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The '''Saga of Seven Suns''' is a series of [[science fiction]] novels written by [[Kevin J. Anderson]] as of November 2006. It is a series planned to span seven books, with the seventh and last to be published in two years. The series is set with a [[space opera]] theme, in a distant future. Humanity has spread out among the stars, colonizing a number of planets in the spiral arm of the [[Milky Way]] galaxy.
I'm not the greatest fan of this proposal. I can't imagine a standard Wikipedia user specifically searching out the article "State Route 9", which then becomes a disambiguation page to all 40 State Route 9 entries. More likely the user would look for "Indiana State Route 9", or "Indiana State Highway 9", or even "Indiana 9", all of which would be redirects to how InDOT would name it, most likely "Indiana State Highway 9". It doesn't pass the "this is what disambiguation is for" test for me. —[[User:Lpangelrob|<span style="font-variant: small-caps">Rob</span>]] <span style="font-size:x-small">(</span>[[User_talk:Lpangelrob|<span style='color:#006600; font-size:x-small;'>talk</span>]]<span style="font-size:x-small">)</span> 21:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
==Synopsis==
:Then we make redirects, coordinated with a page like [[Wikipedia:WikiProject New Jersey/State Routes]]. You'd be surprised at the amount of people that just type in stuff like [[Highway 50]], given that I've seen articles about specific roads at those locations. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Route_50&oldid=36025705] By the way, in Indiana the roads are named "State Route X". No Indiana before. [http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=+site%3Awww.in.gov+%22state+route&btnG=Search] Of course they usually use SR, [http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=+site%3Awww.in.gov+%22sr&btnG=Search] but that's an obvious abbreviation, so we write it in full. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 22:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
===Prequel: Veiled Alliances (Graphic Novel) (2004)===<!-- This section is linked from [[Kevin J. Anderson]] -->
Also at the Caltrans page they might just use "State Route" for short. Like whose state routes would they be talking about? Calif'ornia's of course. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 03:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Veiled_Alliances.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of Veiled Alliances.]]
I agree with this proposal (as stated elsewhere), altho I also see the problem with searching for <i>State Name</i> Route <i>N</i> or even <i>SA</i> Route <i>N</i> (state abbrev.), but there are many ways to search for a route number, so I'm not sure we can cover all options with the atricle name. I think it's better to use the existing disambiguation convention and provide redirects/disambiguations. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Centuries ago, the human race began searching the Milky Way for hospitable planets, hoping to alleviate crowded conditions on Earth. Eleven ships filled with self-sufficient explorers set out for the stars, knowing that, at best, their grandchildren might someday find a new home. And now the Caillié, a generation ship on the verge of despair, has discovered something FAR more interesting - an advanced race capable of faster-than-light travel.
==Related naming issues==
*See [[User:Censorwolf/Roadlists]] for list of current State Road/Routes/Highways List naming patterns.
*See [[User:Censorwolf/Roadcats]] for list of current State Road/Routes/Highways Category naming patterns.
--[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 20:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Ildirans not only help the people of the Caillié settle the planet Theron, they seek out survivors of the other ships launched so long ago. Once they've located most of the remaining human pioneers, the Ildirans send an envoy to the much-changed planet Earth seeking an alliance between the two races. The Earth is now governed by the wisened King Ben, with the shadowy figure of Chairman Malcolm Stannis pulling the strings for the Terran Hanseatic League behind the scenes.
== Disambiguation ==
===Book 1: Hidden Empire (2002)===<!-- This section is linked from [[Kevin J. Anderson]] -->
Tested the [[pipe trick]] for the double disambiguation on "State Road 50 (Florida) (west)" as
[[Image:Hidden_Empire.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of Hidden Empire.]]
[[User:Censorwolf/State Road 50 (Florida) (west)|Florida Route 50 (Western part)]]
Having colonized the worlds of the Spiral Arm, the three branches of humanity -- the Earth-based Terran Hanseatic League, the telepathic green priests of Theroc, and the fiercely rebellious, starship-dwelling Roamers -- consider themselves lords of creation. After all, humans share the galaxy with only two alien species, one harmless and one extinct. The benign Ildirans are an ancient, senescent civilization, while the Klikiss vanished ages before, leaving behind vast ruins filled with technological wonders, but no clues to their mysterious disappearance.
So ambitious humans see the galaxy as wide open for the taking. And when two xenoarchaeologists discover a Klikiss device that can convert gas giant planets into new, life-giving suns, the humans promptly put their new technology to the test. The result is hideous beyond imagination. For the supposedly uninhabitable gas giants are the homeworlds of another alien species - the Hydrogues. Infinitely more advanced than the Ildirans, supremely more powerful than the Klikiss, and now the victims of accidental genocide, the hydrogues don't seek explanations, apologies, or reparations. Instead, armadas of invincible, city-sized warships emerge from their gaseous worlds with a single purpose: to annihilate every last human - whether Hansa, Theron, or Roamer.
And it works fine. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 20:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Suddenly, humans need allies, but the Klikiss can't help them and the Ildirans won't. In their pride, the upstart worlds of Man have misunderstood the brutal realities of the galaxy and now face their own impending doom.
:That's not how the pipe trick works. [[State Road 50 (Florida) (west)|]] - yep, failure. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 20:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
::OK, that's not what I thought you meant (ie using only the pipe char). However, the format I used above (supplying the displayed anchor) does work ok. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 17:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
===Book 2: A Forest of Stars (2003)===
==On Oklahoma==
Officially, in Oklahoma, the numbered routes are "State Highways", and are officially abbreviated as such, e.g. a small green sign on a stoplight pole will usually read "SH 9" or "SH-9" or something to that effect. U.S. routes are abbreviated on signage as "US-77" or "US 77" (more often than not, with no dots). Interstates are abbreviated in text form as I-35 or whatever. (Note that this is just what I have observed on signs, I have no clue what ODOT calls them internally.)
