Talk:Cyberpunk and Lawrence Anthony Earth Organization: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 04:45, 18 July 2007

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'''The Earth Organization''' is an independent, international [[non-profit]], [[non-partisan]], conservation and environmental organization, with new solutions, committed to the creative, responsible rehabilitation of planet Earth and the plant and animal kingdoms.

{{Mainpage date|November 29|2005}}

{{Talk Spoken Wikipedia|Cyberpunk.1.11.06.ogg}}

{{Maintained|[[User:Eluchil|Eluchil]]}}

{{oldpeerreview}}

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The Earth Organization was founded in 2003 by veteran [[South African]] conservationist [[Lawrence Anthony]].

The Earth Organization works in association with corporations and other environmental groups around the world in projects of mutual interest.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see [[Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page]].

==Purpose==

'''Previous discussions:'''

The stated purpose of The Earth Organization is:

#''To create a fundamental change in mankind’s awareness of, and relationship to, his environment and the plant and animal kingdoms, by example and education, thereby reversing the downward spiral of life on Earth.''

*[[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01|Archive 1 (circa August 2004 to 5 November 2005)]]: <small> [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Old talk|Miscellaneous old talk]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#John Varley|John Varley]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Book list overhaul|Book list overhaul]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#cyberpunk and anime|Cyberpunk and anime]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Reorganization|Reorganization]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Beware increasingly broad scope|Beware increasingly broad scope]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Band list and Nine Inch Nails|Band list and Nine Inch Nails]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Replies to hidden queries|Replies to hidden queries]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Quotation style|Quotation style]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Results of FAC|Results of FAC]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Dates|Dates]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Style & Neuromancer|Style & Neuromancer]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive01#Images|Images]]</small>

#''To bridge the gap between mankind, industry, commerce and the environment through applicable environmentalism, workable tools, accurate data and a business and scientific approach to the field of the environment.''

*[[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02|Archive 2 (6 November 2005 to 8 March 2006)]]: <small> [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#"The Matrix" as cyberpunk?|''The Matrix'' as cyberpunk?]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Anarchy Online|''Anarchy Online'']], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Good job|Good job]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#System Shock|System Shock]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#GURPS Cyberpunk|GURPS Cyberpunk]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Congrats on the featured article|Congrats on the featured article]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Bruce Sterling definition of cyberpunk|Bruce Sterling definition of cyberpunk]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Garbage text at top of article|Garbage text at top of article]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Ninja|Ninja]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Genre tendencies|Genre tendencies]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Some examples|Some examples]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Restored "Style" section|Restored "Style" section]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#We survived the Main Page!|We survived the Main Page!]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Spoken Wiki|Spoken Wiki]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Setting of Ghost in the Shell|Setting of ''Ghost in the Shell'']], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#eep|eep]], [[Talk:Cyberpunk/Archive02#Criticisms|Snarkiness of Criticisms section]]</small>

#''To raise ethical standards within the conservation movement.''

The Earth Organization has a strong scientific orientation and a reputation for bold conservation initiatives, including the rescue of the [[Baghdad zoo]] during the coalition [[invasion of Iraq]] in April 2003, negotiations with the infamous Ugandan [[Lords Resistance Army]], to protect game rangers and raise awareness of endangered species, including the [[Northern White Rhinoceros]], and work with remote rural African communities to rebuild cultural and traditional ties to nature.

Through the activities of its scientific advisory board, The Earth Organization forwards and supports environmental education, targeting different age and culture groups, with the intention of firmly entrenching environmental education as a part of the syllabus of educational institutions.

== Strange Days ==

The Earth Organization is registered as an independent non-profit organization in South Africa, with branches in the USA, France, Canada, Hungary and Slovakia.

I´m adding Strange Days to the list of films in the cyberpunk genre.

( That is, of course, unless someone disagrees... )

==External links==

Also, please, edit my contribution: i hate the way i phrased it and can´t find better ways of saying it ( right now )

*[http://www.earthorganization.org Official Website]

*[http://www.earthorganization.org/WhoWeAre.aspx?CatID=1 The Earth Organization Scientific Advisory Board]

*[http://www.lawrenceanthony.co.za Founder of The Earth Organization]

[[category:animal charities]]

Gorsh

[[category:Environmental organizations based in South Africa]]

== Opening Section ==

I'm sorry, but the sentence:

