some of the quotes have more than one sorces, making it questionable if any of the sources are accurate. That is inline with having a article on the phenomena. But you give in to your gut-reaction of "rasist-bs" that you rather delete the entire article rather than help editing it, or just remove the quotes. It really should not be any problems having them really, as long as its clear that they are not presented as factual, rather, as examples of what people list...--[[User:Striver|Striver]] 21:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
According to WWE.com. Expect a barrage on the page.--[[User:ProtoWolf|ProtoWolf]] 22:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:I hope its just a storyline angle just like this Vince one [[User:Jcdizon|Jcdizon]] 22:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Chris Benoit and his whole family were found dead in their home today. Good God this is horrible
*'''Keep''' but the article deserves a POV tag. The title of the article is somehow strange! --[[User:Aminz|Aminz]] 22:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think its real dude [[User:supermike|supermike]]
*'''Keep'''.--[[User:Zereshk|Zereshk]] 23:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 
Considering the whole "Vince is dead" angle plus the fact that WWE.com reported this while the wrestling sites have yet to pick up on this, I have to wonder if this is legit or not. If it is, I offer my condolences to Benoit's family. Considering he was friends with [[Eddie Guerrero]], one has to wonder if they're going to end up doing a tribute/storyline to him much in the same way as Latino Heat. Benoit will be missed in the squared circle. [[User:Jgera5|Jgera5]] 22:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I'm very sad to report that this isn't a storyline - Dave Meltzer has confirmed the Benoit family's deaths on Wrestling Observer. My condolences go out to the entire wrestling community and to anyone remotely connected to the Benoit family. [[User:Steveweiser|Steveweiser]] 22:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
Considering that they are reporting his WHOLE FAMILY IS DEAD I think its safe to say that sadly, its true. I can't see WWE even being this sick [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 22:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Hopefully we'll see some semblance of respect by them dropping the vince death angle for at least one night. [[User:DemonKyoto|DemonWeb]] 22:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
*WWE have already confirmed that the entire show tonight will be dedicated to Benoit. [[User:Steveweiser|Steveweiser]] 22:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I am in shock. I don't even know what to make of this. One of the greatest in the bussiness gone. Will the "Vince is Dead" storyline countinue? God....I can't believe this. His whole family also... [[User:Milkman519|Milkman]] 22:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
i wish it was a storyline angle but it's not
my friends got a text mesg from wwe alerts
and on wrestlers myspace's like gregory helms it said:
 
I was sitting here at my computer when I got a call informing me of the death of Chris Benoit and his family. Other than saying that my thoughts go out to to his remaining family, I don't know what to say. Chris had just called me on Thursday to check on me as he has every week since my surgery and now days later I find out that he's gone. He was my friend. This hurts! This fucking sucks!!!! Rest in peace my friend! Love you!
 
R.I.P. Chris Benoit
 
And still no news source is reporting this. Just the usual goofy prowrestling sites.
:That's not unusual. It took many major news outlets a few hours to pick up on the death of Eddie. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 22:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::It may take them even longer this time because of the stupid "Vince is presumed dead" angle, g-d I hope they drop that shit now... [[User:Bmg916|<font color="#000000" face="Arial Black">Bmg</font><font color="#009900" face="Arial Black">916</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Bmg916|<font COLOR="navy"><strong>Speak</strong></font>]]</sup> 22:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Someone has changed the main page to say that this is an angle. Dave Meltzer has confirmed that the whole thing is true, and that Benoit sadly is dead. [[User:Steveweiser|Steveweiser]] 22:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
WWE.com updated with statement offering simpathies. We may need to get this Full-Protected. [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 22:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:It might not hurt to jump the gun and request semi protection now before the barrage hits. On a side note, did anyone else notice that they removed all of the Vince's death stuff from the WWE.com main page? -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 22:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::Until confirmed by Atlanta news outlets, we should protect it and change the page back to its unedited state. [[User:MichaelBlankley|MichaelBlankley]] 22:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I don't see any feasible way they can continue with this angle in the wake of Martel and now this tragedy. Chris Benoit was easily one of the most respected wrestlers in the history of pro wrestling, period. To continue that angle in the wake of this would be a new level of disgusting. It will be interesting to see if Vince comes out tonight on RAW. [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 22:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Called channel 11 Atlanta - they checked with Atlanta police - NO SUCH INVESTIGATION. Quit removing this comment.
:Please, I don't think WWE would make false death reports. Vince is a storyline, this isn't. Your "call" to Atlanta police doesn't satisfy reports all over the internet claiming this. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 22:52, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I hate to say it, but the fact that he didn't appear at the pay-per-view the night before for "personal reasons" and then was found dead the next day seems suspicous and somewhat contrived. I hope he's not really dead but either way, it's sad that since this McMahon death angle we really can't believe any deaths in WWE.[[User:Maxwagner7|Maxwagner7]] 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
WWE.com removed all References to the McMahon Death Angle, they updated the RAW page to a simple Chris Benoit 1967-2007 Image. Not even WWE has such bad taste that this could be an angle. [http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/ WWE Raw Page] [[User:212.101.18.215|212.101.18.215]] 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:Plus, Vince Mcmahon opened the RAW by breaking kayfabe and speaking of Benoit's death, so the angle has obviously been dropped. R.I.P. Chris. ([[User:Sawdichtel|Sawyer]] 00:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
 
