Talk:Aoraki / Mount Cook and Talk:Balkan sprachbund: Difference between pages

Revision as of 05:14, 4 August 2006

Revision as of 12:40, 5 July 2007

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=== This article is a Joke ===

{{move|Aoraki/Mount Cook}}

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This article is joke.It may fool some Americans that never left US and have no idea of where the balkans are, but for everyone knowing the realities of the region it can be treated only as a joke.If such union exists, it goes as far as to the point that Serbian and Croat are essentially the same language as (Slavo)-Macedonian are more or less a dialect of Bulgarian. This is more of a propaganda article than anything else.Actually it must be noted that despite the fact that all these nations lived under a common ruler (Turks) they kept their native languages intact.

<big>'''Please vote at the section called "requested move" below.'''</big>

The syncretism examples are a joke, because anyone that knows the slightest of Greek knows that EVERYTHING goes into sycretism.

The loan words is another joke, because for example English, has much more greek words than any balkan language.The same word " sycretism" is a loan (συγκρητισμός!).

{{Mountain}}

Τhe loss of the infinite in Greek is not complete.It's a lie.

==Move suggestion==

I haven't done so yet, but I think that it should be considered that this page is move/renamed to reflect the moutain's actual name: Aoraki/Mount Cook. I'm interested to see what other people's perceptions are of this. It's certainly been a change by stealth, but I note now that all the highway signage, even near Christchurch now reads Aoraki/Mount Cook, and that the village is also now calling itself Aoraki/Mount Cook Village.

Bare subjunctive constructions & Future tense formation- God, do your comparisons with other languages e.g scandinavian.Are they belonging to the Balkan Bund too?

Also, the page on Mount Taranaki is under that name rather than Egmont...

Clitic pronouns - Again the example applied for Greek is wrong.

--[[User:Limegreen|Limegreen]] 03:02, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I wonder with the insistence of making something out of nothing.

:Please no - we prefer to reflect reality, not some bureaucratic gobbledygook. It works perfectly well to have Aoraki be a redir to the name most commonly seen in English over the entire world (not just NZ). Redirs aren't feasible on street signs, thus the dual nomenclature, but we're not limited in that way. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 06:06, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Αργύρης Φωτόπουλος (Argyris Fotopoulos)

:I do see your point, however "reality" is not a static thing. It's not the first mountain in NZ to have undergone a name change, and some of theser were initially resented, and may have been labelled by some as "bureaucratic gobbledygook". I note that the page has been re-directed and then reverted before a year or so back. However, I'd guess it'll definitely be ready for a change in 10 years, even if it is policy to be trend-following. [[User:Limegreen|Limegreen]] 11:48, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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Is there any reason why the table of contents is aligned to the right in this article? It seems incongruous with the rest of Wikipedia. -[[User:Alexanderj|Alexanderj]] 18:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

::If the mountain was only known to locals, there would be a stronger case, but Mt Cook is very well-known outside New Zealand. Also, why would an official name change be by stealth? If it's official, you want to publicize widely so travel agencies can change their brochures, newspapers can issue new instructions to proofreaders, etc. Perhaps you could elucidate further? Are they saying the name is "Aoraki" or "Aoraki/Mount Cook"? Governments often use a "/" on road signs as a transitional form so people don't get lost, that doesn't tell you which is the "official" name. [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 16:39, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

----

:::If you re-read my original post, I didn't say it was an official name change by stealth... I referred to the changing of the name happening by stealth. The mountain's name has been officially changed for around 7 years now. The first couple of years nothing much happened, and indeed, I don't think some people were too happy about it. However, at this point I've started to notice more changes, and not just to road signs. Commercial websites, running tourist operations in the area, are starting to adopt the change. And the name is "Aoraki/Mt Cook". Had it not be named after Cook, I'd imagine the english monkiker, to paraphrase the Inspector General of Intelligence, would have been outski. Perhaps as a comprimise, the point at which half of the top ten results for "mount cook" in google come back with Aoraki/Mt Cook, it'll be time. It's currently sitting at around 2-3/10. [[User:Limegreen|Limegreen]] 23:28, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

