Turkish Land Forces and Talk:1941 Odessa massacre: Difference between pages

Revision as of 08:28, 11 September 2005

Revision as of 22:37, 18 July 2007

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{{WikiProject Russian History}}

==message==

To the original author of this article: It is a sad fact that Wikipedia articles don't quote their sources, especially when they deal with controversial political events. It goes without saying that the Romanians who will read this article will be skeptical about it and will doubt of its truth. (Many people in Romania consider Antonescu as a national hero and are reluctant to admit any Romanian responsibility for the Holocaust). I am ready to admit that they are not guilty for this, they just lack knowledge.

This article says "General Ion Antonescu ordered from Bucharest that for every killed Romanian and German officer, 200 Jews and Communists were to be killed, and for every soldier, 100 were to be executed. All the Communists were to be imprisoned and one person was to be taken hostage from every Jewish family".

{|border=1 width=270 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 align=right

|colspan=2 align=center bgcolor=green|'''Turkish Army'''

'''Türk Kara Kuvvetleri'''

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|[[Image:Turkish Land Forces (Army).gif]]

|-

|td colspan=2 align=center|'''Military manpower'''

|-

|Conscription age||20 years of age

|-

|Availability||males age 18-49: 19,828,702 (2004 est.)

|-

|Fit for military service||males age 15-49: 11,965,262 (2004 est.)

|-

|Active troops||514,850 ([[List of countries by number of active troops|Ranked 9th]])

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|'''Military expenditures'''

|-

|[[USD]] figure||$12.155 billion (2004) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html]

|-

|Percent of GDP||5.3% (2004) [http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2034rank.html]

|}

Branch of [[Turkish Armed Forces]], at a short notice, '''Turkish [[Army]]''' (officialy known as '''Turkish Land Forces''') (Turkish: ''Türk Kara Kuvvetleri'') can deploy 90,000 to 100,000 men strength Army Corps to conduct joint operations. The total number of troops is around 1,000,000. Turkish Army can conduct air assault operations with lift capability of 5 or 6 battalions at a time day and night.

My question is: if this is a historically undisputable fact, why is not the order issued by Antonescu scanned and put on the internet, so that no one should doubt about the atrocities ordered by Antonescu? I think that there is such an order, written on a piece of paper which was preserved after the fall of Antonescu regime and was probably used at his trial against him. If it could be made available to any person interested, then it would be impossible for any person with a minimal moral conscience to consider Antonescu as a positive hero.

Commander in Chief: General [[Hilmi Özkök]]

So:

Branch General: General [[Yaşar Büyükanıt]]

(1) is there such a document written/signed by Antonescu?

(2) can it be scanned and made available online?

And - obviously - if there is not such a document, what is the evidence for the claim made in the Wikipedia article? laurian {{unsigned|84.109.154.227}}

==History==

Turkish Army, later lead by [[Kemal Atatürk|Mustafa Kemal Atatürk]], played a critical role during the Turkish independece war after the end of [[World War I]]. Turkish Army held a number of successfull camapigns against Russian and Armenian millitaries on the Eastern front, against Itallian, French, and British millitaries on the Soulthern front, and against Greek millitary on the western front.

== restoring traditional title ==

After the independence war, Turkish millitary did not participate in any conflict including [[World War II]] aside from several internal issues untill the [[Korean War]] ([[1950]]–[[1953]]).

Please do not move articles to controversial names without consensus. I did not see a discussion regarding the move to [[Odessa Holocaust]], therefore I am restoring the long-standing name. If there are going to be other articles named [[Odessa massacre]], then we could discuss [[WP:DISAMBIG]]. Perhaps [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or some such would be appropriate, but I dislike parentheses in titles. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 03:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Under [[AFSOULTH]], The [[Allied Land Forces Southeastern Europe]] (LANDSOUTHEAST) was established in [[18 February]] [[1952]] with its headquarters is in [[Izmir]] to be commanded by a [[United States Army]] general officer with who would have Turkish and Greek general officers as his deputies. LANDSOUTHEAST was officialy established on [[8 September]] [[1952]], when the US [[General]] [[Willard G. Wyman]] assumed command. LANDSOUTHEAST headquarters were innitialy established at [[Şirinyer]], [[Izmir]] and was initially staffed by [[Turkey|Turkish]], [[Greece|Greek]] and [[United States]] military personnel as well as [[NATO]] international civilians. In [[1954]], representation was extended to [[France|French]], [[Italy|Italian]] and [[United Kingdom]] military personnel. It was at this time that LANDSOUTHEAST moved to its newly constructed headquarters building to [[Alsancak]], [[Izmir]]. Later in [[1966]] [[French]] military personnel were withdrawn from LANDSOUTHEAST followed by the [[Greece|Greek]] withdrawal in [[1974]].

