Titus Oates and Talk:1941 Odessa massacre: Difference between pages

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{{WikiProject Russian History}}

'''Titus Oates''' ([[1649]] - [[1705]]) was a [[17th century]] [[perjury|perjurer]] who fabricated a fraudulent [[Catholic]] plot to kill [[Charles II of England|King Charles II of England]].

==message==

To the original author of this article: It is a sad fact that Wikipedia articles don't quote their sources, especially when they deal with controversial political events. It goes without saying that the Romanians who will read this article will be skeptical about it and will doubt of its truth. (Many people in Romania consider Antonescu as a national hero and are reluctant to admit any Romanian responsibility for the Holocaust). I am ready to admit that they are not guilty for this, they just lack knowledge.

This article says "General Ion Antonescu ordered from Bucharest that for every killed Romanian and German officer, 200 Jews and Communists were to be killed, and for every soldier, 100 were to be executed. All the Communists were to be imprisoned and one person was to be taken hostage from every Jewish family".

Titus Oates was born in [[Oakham]] into a family of [[Baptist]] clergyman. He was educated in [[Caius College, Cambridge]] and became an [[Anglican]] minister but was dismissed due to "drunken [[blasphemy]]" and allegations of [[sodomy]].

My question is: if this is a historically undisputable fact, why is not the order issued by Antonescu scanned and put on the internet, so that no one should doubt about the atrocities ordered by Antonescu? I think that there is such an order, written on a piece of paper which was preserved after the fall of Antonescu regime and was probably used at his trial against him. If it could be made available to any person interested, then it would be impossible for any person with a minimal moral conscience to consider Antonescu as a positive hero.

A few months later, he became a [[curate]] and [[Vicar]] of the parish of [[Bobbing]] in [[Sussex]]. He was expelled for [[theft]], [[drunkenness]], and alleged [[sodomy]].

So:

In [[1677]] he got himself appointed as a [[chaplain]] of the ship ''Adventurer'' in the English navy. He was soon caught and accused of [[buggery]] and spared only because of his clergyman's status. Sodomy was a capital offence in those days. He fled and temporarily joined the [[Jesuits]].

(1) is there such a document written/signed by Antonescu?

(2) can it be scanned and made available online?

And - obviously - if there is not such a document, what is the evidence for the claim made in the Wikipedia article? laurian {{unsigned|84.109.154.227}}

Oates was involved with the Jesuit houses of [[Valladodi]] and [[St. Omer]]. Later he claimed that he had pretended to become a Catholic to learn about the secrets of the Jesuits. Before he left, he heard about a planned Jesuit meeting in [[London]]. He later claimed that he had become a Catholic doctor of Divinity. When he returned to London he befriended the rabid anti-Catholic clergyman [[Israel Tonge]].

== restoring traditional title ==

In August 1678 an acquaintance of the king Charles II, [[Christopher Kirkby]], warned the king about a plot to assassinate him. It did not surface. Later, Israel Tonge approached the king and claimed he was aware of a complex plot including the Jesuits, the English Catholics and [[Louis XIV of France|King Louis XIV of France]]. The King was not impressed but made the mistake of handing the matter over to the anti-Catholic [[Earl of Danby]], who was more willing to listen. Tonge introduced him to Oates.

Please do not move articles to controversial names without consensus. I did not see a discussion regarding the move to [[Odessa Holocaust]], therefore I am restoring the long-standing name. If there are going to be other articles named [[Odessa massacre]], then we could discuss [[WP:DISAMBIG]]. Perhaps [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or some such would be appropriate, but I dislike parentheses in titles. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 03:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

On [[September 6]], [[1678]] Oates and Tonge approached [[Edmund Berry Godfrey|Sir Edmund Berry Godfrey]], an Anglican magistrate. Oates claimed that he had a proof of a Catholic plot to assassinate the King and replace him with his Catholic brother James, the Duke of York (future [[James II of England|James II]]). Then all the leading Protestants would be killed.

==Odessa Holocaust==

The King's council interrogated Oates. On [[September 28]] he made 43 allegations against various members of Catholic [[monastic order]]s - including 541 Jesuits - and numerous Catholic nobles. He accused [[George Wakeman|Sir George Wakeman]], the queen's physician, and [[Edward Coleman]], the secretary to the [[Duchess of York]], of planning to assassinate the king. Although he probably selected the names randomly or with the help of the Earl of Danby, Coleman was found to have corresponded with a French Jesuit, which condemned him. Wakeman was later acquitted.

Hi! There is nothing too wrong in titling [[Odessa massacre]], but the very name of event historically is reffered to the masssacre that occured in [[Odessa]] in 1905 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Potemkin#Arrival_in_Odessa]. So, it could be more correct to call the extermination of Jews traditionaly a Holocaust to avoid any misunderstanding of the title. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 18:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Others he accused included doctor [[William Fogarty]] and Archbishop [[Peter Talbot]] of [[Dublin]]. With the help of the Earl of Danby the list grew to 81 accusations. William Fogarty died in prison in [[1678]].

: As in other similar cases in WP, I think it would be proper to reserve the title [[Odessa massacre]] for the most famous/infamous one and have [[WP:REDIRECT]]s and [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]]s for other tragedies that scholarly sources may refer to as "Odessa massacre". Perhaps the best name for this one would be [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or [[Odessa massacre (1941)]]. In general, [[The Holocaust]] (Ha-Shoah) is a common name for the [[genocide]] of European Jews, therefore I don't think [[Odessa Holocaust]] is an encyclopedic title. Right now it is a redirect to [[Odessa massacre]]. Thanks. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Oates was given a squad of soldiers and he begun to round up Jesuits, including those who had helped him in the past. He arrested maybe 80 people in total.