==Move suggestion 2==

The official name is Aoraki/Mount Cook, and I think that's a better arbiter than google. We can always redirect from Mt Cook for international readers with guide books older than 1997. All the newer ones have the correct name, however. I'm going to request a move. --[[User:Tirana|Tirana]] 22:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

:Naming convention says use the ''common name'', not necessarily the ''legal name'', I oppose the move on that ground. [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 05:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

::How do you define what's common? A/MC is common enough - you see it in the newspapers[http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3729867a7693,00.html], in major guidebooks[http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/destinations/pacific/new-zealand?v=print], and on road signs over half the South Island. [[Paraparaumu]] is listed under its proper name, though the shortened use is far more commonly spoken. --[[User:Tirana|Tirana]] 23:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

:::I support the move because I think that if a name appears in national newspapers and on television, that makes it a fairly common name. And whether or not you think it is in common use probably depends on the people you happen to know. Many people I know prefer AMC to MC. [[User:Kahuroa|Kahuroa]] 00:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC) (ps - sorry about the hasty move - my error done in haste when I was short of time. Apology.) [[User:Kahuroa|Kahuroa]] 00:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::::Using Brian's reasoning, we would not be discussing this because the original name Aoraki would still be the common usage, in that no name anywhere in the world could have been changed in the past or could be changed now or forever. Those recent explosions would have happened in Bombay, not [[Mumbai]]. Should Wikipedia change its article names for [[Côte d'Ivoire]], or [[Myanmar]] or [[Yangon]]? Names can only become common usage after they have been in use for a while. If the government of any country decides there is good reason to change a geographic name, who the hell are we to tell them they are wrong? Had he been around at the time, Brian would have opposed the name change from Constantinople to [[Istanbul]]. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 01:01, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Who are a bunch of tin-pot dictators to tell millions of English speakers how to use their languages. (This does not include the [[newspeak|doubleplusgood]] government of New Zealand). - [[User:AjaxSmack|AjaxSmack]] 14:24, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::::::Like those who changed the name from the original Aoraki to Mount Cook? [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 20:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::You forgot <s>[[East Timor]]</s> Timor-Leste :). I'm not arguing the legal name; the legal name is "Aoraki/Mount Cook" however it is commonly known 'worldwide' and ‘nationwide’ by its former name. If we get into the naming of articles 'debate' a classic one that should be moved is [[Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom]] --> Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis, and that will bring npov, however it is slightly to long!. :P

Why don't you include a section about phonetics, as well? I mean mostly the middle "schwa" vowel.

::The main problem I dislike about renaming the article is the "/" messes up talk pages etc. [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 05:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

:::It went right over your head Brian, didn't it. It can't become ''"commonly known 'worldwide' and ‘nationwide’ "'' if the article name isn't changed. Refusing to acknowledge a change of name made by a government will prevent it from ever achieving the ''"commonly known 'worldwide' and ‘nationwide’ "'' status which you demand. Illogical. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 09:30, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::::[[WP:UE]] [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 09:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

:I support the move to [[Aoraki/Mount Cook]]. The redirect's history is completely trivial. Moriori created that page by moving the contents of [[Mount Cook]] to it. One editor added an interwiki link, but also changed quotes to smart quotes, and another editor then fixed the quotes. The [[Mount Cook]] article was then reverted to a version before the move and the A/MC article redirected to it. I think we can delete the current A/MC redirect without worrying about compliance with requirements of the GFDL to preserve article history.-[[User talk:gadfium|gadfium]] 02:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::Okay I see Moriori reasoning , I now '''Support'' the move (half-heartedly) [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 21:43, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

: Thank you for the idea.