I'm glad the part saying that Chris murdered his wife and son was deleted because that has not been reported as the official explanation. Let's wait for the straight facts to be delivered. [[User:AlexR42|AlexR42]] 03:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Lets not jump the gun with this. Lets wait until we can find more reliable sources. I am also glad that someone got rid of the Benoit killing his family info. Alot of people are going to come here for information so we should kept as informative as possible without pouring out speculation. And the source that was linked looked like a freelance news web-site --[[User:Classicrockguy|classicrockguy]] 03:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
== Even TNA are reporting it now. There's no way it can be fake. ==
 
So we know it's real now. Not an angle.
 
I just read the TNA piece - it hits you even more when the opposition are reporting the news. [[User:Steveweiser|Steveweiser]] 22:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Oh yeah - that settles it. Come on people, get real - I'll go with Channel 11 and the Atlanta police before wrestling sites.
:For the time being, we have to go by what the sources are saying, even if it is a work (which I doubt it is). -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 22:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There's NO way TNA would play along with WWE storylines [[User:Movietrailer|Movietrailer]] 22:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::The funny things is thinking people would take an unsigned comment about a phone call to the Atlanta police as credible over official documentation on both WWE.com and its direct competition. [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 22:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I think based on the number of edits in the past few hours a semi-protect is at least in order. [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 23:00, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::If this were only a storyline, TNA would not have said a word about it, and yet it is on their page. It is, most unfortunately, legit. I'm sure Atlanta news will acknowledge something if it is found to be a suspicious death. And yes, I agree on the semi-protect. People will be editing this page like mad.[[User:trivialbass619|trivialbass619]] 23:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
Well it seems stopping the wrestling industry plants would help. Called Atlanta police myself - no known report or investigation. I am not the only one who has called. Why not get off your behinds and call yourself?
 
Oh come on, you're being stupid - it's all over the Internet now, it is most definitely legit... end of story. [[user:Mattborgi|Mattborgi]] 23:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
And every single one is a wrestling site except a Memphis station reporting that WWE site says so. Call the Altanta police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Unsigned
 
The atlanta police are already there... --Unsigned
 
There are no credible (non-wrestling) sites reporting that he died. If it were real, surely CNN or the AP would report on it. Especially if it involved his whole family dying. --[[User:Ssj4android|Ssj4android]] 23:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Easy now everybody, take a breath. In one hour we'll see if it's real or not. [[User:Mattbwn|Mattbwn]] 23:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
The lack of respect shown here for a deceased human being truely disgusts me. [[User:MMAnzi|MMAnzi]] 23:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:Do you think this should have a semi-protect if vandalism occurs today? --[[User:Mikecraig|Mikecraig]] 23:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::Right now, we're best off patrolling it constantly for vandalism and reverting it when it happens. Semi-protection might be needed soon, however. [[User:Rdfox 76|Rdfox 76]] 23:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
The Atlanta police probably wouldn't talk about an ongoing investigation. I wish it was a work, but I doubt it is. [[User:68.18.33.219|68.18.33.219]] 23:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)Adam Nelson
 
http://www.myeyewitnessnews.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=a76b6326-1f90-4539-988e-cf4eb2b8cd7f&rss=59 [[User:75.2.200.118|75.2.200.118]] 23:20, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
WSB in Atlanta confirms. http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13567642/detail.html?rss=atl&psp=news
 
This can't be a work unfortenly. Even WWE.com confirms this.
 
