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'''[http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump&action=edit§ion=new Post a question now]''' if you don't want to wait for the whole page to be loaded. On the other hand, please consider skimming through this page to see if your question might have already been asked (and even answered) by other people already. Also, '''please do not''' push the "save page" button multiple times when posting this way! The server is overloaded, but it usually will respond eventually, dutifully adding your question to the page several times in a row.
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<font color=red>'''Quick reference on server status'''</font>
* '''The database server / web server for the other wikis ("pliny") is <font color=green>online</font>'''
** Motherboard and CPUs have been replaced (2003-10-14), which hopefully will eliminate the frequent crashes we've had
* '''The regular webserver for the English-language Wikipedia ("larousse") is <font color=green>online</font>'''.
** Back online 2003-10-14, running on older, slower processor temporarily
** Faster processors and memory are being tested now (2003-10-17) and should be put back in soon if all is well
** some visits to www.wikipedia.org redirected to en2.wikipedia.org on the faster pliny
* '''The new database monster is <font color="red">going to be ordered real soon.</font>'''
** fund raising resulted in enough money to buy a new bigger and faster database server
** pliny and larousse will share the webserver load once the new box is online
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'''Related pages''': [[Wikipedia:Mailing lists|Mailing lists]] - [[Wikipedia:IRC channel|IRC]] - [[Wikipedia:Instant Messaging Wikipedians|IM a Wikipedian]] - [[Wikipedia:Talk page|Talk pages]] - [[Wikipedia talk:Software updates]]
<table align="right"><tr><td> [[Image:Village_pump_yellow.png]]</tr></td></table>
[[Wikipedia:Welcome, newcomers|Welcome, newcomers]] and baffled oldtimers! This is where Wikipedians raise and try to answer ''Wikipedia-related'' questions and concerns regarding technical issues, policies, and operation in our community. However:
* To raise a bug report, or suggest a feature, see [[wikipedia:bug reports|bug reports]].
* To request peer review of an article you've written, see [[Wikipedia:Peer review]]
* For remarks and questions on the contents of an article, use the "Discuss this page" link at that article to arrive at the corresponding Talk page.
* If you have other questions about anything else in the Universe or life, try [[Wikipedia:Reference desk|Reference desk]].
To facilitate ease of browsing and replying, please:
# Place your questions '''at the bottom''' of the list
#* Use '''[http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump&action=edit§ion=new this edit link] to directly add a new question to the bottom.
# '''Title''' the question (by typing == ''title'' ==)
#* If you use the edit link above, just enter a subject
# '''Sign''' your name and date (by typing <nowiki>--~~~~</nowiki>)
See also: [[Wikipedia:FAQ]], [[Wikipedia:Help]], [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers]]
== Moved discussion ==
Questions and answers, after a period of time of inactivity, will be moved to other relevant sections of the wikipedia (such as the FAQ pages), placed in the [[Wikipedia:Village pump archive]] (if it is of general interest), or deleted (if it has no long-term value).
*14 October
**Google links to Wikipedia articles --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**Articles about songs --> See [[Wikipedia:Copyright issues]]
**Erik Zachte's stats --> fixed
**Donation header--> [[Wikipedia:Donation header]]
**Afghanistan title --> See [[Talk:U.S. invasion of Afghanistan]]
**Problem uploading image--> Fixed.
**Link to Wikisource on the main page -->[[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**Japanese Ship Names--> [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ships)/Japanese]]
**Wikipedia:Cleanup is open for business -- [[Wikipedia talk:Cleanup]]
**Media files --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**photo overwriting --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**Suez Crisis review request -> [[Wikipedia:Peer review]]
**Technical Help --> [[User_talk:Rameez]]
**Broken link to Statistics --> fixed
**it's all Greek to me --> deleted, resolved
**Donation progress bar --> already at [[Wikipedia:Donation#Others topics to develop]].
**Broken image? --> deleted, resolved
**Someone complained --> deleted, resolved
**Getting offensive articles rewritten -> [[Talk:Homophobic hate speech]]
**Mail notification with dummy mail ID --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**A bug or something? --> Unresolved. [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archived]]
**Anon "updating cache" --> no longer anon, see [[User talk:Maveric149]]
**Copyright Q --> answered at [[User talk:SD6-Agent]]
**Blocked user? --> Blocks only last 24 hours
*16 October
**User:Mediator--> [[User talk:Mediator]]
**Login password--> fixed -->[[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**Scoring articles--> [[Wikipedia:Article scoring]]
**Was GrahamN blocked on Saturday? --> [[User talk:GrahamN]]
**Shortpages should be deleted --> [[Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy]]
**Neutral text --> [[Wikipedia:Peer review]]
**The title of Cardinal --> [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (cardinals)]]
*17 October
**User:Sex --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**Plagiarism or POV? --> [[Talk:Korean names for Korea]]
**Solid-fel stoves? --> deleted; no lasting value
**Poorly written page --> deleted; resolved
**Death of Jim Cairns --> deleted; resolved
**Bali bombing --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**2003 invasion of Iraq --> [[Wikipedia:Village pump/October 2003 archive 1|archive]]
**PLoS License --> [[Talk:Creative Commons License]]
**Wikis in Current Events --> [[Talk:Current events]]
**Votes for Deletion --> deleted; resolved
See the [[Wikipedia:Village pump archive|archive]] for older moved discussion links. For the most recent moved discussion, see [[Wikipedia:Village pump archive#October 2003 moved discussion]].
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==Logo==
Hrmm, we seem to be going through logos rather quickly. The current one needs transparency. [[User:Evercat|Evercat]] 23:27, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Who decides on these logo changes? I guess that the big contest and vote that we had a while ago was completely meaningless, since the results were discarded a few days later? [[User:Stevenj|Steven G. Johnson]] 00:10, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:It's been discussed on [http://meta.wikipedia.org meta]. I've not been paying much attention to it myself, but it's there. --[[User:Camembert|Camembert]]
: These are just variants of Paullusmagnus' winning concept. We are trying to optimize it in a way that pleases (almost) everyone. The latest version has the advantage that it is already internationalized, although I think it could use a touch of color. Nohat is working on it.[[User:Eloquence|—Eloquence]] 00:19, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)~
::Almost everyone? You mean the small subset of the original voters who are now second-guessing the ratified design? How about you leave the ratified design up while you bicker about alternatives, select an alternative, and then have another ''publicized'' vote on whether to switch to it? [[User:Stevenj|Steven G. Johnson]] 21:09, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: There should probably be a page (if there isn't one already) displaying all the different versions ''and'' their names of the logos used. At this time, I don't know how to refer to them. I made a comment on one version, and up comes a new version and changes the meaning of my comment. [[User:Dori|¬ Dori]] 01:14, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:: I created a page on meta giving the [[m:Logo history]] in hopefully a NPOV way (I am biased so someone strongly for the logo should probably debias it). [[User:Jrincayc|Jrincayc]] 15:29, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I'd like to point out a problem with the new logo. It displays poorly on my Mac using an older version of Netscape. It doesn't appear at all on my Mac using Internet Explorer 4.5. As a matter of fact, MSIE version 4.5 doesn't display PNG files at all. Transparency also seems to be a problem. This file should be viewable with all browsers. --[[User:Fernkes|Fernkes]] 21:53, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
:Netscape 4.x is more full of bugs than a compost heap, don't use it if you can help it! Internet Explorer 5.0 for Mac seems to deal with the logo ok, but IE for Mac has many problems; like Netscape 4 it cuts off long articles when editing and damages non-ASCII characters on wikis using unicode for internationalized text. Its not a high priority to support either of these browsers when they cause this much trouble; try Mozilla if possible. There's a MacOS 9 version of Mozilla 1.2 available for download at: http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.2/ --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 23:37, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
There seems to be a new vote happening at http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_logo_variants. It's not currently publicised on the Main Page, or at least not nearly so prominently as the previous votes, but it was foreshadowed at the time of those votes. And it seems to include departures from the original design that I (and I gather at least some others) consider to be sufficiently different to call them new logos, including the one currently being promoted (I guess that's a POV comment but I think it's needed) on the English Wikipedia. But I guess that's a matter of opinion, and I guess that's the place to express it, and I've done that. To do this properly you need to set up a meta account if you don't have one already. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 20:07, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Edits==
Just a reminder:
#Please use the '''M'''inor edit selection '''ONLY''' for spelling corrections, formatting, and minor rearranging of text. Many people have the ''Hide minor edits in recent changes'' feature '''ON''' in their settings.
