Wikipedia talk:No personal attacks/Death threats and Tony Curtis: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 10:54, 2 July 2007

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{{otherpeople|Tony Curtis}}

==Existing policy==

{{Infobox actor

Note, incidentially, that [[WP:BLOCK#Personal attacks that place users in danger]] already allows for indefinate blocks for threats, so this policy suggestion merely clarifies and regularises an existing policy. -- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter|Talk]] 20:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

| bgcolour =

| name = Tony Curtis

| image = Tony Curtis portrait.jpg

| imagesize = 200px

| caption = Tony Curtis

| birthname = Bernard Schwartz

| birthdate = {{birth date and age|1925|6|3}}

| ___location = [[New York]], [[New York]], [[United States|U.S.]]

| deathdate =

| deathplace =

| othername = Boinie

| height = 175 cm (5 foot 9 inches)

| spouses = [[Janet Leigh]]

| yearsactive = [[1949 in film|1949]]-[[Present (time)|Present]]

| homepage =

| notable role =

| academyawards =

| emmyawards =

| tonyawards =

}}

'''Tony Curtis''' (born '''Bernard Schwartz''', [[June 3]], [[1925]]) is an [[United States|American]] film actor. Famous for his thick black wavy hair, good looks, flashing long eyelashes and trademark New York accent, he was most popular during the late 1950s and early 1960s. He is best known for his light comic roles, especially his musician on the run from gangsters in ''[[Some Like It Hot]]'' (1959). He has also essayed a number of more serious dramatic roles over the years, such as his escaped convict in ''[[The Defiant Ones]]'' (1958), for which he received an [[Academy Award]] nomination. He has appeared in over 100 films since [[1949]], and has also made frequent television appearances.

*My interpretation of that part of BLOCK is that it's referring to stuff like "''I know Ms. X work at Krispy Kreme and I'm gonna call them up and tell them to fire her!''" and also "''Ms. X works at Krispy Kreme, the number is [phone] everybody call them up and tell them Ms. X is a jurk and keeps reverting my edits!!''" ...and that sort of thing. It doesn't seem to be about threats of murder and physical harm. [[Wikipedia:Harassment]] has a very brief passing mention of threats "of harm" but if very vague and is only a guideline anyway. My intention is to make this a "hard" policy along the lines of [[Wikipedia:No legal threats]], which is one of our best, least-ambiguous and best-enforced policies IMHO. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 21:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

==Actions forBiography admins==

Tony Curtis was born '''Bernard Schwartz''', the son of [[Jew]]ish [[Hungary|Hungarian]] (from the city of [[Mátészalka]], [[Szatmár]]) immigrants Emanuel and Helen Schwartz, in [[the Bronx]], [[New York]]. His father was a tailor who had left his home country to find a new life in the [[United States]]. In the early days the family lived in the back of his tailor's shop, parents in one corner and Tony and his brothers Julius and Robert in another. Curtis has said of his mother in interview ' When I was a child she beat me up and was very aggressive, antagonistic.' His mother was later diagnosed with schizophrenia, a mental illness which also affected his brother Robert and led to his institutionalization. When Curtis was 8, he and his younger brother Julius were placed in an orphanage for one month because their parents could not afford to feed them. There were more hard times to come. When Curtis was 13, Julius was hit by a truck and died. It fell to Tony to identify the body. He has said that he still keeps his brother's cap and school books because that's all that's left of him. With the realities of real life all too harsh, a young Curtis sought refuge in the cinema.

We need, I think, a "how admins should respond to reports of death threats" section, which I'd suggest would be something like:

* check if the report is accurate

* block the user

** if it's a user account, block indefinately. Use the block reason '''TBD''' and leave the '''TBD''' message on the user's talk page

** if it's an IP, block for an appropriate time (as specified in [[Wikipedia:Blocking policy#Guide to blocking times]]). Even though a death threat is a serious matter, it's pointless to block a proxy or AOL address for a lengthy period. Use the block reason '''TBD''' and leave the '''TBD''' message on the user's talk page

* leave a note on [[WP:AN/I]] (''should this have a note saying "your block is in effect a preemptory community ban, so it's necessary that the community review your decision" ?'')

* inform Jimbo and the Arbcom in accordance with [[WP:BLOCK#Personal attacks that place users in danger]]

* if a specific person was the subject of the threat inform that person of the block

'When I was a child, I used to go to the movies and became enthralled by all the fencing, horseback riding, kissing the girls. I said to myself "Why can't I do that?"

I think this is necessary because:

* most people (myself included, until right now) don't know about the email jimbo bit

* we don't want people leaving ban summaries that read "WP:DEATH" or something, which itself could be misconstrued as a threat

* the block message they leave on the user's talk page should be link to this policy page

* anons already get vexed when they run across a vandalism warning or block message left for the previous incumbent; a badly worded "you've been blocked for death threats" message is going to give some apoplexy.

-- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter|Talk]] 20:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Between [[1942]] and [[1945]] Curtis served in the [[U.S. Navy]] aboard the submarine tender, the USS PROTEUS. He witnessed the Japanese surrender in Tokyo Bay in September 1945, from a vantage point of 300 yards away.<ref>http://tendertale.com/ttiii/ttiii1.html</ref> After his service in the Navy, the young Curtis studied acting alongside [[Elaine Stritch]], [[Walter Matthau]] and [[Rod Steiger]]. To use his own words, he got into the movies because he was 'the handsomest of the boys.' Arriving in Hollywood in [[1948]] aged 23 he was put under contract to [[Universal Pictures]] and had his name changed to Tony Curtis. The studio sent him to fencing and riding lessons, but Curtis admits he was only interested in girls and money.

==Suggested Addition to Protocol==

Originally seen as just another pretty boy, he nonetheless proved he had great acting talent with many great performances in outstanding films such as the role of the scheming press agent Sidney Falco in ''[[Sweet Smell of Success]]'', along with [[Burt Lancaster]], and an [[Academy Awards|Oscar]]-nominated performance as a bigoted escaped convict chained to [[Sidney Poitier]] in ''[[The Defiant Ones]]''.

I would recommend that if the ___location of the person making a death threat is identifiable (via IP information), law enforcement in that area be contacted. Making death threats is, in and of itself, illegal in most jurisdictions, and (IIRC) a felony in some. It would seem to me that due diligence on our part would include acting to prevent possible danger to the subject of the threat. [[User:Justin Eiler|Justin Eiler]] 17:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Tony Curtis was so popular as a screen hunk during the 1950s that [[Elvis Presley]]<ref>[http://www.elvispresleynews.com/Elvis-Hairstyle.html Elvis Presley Elvis Presley News]</ref> copied his ducktail (DA) hairstyle after seeing it on screen.