:'''Sign your posts''' - When you add content to [[Wikipedia:Talk page|talk pages]] and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should [[Wikipedia:Signatures|sign your posts]] by typing four [[tilde]]s ( &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; ) at the end of your comment. You may also click on the signature button [[Image:Wikisigbutton.png]] located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. --[[User:Mikecraig|Mikecraig]] 23:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
For everyone saying they have called the Atlanta Police, you need to be aware this isn't an active investigation by the Atlanta Police Department. The investigation is being conducted by the Fayette County Sheriff's Department, and you should call them. [http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=99172 Link to story.] --[[User:Hookedonlsd|Hookedonlsd]] 01:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Ok Folks==
Time to settle down a bit. Taking a few extra minutes or more to confirm information AND to reliably source it (no, PWTorch, 1wrestling.com are not reliable sources) will not kill the article. Please do not continue to edit war on the page, we don't want to full protect it, but we will if we have to. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 23:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:Agree --[[User:Mikecraig|Mikecraig]] 23:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
ok here is a source from an atlanta news site
 
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13567642/detail.html [[User:Movietrailer|Movietrailer]] 23:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html - Atlanta Journal Constitution is reporting on it. - Matt J
 
==We've been reported on==
"To those emailing us with the note from Wikipedia.com claiming the Benoit-family death situation is a WWE television angle - we can confirm that rumor is completely false. There is nothing scripted about the very tragic circumstances that unfolded today." [http://www.wrestlezone.com/article.php?articleid=184820278] -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 23:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
There are many more useless, hurtful, and ignorant items added into this discussion than the ones you deleted. Should get your priorities straight. [[User:75.2.200.118|75.2.200.118]] 23:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
== Protect the article ==
 
I'd like to suggest that an administrator put protection on the Benoit article. No doubt that people will be flocking here to get information, and some will be tempted to edit the article with false information. [[User:Theonecalleda1|TheOneCalledA1]] 23:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
:It's already happening, I'm sorry to say. -- [[User:MisterHand|MisterHand]] 23:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
::I have requested that it be fully protected for the time being because we won't be getting any information any time soon and it should be protected at least until new verified information comes in. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I agree. [[user:Sevenplusone|{{#if:{{{3|}}}|<span style="background-color:<small>seven</small>'''''<big>+</big>'''''<small>one'''''</small>;color:red;">{{{3|}}}</span>|<span style="color:red;"><small>seven</small>'''''<big>+</big>'''''<small>one'''''</small></span>}}]] 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:::I don't think protection is necessary just patience. Eventually the truth (and it is seemingly more likely that it is an AWFUL truth) will be verified sufficiently for all parties. Even though some MSM outlets are beginning to come out with this story, I am still hoping it's just an angle. In the meantime please don't edit war, the article isn't going anywhere, and there will be sufficient time to sort out all the issues. [[User:Ramsquire|Ramsquire]] <sup>[[User talk:Ramsquire|(throw me a line)]]</sup> 23:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I disagree with full protection; what we want is semi-protection. Full protection is only for ongoing edit wars and such. For example, the article on the [[Virginia Tech massacre]] experienced near-constant vandalism for days after the event, but it has never been beyond semi-protection. Vandalism by established editors can be dealt with through standard Wiki means--we monitor and correct it, and use warnings and [[WP:AIV]] to deal with it. I would, however, recommend starting with uw-v2 at a minimum for vandalism, and wouldn't disagree with uw-v4im for people putting in claims that this is all a work. [[User:Rdfox 76|Rdfox 76]] 23:49, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I think the article needs to be protected for the next while. I've just been on a couple of webforums and Wikipedia's rep is taking some hits from people upset over the false reports that made their way into the article before the lock-down. Wiki's reputation is shaky enough; in some respects I think wikipolicy should indicate that articles like these should be instantly locked to all but registered editors once a story like this breaks. Obviously in practice it's more difficult to do that than in theory ... [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 00:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
I recommend a full protect on the article for one week just to keep things together as the details of his death comes forward. Maybe we should look at something for the long term future in regards to this page's protection. [[User:AnthonyWalters|AnthonyWalters]] 01:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:We try to only use full protection in ongoing edit wars, and then as sparingly as possible. I'm sure a lot of folks have it on their watch list. Just make sure everything is sourced, and if the situation changes, then the article can change. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 01:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Tyeman64 types:
I believe as well semi-protect will do for now. Any member here would be smart enough not to add what they dont know. As wikipedia isnt here for speculation but for facts.[[User:tyeman64|tyeman64]] 10:43 pm est, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==TSN==
TSN.ca is now reporting on Benoit's death. [http://www.tsn.ca/news_story.asp?ID=211878&hubName=main] -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 00:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:So has FoxNews [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286673,00.html], with apparent verification that the authorities are investigating it. The problem is, most of these reports are linking their stories to WWE.com, which to people like me who don't want to believe it's true, gives the hope that this may all be some sick and misguided work. [[User:Ramsquire|Ramsquire]] <sup>[[User talk:Ramsquire|(throw me a line)]]</sup> 00:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
* The [[Canadian Press]] wire service is reporting it, though only using he WWE site as a source. Having worked for CP-related media I can say with assurance they wouldn't be posting this if there wasn't a legitimate indication it's true. See [http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070625/sports/dead_wrestler_1 here] [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 00:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
They can always ask local authorities to validate the claim, so its legit.--[[User:Bedford|Bedford]] 00:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Besides, common sense would dictate that this wouldn't follow the WWE formula for a work; it wasn't built up on TV at all, they already have a similar story going on (or they did), and they cancelled an entire show and sent the audience home. [[User:Jeff Silvers|Jeff Silvers]] 00:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
== WSB linking to article ==
 