#Please use the '''Summary''' function when posting non-minor edits. This makes '''all''' of our lives easier when we look at ''Recent changes'' and ''Page histories''. Thanks [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 00:28, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== This is kind of interesting ==
[[User:Stevertigo]] recently created [[Talk:User:Eloquence]], which I'm pretty sure was a mistake. What's interesting is that the "View article" link (not "View user page", mind you) does actually link to [[User:Eloquence]]. This means everybody has two talk pages (sort of), a real talk page, and a talk page in the main Talk namespace. (I, of course, have a third talk page, at [[Talk:Cyan]] ;-). -- [[User:Cyan|Cyan]] 02:11, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Yeesh.-[[User:Stevertigo|戴眩sv]] 02:35, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Would actually making use of this unintended (?) feature be deprecated? I could think of several possible ways to make use of it. And I don't mean me personally, but there might be a more general consensus for what the Talk:User:Foobar page could signify, if we really put our minds to it. BTW. does it give Eloquence the '''You have new messages''' indicator, when it has text that he has not read yet? -- [[User:Cimon avaro|Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]] 11:07, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
Similarly pages like [[Talk:Wikipedia:Namespace]]. - [[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 12:29, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:I did not get notification of messages left at [[Special:Undelete/Talk:User:Angela|Talk:User:Angela]] when someone was writing there by mistake. What possible uses do you see for it Jussi? [[User:Angela|Angela]] 17:39, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
::Very inchoate ideas, as usual, maybe we had best discuss it at [[Talk:Wikipedia:Namespace]]. -- [[User:Cimon avaro|Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]] 21:42, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
:::That discussion should be discussed at [[m:Talk:en:Talk:Wikipedia:Namespace]]. Why not use [[Talk:Wikipedia:namespace]] instead of [[Talk:Wikipedia:Namespace]], anyway? [[User:Cyp|Κσυπ ''Cyp'']] 10:58, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Logo==
Its too small (bitwise)-- it looks too choppy. Can we find a happy compromise (bettween the too big 50k and the too small (what it is now) maybe 25k?? Hint--try different background colors to test it for [[jaggies]].[[User:Stevertigo|戴眩sv]]
: ''Can we find a happy compromise?'' I very much doubt it. [[User:Cgs|CGS]] 14:33, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC).
:The jaggies are a necessary evil due to Internet Explorer's having a hard time dealing with alpha transparency in PNGs. If you know of a workaround for this that doesn't involve losing antialiased text edges (very bad!) or a slight 'halo' that looks fine on the intended background colors but ugly if you switch your browser to purple-on-black, please advise. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 21:28, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Thanks Brion-- I will bring it up with Nohat, and well have...well... a new (sub) contest for the best no-jaggy logo. ! ;) -[[User:Stevertigo|戴眩sv]]
==Was GrahamN blocked on Saturday?==
No he wasn't. See [[User talk:GrahamN]].
== Shortpages should be deleted ==
*[[User:Dgrant|dave]] thinks so.
*Rule 4 of the [[wikipedia:deletion policy|deletion policy]] states that you may.
*[[User:Jiang|Jiang]] is alleged to disagree.
*[[User:Marshman|Marshman]] recommends redirecting.
*[[User:Stevertigo|戴眩sv]] thinks [[User:Dgrant|dave]] is a troll.
*[[User:Angela|Angela]] disagrees.
*[[User:Dgrant|dave]] thinks the policy needs to clarified.
*[[User:Angela|Angela]] said the policy is clear, but some disagree with it.
*[[User:Dgrant|dave]] came to the conclusion that there is no conclusion
*And this is why [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] thinks we should have a [[meta:deletion management redesign]].
See [[Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy#Shortpages_should_be_deleted|Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy]] for the full discussion.
== Change User ID in credit for new article? ==
I just created the [[Norton Juster]] page, but didn't realize that I'd been switched to en2.wikipedia.org from en.wikipedia.org and therefore logged out. Credit for the page is given to my IP address, rather than me -- which is okay, but I'd rather get the appropriate blame and credit if possible. Can the originating page author be switched? -- [[User:Scarequotes|Scarequotes]] 18:20, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
:See my previous reply at [[Wikipedia_talk:How_to_log_in#Backdating_attribution_on_changes_before_I_registered|Backdating attribution]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 20:58, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
::I thought it might be a hassle. Thanks for the info -- I clarified on the Talk page. -- [[User:Scarequotes|Scarequotes]] 21:51, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
:::It isn't really that difficult. I think I will invent a policy for it, at [[Wikipedia:Changing attribution for an edit]] (or should that be "of an edit"?). -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 02:53, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
== The New Wikipedia Logo ==
I heard Wikipedia was having a contest for their new logo. Who won? I think the new logo is really cool.
:I agree - it's not the one I voted for, but I think the current revision looks pretty darn nice. Good job all! [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]] 21:22, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:: The current logo is the creation of [[User:Nohat]], based on the winning concept by [[User:Paullusmagnus]]. I also like it a lot myself, but we will continue to try to find ways to improve it, so if you have comments, head to [[m:logo feedback]].[[User:Eloquence|—Eloquence]] 02:50, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
== WikiProject: Popular Lastname ==
Hello! I would like to propose a new WikiProject: Popular Lastname. "Popular" in the sense that about 20 people of the lastname having an article in Wikipedia.
Anyone back me up?
[[User:Wshun|wshun]] 21:33, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Why don't we have simply a project about lastnames like where do they come from, what do they orignally mean and so forth. I don't think each lastname deserves to its own article but there should be some way to orginize such information? -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]]
:We already have [[list of people by name]]. But some popular lastnames will soon dominate the list, so I guess single them out should be a good idea. I personally prefer a separate wiki on lastnames but I don't think anyone will support it. -- [[User:Wshun|wshun]] 22:14, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Just set them up as disambiguation pages... 1/2 :-) They'll probably sniff out some links needing fixing. I've done a bit of that with Roman names, [[Valerius]] for instance. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 22:23, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Can't undelete==
A newly created article [[Bobbing for apples]] was edited by somebody else (Deb?) and more or less at the same time I (mistakenly) deleted it. I then went back to that page and undeleted it, received confirmation that it was undeleted, but now the article seems to be gone. What happened? [[User:Kosebamse|Kosebamse]] 21:35, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:It hasn't gone. It's there. Try [[Wikipedia:Clear your cache|clearing your cache]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 21:36, Oct 14, 2003 (UTC)
::OK, no prob then. Thanks and N/G/W. [[User:Kosebamse|Kosebamse]] 21:47, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Using GFDL materials with the GFDL as an invariant section? ==
I was thinking about including some material from some [[GNU]] manuals in several Wikipedia articles. While these materials are released under the [[GNU Free Documentation License]], they use the GFDL itself as an invariant section. Two things:
#Isn't the GFDL essentially an invariant section already? You need to include it with any copy of the text. Why is it necessary to include it as an invariant section?