:Most law enforcement won't take action on "if you revert me again I'll kill you." [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 17:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

::You'd be surprised, they take death threats very seriously these days. As noted, it's a felony. Whether it happens online, on the phone, or by mail, it's still a felony. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 18:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Curtis has also appeared frequently on television; he co-starred with [[Roger Moore]] in the [[television program|TV series]] ''[[The Persuaders!]]''. He later starred in ''[[McCoy (TV series)|McCoy]]'' and ''[[Vega$]]''. He made his screen debut, uncredited, in ''[[Criss Cross (1949 film)|Criss Cross]]'' playing a [[rhumba]] dancer. He also provided the voice of "Stony Curtis" as a guest star on ''[[The Flintstones]]''.

:Reporting to law enforcement is already there in the policy in the section on "''What to do...''" It's the victim's responsibility to report the matter. WP will cooperate but can't report it themselves. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 18:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

All his life, Curtis has enjoyed painting, and since the early 1980s, has had a second career as a [[painter]]. His work can command more than £25000 a canvas now and it is his career in paint that he now focuses rather than movies. 'I still make movies but I'm not that interested any more. I paint all the time.' In [[2007]] his painting ''The Red Table'' will be on display in the [[Metropolitan Museum]] in [[Manhattan]].

== Unneeded and badly worded ==

Curtis has spoken of his disappointment in never being awarded an [[Academy Award|Oscar]] 'I've never felt that my profession has recognized me for my work.' In March [[2006]], Curtis received the Sony Ericsson Empire Lifetime Achievement Award. He has a star on the [[Hollywood Walk of Fame]] and received [[France]]'s honor, the [[Ordre des Arts et des Lettres|Order of Arts and Letters]], in [[1995]].

We don't need another policy for this. Threats are already prohibited. However, if we do use this, the current wording is just awful. It takes death threats way too seriously, in that it considers threatened people to be in actual risk. "Nobody should have to die just because they chose to participate in Wikipedia." Nobody's going to die because someone threatened them on the internet. The difference between this and the existing policy seems to be that these threats ''don't'' actually place the person in danger, they just threaten danger. If I say "I want to kill Jimbo" Jimbo isn't suddenly in mortal danger. It shouldn't be acceptable to tell people I'll kill them, but the reason for preventing them is not that they actually are dangerous, but that they're horrible breaches of [[WP:CIVIL|civility]]. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 22:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

:To simplify, making of threats is independent of the actual level of danger and the wording of this policy should recognize that. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 22:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

== Relationships ==

*A few rebuttals: ("''Threats are already prohibited.''") In practice, yes they are. But I couldn't find a policy page that actually explicitly stated so, and certainly not that they are a bannable offence. ("''It takes death threats way too seriously''") Yes, because it ''is'' serious. Your outher objections are mostly already covered in the objectons section of the page: There ''have'' been cases of violence and even murder as a result of Internet conflicts, so the danger is far from imaginary. And besides, like the proposal states, the fear and worry caused by such threats is a large part of the damage they do, even if they're rarely carried out. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Tony Curtis has been married six times. His first (and most famous) wife was the actress [[Janet Leigh]] (1927–2004), to whom he was married for 11 years, and with whom he fathered actresses [[Jamie Lee Curtis]] and [[Kelly Curtis]]. He said of their relationship, "For a while, we were Hollywood's golden couple. I was very dedicated and devoted to Janet. I was on top of my trade, but in her eyes that goldenness had started to wear off. I realised that whatever I was, I wasn't enough for Janet. That hurt me a lot and broke my heart."

*Oh, and another reason to take death threats seriously is because they're highly illegal in the US and elsewhere... a felony offence, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying we need to ring up the FBI and Scotland Yard every time somebody says they'll kick so-and-so's butt or whatever, but compared to our nice tough stance on copyvios, our current policy on death threats is extremely soft. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

::But neither making a threatening statement nor banning someone from wikipedia changes the amount of danger that exists. That's not addressed in the piece. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 22:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

:::Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean. Could you explain it differently? If you mean that a threat is not the same as a physical attack, that's obviously true. And the vast majority of threats are just threats, that's also true. But the point of a threat is not necessarily to let people know they're about to be killed, but to cause them fear and worry even if the actual threat will not be carried out. To put it in off-wiki terms, let's say Mr. X calls 100 phone numbers at random. When somebody picks up, he says that he's going to come kill them, then hangs up. Mr X has no intention of killing any of them, he didn't even know who they were. But by threatening them and causing them worry and distress, he's still done a very very bad thing (and a thing which would earn him hard prison time if he was caught at it, too). [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

::::But it doesn't mean they're about to die, and so phrasing that implies anyone who receives a death threat is in actual danger is inappropriate. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 23:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

He has also been married to:

:::::This is why I'd advocate greatly limiting the references to actual death. We're not working up this policy because we want to save lives; someone who would commit WP-related murder is just as likely not to say anything about it first. Making death threats is inappropriate and childish and detrimental to the mood of the project in and of itself, which to my mind is plenty of reason to make it bannable. Even before you consider the extreme examples of actual homicide. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 23:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

* Jill Vandenberg Curtis ([[November 6]], [[1998]]&mdash;)

:Exactly, as I said, it's mainly a violation of [[WP:CIVIL]], not an "OMG PEOPLE ARE GONNA DIE" issue, so the instances of internet->murder are not appropriate. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 23:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

* Lisa Deutsch ([[February 28]], [[1993]]&ndash;[[1994]]); divorced

* Andrea Savio ([[1984]]&ndash;[[1992]]); divorced

* Leslie Allen ([[April 20]], [[1968]]&ndash;[[1982]]); divorced, two children

* [[Christine Kaufmann]] ([[February 8]], [[1963]]&ndash;[[1967]]); divorced, two children

His son, Nicholas (with Leslie Allen), died of a [[heroin]] overdose on July 2, 1994 at the age of 23. Of this, Curtis has said, "As a father you don't recover from that. There isn't a moment at night that I don't remember him." About his sexuality Curtis stated : "I was 22 when I arrived in Hollywood in 1948. I had more action than Mount Vesuvius! I loved it too. I participated where I wanted to and didn't where I didn't. I've always been open about it." [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053291/news] His current wife is 42 years his junior. They met in a restaurant in 1993 and married in 1998. "The age gap doesn't bother us. We laugh a lot. My body is functioning and everything is good. She's the sexiest woman I've ever known. We don't think about time. I don't use [[Viagra]] either. There are 50 ways to please your lover."