[[WSB-TV]] (Atlanta's ABC affiliate) has linked to Chris Benoit's wiki page [http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13567642/detail.html here]. Where is the talk template for noting an article that has been used as a source by a news organization? --[[User:Kitch|Kitch]] <sup>([[User talk:Kitch|Talk]] : [[Special:Contributions/Kitch|Contrib]])</sup> 00:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::Don't see a link there, Kitch... :? 00:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::Yeah, where's the link there? ([[User:Sawdichtel|Sawyer]] 01:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
 
== Just some advice ==
Is there any explanation as to why my section in here was deleted? Send me a message before you do that. Anyway, (http://www.tmz.com) - This is yet another news site confirming his death. No need to believe trolls, especially those who refuse to sign their posts. [[User:Legendotphoenix|Legendotphoenix]] 01:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
== Associated Press ==
 
A very reliable source, the [[Associated Press]], has reported about the deaths [http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/W/WRESTLER_DEAD?SITE=ORMED&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT here]. Rest in peace, Benoit. ~ [[User:UBeR|UBeR]] 01:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
== DOD ==
 
Should the date of death be listed as June 25 yet? We know he was found today, but until the autopsy is released (expected Tuesday), we don't know for sure the date of death. Right now, all we know for sure is it happened sometime between Sunday afternoon (June 24th) and 2:30pm June 25th. So with that, shouldn't the DOD be listed as unknown, until offical word? [[User:Rawboard|Rawboard]] 01:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:It should stay as the 25th until a source says otherwise. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 01:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Agreed. [[User:Legendotphoenix|Legendotphoenix]] 01:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Agreed. However, don't threaten full protection over this unless someone gets into a revert war. Try using the [[WP:TEMPLATE|Talkpage warning system]] and going through [[WP:AIV]] before going that far, OK? [[User:Rdfox 76|Rdfox 76]] 01:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::The one user who I was reverting had added that date two or three times previously. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 01:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::I gave him a uw-v2 warning on his talkpage. If he does it again, give him higher-level warnings. If he ignores the level-four warning, then report him to AIV. Full protection is for severe vandalism by multiple sockpuppets, or revert wars. [[User:Rdfox 76|Rdfox 76]] 01:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Being investigated as a Possible Murder-Suicide==
[http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html]. With something this explosive, with no named source, or even an unnamed source I don't see how we can add it yet,but it's out there. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 01:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:I hope to god its not murder [[User:Eternal Pink|♥Fighting for charming Love♥]] 02:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
:That should be taken out of the article. The AJC is the ONLY paper I've seen reporting that. And the actual investigators...Lt. Tommy Pope of the local police said it was being investigated as a HOMICIDE. Period. No mention of suicide. Until the AJC's report is supported by someone else, or their sources are cited....that part should be removed. [[User:Abalu|Abalu]] 02:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)Abalu
 
::I agree, and have removed it from the article. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 02:33, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Also agreed - let's keep this out of the article until we can find more sources. [[User:Legendotphoenix|Legendotphoenix]] 02:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Update: Is there ANYBODY who gets Atlanta stations that can confirm this? I just got this from someone who lives down there.
 
'''Local 10p news (WAGA-TV) is reporting that investigators have told them that, based on evidence found inside the home that they are not ready to disclose, they believe Benoit may have killed his wife & son a couple of days earlier before taking his own life sometime in the past 24 hours.'''
 
