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Article forked from [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] due to length of that article, but since the split, this article has become a hopeless quagmire of conspiracy theory nonsense, and even simple demands that the article try to meet NPOV have been met with further POV pushing. This is simply not what wiipedia is about...[[WP:NOT|wikipedia is not]] for soapboxing, and is not an indiscriminate collection of misinformation. Delete.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 04:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::'''Note to closing admin'''...the previous discussion has nothing to do with the current one.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 14:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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::::'''Clarification'''. The previous discussion can be read here:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29].--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 07:12, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
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:'''Comment''' - since the split article has only become more NPOV, and better sourced (it almost hasn't grown in size and putting it back is out of the question). Simple demands you mention: well everyone can check on the talk page that your demands were very simple (''Fix the problems that are in this article or it will be removed as an egregious violation of WP:NOT'') and quite short and not explained and you made them yesterday. This is not what wikipedia is about... Check below for other arguments.[[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 11:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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::Wrong...the article is huge compared to when it was on the 9/11 CT article...when it was there, the complaints were that adding more nonsense then would make that article too big. After forking, conspiracy theory folks have made this a repository of junk science. I asked to get the known facts about Steven E. Jones put in the article and was essentially laughed off. Misuse of Wikipedia to push conspiracy theory propaganda such as this makes folks like yourself nothing but problem editors. I mean look at the singular focus you and the rest of the cruftists have...a blind man could see that your agenda is to POV push conspiracy theory nonsense...you hardly edit anything else. You're not fooling anyone.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 12:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::Wrong: MONGO laughed off?? - the facts about Jones you asked for are already in the article since yesterday (were added witihn hours you asked)... maybe you should concentrate on its content not your personal POV on this matter? What I edit is my personal thing - is it ad hominem argument you just brought on? To make this even I'll say that you make yourself look like a problem admin. No offence. [[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 13:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Edit histories are transparent...yours are solely agenda driven.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 13:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::<s>Why do you accuse me of lying?</s> Mine histories are '''true and real''': [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77251723 Revision as of 23:58, 22 September 2006; Thomas Basboll] - at the end of ''The hypothesis'' (since then has been moved to ''Conflicts with official explanation'') there are sentences about Jones paid leave. You asked for it on the talk page at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AControlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=77247372&oldid=77246501 21:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)]. 2.5 hours - I feel offended by your groundless accusation. [[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 14:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::I never said you were lying, so don't put words in my mouth. I stated, and looking at your entire editing history this is obvious, that you are here solely to advance conspiracy theories. So far, you have not demonstrated that your purpose on Wikipedia is geared in any other direction. Those links do not demonstrate that Alex Jones has been adequately debunked as would be completely mandatory for this article to ever be NPOV.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 14:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Our job is not to debunk anything. Our job is to make articles on any and all notable things reported by secondary sources for a free encyclopedia. Those here for anything else need to leave. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 14:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No, MONGO, no - stop putting your words into my head. I am here to learn how to edit Wikipedia and gain knwoledge about 9/11. I won't discuss anymore with you, because it's got ad hominem and has nothing to do with the case. I can't find any source that would show that <u>Steven</u> Jones has been debunked (he was dismissed-its a big difference in science).[[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 14:43, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Delete''' unencyclopedic. Per nom. Vote Early, etc, etc. --[[User:Tbeatty|Tbeatty]] 04:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*[[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
* '''Delete''' as unencyclopedic and severely undue weight to a minority viewpoint as well as synthesis of facts in order to support a hypothesis in violation of [[WP:OR]]. A minority viewpoint("hypothesis") does not require a full article explanation and this current treatment goes way afield of [[WP:NPOV]]'s dictum on undue weight and POV fork. The prime contributor to his article has admitted it is a vehicle for presenting his POV[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=77564182&oldid=77544991]., in gross violation of [[WP:NOT]], [[WP:NPOV]], and [[WP:OR]]. Delete with prejudice. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 05:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Danny Lilithborne|Danny Lilithborne]] 05:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''. The article violates no wikipedia policy and is a legit, well written, and sourced article about a extensivley argued theory. If there is an issue with specific content then address the specific content, don't AfD the entire article. [[User:NeoFreak|NeoFreak]] 05:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:It's hopeless. efforts to get a NPOV in this article will be impossible.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*::Why are you, as an experienced wikipedian, totally giving up on an article both now and in the future? [[User:Ansell/Esperanza|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Ans<span style="color:#009000;">e</span>ll</span>]] 01:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:It's "extensively argued" if at all, on the internet. If that were a criteria for inclusion, we would have an article on every crackpot physics "hypothesis" posted on usenet, and articles on which of the Manning brothers is a better quarterback. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 05:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::Read the article, it makes a strong case and it cites alot of academic and scietific sources to back the hypothesis. Do I believe it? No. That doesn't mean it is not encyclopedic. Because it is a touchy subject and is prone to POV doess't qualify the article for deletion. This article needs work, not a all out deletion. [[User:NeoFreak|NeoFreak]] 05:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::'''"it makes a strong case and it cites alot of academic and scietific sources to back the hypothesis"''' I see; it's an essay? --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 05:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::The main reason the article exists is because folks were unable to get this nonsense in the [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] article...it is a definite POV fork therefore.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Not just making a case in the sense of debate but its continued existence on wikipedia which is really what I meant. An article talking ''about'' a POV or a established hypothetical concept has to do that. Which I think it does. I'd hate to see a article get deleted because the POV is covers is unpopular. [[User:NeoFreak|NeoFreak]] 05:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Oh, on the contrary...I believe the POV it covers is popular...the problem is the ability of this article to be neutral, which I see no prospectus for.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::If that's the case it only helps the case for keeping it in an encyclopedia. Besides NPOV issues is not and never has been grounds for deletion. [[User:NeoFreak|NeoFreak]] 05:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::Nah, not if it is a gross violation of [[WP:NOT]], which it is.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::The notion of an independent page for a minority POV is the definition of POV fork. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 19:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong delete'''. This article is a black hole of POV forkery, and roughly half its references are blatant violations of [[WP:RS]]. --[[User:Aaron|Aaron]] 05:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Strong Keep <s>Keep</s>''' Not sure what the other people are even reading unless they have a personal bias stake in this. WP:POINT afd nomination that appears <s>trolling</s> or disruption attempt? This is a fork that includes 95 sources, from nytimes.com to house.gov to all sorts of international coverage. The theory as a theory is notable, and 40% of Americans polled per CNN believe in theories. There is a criticism section and volumous sourced data. Why is this even nominated? Close afd as farcical--why is this even open...?
