Talk:International Socialist Organization and Talk:Pomegranate: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 11:19, 12 July 2007

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== expulsion ==

{{WikiProject Plants|class=GA|importance=High}}

The ISO got expelled from the IST (International Socialist Tendency) a couple of years ago due to a dispute over the war in Kosovo. The details, internal documents etc were put on line at the time. [[User:Secretlondon|Secretlondon]] 10:29, Nov 3, 2003 (UTC)

{{WikiProject Food and drink|class=GA|importance=mid}}

{{WPTIR|class=high}}

== Lythraceae or Punicaceae ==

The ISO was expelled from the IST due to a turf war with theSWP/UK. But the actual dispute that led to the expulsion was over the ISO's attitude to anti-globalisation with reference to Seattle. I have the internal documents from an SWP NCer.

Dear Author of the article on Pomegranate

Jock Haston

The Wikipedia article on ''Punica granatum'' mentions recent evidence due to which ''Punica granatum'' has been reverted to Lythraceae from its original family Punicaceae. It will help if this recent evidence could beeither cited or a specific reference or authority for the same is also given. To my understanding, Punicaceae family has been a long recognized taxonomic entity with aspecial status that it is a monogeneric family in having just a single Genus, ''Punica''.

== This is a rather anti-ISO entry ==

I am interested in pomegranates as a subject of study for biodiversity and biosystematics aspects, and I will greatly appreciate any inputs on these aspects of pomegranates. Hence this query as above about reference for the "genetic evidence" that was mentioned.

This entry on the ISO isn't very subjective. It sounds a lot like someone formerly affliated with (and embittered by) the International Socialist Organization wrote this piece.

Shirish A. Ranade,

It seems to imply that the ISO has grown to its present size by initiating splits in other left-wing organizations. That doesn't seem like a very viable strategy for growing to 1000 members, clearly the ISO is doing something right for so many people to join it.

Scientist, NBRI, Lucknow 226001. India (E-mail: removed) <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:194.94.136.34|194.94.136.34]] ([[User talk:194.94.136.34|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/194.94.136.34|contribs]]) 09:09, 28 July 2005 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

:I've added some referenced material to articles [[Punica]] and [[Lythraceae]]. I think the references discuss the specific evidence used. [[User:Melchoir|Melchoir]] 19:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The author of this entry should go back and reconsider if perhaps their criticisms aren't somewhat unfairly biased for personal reasons.

== chinese apple? ==

----

The original text was copied from the old Red Encyclopedia. The original author, John Metz, is a member of the Socialist Party USA. He no longer maintains the Red Encyclopedia so the information was out of date. When I first started this article (there wasn't one present at all) I did leave a comment saying that it needed a lot of work.

Dont some people refer to this fruit as a chinese apple? I know arizona sells pomegranate tea and under pomegranate it says "chinese apple" <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:Krappie|Krappie]] ([[User talk:Krappie|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Krappie|contribs]]) 08:42, 18 September 2005 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

[[User:SonofRage|SonofRage]]

:Yep, my Italian side of the family in Brooklyn all calls them chinese apples too. They have no idea why. {{unsigned2|13:32, 7 October 2005|199.43.32.86}}

== ISO comments ==

:I have heard them refered to as persian apples also. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:67.83.48.21|67.83.48.21]] ([[User talk:67.83.48.21|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/67.83.48.21|contribs]]) 02:09, 7 November 2005 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

The ISO struggles with internal democracy like ALL organizations (unless they just give up and are fine with hierarchy). Former members have animosity proportional to thier commitment to the ISO. As membership is very time consuming, this often leads to angry breaks. But in all, they are trying to get the balence between "democratic" and "centralism" right. And as the largest group of revolutionary socialists in the US, they play an important role in shifting the frame of debate to the left. We'll see if thier size and influence can increase enough to have a real impact.

== Recent ChangesGranada ==

hmm, the recent changes have taken out a lot of the history.

I'm a bit doubtful of the assertion that Granada was named after the fruit. Pomegranates are called "Rumman" in Arabic. If it was named after the fruit, it would be called Rummana not Ghurnata (Granada's arabic name).