#Can I post the material at all, and if so, do I need to include a note such as: ''This material requires the [[GNU Free Documentation License]] as an invariant section,'' or is that already implied?
Thank you, -- [[User:Mattworld|Mattworld]] 22:04, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Legally a puzzler, but the first question should be: which parts of GNU manuals are encyclopedic? All the bits I can think of are inappropriate for Wikipedia; we should be summarizing the manuals if anything, not dumping them in here verbatim. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 22:23, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::There was a history section in one of the manuals that would have fit perfectly in Wikipedia; however, I now plan to summarize it, so this isn't that big of an issue. I'm still slightly curious as to the answer, though. -- [[User:Mattworld|Mattworld]] 22:34, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Invariant sections aren't welcome in Wikipedia (though you're welcome to separately distribute a derivitive of a Wikipedia article that does include invariant sections). I'm mighty curious now about the docs... which are they? --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 23:37, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:::In this case though, I think it might not be a problem. You already have to distribute an invariant copy of the GFDL along with any GFDL-licensed material, so including the GFDL itself as an invariant section isn't actually adding any new restrictions--it's just being redundant and restating the same restriction in a different way. --[[User:Delirium|Delirium]] 01:44, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
::::A GFDL text can be redistributed under a later version of the GFDL. If you put a copy of the license in an invariant section, that that older version will need to be distributed with the text even if you're putting it out under a later version. Can somebody please point out the actual texts under discussion so more than speculation can take place here? --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 00:50, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::::At the GNU site ''[http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl-howto.html When should a section be invariant?]'' it states that the GFDL is an invariant section [see § 4(H)]. If it is an earlier version of the GFDL that says it can also be released under a later version of the GFDL (i.e. originally ver. 1.1 released under ver. 1.2) then can not the older version be replaced by the newer version as the newer version is already an invariant section in a GFDL work? If it is only released ''only'' under ver. 1.1 of the GFDL (does not specifically state that it may be released under a later version) then would that make it incompatible with the GFDL here which is of a "later version" variety? Most of the changes in the later version seems to be just clarifications of the earlier version; is there any reference some one can point to that states how the two versions are incompatible and not just clarifications that have the same legal import? The only two I can find are (1) the five principal author listing (all the authors must be listed in 1.1; this is clearly not problem with Wikipedia as the history pages list all the authors of a particular GFDL work) and (2) 1.2. has the optional warranty disclaimers added so 1.1 is just 1.2 without any disclaimers in that regard; so maybe there is backward compatibility if no warranty disclaimers are used. In the license it is stated that if a use of the license invokes the language "any later version" that a user can decide which version to re-release the material under; as the GFDL is already an invariant section; this indicates that you can release 1.1 under 1.2 even if 1.1 is listed separately as an invariant section because you cannot take away any of the rights granted in the GFDL under § 9 (i.e. the right to use a later version cannot be revoked). BTW if no version number is listed the GFDL (§ 10) states any version can be used; so there is an argument that by making the GFDL an invariant section it then invokes any version of the GFDL even if the version used to release the document does not state that any version can be used. Thus, as a rule, a general statement that the "GNU Free Documentation License" is an invariant section (without reference to the version number) would appear to imply that one can use any version of the license — in such a case it does not appear necessary to provide a copy of the predecessor license as a separate invariant section. [[User:Alex756|— Alex756]] 05:59, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Streets of San Francisco ==
So how does "Streets of San Francisco" not represent the city of San Francisco?
:Is this a riddle? What are you referring to? [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]]
::I think this user had some additions to the [[San Francisco]] article nixed by mav. OP, if you have things like this about specific articles to discuss, do it on the article's Talk: page. You can get there from the "Discuss this page" link found on every article. :-) —[[User:Frecklefoot|Frecklefoot]] 01:27, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:::It doesn't look like the addition was nixed... It is still there. [[User:Dgrant|dave]] 02:04, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::::Right-o. All I did was change the bizarre [[Streets of San Francisco, The]] to [[Streets of San Francisco]]. Maybe it should be [[The Streets of San Francisco]]... Oh well. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 05:06, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== WikiProject: Space Missions ==
After the successful launch of [[Shenzhou 5]], and looking at similar pages ([[Mercury 3]]) for reference when helping to write/update/edit the article, it got me thinking (particularly considering the bottom of [[Mercury 3]]) that there perhaps should be a WikiProject standardizing the appearance of space mission entries. I'm not sure whether it would apply to both crewed and uncrewed missions, or just crewed missions, but I figured it might be a good idea to at least standardize on a footer to help navigate through the various missions, much like rulers of countries (e.g. [[George Washington]] and [[Elizabeth II]]) have a navigation system. It wouldn't hurt to standardize on a method of describing the ___location/time of launch, ___location/time of landing, crew names, and mission badges (if applicable). Anyone else agree? I'll lay out the template if people say it's a good idea. -- [[User:Pipian|Pipian]] 02:58, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Go for it. [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 03:01, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::There's a "de facto" scheme I've been trying to implement - look at the early Soviet pages - Vostok, Voshkod, Soyuz 1-12. But yes, I agree standardisation would be nice :) [[user:rlandmann|rlandmann]]
:::Please check out [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Space Missions]] then while I'm working on solidifying a possible standard. I'll probably adopt most of your existing one. -- [[User:Pipian|Pipian]]
::::Please also, set up a standard for what we call the crewmembers. Someone removed astronaut and changed it to taikonaut. Someone else removed the Chinese (Yuhangyuan) because they said "it looks ugly". We need a standard. [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]] 03:53, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::::Alright. I might just make a whole groups of Space WikiProjects.... -- [[User:Pipian|Pipian]]
:::Just commenting that the "buff" coloured background on the tables was already kinda standard from many of the Shuttle missions - might be worth reviewing those pages as well before settling on the final version of the template... not really an issue, of course! [[user:rlandmann|rlandmann]]
::Quite some time ago I started with adding a factsheet to some of the space mission (I did e.g. [[STS-9]]), but never came to more then just a few when the next project absorbed me. As that was when I was new to Wikipedia I didn't know about the Wikiprojects yet, and then didn't find the time to return to the space mission except to add minor details sometimes. So it's a good idea to revive this project, and at first unify those space missions already existing. [[User:Ahoerstemeier|andy]] 11:59, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==[[wikipedia:ISBN|ISBN]] Booksource Links==
When you click an ISBN link, it takes you to a page offering links to buy that book at all major book sellers. Why isn't the link set up so that Wikipedia gets 10% or whatever. In my experience, Amazon will willingly do this. This could prove very profitable.