'''According to WAGA, the bodies were discovered by a neighbor today after WWE "promoters" were unable to reach the Benoits by phone. The bodies were found in separate rooms, Nancy in an office area, Daniel in an upstairs bedroom, and Chris in a weight room.'''
 
'''The latter part of that (the locations) were given on-camera by an investigator, the rest was from the reporter who did the stand up piece from the local sheriff's department.'''
 
(Bolding and signing) [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 02:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:I hope that this is anything but the truth. Chris has always seemed like an honorable and respectful man as long as I've watched him wrestle, and to hear this kind of story disgusts me. Although to find out if this is the truth would probably sicken me even more. Let's just hope this is speculation at best, or some punk jackass talking out of his 4th point of contact... [[User:Mkb4evr|Mike]] 02:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::This whole thing seems very strange to me. Obviously it's not part of any storyline so that's out of the question. Earlier reports were postulating that it might of been some sort of homicide where some outside party killed all three of them and some reports now are postulating that it could of been a murder suicide thing where Benoit killed his family and then himself. Both scenarios seem basically impossible to me. Benoit was a fairly large and powerful person and there were no reports of any sort of struggle so it seems that given the circumstances the chances of some outside party coming in and murdering them all is very slim. I've been a fan of wrestling for several years and know numerous people who have met Benoit and all accounts say that he was a calm and peaceful person, very very nice. So it's impossible for me to conceive him murdering his family and then committing suicide. I'm not proposing any changes be made to the article right now, I just don't believe we should immediately put any sort of media postulations in the article at this early a state. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 02:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:: Well, ABC News is reporting the following (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=3315501&page=1):
 
::''"There were no signs of gunshot wounds or stabbing, according to Pope. Authorities are not ruling out other causes, such as poisoning, suffocation, or strangulation. Pope told ABC News that his department is looking at this situation as a "possible double murder, suicide."''
 
::''Pope said "the instruments of death were located on scene," but would not specify what those instruments are or where in the house the bodies were found. Pope added the department is "not actively searching for any suspects outside of the house." "''
 
::I think that fairly well sums it up, though of course this can't be confirmed by any other source thus far that I've found. [[User:Goofyman|Goofyman]] 02:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
::::"the instruments of death"? That's awfully strange. Benoit was probably one of the most peaceful, clam and nice wrestlers there are, people there are. I simply can't phantom him being the culprit in these terrible events. I don't know much about his wife though. My initial assumptions was possibly some sort of food poisoning or maybe a gas leak that caused their deaths since I read other reports that the bodies were found in totally different parts of the house, His wife in her office, son in his bedroom and Benoit was in his weight room. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 02:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:::It's a righteous cite, however, since A) It's ABC News, B) We have a named person providing the information. I don't want it to be true, but this is a very righteous cite, :( [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 03:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
I hate to sound like a dick, but this discussion is veering away from being relevant to the article. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 03:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:It's ok. Anyone have any problems with putting that paragraph in, since it is now well cited? [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 03:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::Unfortunately we might as well, I just saw it noted on MSNBC. This really is a sad story. [[User:Mkb4evr|Mike]] 03:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:No dont not until tommorow. Wait for the cops to release more tommorow.[[User:Tyeman64|Tyeman64]] 03:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC) 11:12 pm 6/25/2007
 