[[User:SonofRage|SonofRage]]

[[User:HiJazzey|HiJazzey]] 11:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

:Well, "granada" is the word for pomegranate in Spanish. Maybe that should be clarified in the article. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:12.217.230.106|12.217.230.106]] ([[User talk:12.217.230.106|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/12.217.230.106|contribs]]) 16:40, 18 September 2005 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

I just rewrote the entire entry for accuracy and NPOV but the old entry still shows up. Is there a problem withthe wiki?

''Granada'' is the name of the fruit in Spanish and the pomegranate is on the heraldic shield of the city according to the [[Granada]] article in the Wikipedia. But the name of the city in Arabic given there is (Arabic غرناطة Ġarnāṭah). I think the belief that the city comes from the name of the fruit is probably a [[Folk etymology]]. Curiously, there is one for another city in Spain, Leon, which is commonly believed to come from the identical Spanish word for Lion, but in fact comes from Legionis, or legion, as in Roman legion. If I was 100% sure, I'd edit it out myself, but if someone has a source for the Arabic name, please do so. I suspect it's probably in Corominas Spanish etymological dictionary, but I can't be sure, and don't have access to it at the moment. mnewmanqc {{unsigned2|16:59, 18 September 2005|Mnewmanqc}}

Jock Haston

I do not know if this is relevant, but the hebrew word for pomegranate, pronounced Ree-Moan (emphasis on the moan) also means grenade. {{unsigned2|04:15, 20 September 2005|71.106.110.148}}

== someone just added a whole lot of anti-ISO material; reverted ==

==Roma?==

64.252.73.225 has added a whole lot of blatantly NPOV statements to the article:

"In Portuguese, its name is romã, from Latin (mala) romana, meaning roman (apple)." Arabic ''rummân'' sounds like a far more plausible source. Anyone have a reliable Portuguese etymological dictionary? - [[User:Mustafaa|Mustafaa]] 17:29, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

"With their authoritarian tendencies, attacks on anarchism and anarchists, historical revisionism on radical labor politics, cult-like recruiting tactics, and bizarre social manipulations of groups, many anarchists have asked the $60,000 question: are these folks paid, and who pays them?"

"In the left, all one has to do is follow the money, to see who controls the politics. More research will reveal specifics on the relationship between the ISO and the Center's stock "trust fund". These "trustifarians" simply wear a blue collar."

The Romans called it Punicum malum, i.e., Carthaginian apple, because they received it from Carthage.

This paragraph:

:Work with other political tendencies has not always been harmonious. The organization is controversial in some circles, primarily for its practices in coalition work. Critics have charged that the ISO frequently latches on to more popular causes, such as the anti-war movement, as a way to recruit members, and sometimes attempts to take over related organizations at both the national and local level. It has been accused of recruiting and exploiting naive college students.

== Folk Etymology ==

Became this:

:Work with other political tendencies has not always been harmonious. The organization is controversial in some circles, utterly obnoxious in others, primarily for its manipulative and dishonest practices in coalition work. ISO tactics involve latching on to more popular causes, such as the anti-war movement, as a way to recruit members, and attempting to take over related organizations at both the national and local level. These activities are usually directed and coached by the organization's paid leadership in Chicago, IL. The ISO has been accused of recruiting and exploiting naive college students. Most though, however naive, soon leave the organization and often, activism altogether due to the almost cult-like environment of the organization.

The derivation of "pommie" from "pomegranate" is [[Folk etymology]]. The OED has "pommie" as "derivation unknown". [[User:Mikeplokta|Mikeplokta]] 18:58, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Etc...

== deciduous/delicious ==

Worst, <b>the links to the websites of the magazine, newspaper, etc, were replaced by links to an anarchist critique thereof</b>. I can't see that as anything other than vandalism.

while the pomegranate may be delicious, the word at the beginning of the article was deciduous. this was not a typo.--[[User:Alhutch|Alhutch]] 15:29, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

== Recent changes to 'Greek Mythology' Section ==

edit: decided this is sufficient to just revert it back to before the arrival of 64.252.73.225. If you want to include some of those criticisms, go ahead, but do it in [[NPOV]] terms.

