Talk:Henry (bishop of Finland) and Rugby league in France: Difference between pages

Revision as of 07:22, 1 July 2007

Revision as of 04:30, 10 July 2007

Line 1:

<!-- Commented out because image was deleted: [[Image:Logo_FFRXIII.jpg|300px|right|thumb|Logo of the French Rugby League Federation]] -->

{{ArticleHistory

|action1=GAN

|action1date=30 May 2007

|action1result=listed

|action1oldid=134379086

|currentstatus=GA

}}

{{WikiProjectBanners

|1={{WikiProject Norse history and culture|class=GA|importance=mid}}

|2={{WPBiography|living=no|class=GA|priority=low|peer-review=yes}}

|3={{WikiProject Saints|class=GA|importance=mid|needs-infobox=yes}}

|4={{WikiProject Finland|class=GA|importance=mid}}

}}

[[Rugby league]] has been played in [[France]] since the [[1930s]]. As with [[rugby union]], the heartland of the game is the south of the country.

==Fiction?==

If Henry was canonised within three years of his reported death by a pope who knew him personally, this seems like credible contemporary evidence that he probably existed --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 01:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

==History==

Right. '''If'''. -- [[User:Cimon avaro|Cimon avaro; on a pogostick.]] 11:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

{{Main|History of rugby league}}

[[Image:Fraus04rugby13.jpg|200 px|right|]]

:Henry has never been canonized by the Pope. That is imagination. He is called "the Saint" in Finland, but that is only a domestic invention. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 05:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[[Rugby football]] was introduced into France by the [[United Kingdom|British]] in the early [[1870s]]. It quickly began to flourish in the poorer, more rural south. The French rugby clubs remained in affiliation with the English [[Rugby Football Union]] and [[IRB]] when rugby split in 1895. By the [[1930s]] the rugby union authorities concluded that the [[French Rugby Federation|French Rugby Union]] was breaching amateur regulations, and they were suspended from playing against the other nations. Looking round for an alternative, many French players turned to rugby league, which soon became a popular game in France, particularly in the south west of the country.

:Legends of Henry are presumably formed together from several individuals. What is known for sure, is that Henry's supposed bones were moved from the church of Nousiainen to Turku in 1300. However, there does not seem to have been a church in Nousiainen already in the 12th century, so the bishop buried there could be the unnamed priest who was consecrated as the bishop of Finland around 1209. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 05:52, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

On 6 April 1934 the French Rugby League was born with the constitution of the Ligue Française de Rugby à XIII (i.e. the French RL Federation). On 12 January 1938 the Ligue Française de Rugby à XIIIe de Rugby à XIII was given official recognition by the government of Prime Minister [[Camille Chautemps]], himself a former rugby union player of [[Stade Français]]. The Prime Minister took the decision rather than the Minister for Sports, [[Léo Lagrange]], who was not in favour of such a decision as he was against professional sports and their development. Two days later, for other reasons, the government resigned.

::He seems to be called a Saint in Rome by the Pope (John Paul II) [http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/1985/january/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_19850107_gruppo-ecumenico_en.html] [http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/2005/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_20050117_card-meisner_lt.html] --[[User:Henrygb|Henrygb]] 18:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The LFR.13's governmental recognition remained valid until October 1940 and returned in full force from September 1944 till the present time (even though the sport was forced to change its name from "Rugby of 13" to "Game of 13". This lasted for 42 years 2 months 2 days when the game was once more known as Rugby à XIII). Rugby league became wrongly associated with [[socialism|socialist]] politics in France whereas rugby union remained the game of the establishment.

:::Pope was probably just window-dressing. According to [http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=3721] Henry was never formally canonized. He is also missing from [http://www.carr.org/~meripper/saints/saints-h.htm]. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 04:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

By 1939, there had been a marked growth in rugby league at the expense of rugby union. The French Rugby Union noted the decline, ''"Tandis que la Ligue triomphait, la FRR dans son congrès de Marseille, le 24 juin 1939, constatait que ses effectifs avaient fondu comme neige au soleil. Ses clubs n'étaient plus que 471; on en comptait 784 en 1930 !

