|
:''For the TV show named for the character, see [[Danny Phantom]].''
== Past discussion ==
{{Superherobox| <!--Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics-->
| image = [[Image:Publicenemiesgoingghostdanny.jpg]]
| caption =
| comic_color =background:#c0c0c0
| character_name = Daniel "Danny" Fenton <br> (Danny Phantom)
| real_name = Daniel "Danny" Fenton
| publisher = [[Nickelodeon (TV channel)|Nickelodeon]]
| debut = "[[Mystery Meat]]"
| age = 14
| creators = [[Butch Hartman]]
| alliance_color =background: #ffc0c0
| Enemies = [[The Lunch Lady Ghost]], [[The Box Ghost]], [[Skulker]], [[Ember McLain]], [[Nicolai Technus]], [[Desiree]], [[Vlad Plasmius]] (Vlad Masters), Walker, [[Penelope Spectra]], [[Fright Knight]], [[Freakshow]], [[Pariah Dark]], [[Dark Danny]]
| status = Active
| alliances = Team Phantom (Leader) Tucker Foley (Best Friend) Sam Manson (best friend/girlfriend) Jazz Fenton (Sister and confident) Danielle Phantom (Cousin/clone) Frostbite (Mentor) Skulker (Enemy/Reluctant Ally)
| previous_alliances =
| species = Human-Ghost Hybrid (Halfa)
| aliases = "''Inviso-Bill''"<br>"''Ghost Boy/Kid/Child''"<br>"''Phantom Kid''"<br>("''Fenton"'',"''Fenturd"'',"''Fentons o' Fun"'') to [[Dash Baxter]]<br>various [[nickname]]s and insults given to him by his enemies<br>The "''Halfa''"
| relatives = [[Jack and Maddie Fenton#Jack Fenton|Jack Fenton]] ([[Father]])<br>[[Jack and Maddie Fenton#Madeline "Maddie" Fenton|Madeline "''Maddie''" Fenton]] ([[Mother]])<br>Jasmine "''Jazz''" Fenton ([[sister]])<br>Alicia ([[Maternal]] [[aunt]])<br>Danielle "''Dani''" Fenton/Phantom (clone/"''cousin''"), Danny clones (clones, deceased)
| powers = Various ghost-related powers: such as flight, intangibility, invisibility, ectoplasmic energy beams and shields, and cryokinesis to name a few; (see [[Danny Phantom (character)#Danny's ghost powers|List of Danny's Ghostly Powers]]).
|}}
'''Danny Phantom''' the heroic ghostly alter-ego of '''Daniel "''Danny''" Fenton'''--a [[superhero]], the [[protagonist]] and [[titular character]] of the [[Nickelodeon (TV channel)|Nickelodeon]] [[animated]] [[television series]] ''[[Danny Phantom]]''. He is voiced by [[David Kaufman (actor)|David Kaufman]].
==History==
Read the discussion contained in the archives:
Living with his ghost-obsessed parents since his birth, Danny had to put up with their unique personalities that often tramautized him as well as constantly be forced to listen to their parents ramble or instruct their children on how their numerous Fenton gadgets worked. However, this did nothing to stop Danny's curiosity that one day changed his life forever. While in his parents' [[laboratory]], Danny Fenton had an accident involving the newly built "Fenton Portal" and his [[DNA#molecular structure|molecular structure]] was infused with [[Ectoplasm (parapsychology)]].
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 1|Talk Archive 1]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 2|Talk Archive 2]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 3|Talk Archive 3]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 4|Talk Archive 4]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 5|Talk Archive 5]]
* [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive 6|Talk Archive 6]] - "City" vs. "City, State" arguments
As a result Danny Fenton becomes a half-human, half-ghost hybrid; he styles himself as a new persona as Danny Phantom, an extraordinary spectral superhero with a ghostly host of other-worldy powers; able to shift between the forms his human-half and his ghost-half at will, coming into a number of various [[supernatural]]/[[paranormal]]/[[metaphysical]]/[[extraordinary]] abilities. Upon transformation, his normally black hair turns white, his eyes change from sky blue to ectoplasmic green, his skin changes from light to tanned, and his normal attire becomes a black [[Hazardous material|hazmat]] suit - with white boots, gloves, belt, and starting from the second season, a "'''''D'''''" emblem with an inner "'''''P'''''" on his chest, becoming ''"Danny Phantom"''.
* [[Talk:Durham]]
===Beginning Struggles===
==American cities inconsistent with every other country==
He made his first appearance in "Mystery Meat" where after having his powers for a full month, he struggled with either telling his parents or keeping it a secret. After a battle with the evil Lunch Lady, Danny decided in the end not to tell his folks and has started his long road of being a superhero to the people of Amity Park.
In "''[[Bitter Reunions]]''", Danny would meet [[Vlad Masters]] who would serve as his primary arch-nemesis throughout the series, possessing the same half-ghost powers he does, only 20 years more experienced.
The present [City, State] format makes major American cities
inconsistent with the articles on major cities everywhere else. For example major European and Australian cities tend to have the namespace all to themselves, for example [[Sydney]], [[Berlin]] etc.
For the majority of the earlier episodes, Danny Phantom wasn't particularly a well known ghost. However, his major comeuppance in the Amity Park's public eyes came in "''[[Public Enemies]]''" when Walker, a ghost cop, in a fit of revenge against Danny ambushed the entire city, going as far as possessing the mayor and making Danny Phantom the framed victim in all of it, causing the public to shun the ghost boy.
Also in the case of important American cities, I've noticed that for example [[Chicago]] re-directs to [[Chicago, Illinois]].
I've also noticed the same with other major US cities such as
[[San Francisco]], [[Boston]] etc.
To make matters worse, when Freakshow took control of Danny with his crystal ball staff in [[Control Freaks (Danny Phantom)|''"Control Freaks"'']], he forced him to lead a series of ghostly bank robberies. Since then, Danny has been consistently chased after by Amity Park's local authority, despite his intentions to still bring about good to the world with only his two friends and Jazz supporting him, as well as Paulina who fell in love with Danny's alter ego ghost half in "''[[Lucky in Love]]''" when he saved her.
What exactly is the point to this?, surely either "Chicago, Illinois"
should be moved to "Chicago" or "Chicago" should become a disambig, same applies to allt the other examples. I cant see any sense whatever to the present situation. [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 14:10, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In ''[[The Ultimate Enemy]]'' Danny gets his ghost half removed and he removes Vlad's Ghost half when the two ghost halves get mixed together forming [[Dark Danny]]. Danny turns over to the dark side and murders Danny Fenton. With no human emotions to stop him he causes damage on the earth and in the ghost zone.
:[City, State] disambiguates, is the common name for, and provides historical context for cities and towns in the US. Additionally, the vast majority of US city articles were created by [[User:Rambot]] from census data, and that census data was in the [City, State] standardized format.
===A Hero===
:The need for such a structure should become immediately apparent when one considers the city names [[Portland]], [[Springfield]], and [[Washington]], among others.
He managed to succeed in "''[[Reign Storm]]''" when he fought against [[Pariah Dark]] and managed to lock him back in his palace. The aftermath reveals Danny to now be in the good in the eyes of 64% of the townsfolks of Amity, causing the majority to see Danny Phantom as a hero. Since then, his existence and popularity has soared, many knowing who he is, some respecting and looking out for him, etc. Danny also confirms the whole town during this point knows his true name is "Danny Phantom" and not "Inviso-Bill". This also helps his standing in the Ghost Zone as he is now called by Frostbite "''The Great One''" and "''Savior of the Ghost Zone''" because of his actions.
Another important note is that in [[Urban Jungle (Danny Phantom)|"''Urban Jungle''"]], Danny stated that he was a duly-appointed deputy of Amity Park, meaning that he is now officially recognized as the town's protector. By the time of [[Forever Phantom]], Danny Phantom's popularity has achieved a level comparable to a rock star's, as he is constantly chased by mobs of adoring fans and the news media. In [[Phantom Planet (Danny Phantom)|Phantom Planet]] his identity is revealed to the world and statues of him holding up the world are used as thanks.
:Finally, it is worth noting that Canadian city articles are structured in the same [City, Province] format, for the same reasons as US cities. So don't blame it all on us - blame Canada too. :) - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 14:58, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===Alternate Paths===
Yes, G-Man, you are saying what I was saying for about two weeks a month ago. There was much dispute, and then everyone responding. I completely concur. But even worse than US cities are Japanese - check out [[Kyoto]] redirecting to [[Kyoto, Kyoto]] - that's just entirely ridiculous. As I've said before, and will say again, of course [City, State] should be used to disambiguate. But it's ridiculous to use it when it's not necessary to disambiguate, at least for major cities where it's clear which one somebody is referring to. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 16:01, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In "''[[The Ultimate Enemy]]''", Danny managed to witness an [[alternate future]] when, due to him cheating on the CAT (Career Aptitude Test), his family, friends, and Lancer all die through a Nasty Burger explosion. Orphaned, Danny moves in with Vlad, the only one who can understand his situation. With a great deal of sympathy for the boy, Vlad honored his wishes and removed his ghost half from his human self. As a result, Danny's ghost half went rogue and split Vlad's human half and merged with his ghost self, resulting in the birth of [[Dark Danny]]. After presumably killing his human self and blowing up Vlad's manor, he went on a ten-year world destruction tour. Danny does battle with his future self eventually and with the help of Clockwork, alters his future so that he can have a second chance to undo the damage he would have caused.
In "''[[Reality Trip]]"'', an encounter with Freakshow and his Reality Gauntlet resulted in him accidentally revealing his secret to the general public, causing wide storm news all over America and in mad pursuit by the [[Guys in White]]. While avoiding them, Danny and his friends managed to gather the Reality Gems, then ultimately stop Freakshow. Using the Reality Gauntlet afterwards, Danny alters everything back to the way it was once was, causing everyone but his friends, sister, Vlad Masters and some of his ghostly enemies to forget about his identity as Danny Phantom.
:The way US and Canadian cities are named is inconsistent with the general Wikipedia conventions. The inconsistency sticks out like a sore thumb. The insistence by a small minority that the use of {city}{state} is to be treated as a rule (in conflict with the general wikipedia convention that conventions are conventions and not rules) isn't professionalism, it's stubborness. Basing titles on common usage is a good convention. Naming ALL articles on US and Canadian cities a certain way, whether it's common usage or not, is ridiculous. As far as the assertion that {city}{state} is a systematic classification, I say "poppycock!". It may be systematic but it's a lousy classification, which is one reason the US Postal Service uses zip codes, and the Census Bureau uses census designated places. {City}{state} doesn't always mean the same thing. Many places have alternate postal addresses and, in many cases, common usage is that {city}{state} refers to a much larger area than just a single city (in some cases, it refers to dozens of cities). Some of the article titles for US cities aren't anywhere near common usage and they make Wikipedia look downright silly. The reason it's so difficult to see any sense in the current situation is that there really is no sense to it. As a convention, the current convention is not too bad; as a rule, it stinks. [[User:Bluelion|Bluelion]] 22:46, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===New Allies and Old Friends===
::Err, actually the census does use city, state. It only uses CDPs for areas where there is not an appropriate civil government to describe a populated area. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 23:16, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In [[Kindred Spirits (Danny Phantom)|''"Kindred Spirits"'']], Danny meets his "''third cousin once removed,''" Danielle a.k.a. [[Dani Phantom]] whom he later finds out is one of the many imperfect clones that Vlad has made, struggling to make the "''perfect half-ghost son''". He has sent Dani to fetch Danny to capture his mid-morph sample for the final processing. Danny managed to convince Dani that Vlad was only using her. Not believing at first, she figures it out by the time he yells at her harshly, causing her to team up with Danny and destroy his clone lab, including his perfect clone. Despite the fact she previously knocked him out before, twice in fact, Danny saved his "''cousin''" from Vlad when he attempted to kill her. With Vlad defeated, Dani flies off, vowing to meet again.