So, is that a consensus? I tried moving the article myself but it wouldn't let me seeing as there's already an article at A/MC. Would blanking A/MC fix that, or does someone with special admin powers need to delete the old A/MC before pasting the new one on top? Or is it appropriate to cut and paste, with the redirect and edit history left behind here? --[[User:Tirana|Tirana]] 21:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

: But I will need an example in Bulgarian where an unstressed /a/ (from Old Bulgarian or common Slavic) is transformed into the schwa. [[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 16:50, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

What is "Serbian Torlak" in this article, by the way? [[User:Vassili Nikolaev|Vassili Nikolaev]] 22:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

:Yes, it needs to be done by an admin. There's currently a four-day backlog on [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]], and this article's request has just entered the backlog section. So it'll probably be done in a few days. (FWIW, I support the move too.) -- [[User:Avenue|Avenue]] 03:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

: It's a Serbian dialect. See [[Serbo-Croatian dialects#Torlakian]]. [[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 09:02, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

==First traverse of triple peak==

An anon changed the very long-standing claim in this article that [[Edmund Hillary]] made the first traverse of all three peaks. They appear to be right; see [http://www.summitpost.org/show/mountain_link.pl/mountain_id/134] under "Routes overview".-[[User:Gadfium|gadfium]] 22:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

: This dialect of Serbian is peculiar exactly because of its fitting into the Sprachbund. It should probably get its own page one of these days and be explained in more detail. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 09:03, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There are numerous written references, beginning with Freda Du Faur's biography, Hugh Logan's Classic Peaks, John Pascoe's Great Days in New Zealand Mountaineering ....

I'm not much of a linguistic buff (don't know what the different terms mean), but I added the sentences in Albanian. Some of them could have slightly different forms depending on the context in which you are using them, so if you want to make sure I'd have to know the version in language other than english (say italian or french). If you need any other sentences let me know. [[User:Dori|Dori]] | [[User talk:Dori|Talk]] 18:25, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)

==Requested move==

[[Mount Cook]] → [[Aoraki/Mount Cook]] – The official name of the mountain is Aoraki/Mount Cook. — [[User:Tirana|Tirana]] 23:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

:I moved this request back to the top of [[Wikipedia:Requested moves]] because a place for voting was not made. Please vote. -- [[User:Kjkolb|Kjkolb]] 10:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

===Survey===

:''Add *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''' followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>

: Hey Whoever translated the phrase: Vedo George, I see George, in Albanian "I shikoj Gjergjin" doesn't make sense, apo e kam gabim o Doro? Vedo is shoh, guardo is shikoj. And I shikoj is utterly wrong.

*'''Support'''. Mildly controversial cases like this are better placed at the official name. -- [[User:Avenue|Avenue]] 14:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[[User:Xhamlliku|Xhamlliku]] 03:41, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

:* ci ho dato il libro a Maria.

*'''Support'''. Discussed above. --[[User:Tirana|Tirana]] 21:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

:* e' il libro di Maria.

:* voglio scrivere.

:* vedo George.

[[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 19:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

in Bulgarian "&#1082;&#1098;&#1097;&#1072;" &#1098; is stressed and I doubt it should be called shwa. It is just specific bulgarian vowel, often stressed. [[User:Vassili Nikolaev|Vassili Nikolaev]] 02:28, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per above [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 21:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

----

*'''Support'''. It logical to follow Wiki precedents (Burma--->Myanmar etc) and illogical to not use official names. [[User:Moriori|Moriori]] 21:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

:you mean like <s>[[Timor-Leste]]</s> [[East Timor]] thats had so many RMs but most votes said to use the common name [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 21:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

