Chris Carter (New Zealand politician) and Talk:1941 Odessa massacre: Difference between pages

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{{WikiProject Russian History}}

'''Chris Carter''' is a [[New Zealand]] politician and a member of [[New Zealand Cabinet | Cabinet]]. He currently serves as Minister of Conservation, Minister of Local Government, and Minister of Ethnic Affairs. He is the member of parliament for the [[Te Atatu]] electorate.

==message==

To the original author of this article: It is a sad fact that Wikipedia articles don't quote their sources, especially when they deal with controversial political events. It goes without saying that the Romanians who will read this article will be skeptical about it and will doubt of its truth. (Many people in Romania consider Antonescu as a national hero and are reluctant to admit any Romanian responsibility for the Holocaust). I am ready to admit that they are not guilty for this, they just lack knowledge.

This article says "General Ion Antonescu ordered from Bucharest that for every killed Romanian and German officer, 200 Jews and Communists were to be killed, and for every soldier, 100 were to be executed. All the Communists were to be imprisoned and one person was to be taken hostage from every Jewish family".

He was notable in for being the first openly [[homosexuality|gay man]] ever appointed as a New Zealand cabinet minister. He has been a strong advocate of gay rights for some time, and has continued this role since entering parliament. Before entering politics, Carter had served as a teacher and as a poultry farmer.

My question is: if this is a historically undisputable fact, why is not the order issued by Antonescu scanned and put on the internet, so that no one should doubt about the atrocities ordered by Antonescu? I think that there is such an order, written on a piece of paper which was preserved after the fall of Antonescu regime and was probably used at his trial against him. If it could be made available to any person interested, then it would be impossible for any person with a minimal moral conscience to consider Antonescu as a positive hero.

[[Category:New Zealand politicians|Carter, Chris]]

So:

(1) is there such a document written/signed by Antonescu?

(2) can it be scanned and made available online?

And - obviously - if there is not such a document, what is the evidence for the claim made in the Wikipedia article? laurian {{unsigned|84.109.154.227}}

== restoring traditional title ==

Please do not move articles to controversial names without consensus. I did not see a discussion regarding the move to [[Odessa Holocaust]], therefore I am restoring the long-standing name. If there are going to be other articles named [[Odessa massacre]], then we could discuss [[WP:DISAMBIG]]. Perhaps [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or some such would be appropriate, but I dislike parentheses in titles. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 03:27, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

==Odessa Holocaust==

Hi! There is nothing too wrong in titling [[Odessa massacre]], but the very name of event historically is reffered to the masssacre that occured in [[Odessa]] in 1905 [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_battleship_Potemkin#Arrival_in_Odessa]. So, it could be more correct to call the extermination of Jews traditionaly a Holocaust to avoid any misunderstanding of the title. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 18:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

: As in other similar cases in WP, I think it would be proper to reserve the title [[Odessa massacre]] for the most famous/infamous one and have [[WP:REDIRECT]]s and [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]]s for other tragedies that scholarly sources may refer to as "Odessa massacre". Perhaps the best name for this one would be [[Odessa massacre (Holocaust)]] or [[Odessa massacre (1941)]]. In general, [[The Holocaust]] (Ha-Shoah) is a common name for the [[genocide]] of European Jews, therefore I don't think [[Odessa Holocaust]] is an encyclopedic title. Right now it is a redirect to [[Odessa massacre]]. Thanks. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 20:53, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

:: Right You are. But it can be called Holocaust in Odessa, like [[Holocaust in Poland]], [[Holocaust in Romania]], [[Holocaust in Estonia]]. But the word Holocaust must be present, firstly, to avoid double meaning (The Odessa Massacre of 1905). And it really was a Holocaust and not an abstract massacre! So, the "Odessa massacre (Holocaust)", proposed by You, or "Odessa Holocaust Massacre" or, as it was, "Odessa Holocaust" or "Holocaust in Odessa" would be a nice title for the redirection, because this word must be present. What is your opinion? Very often I pass along the mass graves of it, and I know that a massacre is something caotic, but in Odessa it was not like this, it was a very well organized process of extermination. Truly, [[User:Paganel|Paganel]] 22:14, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

::: Let's continue the discussion here. I am copying the above from our talk pages over here and requesting more opinions from [[Talk:The Holocaust]]''. ←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]] ^{[[User talk:Humus sapiens|ну]][[Special:Contributions/Humus_sapiens|?]]} 22:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)