:::::We have no way of knowing whether they're in danger or not, that's part of the point. Most of the time they aren't, but sometimes they are. It's not our place to judge: "''Oh, well Mr. X is a real psycho but Mr. Z wouldn't hurt a fly.''" so we need to take them all equally seriously. Like it says in the policy proposal, there are sits out there whose whole purpose is "exposing" the personal details of WP admins: addresses, phone numbers, personal photos, the works. It's only a matter of time before the wrong person does something about it. Here's a [[http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2006-June/048811.html mailing list thread]] about it all. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 23:27, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

== Trivia ==

:::::::So Night Gyr, are you in favor of what the proposed policy suggests--that is, permabanning people who make death threats specifically? If so, a possible solution is to reduce this whole thing to a subheading under the existing personal attack guidelines. That way it would still get its coverage, and would still make the policy extremely clear, but would not need to have its own page. (This would also solve the problem of "You've been banned per WP:DEATH!" looking like a threat.) --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 01:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

{{Trivia|date=June 2007}}

[[Image:The Persuaders.jpg|framed|Curtis and [[Roger Moore]] in ''The Persuaders!'' (1971/72).]]

* Tony Curtis currently resides in [[Henderson, Nevada]].

* [[Audie Murphy]] suggested Curtis portray him in his biopic ''[[To Hell and Back]]''.

* Despite [[Lew Grade]] suggesting otherwise in his biography ''Still Dancing'', Curtis is good friends with [[Roger Moore]].

* Curtis and actress-activist [[Bo Derek]] met in Washington, D.C. in support of the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act in May 2004.

* Has appeared in tourism advertisements for his ancestral homeland [[Hungary]].

* Has stated that his favorite movie star and co-star was [[Cary Grant]].

* Made "Top 10 stars of the year", [[1961]] and [[1962]].

* In late [[2005]], Curtis voiced criticism of the film ''[[Brokeback Mountain]]'', stating that he had no intention of seeing it.

* Being measured for their costumes for ''[[Some Like It Hot]]'', the designer apparently said after measuring Marilyn "you know Tony has a better-looking ass than you do." To which Monroe opened her blouse and said "Yeah, but he doesn't have tits like these!"

* Curtis has reportedly enjoyed watching [[science fiction]] for decades, and is a fan of the [[United Kingdom|British]] [[science fiction]] [[comedy]] [[television series]] ''[[Red Dwarf]]'' (1988). In [[1994]], this show achieved its highest accolade so far, winning an [[Emmy Award|International Emmy Award]] for the Outstanding Popular Arts category. Curtis was 69 at the time and presented the award to [[Robert Llewellyn]] (who played [[Kryten]] in the show). In Red Dwarf Series V episode, The Inquisitor, the character Rimmer remarks on Kryten and Lister being manacled together "Look, they come here with some cock-and-bull story, they're chained together like Sidney Poiter and Tony Curtis -- I say open the door to oblivion and kick 'em through."

* Tony Curtis is used as a continuing [[in-joke]] in the [[2005]] BBC series ''[[Look Around You]]''.

* On the [[March 17]] edition of [[Soccer AM]] Big Stan Hibbert finally told his rendition of the ' Tony Curtis Gag' which led to fireworks exploding and applause heard around the world. He was then showered in flowers from the watching audience and show crew and almost forgot to do his trademark ‘centrifugal force’ celebration.

== Filmography ==

::Yes, that's pretty much what I'd prefer. (I'd also prefer a less ridiculous level of indentation) There are thousands of ways to engage in bad behavior on wikipedia, and such heavy emphasis on this one seems like a case of [[WP:BEANS]] to me. "Threats against other wikipedians are not permitted and are grounds for immediate banning." is pretty much what this policy boils down to. I haven't seen any cases of people making threats within wikipedia itself, so it seems rather needlessly preemptive in a very unwiki way to focus on it. I get such a vibe of rules creep. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 03:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Criss Cross (1949 film)|Criss Cross]]'' (1949)

:::Please, I beg you, ''read'' the "objections" section at the bottom of the proposal itself, as it addresses this (and your other objections to boot). This is by no means a "preemptive" measure: like the proposal states, there have been dozens of such threats, lately increasing in frequency. In fact, if you want a specific example, there's a case on AN/I right now. This is by no means an imaginary problem: it's real, it's getting worse, and it needs to stop. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 12:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Bedrock Across the River]]'' (1949)

::No, it still doesn't address my objection that this proposal is misguided in considering death threats primarily as danger in themselves, rather than as incivility/personal attacks. If there is danger, banning will do nothing. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 15:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[The Lady Gambles]]'' (1949)

:::If real-life murders and physical attacks have occurred on other major sites (Myspace, Ebay, Yahoo), why do you somehow think they couldn't happen here? [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 15:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Take One False Step]]'' (1949) (scenes deleted)

::You're ignoring my point and throwing up a strawman. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 15:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Johnny Stool Pigeon]]'' (1949)

:::As far as I can tell, your point seems to be that you don't think real danger exists. I disagree with that, and have cited specific examples of why, which were even in the proposal before the talk page opened. If you have other points you'd like me to consider, please state them here and I will do my best to respond to them. I might not be able to change your mind if you're absolutely dead-set against having a policy against death threats (although frankly I cannot fathom why), but understanding your objections might help shape the policy and strengthen it against problems further on. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 15:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[How to Smuggle a Hernia Across the Border]]'' (1949) (short subject)

::My point is that the death threats are not themselves dangerous and preventing or removing them does nothinmg to change the level of danger. People willing to kill over something on the internet are dangerous, but threats are a symptom of a number of things, and wiping a runny nose doesn't get rid of a cold. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 15:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Woman in Hiding]]'' (1950)

:::Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it should go unwiped, either. Nowhere did I say that this (or any WP policy) could eliminate personal danger to WP users. That's up to real-world law enforcement. What we can do is make sure that they can't ''use Wikipedia'' to threaten them. Our copyvio policy isn't supposed to stamp out all copyright breaches everywhere in the world, it just prevents them ''on Wikipedia''. It's all we can do. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 16:27, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Francis (film)|Francis]]'' (1950)

::Yes, they should be removed for the same reason as personal attacks -- they're harmful and hostile. The problem is that we're talking as if removing them has some relation to whether there is a danger. We shouldn't talk about them as if their existence places lives in danger and banning them or removing them changes the level of danger. [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 17:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[I Was a Shoplifter]]'' (1950)

:::Banning them ''does'' change the level of danger, as it prevents the situation from further escalating (on Wikipedia at least). And besides that, there's a significant deterrence factor in that the possibility of banning can cool off some situations before they even get to that point, much as the similar legal threats policy does. This isn't just about stopping users who have made death threats, it's about giving users a reason not to do so in the first place. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 18:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Sierra (film)|Sierra]]'' (1950)

::::If someone wanted to kill a WP user, in a lot of cases they wouldn't even need to talk. People give their full names and cities of residence on their userpages all the time. Banning would do nothing to stop that.