==Odessa Holocaust==

On [[30 December]] [[1977]], [[SHAPE]] and Turkish military authorities announced another change in the command structure of LANDSOUTHEAST to be effective [[1 July]] [[1978]]. The LANDSOUTHEAST command structure was now lead by a Turkish four star Army general with a US [[Major General]] as his deputy. On [[30 June]] [[1978]], [[General]] [[Sam Walker]] handed over the command to [[General]] [[Vecihi Akin]] as the first Turkish commander of LANDSOUTHEAST.

Hi! There is nothing too wrong in titling [[Odessa massacre]], but the very name of event historically is reffered to the masssacre that occured in [[Odessa]] in 1905 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Potemkin#Arrival_in_Odessa]. So, it could be more correct to call the extermination of Jews traditionaly a Holocaust to avoid any misunderstanding of the title. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 18:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

On [[20 July]] [[1974]] Turkish Army responed to a coup sponored by [[Greece]] in [[Cyprus]] and continues to maintain millitary presence, the [[Cyprus Turkish Peace Forces]].

: As in other similar cases in WP, I think it would be proper to reserve the title [[Odessa massacre]] for the most famous/infamous one and have [[WP:REDIRECT]]s and [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]]s for other tragedies that scholarly sources may refer to as "Odessa massacre". Perhaps the best name for this one would be [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or [[Odessa massacre (1941)]]. In general, [[The Holocaust]] (Ha-Shoah) is a common name for the [[genocide]] of European Jews, therefore I don't think [[Odessa Holocaust]] is an encyclopedic title. Right now it is a redirect to [[Odessa massacre]]. Thanks. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

The Turkish army has been engaged in a conflict with the [[Kurdish people|Kurdish]] separatist group [[Kurdistan Workers Party]] (PKK) since the early 1980s. The fighting, mainly concentrated in southeastern [[Turkey]].

:: Right You are. But it can be called Holocaust in Odessa, like [[Holocaust in Poland]], [[Holocaust in Romania]], [[Holocaust in Estonia]]. But the word Holocaust must be present, firstly, to avoid double meaning (The Odessa Massacre of 1905). And it really was a Holocaust and not an abstract massacre! So, the "Odessa massacre (Holocaust)", proposed by You, or "Odessa Holocaust Massacre" or, as it was, "Odessa Holocaust" or "Holocaust in Odessa" would be a nice title for the redirection, because this word must be present. What is your opinion? Very often I pass along the mass graves of it, and I know that a massacre is something caotic, but in Odessa it was not like this, it was a very well organized process of extermination. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Until the dissolution of the [[Warsaw Pact]] in [[1990]], Turkish Army under LANDSOUTHEAST was responsible for a static defense against Soviet and Warsaw Pact forces in the Caucasus and any possible attack on Thrace.

::: Let's continue the discussion here. I am copying the above from our talk pages over here and requesting more opinions from [[Talk:The Holocaust]]''. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Between [[1993]] and [[3 March]] [[1995]], Turkish Army was a part of [[Operation United Shield]] responding to famine conditions in [[Somalia]].

On [[1 September]] [[1999]] [[Joint Headquarters Soultheast]] (JHS) replaced [[Allied Land Forces Southeastern Europe|LANDSOUTHEAST]] due to restructuring in NATO command is the assumption of a joint capability in the southern region, and major changes in the international staffs. The [[Joint Headquarters Soultheast]] (JHS) now also includes personnel from [[Greece]], [[Hungary]], [[Netherlands]] and [[Spain]].

==Structure==

Turkish Army is organized into following commands:

*Land Forces Command (Turkisk:''Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı (KKK)'')

**[[Turkish First Army|1st Army]] Command

**[[Turkish Second Army|2nd Army]] Command

**[[Turkish Third Army|3rd Army]] Command

**[[Aegean Army]] Command

**[[Cyprus Turkish Peace Forces]] Command

**Training and Doctrine Command

**Logistics Command

**Airborne Command

These commands consists of following structure:

*4 Field armies,

*10 Army corps,

*2 Mechanized infantery divisions,

*2 Mechanized infantery division headquarters (tactical),

*1 Infantery division and 1 training division,

*14 Mechanized infantery brigades,

*14 Armored brigades,

*12 Infantery/regional security brigades,

*5 Commando brigades,

*5 Training brigades.