This is my first edit to a Wikipedia entry and since I really don't want to step on anybody's toes, here's what revisions I've made and my reasoning behind them.

== changed order ==

Removed comment about the Isis/Osiris myth. No relationship to pomegranates shown

I changed the order of "activities" and "criticism" to be more in line with most of the other organizational entries I've seen. It seemed strange to have criticisms before activities. The activities section is also a bit paltry; it would be good to have more info here if possible.

Removed statement about Mycenaean goddess and her relationship to the Persephone myth because statement is too subjective; should be cited

== Odd change ==

Someone anonymous made an odd little change to this talk page, removing a mention of John Metz; I've rv'ed it. [[User:Rafaelgr|Rafaelgr]] 21:27, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed Redundancy about the origins and cultivation of pomegranates and unrelated statement about Ishtar/Cybele

After that, noticed some snide comments added in various sections by an anonymous user; I am removing them. Please try to come up with something useful to say next time.

I'm also expanding on the ISO's international relations, something I'd been meaning to do for a while.[[User:Rafaelgr|Rafaelgr]] 22:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Fixed improper capitalization of the word ‘goddess’

== United Front ==

I find the recent change adding "vanguard cadres" to be unclear or misleading. First, because "vanguard cadres" is not a phrase I've ever heard before; I know what the two words mean and I understand what the author is going for, but I think it's a strange formulation. Second, because the concept of the united front already encompasses this. I am going to try instead adding a half-sentence to specify what the United Front is. [[User:Catsv|Catsv]] 17:45, 13 January 2006 (UTC)catsv

:Okay, I took a stab at it, not sure it's the best explanation of united front... someone else can try! [[User:Catsv|Catsv]] 17:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)catsv

Rearranged a few sentences to keep information about different myths together

== Revolutionary socialist v. Trotskyist ==

71.246.91.63, what do you think is the largest revolutionary socialist organization in the U.S.? I understand that revolutionary socialist and Trotskyist are certainly not synonymous; my understanding was that the ISO was the largest of both in the U.S. Is this incorrect? [[User:Catsv|Catsv]] 20:09, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

:I'm with Catsv here, though I'm making no changes because revert wars are bad. Of course there are non-Trotskyist revolutionary socialist organizations; are any of them currently existing in the United States larger than the ISO? Not that I know of, and unless someone can name one, the description is accurate and should stay. "It is inappropriate for the ISO to describe itself as..." doesn't cut it as an explanation. I suppose it's possible that the argument is that the ISO isn't revolutionary at all, but reformist. Without getting into the factual dispute, there, I think in general we should defer to self-description regarding membership in political categories, absent very compelling reason not to do so. [[User:DKalkin|DKalkin]] 1/18/06

::"Revolutionary Socialist" has no definate meaning. It is used by groups like the American ISO and the UK SWP to distance themselves from Stalinism but also from reformism. Other groups also refer to themselves as revolutionary socialist, some of them belive that the term should not apply to Trotskyists (whether orthodox or not). However, I see know reason why the ISO don't have as much right as any of the other groups to be described as revolutionary socialist. The other issule is whether they are the biggist Revolutionary Socialist group, I don't know about this. Even if we take RevoSol in its widest sence is there a larger group?--[[User:JK the unwise|JK the unwise]] 10:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I think it's pretty clear that at least in the last decade or so ISO has been the largest in the US, with somewhere over a thousand members. At minimum, this is the consensus on the Marxmail[www.marxmail.org] list. [[Solidarity (US)]] would be next, with several hundred. After that you get into the low hundreds, with the Maoist groups and orthodox Trotskyists. The [[Communist Party (USA)]] is the only other contender I can think of, which is a hard-to-compare case. The Wikipedia article claims they have 5000-odd members, but I don't think that means quite the same thing as being a member of a cadre organization. I also don't know whether you'd still call them revolutionary - their website still uses the term, but without much explanation, and they vote for Democrats. [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]]

Used this quote “In her hand she may bear the pomegranate, emblem of fertile blood and death and a substitute for the narcotic capsule of the opium poppy (Ruck and Staples 1994).” From the Hera entry to replace “According to mythographers Carl A.P. Ruck and Danny Staples, the chambered pomegranate is also a surrogate for the poppy's [[opium|narcotic capsule]], with its comparable shape and chambered interior.”