"''Unlike New Wave Science Fiction, which featured the importation of stylistic techniques and concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large, cyberpunk originated in the science fiction genre first before gaining mainstream exposure''"

is at least both rather unclear in execution and contains redundant clauses, and at worst fallacious in its intended claim. What, precisely, is this contributor attempting to say? The two clauses in the sentence seem to have been linked as an attempt to highlight a contrast by the nature of their semantic symmetry, but it is not actually clear that they are discussing the same issue. By its association with the first clause, the second clause seems to imply that New Wave Science Fiction did not represent an evolution of SF per se, but rather was literature that became SF after "gaining mainstream exposure". Generally, there appears to be a peculiar circularity in the second clause regarding the "origin" of Cyberpunk. Furthermore, it appears to contain a rather redundant claim: I would have thought that if something "originates" somewhere, then by definition it does so in that place "first". Regarding the first clause, is it actually the case that Cyberpunk, "Unlike New Wave Science Fiction" did not "import" "stylistic techniques" or "concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large"? Anybody who has actually read, for example, Gibson's collection "Burning Chrome" would hesitate to agree to the former claim (eg. the non-linear chronology in "Fragments of a Hologram Rose"). Regarding the assertion about Cyberpunk not "Importing" pre-existing cultural "concerns", surely this contributor is not seriously attempting to claim that Cyberpunk came out of an artistic and social vacum? I would have edited this passage myself, but I am honestly not entirely clear that I understand what, precisely, the original contributor intended. Rather than impose my own views regarding the stylistic differences and origins of New Wave and Cyberpunk respectively, I was hoping that perhaps the original writer could revise this passage.

[[User:Dusksailor|Dusksailor]] 13:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

== Johnny Mnemonic ==

"William Gibson has also been adapted: Johnny Mnemonic (1995) was not successful, but detailed Gibson's world rather faithfully."

Having seen the movie and read the story (Chapter 1 of the "Burning Chrome" compilation,) I have to disagree, but I feel it would be a bit hasty to just delete it without discussion.

Basically, the movie took a page or two from a ~20-page story, then stretched it to feature length and crammed it with filler... The world was de-cyberpunked and sanitized to a more or less contemporary non-fiction state. In the end, the movie bore more than a coincidental resemblance to the original story, but that's hardly a faithful representation.

* It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and it certainly took some creative license with Gibson's story, but the core of the dystopian world described in the story is still there in the film. I don't really see how one could consider The Free State of New Jersey "contemporary", or the sentient dolphin "non-fiction." Regardless of critical acclaim (or lack thereof), both the story and the movie are classic examples of cyberpunk fiction. [[User:Simishag|Simishag]] 01:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

** "detailed <nowiki>[...]</nowiki> rather faithfully" is wrong, pure and simple. From this, I'd expect a movie that is a lot closer to the story than that movie actually was. "lo-tek"? No-show. A pretty important no-show if you ask me. In the genre of cyberpunk, that is. (Not "dystopian fiction" or whatever that may be called). Molly? "castrated" if you will. She doesn't even play that big a part, she comes across as rather a "damsell in distress" than the other way around. So, in conclusion, it might contain what you see as Gibson's world (and he wrote the screenplay... but how much of that was left in the released movie?). But the comment is misleading because people could (and will) think that the story and the movie are counterparts, when they're anything but. --[[User:Jae|jae]] 17:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

* I won't dispute any of those points, but they belong on a page for JM, in a comparison of the story and the screenplay. It is way too much detail for this article. The movie has obvious cyberpunk influences and references, and it deserves a mention here. I will add a short note about creative license. [[User:Simishag|Simishag]] 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

* Molly was not in the movie Johnny Mnemonic. The female character was called Jane, and had little resemblence to the book character. [[User:67.182.147.140|67.182.147.140]] 17:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

== editorializing ==

there is a great deal of non-NPOV editorializing in this article as it currently stands. I'm making several changes which should neutralize the tone of the article a bit. most specifically, as it currently stands, there is a lot of "Most critics say" or "critics agree that" stuff going on that is specifically editorial. For example, if you want to say that some critics think that the new wave writers of the sixties were more innovative than the cyberpunk writers, that's fine, but you need to sight a source and not explain it as though it were received wisdom or common knowledge, and confine it to the section specifically set aside for criticism.[[User:JFQ|JFQ]] 19:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

* The term "post-cyberpunk" is listed way to prominently here. This appears to be an article posted by one individual (Persson), and is intended to define all works from 1993 and onward. Yet this is really a distinction without meaning. Even the works cited (Transmetropolitan, for instance) bare absolutely no resemblance to the concept expressed. In short, Post-cyberpunk, to the extent that its expressed at all, should be posed as a theory by one individual, and not a term widely adopted. The number of counter-examples to this term in all medias after 1993 far outwiegh the actual ones that apply. --[[User:Sfam|Sfam]] 22:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

== Criticism section is a disaster ==

From section ''Criticism'':

Far too vague wording, just who are these persons? Cite? References?