:From WWE.Com -- ''"It has been ruled that the deaths of Chris Benoit, his wife Nancy and their son Daniel earlier today were the result of a double murder-suicide from within the home. WWE.com will have more as soon as it becomes available."'' [[User:Jezebel Parks|Jezebel Parks]] 03:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Wouldn't it be better for the time being to state that "the police were called to check on the welfare of..." instead of stating that said person or said company called them??? --[[User:TipoBarra|TipoBarra]] 03:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:::I don't think Wikipedia should just jump onto what news agencies or especially wwe.com says given the amount of inconsistency in their reports today. This article will no doubt continue to change all night and tomorrow and I believe we should simply mention that they were found dead in their home without reporting what news agencies are saying at this moment. Fully protected the article until new and solid information comes to light tomorrow or whenever. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 03:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::::If you want to make the request at [[WP:RfPP]], Wikidudeman, you certainly can, but with the amount of cites provided for that paragraph, I don't think there's any way A) We can take that paragraph out, and B) that you will get a Full Protect on the article. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 03:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::Why not? The page is being heavily vandalised by vandals who have accounts. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 03:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::Because in cases where it's vandalism (and not an edit war), they do not full protect the page unless the volume of vandalism is so great that the regular editors cannot keep up with it. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 03:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::::But the article is being edited at such a fast and furious pace that whenever one tries to revert vandalism, they have edit conflicts or accidentally revert legitimate edits and vice versa. I think that qualifies as making it so that it is hard to keep up. -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 03:58, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::I argee with what SirFozzie is saying, but there needs be a certain protection. also, i feel that people need to write things in a way which is accurate, yet not speculative to what has happened. it is possible that they all died of an illness, or have been murdered. it is our role not to jump to conclusions, but to right accurate articles based on the facts we have. the informantion is not 100% reliable at the moment, as Wikidudeman correctly states, but i think there is enough information there to write summit accurate --[[User:TipoBarra|TipoBarra]] 03:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::This [[Wikipedia:Autoconfirmed Proposal]] sure would come in handy right now... [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 03:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Is this just vandalism?==
Various users keep adding "Investigators believe that Benoit killed his wife and son over the weekend and then himself sometime on Monday although the cause is unknown" is that actually coming from somewhere, or is it just vandalism? -- [[User:Scorpion0422|Scorpion]]<sup>[[user talk:Scorpion0422|0422]]</sup> 03:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:In the subject above, there's a news article posted that suggests the police have suspicion that that's what might have happened. [[User:Arrowny|Arrowny]] 03:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::It's current media postulations that came from a detective on the case. [[User:Wikidudeman|'''<font color="blue">Wikidudeman</font>''']] <sup>[[User talk:Wikidudeman|(talk)]]</sup> 03:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Regardless of whether you believe it should be included (I personally do, though it should definitely be made clear that there is still no official word on the situation), yes, the investigator did in fact say that it looks like Benoit murdered his wife and son before killing himself the following day. [[User:Jeff Silvers|Jeff Silvers]] 03:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I have asked a couple fellow admins to take a look at it, protection wise and BLP wise. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 04:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::::I have tried to add the word POSSIBLE to the murder-suicide phrase, as well as indicating that the autopsy is tomorrow, there likely wont be results for a couple weeks, but it doesn't appear that my edit is 'taking'. And ABC news had this on the cause of death: "There were no signs of gunshot wounds or stabbing, according to Pope. '''Authorities are not ruling out other causes, such as poisoning, suffocation or strangulation.''' Pope told ABC News that his department is looking at this situation as a "possible double murder, suicide." [[User:Bsbfan4alex|Bsbfan4alex]] 05:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::::Yes, we can't use Wikipedia articles to disseminate speculation. I ask that people refrain from making such contributions. The article is already semi-protected, if it continues I might be forced to fully protect the article. Thank you.--[[User:Jersey Devil|Jersey Devil]] 04:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
:::::So we can say that the investigator (and NAME the investigator) said it, but we cannot report it as fact. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] 04:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::::::I think that might be reasonable but before added on it should have some kind of consensus from other users editing this article. So what do contributors think of SirFozzie's suggestion?--[[User:Jersey Devil|Jersey Devil]] 04:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
So long as it's attributed to a reliable source - and reported as such - I have no objection to including this as it represents the present state of the investigation. In another day, this will change, but it's supposed to be easy to revise this wikithingy anyway, so I don't see the problem. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] 04:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Agreed. Obviously we can't just say "Benoit killed his wife and son," but it is important, notable, and verifiable that an investigator on the case has suggested it could've occurred that way. [[User:Jeff Silvers|Jeff Silvers]] 04:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Likewise, reporting "news" from the WWE website isn't appropriate because they aren't a reliable source for the current state of the investigation. I trust local and national news sources to do a better job fact checking and a (purely) entertainment-based website. [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] 04:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:At the same time, the WWE is citing credible and knowledgeable news sources. A lot of the WWE's article about the murder-suicide can be written into :the article citing the WWE article. This is one of the very most rare of times where WWE.com is going to break kayfabe to break a legit news story. --[[User:Raderick|Raderick]] 05:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Request Full Protection==
 