* ''[[Winchester '73 (1950 film)|Winchester '73]]'' (1950)

::::For that reason, I think NightGyr may be exactly right. This policy ''does'' need to exist, but it needs to be smaller. Sometimes, the more detail you go into, the weaker a rule is. I think we could easily combine it with NPA, boiled down to "If you do this, you're out of here." No one really needs to know why; it's common sense. We all know why. Threatening people is idiotic and no one in their right mind would argue that it helps. The issue of "free speech" is already covered in other WP policies. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 19:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Kansas Raiders]]'' (1950)

:::::To me, it's not overly important whether the policy site on its own page (although that wouls make it easier to cite) or becomes part of NPA/Civility policy. A certain amount of explanation/clarification is necessary though, as we've seen on this page (does this count? what about this?). [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[The Prince Who Was a Thief]]'' (1951)

*Just a note, "Threats of violence, including death threats." is already part of [[WP:NPA]], right under "Threats of legal action". [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] ([[User talk:Night Gyr|talk]]/[[User:Night Gyr/Over|Oy]]) 04:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

* ''[[Meet Danny Wilson]]'' (1952) (cameo)

* ''[[Flesh and Fury]]'' (1952)

* ''[[No Room for the Groom]]'' (1952)

* ''[[Son of Ali Baba]]'' (1952)

* ''[[Houdini (film)|Houdini]]'' (1953)

* ''[[The All-American]]'' (1953)

* ''[[Forbidden (1953 film)|Forbidden]]'' (1953)

* ''[[Beachhead]]'' (1954)

* ''[[Johnny Dark]]'' (1954)

* ''[[The Black Shield of Falworth]]'' (1954)

* ''[[Six Bridges to Cross]]'' (1955)

* ''[[So This Is Paris]]'' (1955)

* ''[[The Purple Mask]]'' (1955)

* ''[[The Rawhide Years]]'' (1955)

* ''[[The Square Jungle]]'' (1955)

* ''[[Trapeze]]'' (1956)

* ''[[Mister Cory]]'' (1957)

* ''[[Sweet Smell of Success]]'' (1957)

* ''[[The Midnight Story]]'' (1957)

* ''[[The Vikings (film)|The Vikings]]'' (1958)

* ''[[Kings Go Forth]]'' (1958)

* ''[[The Defiant Ones]]'' (1958)

* ''[[The Perfect Furlough]]'' (1958)

* ''[[Some Like It Hot]]'' (1959)

* ''[[Operation Petticoat]]'' (1959)

* ''[[Who Was That Lady?]]'' (1960)

* ''[[The Rat Race]]'' (1960)

* ''[[Spartacus (film)|Spartacus]]'' (1960)

* ''[[Pepe (film)|Pepe]]'' (1960) (cameo)

* ''[[The Great Impostor]]'' (1961)

* ''[[The Outsider (1961 film)|The Outsider]]'' (1961)

* ''[[Taras Bulba (film)|Taras Bulba]]'' (1962)

* ''[[40 Pounds of Trouble]]'' (1962)

* ''[[The List of Adrian Messenger]]'' (1963) (cameo)

* ''[[Captain Newman, M.D.]]'' (1963)

* ''[[Paris, When It Sizzles]]'' (1964) (cameo)

* ''[[Wild and Wonderful]]'' (1964)

* ''[[Goodbye Charlie]]'' (1964)

* ''[[Sex and the Single Girl]]'' (1964)

* ''[[The Great Race]]'' (1965)

* ''[[Boeing Boeing]]'' (1965)

* ''[[Chamber of Horrors (film)|Chamber of Horrors]]'' (1966) (cameo)

* ''[[Not with My Wife, You Don't!]]'' (1966)

* ''[[Arrivederci, Baby!]]'' (1966)

* ''[[Don't Make Waves]]'' (1967)

* ''[[On My Way to the Crusades, I Met a Girl Who...]]'' (1968)

* ''[[Rosemary's Baby (film)|Rosemary's Baby]]'' (1968) (voice)

* ''[[The Boston Strangler]]'' (1968)

* ''[[Those Daring Young Men in Their Jaunty Jalopies]]'' (1969)

* ''[[You Can't Win 'Em All]]'' (1970)

* ''[[Suppose They Gave a War and Nobody Came?]]'' (1970)

* ''[[Mission: Monte Carlo]]'' (1974)

* ''[[Lepke]]'' (1975)

* ''[[London Conspiracy]]'' (1976)

* ''[[The Last Tycoon]]'' (1976)

* ''[[Casanova & Co.]]'' (1977)

* ''[[Sextette]]'' (1978)

* ''[[The Manitou]]'' (1978)

* ''[[The Bad News Bears Go to Japan]]'' (1978)

* ''[[Double Take]]'' (1979)

* ''[[Title Shot]]'' (1979)

* ''[[Little Miss Marker]]'' (1980)

* ''[[It Rained All Night the Day I Left]]'' (1980)

* ''[[The Mirror Crack'd]]'' (1980)

* ''[[The Scarlett O'Hara War]]'' (1980)

* ''[[Othello, the Black Commando]]'' (1982)

* ''[[Where Is Parsifal?]]'' (1983)

* ''[[BrainWaves]]'' (1983)

* ''[[The Fantasy Film Worlds of George Pal]]'' (1985) (documentary)

* ''[[Club Life]]'' (1985)

* ''[[Insignificance]]'' (1985)

* ''[[The Last of Philip Banter]]'' (1986)

* ''[[Balboa (film)|Balboa]]'' (1986)

* ''[[The Passenger - Welcome to Germany]]'' (1988)

* ''[[Lobster Man from Mars]]'' (1989)

* ''[[Midnight (1989 film)|Midnight]]'' (1989)

* ''[[Walter & Carlo In America]]'' (1989)

* ''[[Prime Target]]'' (1991)

* ''[[Center of the Web]]'' (1992)

* ''[[Hugh Hefner: Once Upon a Time]]'' (1992) (documentary)

* ''[[Naked in New York]]'' (1993)

* ''[[The Mummy Lives]]'' (1993)

* ''[[A Century of Cinema]]'' (1994) (documentary)

* ''[[The Immortals (film)|The Immortals]]'' (1995)

* ''[[The Celluloid Closet]]'' (1995) (documentary)

* ''[[Hardball (1997 film)|Hardball]]'' (1997)

* ''[[Brittle Glory]]'' (1997)

* ''[[Alien X Factor]]'' (1997)

* ''[[Stargames]]'' (1998)

* ''[[Louis & Frank]]'' (1998)

* ''[[Play It to the Bone]]'' (1999) (cameo)

* ''[[Reflections of Evil]]'' (2002) (narrator)

* ''[[Where's Marty?]]'' (2006)

* ''[[Funny Money]]'' (2007)

* ''[[The Blacksmith and the Carpenter]]'' (2007) (voice)

* ''[[David & Fatima]]'' (2008)

* ''[[Oceans 14]]'' (2009)

== Some thoughtsReferences ==

<references/>

== Further reading ==

I think this would make an excellent policy, and I'm glad it's being worked on. Here are some thoughts I had as I read it over; what do you all think?