[[Image:Forest_Of_Stars.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of A Forest of Stars.]]
In common usage [[McClain County, Oklahoma|around here]], people will use I-xx for Interstates, and then call everything else ''Highway'' whatever. For instance, Highway 9, Highway 77, etc. I have also heard people refer to highways just using the number, such as ''go down 74, turn right onto 74B'', etc. ''Route'' is practically unused here, except with the number 66, which is former alignment of [[U.S. Route 66]].
Five years after attacking human-colonized worlds of the Spiral Arm, the enigmatic hydrogues maintain absolute control over the galaxy's gas giant planets. On Earth, the corrupt government is exploiting the crisis, tightening an iron grip on rebellious colonies while seeking to dominate the other humans throughout the galaxy. Earth's alien "friends", the seemingly gentle Ildirans, are secretly abducting and breeding people in enforced sex camps. And the government is using military robots to build cybernetic legions to fight the war, robots that have exterminated their own makers and may turn on mankind.
Five years ago, humans thought they ruled the cosmos. Today they're the galaxy's most endangered species. But when an incredible new race of elemental entities suddenly appear, they destroy all known balances of power. For these beings have suffered genocide for millions of years and are seeking to annihilate all living things.
That means that if the state name is required to go at the end of the title, we'll have names which are about 3 characters longer, like ''State Highway 74 (Oklahoma)''. Possibly we could get by with ''Highway 3 (Oklahoma)'', but it is a ''state highway'' that belongs to ''Oklahoma''. There really is no "common usage", I've heard "Highway 74" and "74" and also "That one road that runs past Thomas Feed". The only highway with a universal name that I know of is Highway 9...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 20:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Now for the humans and the myriad alien factions in the universe, the real war is about to begin.
== Category Names ==
===Book 3: Horizon Storms (2004)===
(Discussion moved from project page) --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 13:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Horizon_Storms.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of Horizon Storms.]]
The titanic war between hydrogues - powerful aliens that live within gas-giant planets - and faeros, fiery creatures inhabiting suns, continues to sweep across the Spiral Arm, extinguishing suns and destroying planets. It is a time when Chairman Basil Wenceslas of the Terran Hanseatic League and his figurehead King Peter must unify all branches of the human race to stand together against the threat even if they must resort to deception and oppression to do so.
But the freedom-loving Roamer clans and the forest-dwelling people of Theroc, whose "green priests" can communicate across vast distances through a network of sentient worldtrees, will not give up their independence so easily.
Categories should be named: <del>"<b>Category:<i>State_Name</i>_state_highways</b>"</del>
The iron-fist policies of Chairman Wenceslas force the disparate civilizations to forge alliances of their own, creating turmoil that may break human civilization apart, as surely as the destructive Hydrogues will.
example: <del>[[:Category:New_York_state_highways]]</del>
Partly as a distraction from their peril, partly as a desperate hope, the Hanseatic League launches an ambitious new colonization program using the new network of alien transportals, instantaneous gateways that take hardy pioneers to settle new worlds once abandoned by the ancient insectlike Klikiss race. But the new territory comes with its own dangers and deeply buried mysteries.
:I very much disagree. Possibly "state highways in State", but that isn't even always correct - for instance in Massachusetts the category would not be for state highways - roads maintained by the state - but for state-numbered routes. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 20:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
::SPUI - I have no problem with what the name should be. I was using what the defacto standard is (36 are using this naming pattern - see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Highways/U.S._state_highway_naming_conventions#Table_of_current_conventions]] ). Alaska is the only one currently using that naming pattern you suggest. Should we NOT have a std naming pattern for categories of numbered highways in the US then, and have it tailored for each state? --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 17:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
:::This isn't about how things currently are, but a proposal to fix things. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 19:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
::::Understood that from the beginning, and I was suggesting using the current format. So, in your opinion, should we have a naming convention for categories of numbered highways? --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 21:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::I'm not sure. Right now I'm more interested in the article names. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 21:24, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
In the ancient Ildiran Empire, Jora'h - the newly crowned Mage-Imperator - must face the awful responsibilities and sinister secrets his predecessors have imposed upon him: from the extensive breeding program forced upon a colony of hopeless human captives, to a surprising and uneasy pact with the beetle-like Klikiss robots that could result in the total extinction of the human race. But Jora'h must also survive a threat no other Mage-Imperator has faced in ten thousand years - open rebellion among the Ildirans, an astonishing civil war and a challenge to his rule that could break apart the entire Empire.
Agreed with SPUI. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 23:40, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
===Book 4: Scattered Suns (2005)===
Suggestion: "Numbered Routes in <i>State Name</i>". This would be more in line with the proposed article titles "Route <i>N (State Name)</i>". This covers Interstates, US numbered routes, state numbered routes and even if wanted, county numbered routes. Currently some of the the categories, and some of the lists include not just routes numbered by the named state, so these inclusive categories/lists might be better titled just "Numbered Routes in..." (BTW: shouldn't all this discussion be moved to the [[Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions/Numbered_highways|talk-page]]?)--[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 15:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
:Honestly I think that may be too broad. I can't speak for other states but there is too big a distinction between state highways and county routes for them to share a category.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 17:39, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
::That is way too broad. We need "State Highways in New York" or "State Routes in California" (whatever the state uses). Besides we already have a separate WP and cat for CA County Routes. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 22:01, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
:::"Numbered routes" would take in all numbered routes within a state. Interstates, US Routes, state routes and county routes. If you are thinking of having a category that would just be for the state-numbered routes then the category should probably be "State numbered routes in New York", or just "State routes in New York" since "numbered" is then superfluous. SO: I guess we need to go on a state-by-state basis then, and have no system-wide convention? But we could have a standard like "State <i>DOT-convention</i> in <i>State Name</i>", where <i>DOT-convention</i> would vary by state, so for instance in NY it would be <i>routes</i> since that is how NYSDOT refers to the state-numbered roads. In other states, the equivalent of the NYSDOT must each have some formal name that can be used. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 16:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Scattered_Suns.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of Scattered Suns.]]
