Talk:Iris Chang and Frio County, Texas: Difference between pages

Revision as of 14:30, 11 December 2004

Revision as of 03:45, 11 July 2007

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{{Infobox U.S. County|

Sadly another '''beautiful and potent mind''' of our times has been consumed by our new epidemic. From Califonia to Adelaide mental health affects us all. We need to be able to communicate in a better way so people don't get washed away like this. Simon Windsor, Australia

county = Frio County|

state = Texas |

seal = |

map = Map of Texas highlighting Frio County.svg |

map size = 250|

founded = 1871|

seat = [[Pearsall, Texas|Pearsall]] |

area = 2,938 [[square kilometre|km²]] (1,134 [[square mile|mi²]]) |

area land = 2,935 km² (1,133 mi²) |

area water = 3 km² (1 mi²) |

area percentage = 0.11% |

census yr = 2000|

pop = 16,252|

density = 6|

web = |

|}}

'''Frio County''' is a [[county]] located in the [[U.S. state]] of [[Texas]]. As of [[2000]], the population is 16,252. Its [[county seat]] is [[Pearsall, Texas|Pearsall]][[Geographic references|⁶]]. Frio County is named for the [[Frio River]].

Her primary occupation is in journalism, and like TV directors, she deals with history as a journalist. And putting the designation of historian on modern figures like her misleads readers. It sounds as if she is a professional one. --[[User:Nanshu|Nanshu]] 03:46, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

==Geography==

:No. She has written several history books. She makes money by writing about history. That is what a historian is. [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 05:01, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

According to the [[United States Census Bureau|U.S. Census Bureau]], the county has a total area of 2,938 [[km²]] (1,134 [[square mile|mi²]]). 2,935 km² (1,133 mi²) of it is land and 3 km² (1 mi²) of it (0.11%) is water.

::I take issue with your statement. Academic historian, which the lable "historian" often imply, do not sell their writing. They "publish" their finding in academic journals. Any so called "history" book you buy in book store usually do not come up in the reading list of history course though those book are undoubtedly more entertaining the one you have to read in the history course. [[User:FWBOarticle|FWBOarticle]] 17:30, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

===Major Highways===

Sort of...I don't want to say "a historian is someone with a PhD in history," but someone who is a journalist who writes about history is, well, a journalist who writes about history. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 06:46, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*[[Image:I-35.svg|20px]] [[Interstate 35]]

*[[Image:US 57.svg|20px]] [[U.S. Highway 57]]

*[[Image:Texas 85.svg|20px]] [[State Highway 85 (Texas)]]

*[[State Highway 173 (Texas)]]

===Adjacent counties===

:Why call her "a journalist who writes about history" rather than "a historian who writes journalism"? Most people's jobs have nothing to do with what they studied at university. I studied law, not education, but that doesn't mean I'm not a teacher. Chang is best known as a historian, she calls herself a historian, she ''is'' a historian. (Let's be inclusive. She is a historian, she is a journalist. These are not mutually exclusive categories). [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 06:50, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

*[[Medina County, Texas|Medina County]] (north)

*[[Atascosa County, Texas|Atascosa County]] (east)

*[[La Salle County, Texas|La Salle County]] (south)

*[[Dimmit County, Texas|Dimmit County]] (southwest)

*[[Zavala County, Texas|Zavala County]] (west)

==Demographics==

As you know, history is the field almost everyone can get into. Bookstores are flooded with low quality history books. Whether they are trained to deal with primary sources properly draws a distinction between real and bogus historians. So not to lower the quality of Wikipedia further, we have to note that.

As of the [[census]][[Geographic references#2|²]] of 2000, there were 16,252 people, 4,743 households, and 3,642 families residing in the county. The [[population density]] was 6/km² (14/mi²). There were 5,660 housing units at an average density of 2/km² (5/mi²). The racial makeup of the county was 71.86% [[Race (United States Census)|White]], 4.87% [[Race (United States Census)|Black]] or [[Race (United States Census)|African American]], 0.58% [[Race (United States Census)|Native American]], 0.41% [[Race (United States Census)|Asian]], 0.02% [[Race (United States Census)|Pacific Islander]], 19.76% from [[Race (United States Census)|other races]], and 2.50% from two or more races. 73.76% of the population were [[Race (United States Census)|Hispanic]] or [[Race (United States Census)|Latino]] of any race.

There were 4,743 households out of which 40.70% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 55.20% were [[Marriage|married couples]] living together, 16.00% had a female householder with no husband present, and 23.20% were non-families. 20.60% of all households were made up of individuals and 9.30% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.98 and the average family size was 3.44.