:This was suggested a while ago on list. We may in fact make revenue from this now. I dont know. There are some potential conflicts (like creating an captialist incentive for click-adding). I dunno. Sign your name, next time, BTW.[[User:Stevertigo|戴眩sv]] 03:51, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::I didn't follow the previous discussion (is it archived somewhere?) but it seems to me that it could work very well now that Wikimedia is up and running. Is there any reason we shouldn't leave it to the booksellers to decide what they will pay, and just report in a low-key way what they each decide? That could get a nice auction going! Perhaps the lower-margin booksellers can't afford to pay as much as others, so we leave it to the public to decide where in the spectra of price, service and Wikipedia support their priorities lie. Yes, it's [[capitalism]], in fact I think it might even be [[monetarism]] as well. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 06:50, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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==Photo overwriting==
This section was moved to the archives with some unfinished work. Hence pasting it again :
It'll be helpful if the following line is included in [[Special:Upload]] page, beginning of the 2nd para. "If a file with the name you are specifying already exists on Wikipedia it'll get replaced without warning. So unless you deliberately wish to overwrite a file, it'll be a good idea to first check if such a file exists."
Above warning line has not yet been added in the [[Special:Upload]] page. Can someone with permissions to edit Special pages add it. Jay 19:49, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Good things come to those who nag. I'll shortly be putting this into the four different places necessary to make an immediate but permanent change to MediaWiki. I changed the wording a bit: "If a file with the name you are specifying already exists on Wikipedia, it'll be replaced without warning. So unless you mean to update a file, it's a good idea to first check if such a file exists." "Get" is such an ugly word. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 09:35, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
== A public announcement for transparency sake. No need for comments. ==
A while back I created a user account [[User:Sockpuppet|Sockpuppet]] purely for demonstration purposes. (Wanted to show this wonderful virtual place to my direct female antecedant, and not freak her out with all the sysop functions... she wasn't really interested.)
In any case I chose a (I think) transparently descriptive username and posted on the user and talkpages the following (in part):
::"I am a sockpuppet username for a sysop ([[User:Cimon avaro|Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick]]) who wants a nonsysop username to use when demonstrating the system. There should be very few edits made outside the sandbox by this user (except perhaps editing from a public terminal when away from home)."
I also later logged in as Cimon Avaro and confirmed that it was I who had created the account, so that everything would be aboveboard.
It has been a while and I haven't had cause to use it since, nor do I expect to use it except in extremely rare and special circumstances. But I have forgotten, whether I made a public announcement of the fact at the time, so this cannot hurt. I have Read The Fine Manual, and know that there is nothing wrong with what I did per se, but I do want to come "clean" anyway, in light of recent events.
Respectfully,
:[[User:Cimon avaro|Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]] 08:35, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
:Well since I'm paranoid, I've created a whole bunch of user accounts and variations of my name just to make it more difficult for people to pretend they are me. But I haven't used the accounts for anything other than that. I do edit anonymously sometimes for various reasons (public computer, too lazy, need to see what anons see, etc). --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 08:42, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: I sometimes make edits from a public computer. If they are substantial, I put "tarquin" in the comment line. -- [[User:Tarquin|Tarquin]] 08:48, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::I'm too paranoid for that (don't want to expose any IP I use except to people I know I can trust). --mav
== Nationmaster ==
What's the relationship between this website and that of www.nationmaster.com? I thought that I'd stumbled onto a case of blatant plagarism of wikipedia material on [http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sydney-Opera-House this page] until I saw the copyright note at the bottom. [[User:Arno|Arno]]
: Found another one also showing the Sydney Opera House article! Its [http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Sydney_Opera_House.html this one from www.4reference.net].
::See [[Wikipedia:Sites that use Wikipedia for content]]. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 10:02, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
Thanks. I hadn't known about this at all!
== stroud new south wales australia ==
At stroud gloucestershire we have a link with the stroud in the usa and in australia. Ive visited stroud NSW and it is an interesting historic town dating to the early development by europeans. can you add more information about the town? they have an active history society and get a lot of visitors to the area.
: You seem to know quite a bit on the subject. Why don't you do it? [[User:Cgs|CGS]] 14:15, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC).
: See also: [[Why Aren't These Pages Copyedited]]? and [[wikipedia:requested articles]]. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 21:04, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== External Links? ==
Does anyone have any opinion they can reason of excluding an extremely, I think, valuable source of information to [[AMD64]]?
The link is:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_4699_7980%5E875%5E4622,00.html
and provides free IA-64 documentation in CDROM, bounded book or download format. The books they supply you with are instructions for how to code with AMD64. It's a rather large 4 book reference library.
So the question I guess is, is it appropriate to allow wikipedia to act as a portal to other places of information kind of like dmoz but much more specific? I think if the links are highly tailored like this one then yes, but what do you think? --[[User:Dtgm|Dtgm]] 17:13, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:I don't think there's a problem with that as long as it pertains to the article in question; some articles already have plenty of links. [[User:Evil saltine|Evil saltine]] 16:01, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Dtgm, is your question like "Is it appropriate to have external links in articles ?" [[User:Jay|Jay]] 16:18, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Latin Wikipedia==
Is it possible to move pages on the Latin wikipedia, like it is here? Or delete a page even? I created "Imperatorii Romani" but it should be "Imperatores Romani" (I should probably learn the language before I start making pages in it :)). [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 16:26, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: It looks like it's on the old software, so maybe that's why you cannot. [[User:Dori|¬ Dori]] 16:44, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
You need a password from Jimbo to be able to delete a page on the old software Wikipedias and until they're moved to phase 3, the only way to move a page is by copy and paste. If it needs to be moved, I would recommend making the old page a redirect to the one you move the content to and stating the title of the original page in your edit summary when you create the new one. [[User:Angela|Angela]]
:Thanks, that's what I've done. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 17:07, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:::[[UseModWiki]] does not use a database backend but rather its own file format to store pages. However, someone with admin access should be able to move pages using the [http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?action=editlinks editlinks] feature of the software (it allows moving and deleting pages as well as mass-replacing links).
:::The "proprietary" file format used by UseMod is the main reason it's taking forever to upgrade the wikis -- converting this stuff is really tricky.[[User:Eloquence|—Eloquence]] 21:52, Oct 15, 2003 (UTC)
::::Actually, it's pretty easy to read (particularly as the code that reads it in UseModWiki is GPL!) The holdup is in automating conversion of an entire wiki to our format and features: renaming pages to deal with changes in case sensitivity, fixing subpage link syntax that doesn't work, renaming talk pages and removing their redundant links; importing images; fixing up other syntax bits that have changed. I've made a quickie version of the conversion script that skips all this (requiring humans to do it manually), which should be suitable for small wikis but requires a lot of manual labor for larger ones.