All please refer to [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Lowercase_second_and_subsequent_words|WP naming conventions]], and [[Wikipedia:Stub_types_for_deletion#.7B.7BNewYork-State-Highway-stub.7D.7D|Discussion on NewYork-State-Highway-stub name]] where [[User:Alai|Alai]] makes points on the whole topic of capitalization relevant to this discussion. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 18:04, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The destructive Hydrogues continue their war against humans and the fiery entities, the Faeros -a struggle that kills planets and extinguishes whole stars. Newly crowned Mage-Imperator Jora'h, the leader of the ancient and vast Ildiran Empire, struggles with the knowledge that the Hydrogues are only willing to give them peace if they help destroy the humans. But Jora'h's empire is destroying itself from within, when his mad brother launches a bloody rebellion across the Ildiran planets, appointing Jora'h's own first-born son as its leader.
In the Terran Hanseatic League, Chairman Basil Wenceslas continues his red-herring war against the Roamer clans, eager to achieve a decisive victory, even against a supposed enemy that poses no threat. Their homes destroyed, the wandering Roamers scatter into hiding, trying to keep their culture and government intact, even when faced with enemies from all sides.
==What to do now?==
Cesca Peroni, leader of the Roamers, finds herself stranded on a small icy outpost where miners have uncovered a hibernating army of alien Klikiss robots. Once released, these robots trigger another dark and ancient plot, one that could lead to a massacre across all human-inhabited planets. In a galaxy torn by war, treachery, and shifting alliances, it is clear that many of the races are untrustworthy, and that they are likely to turn on each other.
Well there are three issues that we need settled before we start gaining consensus.
===Book 5: Of Fire And Night (July 2006)===
# Do we have [[State Route 15 (California)]] or [[California State Route 15]]?
# Do we have a uniform convention? In other words, can we have [[California State Highway 17]] when all the other articles are at [[California State Route 24]]?
# Do we use capitals in the template, stub, category, and list forms?
[[Image:Of_Fire_And_Night.jpg|thumb|250px|right|Cover image of Of Fire and Night.]]
A uniform convention is a must though. I'd prefer to have [[California State Route 15]] and [[List of California State Routes]], but we may need to go to a state-by-state basis. That may have to occur. But if we settle on something we all can defend then I think we're all set. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 05:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
The extermination of mankind is at hand. In a war against alien races, killer robots, and elemental beings, Earth slips deeper into desperation. The Terran government always knew the hydrogues were a vicious enemy bent on humanity’s destruction, but they didn’t predict how many other factions would turn against them.
*Honestly, I think that looks like shit. I will not support any model that does not include the current infobox.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 06:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
**And to answer the questions
#I say stay with California State Route XX
#Yes we can have an exception or two as they do not cause any confusion and are based on common use principles
#And yes we should use capitals.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 06:46, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
With his increasingly irrational leadership, Chairman Basil Wenceslas has driven humanity into a corner. The Chairman’s punitive treatment of Hansa colonies and free-spirited Roamers, as well as his refusal to aid the burned forest world of Theroc, has made enemies all around. Enemies that Earth cannot afford.
:Which box specifically is poorly designed? Suggested corrections please?
:1. I prefer using accepted WP disambiguation rules so in this order:
Earth’s own Soldier compies have rebelled, taking over much of the military, stealing ships and slaughtering crews across the galaxy. Even our staunch allies the Ildirans, led by Mage-Imperator Jora’h, are secretly scheming with the hydrogues to exterminate the human race.
::*Route 15 (California State) - there might also be Route 15 (Orange County California)
::*State Route 15 (California) - then also County Route 15 (Orange California) or (Orange County California)
::*California State Route 15 - then also Orange County California Route 15
:::I used "Orange County" in these examples because there is more than one Orange County in the U.S. I can certainly see the merits of using the third option as a preference because of the way someone might search for a route. However, I don't believe that article names should be determined by any search engine weakness.
:2. Each state should have uniformly named articles, which should be named according to the naming convention used by that state's DOT or similar governmental body.
:3. Capitalization should be done according to English language proper noun rules. Categories and lists, and stubs are not titles.
:--[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:25, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
As the war continues to go badly for Earth, the remaining factions of humanity plan for their own salvation. Worldtrees allied with “green priests” on Theroc have rallied hulking, thorny tree battleships, while Roamers work with powerful water entities, the wentals, to seed scattered planets with a growing force to challenge the hydrogues.
::The new design all around is poorly designed, hence I've reverted it. There is no need to redesign any of the CA state route articles. The infoboxes are fine the way they are, and any changes to those is just people creating work for the sake of working. The debate should remain focused on the names, not a massive redesign of the pages that is totally not needed. I also oppose all of your ideas for the names, including the ones related to California County Routes. They are California County Routes first... ie [[Santa Clara County Route G2]]. They are not [[County Route G2 (Santa Clara County)]] according to the state. [[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 16:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
After Chairman Wenceslas has alienated and cut off so many potential allies, it seems clear that Earth is not well defended, and that it may be destroyed.
:::I had to look at your contributions for the answer to my question since you weren't specific about what was poorly designed. I see you have reduced the sizes of the signage images on a few CR pages. I'm still not sure what <i>new design</i> you are referring to, unless you mean "Template:Routeboxca2". Your comments in regard to infoboxes seem misplaced for this discussion. You can see I haven't edited those pages nor have I discussed them. I was just using the same examples [[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] had started with above.