::[[Bangkok]]'s official name is ''Krung Thep Maha Nakhon Amon Rattanakosin Mahinthara Ayutthaya Mahadilok Phop Noppharat Ratchathani Burirom Udom Ratchaniwet Mahasathan Amon Phiman Awatan Sathit Sakkathattiya Witsanu Kamprasit'' but Wikipedia uses the "illogical" ''Bangkok'' anyway. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">'''&nbsp;AjaxSmack&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span> 00:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' as per my comments above [[User:Kahuroa|Kahuroa]] 23:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' per above.-[[User talk:gadfium|gadfium]] 04:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' PC OTT [[User:210.54.114.146|210.54.114.146]] 07:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' -- use common name -- Wikipedia is not an agent of the New Zealand authorities. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">[[User talk:AjaxSmack|<font style="color:#fef;background:navy;">'''&nbsp;AjaxSmack&nbsp;'''</font>]]</span> 00:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Wikipedia is not the agent of India or other countries either, but........ [[User:Rense|Rense]] 01:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

*'''oppose''' NO one calles it ''Aoraki/Mount Cook'' except for govt hacks {{unsigned|125.236.44.41}}

::HUH?? I think the vote above this is the second one by that user. [[User:Kahuroa|Kahuroa]] 05:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

:::I just did a quick whois, the first IP is owned by "Telecom Internet Services" (aka Xtra) the second "SchoolZone Telecom New Zealand Limited " [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 05:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::::Oh; did you mean the IP's ? [[User:Brian New Zealand|Brian]] | [[User talk:Brian New Zealand|(Talk)]] 05:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Some comments on the Bulgarian examples. I'm not a specialist, just an user.

===Discussion===

:''Add any additional comments''

* the merging of genitive and dative is not really important in Bulgarian since all cases are almost extinct

* I really don't know how to form future tense with "to want"/"to wish" in Bulgarian

--[[User:Nk|Nk]] 16:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[[User:Nk|Nk]], Bulgarian sample shows that the same preposition is used in genitive and dative constructions, which ''is'' merging of genitive and dative in sense of [[surface structure]], not morphological [[Declension|cases]]. Compare to English prepositions: Dadoh knigata '''na''' Mariya - I gave a book '''to''' Maria. Knigata e '''na''' Mariya - The book is '''of''' Maria.

[[User:Vassili Nikolaev|Vassili Nikolaev]] 19:26, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

== Latin Table ==

The Classical Latin word for "[[table]]" (Romanian ''masǎ'') was '''mensa''', not "mesa": the form given here is incorrect. Though such a form would probably be found in [[ Vulgar Latin ]]. [[User:Alexander 007|Alexander 007]] 10:25, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

== Greek ==

The Greek examples are wrong, and honestly, I believe that this 'Language Union' is more of a political idea than scientific. There are very few things linking Greek to any of the Slavic languages, linguistically speaking. Thanks, [[User:Vyruss|-=vyruss=-]] 14:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

: If the Greek examples are wrong, could you correct them or at least tell us what is wrong with them ? The idea of a Balkan sprachbund is supported by a consensus among the linguists: I never saw any article that would claim it does not exist. If you want to see some scientific works on the Balkan linguistic union, please look at the reference section. [[User:Bogdangiusca|Bogdan]] | [[User talk:Bogdangiusca|Talk]] 16:42, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

::I think the correction shows what is wrong (replacement of ancient Greek dative with accusative and not genitive - from τη, Μαρία (ti Maria with dative ti (eta (η) with cedille), to εις τη Μαρία (eis ti Maria), to στη Μαρία (sti Maria)). And besides, the article you refer to says specifically that Greek is quite peripheral to the Balkan "sprachbund" and is not really part of it. [[User:Vyruss|-=vyruss=-]] 20:35, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not true that the greek is not part of this union. There are many similar features in both slavic (macedonian, bulgarian) and greek language. You need to be smart and have a basic knowledge og linguistics to understand and see them. They're all around..

