List of newspapers in Hong Kong and Talk:America's Got Talent season 2: Difference between pages
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== Do we really need... ==
A listing of every televised auditioner? It's a bit of a overload. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|Woohoo!]]</sup> 18:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
:We're just following the example set for other reality competitions such as [[American Idol]]. Thousands of people auditioned, and dozens presented their act onstage for the judges that were only shown as rapid-fire video bites. However, in order to illustrate the variety of talents that auditioned, this article lists only those who achieved their [[15 minutes of fame]] by having their name publicized and their act discussed by the judges on international television. [[User:GUllman|GUllman]] 22:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
::Yes but American Idol's articles no longer have that. See [[American Idol (season 6)|this]] and [[American Idol (season 5)|this]]. The problem is that this generally isn't even 15 minutes of fame. Especially if everyone shown is listed. It's clutter and I don't think it's necessary. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|Woohoo!]]</sup> 11:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
::: The specific precedent is currently set at the [[America's Got Talent (season 1)|season one]] page, where all acts appearing in the three preliminary rounds for that season are mentioned. If we change how season two is laid out, then IMHO season one should be similarly changed. Also note that, while season 1 had three weeks of preliminaries, it appears that season 2 will have five weeks of them, resulting in an even longer page if the season 1 formating is kept. I don't have a very strong opinion on the actual formatting used at this point, but felt those were a couple of points that ought to be injected into the conversation. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 12:38, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
::::I organized some of the precedent in season 1, and I cannot agree that it should be maintained. A major difference between AI and AGT is: in AI, singers are compared to other singers, but in AGT, singers are compared to bands, comedians, magicians, dance troupes, and so on. There should be a way to cover the variety of acts that are presented during the audition round, but including every one of them is too much. I cannot make a determination of which of the preliminaries are notable because that would be [[WP:OR|original research]]. For the audition shows, perhaps only the audition round acts that were rejected should remain. (Like AI, AGT contestants must have performed in front of assistant producers—with cuts being made at that point—before moving on to the televised "audition round." But I cannot find any reliable sources to confirm that, and that is important to find out.) I will revisit the season 1 article within the next few days to see what improvements could be made to accommodate future seasons (revamping the ghastly legend is one of the tasks). [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 19:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::I'd go with Tinlinkin here. No reason to list every person. And just because it's used for season 1 doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|Woohoo!]]</sup> 13:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::I don't think I said not to list every person at this point in the current season. While the series is in progress, it's still important to keep track of who's in the running as well as whoever is eliminated. I was expressing redundancies in sections when the season ends. The final product at the end of the series should be the eliminated audition acts are listed in the relevant "Auditions" section, the eliminated semifinalists are listed in the relevant "Semifinals" section, and so on. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 14:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Question. What makes the acts who auditioned notable? Just being on tv doesn't automatically make you notable. That's the problem with listing everyone. Not only that but the audition section is completely unsourced. There is just no reason to list every auditioner when none of the other talent show type reality show articles do it. It's overkill. All of the recent Idol articles don't list them. The So You Think You Can Dance article doesn't list every eliminated contestant. Ditto On the Lot. And it's for the same reason. Not every auditioner is notable. And nothing is sourced. --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|Woohoo!]]</sup> 20:19, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Actually, I agree that most contestants in the audtion round who don't advance are not notable. I would be fine with deleting those contestants (and those audition sections in the final product if my plan below is adopted, but the sections have to remain while the show is in progress). Those acts are interesting, and some are outrageous, but "interesting" is not the same as notable and many of these contestants do appear only to get their slice of national attention. There are not many of these contestants, however, and the article would still remain a bit bloated if we plan to cover the remaining 71 semifinalists. I don't think many of the semifinalists are notable, either, but I object to making an editorial decision to determine which ones are–meaning deleting certain semifinalists and keeping others. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 07:15, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Sourcing is the episodes themselves. Same way as most other reality show articles that detail what happened in the episodes, let alone other types of TV show articles. If you are condeming this one article for not listing sources other than the episodes, then you are condemning a huge percentage of the TV show articles on the project. As for the reasons for listing off the eliminated persons, someone else explained earlier that it's to show the diversity of the acts on the show. Just how many different types of acts are shown. As for their notability to be listed, a lot of reality show articles use a level of notability on the show's own pages that would never get the contestants their own articles. The Survivor series articles detail all the eliminated contestants, and how/why they were eliminated, even though only 2-4 contestants each season generally end up notable enough to have their own articles. Noone is arguing that these people are, in general, notable enough for their own articles. But in an article specifically on what happens in the current season of this show, I think that they are notable enough to be listed. Just my $0.02 on the matter. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 21:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