::::Given that the ISO implicitly considers Trotskyism to ''be'' "revolutionary socialism," I believe it's much more appropriate to say that they are the largest and most active ''Trotskyist'' group in the United States (which is indisputably true), rather than that they are the largest ''revolutionary socialist'' group in the United States (which may, but also may not, be true).

Removed a few "peacock terms"

::::As an aside, Maoist groups and [[anti-revisionist]] groups, at least in the U.S., don't usually ID themselves as "socialist" or "revolutionary socialist", at least not in speech. They self-ID as [[communist]] and "revolutionary communist". But that is a minor point that is irrelevant to this conversation. [[User:71.246.67.218|71.246.67.218]] 20:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved comment about Mary out of the ‘Greek Mythology’ section

::::I'd say ISO self-calls themselves "Trotskyists", although I'm far from 100% sure [[User:Drunken Pirate|Drunken Pirate]] 04:36, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:::The ISO refers to itself as "revolutionary socialist" much more often than it uses the term "Trotskyist", though I think it believes the latter applies too. 71.246.67.218 was talking about Maoists and orthodox Trotskyists.

:::Coming back from the aside, I'm not sure the ISO considers Trotskyism to ''be'' "revolutionary socialism." "The Real Marxist Tradition," yes - that would be even more specific, Cliffism. But I think Maoism, or say council communism, while outside "the real Marxist tradition" would still be "revolutionary socialist" for the ISO. Regardless, I'm not sure why the ISO's allegedly sectarian definitions are relevant to the apparent fact that it's the largest "revolutionary socialist" organization by a ''more widely accepted'' definition. [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 04:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed statements about “Mother Goddess” and “Triple Goddess” as they appear to reference the neo-pagan concept of Deity and not any particular Greek myth including pomegranates

::::Speaking as a member, the ISO does not really worry that much about the exact use of the term 'revolutionary socialist' (though I think if we did we probably would not include all Maoists, since they don't necessarily advocate anything we'd see as socialist); we'd rather know what a group of people is actually about than try to stick a label on it. If we go by "groups that call themselves revolutionary socialists and seem to take the description seriously, whatever they mean by it", I agree that the only other concievable contender in terms of size and influence is the CP, and that they probably don't qualify for the reasons Kalkin pointed out.

Overall, attempted to give the section a more appropriate tone for an encyclopedia. I felt that the orginal text had too much bias and too much information that should have been either removed or cited. (Anonymously contributed, 02:27, 13 November 2005, by [[User:24.247.68.200]].)

::::Incidentally, although more flamboyant Maoists refer to themselves as Revolutionary Communists, there are also groups like the [[Freedom Road Socialist Organization]] which tend to refer to themselves as Socialist or Revolutionary Socialist. I have been led to understand that FRSO members informally put that organizations's membership at 2-300 though official numbers are sometimes higher. [[User:Rafaelgr|Rafaelgr]] 18:52, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:It's still a bit muddled. I espedially don't understand this sentence:

== added meeting and member sections ==

::''Indeed, in the Orion story we hear that Hera cast pomegranate-Side into dim Erebus — "for daring to rival Hera's beauty", which forms the probable point of connection with the older Osiris/Isis story. ''

:"cast pomegranate-Side into" should that be "pomegranate seed"? [[User:Michaelkvance|MKV]] 02:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

:"The Titan Orion was represented as "marrying" Side, a name that in Boeotia means "pomegranate", thus consecrating the primal hunter to the Goddess." That sentence comes earlier in the paragraph. The "probable point of connection with the older Osiris/Isis story" is simply a bridge to text that immediately follows. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 07:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Made a members and meetings section, sorry, should have marked edit as major. Not sure if there is a template for this kind of addtion. [[User:Drunken Pirate|Drunken Pirate]] 00:16, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

==Edits==

== criticism section ==

*Pomegranate is a shrub, not a species of shrub. The species is ''Punica''.