==Insignia==

{| style="border:1px solid #8888aa; background-color:#f7f8ff; padding:5px; font-size:95%; margin: 0px 12px 12px 0px;"

{{Ranks and Insignia of NATO Armies/OF/Blank}}

{{Ranks and Insignia of NATO Armies/OF/Turkey}}

|-

|colspan=5|

* ¹ Honorary/War time rank.

|}

{| style="border:1px solid #8888aa; background-color:#f7f8ff; padding:5px; font-size:95%; margin: 0px 12px 12px 0px;"

{{Ranks and Insignia of NATO Armies/OR/Blank}}

{{Ranks and Insignia of NATO Armies/OR/Turkey}}

|}

==Main equipment==

{|border=1 width=550 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0

|colspan=2 align=center bgcolor=green|'''Turkish Army'''

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|''' [[Main battle tank]]s '''

|-

|88||[[Leopard MBT|Leopard 1A3T1/TU120]]

|-

|175||[[Leopard MBT|Leopard 1A3T1]]

|-

|180||[[Leopard MBT|Leopard 1A1A1]]

|-

|720||M 60A3

|-

|289||M 60A1 RISE/Passive (170 will undergo a comprehensive Sabra Mk.3 upgrade)

|-

|798||[[Patton tank|M 48A5T2]] (Upgraded to M 60A3 Standard)

|-

|1789||[[Patton tank|M 48A5T1]] (Upgraded to M 60A1 Standard)

|-

|287||[[Patton tank|M 48T5]] (Upgraded to M 60A1 Standard)

|-

|658||[[Patton tank|M 48A3]] (Reserve and obsolete. Used for spare parts)

|-

|575||[[Patton tank|M 48A2C]] (Reserve and obsolete. Used for spare parts)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|''' [[Armored personnel carrier]]s '''

|-

|650||FNSS Armored infantry fighting vehicle (AIFV)

|-

|1381||FNSS Advanced armored personnel carrier (AAPC)

|-

|170||FNSS Armored mortar vehicle (AMV) (self propelled 81 mm mortar)

|-

|48||FNSS Armored TOW vehicle (ATV)

|-

|3162||M 113A/A1/A2/T2/T3

|-

|179||[[M30 Mortar|M 106A1]] (Self propelled M-30 107mm mortar)

|-

|10+||[[M29 Mortar|M 125A1]] (Self propelled M-29 81mm mortar)

|-

|156||M 113 TOW

|-

|180||[[BTR-80]]

|-

|5||RN 94 (6X6)

|-

|5||Otokar Cobra (4X4)

|-

|n/a||Otokar Akrep

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|'''Rocket launchers'''

|-

|30||WS1A (4X320mm) (6 batteries each with 5 launchers).

|-

|12||[[M270 MLRS]] (12X227mm)

|-

|72||MGM 140 [[Army Tactical Missile System|ATACMS]] Block I

|-

|48||TR 107 (12X107mm)

|-

|24||RA 7040 (40X70mm)

|-

|52+||T 122 CNRA (40X122mm, 40km)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|'''Towed artillery'''

|-

|140||M 155 (203mm)

|-

|538||[[M114 howitzer|M 114A1/A2]] (155mm)

|-

|152||M 59 (155mm)

|-

|72||Skoda (150mm)

|-

|830||[[M101 howitzer|M 101A1]] (105mm)

|-

|12||M 38 Skoda (105mm) (Used in training)

|-

|11||105R Metalgun (105mm) (Used in training)

|-

|180||M 116 (75mm)

|-

|18||T 155 Panter 155/52 FT-2000 (155mm)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|''' [[Self-propelled artillery]] '''

|-

|295||[[M110 howitzer|M110A2]] (203mm)

|-

|9||M 55 (203mm)

|-

|36||M 107 (175mm)

|-

|164||M 44T (155mm) (Upgraded)

|-

|360||M 52T (155mm) (Upgraded)

|-

|26||M 108T (155mm) (Possible upgrade)

|-

|24||T 155 Firtina (K9T) 155/52 SP-2000 (155mm)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|''' [[Unmanned aerial vehicle]]s (UAVs)-propelled artillery'''

|-

|108||[[IAI Harpy|Harpy]] Attack UAV (500 km)

|-

|48||Cutlass/Harop (1000 km)

|-

|1||[[GNAT-750|I-GNAT]] Surveillance UAV (500 km)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Anti-aircraft missile]]s '''

|-

|6||Atilgan KMS (1X8 FIM-92B/C Stinger)

|-

|4||Zipkin KMS (1X4 FIM-92 Stinger)

|-

|800+||[[FIM-92 Stinger|FIM 92B/C Stinger Post]]/RPM (4882 missiles)

|-

|1089||[[FIM-43 Redeye|FIM-43A Redeye]]

|-

|42||[[Igla|9M39 Igla]] (SA-18 Grouse)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Attack aircraft|Attack helicopters]] '''

|-

|9||[[AH-1 Cobra|Bell AH1W Super Cobra]]

|-

|27||[[AH-1 Cobra|Bell AH1P Cobra]]

|-

|6||[[AH-1 Cobra|Bell TAH1P Cobra]]