After getting lost in the Ghost Zone, Danny and co. encountered a Yeti-like ghost named "Frostbite", who leads a tribe of icy ghosts who idolized Danny as a [[god]] for defeating [[Pariah Dark]]. He later gained their help when he develops ice powers.
:The point is {city}{state} does not unambiguously identify a place. The census bureau uses it one way (and not in all cases), the post office uses it another way and, in common usage, it is used in yet another way. Why Wikipedia appears to be using the census bureau's way which, in many cases, is not at all like common usage, is beyond me. Following common usage according to the general Wikipedia convention would make a lot more sense and be a lot more consistent. In many cases, {city}{state} IS common usage in the US. The argument is just about the cases where it isn't common usage. There already was a vote on whether cities should be disambiguated whether they need to be or not, and unnecessary disambiguation lost by a much bigger margin that the 4 to 2 vote in favor of US and Canadian cities being treated differently than all other articles on Wikipedia. (actually, it's not entirely clear that that was what the 4-2 vote was even about) No case has been made for even having a special convention for some cities and not for others (where is the consistency in that??) and, certainly, '''no case has been made for treating it as a rule'''. (BTW, there are several articles that call places cities when they are not cities at all, but census designated places, a somewhat technical designation that is fairly far removed from common usage in some cases. Calling a census designated place a city is both wrong and confusing; the census bureau is very careful to make the distinction but Wikipedia's small band of {city}{state} classification police apparently isn't so careful) [[User:Bluelion|Bluelion]] 07:06, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In "''[[Claw of the Wild]]''", the Casper High students went camping for the summer; there the kids were kidnapped by beasts sent by Walker and his cops--at first to capture Wulf who coincidentally were in the same area as the campers--and eventually gain Danny's attention. Danny reunited with Wulf who once again had ran away from Walker and his men. With Sam and Wulf's help, Danny managed to save Tucker and his classmates, then declared to Wulf they are forever "''Amikos"'' before he runs--free once more.
::But we have a plan for when [city, state] doesn't unambiguously identify places - we insert the county name. (Examples: [[Springfield, Dane County, Wisconsin]], [[Springfield, Jackson County, Wisconsin]], [[Springfield, Marquette County, Wisconsin]], and [[Springfield, St. Croix County, Wisconsin]].)
In "''[[D-Stabilized]]"'', Dani Phantom had returned to Amity Park, seeking Danny to ask his help on stabilizing her. He found a way with a new Fenton creation named "''Ecto-Dejecto''", which was originally meant to destroy ghosts, but ended up making them stronger, increasing their ghostly status. Managing to convince a reluctant Valerie, she and Danny charge into Vlad's manor where Dani was currently being destabilized by Plasmius. He uses the Ecto-Dejecto on her, but it seemed to have no effect on her, causing her to fade away, leaving a saddened Danny. Luckily, Dani returns from her puddled mess, now fully stable. After defeating Vlad, she decides to venture, Danny asking her to be safe.
::We're using the Census Bureau's way because Rambot created 30,000+ articles from the Census Bureau's data, and because we have not yet reached consensus on how else to name things.
Because of his family's and the whole town's hatred of ghosts, Danny has told nobody except his friends [[Tucker Foley]] and [[Samantha "Sam" Manson|Sam Manson]] about his powers, and struggles to hide his ghost identity from his family: his parents Jack and Madeline "''Maddie''" Fenton and his sister Jasmine "''Jazz''" Fenton, although she realized that Danny was the half-ghost in the episode "''My Brother's Keeper''", and has since covered for him even after she told Danny that she knew of his secret identity in "''The Ultimate Enemy''". Some of his enemies have also figured out his secret identity and have tried to exploit it as Technus did in "''Flirting with Disaster''".
::And who on God's green Earth is arguing that [city, state] should be a ''rule''? In all of the text above, the word "rule" only shows up in phrases like "disambiguation rules" or "rule of thumb". (Go on, search it yourself.) Perhaps if you had been following the discussion with a more open mind, you would have noticed this. - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 12:00, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===A Bright Future===
"''We're using the Census Bureau's way because Rambot created 30,000+ articles from the Census Bureau's data, and because we have not yet reached consensus on how else to name things.''"
After Vlad ran for mayor in Danny's hometown of Amity Park, Danny had to frequently deal with him as well as new and old ghosts, now as the town's duly deputized protector. "''[[Phantom Planet (Danny Phantom)|Phantom Planet]]"'' gave him his ultimate task when upon meeting up with Vlad's Masters Blasters, Danny questioned his superhero business. Zapping himself in the Ghost Portal, he regained his humanity with his only shred of evidence as half ghost being a white streak on his hair. At the same time, a much bigger crisis--namely that of an Dis-Asteroid aims for Earth, timed to collide in a week's time destroying the entire planet.
Exactly. There is no consusus supporting current policy. The fact that 30,000 articles already exist is the main argument that is presented to support the current policy (and about all there really is to support it, because it sucks.)
"''And who on God's green Earth is arguing that [city, state] should be a rule?''"
Are you paying any attention? There are a couple of {city}{state} police who insist that the convention be treated as a rule. In all honesty, if it were treated as a convention and not a rule, I doubt there would be much objection to it. [[User:Bluelion|Bluelion]] 12:44, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
With renewed determination, Danny regained his powers through multiple blasts from ghosts, affecting his white streak which further expands throughout his body, reclaiming his half ghost status. Gaining every single human being on Earth's attention, he announces a plan to phase the entire planet - so the asteroid can pass through harmlessly. Gaining help from "''a bazillion ghosts''" after much convincing, humans and ghosts work side by side as they successfully save the world from disaster. With his secret identity revealed to the world, Danny is hailed as a hero all over Earth.
:::To Bluelion, can you point to any specific instances where the rambot-generated article based on the census mistakenly uses city to describe a CDP? For the articles that I have come across (mostly in Michigan) rambot very consistently identified the CPD articles as "towns", which at least in Michigan has no official standing (as an aside, wherever I encounter it i Michigan articles, I change "town" to "unincorporated community"). I'm not sure what rambot did in states where town does have an official usage.
His one goal is to be an [[astronaut]] when he grows up.
:::To Jredmond, although people may not use the term "rule", that is the practical reality. Any articles on U.S. cities that get moved from the city,state formulation get moved back fairly quickly. The current ___location of City of New York is an anomaly as the result of a protracted debate. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:49, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
==Personality/Weakness==
::::To Bkonrad: the bot seems to have ''consistently'' (and ''wrongly'') referred to CDPs as towns. I've corrected some articles (mainly for places in Maryland) where I've found them, but obviously I do not have the time to go trough tens of thousands of listings. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 15:38, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
Being a normal 14-year-old with '[[Eccentricity (behavior)|eccentric]]' Ghost-Hunters for parents, to becoming a half-human, half-ghost, teenaged superhero with ghost powers, has been one huge change that has occurred in Danny's life in the past few months...
Over time Danny has transformed himself into a more confident individual character with experience, though he is still susceptible to basic flaws of character. Danny Fenton is a [[Anxiety|nervous]], clumsy, and sometimes superficial 14-year-old boy who tries to fit in with his peers; even with him being as unique as he is, Danny has every reason to feel as [[Paranoia|paranoid]] as he does about keeping his ghost half a secret whenever possible, lacking much confidence at the beginning.
::::Before you go changing things to CDP, make sure that you know for sure that the locals living in that area refer to the place as a CDP. Also, make absolute sure the the data the census bureau provides also refers to it as a CDP (I assume you did this). As I say below, these things can be changed automatically, but I highly doubt that anyone but the census bureau calls places CDP, so why do we want articles about real places saying that they are a "CDP"? A "town" is a more generic usage of a real place in lieu of having someone who lives there change it to what it really is, if it is something different. BTW, this discussion would be more appropriate at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cities]] -- [[User:Ram-Man|Ram-Man]] 16:24, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
However, his paranoia has yet to do a thing about his boundless curiosity, which was the main reason why he got his ghost-powers to begin with. When his friends and family are in danger, Danny can become rather stubborn and overprotective, which does not bother his friends as much as his [[naïve]] nature.
:::::Ram-Man, please be aware that "town" has specific legal meanings in many states, and '''different''' ones in different States. [[Silver Spring, Maryland]] is '''by no means''' a town. In the article, I only used the term "census-designated place" once, but changed "town" to "area" or "community" everywhere else in the article. While you are '''absolutely correct''' in saying that it is unlikely that "anyone but the census bureau calls places CDP," it is '''also''' true that calling such places "town" is inaccurate. Perhaps you should have made it always "community" if you wanted "a more generic usage" and wanted to avoid the "technical" term CDP, but all the census data is specifically for the CDP. What '''local''' people call Silver Spring is probably not identical to the census bureau's Silver Spring CDP; and in particular the census bureau's Wheaton-Glenmont CDP exists '''only''' in census data; local people consider there to be '''two separate communities''' named Wheaton and Glenmont. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 18:35, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
In the end of the fight though, it is his loyalty to his cause, along with his faith in the love of his peers, and the love he gives back to others that helps him to overcome all obstacles. For instance, even when he is vilified by the public early in his career, his sense of civic duty is so strong that he felt that retiring was out of question; only when a rival ghostbuster team was both outclassing him and threatening his family did he decide to remove his powers. He has seen developed a more confident, mature attitude over the course of the show as he continues to develop his powers. He also has a great sense of humor and frequently makes jokes, puns and wisecracks.
::::::BRG, are you a fellow Montgomery County, Marylander? I grew up in the Census-designated place of "North Bethesda" I believe, although my post office has always been Kensington. Except that the town of Garrett Park is between the town of Kensington and our house. So, post office thing is deeply confusing. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 02:56, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
It is shown that although he is half-ghost, Danny is still affected by ecto-weapons as his primary weakness. He has also more than once overestimated his abilities or at times is often too naïve or cocky which usually results in a disadvantage during battle. Another weakness, as Technus pointed out in "Flirting with Disaster", is Danny's emotions. When Danny becomes depressed, disheartened, distracted, low on energy, depowered, unfocused or unprepared then his confidence, his [[self-esteem]] as well as his performance as a ghost hunter and a hero suffers and becomes poor.
:::::::I mentioned this in one of the other posts I made in the naming convention discussion. Yes, currently I live in Montgomery County, though I grew up in New York City. I've been in the DC metro area since 1974 or so, and in Montgomery County since 1984, though, so by now I'm really quite familiar with the local geography. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 14:32, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
In the episode ''[[Identity Crisis (Danny Phantom)|Identity Crisis]]'', Danny's human half and his ghost half were separated into two physically separate individuals by passing through the '''Fenton Ghost Catcher''', a device created by his parents to separate [[Ectoplasm (parapsychology)|ectoplasm]]ic energy from people, objects and places. Danny's personality was [[polarize]]d, resulting in the birth of the lazy human ''Danny Fenton,'' also known as "''Fun Danny''" with a [[passive]] personality, and the heroic ghost ''Danny Phantom,'' also known as "''Super Danny''" with a [[proactive]] attitude towards his ghost-fighting responsibilities. These two sides of Danny represent the two extreme ends of Danny's character; his selfish and selfless sides.
:::::I have made a note on the rambot's TODO list to update the CDP places with something even more generic, like community. When I get around to doing that we can think more about how it should be done. -- [[User:Ram-Man|Ram-Man]] 02:42, Jun 19, 2004 (UTC)
==Romance==
::::::Thanks. I've really been annoyed by the misuse of the term "town" on here, but don't have the time to fix thousands of articles. - [[User:BRG|BRG]] 14:32, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
Throughout the series, Danny has held a long standing crush on Paulina, the most popular girl at school. He was successful in asking her to the dance in "''[[Parental Bonding]]''", but only due to her trying to get Sam jealous and dating her in "''[[Lucky in Love]]''" only to find out she was overshadowed by [[Johnny 13]]'s girlfriend, Kitty. Ironically, Paulina has fallen in love with his ghostly alter ego. As the series progresses though, with his growing feelings for Sam and his romance with Valerie, he has seemingly been slowly losing interest in Paulina.