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* [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77347107 This version] of the article has [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&oldid=77347107#References 108 references]. Of them, just at a ''glance'', I count at least 70+ that meet all Policy requirements for RV and V. They range from a ''variety'' of US government documents that touch on the theory, to news sources ranging from live reports by Dan Rather to the NY Times to the BBC. Seems notable enough to be an automatic keep, and rereading AfD policies we do not delete for POV reasons, nor neutrality reasons. We rewrite the article together, which is the only reason, and the only reason we're here: write free encyclopedia about notable things that are reported on by secondary sources. Closing admin: this article therefore per RS meets all qualifications that I can see. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · <s>05:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)</s> · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 13:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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:Trust me that I am not a troll, so I'll assume your commentary must be. The farce is when people misuse Wikipedia to POV push nonsense
*[[Wikipedia:Image use policy]]
such as this.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:42, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*[[Wikipedia:Image copyright tags]]
::Are you saying the theory isn't notable based on the mountains of media coverage? Or that it's too big for the parent page, and per policy shouldn't be forked off? Those two policies say that this article has legs and stays. Policy is on it's side, at this time, from what I've read. If you can cite in policy with examples why it shouldn't be, I will reconsider my opinion. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 05:44, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Efforts to have much of this information in the Collapse of the World Trade Center article failed, so it was then built up on the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] article. This was split, and retitled and technically survived a different Afd, but this article has now developed into a repository of misinformation deliberately designed to give credence to something that has no basis in fact...it is an article that will perpetually masquerade as a scientific treatise. [[WP:NOT]] clearly states that wikipedia is not a soapbox, which this article is...a soapbox to promote conspiracy theory nonsense. Furthermore, I see no chance the article can be a neutral one and will ultimately be a battleground, further violation of policy. I rarely nominate articles for deletion, so when I do, I am most serious about my reasoning.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 05:55, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::I guess it will be the community that decides if it stays or goes 5 days from now, with no one getting their points attacked I should hope. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 06:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Then best you don't refer to my nom as trolling?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::True, fair point and struck. However, please justify and explain the comment you added then [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=prev&oldid=77314820 removed] however of:
::::::::::''"The article will be deleted...I just thought I would bring it here for discussion...it's your job to convince me to not delete it. Since the article is a soapbox platform, that is a clear violation of [[WP:NOT]]."''
::::::Also per policy do not refactor others' additions to AfD or (I see your an admin now) be the one to close this--so, regretfully, it's not "your" decision for anything directly. Thanks! · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 13:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Keep the first paragraph, demolish the rest''' - That's all that's needed. Of course, the conspiracy theorists would never allow such an edit to stand. Sigh. - [[User:Richfife|Richfife]] 06:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:*Such a summary already exists in the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] article. The question is exactly whether or not the rest of the article should exist. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 06:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' as unencyclopedic per nom. Pull it. [[User:Dual Freq|Dual Freq]] 06:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Strong Keep''' This article passed an AfD at 09: 42 on 22 on September.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29] This nomination for deletion appears to have been made under 24 hours later. The phrase "since the split" should be read with that in mind. The requests to establish an NPOV and an encyclopedic approach have been met with friendly assurances that "we're working on it". The problems with this article had, as the nomitation notes, previously been problems with the 9/11 conspiracy theory article (which is coming around nicely) and (though this is before my time) the article on the collapse of the WTC (which is in great shape now - in part due to the efforts of editors who are working on this article). At this stage it is clear that the sections need to be trimmed in its "collection of information". As the closing admin on the recent AfD said, "it is clear that [Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center] needs to be made more neutral etc, but '''this is going way outside the area of AFD'''.".[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29] I agree with that judgment, and it is too soon to say that the challenges have not been met. Anyone who reads the articles last few days of history will see it is going in the right direction. Anyone who reads its talk pages will be able to see the spirit in which the changes are being made.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 07:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:This is a seperate issue, so no it's not too early. Now we can directly discuss the reason why we should allow articles like this to be on wikipedia...since the focus is now and always will be an advocacy platform and a gross violation of [[WP:OR|original research]] in that you have a "hypothesis" and then deliberately seak out sources to support that hypothesis. Sorry, but misuse of Wikipedia for this purpose is not to be condoned.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::While Mongo's reasons to nominate may technically differ from the original AfD (though it is unclear to me exactly how), it is clear that the editors who are voting here have interpreted the issue in similar terms. Again we talking about "POV pushing" on the one side and "a notable theory" on the other. Importantly, the basic justification for this article is that merging it back into [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] would undo some substantial recent improvements to it. Splitting it has offered a way to make progress on the presentation of both 9/11 conspiracy theories in general and the controlled demolition hypothesis specfically.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 07:10, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Was this article up for AfD? This seems like a separate POV fork from the one that was deleted although it contains the same information. [[User:Tbeatty|Tbeatty]] 07:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Yes, and the result was to keep it.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Controlled-Demolition_Theory_%289/11_Conspiracy_Theory%29]--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 08:53, 23 September 2006 (UTC)ø
*'''Keep''' - Notable theory on a notable event. Sources are clear that this theory is asserted by a number of people. Cleanup concerns should not be dealt with through an AfD. [[User:JASpencer|JASpencer]] 07:23, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - Seems like its the same old group of people who are proposing deletion of anything that doesn’t fit the 9/11 official story and the same people are against it. Gee, I wonder if that’s a coincidence. I'd bet not. [[User:Shortfuse|Shortfuse]] 07:54, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:Gee, it seems like the usual POV pushers of nonsense are all lining up to vote keep...I wonder if that is a coincidence? I'd bet not.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', this hypothesis exists and has been widely publicized. Article is no less encyclopedic than [[Nazi UFOs]]. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 08:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:*That article does not advance a position; it in fact makes it clear that it is a fictional theme. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 14:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Exactly, and fictional or a dumb CT, it's still notable however, and thus an automatic AfD pass. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 14:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Mmx, I don't think you read very far into the article. [[User:Gazpacho|Gazpacho]] 19:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
==Final Fantasy VI sources==
====Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all (1)====
*'''Keep''It's thecool. hypothesisIf isthis nonsense;information however,really itdid isappear notable.in just one of those Japanese magazines, the articlenews iswill aspread goodquickly placeand toit documentwill thebe nonsense.easy ifto thesource articleit isthrough poora now,website. I'll leave the solutiontags isup tountil fixthen. it.Sorry if thatI issounded tooharsh difficult,in npovmy tagedit itsummary. ~ [[User_talkUser:DerexHibana|DerexHibana]] 09:3127, 2325 September 2006 (UTC)
*:I'm really troubled by the idea of "documenting the nonsense". If the article is nonsense, as you suggest, wouldn't it be appropriate to just [[WP:CSD]]:G1 it and move on? [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 09:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' we want to honestly present in this article the status of knowledge about the hypothesis, which already caused quite a mess in the world. It's very notable among Internet users, it's made its way to the media, it's been considered among engineers (NIST, Bazhant - then dismissed) and there are academic papers promoting it (Jones,Cherpanov, Greening, who considers thermite reactions). There are voices form experts abroad (Swiss professor of structural engineering; Dutch, Danish demolition experts) agreeing with it. We want to present most notable points of this hypothesis (and there is a lot of them, they are mentioned in academic papers, summaries of researches, on thousands of blogs), present a critique of them (it's already done in many cases). There are secondary sources presenting this hypothesis, there is a critique of it, so the article can be very encyclopedic.
:Proponents of deletion bring following issues on: WP:NOT a soapbox, WP:OR. My opinion:
:*Propaganda,self-promotion, advertising, or advocacy - it's not propaganda cause the hypothesis lives its own life and this article only presents it. It's not advocacy because article is written in NPOV language and criticism is already there and more is very welcomed.
:*publisher of orginal thought: the article presents thoughts which are on minds of millions of people(many scientists) - such thoughts deserve to be described and discussed, criticised.
:*WP:OR:the hypothesis has been published, has been engaged with (NIST discussed it,FAQ). There is no drawing conclusions in the article, no orginal thought (please work on that more if you wish).