::::As soon as I've got the link table rebuild script working again I'll offer upgrading to any wiki that is willing to do the work manually. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 22:42, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Edit count?==
I always hear people mentioning the count of how many edits a user's done -- where can this be found? --[[User:Morven|Morven]] 00:23, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:For the more active contributors, the number often comes from [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians by number of edits]]. For a user who's not on the list, or for an up-to-date count, you can use the user contributions page, by hand-editing the URL. If you click on "user contributions", then "next 50", a URL appears with offset=50 and limit=50. I think most people just set offset to 0 and limit to some huge number, then count the lines using a text editor. Alternatively you could adjust offset until you find the end. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 00:39, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
::The offset doesn't work right. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]]
:::Are you saying offset=0 limit=5000 would or would not list every edit by a user with less than 5000 total edits? --[[User:Morven|Morven]] 00:55, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::::That would. But offset=4999 limit=1 would not show someone's 5000th latest edit. Only offset=0 works properly. --[[User:64.163.244.155|64.163.244.155]] 01:30, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: You have 598 edits. I copied the content of [http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=Morven&limit=9999999&offset=0] and paste it into a word processor and convert bullets to list-number. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 00:59, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: For the *nix inclined: curl 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Contributions&target=username&limit=99999&offset=0' | grep -c '<li>'
:Don't forget to replace "username" with your own username. [[User:Ed Cormany|Ed Cormany]] 00:14, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==en2 doesn't have logins==
I've been mucking about a fair bit tonight, and this was the first time I got forwarded to en2... odd, given how many articles I visited. On en2, I'm listed as not logged in... but login redirects to en. I realize this is temporary, but might it not be better to have login not redirect, and just log in twice? -- [[User:Jake Nelson|Jake]] 05:11, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: Correction. I apparently wasn't redirected to it, the link specified en2 explicitly. This may affect things. -- [[User:Jake Nelson|Jake]] 05:13, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Logging out very often==
What is the session timeout period for the en2 server ? Looks like I need to login every 5-10 minutes even if I'm working on the page and have not left it idle. By the time I have made edits and its time to save the page, I notice that I've been logged out again. Session timeout was never a problem with the other server. Is this an intended functionality to handle server traffic ? How do frequent timeouts help in this case ? [[User:Jay|Jay]] 07:58, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:You can't log in to en2, it's just a redirect to en. So if you log in, then use the back button to go back to the article you were editing in en2, you won't be logged in. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 10:06, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
::Sorry, it was a typo. It's "en" and not "en2". [[User:Jay|Jay]] 10:54, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Try checking the box that says something like "remember my password". Then, using a cookie, you stay logged in indefinitely. [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 01:18, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:::Thanx LDan, that was it! It works fine now. [[User:Jay|Jay]] 09:51, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Should go on articles requested, but don't remember the exact phrase... ==
In brief: anybody who knows the story to the point of titleing it properly, please start an article on the USENET historical event of the one autumn student rush that did not end, because those rushing in were not students any more... I feel we are heading towards an unending slashdot effect. Arhechgm, Was It Ythe "Unending September", "The September That Did Not End", "The September Without End", (August?, different phrasing?), Anywhay thisi is an important subject whe havent kovered. If somevody knobs the corect subject, I weill feeeel free to elaborate on the historical detail... -- [[User:Cimon avaro|Jussi-Ville Heiskanen]] 08:46, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
*"Eternal September" or "September That Never Ended". See the Jargon File: [http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/S/September-that-never-ended.html] -- [[User:Jake Nelson|Jake]] 09:24, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Timeline for New Server/Status ==
The entries at the top of this page regarding what is happening on the new server are very useful, but would have more meaning if a date was added to each entry. The phrase "real soon" means nothing without a reference date. --[[User:Fernkes|Fernkes]] 12:46, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
==Logo==
Uuurgh! What's happened to the colours and the logo on the Main Page?! I've been away for a long time!
:That's what happens if you go away. You can still give your [http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/logo_feedback feedback] on the new logo and vote for your favorite [[m:Final logo variants|variant]].
== The title of Cardinal ==
Firstname Cardinal Lastname v. Cardinal Firstname Lastname.
Discussion too long - moved to [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (cardinals)]]
== Disclaimers after quotes? ==
[[Ed Poor]] Recently added after a quote on the [[SEPP]] article:
"Note that Grist's view that there is a "scientific consensus" is neither endorsed nor disputed by Wikipedia."
I dislike this, because (a) quotes are quotes, and are always neither endorsed nor not, and (b) if it becomes common practice to add such disclaimers to quotes you don't like, the wiki will become littered with such disclaimers. Or is it already? I don't see anything under policy about this. Comments? ([[User:William M. Connolley|William M. Connolley]] 20:08, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)).
:I think we have no business editorialising like that, otherwise we'll have caveats all over Wikipedia. Quotes either stand or fall on their own merits. -- [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 20:58, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Agreed. Same as with the articles on religious topics. If we made a note of every disagreement there would be chaos. [[User:DJ Clayworth|DJ Clayworth]] 21:03, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: See also [[Wikipedia:Avoid self-references]].[[User:Eloquence|—Eloquence]] 23:29, Oct 16, 2003 (UTC)
:Agreed. It's the line between being neutral and being neutered. -- [[User:Jake Nelson|Jake]] 23:43, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Love it, Jake! It's a very fine line to walk between NPOV (which is an article of faith around here) and ''no'' point of view (which leads to just plain boring articles). I'm fascinated that Wikipedia works at all, but I think we've shown it does. And I have the feeling we ain't seen nothin' yet. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 00:22, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
This article - [[Palm tree]] - contains a different kind of disclaimer.
Also is it appropriate to mention the source of the article in the body of the article itself ? Or should that be put in the Talk pages ? [[User:Jay|Jay]] 13:22, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Mirror Sites==
Hi all. Not sure where to ask this question, so I am asking it here. How can one become a Wikipedia mirror site? If the information is Public Domain or GPL or the project is Open Source, how can interested parties get access to the articles for the purpose of setting up a mirror site or setting up their own local Wikipedia site for faster access, development, contributions, etc? -[[User:K1|Keyvan]] 22:52, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Backup dumps of the databases every few days: http://download.wikipedia.org/ (GFDL)
:The wiki software: http://wikipedia.sourceforge.net/ (GPL)
:There is not (yet) an organized system for whole-site mirrors. If you have suggestions for how to go about this, please join the developers' mailing list: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
:If you'd just like to see announcements and get help with setting up a copy of the software, please join the MediaWiki mailing list: http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/mediawiki-l
:--[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 23:51, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== paging quality control ==
I visited [[Samothrace]], and there I read that "The island is a kaza of the Lemnos sanjak." These were divisions of the Ottoman Empire, to which Lemnos and Samothrace have not belonged since 1912. This information is NINETY years out of date. Doesn't anyone check that material lifted from the 1911 Britannica is brought up to date? [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:32, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:[[Wikipedia:Why Aren't These Pages Copyedited]] -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 01:40, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
:Yes yes I understand that, and I will write a new Samothrace article tonight. But this is not just a copy-editing issue. Wikipedia ''encourages'' people to lift text from the 1911 EB. Surely we should say that people who do so have a duty to check its content? [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]]
::Yes, according to our [[Wikipedia:1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica|lifting stuff from Britannica policy]], editors have a duty to check the facts. Sometimes editors don't follow policy, so in that case you can clean up after them, and optionally whinge on their talk page, if they have one, which they don't in this case. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 01:48, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
:::OK I have left a note at [[Wikipedia talk:1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica]] but it doesn't get used very often. Can I access a [[List of articles based on the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica]]? [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]]
Use [[Special:Whatlinkshere/1911_Encyclopaedia_Britannica]]. Most of the Britannica articles link to that article. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 02:11, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
::Heh, if I did everything that was part of my duty here, I'd be working at this 80 hours/week and still be behind. :-) People should do as much as they're able, which may not include the extensive fact-checking that some 1911EB lifts require. I'm not as enthusiastic about the lifts as I used to be; the only articles that are useful as-is are the ones on long-dead European personages, for the rest it's been less work to write anew than to fix up. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 02:14, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Adam Bishop tells me: ''"There are tons of articles like that...mostly the populations still reflect 1911 numbers, or they don't reflect that something has radically changed because of World War I. Sometimes there are even articles about people who were still alive in 1911. There used to be a Georges Clemenceau article that had minutiae about his political life in the 1890s or whatever, but of course nothing about World War I. I also notice that there are many articles about Greek topics that originally had Greek text in them, which has become unintelligible through scanning. Unfortunately I don't think you can get people to stop copying text from there, since it's such an easy/lazy way out :)" ''
::This suggests to me that the EB is more trouble than its worth. What is the point of an encyclopaedia which is ''deliberately'' filling its pages full of stuff which it knows to be incorrect? We would be much better to admit that we don't have an article on these subjects and encourage people to write them rather than delude ourselves with all this '''padding'''. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]]
:::Better get to work and stop hanging around at the pump then! :-) But seriously, most of the ill-advised imports were done a long time ago, and you'll find few if any objections to a program of gutting and replacing. Ironically, 1911EB has the most detailed info about the now-forgotten colony of [[German New Guinea]] that I can find online, because it was published only a few years before the colony was extinguished. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 03:18, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::::By the way, another problem with those articles is that they cite sources from the 19th century, which would be pretty useless now. (A new one with both extremely old sources and incomprehensibly scanned Greek is [[Longinus]]...people are still adding these articles!) [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 21:23, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:::::I think all historical and economic facts should be checked and double-checked if you are citing from the 1911 EB, in case public and learned opinion has changed about the periods prior to 1909-1911, and new facts have emerged since the original publication. Geographical facts should be ok normally. [[User:Dieter Simon|Dieter Simon]] 00:31, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Herbs and Spices Template ==
If anyone has a few seconds, I'd like you to check out my new WikiProject for Herbs and Spices. I'd like to make a consistent template for Herb and Spice articles. This [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Herbs and Spices]] aims primarily to provide a consistent article structure for herbs and spices articles so that Wikipedia can become the true online spice bible, since most web sources out there are very scattered and there is no one true free source...many of them say different things depending upon the nationality and experience of the author, and other factors. Eventually this comprehensive information could all move over to the Wikibook:Cookbook. The template is available here: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Herbs and Spices/Template]] and I'd appreciate anyone's improvements to it...I'm sure everyone knows about spices, if you were looking up a spice, what would want to find out about it?