== POV ==

Que serait-il advenu du rugby à XV de ce côté de la Manche sans la seconde guerre mondiale? Il peut sembler paradoxal que la guerre d'abord, l'occupation ensuite, aient sauvé la FRR."'' (While rugby league football was triumphant, The FRR(French rugby union) during its conference in Marseille on the 24th June 1939 observed that its playing numbers were in decline(like melting snow). Its(FRR) club number was now only 471; Its club number was 784 in 1930! What may have occured to rugby union on this side of the [[English Channel|Channel]] without World War II? It paradoxially may be considered that the German invasion, and than the occupation, saved the FRR."[http://lemondedurugby.chez-alice.fr/histfranc.html]

I removed the following line from the lead:

*Henry has not been officially canonized by the [[Roman Catholic Church]].

This assumes that only RC canonization is the only way to be considered a saint -- he's also not been canonized by the church of scientology - so? :) Henry commemorated on the calendars of Protestant churches of Scandinavia. -- [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] 01:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

:Henry was a Roman Catholic bishop and Roman Catholic church has not canonized him. Calling him nevertheless a "saint" (like so often done) at the same time when Roman Catholics in general have a strict process for persons to become saints is misleading. Protestants do not have saints in Scandinavia even though key church persons are commemorated. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 08:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

:After giving it a thought for a while, I removed all Saint categorizations of Henry since he does not fall into definition of a saint as defined in the respective Wikipedia article [[Saint]]. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 14:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

::The categorization of him as both an Anglican saint and a Lutheran saint has been restored, as he does fall within the definition of Saint as defined by those categories. The Saints banner has also been restored, to make it possible for the members of that project to know that this article is a potential candidate for the "biography of the month (soon to be of the day)" section on one of the feast days he may have. [[User:Warlordjohncarter|John Carter]] 15:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

:::Ok, sounds reasonable. But to be noted is that neither of those churches recongizes Henry as a saint - they just commemorate him in their calendars of "holy men". Wikipedia regards protestant holy men as equivalent of saints in its naming of categories, which is somewhat paradoxical, when the same articles also state that saints are not recognized by the same churches. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 18:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Coming back to the issue of canonization. I have revised the language of the lead. Prior to the 1580s, no saint was ''officially'' canonized - the [[Congregation for the Causes of the Saints]] was not established until then; prior to that, the recognition off saints was largely driven by grassroots, local traditions - indeed most of the most recognizable saints of the Christian tradition were never formally canonized. The word for this is that Henry was recognized as a saint "pre-congregation." I also included some extended info in the lead about the continued recognition of Henry by church bodies. [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] 18:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

==Vichy English born? banning==

The [[Battle of France|defeat of France]] in the [[Second World War]] had serious implications for rugby league. On 15th October 1940 the French RL Federation instructed its clubs to play rugby union as rugby league was banned. Only under 18 players were exempt, and only for one more year. On 29th December 1941 by a decree of the [[Vichy France|Vichy]] regime rugby league was banned after a demand by Berlin. Numerous players, clubs and officials switched to rugby union.

Between the end of 1940 and the middle of 1942, at least six other French Amateur Sport Federations were also banned and destroyed by the Vichy regime, this in relation with the sport policy of the [[Vichy Regime]] and of its [[National revolution]]. A [[BBC]] reporter explained it thus: "This year (2002) a French government inquiry found that "influential officials in the French Rugby Federation endeavoured to eliminate the competitor, which they claimed was a deviant form of rugby union.""

Modern books (and a tour guide on visit to the catherdral church in Turku) tell me that Henry was reputed to be English born. This is not mentioned in the articlr. Does anyone know why? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Hauskalainen|Hauskalainen]] ([[User talk:Hauskalainen|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Hauskalainen|contribs]]) 07:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->--[[User:Hauskalainen|Tom]] 07:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

:The claim that he was English-born has been derived from the 16th century information that he came to Sweden together with the future [[Pope Adrian IV]] who was Englishman. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 08:09, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

::OK, thanks. I will update the article. I saw later that the Finnish version contains the reference to his his English origins.--[[User:Hauskalainen|Tom]] 09:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There is also evidence that the order for the ban or at least the aqueisance of the ban came from [[Germany]] with its [[fascist]], [[nazi]] programme of supporting reactionary sports like [[soccer]] and [[rugby union]].[http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1941th4.jpg][http://perso.orange.fr/rugby-planete.ovale/souvenir/souvenir3.htm][http://www.wearefootball.org/PDF/vichy-et-le-football.pdf]

==Successful [[Wikipedia:Good articles|good article]] nomination==

I am glad to say that this article which was nominated for [[WP:GA|good article]] status has succeeded. This is how the article, as of May 30, 2007, compares against the [[Wikipedia:What is a good article?|six good article criteria]]:

''"They just came to the club. I was there training in the Under-13s. They told us we had to stop playing rugby 13. They took our kit, and even the balls"'' - 1942, Unknown

:'''1. Well written?:''' yes

:'''2. Factually accurate?:''' yes

:'''3. Broad in coverage?:''' yes

:'''4. Neutral point of view?:''' yes

:'''5. Article stability?''' yes

:'''6. Images?:''' yes

At the end of September 1944 the Ligue Française de Rugby à XIII was re-established but would struggle to bring French rugby league back to the levels of popularity it had enjoyed before the war.