*A variety of commentators have taken...

*...but are said by some feminist critics not...

*Critics writing from this viewpoint...

*Some of these critics have claimed...

There is more, but already this is far too much. Please refer to notable sources or it will be necessary to add a tidy request to the section.

Next we have this gem: '''Some critics also view the protagonists of cyberpunk as highly Americanized, "cowboys" poised against the collectivist world of Japanese corporations or against European financial dynasties.'''

Leaving aside just who these '''some''' may be the rest does not work out either. It completely neglects the cyberpunk works of Japan and South Korea (ref Cyberpunkreview for numerous supporting examples) and suffers therefor a US-centric view. Financial dynasties is perhaps a reference (too vague again) to the dynasty in Straylight but again is insufficient to extrapolate to a trend.

But there is more: '''It has been argued that this repeated use of the cowboy theme meshes well with the images associated with Ronald Reagan''' Is this relevant at all? You could make the same nonsensical argument to any actor or politician playing up the ruggedness card.

And again: '''A recurrent criticism of cyberpunk is that it assumes a dualistic picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of Descartes, and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some feminist critics.''' Well, just ''why'' is this a concern and why to these (nameless) feminist critics?

One possible reference for the latter (criticism of dualism in the context of feminist/gender theory) is this: Foster, Thomas: "Meat Puppets or Robopaths?: Cyberpunk and the Question of Embodiment." Genders, 18 (1993): pp. 11-31.

The entire section is noting short of a total disaster and is in serious need of rewrite or flat out removal.

--[[User:85.164.89.133|85.164.89.133]] 14:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree that Criticism section reads like author has an anti-cyberpunk agenda of some sort. Worse yet, as the previous writer indicates, it contains many unsubstantiated claims. Thus I'd also recommend a comprehensive rewrite or deletion. The inclusion of Brin's sour grapes comments strikes me as particularly silly. I also wonder why Gibson is not quoted more extensively, here and elsewhere in the article, Sterling as well.

On a purely egotistical note, I can't resist suggesting that some of my own contributions, several available online, be linked to. See http://www.dthomasmaddox.com.

[[User:Dthomasmaddox|Tom Maddox]] 18:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

*While I agree with the critiques poised on general terms, they are not adequately put forth in the article as it stands. Those of us with inquisitive mindsets would probably do well to chart out the literary circles in search of concrete, verifiable claims, in form of book reviews, essays &c.

*As it stands, there is too much that is weaselly or plain nebulous in the section, and it provides no useful knowledge for the knowlessman in search of more information of the topic of cyberpunk critique. It is, essentially, a cul-de-sac full of "some" and "certain critics", with no way out for the erudite seeker of truth. We need names and dates, direct quotes from the instigators of specific critcal viewpoints if at all possible. If these critiques are as prevalent as we are led to believe, surely finding someone, anyone in the literary criticism sphere to function as a reality anchor. --[[User:Agamemnon2|Agamemnon2]] 07:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

:There's very little good in that section. I am for sexual equality but it seems like an overzealous feminist punched a few lines in there:

:"Some of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their masculinity by dominating a technology described with female metaphors — in essence, through metaphorical rape."

:--[[User:A Sunshade Lust|A Sunshade Lust]] 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

More than a month has passed with no resolution so I tagged the offending parts of the criticism section as well as the article itself. Googling reveals nothing that seems credible in backing up these alleged criticisms but as a non-expert I'd rather leave that judgement to others. If usable sources cannot be found I suggest the entire criticims section be wiped.

--19:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

: Latest rounds is that the entire criticism section was [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cyberpunk&diff=59916426&oldid=59812162 wiped] and 15 minutes later [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cyberpunk&diff=59917382&oldid=59916426 restored] though without ''rv'' tagging and no comments in the talk section. I am in favour of deleting it since quite a long time has passed and noone has come up with citations. Anyone else? --21:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

==Citation needed?==

Concerning the sentence below and the one that follows: Is a citation needed? If someone has read both works and the sentence is true no need for validation of a critic.