The reason I am asking is that I'd like to get started on this soon, so I want to make sure I didn't forget any key things in the template. [[User:Dgrant|dave]] 03:46, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Sounds and looks brilliant, I had a quick look. Perhaps a quick-reference table at the top right, similar to the taxbox in [[evolutionary tree]] articles, or the similar tables in [[list of dog breeds|dog breed articles]] and [[periodic table|chemical elements]]? A photo of the source of the spice could be included at the top of this table. Looking forward to seeing the content, I may even be able to contribute a little. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 04:08, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== linking wikipedia pages ==
I have now become a user at the Simple English Wikpedia. How do I put a link at my User page [[User:Adam Carr]] to this SE article http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?History_Of_Australia ?
[[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 05:04, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Exactly like you have above. Interlanguage links (which appear at the top and bottom of the page can be written like <nowiki>[[simple:History_Of_Australia]]</nowiki> but if you want the link to appear in the body of the page, you have to use the full url. You can write it like <nowiki>[http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?History_Of_Australia History Of Australia]</nowiki> which will appear as [http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?History_Of_Australia History Of Australia]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 06:29, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
:Thanks Angela. I wd value your opinion on the article itself some time. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 06:47, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::See [http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki.cgi?Peer_Review Peer review] at Simple. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 07:00, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
:There is a simpler way to do this, although not in the cases mentioned. <nowiki>[[w:fr:Histoire|History in French]]</nowiki> results in an inline link to fr:Histoire, like this: [[w:fr:Histoire|History in French]]. However, it seems that simple: is not recognized as a language prefix for this trick, and it will not work on simple: as long as it is still on phase I software (but then, neither do 'normal' interlanguage links). [[User:Andre Engels|Andre Engels]] 07:31, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Wikipedia server offline ==
Is it just me, or does the wikipedia server go offline every afternoon in the Eastern Timezone? [[User:SD6-Agent|SD6-Agent]] 09:24, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:I'm not sure. I do know that the server goes offline a short while every hour at :34, this to clean it from a memory leak with unknown source. [[User:Andre Engels|Andre Engels]] 11:22, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:US east coast's afternoon is our peak access period, so that's where our limited server power is going to show up the worst as far as slow / no responses go. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 00:39, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Section Edit ==
Something's wrong with this function? When I used section edit and saved, only the section part left( whole article became only the section i edited), i've experienced that twice, i am wondering what's wrong? --[[User:Gboy|ILovEJPPitoC]] 11:08, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Did you get an [[Wikipedia:Edit conflicts|edit conflict]] on these occasions? [[User:Angela|Angela]] 17:29, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)
::I don't think so. But it seems to work on [[Opera]]. --[[User:Gboy|FallingInLoveWithPitoc]] 02:31, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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I'm not sure if if the [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)]] page is checked often (apparently it isn't), so I thought I'd post this here as well...I've been looking around for an answer to this, but the closest I can find is:
# Roman Emperors don't need the "of the Roman Empire" nor would Pericles be "of Athens" ? their names already indicate where they're from. The first line of the article can say when (and which empire) they ruled. Otherwise, we get stuck with Roman Emperor, Western R. E., Eastern R. E., Byzantine E., and (under the Carolingians) Roman Emperor (again).
That's fine for the Roman Emperors, but the [[Byzantine Emperors]] are kind of messily named. Some of them have "of the Byzantine Empire" or "of Byzantium" (the latter being especially odd), some of them have "Emperor XXX" (or Empress), and some of them have their family names as well. In this case, would the most common English name be the most common name used by Byzantinists? Most of these emperors don't come in normal English conversation :) Personally, I would refer to a lot of them by their nicknames or their family names, so "Alexius I Comnenus" rather than just [[Alexius I]], or "Constantine Monomachus" (or Con. IX Monomachus) rather than just [[Constantine IX]].
So, I'm not exactly sure ''what'' should be done about the naming of their articles, but ''something'' definitely needs to be done, as there is very little in the way of a standard for them at the moment. Any suggestions? [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 22:21, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Heh, Byzantine naming for Byzantines seems entirely appropriate! It has been worked over by various people in the past - talk pages and history might tell you some of the players. They're halfway between European royalty, for which "of X" is the accepted standard, and Romans, which don't do it, but lots of the names are have high ambiguity, so review all of them before starting to tinker and then finding out the status quo was that way for a reason. :-) [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 00:06, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::A lot of them wouldn't be ambiguous with any other world leader, of course...unless someone writes about the emperors of [[Trebizond]], but I fixed those links so they will say "X of Trebizond." So I suppose "Alexius I", etc, is fine according to naming conventions, it just feels like they should all have "X, Byzantine Emperor" or something, if some of them do. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 14:59, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
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== Highlighted map ==
Could anyone make a highlighted map for every country like that in article [[US]]? I think that would be helpful since I don't know the position of every country. --[[User:Gboy|FallingInLoveWithPitoc]] 02:31, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Article: Sheremetyevo International Airport ==
Why has the article ([[Sheremetyevo International Airport]] been "Protected"? I have information to add to it, and I cannot do so while the page is protected.
: I don't see it listed at [[Wikipedia:Protected page]], and the last edit was in August! So it must have been a mistake. I've unprotected it. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 04:06, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
----
== Website with tiny font for Wikipedia license ==
This website has almost unreadable font for Wikipedia license text:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Environment-of-Evolutionary-Adaptedness
--[[User:Astudent|Astudent]] 12:39, 2003 Oct 18 (UTC)
----
:It is still barely readable. It seems the whole site uses rather small fonts. -- [[User:TakuyaMurata|Taku]]
== Redirect inconsistency? Strangeness ==
If you go to [[Mainboard]] you get redirected to [[PC motherboard]]. However, the redirected page looks like an older version of the one you get going there directly (notice the picture and the temperature section!) How come?! Strange. When you click edit on the 'old' version, you get to edit the normal up to date version. Even stranger!