:Proponents of deletion, instead of working on the article to make it better, would prefer to delete it. They're using this tactics very often with regard to 9/11 articles - I agree that in some cases they're correct - not in this one, and recent AfD voting has shown that, too. Again - strong keep per above, per Thomas Basboll, per XP about quality of sources. --[[User:SalvNaut|SalvNaut]] 11:00, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Derex. People (including some Americans) seriously believe it, made a DVD out of it, etc. --[[User:Storkk|Storkk]] 11:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete'''</s> '''Strong delete''' - This was split from the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]]. I think this material needs to be put back in the main 9/11 conspiracy theories article. It can be shortened by cutting OR, unreliable or non-sourced material, etc. --[[User:AudeVivere|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:AudeVivere|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/AudeVivere|contribs]] [[User:AudeVivere/Contributions|as tagcloud]])</small> 11:51, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep'''. I think the name of the article is really insane (jeeze), but given the enormous list of references it certainly appears to be notable and not original research or indiscriminate information. If there are POV issues, those can probably be dealt with independently. Might need to be shortened a bit as well. ~ [[User:Lav-chan|lav-chan]] @ 11:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Wikipedia is not a soapbox, not a publisher of original thought, and not a free web space provider for conspiracy theorists. The sources the article has are mostly self-published conspiracy sites — unreliable, systematically and purposefully unbalanced sources. The phenomenon of conspiracy theories can be covered in [[9/11 conspiracy theories]], but the point-counterpoint argumentation (the bulk of this article) is utterly unencyclopedic original research soapboxing. To improve the article: cut down the soapbox part (vast majority of it) and roll it back to [[9/11 conspiracy theories]]. [[User:Weregerbil|Weregerbil]] 12:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' per nomination. [[User:Crockspot|Crockspot]] 13:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per Weregerbil above. [[User:Tom harrison|Tom Harrison]] <sup>[[User talk:Tom harrison|Talk]]</sup> 13:36, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per [[User:NeoFreak|NeoFreak]]. // [[User:Duccio|Duccio]] ([[Special:Emailuser/Duccio|write me]]) 13:38, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per [[User:Mmx1]] --[[User:Rogerd|rogerd]] 15:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Blatant soapboxing, and as such unlikely to ever meet [[WP:NPOV]]. Many of these "secondary sources" aren't exactly reliable ones, either. | [[User:MrDarcy|Mr. Darcy]] <small>[[User talk:MrDarcy|talk]]</small> 15:58, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. While clean up is certainly merited (a number of the sources I've managed to go through so far are, at the very best, barely capable of satisfying [[WP:RS]]), no one is arguing that this theory's existence is unverifiable, and it's certainly notable. I assume that the majority of those who have responded here have heard about the theory at some point. In my eyes, if the theory has gained enough credence that even my own government is taking the time to [http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=pubs-english&y=2006&m=August&x=20060828133846esnamfuaK0.2676355 respond to it], it's also got enough to warrant a WP article. The article itself is not inherently POV, and the "blatant soapboxing" everyone is referring to can be cleaned up by clearing the worst cruft and citing the rebuttals where possible. POV is always going to be an issue with articles on controversial topics, but AfD isn't the place to resolve it. [[User:Philodespotos|Philodespotos]] 16:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete'''. This collection of minority viewpoints will never achieve a [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]], will never have [[WP:RS|reliable sources]], and will never stop being a soapbox (which [[WP:NOT|Wikipedia is Not]]). It's also entirely unencyclopedic. Delete it now. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 17:03, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep''' perhaps speedily as a repeat AfD so close to the previous one. Like it or not, this is a noted crank theory. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 17:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete''' per Alphachimp. -- [[User talk:I@n|I@n]] 18:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep'''. I am trying very hard to [[WP:AGF|assume good faith]], and am not really succeeding. [[WP:NOT]] a soapbox, and these continual AfD nominations appear to be part of a soapbox. The article passes all the critera for inclusion. We should not care that the conspiracy theories are good theories or bad theories. We should simply document them as being a phenomenon that we record in an encyclopaedic manner. Our role is not to judge the theories in any way <u>except</u> to document that which is <u>notable</u>. The theories are patently notable. If the article requires editing that is a different matter from nominating it for deletion. Time to get back on message, guys. It's an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper. 18:30, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:'''Comment'''. The theory is complete BS, but that's not the point. The point is that this article will never achieve a Neutral Point of View, has no reliable sources, and serves as a soapbox. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 18:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*::No. that is not the point. Diligent editing can remove non neutral point of view items. We are not here to look into a crystalk ball, we are here to edit. We can flag disputed articles to suggest that they may not be neutral, we can do a great deal. The sources that are quoted to illustrate the theories are, usually, acceptable sources in that they pass the relevant tests. [[User:Timtrent|Fiddle Faddle]] 18:39, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*:::I'm a bit perplexed about how this article can ever be made [[WP:NPOV|NPOV]]. As for the sources listed, the only reasonably reliable one I recall is Popular Mechanics (correct me if I'm wrong). The majority are conspiracy sites. I suspect their content is just as POV as this article. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 08:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*:: Per AfD policy none of your cited reasons are valid Deletion reasons. Why would this article because of subject matter some disagree with be exempt from established policy? · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 18:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*::: It's not quite so much disagreement as it is the absolute inability for this article ever to become anything beyond POV and [[WP:HOAX|hoaxcruft]]. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 08:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*::::Unfortunately, I count 60+ unrefutably reliable sources that no one can contest. The theory exists. It is reported on. It is notable. It is not a hoax that it exists, and either way none of this is a valid reason per AfD policy/procedure to delete. I think it's bullshit, but my view does not matter. Popular will cannot trump policy for what is meritous, and 60+ RS is certainly meritous. I want to AGF but the fact that this was nominated 24 hours after the last AfD on the same content is just the height of hubris, and as Jeff mentioned should be tossed on procedural grounds. This is already clearly going to be a no concensus or keep--this needs cleanup, and does not qualify for deletion, as AfD is not a vote (thankfully). Anyway, the sudden and premature AfD will at least insulate this from future premature AfDs as any new early ones will be certainly considered a disruptive WP:POINT vio of some sort. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 08:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*:::::I really think that it's in poor form to come out with allegations of bad faith and [[WP:POINT]] here. Let's stick to the topic at hand and save the ad hominem comments for other venues. As to your sources: of course, there is some wheat amongst the chaff. Yet those few good links only reference the unreliable hoaxcruft put forth by crackpot authors, personal websites, and other unacceptable sources. In essence: pull the unreliable sources and you get one POV--leave them in and you get another. Either way, it'll never be NPOV. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 08:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*::::::Wait, wait--so for some reason, because some of us consider it a dumb theory or disagree with it, valid RS reporting about the existance of a thing being espoused by possibly unreliable people means that we shouldn't have an article on it? That makes absolutely zero sense and I'd like for you to demonstrate where/how in policy such a thing is justifiable. Unless I'm misreading what you just wrote, your saying that is 1. I announce I am heriditary Emperor of the United States; 2. I post it all over the Internets, all over print media, and buy a TV spot Ross Perot style to espouse this; 3. I am a certifiable crackpot. 4. The NY Times and other international and domestic media cover my nonsense reliably; 5. I shouldn't have a wikipedia article because it's not provable that my statements may or may not be false? That makse zero sense and following that logic I can apply it to virtually any article on any fringe subject matter that I disagree with to get it removed from Wikipedia. That is wrong and not how the system works. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 08:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*:::::::Ironically, the same people whom this article cites as reliable sources would probably buy into your announcement. Fortunately, there are precious few. This isn't a matter of sanitizing the site for "my opinion" or "MONGO's opinion". It's a matter of removing an article that will always be a cruftish soapbox for an extreme minority of people. It's not our place to advertise theories and breed disdain for the US government, we're here to present the facts in the most neutral unbiased way possible. I do not ever see that happening with this article. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 09:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*::::::::Ironically, I think my point was missed. It's not our place to decide if something is meritous based on it's virtue, and it's neither our place to breed disdain for the US government nor is it our job to prevent it. This is not the American Wikipedia, it's the English Wikipedia. American POV, pro or con, has no more relevance than English, Scottish, Canadian, Jamaican, Austrailian, South African, or New Zealand POV. Neither has any more intrinsic value than any other. If something is offensive to some Americans, that's of no relevance, and if the subject matter leads to people clucking their tongues at the US government... well, that's not our concern. Also, have you not noticed the constant surveys that says 1/4 to 1/3 of all people believe in 9/11 related Conspiracy Theories? Hardly an extreme minority, there are scores of such reports all over. [http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,20385039-910,00.html From a major Aussie news source.]. Basically, what I'm saying is that whether or not it's appealing or insulting to some Americans--which seems to be the implication for many of these delete votes--that's their issue, not Wikipedia's. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 09:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
== Image:Pokeds2.jpg ==
*:Actually, there are plenty of reliable sources that report on the theory, and also thoroughly debunk it, covering both sides of the coin. [http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5 Here's one]. --[[User:Badlydrawnjeff|badlydrawnjeff]] <small>[[User_talk:Badlydrawnjeff|talk]]</small> 18:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Pokeds2.jpg]]'''. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]], but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our [[Wikipedia:Fair use criteria|first fair use criterion]] in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:
*::The Popular Mechanics article is one of the few somewhat decent, reliable sources that I've found in the entire reference list. The majority are conspiracy theory sites. [[User:Alphachimp|<font color="OrangeRed">alpha</font><font color="black">'''Chimp'''</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Alphachimp|(talk)]]</sup> 08:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as a unencyclopedic POV fork. Since the forking the article has grown into a massive OR synthesis. The small amount of usable content should be remerged into the original article. --[[User:Wildnox|Wildnox]] 19:25, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Weregerbil. [[User:Morton devonshire|Morton devonshire]] 19:37, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' POV fork. This absurd and fantastical hypothesis is more than adequately covered elsewhere. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> 21:48, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Legitimate conspiracy theory. As always, such an article needs to be monitored constantly for POV and OR, but that can be said of just about any article on a controversial subject. I've seen TV documentaries on this topic, so it's notable enough to warrant a separate article. [[User:23skidoo|23skidoo]] 22:46, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
# Go to [[:Image:Pokeds2.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to add <code><nowiki>{{Replaceable fair use disputed}}</nowiki></code>, '''without deleting the original Replaceable fair use template'''.
*'''Strong Keep''' per [[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]], who has done an amazing job with organizing and condensing the significant amount of existing information and continues to keep it relatively NPOV, allowing the information to be seen, and not packed in on all sides with POV labels and opinions from the other side at every turn. [[User:Bov|bov]] 04:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
# On [[Image talk:Pokeds2.jpg|the image discussion page]], write the reason why this image is not replaceable at all.
:*NPOV? How is it NPOV when 10% of the article is criticism and the rest is a [[WP:OR]] violation citing evidence in support of this hypothesis? It is wiki's place to state the hypothesis, it is not wiki's place to argue it, even in part. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 04:33, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Agenda driven AfD nomination. If the article has problems, deal with them, but the subject matter itself is notable and there is too much info to merge it into the larger 9/11 conspiracies article. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 04:56, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:Agenda driven? This article is the one that is agenda driven.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per Alphachimp and Mmx1's comment above. [[User:Angusmclellan|Angus McLellan]] [[User talk:Angusmclellan|(Talk)]] 07:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per Alphachimp and Mmx1's statements; whether or not people believe in it is one thing, the fact that it cannot be reliably sourced or conform to a neutral point of view is another. [[User:Ryulong|Ryūlóng]] 08:41, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - the hypothesis exists and is notable, while also being of interest. Semiprotection would be highly advisable, to limit bad-faith IP edits. [[User:Ace of Risk|Ace of Risk]] 11:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete and reconstitute'''. I think there's a good case for saying that the controlled demolition claim (hypothesis is too kind a word) is notable, as it's been tackled by some quite reputable sources in an effort to refute it. However, the sourcing of the present article is awful. I suggest deleting the present article and reconstituting it from scratch, using only reliable sources instead of the conspiracy cruft that infests it at the moment. -- [[User:ChrisO|ChrisO]] 13:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::'''Comment'''. "Hypothesis" is the word that both the official report on the collapse (NIST) and the most detailed statement statement of it (Jones) uses. This is very clear in the present article, which cites both Jones' emphasis on its hypothetical nature and NIST's use of the same word. As for the sourcing, yes, it is uneven. But the hypothesis itself is easily located in a handful of detailed conspiracy theories ''and'' mainstream media coverage ''and'' the official investigation (brief mention) ''and'' the scientific literature (very brief mention). We need to filter out some noise in the article, not start from scratch. (Though the thought has also occured to me.)--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 15:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Alternatively, you can also choose to replace the fair use image by finding a freely licensed image of its subject, [[Wikipedia:Requesting copyright permission|requesting that the copyright holder release this (or a similar) image under a free license]], or by taking a picture of it yourself.