:: Right You are. But it can be called Holocaust in Odessa, like [[Holocaust in Poland]], [[Holocaust in Romania]], [[Holocaust in Estonia]]. But the word Holocaust must be present, firstly, to avoid double meaning (The Odessa Massacre of 1905). And it really was a Holocaust and not an abstract massacre! So, the "Odessa massacre (Holocaust)", proposed by You, or "Odessa Holocaust Massacre" or, as it was, "Odessa Holocaust" or "Holocaust in Odessa" would be a nice title for the redirection, because this word must be present. What is your opinion? Very often I pass along the mass graves of it, and I know that a massacre is something caotic, but in Odessa it was not like this, it was a very well organized process of extermination. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The [[lord chief justice]], [[William Scroggs|Sir William Scroggs]], began a trial against the "Popish Plot". Edward Coleman was sentenced to death on [[December 3]], [[1678]] for treason and was hanged to unconsciousness, castrated, disembowelled, quartered, and beheaded in succession.

::: Let's continue the discussion here. I am copying the above from our talk pages over here and requesting more opinions from [[Talk:The Holocaust]]''. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

On [[October 12]], Sir Edmund Berry Godfrey disappeared for five days and then was found dead in [[Primrose Hill]]. He had been strangled and his sword had been driven through his body. Oates exploited this incident to launch a public campaign against the Papists and spread a rumor that the murder had been the work of the Jesuits. King Charles heard about the unrest, returned to London and summoned Parliament.

King Charles still did not believe in Titus's accusations. However, Parliament and public opinion forced him to order an investigation. Charles's opponents, who disliked his "Catholic" court and his Catholic wife [[Catherine of Braganza]], exploited the situation. One of the most prominent was [[Anthony Ashley Cooper, 1st Earl of Shaftesbury]].

Hysteria continued. Noblewomen carried firearms if they had to venture outdoors at night. Houses were searched for hidden guns - mostly without any significant result. Some Catholic widows tried to ensure their safety by marrying Anglican widowers. The [[British House of Commons|House of Commons]] was searched - without result - in case of another [[Gunpowder Plot]].

Oates became more daring and accused five Catholic lords (including those of [[Arundel]] and [[Bellasys]]) for involvement of the plot. The King reputedly laughed at the accusations but the Earl of Shaftesbury had the lords arrested and sent to the [[Tower of London|Tower]]. Then Shaftesbury publicly demanded that the King's brother James should be excluded from the [[royal succession]]. On [[November 5]], [[1678]], people burned effigies of the [[Pope]] instead of those of [[Guy Fawkes]]. At the end of the year the parliament issued a bill, a second [[Test Act]], that excluded Catholics from both Houses.

On [[November 24]], Oates claimed that the Queen was working with the King's physician to poison him and enlisted the aid of "Captain" [[William Bedloe]] who was ready to claim anything he was paid for. The King interrogated Oates and caught him out in a number of inaccuracies and lies. He ordered Oates to be arrested but Parliament forced him to release Oates a couple of days later with the threat of constitutional crisis.

Any people even suspected of being Catholic were driven out of London and forbidden to return within ten miles of the city. Silk armour was produced for fashionable ladies and gentlemen. There was also a playing card set with key figures of the scandal as face cards.

Oates, in turn, received a state apartment in [[Whitehall]] and an annual allowance of £1,200. He was not ready to stop, however, and soon presented new allegations. He claimed that assassins intended to shoot the king with silver bullets so the wound would not heal. The public invented its own stories, including a tale of sounds of digging near the House of Commons and rumours of a French invasion in the [[Isle of Purbeck]]. The "purge" spread to the countryside.

Oates was heaped with praise. He asked the [[College of Arms]] to check his lineage and produce a [[coat of arms]] for him. They gave him the arms of a family that had died out. There were even rumours that Oates was to be married to one of the Earl of Shaftesbury's daughters.

However, public opinion begun to turn against Oates. Judge Scroggs began to declare people innocent - after he had had at least 15 probably innocent men executed. The last one was [[Oliver Plunkett]], the [[archbishop]] of [[Armargh]], who was executed on July 1, [[1681]]. The King began to plot countermeasures.

On [[August 31]], 1681 Oates was told to leave his apartments in Whitehall. Oates was undeterred and denounced the King, the Duke of York and just about anyone he regarded as an opponent. He was arrested for sedition, sentenced to a fine of £100,000 and thrown into prison.

When James II acceded to the throne, he had a score to settle. He had Oates retried and sentenced for perjury to ''annual'' [[pillory]], loss of his priestly habit and imprisoned for life. Oates was taken out of his cell wearing a hat with the text "''Titus Oates, convicted upon full evidence of two horrid perjuries''". Oates was put into the pillory at the gate of [[Westminster Hall]] and passers-by pelted him with eggs. He was pilloried in London the next day and a third day stripped, tied to a cart and whipped from [[Aldgate]] to [[Newgate]]. The next day, the whipping resumed.

Oates spent the next three years in prison. At the accession of [[William III of England|William of Orange]] and [[Mary II of England|Mary]] in [[1688]] he was pardoned and granted a pension of £5 a week but his reputation did not significantly recover. The pension was suspended after accession of Queen Mary but in [[1698]] was restored and increased to £300 a year. Titus Oates died on July 12-13, 1705.