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Air-to-ground missile]]s '''

|-

|216||[[AGM-114 Hellfire|Hellfire II K2]] (Used in the AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters)

|-

|n/a||[[TOW|TOW II]] (Used in the AH-1S/P Cobra helicopters)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| '''Other helicopters'''

|-

|28||[[Eurocopter Cougar|Eurocopter AS-532UL Cougar Mk1]] (4 SAR, 4 ambulance, 4 VIP, 16 utility)

|-

|21||[[UH-60 Black Hawk|Sikorsky S-70A28 Blackhawk]] (13 will undergo ASELSAN avionics upgrade, 8 SOF)

|-

|52||[[UH-60 Black Hawk|Sikorsky S-70D28 Blackhawk]] (5 SAR, 4 ambulance, 41 utility, 2 SOF CSAR)

|-

|52||Bell UH-1H/2020-ASAM

|-

|42||[[UH-1 Huey|Bell UH-1H Iroquois]] (24 training)

|-

|20||Bell UH-1D

|-

|23||[[UH-1 Huey|Augusta Bell AB205AT/2020]]

|-

|27||[[UH-1 Huey|Augusta Bell AB205A1]]

|-

|28||[[Bell JetRanger|Bell AB206B3 JetRanger]]

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Anti-tank missile]]s '''

|-

|365||[[TOW|TOW I/II]]

|-

|392+||[[MILAN]] With MIRA thermal sights

|-

|550||ERYX (1200 missiles)

|-

|72||9M113M Konkurs (AT5 Spandrel) (420 missiles)

|-

|186||Cobra (Used for training purposes only)

|-

|5000+||[[RPG-7]] (40mm)

|-

|40.000+||[[M72 LAW|M72 A2 LAW]] (66mm)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center|'''Artillery guns without recoil '''

|-

|2137||[[M40A1 Recoilless rifle|M 40A1]] (106mm)

|-

|1000||M 20(75mm) (in storage)

|-

|871||M 18(57mm) (in storage. Small number in use at Marines)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Anti-aircraft gun]]s '''

|-

|110||M 42 (2X40mm)

|-

|312||[[Bofors 40 mm gun|L/70 & L/70T Bofors]] (40mm) (52 with Officine Galileo P56 optical sight)

|-

|600+||[[Bofors 40mm gun|L/60 & M1A1]] (40mm)

|-

|120||[[Oerlikon GDF-003]] (2X35mm)

|-

|100+||[[Oerlikon GDF-001]] (2X35mm)

|-

|440||[[Oerlikon GAI-D01]] (2X20mm)

|-

|300+||Mk 20 Rh202 (2X20mm)

|-

|900||M55 (4X12.7mm)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Mortar (artillery)|Mortars]] '''

|-

|578||HY-12Di (120mm)

|-

|1265||M-30 (107mm)

|-

|n/a||UT1 (81mm)

|-

|3175||M1/M29 (81mm)

|-

|n/a||M 19 (60mm)

|-

|colspan=2 align=center| ''' [[Grenade launcher|Automatic grenade launchers]] '''

|-

|1500+||(40x53mm) (Mk19 copy from Roketsan)

|-

|n/a||[[Mk 19 grenade launcher|Mk19 Mod3]]

|}

==Source==

*[http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/tu-army.htm www.globalsecurity.org - Turkish Land Forces - Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı]

*[http://www.afsouth.nato.int/factsheets/JCSE.htm AFSOUTH Fact sheet - Turkey]

*[http://warriorsoul.4t.com/army.html warriorsoul.4t.com/army.html]

*[http://www.politikforen.de/showthread.php?t=7558 www.politikforen.de]

==External links==

*{{CIA_WFB_2004}}

*[http://www.osmanlimedeniyeti.com http://www.osmanlimedeniyeti.com] Many articles about the history of Ottoman Turkish Army

*[http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/index.htm Turkish Armed Forces Website]

*[http://www.kkk.tsk.mil.tr/ Turkish Army Website in Turkish]

*[http://warriorsoul.4t.com/ Unofficial Turkish Armed Forces Website in English]

{{Turkish Millitary}}

{{NATO}}

[[Category:Military of Turkey]]