If you feel that this review is in error, feel free to take it to a [[WP:GA/R|GA review]]. Thank you to all of the editors who worked hard to bring it to this status.<!-- Template:PGAN -->

— [[User:The Giant Puffin|<font face="Franklin Gothic Book" color="orange">'''• The Giant Puffin •'''</font>]] 14:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

<math>Insert formula here</math>

The consequences of the Vichy Regime's ban reverberate to this day. Assets of between 3 to 6 million French Francs of 1941 were seized (equivalent to 0.91 to 1.82 million euro in 2006). These were never returned but as compensation, the French Republic has given rugby league "Sport de Haut Niveau" status (FRL doesn't comply with all laws and regulations for this statute ^[1]). Consequently, the French Rugby League has received from the Republic around 1.2 million French Francs a year since 1972 in annual subsidies rising to 3,759 million in 2004 as well as rugby league educational facilities in [[Carcassonne]] & [[Toulouse]] and 6 to 12 development officers (11 in 2007).

== Collaboration ==

==Post War to the Present==

In support of the push to raise this article to FA status, this article has been named as the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints|Wikiproject Saints]] collaboration of the month. Suggestions for imporovement can either be made on the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Saints/Collaboration|collaboration page]] or on the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Saints|project talk page]]. [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] 19:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Although the ban on rugby league was lifted, it was prevented from using the word rugby in its title from 24 April 1949 until 26 June 1991, having to use the name '''Jeu à Treize''' (''Game of Thirteen'', in reference to the number of players in a rugby league side).

By a gentlemen's agreement, LFR XIII / French Republic / FFR XV of 10 July 1947, the French Republic also gave to the FFJ XIII (as from 24 April 1949 the official new name of the LFR XIII) the authorisation and recommendation of creating another association (NGO law 1901) i.e. '''"Ligue de Rugby à XIII"''' for the conducting and the controlling of the semi-professional/professional activity (i.e. the Rugby League National division) and to register the "Ligue de Rugby à XIII" with the French National Committee of Sports. Unfortunately the LFR XIII and afterwards the FFJ XIII didn't create the association "Ligue of Rugby à XIII"; they preferred to conduct and to control the National division via an internal commission in the federation (LFR XIII, FFJ XIII after).

:A [[Wikipedia:Peer review|peer review]] might help to get some more eyes on this article, and get it up to FA status. [[User:Pastordavid|Pastordavid]] 19:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

After the war the French game was re-established and the French became one of rugby league’s major powers. The first [[Rugby League World Cup]] was held in [[France]] in 1954 in order to raise funds. France played major international series against [[Great Britain national rugby league team|Great Britain]], [[Australia national rugby league team|Australia]] and [[New Zealand national rugby league team|New Zealand]]. The 1951 and 1955 French tours of Australia are still regarded as two of the strongest sides ever to tour Australia.

::I have asked a peer review from a sister project [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Biography/Peer_review/Bishop_Henry]]. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 07:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

However the game has since declined in France. Over the years some players have defected to play [[rugby union]], which has overshadowed rugby league since the war; but from 1934 to 1972 the rugby union players who defected to play rugby league were very numerous: Desclaux, Dauger, Dop, Puig-Aubert, Merquey, Jimenez, Mantoulan, Capdouze, P. Lacaze, Blain, Bonnal, Ruiz, Aillères, Marracq, Marsolan, Barthe, Quaglio, Biffi, Zacariotto, Rebujent, Mas, Sauret, Erramouspé.

:Thanks for more detailed info on Henry's current standing. I organized parts of it to the main body into "Henry's status today" to keep the preface simple enough. --[[User:Drieakko|Drieakko]] 07:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In Feb. 1996, a French team, [[Paris Saint Germain (rugby league)|Paris Saint Germain]] was formed to take part in the otherwise English [[Super League (Europe)]]. The players being drawn from the French League. It was abandoned in October 1997, partly because Paris was not in the southern heartland of French rugby league and partly because the players had the double burden of playing for both Paris and their original club.