:::As far as the names (which <b>is</b> the subject here) of articles, categories, stubs and lists, I was refering to [[Wikipedia:Disambiguation|the accepted guideline for disambiguation]]. You may not agree with this guideline in general and/or you may not agree with it specifically for roads, but it is the accepted wiki guideline. Or can you point out why roads should be exempt from the guideline? After all it is only a guideline.
:::This naming discussion was not my suggestion, and at first I was thinking it wasn't a good move, but have changed my mind after researching the disambiguation guidelines. Specifically I started the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_New_York_State_routes|WikiProject_New_York_State_routes]], and since almost all of the NY Route articles are mis-named "New York State Highway <i>N</i>" (They are not called "highways", but rather "New York State Route <i>N</i>"), a discussion on article names was called for, but a general naming discusion was already under way here, so I participated to find out what we should call the NY route pages. So anyway, please spell out your reason(s) for exempting roads from the disambiguation guidelines. Thanks. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 19:05, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
::::They are '''not''' named "New York State Route X". They are named "Route X". --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 22:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::True enough, locally they are "Route X", but as for reasons stated, that name will not suffice on an international encyclopedia with a poor search engine. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 18:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
===Book 6: Metal Swarm (Due out December 2007)[http://www.wordfire.com/seven.html]===
**Not sure what is meant by the infobox. This is [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions]] that deals only with titles. And disambiguation does not have a place here because... who exactly will type in [[State Route 15]]? Most people would think to type in a state, considering that there are 52 other states/territories? Or considering that Mexico has states? Also, Wikipedia is written for an international audience, and noone from England would type in [[State Route 15]]. I mean [[State Route 15]] is an ambiguous term but noone would type just State Route 15 into the search field. And using the county name doesn't work because... well [[Imperial County Route S2]] for example isn't just Imperial County... it goes between counties actually. Same for most Calfornia State Routes. The problem here is that we have to take all states into consideration here. In regards to the other concerns... we can't have one or two articles that don't conform. Before we know it then we'll have to have a debate for every single article to find the most common name. Then that will be outrageous, and I don't think I'll stick around if that happens. The capitals... need to be used in the "generic" form since "California State Route" is a specific capitalized phrase. We don't call them "Boy scouts" for example. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 03:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[[Image:Metal_Swarm.JPG|thumb|150px|right|Cover image of Metal Swarm.]]
***Sorry I mistook SPUI's changes removing the infobox on [[CA-15]] (check that page's history...) as part of this discussion.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 06:40, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
:So Rschen7754 what you are saying is that because the search engine in WP has weaknesses, we should title the articles to compensate for that. In other words searching for "California Route 15" won't find Route 15 (California) therefore the disambiguation guidelines should have a disclaimer that the search engine may not find the article if you use disambiguation. You are correct unfortunately. Searching on "Orleans musician John Hall" does NOT find "John Hall (musician Orleans)", so we are forced to NOT use the disambiguation guideline, until the search engine is improved.
:As far as the capitalization is concerned, the article names should be capitalized for roads such as "California State Route 15" since this a proper noun. The list of state routes in California should be "List of California state routes" (or "List of state routes in California" altho that's longer). "Boy Scouts" is also a proper noun, but you don't say "My friend John Hall is a Boy Scout", or "My friend, the Boy Scout John Hall". No the proper capitalization to use according to English language rules is "My friend John Hall is a boy scout". When you are refering to a group of items, the capitalization does not apply to the group name. Having said that, I see that WP lists sometimes do and sometimes do not follow the proper rules of capitalization. Frankly, I don't really care if you want to make the lists capitalized like "LIST OF CALIFORNIA STATE ROUTES" if you insist. I see you prefer to have the lists capitalized just like a book or song title and altho that is incorrect, it won't make one iota of difference in the content if that is how the lists are named.
:BTW suggesting you will not participate anymore is not a way to gain respect in conducting a discussion to sway people to your position. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
:::I was saying that if Wikipedia did get that chaotic then I wouldn't have the time to deal with the chaos. But anyway. With the Boy Scout example, that phrase needs to be capitalized because... well he could be a scout, and a boy.,.. thus he could be a boy scout without being in the organization? As for the disambiguation or whatever, most Wikipedians expect for the article to be named "California State Route 15". We should use the most logical method to name these articles- using the same naming convention yet not using some obscure disambiguation convention. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 22:37, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The alien hydrogues have been defeated, driven back into the cores of their gas-giant planets by an alliance of the Earth Defence Forces, the ancient Ildiran Empire, the gypsy-like Roamer clans and fantasic water elemental beings as well as gigantic living 'treeships'. But as the various factions try to pick up the pieces and recover, the deep-seated wounds may be fatal. The Hansa's brutal Chairman Basil Wenceslas struggles to crush any resistance even as King Peter breaks away to form his own new Confederation among the green priests on Theroc, the Roamer clans and an ever-growing number of breakaway colonies who have declared their independence.
Personally, I'll go either way on this. I'd look to see which convention is used more, and then standardise on that (as it would be less work for everyone)....[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 02:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
:Scott, unfortunately the search engine can't handle the disambiguation guideline so there is no option really. [[User:SPUI|SPUI]] (RIP - until he rises again) had suggested this new naming idea ( eg Route N(State Name) ) before he abandoned ship and I think it had merit, but alas it won't work on WP. I think we need to go with <i>State Name</i> State Route|Highway <i>N</i>, where use of "Route" or "Highway" depends on the DOT naming convention of the state.