==References...==

''Batzarov, Zdravko, Lindstedt, J., Du Nay, André, Grey Thomason, Joseph, Brian D., Kopitar, Jernej K., Rosetti, Alexandru, Russu, Ion, Tomić, Olga Mišeska, Winford, Donald''

You call that a '''Neutral POV'''? Ancient greek have nothing in common with the slavic languages. Slavs came in the region later. Where are the greek references? I also agree that this 'Union' is more of a political idea than scientific, as it comes in the end, from the article. Have funm making up the history :) [[el:user:Kassianos|Kassianos]]

==Torlakian==

By the way, about serbocroattian-torlak, I know that dialect well, and I am not sure they use any article at all?? Never heard a word with an article in this dialect, but in contrary, they use one "general" case, which corresponds to all 7 "normal" cases in serbocroatian language..

Thanks;

:AFAIK it's not universal in all subdialects but it exists ([http://www.matica.hr/Kolo/kolo0401.nsf/AllWebDocs/torl]):

::''Balkanizmi nisu svagdje podjednako uobičajeni; timočko-lužnički dijalekt najbalkaniziraniji je, pa ima i postpozitivni član, dok su prizrensko-južnomoravski i karaševsko-svinjički dijalekt najmanje balkanizirani.''

:I invite you to ammend [[Torlakian dialect]] if you're more familiar with it than I am; accidentally, I wrote a large part of that article although I belong to ones who needed subtitles in Zona Zamfirova :-). [[User:Duja|Duja]] 09:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Cao Dujo; Hvala za poziv da napisem nesto o torlackom dijalektu. Ja sam poreklom iz Makedonije i sreo sam mnogo ljudi (na faksu) iz Juzne Srbije, koji su govorili taj dijalekat. Mozda bih i mogao napisati nesto. Anyway, interesiraju me jezici i volim citati o tim temama. Cheers;

== Conlang ==

Has anyone attempted a kind of [[Balkanto]], a [[conlang]] mixing features from the Balkan languages?

== Balkansprachbund ==

Can anyone explain why the term "Balkansprachbund" is used in the intro? Is this a common term for the BLU? If so, why? Nothing in the article explains its significance. --[[User:Bletch|Bletch]] 18:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:''Balkan linguistic union'' is the exact English translation of German "Balkansprachbund", which is commonly used because many of the earliest reports on this subject were in German and the term stuck. [[User:Bogdangiusca|bogdan]] 18:45, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

::I think I'll add that to the article, because that is an interesting tidbit. --[[User:Bletch|Bletch]] 21:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Is "Balkan linguistic union" actually used very commonly? I've always heard it referred to as the "Balkan Sprachbund" in English. [[User:Angr]] 15:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

::::I actually was going to ask the same question as [[User:Angr|Angr]]. ''Sprachbund'' is the only term I've encountered in English. When I first saw "linguistic union", I thought this was a formal organization like the [[Latin Union]] or [[La Francophonie]]. I tend to feel that this translation pushes the [[WP:UE|Use English]] principle a bit too far. [[User:QuartierLatin1968|Q·L·]]''[[User talk:QuartierLatin1968|1968]]'' [[Special:Contributions/QuartierLatin1968|☿]] 14:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

WP policy says we use the most common name used ''in English''. This is not necessarily an English-language name, for example, we have [[croissant]], not "crescent roll"; [[calque]], not "loan-translation"; [[dachshund]], not "badger-dog"; and so on. So I did a few Google tests -- as usual, not definitive, but certainly suggestive:

{| class="wikitable" style="text-align:right"

|-

|

| Google

| .edu

| G Scholar

| G Books

| Google %

| .edu %

| G Scholar %

| G Books %

|-

| Balkan sprachbund

| 1030

| 97

| 117

| 85

| 69%

| 66%

| 59%

| 43%

|-

| Balkanisms

| 268

| 30

| 43

| 51

| 18%

| 20%

| 22%

| 26%

|-

| Balkan linguistic league

| 32

| 8

| 12

| 5

| 2%

| 5%

| 6%

| 3%

|-

| Balkan linguistic area

| 29

| 4

| 10

| 23

| 2%

| 3%

| 5%

| 12%

|-

| Balkansprachbund

| 25

| 2

| 11

| 27

| 2%

| 1%

| 6%

| 14%

|-

| Balkan linguistic union

| 103

| 0

| 5

| 5

| 7%

| 0%

| 3%

| 3%

|-

| Balkan linguistic convergence

| 4

| 2

| 1

| 2

| 0%

| 1%

| 1%

| 1%

|-

| Balkan linguistic alliance

| 4

| 4

| 1

| 1

| 0%

| 3%

| 1%

| 1%

|}

:Sorted by descending median percentage.