====Arbitrary line break to make editing easier for all (2)====
*'''Strong & Speedy Keep''' This article is fair, balanced and detailed. It has 108 references! It is a controversial topic, but it deals with both side of the issue fairly. The nominating editor, Mongo, is a well known POV pusher and abusive deletionist who has been frequently and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/3RR#User:MONGO_reported_by_User:_User:XP__.28Result:_12_hours_for_both_XP_and_Mongo.29 recently blocked] for [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/MONGO/Workshop numberious violations]. I belive it is infact the article's fairness and lack of bias that this user objects to. This a a bad faith nomination.[[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 14:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*:I once again appreciate Seabecan's personal attacks and odd linking to an arbcom case which has already resulted in two of those who were harassing me now being indef banned...and this is before the voting has even commenced. Seabhcan claims this article is balanced. The only fact based citations are those from mainstream science, not from non peer reviewed conspiracy theory websites. This article is clearly not capable of ever being neutral, except to those who dream and fantasize that controlled demolition is what really happened on 9/11. My guess is that, as usual, this kind of comment from Seabhcan is deliberately designed to provoke a hostile response...kind of the thing I deal with when he posts edit summaries such as these:[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=prev&oldid=65024234], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=prev&oldid=51496524], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=prev&oldid=51428328] and of course there are more. Seabhcan's presentation of a barnstar to an indefinitely banned editor was also, well, strange, especially when done after he that editor has been banned.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATruthSeeker1234&diff=65288217&oldid=65288015].--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 14:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::Again we behold the wonderous miracle of MONGO logic! Mongo declares above that the article is not 'neutral' on the one hand, yet complains in the previous sentence that the article presents both "citations ... from mainstream science" and from "conspiracy theory websites". Presenting both side of the issue is balance, and I stand by my assertion that it is this very balance that is mongo's main peeve. Mongo wishes wikipedia to contain only his version of truth. If this policy were to hold sway, we should presumably be deleting "[[Islam]]" next. Even if the ideas and theories in the article are untrue, the fact that they are notably discussed and believed by many, even by "those who dream and fantasize that controlled demolition", even if Mongo disagrees with these beliefs, this topic warrants an article. [[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 17:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:*Excuse me, are you calling him a bigot? Citing "both sides" is not sufficient for NPOV, as Thomas has stated so clearly below, the purpose of this article is to present his "sense" of the theories, a gross violation of [[WP:NOT]], [[WP:OR]], and [[WP:NPOV]], regardless of how many citations you put in.--[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 18:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Please don't use terms of abuse on wikipedia. [[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 18:13, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Hum....care to remove your personal attack above. If not I guess the next step will be some further conflict resolution.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 18:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::It is not a personal attack it is a statment of fact. If you can show it to be untrue, I will remove it. Your record of personal attacks and abuse are well known on Wikipedia and there is no need to repeat it here. You deletionist tactics are documented in the dozens of AfDs you have stated, solely against topics you personally disagree with or you feel should not be discussed. And is it not true that you have been repeatedly blocked for policy violations? [[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 09:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::I actually vote in a lot of afds, but I rarely nominate articles to be deleted, so that is an incorrect statement. The most recent block for 3RR was of about a hour only, and the other fellow had himself violated 3RR on two different articles on the same day. The 15 minute block I got was from another wikipedian that has left the project and was villified for performing that block, the third one was from well over a year ago. Your linking to my arbcom case is ridiculous, and surely you know that...I have been blocked for nothing on that matter and two others, including the one who initiated the arbcom is now permabanned. Besides...your commentary about my editing in general on an Afd has nothing to do with the Afd itself and is a personal attack. If you don't know how to argue the merits of the deletion without pointing fingers at the editors, then you should abstain.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 17:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. For God's sake, put this unsalvagable POV fork out of its misery. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 15:01, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' The nomination offers two criticisms of article: (1) the article has become increasingly mired in "conspiracy theory nonsense" and (2) suggestions for improving it have been met with "POV pushing". The accuracy of the second claim can assessed by looking at the article's talk page under "Unencyclopedic"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center#Unencyclopedic] and the associated edits (see especially[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Controlled_demolition_hypothesis_for_the_collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=77251723&oldid=77246891] and compare with Mongo's "demand" in the talk pages.) The vast majority of the alleged "miring" and "pushing" has taken place over the last couple of days, working very quickly (note the cautious tone in the edit summaries). We have been trying to convert a list of curiosities into a coherent prose presentation. Of course, people who think that the views presented are incoherent will consider any semblance of coherence an act of misinformation. Many of us, however, who have looked at these theories in some detail, have come to concede that, even if they ultimately may prove to be false, they do in fact 'make sense'. It is the sense we have made of the controlled demolition hypothesis thus far that we would like to present on its own terms to other readers of Wikipedia.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 17:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:It is not up to you to "make sense" of these theories by presenting evidence in support of it. That runs afoul of the "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position" part of [[WP:OR]]. You are not here to present your interpretation of the facts, merely the facts as the sources state. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 17:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::A hypothesis is very often presented along with the prima facie evidence for it. This evidence is of course provisional and does not constitute proof; it merely informs subsequent investigations and (importantly in this case) it helps us to understand the content of the hypothesis. As with any other article, we are here to help each other understand (i.e., make sense of) the topic. A synthesis of, say, three presentations by conspiracy theorists, along with official responses and mainstream media commentary, without any intention of advancing either the truth or falsity of the proposition that the World Trade Center was brought down by controlled demolition runs afoul of no policy I am aware of. It does look like this AfD is testing your interpretation of Wikipedia policy. And mine.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 18:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Regardless of precedent ("very often"), the [[WP:OR]] policy is clear. "A and B, hence C", is inadmissible if only A and B are citable. The entire statement must be made by a RS to be included. Synthethizing the arguments of multiple theorists is a gross violation of that dictum. --[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 18:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::::OR only refers to presenting a NEW synthesis of events, not reporting on theories published elsewhere. The CT theory has been published outside of Wikipedia. OR doesn't apply. For example, The theory of Evolution was a new theory by Darwin with was Original Research. Had he published it on Wikipedia it would violate WP:OR. However, as it was published eslewhere first, wikipedia may then have an article on evolution with isn't OR. [[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 18:15, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::However, synthethizing the various individual conspiracy arguments into some "grand unified theory of controlled demolition" as Thomas Basboll has done, is a violation of WP:OR. It is no longer Jone's theory or Hoffman's theory, it's Basboll's interpretation (see grandparent post). And that is gross OR.--[[User:Mmx1|Mmx1]] 18:20, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::If he had done that then yes. However, I strongly disagree that Thomas has written any new theory. The article doesn't violate OR. Check the references. Anyway, even if there are small localised violations somewhere(I don't see them) they can be edited, the article shouldn't be deleted because of small content errors. [[User:Seabhcan|Self-Described Seabhcán]] 18:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::It has been my intention to emphasise the claims that overlap in the presentations I know about. I have then tried to correlate these claims with mainstream media coverage wherever possible. There is, to repeat, a lot of work to do. The schema "A and B, hence C" might be a useful guide when we go through an ensure that our own interpretations and reasonings haven't snuck in along the way. I look forward to any help in pointing out such places. But most of the thinking here is being done by the sources we are citing. We're just trying understand what they say.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 18:37, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::Let me add that this AfD is especially interesting to me as a relatively new editor. Not only has my judgment been called into question by the nomination (obviously in a sense, since I created the article), so too have my motives for being here. I should point out that my edits here were made in the same spirit (applying the same sort of synthesis) as the edits that I made on the "official" [[collapse of the World Trade Center]] article, where they were met with what I took to be approval. One of the things I will discover is whether my edits are generally considered acceptable, tolerable, or, well, cruft. I, of course, believe they shine.