I was surprized to see [http://www.irischang.net/biography.cfm]. Wow, she claims to be a historian! So I changed the introduction a bit. --[[User:Nanshu|Nanshu]] 03:38, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In the county, the population was spread out with 28.70% under the age of 18, 11.20% from 18 to 24, 30.80% from 25 to 44, 18.70% from 45 to 64, and 10.60% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 31 years. For every 100 females there were 121.40 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 130.20 males.

:''Whether they are trained to deal with primary sources properly draws a distinction between real and bogus historians'' Are you planning to describe Herodotus and Gibbon as "bogus historians" too? [[User:Markalexander100|Markalexander100]] 04:18, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The median income for a household in the county was $24,504, and the median income for a family was $26,578. Males had a median income of $23,810 versus $16,498 for females. The [[per capita income]] for the county was $16,069. About 24.50% of families and 29.00% of the population were below the [[poverty line]], including 36.20% of those under age 18 and 30.40% of those age 65 or over.

Sigh. I said "putting the designation of historian on modern figures like her" at the beginning. --[[User:Nanshu|Nanshu]] 06:51, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Cities and towns==

----

*[[Bigfoot, Texas|Bigfoot]]

Does anyone know if she officially spells her name as "Iris Shun-Ru Chang"? I ask because this romanization is incorrect. Instead of "Shun-Ru" it should technically be "Ch'un-ju". [[User:Spencer195|{{User:spencer195/sig1}}]] 00:08, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*[[Dilley, Texas|Dilley]]

:What shows in her birth certificate may not be translitered in pinyin, so you should go by what she called herself and then annotate her Chinese name in pinyin. [[User:67.170.239.52|67.170.239.52]] 07:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*[[Hilltop, Texas|Hilltop]]

: It's best not to assume people romanize their names in [[Mandarin (linguistics)|Mandarin]]. Her name in Taiwanese, for example, would be Sûn-jû (with an S). I have no idea what her ethnicity is, but for we know, her parents could have named her according to their Chinese language or dialect. [[User:A-giau|A-giau]] 05:34, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

*[[Moore, Texas|Moore]]

*[[North Pearsall, Texas|North Pearsall]]

*[[Pearsall, Texas|Pearsall]]

*[[West Pearsall, Texas|West Pearsall]]

==See also==

==Iris Chang, Historian or/and Journalist?==

*[[Winter Garden Region]]

----

She travelled around the world to interview the people who personally experienced the history. Unlike a TV reporter who only summarized his findings in a few hours time, she spent years in researching and writing on the topic. Such dedication is more than a PhD candidate spend on any thesis. All her work were documented with notes and tape recording from her interviews. If you argue she is not a historian, please tell me what is missing. Is it because she presented her work as commercial books instead of thesis? So commercial books are disqualified as history? By that standard, we don't have much history in our libraries, and definitely none in bookstores. [[User:67.170.239.52|67.170.239.52]] 07:42, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==External links==

All you mentioned is journalist works. Apparently, she wasn't taught how to use primary, secondary and tertiary sources, which is essential for historiography, at least in Japan. --[[User:Nanshu|Nanshu]] 07:44, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

* {{Handbook of Texas|id=FF/hcf10|name=Frio County}}

* [http://texashistory.unt.edu/search/?q=%22United+States+-+Texas+-+Frio+County%22&t=dc.coverage Historic Frio County materials], hosted by the [http://texashistory.unt.edu/ Portal to Texas History.]

{{Texas}}

:If everyone want to argue over linguistic, one could say that anyone who write about history is a historian. That would incluce journalist who write about vietnam or school kids doing town history as their homework. Just that the word "historian" imply (trained) "academic historian" (which Iris Chang certainly wasn't) who are taught how to handle and grade different historical souce. If someone wish to imply from such label that she was a good (trained/proper/academic or whatever) historian, then one is certainly deluding themselves.

{{coord|28.86|-99.11|display=title|type:adm2_region:US-TX_source:UScensus1990}}

:I have found out about her death in the obituary of the Economist. I thought it was fair obituary. Afterall, Brits write the best obituary IMO. http://www.economist.com/people/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3423136

[[Category:Texas counties]]

:'"Proper" historians cavilled, and with some reason. Her book, several said, was too polemical, and was riddled with mistakes which she refused to correct. her reliance on oral history, especially the fading memories of Chinese witnesses, was unwise. Even her use of the invaluable diaries of foreign "bystanders" in Nanking was suspect, for these people - who had organised a "safety zone" both for foreigners and Chinese - had no idea of the actual numbers killed. When her book was transalted into Japanese, supporters of the Great Massacre school found they could not defend her figures, which were higher even than those claimed in China. ......