:For plain and .edu Google search, I restricted to English-language pages not containing the word "wikipedia"; for other searches, Google doesn't offer limitation by language -- most of the hits for Balkansprachbund (one word) were in German. I considered excluding some common German words which don't exist in English (und, der, das), but that would exclude English-language articles with German titles in the footnotes/references.

So it seems that the conclusion is pretty clear. The article should be renamed to "Balkan sprachbund". Discussion? --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] 17:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

::Moving to ''Balkan Sprachbund'' or ''Balkan sprachbund'' would certainly seem the correct thing to do. - [[User:f-m-t|Francis Tyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 18:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

== Bare subjunctive in Serbian ==

Millosh, I think that "Serbian (mainly Torlak)" more accurately reflects the usage; it doesn't say that it's incorrect in standard language, but that it's more frequent in Torlak dialect. You will seldom hear bare subjunctive in the north and west; imperative (yes, I'm aware of the difference) is more often used in similar contexts. On the other hand, it is true that the construct exceeds the borders of Torlakian dialects. For example:

#da dođeš pa da popijemo (bare subjunctive + bare subjunctive)

#dođi pa da popijemo (imperative + bare subjunctive)

#dođi pa ćemo popiti (imperative + future)

while semantics of the three are not identical, I'd estimate that #1 will be heard further south, while #2 will be preferred in north; #3 might be heard as well, but it more resembles western (Croatian/Bosnian) usage in my ears. [[User:Duja|Duja]] 12:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

== Admirative mood ==

There's a fine section in [[Grammatical mood#Admirative mood]] article which suggests that this, originally Turkish, mood has influenced Albanian, Macedonian and/or Bulgarian. It looks like a Balkansprachbund issue, and if so, it should be mentioned in this article as well. (I'm not sure whether [[renarrative mood]] is the same thing, so I put the merge tag). [[User:Duja|Duja]] 15:13, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

==Loanwords==

I corrected γομάρι < γομάριον and λ(ε)ιβάδι < λιβάδιον < λιβάς < *λιψ < λείβω. Now from the table it looks like greek words are from ancient greek only but ofcourse this is not true. greek have many words from other languages, mainly from turkish, venetian, italian, french, albanian and latin (english words are very recent in the vocabulary). I tried for more than an hour to find a slavic word but I failed (I dont say there are no slavic words, I say I cant find any. (the only I found is πούτσος and even that disputed) --[[User:Lucinos|Lucinos]] 02:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

:Loanwords aren't really directly relevant to the Balkan sprachbund, and the vast majority of words which are common among the Balkan languages are common loans from Turkish (with a few from Italian and more recently French and English), but here are a few loanwords from Slavic into Greek (found in Ανδριώτης, Ετυμολογικό Λεξικό της Κοινής Νεοελληνικής): by far the most common I can find is ρούχο/α 'clothes'; the others are very obscure: τσάσκα 'cup', μπάρα 'swamp', οβορός 'court'. --[[User:Macrakis|Macrakis]] 18:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

==Reference==

Hi, in trying to look up this reference I've had some difficulty... Is the reference to a paper in the book described by ISBN 9042013222 ? If so, it should be noted that the editors are: Dicky Gilbers, John Nerbonne, Jos Schaeken.