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 18:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''; agenda-driven POV fork. Gives undue weight to a conspiracy theory of no significance. [[User:Christopher Parham|Christopher Parham]] [[User talk:Christopher Parham|(talk)]] 20:24, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' The controlled demolition argument is one of the strongest and most well known among those who argue that 9/11 was an inside job. The fact that the 9/11 commission report didn't even mention the collapse of building 7, a collapse NIST admits is fundamentally inexplicable, is a red flag to Americans that there are significant unanswered questions concerning the events of 9/11. Those American currently number over 100 million. To say that a discussion of this on wikipedia is "unencyclopedic" is a pure POV play by [[User:MONGO]] and others. If he can't edit articles in a way that fits with the desire for information of a large minority of wikipedia readers and editors, then perhaps he should recuse himself from this debate. The base 9/11 conspiracy article is already overloaded and this is a logical expansion of one of the larger subsections. I don't see how this discussion can get any simpler than that. [[User:Kaimiddleton|Kaimiddleton]] 21:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Weak delete''' or a '''Redirect''' Its one of the major conspiracy theories, but there's so much nonneutral point of view and [[WP:OR|OR]] in the article I can see why it needs deletion. Articles which cannot become NPOV are often deleted. Would suggest a protected redirect, however. There has to be something that's not junk in this article that can be merged back into [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] over time. --[[User:Kevin Breitenstein|Kevin_b_er]] 21:55, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Why should we be judging what is "nonsense" and what is not? That in itself shows the POV of the nominator. The article references its major claims from outside sources so it is not OR. Absolutely no reason why "indiscriminate collection" applies here. Possibly because it is one of the more vague statements on WP:NOT people are not sure where to apply it though. How is this a "soapbox" if it is what commentators are saying. Propaganda in the "soapbox" sense is usually put up by governments as single official stories of what is happening... Why should we follow that definition by deleting this article? [[User:Ansell/Esperanza|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Ans<span style="color:#009000;">e</span>ll</span>]] 01:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. There should be an article here. I don't think this resembles it, but that's no reason not to keep. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 01:32, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. SalvNaut and Basboll's reasoning is entirely persuasive.--[[User:JustFacts|JustFacts]] 02:27, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep'''. The subject is notable and widely known about. It is wiki's sole reason for existence to provide information, which we should do without fear or favour. This article does a very good job of NPOV, by stating and contrasting the competing views, making it quite clear which is the minority and majority take on the subject. I find it difficult to find any relationship between some of the delete reasons on this page and the contents of the article. [[User:Tyrenius|Tyrenius]] 04:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*:The article is forced to rely on unreliable sources to counterbalance the known evidence that is supported by virtually every structural engineer and the majority of the world's media. These sources are unreliable because they are under the control of one or a few webmasters and are outside the peer review process of engineering journals and the normal scientific community. It is wiki's sole reason to exist to provide information, not misinformation. There is no reason this article needs to exist when it can be easliy summarized with reliable sources that meet [[WP:V]] and then returned to [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] from which it was split without consensus to do so.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::The existence of the CD hypothesis is acknowledged by the very engineers (Sunder, Bazant) who have qualified opinions about the subject and has been widely reported in the majority of the world's media, although as a minority view. There is no evidence to suggest that the hypothesis is being vetted by "one or a few webmasters". There are, for example, several books that present a version of it, all (as far as I can tell) by ''independent'' small publishers [I'm actually not sure how small all of them are]. We must keep in mind that this article is not about the collapse of the world trade center, but about a ''hypothesis about'' that collapse. That is why the subject of most of the sentences is either the hypothesis or its proponents, on the one hand, <s>and</s>or the mainstream explanation and its proponents, on the other. In a few cases it presents a fact about the collapses directly (most often with a qualifier like "there were reports of..."). It should of course only do so when the fact is not controversial (the date and time of the collapses, the amount of buildings that collapsed, etc.) My point here is that the article is only "forced to rely on unreliable sources" if it claims controlled demolition brought down the buildings. It clearly doesn't do this. It says that there are people who suspect it was brought down by controlled demolition, and it explicates the main tenets of this suspicion, which, as Time magazine has pointed out, is no longer simply part of a "fringe phenomenon" but of a "mainstream political reality."--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 06:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, I fully understand most of what you state...but to present this "hypothesis" (if that is even an accurate word for such a matter), then ultimately we rely on references that are not [[WP:RS]] and oftentimes fail to meet [[WP:V]]. Synthesis of information to advance a position using sources that are tending tremendously towards disqualification for failure to be reliable is not an effort to build a better encyclopedia, but instead one to advocate a position. The undue weight clause of [[WP:NPOV]] for this hypothesis is enforced on the [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] article, yet here, the minority viewpoint is now the point of advocacy. Wikipedia suffers from systemic bias when we allow this type of article to exist as a fork advocacy article of information that fails to meet policy for inclusion in the main article. Mainstream political reality is meaningless and has nothing to do with an encyclopedia which exists to advance the known evidence that can be referenced by reliable sources.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 06:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Would you be willing to cite which of the 109 sources do not meet RS in your definition here, or in a sub page of this AfD to avoid clutter? Many people have mentioned this that are supporting deletion, and I think it will help a lot to illuminate this point, as it seems to be the main point of contention. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 06:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::I suggest we think of this article as being about "political reality" (i.e., culture) more than about "physical reality" (i.e., engineering). Again, that's why the subject of most of the sentences are people and ideas, not buildings and physical laws. It refers to something people are saying, and only indirectly to what they are talking about. (Unlike the main collapse article, which talks about the facts of the disaster.) None of this is obscure in the article, though the occasional sentence may not quite pass muster. In this sense, the idea that "mainstream policial reality is meaningless" and not of interest to an encyclopedia is of course simply wrong. And that's obviously the sense in which Time mean[t] it.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 06:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::As of this edit now, link numbers 7, 12, 15, 16 (not working for me), 17, 19,20, 24 (not working for me), 27, 28, 29, 32, 33, 35, 36 (both), 40, 41, 43, 46, 47, 48, 50, 54, 59, 67, 68, 70, 78, 82, 83, 84, 85, 92, 104....are all links to websites that are unreliable for supporting the information presented, or are here to advance this minority viewpoint in the form of advocacy.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 07:12, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Whether or not ''this'' article is good, there is adquate evidence that there should be an article under this name. Also I believe the concept to be [[WP:NONSENSE], there are a sufficiently notable minority that believe the concept deserves recognition. — [[User:Arthur Rubin|Arthur Rubin]] | [[User_talk:Arthur_Rubin|(talk)]] 07:17, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::MONGO, as Arthur just mentioned, and also you've also just demonstrated links from a wide variety of global, international sources, highlighting how prominenet in the current world this theory is, and you've also thus demonstrated perfectly it's notability--all those links are talking on a huge array of websites, and also foreign news sources especially, about the theory. Again, as mentioned, international coverage of this is significant, and as Wikipedia does not rely only '''''nor''''' does it apply any special weight or value to any American view or ''lack'' of adequate American view... notability and merit for inclusion again demonstrated. Thank you. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 07:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Reference 43 is a good example of one that is actually quite good but could be improved to be more informative. The sentence claims that some researchers make use of the oral histories of the events. It links to a researcher (Hoffman) who uses them (straightforward correct citation). Hoffman, in turn, has properly referenced his selection of quotes to the officially released oral histories, which have been published by the New York Times, a reliable source. That is, in this case we can say more than just "researches draw on oral histories", we can source those histories themselves to a reliable source.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 08:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::How completely wrong the keepers are when they state that the links I menetion demonstrate notability...it only demonstrates that there are a ot of unrelaibale sources. You guys are weren't able to get this information in the factual based article, so you create this farsical one, which is a POV fork. Shame on you.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 16:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. Also, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 10:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Might make a good section in a more general page on 9/11 theory but this is not encyclopedic. It's a agenda pushing advocacy page, most of the sources come from a tiny handful of people and the rest is original research. I've looked at this and it's a hand waving mess of a POV fork, which we don't do here. This piece of blue sky can be expressed in [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] in as few words as it took to say this. The keep !voters are not convincing. [[User:Rx StrangeLove|Rx StrangeLove]] 04:16, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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== Image:Ff3ds.jpg ==