* {{cite book |last= Curtis |first= Tony |authorlink= |coauthors= [[Barry Paris]] |title= Tony Curtis: The Autobiography |year= 1993 |publisher= William Morrow & Co |___location= New York |isbn= 978-0-688-09759-2 }}

# The "policy in a nutshell" is good, but seems slightly soft. Would those participating support a replacement of "are completely unacceptable" with "will not be tolerated" or something similar?

* {{cite book |last= Ayres |first= Ian |title= Van Gogh's Ear: The Celebrity Edition |year= 2006 |publisher= French Connection |___location= Paris |isbn= 978-2-914-85307-1 }}

# I'm inclined to add the phrase "even once" to the bolded warning under Proposal.

# The "Nobody should have to die" bit reminds me of a cheesy Public Service Announcement.

# Should the "What to do" section be moved up? It seems more important than the possible objections.

# I'd lean a little harder on advising people not to look for a physical threat in every statement.

== External links ==

I'll probably continue bringing things up as they occur to me, if that's all right. Thanks for doing this! --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 22:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

{{Commons}}

* {{imdb name|0000348|Tony Curtis}}

* {{tcmdb name|848347|Tony Curtis}}

* [http://www.oralhistoryproject.com/TonyCurtis1.html Biography] and [http://www.oralhistoryproject.com/tcurtis_navy.html naval service] from the California Center for Military History website

{{DEFAULTSORT:Curtis, Tony}}

: 3. I concur, it's unnecessary and rather melodramatic.

[[Category:American film actors]]

: 5. I concur. WP:NPA has experienced significant mission creep, we can't allow this to.

[[Category:Hollywood Walk of Fame]]

: -- [[User:Finlay McWalter|Finlay McWalter]] | [[User talk:Finlay McWalter|Talk]] 22:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[[Category:Jewish American actors]]

[[Category:Hungarian-Americans]]

[[Category:People from the Bronx]]

[[Category:American military personnel of World War II]]

[[Category:United States Navy sailors]]

[[Category:1925 births]]

[[Category:Living people]]

[[bg:Тони Къртис]]

*All five of the above are fine with me. In fact, I'll put some of them (2, 3, and 4) into action right now. Any thoughts on specific wording for 1 and 5? [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[[ca:Tony Curtis]]

[[de:Tony Curtis]]

A thought: perhaps physical harm should be replaced by personal harm. I have read a WP case where someone with a search-engine related internet company was so mad that someone dare edit the article he mothered over that he contacted the university-related supervisor of the recent editor, bascially looking to belittle the man's so-called lack of expertise. I was shocked when I read this, and felt a ban of the user would have been called for, although it did not occur. Any kind of attack or threat of attack in the real world, be it physical violence, digital harm, or merely phone calls to people's contacts (with the intention to slander), should not be tolerated in any way. One publicized case would stain wikipedia in many minds. This is an enviroment to create an encyclopedia, hostility leading to the real-world in any form should be grounds for immediate banning. [[User:Guyanakoolaid|Guyanakoolaid]] 23:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[[es:Tony Curtis]]

*A very good idea, but the problem with expanding this in that direction is that to figure out the whole story in such cases would take actual investigation, which we can't really do with any consistency. For example, if I say "''Mr X just sent me 50,000 emails and crashed my server! I want him banned ASAP!''" How do we know it was really Mr X or somebody pretending to be him so as to get him in trouble? I think it's best to keep the scope primarily to on-wiki concerns, as we can at least verify those easily enough. Also, some of the "calling people's employers to get them in trouble" type stuff is already covered under [[WP:BLOCK]]. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 23:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[[eo:Tony Curtis]]

[[fr:Tony Curtis]]

: Along these lines, I think it would be wise to add a specific exception: threats that are obviously meant to be humorous. For example: "User X makes me so mad sometimes that I want to hunt him down & smear mustard all over his forehead." (This assumes that topical application of mustard is not toxic, of course.) I wouldn't suggest adding such an obvious exception to a proposed guideline, but I've noticed an increasing number of Wikipedians insisting that guidelines & rules should be applied an increasingly more rigid & literal sense. I agree that someone writing a threat like "Stop reverting me or I will kill you" should be banned; but someone writing something like "Stop being silly or I will have to tickle you to death with this feather" is guilty of nothing more than using humor inappropriately & should only be warned. -- [[User:Llywrch|llywrch]] 07:06, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[[io:Tony Curtis]]

[[it:Tony Curtis]]

:: I considered adding a "joke clause" or something along those lines, but decided not to, on the grounds that (a.) Like all policies, this one should be applied using common sense, and ''obvious'' jokes which don't couldn't conceivably bother anyone wouldn't count; and (b.) I didn't want to make it look like there was an easy loophole in the policy whereby anyone rightfully banned could come back just by claiming their threat was a joke. In short: Good idea, but like every policy we just have to hope admins apply it sensibly. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 12:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[[he:טוני קרטיס]]

[[nl:Tony Curtis]]

== Minor tweak on the nutshell ==

[[ja:トニー・カーティス]]

[[no:Tony Curtis]]

If it doesn't work, OK, but the statement seemed clearer. :) [[User:Justin Eiler|Justin Eiler]] 04:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[[nn:Tony Curtis]]

*Looks good, though I shortened and/or to just or. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 13:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[[oc:Tony Curtis]]

[[pl:Tony Curtis]]

== Threats aren't necessarily directed at "specific" individuals ==

[[pt:Tony Curtis]]

[[ru:Тони Кёртис]]

The draft policy states: "Covered: Any of the above threatening '''a specific''' individual who is not a Wikipedia user in an attempt to influence someone who is a user" (emphasis added). Since someone might issue a threat against an otherwise unidentified third party (who might or might not even exist), or for that matter might issue a threat on Wikipedia just because the threatener is a depraved person but not trying to influence the content of the encyclopedia, I would rephrase this item to say:

[[fi:Tony Curtis]]

:'''Covered''': Any of the above threatening another individual (whether or not specifically identified).

[[sv:Tony Curtis]]

Or something along these lines. --[[User:Metropolitan90|Metropolitan90]] 08:08, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[[uk:Тоні Кертіс]]

*I'm not sure, can you give some imaginary examples of what you're thinking of? If you mean stuff like "''Sometimes I get so angry I could kill somebody!''" I wouldn't say that's quite the sort of thing this policy is intended to cover. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 13:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hahahaha, what if someone said, "I am going to kill everyone on [[Special:Listusers]]." --[[User:WikiSlasher|WikiSlasher]] 13:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:That would be OK, as long as they started with themselves... Oops. Was that a death threat? :-)

:Anyway, I agree with those who say this should be handled under existing policies. There is far too much writing up of new policies to cover situations that could be handled under existing policies. This page does come across as rather melodramatic and "nanny state". It's a bit like the child protection policy being debated elsewhere. Most adults know how to look after themselves, and know to go to real-world authorities if they run into really serious problems online. Wikipedia should be wary of getting its admin resources sucked into a black hole of protecting children, dealing with death threats, and so forth. The ways of dealing with the issues need to be scalable to the available resources, and that would suggest a minimal, common sense approach, rather than pages and pages of detailed advice on what to do. Please clarify existing policy, rather than creating a new one. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 00:41, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== Some more thoughts ==

This policy fails to address threats made by an anonymous user. Functionally, they may have to be left out of the scope of this proposal since we can't really ban all AOL users. If so, the page should say so. If not, the page should explain what recourse ''is'' available and appropriate when an anon user is the violator.