Registered users such as 217mattq are editing the entry with profane or useless information (until the investigation is done). I think a request for full protection on the article needs to be implemented. [[User:GZAdmin|GZAdmin]] 05:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:I agree, it's all wild speculation until an autopsy report comes out, and even after that I suspect there will be continued vandalism done even by registered users. [[User:IrisKawling|IrisKawling]] 05:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Doesn't require full-protection, only a few cases of vandalism. Warn the users. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 05:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Question: how is it that accounts only one minute old can edit this article? What's the time requirement for "newly created accounts"? [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] 06:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Doubt they were one minute old, some accounts are created and never used until situations like this. 4 days I believe is the requirement for "new" accounts. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 06:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Oh yeah, I'd read about that awhile back. I must be getting tired. Keep an eye on the article 'till I get back, will ya? And don't notify Office about anything k? [[User:Rklawton|Rklawton]] 06:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
It's been fully protected after some throw-away accounts were used to continue vandalizing the article. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 06:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Since when has simple vandalism become a problem? Please semi-protect the article so that you may allow the free flow of information. Thanks. ~ [[User:UBeR|UBeR]] 06:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Until there are more confirmed facts, additional entries are mere speculation. Full protection period is only 48hrs, by which point we should hopefully have more reliable information to add. Anything else that is noticed and requires correction can be mentioned here and corrected. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 06:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Yeah, I suppose you're right, The Australian, CNN, and the Associated Press are just tosh and unreliable. ~ [[User:UBeR|UBeR]] 07:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==Stylized==
 
Should actually read "styled" in the first main paragraph I think. You don't stylize yourself on someone but you can style yourself on someone. [[User:Xobxela|Xobxela]] 06:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Correction made. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 06:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==The 4:01 June 25th post==
That string needs to be returned. This place is not a democracy, but when everyone else disagrees with you, Moe, you should consider for a second that you might be wrong. That's a legit discussion to have ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:Then they can take it to the admin's noticeboard or to OFFICE, this talk page is for improving the article, not general comments about the subject. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 06:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::From what I can see, it didn't really divulge anything as the user was anonymous. Here's the diff for reference: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AChris_Benoit&diff=140688452&oldid=140688194] '''[[User:east718|<small style="color:black">east</small>]]<font color="green">.</font>[[User talk:east718|<small style="color:gray">718</small>]]''' 06:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Anonymous or not, divulging IP information on ANY account without the account holders permission is in violation of the Wikimedia Foundation Privacy Policy. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 06:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::Then those references could be removed without taking down the whole thread ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 06:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:::::The conversation still doesn't belong here. Take it to OFFICE, take it AN/I, take it someplace that it fits that isn't here. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:02, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::again, it's not a democracy, but you are the only person voicing that concern while many others believe it is legit for discussion. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:::::::How does it improve the article? Answer: I doesn't. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
It's an important fact that points to the timeline of the deaths. If someone knew 18 hours before the press release, it adds to the story. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:If you want to go play investigator, report it someplace, talk to OFFICE, otherwise your hypothetical allegations are not adding on to the story, your only being [[WP:DISRUPT|disruptive]]. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Isnt everyone here playing investigator? Isnt that what this site is about? I dont know what hypothetical allegations you think I am adding. All I am saying is that someone added a comment about his wife's death 18 hours before it was released. Everyone else thinks it is legit to discuss and adds an aspect to this story not reported anywhere else. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:::It's also important to note that every news report speculates that Chris died sometime Monday, meaning he was still alive when somoene posted that remark about his wife being dead. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:::[[WP:NOT]] an investigative journalism source. [[WP:NOR]] clearly prohibits this sort of investigation. If that is what you think Wikipedia's goal is, then we don't want your assistance with the project. Continue down this road and you will find yourself blocked for 24hrs. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 07:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::THis is not original research. I am simply pointing to two facts. 1, the news outlets report that his wife died over the weekend and Chris died Monday. 2, someone on here posted a message saying that his wife was dead about 18 hours before the press broke the story and during the time when the media says he was still alive. No theories here, no speculation. Those are simply the facts ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:::::If you want to threaten people with being banned, why not start with all the theories below on the different ways he could have killed himself. Those are theories; what I posted was facts. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
::::::You really are looking to be blocked.. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:40, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Threaten me all you want. You are the person deleting threads where others clearly disagree with you. And you are also not being very nice in your replies. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:I don't have to be very nice. Again, I didn't remove it because I didn't agree with you, one, because of the privacy policy violation before hand and the fact it didn't belong here. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:46, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:And now, I am going to [[WP:DFTT|feed you]] anymore. — [[User:Moe Epsilon|<font color="FF0000">M</font><font color="EE0000" >o</font><font color="DD0000">e</font>]] [[User talk:Moe Epsilon|<font color="0000FF">ε</font>]] 07:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion that it doesnt belong. Others dont share it. And no, you dont have to be nice here, but if you are going to threaten getting people banned, you should make sure your house is clean. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
:You are calling me a troll? Look at all the arguments on your talk page. Looks like you make it a daily habit of starting stuff like this (and yes, you started this) and then bully people into threatening them with a ban. ([[User:Wesleymullins|Wesleymullins]] 07:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC))
 