*Removed "

The fruit is typically in season from September to November in the Northern Hemisphere, or March to May in the Southern Hemisphere." Pointless local boosterism, unless some factual statement can be offered.

*etymology: ''pomum'' + ''granatum'' = "seed-apple" not "grainy". I also shifted a sentence for continuity of thought.

*In China: added possibility of the [[Silk Road]]; dropped unnecessary "assuming the pomegranate was not native to the Pacific coast"

*So America: whyu the missionaries particularly? "during the [[1700]]-[[1800]]'s" is oddly late (a random guess?)

*" As far as pomegranate extracts go, however, it may be advisable to stick with ingredients standardized to native constituents, as these are absorbed into the body, and have benefits backed by clinical research." Removed: Wikipedia does not give medical advice.

*Symbolism: I have eliminated the introduced sub-sections artificially dividing Hebrew and Greek

*Persephone: the "six months" are a deeply founded error, but apparently they can't be stopped. The Greek year was divided in three seasons. Oh well....

The rest are Englishing and requests for sources. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 02:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

==Other mythology==

I don't want to get in an edit war, especially with someone whose motives I'm probably sympathetic to, so I'm not restoring the previous criticism section. However, I strongly disagree with the removal of this sentence by 69.86.137.220 on 19:22, 2 February 2006: ''Some critics have charged that the ISO "latches on" to more popular causes, such as the anti-war or Green movements, as a way to recruit members, who are then indoctrinated to a specific and uniform party line in a "cult-like" manner.'' While the accusations are fairly silly, they're quite common among some sections of the left, as evidence by how many times something like this has been added to this article, usually at greater length and without any attempt at NPOV. Their existence should be recorded. Without this (still fairly minimal) explanation, the point that the ISO has been criticized "sometimes for its aggressive efforts to build its own organization within broader coalitions" is pretty much impossible to interpret. [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 00:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

This is a total cop-out on my part, but I would recommend including more on the pomegranate in Persian and Indian culture and mythology/symbolism/religion (as opposed to the presently unbalanced examples from the occidental traditions). I know I've come across the pomegranate many, many times but have nothing to cite at this moment off the top of my head. Just a suggestion if anyone's interested (and if not I hope I remember this article the next time I come across a specific verse of scripture, etc.). One thing I can direct the reader's kindly attention to, is the Pakistani version of the ill-fated lovers (''e.g.'' Romeo and Juliette, Tristan and Iseult, Layla wa Majnun, etc.): the legend of [[Anarkali]]. [[User:Khirad|Khirad]] 23:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:Sounds good idea to me. The "Pomegranates and symbolism" is a good section but it is very heavily weighted towards the Ancient Greeks. [[User:Nunquam Dormio|Nunquam Dormio]] 09:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

== reverting to trotskyist again ==

:One-sided articles are always improved with ''additions''. But the subject is ''pomegranate'',. --[[User:Wetman|Wetman]] 08:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I reverted to the "Trotskyist" designation again because it is indisputable that the ISO is the "largest and most active" TROTSKYIST organization in the United States, but it is NOT indisputable that the ISO is the "largest and most active" REVOLUTIONARY SOCIALIST organization in the United States. [[User:71.255.214.234|71.255.214.234]] 22:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

== Basis of edit changesEstrogen? ==

The pomegranate seeds are reputed to be high in estrone content (see the Greenbush page/http://www.greenbush.net/morthanyouev.html).

I have not been able to confirm that claim. Any input? <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:4.228.228.134|4.228.228.134]] ([[User talk:4.228.228.134|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/4.228.228.134|contribs]]) 05:47, 19 November 2004 (UTC{{{3|}}})</small>

I saw a post somewhere that said pomogranate was high in plant estrogens. Anyone know anything about this? --[[User:Gbleem|Gbleem]] 19:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted 'Trotskyist' to revolutionary socialist for three reasons.

