Chicago III and Talk:Estonia in World War II: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 08:33, 12 July 2007

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{{WikiProject Estonia|class=B|importance=High|comments=}}

{{Infobox Album |

{{dyktalk|9 July|2007}}

Name = Chicago III|

Type = Studio album|

Artist = [[Chicago (band)|Chicago]] |

Cover = ChicagoIII.jpg |

Released = [[11 January]] [[1971]] |

Recorded = Late November - <br />Early December 1970 |

Genre = [[Rock and roll|Rock]] |

Length = 71:29 |

Label = [[Columbia Records]] |

Producer = [[James William Guercio]]|

Reviews =

* [[All Music Guide]] [[Image:2of5.png]] [http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:n8rv28gc055a link] |

Last album = ''[[Chicago (album)|Chicago]]''<br />(1970) |

This album = ''Chicago III''<br />(1971) |

Next album = ''[[Chicago at Carnegie Hall]]''<br />(1971) |

}}

'''''Chicago III''''' is the third album by [[United States|American]] [[rock music|rock]] band [[Chicago (band)|Chicago]] and was released in 1971. It is also band's third consecutive [[double album]] of new studio material in less than two years, a feat that has yet to be repeated by any major artist or group.

== collaboration ==

In the wake of ''[[Chicago (album)|Chicago]]'''s enormous worldwide success, Chicago spent almost all of 1970 on the road, an exhaustive undertaking. When the band came to record ''Chicago III'' at the end of the year - which producer [[James William Guercio]] had already determined would be another double, they were physically drained.

There seems to be an extremely low profile given to the issue of collaboration. This is strange considering it is by far the most notorious and controversial aspect of Estonia's experience in World War II. For this reason, from my point of view, collaboration should at the very least be mentioned in the introduction and given a full section of its own.[[User:Nwe|Nwe]] 17:12, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Their long hours on the road gave the principal songwriters, [[Robert Lamm]], [[Terry Kath]] and [[James Pankow]], much food for thought, resulting in more serious subject matter, which contrasted with the positivity of their first two sets. Lamm documented his homesickness in the "Travel Suite", while Pankow bemoaned the winning battle of industry over nature in the purely instrumental "Elegy" suite, (an issue Lamm also touches upon in "Mother"). While Kath's multi-part "An Hour In The Shower" provides a reprieve from the sobering explorations elsewhere, ''Chicago III'' was undeniably the result of a band who had seen the flip side of the world over the last several months.

''Chicago III'' is also notable for its variety of musical genres, with the band relying slightly less on their trademark horns. Both "Sing A Mean Tune Kid" and "Free" (#20) feature the influence of [[funk]], "What Else Can I Say" and "Flight 602" have a [[country music|country]] feel, while abstract qualities are found in "Free Country" and "Progress?"

::Thank you for your opinion, [[User:Nwe|Nwe]]. Definitely, any properly sourced and referenced facts about collaboration with the occupying powers could be more detailedly listed somewhere. But in general, since the scope of this article is an enormous already, I'd suggest starting and expanding the spreads, main articles and addressing the facts, case by case with appropriate refs more in detail over there.

The spoken word track "When All The Laughter Dies In Sorrow" was later sampled by [[Anarchy Steering Committee]] in 2003 but was incorrectly attributed to Chicago.

::Regarding the article here, I agree that during the soviet occupations there is only one name and one political party mentioned at the moment that were working closely with the Soviet occupying powers. That there could be lists in much more detail like the 7 native Estonians that have been accused of crimes against humanity and are listed one by one under the German occupation in the article The Estonian Self-Administration during the German occupation could have a section here perhaps.

Released in January 1971, initially on [[Columbia Records]], ''Chicago III'' - their first album to sport a [[Roman numeral]] in its title - sold well upon its release, yet its paucity of big hit singles and its more experimental nature meant that it didn't wear as well with the masses as ''[[The Chicago Transit Authority (album)|The Chicago Transit Authority]]'' and ''Chicago'' did. "Free" was a Top 20 hit, and [[Peter Cetera]]'s "Lowdown" (#35) reached the Top 40. And while ''Chicago III'' marked a dwindling in UK fortunes, reaching #9 in a brief chart run, it provided Chicago with their highest charting disc yet in the US, going to #2.

::But since this article is a bit over loaded already, the last but not least, the article has survived the listing on the front page of WP and therefore should be in a good condition overall. More detailed collaboration facts with the occupying powers would be much better off if those had closer coverage on the spreads. There is [[Occupation of Estonia by Nazi Germany]] already listed as the main article and Occupation of Estonia by USSR coming out any time soon so I would narrow the current article down instead as the threads are getting expanded.

In 2002, ''Chicago III'' was remastered and reissued on one [[CD]] by [[Rhino Records]].