>Further, while Neuromancer's narrator may have had an unusual "voice" for science fiction, much older examples can be found: Gibson's narrative voice, for example, resembles that of an updated Raymond Chandler, as in his novel The Big Sleep (1939).[citation needed

==Biopunk or Ribofunk?==

In two places the term "biopunk" is used especially in reference to Di Flippo's writing. I have seen "ribofunk" much more commonly used - see for example Sterling's recent collection "Visionary in Residence" and his discription of a story ("The Scab's Progress") that is a collaboration between Di Flippo and him. Note: I would have rather seen "ribofunk" exclusively used, but out of respect I left "biopunk" also in place. [[User:24.183.236.246|24.183.236.246]] 01:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Joseki

== Do us a Favour ==

Could any of yous give me the names of some novel etc i should read...what do you recomend...you can message my talk page cheers

Nothing too obtuse or outdated...something to get me in on the scene if you know what i mean....thanks [[User:Owwmykneecap|Owwmykneecap]] 05:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

:Read the article. [[User:Dposse|dposse]] 21:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

::[[Neuromancer]]

:::I'm sorry but Neuromancer, althought it is my favourite, and is considered ''the'' archetypal cyberpunk novel, is quite obtuse, and pretty much outdated. From the same author, I'd go for the Bridge Trilogy: Virtual Light, Idoru, and Tomorrow's Parties.--[[User:$yD!|SidiLemine]] 10:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

==Back to the Future II in the list of Dick-based cyberpunk?==

In the section on Film and Television, it says:

"Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen, with cyberpunk elements typically becoming dominant; examples include Back To The Future II (1989), Demolition Man (1993), Timecop (1994), Twelve Monkeys (1995), Minority Report (2002), and Paycheck (2003)"

What Dick work is BTTF II based on?--[[User:Ragesoss|ragesoss]] 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

==Removed pending citations==

I've removed this section as it doesn't [[WP:CITE|provide citations]]. The article is a really good read, and I'm not surprised it became an FA, although it would be nice to have more Free-use images. I'm not sure if the one on Lain would be allowed here under fair use. - [[User:f-m-t|FrancisTyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 09:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

:Note, I'm not saying that this section is necessarily wrong, indeed some of the criticism seems well founded, but it could do with less [[Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words|weasel words]] and some more citations. Also, drop the fair use image. I'm sure a Free use image of a "razorgirl" could be found. - [[User:f-m-t|FrancisTyers]] [[User_talk:f-m-t|·]] 09:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

===Criticisms===

[[:Image:TrinityMatrixCharacter.jpg]] - [[Trinity (The Matrix)|Trinity]], heroine of the ''Matrix'' trilogy, is an example of the "razorgirl" type.]]

A variety of commentators{{Citation needed}} have taken the "[[canon (fiction)|canonical]]" cyberpunk works to task, pointing out dubious aspects of the genre. For example, many of the genre's heroines take after [[Neuromancer|''Neuromancer'']]<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Molly, becoming "[[razorgirl]]s", who may have [[sex appeal]] for a male [[science fiction]] readership but are said by some{{Citation needed}} [[feminist literary criticism|feminist critics]] not to be [[women's liberation|liberated]] or well-developed as characters. Critics{{Citation needed}} writing from this viewpoint tend to find presence of such characters disturbing, particularly when compared to female protagonists in unequivocally [[dystopia]]n science fiction (e.g., [[Margaret Atwood]]'s ''[[The Handmaid's Tale]]''). Some{{Citation needed}} of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their [[masculinity]] by dominating a technology described with female [[metaphor]]s &mdash; in essence, through metaphorical [[rape]].

A recurrent criticism{{Citation needed}} of cyberpunk is that it assumes a [[Dualism (philosophy of mind)|dualistic]] picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of [[Descartes]], and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some{{Citation needed}} feminist critics. However, other critics{{Citation needed}} have seen cyberpunk as projecting a more sophisticated and modern picture of the mind and its relationship to the body, one that should not be confused with [[Cartesian dualism]] and has more to do with [[cognitive science]].