:::With regards to the rambot, before we get off on a tangent that does not need to be gone off on, since this is a complicated topic. Off hand I cannot remember whether or not I properly use CDP or converted it to another usage. In any case, this can be remedied by running the bot over the articles and replacing with the appropriate term. This is *not* hard to do, if it is indeed wrong. The place to raise such issues is on my [[User talk:Ram-Man|talk page]] or to add a note to the [[User:rambot|TODO list]]. Also, the idea that the only reason we want the City, State usage is because of rambot articles is silly. I would love to keep the convention for that reason, but no one is arguing for that reason except as a positive side effect of that particular "policy". We have a bunch of namings: "City", "City, State", "City, County, State", "City (type), State", and "City (type), County, State". The census bureau, the postal service, local governments, and local citizens all use their own separate naming. That's at LEAST four potentially different meanings. That makes things VERY hard to disambiguate or name, so there is never a "rule", but only a "convention". The postal service is the most unique (and "inaccurate") but it greatly affects "common usage" and group perception. Also non-cities such as neighborhoods of large cities and legal townships are frequently seen by real people as being de-facto cities and towns. The fact is that there is hardly such a thing as "common usage" in the U.S. We may be able to take a poll that says that a certain city is more important to other cities or that a certain "City" usage is more common than "City, State", but it really depends 100% on who you ask. In the end, there are hardly any names that are unique to one place. Even places like [[Albuquerque, New Mexico]] have unique names but still go by the "City, State" usage in common usage. All of this is the reason that U.S. cities have this "City, State" convention. I do no advocate that non-U.S. cities follow this, although they may if appropriate. The fact is that there are so few cities that are clearly unique, and we should have a convention of "City, State" and allow for various exceptions to the "rule", even if those allow for [[Chicago]] or [[New York City]] in cases where there is overwhelming approval. I argue that there is no such thing as "common usage", except in a very small number of cases, and thus we should just pick an arbitrary convention. -- [[User:Ram-Man|Ram-Man]] 16:19, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
He also develops a close relationship with another girl named [[Valerie Gray]] during "''Reign Storm''", despite the fact that she's often trying to kill Danny Phantom with her various anti-ghost weaponry. The two found common grounds in that episode, overlooking a long standing attitude towards one another beforehand. They dated briefly in [[Flirting with Disaster (Danny Phantom)|''"Flirting with Disaster"'']], before she broke up with him due to her current life as a ghost hunter. Heartbroken, Danny still continues to harbor romantic feelings for Valerie as of "''Double Cross My Heart''".
::::Except for your mis-usage of "town" in the bot-composed articles, I pretty much agree with all you've said in here. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 18:35, Jun 18, 2004 (UTC)
There have been a few hints, particularly in the first season, that Danny has romantic feelings for Sam, one of his best friends. However, as it became pretty obvious to mostly everyone else, except Danny, that Sam has a crush on him. Danny has been dubbed clueless, so his feelings for Sam have not yet been verified. However, as seen in ''[[Reign Storm]]'', Danny may not be completely clueless about Sam's feelings for him. Sam had notably displayed affection towards him, but has never been straightforward about the issue. His feelings for her are further noted as he is forced to somewhat come to terms with his feelings when facing her new crush, Gregor, in "''[[Double Cross My Heart]]''". Throughout the majority of Season 3, Danny and Sam's growing romance has been further hinted, the former showcasing he may not be as clueless as he once was and leaning more towards her as potential feelings increasingly develop. In the episode "''[[Frightmare (Danny Phantom episode)|Frightmare]]''" both he and Sam have the same dream that they were a couple.
::::I mentioned the bot because it's why things are the way they are now. Hidden among earlier comments on this page, I suggested a list of criteria for exceptions to the [city, state] convention; should we re-visit that discussion, or start from scratch again? - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 19:58, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
In the final episode "''[[Phantom Planet (Danny Phantom)|Phantom Planet]]''" Danny and Sam kiss after Sam gives Danny the "Sam" class ring,that was meant for her, making him promise to come back from his dangerous mission in the Ghost Zone. After saving the world, Danny skips his own reward ceremony, spending his private time with Sam, putting the ring on her finger and kissing her again, stating ''"I couldn't have done any of this without you"''. Unsure of what is in store for him, but vowing to face it with Sam by his side, Danny flies off with her.
I'm not sure...could you find it and re-post it? I recall finding it fairly reasonable, but I'm not sure. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 02:56, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
==Relationships==
:It got archived - let me dig it up, and I'll post it in a new section (so it's easier to find in the future). - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 16:16, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===[[Sam Manson]]===
A friend of his since at least the 2nd grade, Danny's friendship with Sam isn't always as strong as Tucker due to some of their difference (and her bossy nature), but he values her just as much as Tucker. She undeniably has a crush on Danny, but so far she has hidden it from him well. Danny also shows a certain bond to her, but his ghost-fighting career gives him little time to ponder over it. Sam and Danny were supposedly going to have a psychic connection in earlier drafts of the show, but it turned out just to be a case of minds thinking alike (though a hint of this idea could still be there due to them sharing identical dreams in "Frightmare"). By ''Phantom Planet'', Danny gives Sam the infamous "''Wes"'' ring after she discovers its real inscription, as the two continue a future together.
===[[Tucker Foley]]===
The thing about it is that ''many'' Canadian and American cities have non-unique names, arguably more than any other countries. I think it's better to be consistent internally (ie. all Canadian cities should have the same naming format, all American cities should have the same naming format, etc.) than to be consistent with ''other'' countries. Even if it is the dominant meaning of the word, I don't like [[Ottawa]] not having a provincial name in it when every other city in Ontario has the province in the article title, and I like even less the idea of having Ontario cities be a jumble of ''City'' and ''City, Province''. As far as I'm concerned, they need to all be in the same format, so if they can't all be ''City'', then they '''must''' all be ''City, Province''. No half measures on this. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] 02:21, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Tucker serves as Danny's primary best friend as the two often share many things in common as well as share in general. Danny often takes Tucker's side whenever his other friend, Sam, tends to berate him. He rarely ever argues with Tucker unless it's usually on an opposing force.
===[[Jazz Fenton]]===
== Re-post of an earlier suggestion ==
At first, Danny was at odds with his sister, often exhibiting hostility due to her more intelligent and slight snobbish nature, despite her concern and protection over her little brother. Prior to the series, in ''My Brother's Keeper'' when Danny was still 8-years-old, brother and sister had talked all the time--before Jazz became, as Danny once stated, "''a fink''" (and a "''conceited snob''"). As the show progresses however, Jazz eventually mellowed down as well as accepted Danny as a half-ghost, often covering up for him. The two have since formed a much tighter bond.
===[[Jack and Maddie Fenton]]===
<!-- start original text -->
Like Jazz before, Danny sometimes feel at odds with his folks. Danny at an earlier age once connected greatly with his mother. While it seems he doesn't always feel safe with his parents (especially with their desire to hunt ghosts, including Danny Phantom), he still shows love and concern for them as much as they do in return. In ''"Phantom Planet''" his parents finally learn he is Danny Phantom, easily accepting him.
I'm fine with large U.S. and Canadian cities breaking from the existing naming convention, provided that
#there's consensus that common ''worldwide'' usage for a particular city name refers to a particular city — [[Paris]]=city in France, even though there's a [[Paris, Texas]], [[Paris, Kentucky]], etc., and even though the locals in those towns don't include the state name in their own common usage
#smaller cities, towns, etc. stick to the existing <nowiki>[[Cityname, State]]</nowiki> convention
#where there is conflict between a state or nation's name and a city's name, the larger entity gets the main article but links to the city — [[Washington]]=state; has disambig link to [[Washington, D.C.]]
#when the city article is moved to <nowiki>[[Cityname]]</nowiki>, links to <nowiki>[[Cityname, State]]</nowiki> redirect to the correct place — so [[Chicago, Illinois]] will ''always'' point to that city's article
#there is disambiguation where applicable
Is this workable? - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 22:21, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
<!-- end original text -->
===[[Valerie Gray]]===
re-posted [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 16:37, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC), shortly before server maintenance.
Danny's opinion of Valerie was anything but kind in the earlier episodes, as he was often not a fan of her egotistical and angry disposition ("''Shades of Grey, Life Lessons''"); however, he later learned to appreciate her for who she is ("''Reign Storm''"). Valerie in turn learned to see Danny's personality past his awkward status in school (seeing as she now had to experience the same thing) and by the episode's end, started to like him in a romantic manner. The two dated briefly in "''Flirting with Disaster''" before she broke up with him over her current job as a ghost hunter (unaware Danny faced the same dilemma, too). It seems as though Danny still harbors subtle feelings for her. Unlike Paulina, who likes Danny's ghost side and ignores his human side, Valerie hated Danny's ghost side and liked his human side. In "''Phantom Planet''", when she finds out he is half ghost, we only see her smile at him.
===[[Vlad Plasmius]]===
I would find this to be a workable situation. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 06:20, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Vlad is Danny's primary antagonist and arch-rival. Danny's often at odds with the other half ghost as he often has to resist his offers to join his side and be his son (although by the time of "''Eye for an Eye''", Vlad seems to view him purely as a rival now). Danny takes it upon himself to constantly insult and defeat him every chance he gets, though when the situation arises, the two are often forced to work reluctantly side to side. Only in the alternative future set in ''"The Ultimate Enemy"'' seems to show Danny relying on Vlad in a less antagonistic light.
===[[Dani Phantom|Danielle "''Dani''" Phantom]]===
Seems sensible, yes. [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 12:31, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Danny's clone is much like him, making her easy to talk with, yet still hard to handle due to a more stubborn nature than Danny himself. The two were on opposing teams until Dani realized her creator, Vlad, was only using her, so she joined Danny's group; though she is more affiliated to Danny than the group itself. Out of the two, Danny is more responsible, thus he keeps an eye for Dani, or at least what she might do. She has since left for the time, her current whereabouts are unknown and her reasons for leaving are unknown; but before leaving, she lets Danny know she vows to return. She reappears in "''[[D-Stabilized]]''", searching for Danny to find a cure for her dissolving ailment. Danny managed to find her a cure, maintaining her status and giving her a solid form.
===[[Dark Danny]]===
I would express some disagreement with the third section, though. I think larger entities which are named for the city, as, for instance, prefectures often are, should not be given the base name. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 16:43, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Danny's Ultimate Enemy is his most hated and feared foe ever. Although Danny is at odds with his other enemies, including Vlad, Dark Danny is a whole other story. Dark Danny is, or at least was, Danny's future. The only reason Danny was spared is because Dark Danny needed him to live to exist; now that the timeline has shifted, Dark Danny will more likely destroy Danny without any hesitation.
:Good point, though at the moment I can't think of a decent way to phrase that. Any suggestions? - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 01:09, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
::I'm not sure. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 02:02, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===[[Skulker (Danny Phantom)|Skulker]]===
Everything seems reasonable to me, although there has to be a general "rule" that allows for exceptions on a case by case basis ''if there is overwhelming approval''. For instance, even though using [[New York City]] would clearly violate the "cityname, state" usage, but as no naming policy can forsee all cases, we should allow for the policy to be overridden in certain cases, that is, explicity state that it is a convention but by no means a rule. -- [[User:Ram-Man|Ram-Man]] 20:04, Jun 20, 2004 (UTC)
He is one of the many ghost enemies Danny has to fight--but has proven to be by far his most persistent foe. During the course of the series Skulker has tried to kill Danny and turn him into some sort of a trophy, beforehand declaring only to ''"plan on simply capturing you and letting you live the rest of your life in a cage"'' before ultimately vowing to "''rest your pelt at the foot of my bed!"'' Despite their animonsity, Skulker is usually the first ghost Danny ask for help when a much bigger threat comes up, an alliance the ghost hunter is usually reluctant, but ultimately accepting towards--if not due to the serious consequences that could occur if he declined.