== Cancer citation ==

First, the latter fits the self-description of the organization-- it is what members call themselves, and it is repeated in "Where We Stand" , the ISO's basic programmatic statement.

The citations for #5 on references should be changed to the actual scientific studies, and not the media reports on those studies.

Two, there is no dispute on the radical left that the ISO is the biggest organization advocating revolutionary socialism. Also, referring back to the US SWP's history in an entry on the ISO, as has been done a number of times, is interesting but not worthy of being the second sentence of an entry on an entirely different organization.

thanks

:I've separated and improved these refs: they're now #5 and #6. Haven't got the time to follow to the source. [[User:Nunquam Dormio|Nunquam Dormio]] 08:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Lastly, the reason why the ISO fits the designation "revolutionary socialist" and not "Trotskyist" is that a major part of the basis of the group's raison d'etre is a critique of Trotsky's formulations at the end of his life concerning the class nature of the USSR, the Transitional Program, etc.

== Mistaken Revert ==

In addition, I have eliminated the references to "cult-like" in the criticisms section. To say that one has heard others call the ISO "cult like" is not sufficient rationale to include it. It functions as a cheap unsubstantiated smear, not critique.

Whoops, reverted the wrong way, somehow got my diffs messed up. Thanks to the person who fixed my mistaken fix :). [[User:Michaelkvance|MKV]] 01:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

== number of seeds Persephone ate... ==

Likewise, I have eliminated an email link supposedly detailing the ISO's financial status. The information cited in this "Anarchist FAQ" do not substantiate its sources and makes totally speculative claims about the financial basis of the organization.

I always thought that Persephone ate SEVEN pomegranate seeds... The association between 6 seeds and 6 months seems to be an ethnic myth. Greek growing seasons are not the same as nothern Europe. High summer is seens as a dead season where nothing grows. This was when Persephone spent her time with Pluton in Hades.

== RegardingQuestion newabout anti-ISO linkssymbolism ==

I read on the Italian wiki at http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna_del_parto_(Piero_della_Francesca) (sorry, in Italian only, there's no cross-link...) that the pomegranate is also a symbol for the Passion of Christ. Can anyone confirm? If so, can anyone update the section? I'm no native English-speaker...

It's incredibly disgusting how much investigative reporting there is going on into socialist organizations or just left organizations that want to change the world for the better and not used to expose the corporations, the police, the twin parties of capitalism, etc.

== Pomegranate Juice May Clear Clogged Arteries ==

This left cannibalism will lead to nothing but finger pointing and will lead to the further disintergration of not only the revolutionary left but the left that identifies with the politcs to the left of the democratic party.

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/102/106690.htm [[User:Crocoite|Crocoite]] 22:40, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

AAHHHH!!

== Tree ==

Anyone else having trouble seeing the picture of the pomegranate tree in the cultivation section? No matter what I do I can't seem to view it, even out of the Pomegranate page. [[User:WLU|WLU]] 17:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

== Erased new "criticisms" ===

== Categories ==

I erased some new speculative comments in the criticism section about the "overwhelmingly white racial make-up of the group" and other speculative charges about the lack of democracy, etc. Given that all leadership positions in the group are elected and immediately recallable, the poster would need to offer some proof to back up this charge. Please justify critique and read wikipedia's section on POV carefully.

In my opinion, some of the following categories recently added are a bit much - the article is about pomegranates in general, not specifically their use in religious services. I'd like others opinions on the following:

== ISO white? undemocractic? ==

*Category:Christian liturgy, rites, and worship services '''remove'''

*Category:Eastern Orthodoxy '''remove'''

*Category:Death customs '''remove'''

*Category:Religious objects '''keep'''

White?

What do others think? All this aside, I can't say I'm familiar enough with categories yet to be 100% certain. [[User:WLU|WLU]] 16:30, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I would love the ISO come out with stats of its member composition. Or better yet, just go to their summer conference and you will be floored by the overwhelming number of white people - of course some non-whites here and there.

Undemocractic?

