Clefairy and Talk:Estonia in World War II: Difference between pages
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{{WikiProject Estonia|class=B|importance=High|comments=}}
{{dyktalk|9 July|2007}}
== collaboration ==
There seems to be an extremely low profile given to the issue of collaboration. This is strange considering it is by far the most notorious and controversial aspect of Estonia's experience in World War II. For this reason, from my point of view, collaboration should at the very least be mentioned in the introduction and given a full section of its own.[[User:Nwe|Nwe]] 17:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
::Thank you for your opinion, [[User:Nwe|Nwe]]. Definitely, any properly sourced and referenced facts about collaboration with the occupying powers could be more detailedly listed somewhere. But in general, since the scope of this article is an enormous already, I'd suggest starting and expanding the spreads, main articles and addressing the facts, case by case with appropriate refs more in detail over there.
::Regarding the article here, I agree that during the soviet occupations there is only one name and one political party mentioned at the moment that were working closely with the Soviet occupying powers. That there could be lists in much more detail like the 7 native Estonians that have been accused of crimes against humanity and are listed one by one under the German occupation in the article The Estonian Self-Administration during the German occupation could have a section here perhaps.
::But since this article is a bit over loaded already, the last but not least, the article has survived the listing on the front page of WP and therefore should be in a good condition overall. More detailed collaboration facts with the occupying powers would be much better off if those had closer coverage on the spreads. There is [[Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany]] already listed as the main article and Occupation of Estonia by USSR coming out any time soon so I would narrow the current article down instead as the threads are getting expanded.
::Please note though that listing anybody by name as a collaborator without a properly referenced court order is not a fact but an opinion. Further on, it would be illegal and therefore can't be used in WP , specially if it's about living persons. I'm sure you're aware of it:
::Thanks--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 06:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
==Historical Soviet Sources==
Please stop edit warring and engage in a discussion instead. Since its a fact that the authenticity and actual dates of those images is questioned, I have requested comments from the Estonian Film Archives to sort out the political comments added to the images. Please also familiarize yourself with the history according to the Soviet Sources and stop pushing alternative viewpoints like de jure recognition under it. Even the current Russian government doesn't admit to it, therefore other than the historical soviet viewpoints that are clearly sourced shouldn't be used under this section. So, meanwhile I'm going to revert the article to a previous clean state and thereafter, please feel free to discuss the issues here and go on with editing the section after a consensus is met. Thanks!--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 15:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:Soviet sources on modern history are far from reliable, and they fail several parts of 'reliable' definition at [[WP:RS]]. That said, they certainly can be used to describe Soviet POV, as long as it is clearly noted in the article for what it is.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus| Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;"> talk </font>]]</span></sub> 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
:: I agree with Piotrus. Soviet history sources are not reliable, but they can stay in the article - but their unreliability should be pointed out. As for the pictures - without proper explanation, they represent POV view - that Estonia voluntarily joined Soviet Union. My comment to the first picture was sourced and correct, to the second, it should be added that participating in those marches was not voluntary. [[User:Sander_S%C3%A4de|<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype; color:gray;font-size:15px">Sander Säde</span>]] 20:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks [[User:Petri_Krohn]] for making it clear that you're not interested in a discussion for finding a consensus but are just after your own agenda. Calling lets say [[Katyn massacre]] during the Soviet [[invasion of Poland]] "very little hostilities" explained it all. Since you have shown a pattern of similar disruptive edits driven by a political agenda also elsewhere, I'm calling for all editors ASAP to revert any edits done my [[User:Petri_Krohn]] here until he/she comes to respect a policy that's called Consensus.--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi [[User:Sander_S%C3%A4de|<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype; color:gray;font-size:15px">Sander Säde</span>]]. I personally don't share your concerns regarding the “POV that Estonia voluntarily joined the Soviet Union”. Since such a POV can only be common to rapists that could claim the victim has asked for it. It's very common that it happens in rape cases in general so such a POV shouldn't surprise anybody. It would be against common sense though to suggest that a sovereign country that had fought a war against it's former master just about 20 years ago, would ask for getting rid of its sovereignty in benefit to the historical oppressor. Therefore please lets leave any bystanders an ability to make the judgments if needed. I think those staged images from the era under the discussion can be tolerated in case none of the political comments are used as an addition. --[[User:Termer|Termer]] 08:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
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