:I think I'll go do something else. The next person who comes by probably won't be as nice and will remove the auditioners who were eliminated as well as do major surgery on this article along with season 1's. This article does not and should not exist in its own universe. Comparing it to Survivor is faulty because on Survivor, those people are finalists. They have made it through off camera auditions and all of that. Not only that but they are on for complete episodes. That's a bit different than a person who is going to be on tv for 5 minutes (or less). --[[User:Woohookitty|''Woohookitty'']]<sup>[[User talk:Woohookitty|Woohoo!]]</sup> 21:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
::The catch-22 here is the show's format. A "finalist" in AGT (as defined from season 1) is a contestant who would appear on the final 2 shows, and for two weeks before then. A "finalist" in other programs will appear continually in multiple weeks. That distinction should be a red flag that this programm cannot be simply compared with other reality competitions. If all eliminated semifinalists are removed, then there is almost no point to have season-by-season articles–the article would be too short. There are several eliminated semifinalists that have articles, such as [[Leonid the Magnificent]], [[Mark Faje]], [[Michelle L'amour]], [[Desperation Squad]], and [[N'Versity]]. Perhaps eliminated semifinalists should be treated with brevity; that's something I would go along with. And that means I will likely make changes to the proposed article format below. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 07:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
== Disconnect ==
The first Auditions section shows five sets of auditions, including Boston and Atlanta. Last nights New York auditions are not mentioned at all. So we have an obvious disconnect between the sections. We know that only four sets were shown. Is it somehow possible that the other two happened, but were not shown? Or is the old information on the five audition sets incorrect? And if it's incorrect by adding two auditions that never happened, is any of it valid, including dates on the auditions we know did happen because they were shown? - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 14:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:I did not see last night's episode, but a similar situation occurred last season. Atlanta was listed as an audition city prior to the first episode, but there were no televised claims of auditions from Atlanta. That issue is still unresolved, to my knowledge. Press releases from NBC Universal [http://www.nbcumv.com/dnr.nbc/americasgottalent.html] appear to be the only source of verifiable information coming from internal production. The [http://www.nbcumv.com/release_detail.nbc/entertainment-20060925000000-nbchit039americ.html first press release] of the second season also listed Branson, Missouri, Las Vegas, and San Francisco! I don't know how to address this. [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 15:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:: One solution is to remove the section. If the information is in clear conflict with the show as broadcast, then I would say we should think about just getting rid of it. In it's current state, in clear conflict, I would say that it is mostly useless.
:: Another possibility might be to see if each audition can be separately verified in archives of the local media. For instance, I know that the San Antonio auditions for the most recent season of American Idol were extensively covered in the local San Antonio media. AGT is not AI, and San Antonio is not New York, but there might be at least some independant verification possible. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 16:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:::I would lean toward the first suggestion at the moment. If you or someone else can find something definitive from the local media, more power to you. With all due respect, my current and future involvement with AGT will be limited to ensuring a smooth transition with the format change (if consensus is reached there). [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 17:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
== New article format ==
Although my attention has been elsewhere, I have not backed down on my promise to revisit the season 1 semifinal rounds and after. I already made some changes: I removed the "judges' choice" from the tables.
My intent is to remove the bulky tables entirely. (What are your opinions on the tables?) And in accordance with the above, contestants would be listed only in the sections from which they were eliminated. The section header structure would remain the same. I don't think the order of appearance is noteworthy, but the 3 checks from the judges probably is.
My format is adapted from ''American Idol'' articles (for example [[American Idol (season 6)]]). Sample entries follow:
----
In '''''Semifinals Part 2''''' section:
*'''Sugar n' Spice''' is a pop music family group.
**''Los Angeles auditions'': The group's auditions were not televised.
**''Semifinals (Part 2)'': [description of performance] ''—Eliminated by viewers''
*'''[[PBM (band)|PBM]]''' is a band from [[Detroit, Michigan]]. Their music was a combination of rock and reggae, also known as [[ska]] or [[ska-punk]].
**''New York auditions'': Morgan liked the band’s energy but wasn’t a big fan of the lead singer. Hasselhoff and Brandy wanted the band to come back. Brandy challenged PBM to prove Morgan wrong next time they hit the stage.
**''Semifinals (Part 2)'': The band was not selected to perform on stage. ''—Eliminated by judges''
*The following acts did not have their auditions televised and were eliminated by the judges in this episode: '''Rabbi Baptiste''' (Los Angeles), '''The Hemphill Kids''' (New York), '''K Turbo''' (Chicago), and '''Clarence Donaldson''' (New York)
In '''''Wild Card''''' section:
*'''Nathan Burton''' is a [[magician]].
**''Los Angeles auditions'': Burton performed the [[Bowl-A-Rama]] magic trick, making a bowling ball appear from a drawing in a large sketchpad. Then, he did a disappearing act involving the "Microwave of Death".