It also fails to establish any sanctions when a user simply creates a new ID. Sure, we might be able to trace it back through CheckUser and re-ban the new ID but who has the time or capability to check every new ID. So what process is appropriate?

The proposal is also appears to be in conflict with the current wording at [[WP:BAN]] which limits who may impose a permanent ban.

I agree with some of the comments above that this seems redundant to our existing policies. Given the implementation problems, I don't know what this really adds to Wikipedia's protections or civility. Add it as a line (or even a paragraph) in [[WP:BLOCK]] or [[WP:BAN]]. It seems excessive as it's own page. [[User:Rossami|Rossami]] <small>[[User talk:Rossami|(talk)]]</small> 19:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

*It's true that this doesn't address IP users, but then no policy really does. It seems to me that an actual death threat is unlikely to be a "hit and run" situation: in other words, that a brand-new user looking at WP for the very first time is going to find a specific user and threaten to kill them. If an IP makes a death threat, it's probably a regular user who simply logged out, and can be rooted out with Checkuser. As for the new-ID issue, that would be handled just like with any other policy: if they stay far enough from their old ways that nobody notices, there's little we can do. But if they go back to threatening under a new ID, or confirm that they posted death threats under a former ID, then out they go. There is no conflict with [[WP:BAN]], which makes it clear that "community" bands based on policy are appropriate... in fact, in doing research for this proposal I looked at a number of former cases on AN/I archives, and it seems banning users after a death threat is already ''de facto'' policy, which this is simply an attempt to clarify. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 19:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

== Quick thoughts ==

I read the policy, and I'm undecided on it, but I didn't notice any discussion on prevention, or avoiding provocation. WP:Civil covers this fairly well, but if this is going to be a seperate page, it should probably have something on it. It might also be helpful to have a bit of discussion on the difference in the real world and on Wikipedia. Believe it or not, there are people who consider various threatening statements and conduct to be acceptable, even normal. So they may not quite understand that on the Internet, including Wikipedia, the various communication cues and social ties that serve as a buffer for such things don't really exist. Just some quick thoughts I got from reading this article. [[User:Mister.Manticore|Mister.Manticore]] 21:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

*That sounds like a very good idea. Any ideas on specific wording, anyone? [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 21:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

**For the prevention, or the social cues? The former is a tad hard, I'd suggest more direct references to WP:Civil among others, but I'd really need to think on it. For the latter, something in the objections section like:

::::'''Me and my friends joke around like that all the time'''

:::::That may be so, but the Wikipedia community is worldwide, so what's acceptable in your social circle may not work so well when there are millions of people who don't know you. To them, your joke may be not quite so funny.

::That's just a start, mind you, nowhere near exhaustive of complete. [[User:Mister.Manticore|Mister.Manticore]] 22:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I am also not convinced that this is anything more than a specific instance of [[WP:CIVIL]].

How about a real example (which some may recognise): what if one editor suggests to another that they try [[fugu]] while in Japan - is that a prohibited death threat? -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 22:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

*No. Telling somebody to so something dangerous isn't the same as a death threat, just like "take a long walk off a short pier" and similar phrases. Although not very nice, they don't constitute a threat at all. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan]] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:21, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

::So you are trying to prevent people threating to actively cause some physical harm, rather than suggestions that could lead to physical harm by another agency? Does it have to be the writer who causes the act themselves, or can they threaten to get someone else to do the deed? -- [[User:ALoan|ALoan]] [[User talk:ALoan|(Talk)]] 23:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:::I'd see that as a common-sense difference between "I'm calling a hitman on you right now!" (obviously covered by this policy) and "Why don't you go play in traffic on the freeway?" (likely a violation of [[WP:CIVIL]] but probably not running afoul of this one. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] 06:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

== Legal intervention ==

First, I would like to say that I agree that, as a rule, anyone making death threats should be blocked indefinitely. (There are some exceptions for technical reasons, rather than moral reasons, such as blocking an entire university indefinitely due to a single death threat made by a drunk student.)

I would like to go a bit further. I think death threats are a serious crime in the real world, prety much in whatever country you are in, and whether or not the death threat takes place on-wiki. It should not merely result in a permabanning from a wiki, but also a report to whatever law enforcement agency which serves the area the IP hails from. If the death threat is coming from a school IP for instance, it should be reported to the administration at that school so that they may investigate it. I think death threats are such a serious issue that it should have consequences reaching beyond editing priveleges on a wiki. Wikipedia and the Wikimedia foundation does not have the power or authority to impose or enforce any such consequences, but we can and should report crimes to the authories who ''can''. That does not mean that we want to send them to prison, often just having a police visit the offender will end any thoughts of making further such "jokes". In the very rare case where such a threat is serious, contacting the law enforcement is even more vital.

In response to the possible objection that this a violation of our [[WP:NLT|no legal threats]] policy, I don't think it is any more a violation of NLT than our policies regarding libel, where we can warn living-bio vandals that they may wind up sued by the subject of the article.

For precedent, I would like to point to [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive137#Death_threat_by_Cretanpride|this ANI]] post where I think those involved handled the situation very well.

[[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 10:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

:As one of the participants in that case, I thank you. I too would like to see "contact legal authorities" as part of this policy's recommendations. There's discussion of that on this talk page, but it's not currently included in the proposal. The proposal doesn't even include "contact the ArbCom and Jimbo", which is [[WP:BLOCK#Personal attacks that place users in danger|existing policy]].

:I learned some things from the Cretanpride death threat that may be relevant in considering this: a death threat is a serious matter, but it's covered by the jurisdiction of the person threatened. The Cretanpride case was complex, because the person being threatened (the "young girl named Emily" mentioned in the proposal) was almost certainly fictional. That did '''not''' mean that the threat was taken less seriously, but it did complicate the matter. I spoke several times to law enforcement officers in the ___location where I believed Cretanpride was located (a college campus in California), but they were unable to find him or confirm that the person I suspected had made the threat. They said that I should contact my ''local'' police department, which seemed counter-intuitive to me, since I'm in Connecticut and Cretanpride was (and presumably still is) in California. Furthermore, Cretanpride sent the same threatening email to several other Wikipedians, who are located in other states and countries. But they said that was how it had to be handled, due to jurisdiction rules. This may complicate a recommendation to contact law enforcement in the IP's area.