:How about if we add a sentence to the beginning, like "Articles on cities and towns in the US and Canada will be titled [Cityname, State] or [Cityname, Province], except when they meet the following criteria"? - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 15:21, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===Frostbite===
The only thing that bothers me is that the last rule ("there is disambiguation '''where applicable'''") seems overly vague. There may also be an argument (like the one I had with Mintguy about '''Exeter''') over '''whether''' there is "consensus that common ''worldwide'' usage for a particular city name refers to a particular city," so the rules ought to provide for a way to determine this. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 14:44, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
Danny met the yeti like-ghost when he Sam and Tucker were lost in the Ghost Zone, Frostbite and his people treat Danny like a king due to his contribution in saving the Ghost Zone (and Earth) from Pariah Dark. Danny, in return considers Frostbite as his mentor, having been trained by him to use control his growing ice powers.
:We do need some way of determining just what worldwide usage is. As for the vagueness on the last item, though, do you have any suggestions on how to rephrase it? - [[User:Jredmond|jredmond]] 15:21, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
He also has a 13 year old daughter named Blizzard(Still unknown of how she lived and died.)
::No suggestions, but the thing is that in my belief there needs to be more disambiguation than what some of the other people in this forum have thought appropriate. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 16:13, Jun 21, 2004 (UTC)
==Danny's Known Ghostly Powers==
In the case of major cities such as Chicago, los Angeles etc it seem to me to be an open and shut
As Danny Phantom, he freely uses a variety of [[supernatural]] powers. In either form, Danny (as well as all other humans) can [[sight|see]], [[hearing|hear]], and [[speech|speak]] to other [[Anomalous phenomenon|paranormal]] [[entities|beings]], as well as battle them. Danny possess most of his supernatural powers in both his dual forms--although he only uses them most freely in his ghost form. The only exception is that so far Danny cannot utilise his supernatural strength in his human form. Also other ghosts can sometimes overpower him and impose invisibility and intagibility (or lack-there-of) until Danny can regain energy and fight back. To save his friends and family, Danny frequently battles with various ghosts, sometimes from thwarting plans of world domination or confronting them in situations of public disturbances.
case that these places should have the namespace to themselves. I would imagine that perhaps 99% of people looking up "Chicago" or "Los Angeles" would be looking for the cities. In the case of Chicago, according to [[Chicago (disambiguation)]] there arent any other places called Chicago.
Danny Phantom has gradually increased in power and abilities as his knowledge of the ghost world matures. He now has both completely new abilities as well as increased the power of his original ones.
In regard to [[Exeter]] there was an argument, and the overwhelming consensus was that the English city was the largest and most well known place of that name, and should have the namespace to itself. As far as I could tell BRG you were the only person who thought otherwise [[User:G-Man|G-Man]] 09:37, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
===Transformation===
:Based on his comments here, I'm certain that if Ram-Man had been part of that discussion he would have agreed with me. In any case, the "overwhelming consensus" seemed to be composed mostly of you and Mintguy. Several others who did post seemed not to feel that strongly about it, and Tannin, who started on my side and moved to your side of the discussion, did so reluctantly and said he thought he ought to get back to posting in other areas; it is clear that he really thought the issues were beyond him. -- [[User:BRG|BRG]] 18:59, Jul 2, 2004 (UTC)
*Allows Danny to switch between human and ghost forms. His transformation is prefaced by two blue-white rings that appear respectively around his waist and move in opposite directions of each other while transitioning Danny to his ghost form. Other variations may include the rings appearing in Danny's lengthwise axis, or even transitioning from a single limb. He usually accompanies this with his transformation words, "''I'm going ghost!''". If Danny falls unconscious, gets heavily disoriented, or uses too much energy while in ghost form, he usually reverts back to human form. Apparently, his ghost form is not affected by the intense cold and vacuum of space, since he flew out into orbit with nothing but a rocket pack and a space helmet in ''[[Flirting with Disaster (Danny Phantom)|Flirting with Disaster]]''. The white rings that appear during his transformation are visible to others and can be photographed. He may be able to use the rings as some sort of a variation of the ghost shield without transforming, as seen in ''[[My Brother's Keeper]]'', when he used them to repel Spectra while in ghost form and did not transform back into his human self. Typically when Danny is knocked out he often reverts back to his human appearance.
===Ghost Sense===
== City names that change, and how to deal with this when discussing city history in city articles ==
*Danny can sense nearby ghosts, and when this happens a wisp of blue mist comes out of his mouth and he shivers, getting the appearance of standing at attention or an electrical pulse going down his [[spinal cord]], usually as an act of alarm that a ghost is nearby. In "''My Brother's Keeper''", Danny apparently associates his Ghost Sense with the sensation of being cold, and Spectra's true identity as a ghost is hidden from him by keeping her office so cold Danny can continually see his breath. It's revealed in ''[[Urban Jungle (Danny Phantom)|Urban Jungle]]'' that whenever Danny's Ghost Sense has been triggered he has actually been releasing a small amount of his cryokinetic energy as a wisp of blue mist. Danny's ghost sense can't seem to detect the presence of half-ghosts, namely Vlad and Dani. This ability later passed to Dark Danny, but came out as red mist through his nose. This version can also detect half-ghosts, unlike it's predecessor.
===[[Wiktionary:intangibility|Intangibility]]===
Okay, see [[Talk:Vilnius]] for the background, but there's been discussion of how to deal with articles about cities where that city's name has changed. With most name changes, there seems to be some consensus to use the name in use at the time when discussing the history of the city in the article. But in cases where the name changes are essentially translations of the name into other languages, rather than genuine name changes, there has been disagreement. Most of the cities under discussion are in Central/Eastern Europe. Several editors(particularly [[User:Space Cadet]] and [[User:Yeti]], and to some extent [[User:Halibutt]], but also other Polish users, I think) have argued that the present-day name should be used throughout the article in such cases (e.g. [[Gdansk]], [[Szczecin]], [[Vilnius]], [[Lviv]]). Others (including myself) have suggested some attempt be made to use the name used in English at the time (and frequently, in historical accounts of those time periods written in the present day) should be used when discussing earlier periods. Obviously, the question can become very complicated depending on the exact historical circumstances of different periods, but I think everyone has agreed that some discussion towards finding some sort of general principle as to how to deal with such issues would be beneficial. So, I open the floor to further discussion (I'm sure I'll express more specifically my own ideas as the discussion progresses, but I don't want to propose anything just yet). At any rate, all thoughts are welcome. (I hope I have expressed fairly the position of those I disagree with - if not, I hope you'll explain further your ideas, of course) [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 22:19, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)
*Danny has the ability to turn intangible at will. With the use of intangibility, Danny can pass through most objects, becoming untouchable; Danny can also make other people and objects intangible provided he is in physical contact with them. Danny's intangibility is in part connected to his teenage emotions, as he has been known to go intangible at some very inopportune and unwanted times. It is quite common for Danny to make only a part of his body intangible and has been shown that people can see him somewhat when he is intangible. Danny has also been shown to apparently control the flow of his intangibility as he did in ''[[Maternal Instinct (Danny Phantom)|Maternal Instincts]]'' where he put his hand on the ground and a water-like flow moved along and phased Tucker through the floor. In ''[[Parental Bonding]]'' Danny uses a mist-like version of his inntangibility to espace a [[List of Danny Phantom villains and ghosts#Dorathea "Dora" the Dragon Ghost|Dragon Ghost]]. In an opposite case, in the Ghost Zone, humans can phase through everything, including ghosts. This power can work in conjunction with other ghosts as well, as shown in the final episode, when Danny and all the ghosts of the Ghost Zone used their power to make the entire Earth intangible to save it from destruction.
===[[Invisibility]]===
:My proposition is for dealing with city names with _other_ articles,
*When invisible, Danny cannot be seen by human eyes and even from scanning devices. Invisibility and Intangibility both work in similar ways, as they are both triggered by Danny's emotional states--fear, nervousness etc--as he has been known to go invisible at some very inopportune and unwanted times --and thus work well together. It is quite common for Danny to make only a part of his body invisible and Danny can also make other people and objects invisible--provided that he is in physical contact with them.
eg about people born in city X.
===[[Flying]]'''/'''[[Floating]]'''/'''Hovering===
:The rationale: the experinece show that there are many rever wars started over consistent
*While in ghost form, Danny has the ability to float/fly through the air, sometimes at considerable speeds and heights. He often uses this in combat, but occasionally will do it for fun and relaxation. He can also make other humans and objects hover but must keep in physical contact with them. In ''Maternal Instincts'', Danny's speed of flight was clocked at 112 [[Miles per hour|mph]]. He has the potential to be even faster if Tucker's brief time as a half-ghost is any indication, climbing on flight speed beyond 112 mph. When floating or flying, Danny turns his bottom half into a [[wisp]].
naming of the city names in that _other_ artciles (e.g. John Hevelius
or Georg Forster or Schluter). It's not that the compromise is not welcome,
it's becuase newcomers usually just don't care about it or don't know
about it. My proposition aims at avoinding such revert wars
===Paranormal Strength, Speed, Agility and Durability===
:The proposition: Use most controversial names in the beginning
*In Ghost-Mode, Danny can display extraordinary physical feats of [[superhuman strength|strength]], [[speed]], [[agility]], and durability; Danny has developed a high pain threshold given the number of times he has been attacked, shot at, etc, managing to bare the pain out. He is able to withstand and recover from numerous, recurring injuries and damage. So far, only when Danny is in '''Ghost-Mode''' can he perform such feats, while in human form, Danny Fenton is still somewhat physically weak, although, he's been known to survive the impacts from heights while in human form, and from hits that would have killed a normal human being.
(usually it would be just two) in manner A (B) or A/B and then
behave according to compromise (that is, use name historical in that period).
In addition, some of the following:
#add msg saying about such controversy
#or add such comment in article (as hidden comment)
#add link to article covering controversy in see also
:Article covering the controversy: saying about status of the city
or region, arguments for using or not using both names and where to
find wikipedia conventions about the names and WHY such
conventions were created
[[User:Szopen|Szopen]] 14:55, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
===Spectral Manipulation/Ecto-Physical Mass Manipulation/Phase Shifting===
:: I agree that there should be a message in the begining of the article saying ''Throughout the article city X is called Y as it was common English name until DDDD year'' or something like that. And also, the first time any former name is used, current name (article name) should be included in parentheses, like "in this year Y (X) was occupied by alien forces". That will make article less confusing and a message at the beggining may lessen probability of newcommer reverts. [[User:Knutux|Knutux]] 05:35, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)
*Spectral manipulation is a ghosts version of [[List of comic book superpowers#Biological manipulation|Biological manipulation]]--which includes abilities like [[List of comic book superpowers#Duplication|Duplication]], [[List of comic book superpowers#Superhuman physical resistance|Superhuman physical resistance etc]]--[[density]] [[alteration]], like intangibility. It can also be seen as a form of [[List of comic book superpowers#Shapeshifting|shapeshifting]]--Danny shifting into his human mode or his ghost mode or Amorpho's main powers. Danny has demonstrated the power to change the shape of his body into intangible holes and shapes. Uses include ''Parental Bonding'' where Danny turned into a gaseous form to escape the dragon ghost's grasp, ''Mystery Meat'' where Danny's belt turned into a long, translucent line and ''Beauty Marked'', Danny created a large hole in his mouth. His Spectral Manipulation is apparently long-lasting in his belt as seen in ''Shades of Gray'' where a book passed through his waist and ''Pirate Radio'' where Youngblood's sword passed harmlessly through his belt.
===Wall Walking===
I agree with use of parentheses, but only in ''other'' articles. That is to say, in the [[Gdansk]] article, it makes no sense to use Danzig (Gdansk)... but it makes sense in, say, the [[Arthur Schopenhauer]] article or the [[Günter Grass]] article. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 08:25, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
*Danny, as well as many other ghosts, can minipulate their centre of [[gravity]] ; they can walk and run on up and down uneven and vertical surfaces as though they were horizontal. This either because of his ability to defy gravity (flying) '''OR''' because of some unexplored ability to adhere/combine/[[interact]] to/with the [[molecular]] [[structure]] ([[cling]]ing) of the surface of walls etc.