--[[User:129.67.17.72|129.67.17.72]] 13:26, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Have you tried [[Wikipedia:Clear your cache|clearing your cache]]? They look the same to me. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 13:29, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
I have tried that, even used another browser AND with lynx from a very remote different system. Still inconsistent! Perhaps a caching issue on the server side? It is definitely real.
--[[User:129.67.17.72|129.67.17.72]] 13:37, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
I have just checked out other redirected pages and they exhibit similar problems! For example [[MRI]] (as a redirect to) [[Magnetic resonance imaging]].
Last edits do not show up in redirected pages!
--[[User:129.67.17.72|129.67.17.72]] 13:46, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:It's something to do with users who are not [[Special:userlogin|logged in]] getting cached pages. They do look different if I log out. It has already been submitted to [http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=820907&group_id=34373&atid=411192 Sourceforge], where [[User:Tim Starling|Tim]] wrote "''The problem is that the HTML cache for redirects is not invalidated when the target page is updated. It's on my to do list.''" [[User:Angela|Angela]] 13:47, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
A previous discussion of the same problem archived [[Wikipedia:Village_pump/October_2003_archive_1|here]]. Read the section "Google links to Wikipedia articles". [[User:Jay|Jay]] 14:49, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== West Tiki ==
test.wikipedia.org seems to be the same as (en.)wikipedia.org at the moment... I'm even still logged in... Just curious what happened to it... [[User:Cyp|Κσυπ ''Cyp'']] 18:37, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Pronounciation guides==
Why are people putting in those pronounciation guides? They are unworkable in the content of wikipedia. Such guides work where there is (i) recognition of what they mean, (ii) a broad experience of usage of them, (iii) relevant context. Most people writing international english for a non-academic audience run a mile from these things because they are not widely used in much of the world and so in many cultures completely incomprehensible, and because they pre-suppose a clear shared standard of english, which in Wikipedia's case cannot be guaranteed because while for some users it is a first language, for many it is a second or other language that they are not wholly fluent in. The sensible approach in a cultural context where there isn't the culture, comprehension or experience of these guides is to avoid unduly complex pronounciation formulae and explain the pronounciation in basic english of the sort all readers everywhere can follow.
On [[Taoiseach]] we are told the word is pronounced /"ty: S'Vx/. Even with a link attached, to many people worldwide it might as well be written in aramaic for all the use it is to them. Previously, to recognise that many people don't have the practical experience of understanding complex pronounciation guides, they were simply told the office was pronounced ''tee-shoch'' (the ''och'' and is ''loch''). That version could be followed easily by many people. /"ty: S'Vx/ to many would appear to be complete gobbledigook. [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 19:40, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: I agree with you, but I think that it would be easier still if a pronunciation file was attached. Then it would be even more universal (except for the deaf). I don't know how many times I've wanted to know the correct (or accepted pronunciation of a program or project, especially in the UNIX/Linux/GNU world). [[User:Dori|Dori]] 19:59, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
:: Many months ago, when I wrote the article for [[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz]], I searched Wikipedia high and low for pronunciation guide standards. I was disappointed not to find any. Instead, I used the pronunciation guide from an American dictionary.
:: I don't know enough about lingiustics to proposal which pronunciation guide standards to utilize for wikipedia standards. But I feel such standards should exist, and should be listed.
::Pronunciation files can help, but they should not replace the written word. Such files without written symbols breaks the continuity of reading, and cannot be used by many users.
::A metapage called [[Wikipedia:Pronunciations]] (or something like that) should be created by people who know what their doing in the subject. I'd imagine it would look like http://www.m-w.com/aschart.htm in form, but not necessarily in content. [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 21:50, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::: The written pronunciation should stay. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but I meant we should add sound bytes/clips for words, phrases, etc. to accompany such written guides. Maybe this could be a whole new site accompanying Wictionary and Wikiquote or it could just bee sound files uploaded to the pedias themselves. [[User:Dori|Dori]] 22:02, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
::: For example, have a look at [[Albanian_language#Pronunciation guide]] and [[Common phrases in different languages#Albanian (Albanian)]] that I just added. [[User:Dori|Dori]] 23:34, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
== NUMBEROFARTICLES ==
Does the variable NUMBEROFARTICLES (used on the main page) include image description pages? I think it might, and it probably shouldn't. I don't know if this has been discussed elsewhere, so pardon the ignorace if that is the case. [[User:Dori|Dori]] 21:17, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
:Also, what about redirect pages? Pardon my possible ignorance as well :) [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 21:23, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
According to [[Wikipedia:Multilingual statistics]], the latest counting method (for en: anyway) is that an article = a page with at least one Wikification. But all redirects and some image description pages also have Wikifications too; they're probably excluded. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 21:33, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:The count (should) count only pages in ''article namespace'' that ''are not redirects'' and ''contain the character sequence "[[", indicating a wiki link''. Image description pages are not in article namespace, and are not counted. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 22:15, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Can I add a page about myself in the Wikipedia? ==
And I don't mean a user page...
I've wondered this since I discovered Wikipedia a week ago. (What a great place!)
Yes, I admit up front that this question sounds vain, so let's agree on that, shall we, and move to the question:
Can I place a NPOV biography about myself, my life and my achievements in the Wikipedia? Is it done? Is there anything to stop me (policy-wise, I mean)?
Thanks for making this such an addictive and ever-exciting place.