==Fashion==

Where can I find out more about cyberpunk as a fasion style, I saw a girl today whering lots of neon, false dreadlock (with neon woven in) chucky shoes, lots of peircig , I would like to find out more about the origins of this as a sub-culture [[User:Back ache|Back ache]] 18:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

==Cowboy Bebop==

Is Cowboy Bebop actually a cyberpunk series? To me it fits in a broader Sci-Fi scope: The time is distant (colonizing of the solar system), the theme is clearly not a "man vs. tech", or any other cyberpunk usual themes, the mood is, if not cheery, light, and settings are very often in open space, rather than neon-lit back-alleys. Plus the network plays a very little role. I agree that "post-cyberpunk" is too easy a term, but there is a new trend of space-opera developping, more centered on individuals, local communities, and the difficulties of expansion in the solar system in whitch Cowboy Bebop fits more neatly. Anyone has a name for it?

[[User:82.151.86.114|82.151.86.114]] 16:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

:I would say that Cowboy Bebop is not a cyberpunk series. The genre doesn't really fit in any fashion beyond being science fiction. Cowboy Bebop is usually considered a space western, if anything at all, since the series was designed to break down genre barriers and focus more on characters and attitude. [[User:Kasha.re|&#39;Kash]] 20:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

::Well, there was that one episode, [[List of Cowboy Bebop episodes#23: Brain Scratch|Brain Scratch]], that was definitely cyberpunk. And Ed is a very cyberpunk character. But in general, you're right, you can't really pigeonhole it like that. —[[User:Keenan Pepper|Keenan Pepper]] 00:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

:::Ya, I wouldn't want to define an entire series based on the vents of one episode. The majority of it doesn't really seem to fit the bill. [[User:Kasha.re|&#39;Kash]] 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Space Western is not bad at all, but I find it hard to coin a genre for a single series. Instead I'd very much like to find a genre in which Planetes would fit too...--SidiLemine 15:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

==64.132.236.33's edits==

I don't understand some of the edits you made. Several of them are rather significant.

--There wasn't anything wrong with the statement in the lead paragraph

--Postnational settings aren't necessarily a defining characteristic of cyberpunk, nor is urban decay.

--GitS:SAC isn't that typical of an example of postcyberpunk, even though it may fit into the category. It also isn't particularly prominent in the category, and is also a series adaptation of the more popular movie.

--There wasn't much reason to remove the explanation of Neuromancer, as it fits under the literature category.

[[User:Xombie|Xombie]] 10:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

== Paranoia? ==

Forgive my status of being a malcontent, but...

I have a hard time swallowing the line stating that cyberpunk has been featured in "Computer games, board games and role-playing games (such as Paranoia)"... If you've ever played Paranoia, I can't fathom "cyberpunk" having anything to do with it. Heck, the entire White-Wolf game line has more cyberpunk!

Paranoia is a game based upon the concept of "mostly unrestrained silliness" in laymans terms. All which is cyberpunk is rooted in "dark, grittty future". Let me tell you friends, there is nothing dark or gritty about being killed by scrubbots. Paranoia assumes you will die in 6 ridiculous ways every adventure.

At any rate, could I assume that there would be no objections to simply replacing the reference to Paranoia with another game which actually ''is'' cyberpunk?

I'm thinking Shadowrun would be an easy and logical choice, although the prevalence of magic doesn't really fit in with a classic definition of the genre, which brings to mind Cyberpunk 2020, which more tightly fits the ideal.

I'll ask here before correcting the error. This was, apparently, a featured article after all, regardless of inaccuracies.

[[User:CameronB|CameronB]] 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

:Agreed. I found it hard too; but when I thought about it, the (halas too) obvious replacement was Cyberpunk itself, and you can understand why that's not really convenient (a tad too easy if I may say). Shadowrun, as you pointed, is a bit tricky too. Althought it tries hard to stick to the background, it always ends up in some prophetic Fantasy story. Other options include GURPS; Transhuman Space (a bit too far ahead IMO), Bitume MK5 and Berlin XVIII (two french games of little notoriety), and the third edition of the white wolf series. Be bold. --[[User:$yD!|SidiLemine]] 10:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

::Very well then, consider the Edits completed. Hmm... I must say I'm suprised that I was able to actually come up with a reason to make an edit on the sight. [[User:CameronB]] [[User:65.102.93.45|65.102.93.45]] 19:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

== Blade Runner and cyberpunk ==

The paragraph "Many influential films such as Blade Runner and the Matrix trilogy can be seen as prominent outgrowths of the genre's styles and themes" is for sure correct about The Matrix, but probably wrong about Blade Runner. The latter was shot in 1981 and released in 1982, so I don't think it could be an outgrowth of the cyberpunk genre, which was yet to be defined at that time (AFAIK). I don't do the edit myself because I'm not completely sure, though.

--[[User:Danmaz74|Danmaz74]] 23:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)