:That said, the only reason that I had a good idea of Cretanpride's ___location was because he had an [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Cretanpride|extensive trail of IPs]] which I could check, and because of some extra-wiki detective work which {{user|Akhilleus}} had performed. If the person making the contact with law enforcement had checkuser privileges, they might have been able to do more. It's also possible that the campus police I dealt with weren't experienced with this kind of offence — in another case, particularly one with a more solid death threat, they might have been willing to take it further themselves.

:As it turned out, before I contacted the police here in Connecticut, I received a second email from Cretanpride, saying "That last email was a joke." In the circumstances, I didn't feel that it was worth pursuing the matter further, especially since it was highly probable that "Emily" never existed. However, given that Cretanpride has [[Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Cretanpride|resumed his campaign of sockpuppetry]], I'm beginning to wish that I had pursued the matter further. Not because I think that anyone is in physical danger in this case, but because the sort of person who is capable of making a death threat on Wikipedia is probably also going to be persistent in other violations of Wikipedia policy. Perhaps if we had pursued the legal angle a bit further Cretanpride would have decided that Wikipedia was more trouble than it was worth.

:Anyway, all that is just to say that although contacting the authorities can be difficult, I think it's the right thing to do in cases like these, and I think we should recommend it. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 05:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

::One thing to add here, as someone who has been fairly shocked by this, and by the case linked to somewhere round here of the online chat/webcam overdose, I would ask that it be made clear where Wikipedians who don't have the resources to pursue something, but morally feel they can't turn a blind eye, should post/e-mail in a case like this, and be sure of getting a response and knowing that someone is definitely dealing with the case, and where to pass e-mails, etc. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 12:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

==Suggest rewording of the "outing admins" paragraph==

Until I read that I wasn't even aware there were sites that exist to "out" admins, giving addresses and such. I don't know if the this page should actually say this -- I'd hate for it to actually give someone an idea and then have them start going in search of said sites. (I personally would be curious to find out if I'm listed on any of them, however.) I'm not sure how to work around this, because the point being made is valid and important. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 03:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== Thoughts on policy - a single caveat ==

I think, overall, that this is a good and needed policy. However, I think it needs one exception. When two users have clearly interacted well and are friends, and the tone of the conversation '''clearly and unambiguously''' indicates that it was a joke, and both users continue to interact well, the user in question should not be indefinitely banned, although he or she should clearly be warned. With that '''single''' caveat, I support the proposed policy as written. [[User:Captainktainer|Captainktainer]] * [[User talk:Captainktainer|Talk]] 04:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

== We should require a request for CheckUser whenever a death threat is found. ==

We should require a CheckUser for death threats by users with accounts here. That way, we could contact the relevant law enforcement agencies and ISPs with the information, and they will be able to locate the user making the death threat and bust him or her. [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 05:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

:As someone who's been there, I support this suggestion (although see my [[#legal intervention|concerns above]]). If legal authorities can be contacted with solid IP information, I'm sure they will be much more likely to take the matter seriously. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 05:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

== Title ==

'''Comment''' I'm on the fence about this, leaning slightly towards the supporting side. Many people see death threats as something above and beyond normal personal attacks that need special attention. Ti be honest, I side with them. However, wouldn't the title be better as "Threats Of Violence (WP:TOV)"?It seems to me to be a far more fitting term, covering the wider range of violent threats. [[User:Crimsone|Crimsone]] 03:54, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

*Good idea. ANY threat of violence or harm should be treated harshly, not just death threats. Anyone else have any thoughts? <font color="#000000">&spades;[[User:PMC|P]]</font><font color="#FF00FF">[[User_talk:PMC|M]]</font><font color="#000000">[[Special:Contributions/Premeditated Chaos|C]]&spades;</font> 22:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

== Location of threats ==

One aspect that isn't mentioned in this policy is ''where'' the threat has to be made in order for it to come under the policy's purview. Cretanpride's death threat wasn't actually ''on'' Wikipedia proper; he emailed several users using the "email this user" link on our user pages. The content of the email made it clear who the sender was, and that it was Wikipedia-related, but the offence wasn't actually ''on'' a Wikipedia page; there was no diff that could be linked to. How should we address this in the policy? What if the threat was made on another website, or if it was ''suggested'' that the threat was related to Wikipedia activity, but not ''confirmed''? We should consider these options, even if we don't explicitly address them in the policy. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 05:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

:Well, in the case of CretanPride, he used the Wikipedia mail system to contact all of us with the threat. I think that this probably places the threat within 'Wikipedian space' as far as policy is concerned. For that matter, ALL Wikipedia policies should pertain to e-mails sent through the Wiki system (I'd assumed this was already the policy...?). As for situations completely off the namespace, the policy should probably encourage law-enforcement contact if the user feels the threat is legit, but there's little Wiki admins can do to ''confirm'' such threats are coming from specific people. [[User:CaveatLector|CaveatLector]]^{[[User talk:CaveatLector|Talk]]} 06:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

::For threats that are made outside Wikipedia, I note that WP:NPA has a section "Off-wiki personal attacks" that basically says off-wiki behavior can't be controlled, but can be an aggravating factor in evaluating on-wiki behavior. An off-wiki death threat could be seen as an extreme form of personal attack... [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 07:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

== Giving in to ultimatums ==

There should be something in the policy that states whether or not death threats should be allowed to (temporarily) determine the content of an article. When 'Emily' was threatened, there was a hot debate as to whether or not to give in to the demands of CretanPride and change the article's content until the issue was resolved. I'm not sure ''what'' the policy should be, exactly. My gut tells me that the Wiki shouldn't give in to such threats (and that this would only encourage future such threats). However, this seems to contradict the idea of taking all threats seriously...thoughts anyone? [[User:CaveatLector|CaveatLector]]^{[[User talk:CaveatLector|Talk]]} 06:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

:In that case, the debate led to a mini revert war. Eventually, we didn't make the changes, and the page was protected. I think I'd recommend the same thing in the case of another confirmed threat--don't make the changes, and possibly protect the page. If the policy is to meet the threat-maker's demands, IMHO that encourages bad users to make fake threats. [[User:Akhilleus|--Akhilleus]] ([[User talk:Akhilleus|talk]]) 07:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

::I agree that it would be good for us to say, as policy, that we don't give in to blackmail. As the [[Monty Python's Life of Brian|People's Front of Judea]] would say, "'''No blackmail!'''" —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 07:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

:::Tell them you are trying to change the page, but it is protected/reverted/whatever, and ask them to wait. ie. negotiate and stall them, while at the same time notifying the relevant people. I would recommend against a blanket ban on giving in to blackmail, as it is sometimes appropriate (think of the unlikely case of someone who is really insane, where acquiesing to demands might give the authorities precious time). Then, when the crisis is over, change things back. This supposes a high level of certainty about what is really going on (I am talking webcams/IRC here) and immediate, genuine danger, though in this sort of case, if genuine, immediate danger was confirmed, I'd hope the whole database would be locked by the office unless continued contact was required by negotiators. My imagination is running a bit wild here, so I'll stop per [[WP:BEANS]]. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] 12:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