===Overshadowing/[[Possession]]===
== FAQ for users who think Wikipedia is biased against their country ==
*First shown in ''[[Parental Bonding]]'', Danny can take possession of a human being or an animal (''[[Micro Management]]'') from within by phasing completely into the person's body, allowing him to completely control that person's actions. Danny has used this power on several people, including Tucker, Dash, his dad, and even a rat, for various reasons. When overshadowed, the victim keeps his or her original form, but his or her eyes and voice change to Danny's. Being able to adapt the eyes and voice of the person being overshadowed seems to be a matter of experience; other ghosts (and Vlad) do this effortlessly from early appearances, however some of Danny's enemies (like Sidney Pointdexter, who has little expertise in the use of his own Ghost Powers, and Tucker when he temporarily gains ghost powers thanks to Desiree) are unable to change their voices when using the ability. As of the episode ''Eye for an Eye'', Danny appears to have enough mastery over the power to use the possessed body's voice (in this case, Vlad Plasmius). The victim has no memory of what he or she did while overshadowed, but usually feel a slight dizziness and disorientation, and occasionally feel influenced by what Danny says or does (one example being Dash feeling the urge to wash his mother's feet after Danny overshadows him and forces him to say the very same thing to Paulina). On numerous occasions, it has been demonstrated that this ability can be resisted, and that Danny can even be forced out of the person with the right equipment, or if he's not up to full power. Overshadowing can also be resisted through sheer willpower, demonstrated first by Jack (''[[Bitter Reunions]]''). As seen in ''[[Public Enemies]]'' and ''[[Life Lessons]]'', ghosts can still use their powers of flight, intangibility, and invisibility while overshadowing someone. Danny has also used this power to enter people's dreams (''[[Frightmare (Danny Phantom episode)|Frightmare]]'').
===Ectoplasmic Energy Blast - "''Ghost Ray''"===
I'm writing a FAQ for users who feel that Wikipedia is biased against their country/nation at [[User:Zocky/Country bias]]. It's partly tangential to this discussion and highlights some of the things that this policy should clarify. [[User:Zocky|Zocky]] 21:41, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)
*First shown in ''[[What You Want (Danny Phantom)|What You Want]]'', it is an ectoplasmic blast that usually comes out of the palm of his hand, Danny blasts enemies using this attack. The attack takes many forms: a ray of energy, a glowing orb, or even a repulsion field. He has also kept the energy used inside his hand, using it to empower his strikes. In ''[[Memory Blank]]'', it is learned that Danny has had this ability since he became half-ghost. This power is not limited to just the palm as an inexperienced Danny shot one from his rear end (''[[Memory Blank]]'') and Danielle herself from her feet (''[[D-Stabilized]]'') implying that Danny may have the ability to do this as well considering she's his clone. By the time of the Danny Phantom TV Movie: ''[[Reign Storm]]'', Danny had learned how to fire off a Ghost Ray out of his finger and hand in human mode. These rays can also be charged to various power levels, from a highly powerful white-green, to a low-level glow for lighting up dark areas. He is also able to charge up a ball of light and throw it to disorient enemies with its brightness. Danny can also use this power to force ghosts out of people they are overshadowing. Danny has also been able to absorb Ghost Rays (or other similar attacks) and redirect them at his enemies (''[[Control Freaks (Danny Phantom)|Control Freaks]]''). He has recently learned to fire circular rays in a manner similar to Vlad's, creating a rudimentary ectoplasmic bomb (see [[Danny Phantom (character)#Ectoplasmic Energy Bolts|Ectoplasmic Energy Bolts]] below).
===Ectoplasmic Energy Shield - "''Ghost Shield''"===
== Naming convention for Australia (take 2) ==
*Danny can use this ability to form shields of ectoplasmic energy, which he can use to block or rebound attacks from enemies. There are two kinds of shields; the first is a shield that appears as a sphere of energy that protects from all sides (''Bitter Reunions''). The other is a single wall of energy--an ectoplasmic energy construct--that is more direct in its range but is much stronger (''Teacher of the Year''). Danny can create an Ecto-Orb and use it as a circular shield (''[[Beauty Marked]]'' and ''Reality Trip''). He's also able to create a shield by holding up his forearm, creating a medium ranged, relatively strong shield big enough to protect him from strong head-on attacks.
===Ghost Stinger===
This was previously discussed at [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (city names)/Archive_6#Standard for Australia?]] but wasn't really resolved. I notice [[User:Ambi]] has made some changes and [[User talk:Ambi]] and [[User talk:Tannin]] have had some comments regarding this, so I thought I would bring it up here.
*In ''Public Enemies'', Danny uses this pseudo-electric attack to free Wulf from Bullet's weapon, although it could just be Danny's power traveling through Bullet's weapon, like energy feedback through the energy field of the ectoplasmic energy construct. Other examples of its use might include Vlad in ''[[The Million Dollar Ghost]]'', Penelope Spectra in ''[[Doctor's Disorders]]'', Technus in ''Flirting With Disaster'' and [[Dark Danny]] in ''[[The Ultimate Enemy]]''.
===Ghostly Wail===
I like Ambi's page moves, it is definitely easier for the suburbs, and some localities are borderline suburbs/cities in their own right. It does make it a lot easier to link when you know that the page will be called [[Geelong, Victoria]] as opposed to guessing if it is [[Geelong]], [[Geelong, Victoria]], [[Geelong, Australia]] or [[Geelong, Victoria, Australia]].
*Danny's most powerful technique. In ''The Ultimate Enemy'', Danny develops the unique ability to generate an extremely powerful technical like a sonic scream from his vocal cords and mouth, a bit like a [[Banshee]]'s wail - with a ghostly-like [[moan]]ing. The Ghostly Wail can cause terrible pain to ghosts and damage tangible matter. This ability was powerful enough to destroy the massive artificially generated Ghost Shield that protected the future Amity Park, and is effective against multiple targets. When used, this power quickly drains present-Danny's energy and completely turns him back to human in most cases, a problem he apparently has remedied by the last episode (or it could have been because of his recharged power state). He has used this power only in extreme cases (Only seven times in the history of the series, notably "[[The Ultimate Enemy]]" where he used it three times, the other four times being in "[[The Fright Before Christmas]]", "[[King Tuck]]", "[[List of Danny Phantom episodes|Kindred Spirits]]" and "[[List of Danny Phantom episodes|Phantom Planet]]"). This is also one of two powers that Danny has and Vlad does not (the other being his [[cryokinesis]]).
===Ectoplasmic Energy Constructs===
What will happen to the capital cities? [[Sydney]], [[Melbourne]], [[Brisbane]], [[Adelaide]], [[Hobart]] and [[Canberra]] are named as such. Darwin is [[Darwin, Australia]], and Perth is [[Perth, Australia]] (despite there being a [[Perth, Tasmania]] as well).
*Danny has shown that he can utilise ectoplasmic energy constructs. He can shape ectoplasmic energy into solid objects--in ''[[Double Cross My Heart]]'' Danny is able to generate one to use as his most powerful shield to protect himself.
===Ectoplasmic Energy Bolts===
But I can also see Tannin's POV. Is there really going to be another [[Coonabarabran]], [[Kalgoorlie]] or [[Alice Springs]]? Will it be a pain to link to articles with names like [[Coonabarabran, New South Wales]], [[Kalgoorlie, Western Australia]] and [[Alice Springs, Northern Territory]]? -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 23:33, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
*First seen used by Danny in ''[[Reality Trip]]''. Either a bolt of ectoplasmic energy or an ectoplasmic energy semi-construct, it is easily seen as an expansion of Danny's use of his ectoplasmic energy powers. Present as a glowing orb or a circular rays--(similar to [[Starfire (comics)#Teen Titans animated series|Starfire's Starbolts]] from the [[Teen Titans (TV series)|Teen Titans TV animated series]]),--and further still can be used as a rudimentary ectoplasmic [[bomb]]--time-delayed and can be combined with Danny's ice powers. This use of his ectoplasmic energy is useful to Danny when he is a situation where he needs to combat his adverseries with a suppressing line of not-so-friendly fire.
===Duplication===
:That is one of the uses of redirects. Make [[Coonabarabran]] a redirect to [[Coonabarabran, New South Wales]] and you have something that is easy to link to and has a consistent naming convention. Or you could do it the other way around as well. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 23:53, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)
*A power first used by Vlad, Danny has struggled with this power the most, trying to manipulate his body twice in ''Maternal Instinct'' and ''Identity Crisis'' to largely disastrous results. After managing to do it in ''Reign Storm'' when he split into four (he was wearing the Ecto-Skeleton which enhanced his powers 100-fold), he appeared to finally and successfully split in two (''Beauty Marked''), if only for a quick second. He successfully split in four by ''[[Torrent of Terror]]'', though it drained him of his energy briefly. Vlad was able to create many shadowy copies of himself to influence people into voting for him, indicating that there might be no limit to how many copies Danny may come to create should he reach that level of potential; the possibility that the sum total of his power being split evenly amongst himself is also a possibility if Vlad's demonstration is any indication (''[[Eye for an Eye (Danny Phantom)|Eye for an Eye]]'').
===[[Cryokinesis]]===
::There's not likely to be another Coonabarabran, Kalgoorlie or Alice Springs, but it makes it painful whenever anyone is trying to link to them to know where the article is. Until yesterday, we had articles at Town, Town, State, and Town, Country, which is silly, and they clearly needed standardising. IMO, it's more annoying to have to try and hunt down what title an article is at than it would be to type the extra few words of a piped link. Furthermore, when our suburbs are all at Suburb, State, it would seem to make sense to do this for the towns as well, for the sake of standardisation. I don't care about the capital cities so much - they could be exceptions. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 23:58, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)
* (Ghostly Ice) Danny is capable of using ice-empowered versions of the Ghost Ray as of ''[[Urban Jungle (Danny Phantom)|Urban Jungle]]''. This is revealed to be an extension of his ghost sense and ghost rays rather than a separate power altogether entirely, which explains why Danny always shivers whenever he senses a ghost. It is most likely based off of the "''cold spots''" that supposedly accompany ghosts. This power allows Danny to radiate cold, to shoot off rays of intense cold or fire off [[Danny Phantom (character)#Ectoplasmic Energy Bolts|solid projectiles]] from both his palms and eyes (when he uses this power his eyes sometimes turn blue instead of their usual ghostly green, reflecting the cold). This power has been building up inside him as "''negative heat''" ever since he first gained his ghost powers, his body eventually becoming too numb and chilled when the pent-up energy got to be too much for him to ignore, giving him flu-like symptoms. Frostbite successfully managed to teach him how to handle this ability though. By the time of ''[[Boxed Up Fury]]'', he's already capable of using this power comfortably, even creating an ice sphere as a shield to protect his friends. This is one of two powers (the other being the Ghostly Wail) that Danny has that Vlad does not.
===Teleportation===
I must say I agree with Ambi, I just wanted to bring the discussion out here into the open! One problem is that there seems to be a view on WP that linking to redirects is a bad thing - but I don't think it is, the redirects make it easier to link to an article. I would tend to go for '''City, State''' being the article and '''City''' & '''City, Australia''' being the redirects. If disambig is required, then one should be a redirect to the other. If the name is shared between Australian and international cities, '''City, Australia''' should redirect to '''City''' (a disambig), but I'm probably getting too detailed here. -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 00:26, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
*In "''Reality Trip''" Danny temporarily disappeared from sight and reappeared in another ___location a short distance away. It seemed quite like Vlad's ability to teleport himself, but without the mist (which was probably just for show). This could possibly be a variation of his invisibility powers. Also happened something similar in "Frightmare".