:I think we all agree that capitalization will be Each_Word_Init_Cap for article names (as it should be since they are proper nouns). Caps for lists, stubs and categories are still debatable, but there are some who think that WP should capitalize all words in these also, although this is not proper English. We can put any of these up to vote, or just reach a consensus here perhaps. I am willing to go along with Init_Caps on everything if that is easiest and if that will end the debate because content is what we should be focused on anyway.--[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 15:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
::To clarify, I meant what was used overall on the highway articles, so we wouldn't have to do a million page moves. I've been creating Oklahoma articles at ''Oklahoma State Highway x'' rather than the parenthesis disambig, so that's my personal preference, although we obviously need some sort of standard. I'll support whatever we eventually decide on....[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 19:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
BTW, the Interstate pages do use this disambiguation technique (eg [[Interstate 190 (New York)]], [[Interstate 190 (Illinois)]]), but I don't think there are too many searches for "New York Interstate 190". --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 21:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Like jackals smelling wounded prey, swarms of ancient black robots built by the lost insectoid Klikiss race continue their depredations on helpless worlds with stolen and heavily armed Earth battleships. A race of capricious and terrifying fiery elementals, the faeros, has joined with an Ildiran madman to declare war against all life. And the original, voracious Klikiss race - long thought to be extinct - have returned, intent on conquering their former worlds and willing to annihilate anyone who happens to be in the way.
So are we pretty much decided on the using "California State Route 45", "Florida State Road 23", etc. standard? I'm just concerned because we're being killed in the SFD and CFD debates. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 04:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
:I would support that. ...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 03:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
:Why don't we disambiguate properly? --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 01:25, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
::See above. Disambiguation is used when there is a term that is often confused with two or more differing things, such as [[mercury]]. This is because people do search for phrases like [[mercury]]. (By search for, I mean that they put it in the search box or append it to the end of <nowiki>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/</nowiki>). But noone would search for [[State Route 15]]. They would search for [[California State Route 15]]. The state DOTs don't use the state name at the front because... well it's obvious and understood what state the route is in. But if like, say there was a national conference or something of DOTs then they would use [[California State Route 15]]. That's what the official names are. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 02:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
:::AASHTO does not use the state name. See for instance page 2 of [http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/1997-USRN_Cmte.pdf]. Same for [[Talk:Interstate 73#1995|federal laws]]. Someone looking for Interstate 5 in the U.S. will not type in U.S. Interstate 5. Why would someone looking for State Road 50 in Florida type in Florida State Road 50? --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 17:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
::::But why would someone search for "Interstate 5 (U.S.)"? And the U.S. is understood so this isn't the best example. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 04:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::::Why would someone search for "U.S. Interstate 5"? Why is the U.S. understood? Why couldn't Australia have had a system of roads named "Interstate X"? --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 07:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
===Final Book 7: The Ashes of Worlds (Due out in 2008)===
:I will also support "<i>State Name</i> Route|Highway <i>N</i>" where Route|Highway is determined by that state's DOT (or similar agancy) naming standard. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
My input:
# I'd say put the state name first, parenthesized disambiguation should only be used if multiple subjects have the exact same name and cannot be disabiguated otherwise (words such as Mercury), this is why we have [[Annapolis, Maryland]] as an article title and not [[Annapolis (Maryland)]].
# I'd allow this, as long as there is a redirect from the "standard" naming convention, ie. California State Route 17 redirects to California State Highway 17
# Capitalization depends on the usage. The names of individual routes are capatalized, but the generic terms (highway, business route, state highway, Delaware state route, etc.) are not since they are not [[Noun#Proper nouns and common nouns|proper nouns]]. Note: this is already covered by the [[Wikipedia:Naming convention (capitalization)|current naming convention]]
[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] <sup>[[user talk:Jeff02|(talk)]]</sup> 17:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
::Parenthesized disambiguation is never "necessary". We prefer to use parentheses rather than middle initials for names. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 17:51, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
::So you support the seemingly random naming of articles such as [[California 1]], [[CA-2]], [[CA 3]], [[Ca 4]], [[California Highway 5]], [[California Hwy 6]], [[California Route 7]], [[CA Route 8]], [[California State Highway 9]], [[California State Route 10]], [[State Route 11 (California)]], [[Route 12 (CA)]], [[Highway 13 (CA)]], [[Route 14 (California)]], [[Highway 15 (California)]], [[The 16 (California)]], etc. And if we allow "one or two exceptions", then what exactly prevents this from happening? Also, where does it say that components of a specific system are common nouns? --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 04:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't support things going to that extreme, but if there are certain exceptions for certain routes (sorry don't know what the case is with CA 17), then we should follow those exceptions, agian provided that a redirect is provided from the "standard" convention.
:::As for capitalization, check [[Noun#Proper nouns and common nouns]]
:::"Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities. For example, "Janet", "Jupiter" and "Germany" are proper nouns. Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them. This fails, however, in German, in which nouns of all types are capitalized.
==Timeline==
:::All other nouns are called common nouns. For example, "girl", "planet", and "country" are common nouns."
Ca. 1940's - Ildirans discover Klikiss robots on Hyrillka ice moons.
:::Terms such as those I gave as examples in my previous comment are not the names of unique (as in individual) entities, they are generic terms that can each refer to a number of things. [[Delaware Route 1]] and [[Delaware Route 404]] can each be identified as a Delaware state route for example.[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] <sup>[[user talk:Jeff02|(talk)]]</sup> 05:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
::::But in this case it is a specific grouping. Like United States Senators. It refers to a collective group of people. There are no other United States Senators out there except for the 100 United States Senators. Thus capitalization. (And thus Wikipedia capitalizes it.) Coming to think of it, the only usage of the singular "generic" is in the stub form. In other words, the only time we use "California State Route" by itself (in regards to naming) is in the stub template. And specifically you may not support things going to the extreme above, but if we allow one or two exceptions, what exactly prevents us from going there? People can scream "common names" all they want and that is what will happen. But if we don't allow any exceptions, then we won't have that problem. It's like the discussion at [[Template talk:Interstates]]: Sure, Interstate 64 may be more important and may be more "major" than Interstate 30 and thus be more deserving of the pink background. But if we let that exception go by, we open up the door here: then we make another exception. And another. Soon we get people voting for their favorite Interstate, and we have individual debates for each Interstate. See the problem here? Because now we're looking at having many individual debates on what the articles are called. Of the same scale as [[Talk:California State Highway 17]]. Maybe not for every article but for still, 20-30 at least. At that time, we would be focusing more on names than on content. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 05:19, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
2100 - ''Peary'', ''Balboa'', ''Marco Polo''; first 'Generation' ships to depart from Earth.