::Please note though that listing anybody by name as a collaborator without a properly referenced court order is not a fact but an opinion. Further on, it would be illegal and therefore can't be used in WP , specially if it's about living persons. I'm sure you're aware of it:

==Track listing==

::Thanks--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 06:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

#"Sing a Mean Tune Kid" ([[Robert Lamm]]) – 9:13

#"Loneliness Is Just a Word" (Robert Lamm) – 2:36

#"What Else Can I Say" ([[Peter Cetera]]) – 3:12

#"I Don't Want Your Money" ([[Terry Kath]]/Robert Lamm) – 4:47

#"Flight 602" (Robert Lamm) – 2:45

#"Motorboat to Mars" ([[Danny Seraphine]]) – 1:30

#"Free" (Robert Lamm) – 2:16

#"Free Country" (Terry Kath/Robert Lamm/[[Walter Parazaider]]) – 5:47

#"At The Sunrise" (Robert Lamm) – 2:46

#"Happy 'Cause I'm Going Home" (Robert Lamm) – 7:26

#* ''Tracks 5 - 10 form the "Travel" suite''

#"Mother" (Robert Lamm) – 4:30

#"Lowdown" (Peter Cetera/Danny Seraphine) – 3:35

#"A Hard Risin' Morning Without Breakfast" (Terry Kath) – 1:52

#"Off to Work" (Terry Kath) – 0:46

#"Fallin' Out" (Terry Kath) – 0:53

#"Dreamin' Home" (Terry Kath) – 0:49

#"Morning Blues Again" (Terry Kath) – 1:10

#* ''Tracks 13 - 17 form the "An Hour in the Shower" suite''

#"When All the Laughter Dies in Sorrow" (Kendrew Lascelles) – 1:03

#"Canon" ([[James Pankow]]) – 1:05

#"Once Upon a Time...." (James Pankow) – 2:34

#"Progress?" ([[James William Guercio]]/James Pankow) – 2:35

#"The Approaching Storm" (James Pankow) – 6:26

#"Man vs. Man: The End" (James Pankow) – 1:34

#* ''Tracks 18 - 23 form the "Elegy" suite''

==Historical Soviet Sources==

''Chicago III'' (Columbia 30110) reached '''#2''' in the US during a chart stay of 63 weeks. It also peaked at '''#31''' in the UK.

Please stop edit warring and engage in a discussion instead. Since its a fact that the authenticity and actual dates of those images is questioned, I have requested comments from the Estonian Film Archives to sort out the political comments added to the images. Please also familiarize yourself with the history according to the Soviet Sources and stop pushing alternative viewpoints like de jure recognition under it. Even the current Russian government doesn't admit to it, therefore other than the historical soviet viewpoints that are clearly sourced shouldn't be used under this section. So, meanwhile I'm going to revert the article to a previous clean state and thereafter, please feel free to discuss the issues here and go on with editing the section after a consensus is met. Thanks!--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 15:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

==Personnel==

:Soviet sources on modern history are far from reliable, and they fail several parts of 'reliable' definition at [[WP:RS]]. That said, they certainly can be used to describe Soviet POV, as long as it is clearly noted in the article for what it is.--_{<span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">[[User:Piotrus|&nbsp;Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&nbsp;]]|[[User_talk:Piotrus|<font style="color:#7CFC00;background:#006400;">&nbsp;talk&nbsp;</font>]]</span>} 19:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

*[[Peter Cetera]] - [[bass guitar|bass]], [[vocals]]

:: I agree with Piotrus. Soviet history sources are not reliable, but they can stay in the article - but their unreliability should be pointed out. As for the pictures - without proper explanation, they represent POV view - that Estonia voluntarily joined Soviet Union. My comment to the first picture was sourced and correct, to the second, it should be added that participating in those marches was not voluntary. [[User:Sander_S%C3%A4de|<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype; color:gray;font-size:15px">Sander&nbsp;Säde</span>]] 20:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

*[[Terry Kath]] - [[guitar]], vocals

Thanks [[User:Petri_Krohn]] for making it clear that you're not interested in a discussion for finding a consensus but are just after your own agenda. Calling lets say [[Katyn massacre]] during the Soviet [[invasion of Poland]] "very little hostilities" explained it all. Since you have shown a pattern of similar disruptive edits driven by a political agenda also elsewhere, I'm calling for all editors ASAP to revert any edits done my [[User:Petri_Krohn]] here until he/she comes to respect a policy that's called Consensus.--[[User:Termer|Termer]] 04:43, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

*[[Robert Lamm]] - [[keyboard instrument|keyboard]], vocals

*[[Lee Loughnane]] - [[trumpet]], vocals

*[[James Pankow]] - [[trombone]]

*[[Walter Parazaider]] - [[woodwinds]], vocals

*[[Danny Seraphine]] - [[drums]]

Hi [[User:Sander_S%C3%A4de|<span style="font-family:Palatino Linotype; color:gray;font-size:15px">Sander&nbsp;Säde</span>]]. I personally don't share your concerns regarding the “POV that Estonia voluntarily joined the Soviet Union”. Since such a POV can only be common to rapists that could claim the victim has asked for it. It's very common that it happens in rape cases in general so such a POV shouldn't surprise anybody. It would be against common sense though to suggest that a sovereign country that had fought a war against it's former master just about 20 years ago, would ask for getting rid of its sovereignty in benefit to the historical oppressor. Therefore please lets leave any bystanders an ability to make the judgments if needed. I think those staged images from the era under the discussion can be tolerated in case none of the political comments are used as an addition. --[[User:Termer|Termer]] 08:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

{{Chicagoband}}

[[Category:Chicago albums]]

[[Category:1971 albums]]

[[Category:Double albums]]