===Weather Manipulation (Temporary)===
:I like consistency myself (not that I have any stake in how places on articles in Aussieland get named). Whether you use a comma-separated model as in the U.S. or not, there should certainly be a redirect at the other end (or a disambig if ambiguous). People tend to link to the unqualified names, simply because it is easier--and if the redirects are in place and work, then everyone is happy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with linking through redirects (provided they are not "surprise" redirects). There are some people with nothing better to do with there time, who take it upon themselves to change such links to avoid the redirect, but there is no real harm done--just not much point to it as far as I can see. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 01:16, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
*In "''Torrent of Terror'', Vortex accidentally gave Danny the ability to use weather controlling powers that were heavily tied to Danny's emotions and could counteract Vortex's own abilities. Among them were creating actual effects to the weather that spanned across Amity Park's skies (Bright sunlight, thunderstorms) to making miniature versions of these that typically comedically zapped Vlad and making very cold gusts of wind spring up. However, the powers only lasted for that episode, as Vortex zapped Danny again in their duel and caused him to lose the powers.
{{DPNav}}
{{DEFAULTSORT:Phantom, Danny}}
Check links before you make them. Whenever I create articles, I have another window open that I can use to just check if things I think are correct links actually link to what I wnat them too. Article titles should be as short as possible while getting across the meaning, and as this is wikipedia policy, people searching should be aware of this. You search for "Geelong" which will either take you to the Geelong article you want, or a disambig which will direct you to it (if not you fix it so it does). By putting it as "Geelong, Victoria" you confuse everybody who automatically expects it to be under Geelong. If you want to create a redirect from "Geelong, Victoria" to "Geelong". But really who searches for "Geelong, Victoria"?--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 02:16, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[[Category:Danny Phantom characters|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Nicktoon protagonists|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Child superheroes|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional ghosts|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional hybrids|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional mutates|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can teleport|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters with superhuman strength|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can turn intangible|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can turn invisible|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can fly|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can duplicate themselves|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters with accelerated healing|Phantom, Danny]]
[[Category:Fictional characters who can stretch themselves|Phantom, Danny]]
[[fr:Danny Fenton]]
The whole guiding philosophy of our naming conventions is that article titles should always be the '''simplest''' and '''most common''' title possible, and that they should be the '''most natural''' title to use in a free link. <nowiki>[[Ballarat]] is vastly more natural than [[Ballarat, Victoria]] or [[Ballarat, Australia]] or [[Ballarat (Victoria)]]</nowiki>, or any of the multitude of other possibilities. We ''already have'' a policy that covers this: that we link to the most commion and most natural term. [[User:Tannin|Tannin]] 08:08, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
[[it:Danny Fenton]]
:Hmmm, that's interesting. So are you saying that all of the U.S. names are wrong where there is no ambiguity? It seems that convention was modified for U.S. cities (and from what I can see has been extended somewhat inconsistently to some other countries). Are you saying it is impossible to similarly modify the convention for other countries? I think there is something to be said for consistency in naming. It is ODD to sometimes find a city titled one way and sometimes another way. It makes linking more difficult (and ZayZayEM, we can't realistically expect casual editors to know or desire to open two windows to check links first). [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:43, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
::From what I've been reading, I've gathered the entire mis-convention of US naming was down to a ingenious bot that automatically retrieved census data and wiki'd it up - and then everybody was [[hyperbole|too lazy]] to fix it up (darn Americans). Somebody ([[Delegation|not me]]) should be fixing it up. Seeing as we are creating these Aussie articles manually, we can avoid this [[blunder]]--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 14:46, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::And on the matter of not using two windows. It's precisely the reason why standard naming conventions should be used. Just as when searching, editors (casual or pro) should assume these are followed and use the simplest most common title, at the very worst this will lead to a disambig page which can be fixed by a piped link at a later date. [[User:ZayZayEM|ZZ]] ''should see notice notes to self next time''
:::My $0.02: [[KISS principle|KISS]]. The preview button is your friend - I check (and often follow to check for disambig pages) ''all'' my links and formatting before I commit my edits. - [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] 03:10, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
Wiser writes: "so are you saying that all of the U.S. names are wrong where there is no ambiguity? No. Of course not. That is quite clearly ''not'' what I am saying. There was a deliberate decision, made by discussion and concensus, to make a specific exception for the American cities, and only for the American cities. Partially, this was because of the thousands of automated Rambot entries, and partly because (unlike the rest of the world) the Americans really do talk that way: it is common for Americans to say "I'm from City, State" where you or I would say "I'm from City", or maybe something like "I'm from City, in southern Victoria".
It is also obvious that I am not saying convetions can't be modified — the American example illustrates this. If we ''do'' modify the convebtion, however, it must be through discussion and agreement '''before''' the change is put into effect, not through a unilaterial one-man page-move war. The correct thing to do is move the pages back to their standard titles where they have been for several years, discuss a new convention, and ''then'', if and only if there is general agreement, move the pages to whatever new titles are considered approriate.
:But most people would say "I'm from Chelsea in Melbourne" rather than "Chelsea in Victoria".. should suburb names go '''Suburb, City'''? (For the record.. no, I don't want to rename all those Melbourne suburbs again!)
::I think if it comes down whether to use Suburb, State or Suburb, City then '''Suburb, State''' is probably the way to go, as that way you don't get into the hassle of whether a major suburb is a district in its own right or merely part of a larger city. Its also how you'd label a postal letter. If there is a further conflict of nomenclature then Suburb, State (City) should be used.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 01:01, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:I was about to suggest an option to vote for: "'''City, State''' for all Australian cities towns and suburbs. Exception for capital cities". But then I thought, [[Hobart]] would be titled as such, but [[Geelong, Victoria]] and [[Wollongong, New South Wales]] wouldn't be. There are other Hobarts (and Melbournes, and Perths) although they are a lot smaller than the Australian cities and going by WP's generic disambiguation policy, deserve primary disambiguation. Perhaps we could make it cities get the primary name if needed, but towns and suburbs get '''Town, State''' or '''Suburb, State'''?
:Just a question - do all states make a firm distinction between city/town? In Tasmania, a built up area over 20,000 is a city. Is this different in each state?
-- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 12:45, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No consensus to make a change to Australian city names has emerged: in fact no-one even seems to be discussing it anymore - not a single post in several days. The unilaterial page moves of the other day need to be tidied up. Anyone care to give me a hand? [[User:Tannin|Tannin]] 22:38, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:I would, but since I tend to prefer including the state name, we wouldn't really be helping each other! I think Ambi has disappeared to study, so I don't expect she will be around much the next few weeks -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 23:39, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::I'm not sure on this either - It seems kinda neat having '''City/Town''' as the only article of the name, but then you get things like [[Renmark]] and [[Renmark, South Australia]]. We don't want someone else grabbing the name first, do we? -- [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] [[User_talk:Alphax|(talk)]] 06:36, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
:::I apologise for my absence from this page - for some reason, it didn't make it to my watchlist, so I didn't know anyone had replied. It *is* important that there is either a redirect or a disambiguation link at Name. But provided that that is so, it's much more convenient, for both us and readers, to know that the articles are all following a standard format. If they're searching, they'll find the article either way. If they're not searching, it's going to be easier for them to find articles at Name, State, rather than guessing at the combination of Name, Name, State, Name, Country, or any one of the other combinations that existed before I standardised them. Things like the Renmark mess only happen because we don't have standards.
:::And one more thing - no one objected when we made the suburbs Suburb, State. Tannin didn't bother participating in those discussions, and he seems to be the only one to then turn around and complain now. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 06:52, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::::I'm still a bit puzzled to find what you mean by a "lack of standards". The standards are to follow Wikipedia conventions (simplest name possible). Also I am curious as to how significant suburbs have to be to be allowed into the suburb projects. Are really tiny suburbs really encyclopaedic information?--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 05:29, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::::And you've already been told that this is absolutely not set in stone, so please stop repeating it as your mantra. The standards are what we decide as the standards. Which is why we're here. If you dispute the inclusion of any particular suburb, feel free to take it up on VFD. Expect it to be near-unanimously kept, however. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 06:26, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::::[[Palm Island]], is an article which I have been ''forced'' to create a Redirect, because it was made under the unnecessarily long title [[Palm Island, Queensland]]. The problem will just continue to happen no matter what policy we have. Why create a new policy that will not solve the problem (and require typing more characters when creating links? and increasing piped link numbers?)--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 13:13, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
::::::a) The author's mistake - it's not very hard to drop a note on their talk page. b) No, it won't. This eliminates the need to hunt through five different potential article titles to look for any possible articles, and will help to eliminate duplicate articles, as all red links can be easily standardised. It will make things easier for us, and it will help stop duplicates. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with piped links. This does have advantages, and the only argument against seems to be enforcing a policy that doesn't exist. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 00:08, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::::::I'm hardly going to drop a note on a users talk page about an undecided policy, especially one I don't agree with. What do you mean by B) it won't?. It won't create more piped links and extra typing, or the probably won't continue to occur. Naming conventions have always been broken, whether out of naivity or ignorance — by creating extraneous conventions you create a larger gap for naivity and ignorance to occur in. I wouldn't mind so much if Wikipedia was a closed project, and the rules could be sure to reach everyone, as its an open project that everyone can join - conventions should be KISS as possible.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 01:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
===Voting===
Ok, here are some options - feel free to add other alternatives, then we'll have a vote? (Note in each of these, ''City'' can mean ''City'', ''Town'' or ''Suburb''.) -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 22:40, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
*Option 1 - How it is now. Suburb names get '''City, State''', Unique city/town names get '''City'''. Non-unique city/town names get '''City, State'''
*Option 2 - All suburb, town and city names get '''City, State'''
*Option 3 - All suburb, town and city names get '''City, State''', except for capitals which get just '''City''' if non-ambiguous, otherwise (Option 3a) '''City, Australia''' or (Option 3b) '''City, State'''.
**Comment: Perth and Darwin are the only ambiguous names. Some of the others have primary disambiguation.
*Option 4 - All suburb, town and city names get '''City, State''', except for capitals and major cities which get '''City''' if non-ambiguous, otherwise (Option 4a) '''City, Australia''' or (Option 4b) '''City, State'''.