== Humor ==

Although not encouraged, similar threats among proven wiki-friends for humorous purposes, cannot be considered punishable. Same goes for legal threats etc. Examples are all over the talk pages and involve very respectable users and admins. The smiley quote in [[Wikipedia:Death threats#Answers to possible objections|Answers to possible objections]] could be heavily misinterpreted and abused, so I would suggest we clear out this issue, without encouraging this sense of often bad humor. [[User:N!|<span style="color:#fff;background:#88b">•N<span style="background:#99c">i<span style="background:#aad">k<span style="background:#bbe">o'''<span style="background:#ccf">S</span>il'''</span>'''v'''</span>'''e'''</span>'''r'''•</span>]] 11:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

:Well, perhaps we could counter this by banning users who might be humorously threatening someone a shorter period of time. Like two weeks. --'''[[User:Exir Kamalabadi|<font color="steelblue">¿¡Exir</font>]] [[User talk:Exir Kamalabadi|<font color="royalblue">Kamalabadi!?</font>]]''' 03:50, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

== [[WP:BEANS]] and [[WP:CREEP]] ==

I agree fully with [[User:Night Gyr|Night Gyr]] above. This policy is unnecesary, all that needs to be done is add a sentence or two into [[WP:NPA]], [[WP:BLOCK]], and [[WP:CIVIL]] that says threats of violence are blockable (after discussing on the talk page of course). We don't need an entire new policy that says death threats are bad when anyone with half a brain cell can infer that from [[WP:NPA]] or [[WP:CIVIL]]. If this becomes policy I foresee real contributors joking around and being permabanned for it. --[[User:Daniel Olsen|Daniel Olsen]] 04:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:I agree that, while very important, it is probably most appropriate as a subsection to the policies you mention. The more we say about it, the less powerful it is. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 04:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

== We should generalize this policy to all types of crimes. ==

I think that this policy should be generalized to any criminal activity on Wikipedia that would be crimes in both the United States (where Wikipedia is based) and the country where the user is based. The qualification is needed because Wikipedia is an international project. If someone commits an act that would be a crime in the United States but not in the user's own country (e.g. uploading a virus from Indonesia before VBS.LoveLetter.A was released and woke up Indonesian lawmakers about the need for computer crime laws), we will need to give a stern warnning that such activity is not allowed here. If the activity is a crime in the user's country but not in the United States, we will need to exercise common sense. For example, a spammer in Britain should be banned and prosecuted because spam is illegal there but not in the United States, but someone circumventing the Great Firewall of China to read Wikipedia should be welcomed here. Therefore, my proposed title would be "Wikipedia:Criminal activity". This proposed policy looks like it can be adapted to handle all criminal activity on Wikipedia with a minimum of work. [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 21:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:Hmm... my instincts tell me that this may be a bad idea. I wouldn't feel comfortable either supporting or opposing this suggestion until I've heard from an international lawyer who would understand what the implications would be. One question is whether this would create different standards for different users: for example, if a certain activity is illegal in the United States and Britain, but not in Australia, does that mean that the Australian user has more liberty on Wikipedia than the Briton does?

:Furthermore, many laws in the United States vary from state to state. Wikipedia's servers are in Florida, I believe; does that mean that our definition of "United States law" is "Florida law"? I'm in Connecticut — what if something is illegal in Florida, but not in Connecticut?

:I'm also not certain whether death threats, the subject under discussion in this proposal, would necessarily be covered by the "crimes in US and where the user is based" criterion. I don't know for certain, but I'd guess that the laws on saying "I'm going to kill you" vary considerably from nation to nation. If, for example, Uganda has no law forbidding death threats, does that mean that Ugandan Wikipedians could make such threats with impunity? I think we're better off sticking to the subject at hand, rather than playing lawyer. —[[User:Josiah Rowe|Josiah Rowe]] <small>([[User talk:Josiah Rowe|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Josiah Rowe|contribs]])</small> 22:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

::If the activity is not illegal where the user is, but is illegal in the United States, we should warn him or her that such activity is very unwelcome here in the user's talk page, and if the activity continues, ban him or her. [[User:Jesse Viviano|Jesse Viviano]] 23:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

:::At which point we're looking at the issue of restricting the freedom of individuals that don't live anywhere near the United States, which is equally shakey ground. Of course, if we decide to balance by barring anything that's illegal in any country of the world, I very much doubt we'd have a community at all. Best to let sleeping dogs lie I think. Wikipedia should only conform to laws that are actually applicable, not laws that that aren't. Besides - wikipedia isn't a police organisation, and real world lawyering should be left to the professionals. [[User:Crimsone|Crimsone]] 23:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

== Good idea, but ==

This doesn't really need a lengthy page of its own, nor a list of "frequently" asked questions - I'm saying this because we already have a veritable wildgrowth of policy pages, and the more there are the more confusing it gets. I think it would be good to redirect this to the blocking policy, and add a paragraph there. It's really common sense - those who threaten people are not welcome here. [[User_talk:Radiant!|<b><font color="#DD0000">&gt;<font color="#FF6600">R<font color="#FF9900">a<font color="#FFCC00">d<font color="#FFEE00">i</font>a</font>n</font>t</font>&lt;</font></b>]] 23:02, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

SUrely a more approprate venue for a merge would be [[WP:NPA]], as threats of physical violence or death are essentially personal attacks of an extreme variety? [[User:Crimsone|Crimsone]] 02:07, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

== Straw poll ==

A lot of the discussion on this page is redundant, so let's sound off about it. Please add <nowiki># ~~~</nowiki> to the section of your choice, with additional comments if you so desire. --[[User:Masamage|Masamage]] 05:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

'''Full support''' - Wikipedia's position on death threats needs to be a full-fledged policy with its own page.

# [[User:CaveatLector|CaveatLector]]^{[[User talk:CaveatLector|Talk]]} - For reasons I have already stated above. (Though I hate straw polls as such).

'''Merge''' - Wikipedia's position on death threats needs to be more clearly delineated at [[WP:NPA]], [[WP:BLOCK]] and/or [[WP:HARASS]], but should not have its own page.

# [[User:Mike Young|Mike Young]] Far too over-cautious.. Are people really going to not committ a murder they were going to committ because if they did they'd be banned? -

# [[User:Masamage|Masamage]]

'''Comments''' - Add other thoughts and dicussion below here.

*Couldn't this possibly include "threats of physical violence" - I believe if we're gonna have something like this, we should include things like "I know your address and I'm coming to bash the shit outta you sucker" or "you better watch out next time you walk down X street bitch" (where X street is the street their house is on). Could be just called [[Wikipedia:Threats]]. --[[User:WikiSlasher|WikiSlasher]] 13:08, 7 November 2006 (UTC)