In 2005, during a scheduled game between [[France national rugby league team|France]] and [[Australia national rugby league team|Australia]], the local Rugby Union forced the rescheduling of the match to a less opportunistic period for it.{{Fact|date=February 2007}}

==Governing body==

Since 26 June 1991 the governing body for rugby league in France has been the '''''[[Fédération Française de Rugby à XIII]]''''' (i.e. formerly Ligue Française de Rugby à XIII then, Fédération Française de Jeu à XIII). The Federation is a founding member of and a full member of the [[Rugby League International Federation]] (i.e. IRLB Jan. 1948) and of the [[Rugby League European Federation]] (i.e. May 2003).

==Competitions==

The [[French rugby league championship|French Rugby League Championship]] has been the major [[rugby league]] tournament for semi-professional clubs in [[France]] since the sport was introduced to the country in the [[1930s|thirties]]. The championship is divided into several divisions; the top league is currently titled ''Elite Championship''.<br /> The premier knock-out cup is the [[Lord Derby Cup]].

Each year four French teams take part in the [[Rugby League Challenge Cup|Challenge Cup]], and since February 2006 the Perpignan based club formerly known as UTC (Union Treiziste Catalan), now known as [[Catalans Dragons]], play in [[Super League (Europe)|Super League]]. Other French clubs such as [[Toulouse Olympique|Toulouse]] may follow.

==Popularity==

In 2002, it was estimated that rugby league had around 10,000 regular players in France, compared to around 215,000 for rugby union. The game struggles for attention in the national media, but it is covered by local outlets in the south. However the introduction of [[Les Catalans|Catalans Dragons]] into [[Super League (Europe)|Super League]] has seen substantial with articles appearing in national newspapers such as [[L'Équipe]], [[Libération]] and [[Le Figaro]] during 2006. It is assumed that the game will reach its previous levels of popularity and make inroads into rugby union's dominance.

==The National Team==

{{Main|France national rugby league team}}

:''See also'' [[New Caledonia national rugby league team]]

The French national rugby league team are often nicknamed ''les Chanteclairs'', after the cockerel which is the emblem of the team, or as ''les Tricolores''. They have competed in every [[Rugby League World Cup|World Cup]] and [[Rugby League European Nations Cup|European Nations Cup]], as well as playing in other tournaments such the [[Victory Cup]].

It was announced that from 2009, France would enter into the current Tri-Nations setup involving Australia, New Zealand, and Great Britain. The introduction of Catalans Dragons into the Super League, and recent strong outings from the international side led to this decision. This should benefit the rugby league world as a whole.

The French territory of [[New Caledonia]] has had [[New Caledonia national rugby league team|its own rugby league team]] since 2003, which is run by the Fédération Francaise de Rugby à Treize.

==See also==

* [[Sport in France]]

* [[Rugby union in France]]

* Many official documents in: [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFR_XIII FFR XIII], [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_R%C3%A9volution_nationale révolution nationale Sport policy], and [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdiction_du_rugby_%C3%A0_XIII_par_le_r%C3%A9gime_de_Vichy Interdiction du rugby à XIII par le régime de Vichy]

==References & external links==

* ^[1] [http://www.jeunesse-sports.gouv.fr/sports_1/sport-haut-niveau-sport-professionnel_69/soutien-au-sport-haut-niveau_373/sport-haut-niveau-est-quoi_588.html Haut Niveau Sport Statute] and [http://www.inet.jeunesse-sports.gouv.fr/fedes/disciplines.asp FRL Haut Niveau Sport Statute]

* [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badminton 6 other French amateur sport federations banned and destroyed by vichy regime]: Table tennis, Jeu de paume, Badminton, FSGT (for workers), UFOLEP and USEP (respectively for scholars and collegians)

* [http://www.ffr13.com/ France Rugby League]

* [http://rl1908.com/Rugby-League-News/vichy.htm French RL Banned]

* [http://m1.freeshare.us/128fs263841.jpg 21 April 1999, the French Republic's Homage to all sportmen, sportwomen, clubs and federations (FRL included) having had to suffer from the vichy regime and of its national revolution]

{{fb start}}

{{Rugby League in France}}

{{fb end}}

{{International Rugby League}}

[[Category:Rugby league in France|*]]