Why are some of the people on the steering committee still on there for years and years? This I find undemocractic. {{unsigned|162.84.167.89}}

== criticism ==

The existence of criticisms in notable forums, not the validity of those criticisms, is the criterion for including them. See [[WP:NPOV]]:

:''Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better. One can think of unbiased writing as the cold, fair, analytical description of debates. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected the article needs to be fixed.''

:''We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by only a small minority of people deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. If we are to represent the dispute fairly, we should present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties.''

:''Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band", we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. It's important to note this formulation is substantially different from the "some people believe ..." formulation popular in political debates. The reference requires an identifiable and subjectively quantifiable population or, better still, a name.''

[[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 23:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

== Deletes ==

Kalkin, I have erased your "criticisms" because they lack evidence. Can you prove that the racial composition of the ISO is "whiter" than the general population? What informs your assertion that ISO leadership structures are "rigid" when ALL positions of leadership in the organization are 1>Elected and 2.Instantly recallable.

We can have a revert fight about this, but I will win because I can PROVE that the structures of the ISO's leadership are eminently democratic. Now, you may argue that the culture of the ISO is undemocratic or authoritarian, and perhaps try to back that up. Otherwise you are just vandalizing. {{unsigned|128.59.154.137}}

:I didn't add that criticism or make the comment on the talk page above that you're apparently responding to. I sign my contributions. I've marked the comment above as unsigned by an anon IP, as well as yours. Use four tildes in a row to sign with time and date.

:I've just expanded the criticism section a great deal, sourcing each attack and adding sourced responses. However the charge that the ISO is white is one that I removed, because it's clearly false and more importantly, it's not made in the available criticisms online.

:I don't want to engage in a revert war, and in fact I don't believe the ISO is undemocratic. I do believe that the criticism should be included, because it's made all the time and can be sourced, along with a response (as it so happens, the very response you make, although I hadn't read your comment when I inserted it).

:I've moved the critical ''External links'' to ''Notes'' because I used them to source criticisms. [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 22:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

== todd chretien ==

I'm not sure why this is a seperate section. It's very short and seems like it ought to go under ''Activities''. Anyone have a reason otherwise? [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 22:23, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

:No dispute. I'll do it. [[User:DKalkin|Kalkin]] 01:07, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

== Edited criticisms section ==

I edited the criticisms section. Simply put, the length of the criticisms section was excessive-- longer than any of the other sections actually describing the history and politics of the ISO!!! The idea that one disputed incident of redbaiting at SFSU should be in a Wikipedia article about the ISO is ridiculous. Same goes for the "criticisms" of every Democratic Party supporter (John Lacny) who once was a member. The updated "criticism" section was the work of someone with a serious ax to grind, so it was edited.

I will happy to have a revert fight with Kalkin or anyone else about this (I'm on the computer all the time) about this, it's absurd to turn a Wikipedia article into a come-one-come-all opportunity to slander the ISO.

It's not happening.

== Criticism section cancelled ==

Alright, I've had it. Someone who really hates the ISO has thrown up a whole mish-mash of unfounded attacks on the group with more unsubstantiantiated charges of "authoritarianism" and lots of links to infoshop.org (a website controlled entirely by ONE ANARCHIST) and Democratic Party supporter John Lacny's article 'The Joy of Sects'.

I'm getting rid of the whole section. Come up with a fair one. This is a wikipedia article about the ISO, not about what two or three people on the internet think about the ISO. I will keep erasing this nonsense.

== ISO article edits ==

Ryan:

The idea that one disputed incident of redbaiting at SFSU should be in a Wikipedia article about the ISO is ridiculous.

Dave: I guess this is true, it is a highly specific incident. How would one go about adding something about the hundreds of documented first hand accounts of this type of behavior on the part of the ISO? I'm new here, so I can definitely accept the removal of everything if criticisms are not part of this encyclopedia format. But is it possible to leave some criticism?

Oh, so you know, I am the guy who wrote "ISOnuts", a link you deleted. I didn't post it here though, I think the html trail would show that? Nor did I tell anyone to. I found it was on wiki on a websearch.

Ryan:

Same goes for the "criticisms" of every Democratic Party supporter (John Lacny) who once was a member. The updated "criticism" section was the work of someone with a serious ax to grind, so it was edited.