The slippery slope argument is uncompelling. Project-specific policies must also adhere to the "common names" policy. When you move an article to a title that is not the common name, then you are sacrificing usability, and usability the paramount concern of Wikipedia. I '''strongly oppose''' the parts of this convention that violate the "common names" policy. Articles should be titled by their common names. In the case of California state highways, the common name is almost always "Highway X" where X is the number of highway, not "route", which is a term that is overwhelming used only by bureaucrats in Sacramento, and, apparently, their sycophants on Wikipedia. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 06:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
2103 - ''Burton'', ''Caillie'' depart.
:The problem is that common names ''don't work as well with roads as they do other things''. Highways often run through a wide variety of areas, even within the same state, and are known by different names in different areas. Take [[Oklahoma State Highway 74]] for instance. Part of it is a freeway in northwest Oklahoma City, and there it's called the Lake Hefner Parkway. However, the same designation, 74, runs a long distance in either direction through rural areas where it's called SH-74 or Highway 74 or just "74" (see ''On Oklahoma'' above.) There is certainly common usage in a region but there is no ''overall'' common usage. I imagine there's a lot more people referring to that freeway as Lake Hefner Parkway than there are rural people calling it just Highway 74, but that's because there's a lot more people in the OKC area than there are in places like [[Crescent, Oklahoma]]. And besides, the rest of it ''isn't'' the Lake Hefner Parkway, just that freeway segment.
2104 - ''Amundsen'' departs.
:Also, it's very difficult to go out and see what the most common usage for a highway ''is''. [[Oklahoma State Highway 3]] is six hundred miles long - and I don't have the resources to go up to the Panhandle to see what they call the thing in [[Boise City, Oklahoma|Boise City]] (probably nothing, as it's duplexed with other things up there). There's also really no way to compare the popularity of regional names with each other without running up and down the length of highway asking "excuse me, but what do y'all call this highway anyway?"
2106 - ''Clark'', ''Vichy'' depart.
:Since there are a lot of different regional usages, it's just easiest for everyone to use the offical names and provide a redirect to help out. When someone gets redirected once, they'll get an idea of what the naming convention is (''oh, hey, I guess Wikipedia's naming them "California State Route x"; I'll look there first next time...''). That way usability isn't sacrificed and we have consistency - which is really the goal of naming conventions, correct? ...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 22:38, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
2109 - ''Stroganov'' departs.
::I'm sorry you have trouble gauging the common name of certain highways in Oklahoma. Your troubles, however, have no bearing on the fact that ''no one but Caltrans bureaucrats'' calls California's Highway 17 "Route 17". In this case it's not a question of regional usage; it's just a case of outsiders trying to impose an article title that reflects a naming standard that is completely divorced from the reality of what name the vast majority of people who use the road actually use to refer to it. The ''only'' argument in favor of calling it "Route 17" is to adhere to a standard naming convention. Every single other piece of evidence would indicate that the best name is "Highway 17". If we accept your argument and impose a standard naming scheme then we create situations like naming the article about Highway 17 something like "State Route 17", which is a name that hardly anyone uses. This kind of situation, where an article has a title that represents a very uncommon name, is just not acceptable nor defensible by Wikipedia policy, especially when we consider that using a consistent naming scheme only benefits the people who make the encyclopedia, not the people who use it. Your use case of someone memorizing the standard naming scheme is not really a valid argument against having exceptions because there will always be redirects and anyone who remembers the standard naming scheme will have no trouble at all finding the article they are looking for. I have yet to see any compelling arguments at all for how a consistent naming scheme benefits the ''readers'' of the encyclopedia, the people who we are supposed to be trying to benefit. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 07:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
2110 - ''Abel-Wexler'' departs.
Isn't a factor to weigh carefully in determining what the "common name" is, is "what do most of the road signs say?"? Unless there's strong evidence that a particular usage is generally more prevalent, or where that is itself inconsistent along a road's route, that seems a pretty useful starting point. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
:The signs display the highway shields. Which are images... --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 05:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
::Ah, I thought most of the shields had at least some sort of text, besides the number. If that's just the interstates I'm thinking of (or I'm generally confused), and that's the most prevalent of form of signage, I see the problem... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 05:47, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Some do but a lot don't. 19 states do have the state name or initials on them, but "South Carolina" must be abbreviated or it would make the sign too big... --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 06:04, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah - see [[list of state route markers]]. All or those with text just have the state name or an abbreviation. On the other hand, state-posted street signs can be useful. For instance, in Florida, they always say "SR X" (short for State Road). --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 06:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
::And larger signs (directional information and such rather than markers) use the same iconography? Oh well. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 07:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
:::Yep - see [[commons:Category:Road signs in the United States]]. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 07:24, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
2113 - ''Kanaka'' departs, last Generation ship.
==Voting==
OK Let's try to wrap this up. (Two weeks is enough time to have sorted out your thoughts on this)
#We can't use the disambiguation of "Route X (State Name)" because the search engine won't work on it, if for no other reason (but there are other reasons).
#Within a state, the names of the articles should be consistent if possible. Preferably they are all of the same naming pattern, with redirects as needed for roads known by more than one name. Across the whole US roads project? Not possible.
#Capitalization of lists, categories, templates, stubs, is a whole other discussion, with those on each side apparently entrenched in doing it their way. I suggest we put this item off as a separate topic and focus on the first two.--[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 18:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
2196 - ''Kanaka'' leaves colony at Meyer rubble belt; becomes Rendezvous.