**Comment: "Major cities" is a POV term - I would suggest any city bigger than our smallest capital (Darwin) - IOW, Newcastle, Gold Coast, Wollongong, Sunshine Coast, Geelong, Townsville, Cairns and Launceston. (see [[List of cities in Australia]])
Either Option 4 or Option 2 sounds the most sensible to me. I'd be a bit inclined, however, to apply the exemption in Option 4 to only capital cities. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 23:39, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:The "Option 4, except only for capitals" is actually option 3. I just noticed I included "City, Australia" in option 3. This is probably because Perth and Darwin are at [[Perth, Australia]] and [[Darwin, Australia]] already - as captials, they probably deserve a less vague name (people from other countries wouldn't know where [[Darwin, Northern Territory]] was). Note there is also a [[Perth, Tasmania]]. I've changed the options to specify. So if I have translated your thoughts properly, you mean Option 2 or 3b? -- [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] 00:42, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::3b. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 00:45, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
'''issue''' there seems to be no option for allowing Wikipedia policy of ''all'' non-ambigious wikis to be left as merely ''City'' (whether capital, city, town or '''suburb'''). ption one comes close. The problem I have is will we have arguments over whether major suburbs are "suburbs" or localities in their own right?--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 12:26, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:The main title, if there's nothing for it to be disambiguated with, will ''still'' point to the Town, State article, regardless. But it makes it vastly more convenient, for both editors and users, if they know exactly where the article is going to be, rather than having to take several guesses at whether it might be at Town, Town, State, Town, Country, or something else. I've had to do that before, and it annoyed the hell out of me. The searcher still gets to the article either way, but this makes things considerably easier for numerous tasks. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 13:23, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
::Several guesses?? I don't undesrtand what you mean. If the article is set up correctly, and you search with the simplest name (as per expected policy), you will either A)go straight there or B)be redirected to the article via a disambig page. You should not have to "guess" a second search. If you get C)Wikipedia doesn't know what your on about; you fix it so it does. By having a breach of Wikipedia naming policy (using less-than-minimal names) you increase the risk of C occuring for naive searchers.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 15:10, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:::You're B) is not a redirect but requires either A) the end-user to make an extrat click because the link is not properly disambiguated or B) some editor to go back and take the extra step of properly disambiguating the link. There is no breach of Wikipedia naming policy by using a consistent naming system if there is consensus for using such a system. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 17:41, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)
::::Oh no. I have to click an extra button. Or, wow, I have to actually modify wikipedia to make it better (isn't that what Wikipedia is all about?). We shouldn't warp a policy to suit our own laziness, at teh expense of making Wikipedia less accessible to people who aren't in the loop. If the simplest name doesn't have the article (i.e. its only under City, State) a lot more people are going to lost or not find the page than if it follows normal policy--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 02:30, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:::::ZayZayEM, the point is that you seem to think the naming policy for places is inviolable and set in stone, when it most certainly is not. If there is a rough consensus to modify the convention for Australia, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 12:54, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
:::::No-one can get lost when the redirects are set up properly. If I search for "[[Glen Iris]]", (expecting the Victorian one), I get redirected to "[[Glen Iris, Victoria]]". No problem. If I search for Glen Iris, Victoria, straight off, even less of a problem. If I search for "[[Carlton]]", (expecting the one in Victoria), I get a disambig page which lets me get to "[[Carlton, Victoria]]" in an extra step. Not a problem. If the article exists, no-one will not find it simply because it has ", Victoria" or whatever else on the end. It does make it easier for us to be able to insert "Glen Iris, Victoria" into an article without having to investigate whether it is really there. It makes it easier for editors, yes, but no harder for readers to find what they're looking for. '''[[User talk:TPK|T.]]'''[[User:TPK|P.K.]] <small>08:28, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)</small>
::::::No-one will not find it if its under [[Glen Iris]] either. Will this policy, if it is agreed on by other editors, be inserted somewhere so that benign editors have prior knowledge to this? If I had not found this page, I would have just assumed it would be under [[Glen Iris]] (as is [[Yeppoon]], [[Emu Park]], and [[Rockhampton]]). Its a redirect either way. If its not broke, don't fix it. There really needs to be a concrete reason for a sudden deviation from the widespread policy. I'd accept bot's technical limitation, but not "it suits me better"--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 10:28, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::::::It ''is'' broke, and that's why we're here. Having to test five different potential naming conventions to see whether an article might be there is bad form. If this was enforced, you wouldn't have to assume that it'd be at [[Glen Iris]], because [[Rockhampton]] and [[Emu Park]] would also be in the same form. We do need to make sure there are links from '''Name''' to '''Name, State''' though - I'll have to keep an eye out for that in future. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 00:08, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
::::::::No it is not broke. It is being broken. Some people aren't going to follow naming conventions, official, or consensus, regardless. There is absolutely no point in complicating this further by creating an increased risk of naive mistakes by introducing a new policy to replce an old policy that will work just as well. If something is broke, don't replace it with a piece with teh exact same hole. What we do need is a policy for ambigious articles (i.e. City, State; City, Australia or City (Australia)) – not one for articles which do not need disambiguation. Perhaps we can hold a '''truce''' and at least get this sorted out, and then work on whether we will disambiguate all pages, or only those that require it.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 01:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::::::::Some people aren't going to follow naming conventions, but at least if they're standardised, then the ''red links'' which they will likely follow to create the article, will be at the right place. If they create one at another title anyway, we're perfectly capable of fixing it up, and encouraging them to improve their ways, as we've already proven quite effective at doing since we Aussies started coordinating things. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 06:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think as far as ambigious article nomenclature, '''City, State''' (b) should be preferrable to City, Australia. The latter being Americentric bias (''Australia can't have more than one Perth?''). Option One for me as long as important non-ambigious suburbs are allowed unique articles as first preference. Unimportant suburbs shouldn't get articles, or be included in the city article.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 15:15, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:<del>I agree with ZZM. 3a, please (1 is close enough if not). [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] [[User_talk:Alphax|(talk)]] 14:54, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)</del>
::Don't you mean 3b?--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 02:40, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
:::Um, I guess so. '''3b''' then. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] [[User_talk:Alphax|(talk)]] 05:41, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)
:i agree with ZayZayEM, although i wouldn't go so far as to say that unimportant suburbs shouldn't have articles. if disambiguation is necessary, the city, state format is best. so '''option one''' comes closest to this. [[User:Clarkk|clarkk]] 13:14, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
::By unimportant suburbs, I mean '''really unimportant''' ones. [[Yeppoon]] where I live, is actually a conglomeration of several localities, I would not expect Wikipedia to have articles on [[Cooee Bay]], [[Farnborough]], [[Roslynn]], [[Malara]], [[Bangalee]] etc. especially while so many genuine town-entities are article-less.--[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 01:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:::I don't see this as a problem. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 06:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
===Take Three===
Good things come in threes?
[[Wikipedia:Australian_wikipedians%27_notice_board#Again_on_Disambiguation]]
== French communes disambiguation ==
I started a discussion with [[User:olivier|olivier]] concerning French communes disambiguation. The question is: should articles be titled [[Commune (departement)]] or [[Commune, departement]]?
*Arguments for the former:
**Looks best
**Follows general naming conventions
**Follows fr: usage.
*Arguments for the latter:
**Looks best
**Follows general usage for place names
**Follows current usage for French communes on Wikipedia.
Any thoughts ? [[User:Rorro|_R_]] 15:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
== How to handle names with diacritics. ==
Currently there is an on-going dispute over the name [[Talk:Zurich|Talk:Zürich]].
Pleas see also:
* 74 [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Transliteration]]
I think that for as standard in place names Wiki should adopt the simple rule '''"strip the [[diacritics]] on foreign name unless they are very well known on that word in English."''' The articles can then start with an Anglosized version followed by the local version eg:
* '''Zurich''' ([[German]]:''[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zürich Zürich]'')
* '''Cologne''' ([[German]]:''[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Köln Köln]'')
* '''Berlin''' ([[German]]:''[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin Berlin]'')
* '''Rome''' ([[Italian]] and [[Latin]] ''[http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma Roma]'')
* '''Copenhagen''' ([[Danish]]:''[http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/København København]'')
* '''Sao Tome Principe''' ([[Portuguese]] ''[http://pe.wikipedia.org/wiki/São_Tomé_and _Príncipe São Tomé and Príncipe]'') ...''somewhere in the text'' "'''São Tomé and Príncipe'''" literally translated into English is "Saint Thomas and Prince" but this is never used.
This is not a new rule, but something that has been done in English for generations, certainly since the advent of the typewriter and probably since before the printing press.
--[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 19:08, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That would work well in some languages, specifically German, and less well in many other, specifically Finnish and Scandinavian (on the other hand, you may say that these languages doesn't have diacritics but extended character sets). It would also introduce an unnecessary foundation for lots of disputes, and alienate foreigners. There was a reason to do so in printed works when there were no foreign types available. But that reason is obsoleted in the computerized world.<br>--[[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 19:15, 2004 Nov 12 (UTC)
But it is not for several good reasons:
* Most English keyboards do not have more than 26 letters and forming any other letter is a pain.
* Unless a foreigner has an inferiority complex why should he or she care how the English spell a foreign name. Speaking as an English speaker I would not be alienate no matter how someone spelt or pronounced the city I live in. Why would a reasonable foreigner wish to impose an an English speaking person with an English keyboard the extra steps to put in characters which they do not have easy access too. I have just asked my wife is she considers it an offence when people do not know the Gaelic or use fatha in name for her home town. She replied using Anglo-Saxon words that she does not.
* Because of this English speaking people do not use search engines which automatically convert searches into other keys. If I use German and Zurich as an example. The search using Zürich is full of German pages, so then I need to filter them with an English only filter as well as working out how to get an [[umlaut]]. Why go through these two additional hoops when I can search quickly and easily using Zurich which automatically tends to filter out German pages.
* What are the Scandinavian characters which are not in the Latin alphabet and how are they traditionaly converted into Latin characters? [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 00:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
<br>
:When there are traditional English names for places, as is the case for large cities (Munich, Cologne etc.), these should be used when writing in English. By definition, these lack diacritics.
:Most smaller places, however, don't have such traditional names, as they are not often referred to in other languages. In such cases, as with personal names, the proper diacritics should be used, when there is no technical problem with that. That some English-speakers have problems writing foreign diacritics is not an argument for placing these subjects under the wrong heading, but for creating redirects or disambiguation pages when necessary. Writing as a Swede, I regard stripping diacritics from Swedish names and other words as a sign of sloppiness. Perhaps disrespect as well, especially in the case of personal names, but mostly just sloppiness. / [[User:Tupsharru|Tupsharru]] 14:05, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Do many English speakers even know what diacritics are? Or how to use them (or how to use them — I only just learned how to do æ & Æ) While cultural sensitivity is nice, this is an ''English'' encyclopedia so English/Anglo versions shoudl be used. Obscure names might be ''worthy'' of diacritics, but Zurich should be left as Zurich. --[[User:ZayZayEM|ZayZayEM]] 14:22, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:As I wrote above, I agree that English versions should be used when such exist (as with Zurich, for instance). In most cases, none do. If most English speakers know what diacritics are or not is irrelevant. Swedes usually make an effort to use '''Ü''' or '''Ç''' when writing German or French names, at least in texts intended for publication. I think English-speakers are capable of doing this with regard to other languages as well. It is not (primarily) a matter of cultural sensitivity, but of correctness. As I already pointed out, not making that minimal effort just looks uneducated and sloppy. Is that the impression you think Wikipedia should make? / [[User:Tupsharru|Tupsharru]] 14:52, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is no correct way! The customary way is to strip them in English. You think it looks uneducated and sloppy but you are not a native English speaker and althought there are English speakers who would agree with you, to me it seems fine to strip all funny foreign squiggles and lines. To strip them off is a simple and practical rule. An English speaker, or someone using English as the ''[[lingua franca]]'' of the modern age, does not have to try to guess what the correct squiggle is in a specific foreign grammar; Or how to make that character with a keyboard that does not have one; or what to use in a text search. two examples from the [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Transliteration]]:
* '''Munstereifel''' (German:''[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münstereifel Münstereifel]'')
* '''Altotting''' (German:''[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altötting Altötting]'')
Nice and simple! --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 23:05, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:I could just as easily claim that there is no "customary way" to do this in English, and could easily find a whole lot of published English texts which do use diacritics in foreign names or other words. I don't know if you are a monolingual English-speaker, but the fact that you may not realize is that by not using the correct spelling for these names you would be introducing a completely unnecessary ambiguity and uncertainty and creating false homonyms which could easily have been avoided. Whether you like it or not, these "funny foreign squiggles and lines" have meaning. / [[User:Tupsharru|Tupsharru]] 01:58, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes I only speak one English language, I did not know there was more than one. Perhapse you can LEAD me to the others. As most English readers have no idea what funny forign squiggles over and under words mean (Some might know one forign language, but very few would know more than two), so how does it introduce an "unnecessary ambiguity and uncertainty" to have a simple rule which says strip them? [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 12:29, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
:For instance, there is at present an article on [[Amal]], the Lebanese Muslim militia, and a different article on [[Åmål]], a town in Sweden. There is already a disambiguation on top of the [[Amal]] article to lead anyone right who may be looking for the Swedish town. In Swedish A and Å are two different vowels, one pronounced more or less like the English A in "large", the other like the A in "fall" (or the oa in "board", or whatever). Stripping the rings from on top of the A in this case would be like exchanging the large P and B in "Philip Baird Shearer" for an R with the argument that "Rhilip Raird Shearer" still looks more or less the same. By "stripping diacritics" you are actually exchanging one letter for another.