Dave: You say "every democratic party supporter" and then give one example.Also, does being a supporter of Democrats invalidate his analysis? That seems like a logical fallacy to me.

I'm not a democrat. I've never been a member of ISO. I added those links as I thought they represented many primary source accounts of dealing with the ISO, and that maybe they balanced the other links, which include some positive views. Again, if this is not appropriate for this format I can totally accept the edit. I just find your justifications to be confusing, Wikipedia rules aside, which is why I'm responding to what you wrote, not calling for the sections to be put back in.

Ryan:

I will happy to have a revert fight with Kalkin or anyone else about this (I'm on the computer all the time) about this, it's absurd to turn a Wikipedia article into a come-one-come-all opportunity to slander the ISO. It's not happening.

Dave: I don't see a need to fight. Kalkin is a member of the ISO so maybe you are misinterpreting here. He told me at his discussion page. Since that is publicly viewable I guess he's not trying to keep that a secret. I suppose he could be lying, but it didn't seem like it. It wasn't Kalkin's doing just so you know, although he did reformat some of what were mostly my adds.

Criticism section cancelled

Ryan:

Alright, I've had it. Someone who really hates the ISO has thrown up a whole mish-mash of unfounded attacks on the group with more unsubstantiantiated charges of "authoritarianism"

Dave: Are first hand accounts considered unsubstantiated? Also, is someone's opinion of the ISO the proper indicator of whether the links were relevant? I added them because I thought the content added some balance, and a view at a broader interpretation, mostly from the political Left. I guess I had a different view as a historian of what sources may be useful to a reader. Also many of the articles you deleted contained direct quotes from ISO member's own writing. Certainly their existence on the websites with their handles and so on substantiates these things were said. But I don't want to be a jerk. Probably what I should be doing is asking if there is any place on wikipedia for such information. For example, maybe an article on anti-authoritarianism? I don't know. It probably exists already and I have not yet searched. I was hoping you might have some advice on where criticisms could go, if at all. I understand this is not a debate site, but it seems that criticism can count as a subject of its own.

Ryan:

and lots of links to infoshop.org (a website controlled entirely by ONE ANARCHIST) and Democratic Party supporter John Lacny's article 'The Joy of Sects'.

Dave: I have seen stuff censored on infoshop, including a pro-ISO response to my article that I would have liked to have seen! But I don't think the fact that a site has one owner/moderator whatever the proper term is, should disqualify it as a source if the material cited represents somethin relevant. I'm not sure why you put Anarchist in caps. Does it carry a negative connotation, or are you just capping it because most anarchists are heavily anti-ISO?

Perhaps the ISO article is not a two sided article. But could it be? I'm honestly asking because I don't know. You seem to indicate below you would accept a rewritten criticism section.

Ryan:

I'm getting rid of the whole section. Come up with a fair one. This is a wikipedia article about the ISO, not about what two or three people on the internet think about the ISO. I will keep erasing this nonsense.

Dave: I hope this doesn't come off as rude, but I respectfully disagree with your assessment that the links represented the views of two or three people on the internet. The infoshop links contained complaints that poured in from activists accross the country, and the SAW site links, which ended up at infoshop contain the political views of ISO members and non-ISO members who had been labelled McCarthyites. It seems very relevant to understanding but maybe there could be a page on the criticism of the ISO? Arguments and counterarguments? I don't know. I may be misinterpreting this site by thinking it exists to inform broadly, when in fact it is more of a referrence. I may be wording that wrong. It may sound dumb, I've used encyclopedias, but never tried to write for one. Also the Stephen Shalom link was a really interesting piece on the ISO view of the Iraqi resistance, as was one of the other articles. I guess I thought they were scholarly and relevant, but again I probably missed the point of what I thought was a two sided article.

After I saw the deletions,what I did was go to check the article on the American Nazi Party, and there was no criticism section so I assume this is the norm for articles on organizations. If it is consistent I'm fine with it.

Thanks for reading this,

[[User:Motopu|Motopu]] 03:48, 26 February 2006 (UTC)