-- [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]]
:Are you just some random guy who likes to edit Wikipedia? Then no :) If you have the barest amount fame, you could attempt it, and thereby start months of discussion about whether or not you are famous ''enough''...but I don't know if it's worth the effort :) [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 22:21, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::Well, do I run into people in NYC who recognize me from my singing in the subway? Yes. Was I the subject of nationwide chat-room discussions when I rallied each evening for a month in Times Square on a live Web camera? Yes. Don't know if that's famous enough for you, but it might spur discussion, as you said. But my real question is, what's to stop me policy-wise? Thanks for your answer. -- [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]]
::Adam, I just researched you and discovered you're an administrator. Congratulations. So I think it's safe to say that your answer to me is borderline authoritative. (You can still answer me regarding policy, though). In closing I should say that, before you use your power to get women, first you use it to get 'respect,' THEN you can move to the women. :) -- [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]]
:::Ah, I don't know about authoritative, there are dozens of admins who do more admin-related things than I do :) There actually is a [[Wikipedia:Don't create articles about yourself]] policy, though. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]]
I would recommend that you read [[Wikipedia:Autobiography]], have a look at the case study of [[Daniel C. Boyer]] (assuming you have a week to spare to read it) and note that [[User:Jimbo Wales|Jimbo]] said on the mailing list "''it is a social faux pas to write about yourself''" [http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=wikien-l&m=105999934110753&w=2]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 22:49, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
There's nothing to stop you from creating an article about yourself, but there's also nothing to stop someone else from blanking, or deleting, or replacing your text with "Paul Klenk is a nobody." :-) So whatever you add has to be agreeable to the 8,000(?) other Wikipedia editors, and to date, nobody has been able to type fast enough to ensure survival of their material if even 10 other editors don't want it there. I have some accomplishments of my own, but somebody else will have to create the article about me; if not one of those thousands of editors thinks the article is needed, that's a pretty strong hint. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 22:53, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:Stan, if those 10,000 Google hits are about you - you probably do deserve an article. Although two people have said that about me and I definitely don't! [[User:Angela|Angela]] 23:32, Oct 18, 2003 (UTC)
::Heh, it's what comes of spending years with open source - take away all the source code online, the numbers are a little smaller! :-) [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 03:16, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
'''Thanks, all''' for your answers -- I think I know what I need and we can lay this question to rest. Kindest regards, [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]] 23:02, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:If anyone on here deserves an article, it's Jimbo. Has he affected 10,000 people? Hmmm... let me think... ;) But he's too modest to write one about himself. The main criterion used to determine whether or not you're allowed to write an article about yourself is how obnoxious you are. [[Albert Jacher]] and [[Daniel C. Boyer]] were obnoxious, so they got booted. [[Jim Duffy]] and [[Sheldon Rampton]] are kind, pleasant people, so they have articles. [[Florentin Smarandache]] was obnoxious but unfortunately very widely known so we had to include him. But he was the exception. So take my advice and act nice. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 05:29, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
==Wikipedian statistics==
Do we have quick available stats on wikipedia contributors? I know most sign on with user-nics but it would be useful if we knew (1) where wikipedia users are from? (eg, are most in the US? What proportion are from Europe, Canada, Asia, Australia & New Zealand, Africa?) (2) given that there is a high turnover of wikipedians as people are dragged away with other commitments, what is the average length of stay of a wikipedian? It might be an idea if someone could create a program whereby new users (and existing users to wikipedia who had not yet done so) were asked to fill out a confidential questionnaire, not asking names or such but things like gender, ethnic background, educational qualification, physical ___location, etc. The results of each ''individual'' questionnaire would ''not'' be kept or anything, just the data included in an overall wikipedia profile of itself, giving wiki a knowledge of who it appeals to and why, who uses it, etc? It could appear when someone sets up a user-name, explaining why the questionnaire is there and stressing how the information data, once clicked by the user would simply update the overall numbers database and would not exist as an individual record. [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 00:00, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:I suppose some of it could be gleaned from [[Wikipedia:Wikipedians]], although there must be many more people who haven't put their names there. [[User:Adam Bishop|Adam Bishop]] 00:08, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
::I wouldn't personally be prepared to quote statistics that were gathered in the way you describe. They'd be too unverifiable. (Hmmm, is that like being "too pregnant"? Well, I think you get the idea). Misleading figures can be worse than none. [[User:Andrewa|Andrewa]] 03:49, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
==Weird en2.wikipedia==
Can anyone explain to me the difference between: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece and http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Bavaria , same article on 2 different servers, but with different content (Otto_of_Bavaria redirects to Otto_of_Greece)????? Thanks. [[User:Olivier|olivier]] 00:23, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:See [[#Redirect_inconsistency?__Strangeness]] above. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 00:33, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
::oh, OK. Thanks! [[User:Olivier|olivier]] 01:34, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Archiving ==
I have seen that people archive their old messages (this is done for the pump too). Is there a reason for not using the history pages instead? Do the histories of pages get flushed after a while, do the URLs change, or is it simply a matter of preference? It seems a bit wasteful to do both. [[User:Dori|Dori]] 02:50, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
:Text archived to another page will be searchable, while text archived only in the edit history isn't. (Though I'd be surprised if this directly motivates much of it.) Stuff from the pump tends to get archived to pages more immediate to the discussed subject, which may make it easier for people to find the relevant information later, though it's likely better to refactor and summarize the results of the discussion rather than moving a multi-page thread/flame around from place to place. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 03:03, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Adding photos to articles ==
I need help adding a photo to an article. I've already uploaded it. I've read the related help sections, but cannot find a usable code to do the format I wish. What I want to do is add the picture to the top right corner of the page, with the article text flowing down and around it. Can someone help, please? [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]] 03:26, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: I don't really know, but there is a page called [[Wikipedia:Image markup]] that may help you. [[User:Dori|Dori]] 03:31, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
: I added the [[Ricky Jay]] picture you uploaded to the article. I learned how to do by example! [[User:Samw|Samw]] 03:34, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
'''Thanks''', Easter Bunny, <buck buck!> [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]] 03:39, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Wikipedia bedtime ==
It is late, and I'm getting tired, but a lot of people still seem to be up contributing. What time do we all go to bed? [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]] 03:55, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
* Wikipedians are alllll round the world, so in all different time zones. But some prefer to stay up and edit till the small hours of the morning! :) [[User:Dysprosia|Dysprosia]] 04:12, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:In that case, I'm going to bed. Goodnight, Dysprosia! Goodnight, Moon! Goodnight, Wiki article on the Grapefruit Spoon! [[User:Paul Klenk|Paul Klenk]] 04:17, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Standard formatting for languages ==
(Firstly, thanks Dysprosia for directing me to this page, and for your welcome...)
Being new here, it's quite possible that I've overlooked a simple answer to this question, but I haven't been able to find it. (Also, I perhaps shouldn't be thinking about this sort of thing until I learn my way around.) But I note that there seem to be standardized formats for pages on countries (eg [[Germany]]), some or all animals (eg the [[ostrich]]), and so forth. I was wondering if there was something similar planned for languages, showing things such as estimated number of speakers, language family, and so forth. I haven't noticed any, but I wouldn't know where to look. Is there somewhere where lists of such "standardized formats" can be found? Thanks. - [[User:Vardion|Vardion]] 03:59, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: Welcome, Vardion! Currently available "standardized formats" can be found at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject]] list. And we apparently don't have one yet, but there is a possibility at [[Xhosa language]]. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 04:05, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Non-gender specific language ==
I'm backing out of an emerging edit war in the [[Shenzhou spacecraft]] and a few related pages ([[shenzhou 5]], "[[manned space flight]]").
"Crewed spaceflight", whilst admittedly inelegant, is a perfectly valid, non-gender specific term for a spaceflight with a human or humans aboard. It's a term that NASA itself uses (along with human spaceflight).
Nevertheless, use of this term seems to have met with fierce resistance by Wikipedians who defend the use of the older "manned" term.
I would suggest that the deliberate choice of a gendered term where there is a non-gendered alternative readily available is inherently un-NPOV.
Like I said, I'm walking away from it, since it's very clear that the dinosaurs will have their day through sheer weight of numbers if nothing else.
--[[User:Rlandmann|Rlandmann]] 09:44, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
: Why can't "Manned spaceflight" include women? I think it's presumptuous to assume "manned spaceflight" does not include women, especially considering all the women who have gone into space (and I'm sure China will follow). Besides, "Crewed spaceflight" is <u>horribly inelegant</u> and silly. Calling people who disagree with you on this point "dinosaurs" is much much much worse. [[User:Daniel Quinlan|Daniel Quinlan]] 11:58, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
==Pages on Votes for Deletion should not be changed?==
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask, but it seems that some folks think that once a page has been listed on VfD, it should not be changed in an attempt to make it less offensive. Is this right?[[User:2toise|2toise]] 13:09, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:If someone can fix an article so that it no longer merits deletion, there's no way that can be a bad thing. If it's not broken anymore, then keep it! [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]] 14:32, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
== Another redirection problem ==
Why isn't this redirect working? [[Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion/copyvio]] -- [[User:Axlrosen|Axlrosen]] 16:12, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)
:It was a double redirect because the page had been moved twice. It's fixed now. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 16:21, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)
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