*'''Keep'''. A valuable article, being a lucid synthesis of conspiracists' claims counterpointed with real engineering. I particularly loved: "which were not open sided car parks". But this article obviously needs serious on-going editorial time to prevent it deteriorating into a free for all. I ain't volunteering, so unless someone is I agree it would be safer to, erm, pull it. [[User:JackyR|JackyR]] | [[User talk:JackyR|Talk]] 10:58, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading '''[[:Image:Ff3ds.jpg]]'''. I notice the 'image' page specifies that the image is being used under [[Wikipedia:Fair use|fair use]], but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our [[Wikipedia:Fair use criteria|first fair use criterion]] in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed image could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this image is not replaceable, please:
:Most/nearly all of the material in the Controlled demolition (CD) article previously existed in the [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] article. Now we have a section, [[9/11_conspiracy_theories#World_Trade_Center]] that discusses CD in brief, with mentions of details (e.g. [[Larry Silverstein]]'s "pull it" quote) in both articles. The editorial time commitment to keep the main 9/11 conspiracy theories and the CD article both saying the same consistent, NPOV, RS things is arduous. The better solution is to put the CD material back into the 9/11 conspiracy theories, and get rid of material that is not in compliance with Wikipedia policies (e.g. [[WP:RS]]). That would take care of the article size issue. The time it takes to keep tabs on the 9/11 conspiracy theories spin-off articles only detracts from the goals of the Wikipedia project. At least, it has taken significant amount of my editing time away from working on other articles, and bringing them to good/featured status. It would be better for Wikipedia to have CD in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article, rather than having this spin-off article which would likely be a [[WP:NOT|soapbox]] venue. --[[User:AudeVivere|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:AudeVivere|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/AudeVivere|contribs]] [[User:AudeVivere/Contributions|as tagcloud]])</small> 16:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The official theory about the collapse of the WTC was unclear. --[[User:Trek00|Trek00]] 11:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per JackyR, XP, etc. You may not agree with the theory; I sure don't. But that's not a reason to delete the article. I also agree with JackyR that this article needs constant editorial oversight to keep it from degenerating. --[[User:Myleslong|Myles Long]] 16:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' This article is ONLY unsalvageable for those who don't have the patience to make the effort to keep it NPOV. [[User:TruthCrusader|TruthCrusader]] 16:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*''Keep''. Wikipedia has articles on [[Flat earth]] theory, [[Phrenology]], [[Kennedy assassination theories|Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories]], ''[[The Mismeasure of Man]]'' and other such nonsense, reporting on what large numbers of deluded people believe. In that spirit, this article deserves to be kept. '''[[User:Argyriou|Argyriou]] 17:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)'''
::And we have an article on [[9/11 conspiracy theories]], so we are providing space for this "nonsense". --[[User:AudeVivere|Aude]] <small>([[User talk:AudeVivere|talk]] [[Special:Contributions/AudeVivere|contribs]] [[User:AudeVivere/Contributions|as tagcloud]])</small> 17:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' and ''ballance'''. From [[WP:V]] ''Verifiability, not truth'' so whether this is "nonsense" does not come into the equation. What is perhaphs a more appropriate policy is [[WP:NPOV]] ''Undue weight''. Firstly is having this article giving undue weight to a particular conspiracy theory? Seeing as how it seems to be the domininant alternative account, covered by a wide varierty of mainstream media I would say not. A second question which does not relate to this AfD is whether this article gives ''undue weight'' to the pro controled demolition advocates against those who disagree with this theory. Jones and Hoffman raise several important questions: namely why were the collapses so neat and tidy, none of the references in the critisim section really address this question. --[[User:Salix alba|Salix alba]] ([[User talk:Salix alba|talk]]) 18:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:This was already decided when the article [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] was written. The consensus there was that few if any websites that document the controlled demotion "hypothesis" were reliable enough for inclusion in that article, so they were not allowed. This article is a POV fork of the other one, and uses the same websites that were deemed by consesus to not be reliable witnesses. Thonas Basboll, Seabhcan and others weren't able to get the Collapse of the WTC article to look like this one, so this was split, without consesus to do so from [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] and enhanced. The article makes a passing mention that [[Steven E. Jones]] has been placed on academic leave for possible misrepresentation that his work on the controlled demolition theory had been properly vetted, yet this article cites Jones work as if it has been deemed reliable. Several articles already summerize the basic arguments of the controlled demolition argument, including and following [[WP:SS]], the article on Collapse of the WTC...it folows the undue weight guidelines of NPOV policy, which is in accord with reliable references. It doesn't matter how many people believe in controlled demolition...if virtually every structural engineer, implosion expert and the world's major media do not support such evidence, then it is a minority viewpoint that deserves, at best passing mention, and/or no mention at all. This POV fork needs to be deleted.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 19:02, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::Mongo is right, we do have a place for this type of stuff, but ''this'' article is a POV fork. We are not deleting the place for this information, only removing the bad info that we can't include anyways due to policy. -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 19:36, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::The problem is that there is by far more than enough media coverage of the theory now to warrant the stand-alone article. POV is not a valid reason for deletion per policy. Notability, however, is valid for inclusion per policy. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 20:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::I'm not convinced that the article, once stripped of [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOR]] violations, would be large enough to warrant a split. Article size is a reason to split, not "importance". -- [[User:Ned Scott|Ned Scott]] 20:40, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::Well, it is incontrivertable that the theory exists, is believed in to some degree (according to constant poll results) by a significant portion of both American and international populations, and therefore "exists". So therefore the question is whether the article content is significant enough size wise to warrant a split. MONGO referenced approximately 1/4 of the listed references. However, many are primary sources about the theory, so they can be linked to as explanations of the theory. That does leave a possible portion of them up for debate--but thats not a deletion clause. For arguments' sake, if neutral, uninvolved individuals were to delete "in contest" content simply to see what was left, the existing article would be roughly 60%-70% of it's current size--altogether too big to merge into the original parent or grandparent, and therefore under policy due for a split. As the theory's notability is also established beyond a doubt, closing admin should thus close this as a pure '''Keep'''. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 21:07, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::::I listed almost half the references as being unreliable and yes they establish notability, but they are all from websites that are unreliable for anything other than to be able to say...there a lot of websites that discuss controlled demolition. The problem is simply that no reliable websites, published engineer reports or even the media support the notion of controlled demolition, so since nothing reliable can be sourced, it isn't encyclopedic except to say that a lot of people believe this issue of controlled demolition. I have made it clear...this article is a POV fork of content that was disallowed for the very reasons of lack of [[WP:V]], [[WP:NPOV]], [[WP:OR]] and other guidelines and policies from the Collapse of the WTC article, so it now resides here...that is the definition of a POV fork...[[Wikipedia:Content forking|look it up]].--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:::::::I have and I strongly disagree with your interpretation and reading of this. Established, incontrovertable facts: '''1)''' The theory is notable in and of itself now due to the massive array of media coverage of it, the 911 Truthers, Jones, Scholars, et al. '''2)''' Many, many people believe in the existence of these theories and their basis, based on the various polls that constantly go around these days. '''3)''' The content simply is notabable enough for coverage on WP, and this seems to revolved around one camp saying x links aren't valid RS, and the other saying they are. '''4)''' #3 is not grounds for deletion. '''5)''' This was a pure fork of the parent, which then expanded--that's not a POV fork, thats what articles do. '''6)''' The parent is already too large. '''7)''' Proper procedure is to clean up this article as it is, not delete it. '''8)''' If the resulting article is too small, then it can be AfD'd for a merger. '''9)''' There is overwhelming concensus here for a keep, as displayed so far, based on all these facts. '''10)''' Above and beyond all these, for procedural reasons this AfD should be tossed as a close. The 1st AfD was [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controlled-Demolition Theory (9/11 Conspiracy Theory)|11 September 2006]], this one was [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Controlled demolition hypothesis for the collapse of the World Trade Center|22 September 2006]]. That is highly inappropriate as AfD is not to be reran until a desired result is reached. '''11)''' AfD is not a shortcut for editorial process. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 21:35, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
# Go to [[:Image:Ff3ds.jpg|the image description page]] and edit it to add <code><nowiki>{{Replaceable fair use disputed}}</nowiki></code>, '''without deleting the original Replaceable fair use template'''.