**''Semifinals (Part 3)'': [description of performance] ''—Viewers' runner-up''
**''Wild Card'': [description of performance] ''—Viewers' runner-up, eliminated''
*'''[[Bobby Badfingers]]''' is a "professional finger snappist" from [[San Francisco, California]].
**''Los Angeles auditions'': In addition to snapping fingers at a fast rate, he danced to classic 1950s rock. He was the first person to advance to the second round.
**''Semifinals (Part 2)'': [description of performance] ''—Eliminated by viewers''
**''Wild Card'': Bobby Badfingers was the choice of Piers Morgan. [description of performance] ''—Eliminated by viewers, bottom 3''
In '''''Finals''''' section:
*'''[[Taylor Ware]]''' is a singer and [[yodeling|yodeler]].
**''Chicago auditions'': The judges were blown away by her performance. When Ware revealed that she learned all her yodeling from a tape and instruction booklet, David Hasselhoff replied, "You are a good student!" All three judges voted yes.
**''Semifinals (Part 1)'': [description of performance] ''—Viewers' choice''
**''Finals'': [description of performance] Her celebrity coach was Tom McBryde, a country music arranger. ''—Fourth or fifth place''
----
Something that was lacking from the Season 1 articles was the descriptions of performances in the semifinal rounds and after. This format should solve that problem for future seasons. Comments? [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 16:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
: Looks interesting. Trying to get my brain around how it would work on a progressive basis. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.
: Now that the prelims are over, for each future week, all contestants who compete in that week are migrated down to the new week, showing their Move On, or Eliminated status for that week, and adding new commentary about their specific appearences. By migrating, instead of creating new sections for each contestant, they each have a history of thier time in one place. By the end of the 2nd round, all contestants currently in the "Advanced" sections of the prelims should have been migrated down to the 2nd round, leaving only the Eliminateds in the first round section. Then, when the 3rd round begins, the process is repeated, migrating each week of the third round down those that compete in that week's show. Wash, rinse, repeat until the finals. Does that sound pretty close to what you had in mind? - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 17:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::That sounds about right. :) [[User:Tinlinkin|Tinlinkin]] 17:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::: Works for me. We have 2 weeks now to get other opinions (no episode next week), but baring any major objections, I would say we go with that when the call-backs start. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 17:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
:I've added citation links referencing the current data directly to the episodes. This is nice now, but it will be even nicer as we start migrating data down as further episodes are broadcast. The current references are formatted:
'''<nowiki><ref name="ep1">{{</nowiki>cite episode<br>
''' | title = Dallas auditions<br>
''' | episodelink = <br>
''' | series = America's Got Talent<br>
''' | serieslink = America's Got Talent (season 2)<br>
''' | airdate = 2007-06-05<br>
''' | season = 2<br>
''' | number = 1 <nowiki>}}</ref></nowiki>
:But the key thing is that the full data reference is only needed once in the entire article. After that, to again reference the same episode, you just need to add the tag '''<nowiki><ref name="ep1"/></nowiki>'''. So, as items start to migrate away from the section for the episode that they originally appeared in, just add the smaller tag to each migrated item, giving the right episode number, to correctly reference the migrated item to the episode that it appeared on. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 17:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
::The referencing is a good idea in principle (and as required by WP policies). But, of course, they are implied by the mere mention of audition episodes, semifinals episodes, etc. I usually like to see timepoints if those TV episode reference templates are used (e.g. ''approx. 17:41''). But for an article like this, it is rather unnerving to do that for every entry. I could go with something like ''between 0:00-30:00'', but since that appears to be nonstandard, I am not endorsing that. When possible, third-party (non-NBC) reliable sources should be added in addition. [http://www.realitytvworld.com/americasgottalent/ Reality TV World] is definitely helpful, and other sites are available for recaps. ''[[User:Tinlinkin|TLK]]''<sup>[[User talk:Tinlinkin|'in]]</sup> 14:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
== Who made it into the 35 ==
There is, apparently, a good bit of cunfusion on various fan-sites and boards of exactly who made it into the 35 person "short list". The show was far from clear on exactly who made all 35 slots. The list currently on this page is based off of the list that someone else posted before I started, with a few I got from another list. We've got 32 or 33 names. I've since seen a third site with 36 names that they say may have made it. :) In theory, it would be possible to make 3 lists. 100% certain they made it (shown definitively in a group that made it through), 100% certain eliminated, and uncertain. Theoretically. OTOH, we are only a few hours from part 2 of the call-backs, and hopefully who made the 35 will be a whole lot clearer once that episode airs. So, IMHO, I say wait for tonight's episode to clear things up a bit, and make any adjustments after that. - [[User:TexasAndroid|TexasAndroid]] 17:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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