[[Category:Frio County, Texas| ]]

:She had been planning, too, to publish the diaries of Minnie Vautrin, and American missionary in Nanking during the massacre. .... She had saved thousands of Chinese civilians from the Japanese, ... In 1941, however, a year to the day after leaving Nanking, she had committed sucide, convinced that she had done too little.

[[Category:United States counties with Hispanic majority populations]]

:Friends wondered whether Miss Chang had felt the same. This was certainly likely, But she was also aware that her writing had playd into the hands of the massacre's deniers: that she had perhaps not only done too little, but protested too much."

[[de:Frio County]]

:I have previously stated something similar, that her book's standard from POW of academic is below per, that her book was sort of embarrasement to historians in Japan who was on the side of "Massacre" school and that right wingers relished her book saying since her book is false, the whole Nanking Massacre is false (which is obviously false argument). My insertion was vigorously contested by some other members of this site, who no doubt was feeling that to criticise Iris Chang is to criticise the "truth" of the massacre (which IMO is to played into the hands of denier). I feel that it is more honest to state that her book's handling historical material was indeed somewhat "slopply" (or "not of standard considered apropriate by academia") because she was not a trained historian but a journalist. It is undoubtedly true, too, that this has made the book immensely more powerful reading. Go to any university library and try readin something like "American History Review". None of the article woule ever top New York Best seller list. [[User:FWBOarticle|FWBOarticle]] 16:45, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[[bpy:ফ্রিও কাউন্টি, টেক্সাস]]

[[lmo:Frio County, Texas]]

[[no:Frio County]]

I have changed "historian" to "she wrote bestselling book on the history of Nanking Massacre". If someone say physicist, there is no ambiguity that the person is a academic, not highschool kid doing physics or journalist writing about Steven Hawking. The same can be said about economist, biologist, pharmacist, sociologist, criminologist and so on. By calling her historian without explaining her lack of academic training (which was quite obvious in her writing) would be inaccurate description of her credential IMO. On the other hand, calling her a mere "journalist", a profession which public consider equal to lawyers, may be bit unfair. How about adding "bestselling author" of the history of Naking Massacre along with freelance journalist? [[User:FWBOarticle|FWBOarticle]]

[[nds:Frio County]]

[[pt:Condado de Frio]]

:I've changed it back. Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary: ''someone who writes about or studies history''; M-W: ''a student or writer of history''. This is not an appropriate place to redefine words to suit a particular POV. [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|¹]] 06:38, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[[zh:弗里奧縣 (德克薩斯州)]]

::I don't think it is as simple as that.

:: historian: a student or writer of history; especially : one that produces a "scholarly" synthesis http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=historian

::The term historian clearly have implication that they use academic methodology and not of journalist. Many journalist write book about Vietnam war, for example, and they are not described as historians. As far as historical "research" is concerened, her book's main content was collection of interviews by the survivours. Most of what academic historians call "primary" material in her book was from previously researched materials by academics (not that there is anything wrong with that, even in academia, as long as credit is given in the footnote). Also, If you insist on narrower definition of the term, I can do likewise. I can change the term "historian" to "amature historian". Many "amature" (untrained) historian publish and Iris Chang certainly fall into this category (never mind that the term amature often "imply" second-rate work). There are two agenda at war here, one trying to up her credential as "historian" (with added implied credential as scholarly work which her work wasn't) and other trying to discredit her book as a work of a journalist (one of the least trusted profession in America) which is unfair given that many contention of her book was based on previously researched material by academic though she added quite few bits which is not as solid from academic POW. If your insistence of use of the term "historian" is based on the point that she "wrote" about history, then what is wrong with describing her as "the author" (someone who "write" book) of the best selling book on the history of Naking Massacre which is spot on description. This also allow us to avoidthe issue of (rotten) journalist and/or (academic) historian. [[User:FWBOarticle|FWBOarticle]]

:Amateur does not mean untrained, it means not professional. She was a historian because she is known for writing books about history (plural). [[User:Markalexander100|Mark]][[User talk:Markalexander100|¹]] 00:46, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The fact that chang wrote several books on (Chinese, Japanese or American) history doesn't change anything about her lack of traning as a historian. And as you should be aware of wikipedia policy, you can't censor a fact. I should also point out that it is your insistence of calling her a "historian" which brought this mud slinging. As the term "historian" has implication that someone is a academic, it is necessarly to clarify the fact that she is a historian but not trained/academic historian. "The best selling author of history of Naking Massacre" would have avoided all the confusion which the term historian would have caused. I will still settle for "the author" but if you want to stick to "historian but not trained one" be my guest.