*The only model I support is as follows [[California State Route XX]], unless a state disallows it like Florida. There is no need to be uniform across the US because the states certainly aren't anyway.[[User:JohnnyBGood|JohnnyBGood]] 23:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
2200 - Christian Gellar made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
===Disambiguation by use of (State Name)===
*No. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 18:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
*Yes. I don't understand what the problems are; redirects can take care of any supposed searching problems. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 01:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*No. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 03:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*No. [[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 05:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*Neutral. ...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 15:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Yes'''. Strange as it sounds, if the desire is to tie together all the state highways under the "State Route x" banner, this is the best way. It sounds as though there's use for it. There's also about 1,000 of these that need to be made... —[[User:Lpangelrob|<span style="font-variant: small-caps">Rob</span>]] <span style="font-size:x-small">(</span>[[User_talk:Lpangelrob|<span style='color:#006600; font-size:x-small;'>talk</span>]]<span style="font-size:x-small">)</span> 17:40, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''No'''. Problems include issues with double disambiguation, and states that don't simply name their routes "State <Whatever> X" (what would we name Maryland articles when Maryland names its routes Maryland X?)[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] <sup>[[user talk:Jeff02|(talk)]]</sup> 04:02, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
**I assume if it's clearly established that the common name is "Maryland X", the article would go at "Maryland X" under this proposal too. But if it's clearly estbalished that the common name is "State Route X" (etc, etc), this would put it at "State Route X (California)", rather than "California State Route X". (It's the "clearly establishing" part I'm struggling with, either way...) Double disambiguation as in...? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
***Yeah, that's what the proposal is. If there's a conflict with other things named "Maryland X", it might be disambiguated "Maryland X (state highway)". --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 20:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Yes''' per SPUI. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 23:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
2215 - Roseanna Burke made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
===Consistent Names within a State, not across US project tho===
*Yes. Why argue for '''in'''consistency? --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 18:23, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strongly oppose''' any convention which contradicts "use common names" naming convention. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 22:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC). I also expect that there will difficulty trying to implement any such policy. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 00:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support.''' ...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 23:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
*Support. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 01:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*Support. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 03:46, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support wholeheartedly''' if it will stop the madness that started at CA 17.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 05:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support'''. —[[User:Lpangelrob|<span style="font-variant: small-caps">Rob</span>]] <span style="font-size:x-small">(</span>[[User_talk:Lpangelrob|<span style='color:#006600; font-size:x-small;'>talk</span>]]<span style="font-size:x-small">)</span> 17:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''': consistency within states should not be hard to achieve as each state has a system. [[User:Jonathunder|Jonathunder]] 18:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I don't see that this conflicts with "common names": this is just a matter of ''stylistic'' consistency, and of course shouldn't be applied in any case where a completely different name is applied predominantly. Please correct me if I'm wrong. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Leave it within the states.[[User:Rt66lt|Rt66lt]] 01:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support''', unless there are exceptions such as a state having two separate systems or a route being designated differently by the DOT for historical reasons.[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] <sup>[[user talk:Jeff02|(talk)]]</sup> 13:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 23:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strongly support''' - [[User:FCYTravis|FCYTravis]] 22:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
2221 - King Ben crowned on Earth.
==Consistent names within a state==
There seems to be pretty good consensus for this part - let's try to come up with a proposal to put through the bureaucracy. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 23:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
:I think we should get a consensus on both items before we move forward, just so we don't rehash everything 2x. I'd like to see a few more votes occuring either way for the disambiguation item first. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
2223 - William Danforth Pape made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
Each highway falls into an individual and specific numbering system, assigned by a (usually) governmental body. For instance, the [[United States Numbered Highways]] are assigned by the [[American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials]], the [[State Highway Routes in New Jersey]] are assigned by the [[New Jersey Department of Transportation]], and the [[Great Britain road numbering scheme]] is assigned by the [[Highways Agency]]. Each system shall be considered on its own when deciding naming conventions.
2230 - Mage-Imperator Yura'h ascends.
Every highway in the system shall use the same naming convention (unless it is a redirect to a highway in a different system - either a higher system, like [[State Route 80 (California)]] to [[Interstate 80]], or the local name of the road, like [[State Road 300 (Florida)]] to [[St. George Island Bridge]]).
2243 - Malcolm Stannis made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
This proposal does not specify a naming or disambiguation convention for the state. It only specifies that in each system, a common convention shall be used.
:Perhaps a preference for the official names in use by the DOT should be stated? ...[[User:Scott5114|Scott]]<sup>[[User_talk:Scott5114|5114]]</sup> 03:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
::That doesn't have wide agreement. Let's get this through and then figure out that stuff. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 03:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
:We need to specifically reference that the common name takes precedence for the article name, with re-directs from less-common name(s) or even the official name, as per [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28common_names%29]] guidelines, like was implied with the redirect of [[State Road 300 (Florida)]] to [[St. George Island Bridge]]. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 14:08, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
::Why? This is a proposal for the naming of articles that contain the route number in their title. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 17:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:::True enough, but the redirect of [[State Road 300 (Florida)]] to [[St. George Island Bridge]] is a good example of an exception that follows the common-name rule apparently. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 19:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd argue that it just follows a different rule - that for bridges - as in this case the bridge is more prominent than the state road. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 20:11, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
2244 - Ildirans encounter ''Caillie''; Theroc established as colony.
So is a reasonable first stab at the intended scope of this something along the lines of: "Where the most common name of a road is as part of a state-wide numbering system, all such names are to be consistent within each state"? i.e. it doesn't propose to trump "St. George Island Bridge" as the common name, but simply to make state-wide consistent "State Road 800 (Florida)" vs. "Florida State Road 800" vs. "SR 800 (Florida)" vs... [[User:Alai|Alai]] 19:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
:Yeah, something like that. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 19:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
::Yes. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 19:53, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
2245 - Ildirans come to Earth, search for more Generation ships.