::I recently discovered that the [[Wikipedia:Content forking|guidelines on forking]] say that ''"since what qualifies as a 'POV fork' is itself based on a POV judgement, do not refer to forks as 'POV' — except in extreme cases of repeated vandalism."'' Mongo, of course, does believe that this case constitutes an exception. The troubling thing is that he has now included my work on the [[collapse of the World Trade Center]] in his (somewhat implicit) history of the (presumably) "repeated vandalism" that allows him to refer to this article as a "POV fork". I encourage everyone to have a look at my edits on that article, and especially this [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center/archive6] talk archive to see how a consensus for the most controversial of them was built. If I understand Mongo's insinuation here then my work on the article between, say, July 20 and 26 (see[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center&diff=65928158&oldid=64930069]) constitutes an extreme case of POV-pushing, which despite the sweeping changes it brought about, left me so unsatisfied that I had to create another article to get all the things in there that were reverted by other editors. Obviously, there is no basis for that insinuation: the article's form and content is very much in line with what I was after and I have come to be very happy with the outcome. Like I say, I am really curious to see what the community's take on Mongo's arguments turns out to be. If they are taken to hold water then Wikipedia is something very different from what I thought it would be. It would mean that this extremely hostile editing environment is indicatitive of the norm, and is not an unfortunate (and hopefully temporary) lack of restraint on the part of what appears to be a perfectly good editor and administrator when working on topics he has a real fondness for and interest in.--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
# On [[Image talk:Ff3ds.jpg|the image discussion page]], write the reason why this image is not replaceable at all.
:::Thomas, it seems very apparent from my previous workings with you, that had you been allowed to violate policy on the Collapse of the WTC article and create an article such as has been done here, you would have originally done so. You did seem to understand at that article why you couldn't have the links you want in this one...what better definition do you want of POV forking?--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 21:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
::::Let me make this clearer. As I understand the guidelines, you need to identify a set of edits to the [[Collapse of the World Trade Center]] article that constitute vandalism, and ''repeated'' vandalism at that. Though it would not be sufficient, you need to identify the edits by which I tried to get those links into that article. (Like you say, I made no such attempts, because I had read the previous discussion and understood the consensus for that article.) You need to identify my ''attempts'' to violate policy, or retract your accusations about my ''intent'' to do so. Sources are reliable relative to the claim being made. Finally, sources that are not suitable for one kind of article may be suitable for another (obviously, I would think). But all this misses the main point: all these links were already in another article. The article was split because the WTC stuff was way too long, not because attempts to insert links were meeting resistance from you. The "extreme" conditions under which the guidelines allow you to accuse a split of being a "POV fork" don't seem to exist. Except in your peculiar interpretation of your "previous workings" with me. Again, I encourage anyone who wants to know about those workings to read our exchanges.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center/archive6]--[[User:Thomas Basboll|Thomas Basboll]] 21:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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* '''Keep''' [[User:Mujinga|Mujinga]] 21:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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*'''Strong Delete''' If you want people to take this encyclopedia seriously, get rid of this POV pushing nonsense. I believe two planes took down the WTC. (but that’s just my belief). Trash this. [[User:Junglecat|<font color="green">JungleCat</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Junglecat|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Junglecat|<font color="blue">contrib</font>]]</small> 21:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
==Orphaned non-free image (Image:PuzzleHMbox.png)==
*:Okay, you seem to contradict yourself, are you saying that it is POV pushing to put down evidence for and against a theory, simply because it has its own page. And then you state your personal POV and use that as your reason to delete? And if a significant portion of the worlds population has tendencies toward the theory, as referenced by polls about the subject, then would they take it seriously if they thought americans were holding back information just because of their POV. [[User:Ansell/Esperanza|<span style="color:#0000FF;">Ans<span style="color:#009000;">e</span>ll</span>]] 22:46, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
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:::My input on this is not up for deletion, just this nonsense article. Please… Have you ever watched a ''controlled demolition'' being organized and documented on TLC or Discovery? Did you know that the WTC had a car bomb go off in it many years ago, and it survived. Those two planes were loaded with jet fuel. But believe what you want. Have you ever noticed that if you "chip" away at the word ''believe'', you can get the word ''lie''? Keep on chippin'. Why should Wikipedia be a platform for this crap? Yes, Delete. Thanks for your input. [[User:Junglecat|<font color="green">JungleCat</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Junglecat|<font color="blue">talk</font>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Junglecat|<font color="blue">contrib</font>]]</small> 23:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
<s>* '''Procedural request:''' This AfD for some reason was *NOT* listed on the log page for the past 48 hours -- why is this? This AfD needs to officially run at least a minimum of 6.5 to 7 days before closure review is allowed, as this has been quited from wide public review. I am adding it there now. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 22:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)</s>
* '''Bizarre''', nevermind. It was cacheing from two days ago; Firefox is possessed. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 22:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' back to [[9/11 conspiracy theories]] So many "strong" votes on this. Let's turn off the emotions, folks, and look at this like robots. Let's read [[WP:POV]] and [[WP:NOT]] and try to personally turn off your thoughts on the subject and judge it according to WP guidelines. There is nothing about this article that should warrant its own page. [[User:Guyanakoolaid|Guyanakoolaid]] 23:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''' For all the many good reasons already cited on here. My comment: It's amazing to see how many people shout out on this page to delete because they see it as "nonsense" and "cruft" and other derogatory descriptors. I expect most have never looked closely at the issue, but "know" to reject anything from the tin-foil hatters which they see this as a part of. They can't bear the thought of such information "spreading," as though it could "infect" more people. But what does any of that emotional bluster have to do with a neutral presentation of information? Seeing such a furious response to this topic makes it all the more clear how threatened most people who are calling for deletion actually must feel about this issue. Most don't calmly cite logical reasons, they are actually furious, and that comes out in their angry retortions. Why do people get ''that'' angry? Because the demolition hypotesis is a powerful threat to their perception of the world and represents something that most people would far prefer not to ever consider -- ''"please just make that idea go away!"'' -- so that their lives can go on as normal. This is a natural response. If it were indeed only "nonsense," say, a stream of letters which contained no meaning, there would be no such level of vicious statements about it as we see here. There would be annoyance, maybe the average blow up over a detail, but not such a level of war. Unfortunately, this makes the task of admins on this issue all the more superhuman -- to literally rise above the massive emotional response that all Americans have to the issue of 9/11 and examine the issue as though a living robot. Best of luck to you. [[User:Locewtus|Locewtus]] 23:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
'''Delete''', for obvious reasons. The day that even '''<big> ONE </big>''' liscensed SE will put an accreditation on the line for this garbage, it can have its own article. [[User:TDC|Torturous Devastating Cudgel]] 23:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
:We aren't discussing the validity of the theory scientifically as a criteria for inclusion, and calling delete based on that is not a valid deletion reason. We don't get to decide if the theory is valid, that's not our business here, our role, or anything else. We just present the facts as neutrally as possible. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 03:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:No one is asking licensed SE's to put their accreditation on the line . . . no one is constructing a building, afterall, but rather, examining theories about a collapse -- SE's aren't the only ones who examine forensic evidence when things go wrong. Failures involving fires and explosions involve much more than just how a particular steel assembly behaves under a load. But sad to think what would happen if even one SE were to get out of line and actually consider the question of the issue, in such an evironment. [[User:Locewtus|Locewtus]] 01:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
:Hi Torturous, just to make sure I understand, you will change your vote to "keep" if I cite for you one licensed SE saying CD is the likely explanation? --[[User:JustFacts|JustFacts]] 01:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
::Afd isn't a vote. · [[User_talk:XP|<font color="#0518A7">'''XP'''</font>]] · 03:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
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