:Another example: ''[[Angstrom]]'' is a perfectly good English word spelled without diacritics and unambiguous in any context where it would be used. But it originates with a Swedish surname Ångström, as in the 19th century physicist and Uppsala professor [[Anders Jonas Ångström]]. In this case stripping diacritics would create ambiguity, as ''Angström'' or ''Ängström'' are also possible Swedish surnames, and the latter actually a quite common one, although more often spelled ''Engström''. (And the ending "-strom" is also possible, had the name been of German origin.) An alternative might be using oe and ae to represent ö and ä, but this creates ambiguity of a different kind, at least with personal names which may in many cases intentionally be spelled in a way differing from standardized Swedish spelling (''Wärn'', ''Waern'', ''Wærn'' or ''Wern'' – this is a real Swedish surname – are all pronounced the same, but for a particular person or family the distinction may be significant).
:In either case, stripping "funny forign squiggles" creates an unnecessary loss of information. Anyone who doesn't care about this information can just happily ignore it. Personally, I don't speak Spanish, but I know that there is a difference in pronunciation between a Spanish '''n''' and a Spanish '''[[ñ]]'''. I don't see any reason why it would be advantageous to me to see "[[El Niño]]" spelled as "El Nino" and I don't see how my lack of knowledge of Spanish grammar would be a problem or why the [[tilde]] would disturb me if I didn't know the difference. Even in cases where I may not know or appreciate the difference, I don't see any reason why any "squiggles" should be stripped in writing, unless there is a real technical problem, not just a matter of keyboard-related inconvenience. I don't see my own ignorance or the fact that I may need to fire up the character map to find a certain foreign letter as a reason it shouldn't be there when I look up the word in an Encyclopædia. / [[User:Tupsharru|Tupsharru]] 13:26, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If a language did not have "P" and a "B" in their alphabet then I see no problem with "Rhilip Raird Shearer" (particularly as PH is a funny combination anyway which I would not expect people not familiar with the English alphabet or similar to know how to pronounce). Thank you for highlighting El Niño as is a very good example of what I mean. If you search on El Nino then the El Niño page only occurs because fortuitously one of the external links http://www.pmel.noaa.gov/tao/elnino/el-nino-story.htm has el-nino in it otherwise that page would not show up. This page should be under the name without diacritics with a link to the name in the native language:
*'''El Nino''' (Spanish:'[http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Niño El Niño]
It is a simple rule that is easy to follow with no need to understand "funny foreign squiggles" or grammar rule, no keyboard-related inconvenience and it shows up in text searchs. If you have not been convinced by now then you will not be. So I will not say any more. [[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 14:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Since this has ceased to be about just Cities. I think that it is best if it is discussed in one place.
GOTO: [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Transliteration]] --[[User:Philip Baird Shearer|Philip Baird Shearer]] 14:49, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
==Name of this page==
As city has a specific meaning in certain nations (for instance in the UK a city is traditionaly a town with a cathedral, and currently has to be created by parliament IIRC) should this page not be called something like 'Naming conventions (place names)', or is the intention that it should only apply to the largest towns? --[[User:NeilTarrant|Neo]] 15:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:By ''city'', we mean any inhabited place. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 20:01, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::# Where is that stated?
::# Should it maybe be expressed at some more prominent ___location?
::# Is it good to use such a broad definition of ''city?''
::--[[User:Ruhrjung|Ruhrjung]] 04:27, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)
:::It's not really stated anywhere that I know of, it's just that the policy arose out of disputes concerning the names of cities, but the divisions that people make between cities and non-cities don't really make any sense from the standpoint of naming conventions. It would add needless complication of policy and potentially endless debate about what is and isn't a "city" when applying the policy. When talking about all named inhabited places, the word ''city'' is often used because it is simple even if under certain definitions the word is more restrictive. The ''essential character'' of a "city" is that it is a place where people live. Size of the city is only relevant when contrasted with ''towns'' or ''villages'', etc., which it is not here. I don't see any harm in continuing to use the name word ''city'': it is a common word that everyone understands. Please feel free to clarify the policy if you think people are liable to get confused. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 05:18, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::It should be clear that this is the case when considering the example "cities" noted in the policy: [[Elgin, Kershaw County, South Carolina]] has a population of only 809. Such a place would only be a city in the broadest definition of the word. I suppose it could be changed to "Naming conventions (municipality names)" but that seems like a needless invocation of a fancy word that is more likely to confuse than to clarify. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 05:22, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Nohat - I don't think anybody disagrees that these conventions should apply to populated locations that are not defined as cities. The problem, then, is that the current title ''suggests'' that it might only apply to cities. Municipality isn't really any better - [[Bethesda, Maryland]], for instance, is neither a municipality nor a city. "Place," on the other hand, seems far too broad. Not sure how to deal with this. Probably it would be best, as Ruhrjung says, to note that city in this instance means any populated locality. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 05:55, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
: Perhaps we could have "Wikipedia: Naming conventions (metropolis, city, suburbia, town, village, and hamlet names)"? ;-)
: More seriously, I think "Wikipedia: Naming conventions (places)" or, somewhat more uglily, "Wikipedia: Naming conventions (population centres)" would be fine enough.
: [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 06:53, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::Eh, I have to admit that I don't really care all that much, and whoever is bold in changing it won't likely get a fight from me. However, I think that "city" is sufficient, in analogy to e-commerce sites and such that ask for your address: street address, city, state, zip (or province, postal code, etc.) People understand what is meant by "city" even if where they live isn't technically a city. [[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 07:50, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::Yah, I think the name of the page is OK, but I wouldn't object if someone renamed it. Although, if we're going for a generic term, I think "town" may be somewhat less associated with a particular size or municipal status than city, although both are commonly used in a generic sense. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 13:09, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
I don't think town is any better. At least most people know that city can either mean "incorporated municipality calling itself a city" or "any locality where people live". Too many people seem to feel that town only means the latter, and not "incorporated municipality calling itself a town". [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 21:48, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:Um, well, sure. But I thought the problem with the term "city" was precisely that to many people is has strong associations with a particular municipal status or with a large population center, whereas this policy is intended to apply to a wide range of populated places. Either way makes little difference to me, but I thought town might be better because it was less restrictive than city. [[User:Bkonrad|older]]<font color=blue>'''≠'''</font>[[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 22:45, Jan 5, 2005 (UTC)
::I know this is beating a dead horse now, but I really think it's the other way around because forms and the like invariably ask for "city, state, zip". I have never seen a form ask for "town, state zip". Or when you call 411, it says "what city please?" or "what city and state please?"[[User:Nohat|Nohat]] 05:23, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
==UK placenames==
Proposal: Where possible, articles on places in the UK should go under [[placename]]. Where disambiguation is needed, they should go under:
*[[Placename, administrative county]] for English places - except places in Greater London, which should be at [[Placename, London]]
*[[Placename, County x]] for Northern Irish places
*[[Placename, council area]] for Scottish places
*[[Placename, principal area]] for Welsh places
*[[Placename, Isle of Man]] for Manx places
If the placename and administrative county are identical, in which case they should be at [[placename (city)]] or [[placename (town)]].
This proposal can be refined in future, but a basic consensus on the status quo would be a useful start. [[User:Warofdreams|Warofdreams]] 17:00, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:I'm not sure using administrative counties in England (which includes borough-sized unitary authorities) is a terribly good idea. Similarly using UAs in Scotland and Wales is not much good when the UAs are small or confusingly named, eg. Falkirk, Caerphilly, &c. Also what happens when these areas change name or area? Obviously me vote would be to use the [[traditional county]] name for disambiguation. [[User:Owain|Owain]] 10:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:I think we should use the [[traditional counties of Scotland]] (as using the [[subdivisions of Scotland]] would result in oddness (like [[X, East Renfrewshire]]) and using the [[Lieutenancy areas of Scotland]] would result in even more oddness (like [[X, Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale]])) and the [[ceremonial counties of England]]. I'm unsure about Welsh places, though. My instinct would be to use the [[preserved counties of Wales]], as the [[Subdivisions of Wales|principal areas of Wales]] have lots of small and not very helpful divisions, but I don't know how much the [[traditional counties of Wales]] are used. [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 11:32, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::IMO, if we're going to use the [[traditional counties of Scotland]] (Which I agree with, BTW) then we should use the traditional counties everywhere. The current lieutenancies are a mess and are subject to revisions to the LA 1997. I am against using the [[preserved counties of Wales]] as this will just cause more confusion. [[User:Owain|Owain]] 12:32, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::I think using anything other than what the place is currently in ie - the current administrative area - is going to lead to more confusion for the reader than anything else. We already battle over debates such as (just an example) ''Bletchley is in the traditional county of Buckinghamshire and in the unitary authority of Milton Keynes''. Moving the article that is currently at [[Bletchley, Milton Keynes]] to [[Bletchley, Buckinghamshire]] is going to muddy the waters of this debate and lead to more confusion, not less. The administrative boundaries don't change so often as to make page moves impossible should they change again. I think the current administrative area is the best approach, which is the approach employed at [http://www.streetmap.co.uk Streetmap] among others. -- [[User:Francs2000|Francs2000]] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Francs2000&action=edit§ion=new Talk] [[]] 15:14, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::But disambiguation should put places where normal people would describe them as being (as is suggested by the "most common name" policy), rather than where the government would describe them as being. No one, when asked "Where do you live?", is going to reply "I live in the Unitary Authority of Milton Keynes" or "I live in Roxburgh, Ettrick and Lauderdale". Obviously, a place's exact administrative ___location (or whatever you want to call it) is important, but it's not the natural way British people distinguish two places with the same name, as they almost always use the county instead. (As an aside, I've never looked at the Bletchley article, so I don't know what the debate there is about, but if you'd asked me ten minutes ago where Bletchley was I'd definitely have said "Buckinghamshire".) [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 15:41, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::::Deciding where normal people would place locations around the country is very subjective and may differ depending on point of view: for example younger people may say "I live in Bletchley, Milton Keynes" whereas older people may stick with "Bletchley, Buckinghamshire". Incidentally I only used Bletchley as an example because I didn't want to single out particular users. I do remember a very heated debate over the ___location of [[Eton, Berkshire]], a user whoshallremainnameless insisted that it was still [[Eton, Buckinghamshire]]. -- [[User:Francs2000|Francs2000]] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Francs2000&action=edit§ion=new Talk] [[]] 15:55, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::::Well, I'm hardly old. :-) Anyway, I'm not suggesting we use the traditional counties (I'm sure most people would say [[Solihull]] was in the [[West Midlands]] rather than [[Warwickshire]], for instance, and I really don't want to get into "Which county is X in?" arguments), but I think that using the administrative ones would be counter-intuitive and cumbersome ([[North East Lincolnshire]] and [[Bath and North East Somerset]] are hardly convenient disambiguation suffixes). [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 18:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:What about situations where there are two places with the same name in the same county? For example, it Buckinghamshire there is [[Burcott, Bierton, Buckinghamshire]] and [[Burcott, Wing, Buckinghamshire]]. Are these article names too long or are those respective names the most appropriate ___location for those articles? -- [[User:Francs2000|Francs2000]] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Francs2000&action=edit§ion=new Talk] [[]] 15:35, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::I'd say [[Burcott, Bierton]] and [[Burcott, Wing]] would probably suffice. We definitely don't want a US-style "disambiguate even when it's not needed" policy, with [[Buckingham, Buckinghamshire]] and the like. [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 15:45, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
:::No I agree. I was the one who actually disambiguated a lot of Buckingham links. I also had quite an argument with someone over the ___location of [[Aylesbury]] rather than [[Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire]]: he only ceded to my point of view after trying to fix the multitudinal links from A to A, B and giving up half way through. -- [[User:Francs2000|Francs2000]] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Francs2000&action=edit§ion=new Talk] [[]] 15:55, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
::::We should definitely insert a "default is no disambiguation" clause when we write the guidelines. [[User:Proteus|Proteus]] [[User_talk:Proteus|(Talk)]] 18:40, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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