==Probable new categories==
In light of recent events, I foresee the probable use of at least two new categories. "Category:Murderers of children" and "Category:Canadian murderers". While it is still "speculation", it will not be very long at all until he proven to be of murder and the murder of his child (he has already, obviously, been linked to these murders), there are no other suspects and it is unlikely his kid or his wife managed to kill this hulk of a man. So just be ready for these new categories here on the talk page rather than being shocked and appalled at seeing for the first time that your hero has been categorized as a child murderer on the article itself. [[User:JayKeaton|JayKeaton]] 07:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Let not jump to conclusions, even if they are probable. Wikipedia is [[WP:NOT|not a crystal ball]] or speculative in that manner. ~ [[User:UBeR|UBeR]] 07:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::Be that as it may, all signs to point to "yes", so if you are a fan of this Benoit guy, just be ready for it. By the time this page is unlocked, the police probably will have made a statement saying that yes he was the killer. So it is possible that it was a freak accident, maybe a microwave exploded and a block of kitchen knives nearby happen to fly at all of their necks, all signs are pointing towards what the police are already saying. It is a truly sad and disturbing turn of events, I wish it didn't have to be this way. But it is. [[User:JayKeaton|JayKeaton]] 07:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Please refrain from such conjecture. Accusing someone of murder is quite grave, not to mention rather insensitive considering that a family has been torn apart just recently. I think you should wait until the official police report is made before thinking that the case is already solved. [[User:AMReese|AMReese]] 07:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
::::The case is being treated as a homicide and this is not a biography of a living person, so accusations are not so much of an issue here. The police did say that they are also treating it as a murder-suicide. It is just the facts and that is the way the facts are pointing. And that will probably be a large part of the future of this article. Also in the history of his wrestling, especially leading up to the murders, the WWE says that he has pulled out of an event or two because of "personal reasons" and also "family issues". Chris pulling out because of personal reasons and family issues just before the death of himself and his family relates directly to the death of his family. Such conjecture is necessary based on the evidence so far and also to try and figure out what to expect from this article in the future and the near future [[User:JayKeaton|JayKeaton]] 08:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==The house was in Fayetteville==
All reports are saying that the home was in [[Fayetteville, Georgia]], not [[Atlanta, Georgia]], as is posted in the opening section, the Death section and Persondata. [http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/fayette/stories/2007/06/25/0625benoit.html?imw=Y Atlanta Journal-Constitution], [http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3315789 AP]. --[[User:Zimbabweed|Zimbabweed]] 07:06, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Correction made. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 07:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
Here: http://www.wrestlingobserver.com/wo/news/headlines/default.asp?aID=20003
 
It says they were in three seperate rooms. Remember they have stated no guns or knives were used. Benoit was in the weight room, so if he killed himself... it might be possible he dropped a weight on his throat, POSSIBLE. Otherwise we have no real evidence for any theory. The boy was in his room, the wife in the living room, their german shephers were running free in the yard.
 
That's all we know.
 
:Wrestling Observer is not a reliable source for information of this nature. Give me an AP news report, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc... and we'll run with it. Until then it stays out of the article. &nbsp;[[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|&trade;]] <span style="font-size:130%; background:yellow; border:1px solid black;">&#x2622;</span> 07:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
::And who are you? Please sign your name next time. Also, I think if Benoit strangled himself with a weight, it wouldn't be so mysterious behind the cause of his death. Also, I think spouting up theories behind the man's death is unnecessary, not to mention as I said before, insensitive. I'd rather have the facts than a theory. [[User:AMReese|AMReese]] 07:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
 
Alright, I meant no disrespect, heck this guy was something of an idol of mine for years. The theory was based on the room they mentioned, perhaps it was me grasping at straws that he might've had an accident.... I of course did not know him personally, but it kinda hit me hard too. I'm just hoping their double murder and suicide theory is flawed.
 
~padlocke09
 
--[[User:Padlocke09|Padlocke09]] 07:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)3:41 AM, 26, June 2007
 
A lot of news sources have said they were found in three separate rooms. Though that is actually pointing more towards foul play than an accident. Also if it was an accident, such as a poisonous gas leak, the police wouldn't be saying that they are treating it as homicide. [[User:JayKeaton|JayKeaton]] 08:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
:Could still be an accident, lots of families have died by accidental gas leaks. [[User:Dionyseus|Dionyseus]] 09:32, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 
==I propose this image be added to the article==
[[Image:Cbwhat.JPG]]
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