== And the common names are... ==
2247 - ''Kanaka'' found, settlers taken to Iawa.
The current straw polls seem to imply... well, not very much, without determining what the common names actually are, presumably on a state-by-state, or system-by-system basis. (Unless either is proposing to overrule common names, which doesn't appear to be the case.) Are there any cases in which that's fairly generally agreed, to start off with? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 23:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
2249 - Compy OX returns to Earth.
:By some interpretations of "use common names", this would overrule "use common names" within the state. For instance, northern California often uses "Highway XX", while southern California uses "The XX". Ducksheep City, California may use "Quackbaa XX". But we'd have to use a system-wide name throughout the state. Thus [[California State Highway 17]] would not be there unless we agree that everything is titled "California State Highway XX". This does '''not''' say anything about State Type XX vs. Type XX (State), though I would argue that the disambiguation conventions specify the latter, whether or not this part passes. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 04:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Thara Wen (14 years old) becomes the first to 'take the green'.
Here is what I propose: After the principles are approved, we start with what we have at the table on the Highways WikiProject. Then we change any we don't like. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 04:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
:Assuming what's in the table is what's still used - I haven't necessarily updated it since I've fixed Florida, New Jersey and Massachusetts. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]] - <small>[[User:SPUI/SFD|don't use sorted stub templates!]]</small>) 04:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
2250 - Roamers begin skymining operations at Daym and elsewhere.
I can't speak specifically to a CA standard which also seems to have the most debate, but state standards would imply using the most commonly used nomenclature for the whole state, with local exceptions being the common name for specific articles. The CA team should vote on the state standard and deal with the exceptions on a one-by-one basis. Each state will have its own set of contributors who should do the same. This only pushes naming standard arguments down the state level since there is majority agreement here that it is not possible to achieve a standard on the national or international level. --[[User:Censorwolf|Censorwolf]] 15:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
:But doesn't that contradict with the second principle above? That there are no exceptions? --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]]) ''' 21:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
2253 - Francine Meyer made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
Using the common names could be problematic for larger states, since some of them use different conventions in different parts of the state (like California). I wouldn't mind doing this though with smaller states that use consistent conventions across the state, as long as we choose the most unambiguous convention that is used across the state. For example, in Maryland, when people are refering to a state highway, and are trying to be as unambiguous as possible, they will refer to it as "Maryland Route X", and more casually they will say either "Route X" or simply "X" (as in the number by itself), of course Wikipedia would favor the more unambiguous term. For larger states, I'd say it would be better to use the DOT convention so we aren't favoring any particular region.[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] <sup>[[user talk:Jeff02|(talk)]]</sup> 16:07, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
2254 - Dobro experiments begin.
First Klikiss ruins (Llaro) reported by Madeliene Robinson.
Theroc officially delcares its independence from the Hansa.
King Ben poisoned; King George crowned.
2270 - Adam Cho made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2274 - King Christopher crowned.
2291 - Bertram Goswell made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2298 - Regan Chalmers made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2299 - Sandra Abel-Wexler made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2307 - King Jack crowned.
2315 - Clare Faso made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2323 - King Bartholomew crowned.
2337 - Mage-Imperator Yura'h dies; Cyroc'h ascends.
2338 - Miguel Byron made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2347 - Tam Charles Wicinsky made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2352 - Uthair and Lia Theron born.
2357 - Bram Tamblyn born.
2359 - Caleb Tamblyn born.
Robert Roberts II made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2360 - Andrew Tamblyn born.
2363 - Wynn and Torin tamblyn born.
2367 - Kelly Kirk made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2372 - Alexa Theron born.
2373 - Uthair and Lia Theron become Father and Mother of Theroc.
2375 - Yarrod Theron born.
2376 - Karla Baker born.
2380 - Maureen Fitzpatrick made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2381 - King Frederick crowned.
2389 - Ronald Palomar made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2390 - Margaret and Louis Colicos married.
2397 - Ross Tamblyn born.
2400 - Idriss and Alexa married.
2402 - Reynald Theron born.
Jess Tamblyn born.
2403 - Beneto Theron born. Uthair and Lia Theron retire.
2406 - Sarein Theron born.
Basil Wenceslas made Chairman of Terran Hanseatic League.
2408 - Nira Khali born.
2411 - Tasia Tamblyn born.
2413 - Raymod Aguerra born.
2415 - Estarra Theron born.
2417 - Celli Theron born.
2427 - Oncier ignited with Klikiss Torch.
Ross Tamblyn dies.
King Peter crowned.
==See also==
* [[Species of 'Saga of the Seven Suns'|Races and Species]]
* Characters: [[Ildirans]], [[Humans in 'Saga of Seven Suns'|Humans]]
* [[Planets of 'Saga of the Seven Suns'|Planets]]
* [[Ships of 'Saga of the Seven Suns|Ships]]
* [[Saga of Seven Suns Species List|Species List]]
==External links==
*[http://www.wordfire.com Kevin J. Anderson's web site]
*{{isfdb name|id=Kevin_J._Anderson|name=Kevin J. Anderson}}
* [http://freesfonline.de/authors/andersonkj.html Kevin J. Anderson's online fiction] at ''Free Speculative Fiction Online''
*[http://boards.theforce.net/Authors_&_Artists/b10347/5816881/?112 Kevin J. Anderson discussion at theforce.net Message Boards]
*[http://www.funtrivia.com/quizzes/literature/authors_a-c/kevin_j_anderson.html Saga of Seven Suns quizzes at Funtrivia.com]
[[Category:Science fiction book series]]
[[Category:Space opera]]
[[Category:Saga of the Seven Suns]]
[[de:Saga der Sieben Sonnen]]
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