# ↑ Lindstedt, J. et al. (2000) Languages in Contact; Rodopi ISBN 9042013222

should probably be something like:

# Lindstedt, J. et al. (2000) "<name of the paper>" in Gilbers, D. et al. (eds.) ''Languages in Contact''; (Amsterdam : Rodopi) ISBN 9042013222

I'm really trying to find the paper and am having some difficulty.... - [[User:FrancisTyers|FrancisTyers]] 14:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

:Ok, here is the real reference:

:# Lindstedt, J. (2000) Linguistic Balkanization: Contact-induced change by mutual reinforcement. Pp. 231–246 in D. G. Gilbers & al. (eds.), ''Languages in Contact''. Amsterdam & Atlanta, GA, 2000: Rodopi. (Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics, 28.)

== magar and mesa ==

the Latin word ''mensa, mesa'' should be removed. it is inherited in Romanian, which would make its appearance in Bulgarian and Macedonian a borrowing from Romanian.

the word ''magar'' in the brief vocabulary chart should be removed as well. it does not come from Thracian/Illyrian (which are most certainly not related languages!). instead, the word is borrowed in all the languages ultimately from Albanian ''magar'' "ass, donkey", with many dialectal variants including ''margaç, magjar, gomar, gumar''. this word is believed to come from an earlier hypothetical *''margar'', from *''margë'', borrowed from Germanic ''marh'' "horse" (cf. E ''mare'', OHG ''marh'' "horse", ''marha'' "mare", etc.).

[[User:Flibjib8|Flibjib8]] 23:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Vowel harmony does not, as far as I know, exist in Balkan Greek (it has been reported in strongly turcified Greek dialects of pre-1922 Anatolia, but that is beside the point).

==Bulgarian infinitive==

Source - "Съвременен български език, Задачи и текстове за упражнения" издателство "Наука и изкуство", Петър Пашов, Венче Попова, Христо Първев, pages 182 and 183. The examples in this book are from Bulgarian authors, there are many examples I will cite only a few:

# Имало в градът Ви някоя госпожица, която била свършила английска школа. Можетели ми '''да''' някои сведения за нея, ако Ви е възможно да ги получите там? (Ив. Вазов).

# Той хлаба не може '''я''' от клисавина и ризите не може '''позна''' от синкавина (Ив. Богоров).

# Да бъде тъй неделя още,<br>неделя пек и мирно време,<br>'''олекна-ще''' и тежко бреме,<br>на мъките ни края '''до-ще.''' (П. К. Яворов)

# Додето сили има,<br>селяк без отдих труд се труди...<br>Почивка - ей я, '''би-ще''' зима... (П. К. Яворов)

I will try and find out not only the authors but also the names of the works. It is understandable why these forms sound weird to you (and to me also). They are dialectical and I wanted to include them to illustrate that this infinitive form does not always coincide with the past aorist tense. [[User:Arath|Arath]] 09:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

:Thanks for the examples! I see what you mean, but I think this article should emphasize the literary language, not fomrs that are ''so'' archaic and dialectical. I mean, you can find all kinds of strange things in authors from Vazov's, Bogorov's and Yavorov's time - look at this "би-ще зима", a Serbian-like future tense construction that is totally un-Bulgarian ''today'', so we don't include it as an example of Bulgarian future tense. My point is that in the modern language, the "infinitive" forms tend to coincide with the aorist, and those that don't coincide simply aren't used a lot, and are hardly part of the language any longer. I'd expect to hear [http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=sv&q=%22%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0+%D1%8F%D0%B4%D0%B5%22&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 "стига яде"] (or indeed [http://www.google.com/search?hl=sv&client=opera&rls=sv&hs=r2k&q=%22%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0+%D1%81%D0%B8+%D1%8F%D0%BB%22&btnG=S%C3%B6k&lr= "стига си ял"]) in modern colloquial Bulgarian, but not "стига я". Don't bother to find the names of the works; it's more important to check precisely what the authors of grammars say about them, and whether they regard them as part of the modern language. --[[User:91.148.159.4|91.148.159.4]] 12:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)