Talk:Separation of church and state in the United States and Jury nullification: Difference between pages

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== Merging ==
'''Jury nullification''' refers to a rendering of a not guilty [[verdict]] by a trial [[jury]], disagreeing with the [[jury instruction|instructions]] by the [[judge]] concerning what is the [[law]], or whether such law is applicable to the case, taking into account all of the [[evidence (law)|evidence]] presented. Although a jury's refusal relates only to the particular case before it, if a pattern of such verdicts develops, it can have the practical effect of disabling the enforcement of that position on what is the law or how it should be applied. Juries are reluctant to render a verdict contrary to law, but a conflict may emerge between what judges and the public from whom juries are drawn hold the law to be. A succession of such verdicts may signal an unwillingness by the public to accept the law given them and may render it a "[[Dead letter#Law/Policy|dead-letter]]" or bring about its repeal. The jury system was established because it was felt that a panel of citizens, drawn at random from the community, and serving for too short a time to be corrupted, would be more likely to render a just verdict than officials who may be unduly influenced. Jury nullification is a reminder that the right to trial by one's peers<ref>[[Magna Carta]]</ref> affords the public an opportunity to take a dissenting view about the justness of a statute or official practices.
I think it is a bad idea to merge this article with the [[Seperation of church and state]] because the events around this in thie United states have so much information and is so specific to the creation of the United States of America that the merged article would become to lenghty, would be hard to maintain and citation/referencing would become a nightmare section in itself. Speaking of which the article lacks sufficient referencing. [[User:Lordmetroid|Lord Metroid]] 14:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:It is a bad proposal, if that was what was proposed. But as far as I can gather, this was to merge a section from that article into this one (see "Merge proposal") below. The discussion petered out, though, so you can safely remove that tag if you like. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 14:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 
{{cquote|I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.
== Philosophical discussion ==
|4=[[Thomas Jefferson]]|5=1789 letter to [[Thomas Paine]]}}
Dropped this from the head of article:
 
Historical examples include American revolutionaries who refused to convict under [[English law]],<ref>[http://www.gaspee.org/WhatstheImportance.html Gaspee Affair]</ref> juries who refuse to convict due to perceived injustice of a law in general,<ref>[http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/penntrial.html Trial of the Quaker William Penn (founder of Pennsylvania), 1670] and [http://www.constitution.org/trials/penn/penn-mead.htm Trial of Penn and Mead] (HTML)</ref> the perceived injustice of the way the law is applied in particular cases,<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/216868.stm Clive Ponting and "Troubled history of Official Secrets Act", 1985]</ref> and cases where the juries have refused to convict due to their own [[prejudices]] such as the [[race]] of one of the [[party (law)|parties]] in the case.<ref>Kennedy, Randall. "Racial Conduct by Jurors and Judges: The Problem of the Tainted Conviction," pp. 277-282, and "Black Power in the Jury Box?", pp. 295-310, Race, Crime and the Law (1997).</ref>
:"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." &mdash;[[James Madison]]
==Background==
s
This appears to be a misattribution or a conflation of a Madison statement with Jefferson. It's undisputed that Jefferson was the one who originated "separation of church and state" - Madison's non-use of the phrase is significant because he (not Jefferson) is regarded as the principal "author" of the First Amendment. [[User:Ellsworth|Ellsworth]] 15:37, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 
Jury nullification is a [[de facto]] power of juries, and is not normally disclosed to jurors by the system when they are instructed as to rights and duties. The power of jury nullification derives from an inherent quality of most modern [[common law]] systems&mdash;a general unwillingness to inquire into jurors' [[motivation]]s during or after [[deliberation]]s. A jury's ability to nullify the law is further supported by two common law [[precedent]]s: the prohibition on punishing jury members for their verdict, and the prohibition on retrying [[criminal law|criminal]] defendants after an [[acquittal]] (see related topic [[double jeopardy]]).
As much as I love this country, I think separation between church and state is wrong. If we kept our Christian values we would have fewer problems altogether. If a couple of people got a bunch of people riled up, that isn't everyone's opinion. We just don't feel it necesary to go protest and go crazy for every little thing. the Ten Commandments aren't hurting anybody, so they should have stayed. This Christmas without Christ is bothering me. He is the reason for the season and if some people dont like it well they can leave. {{unsigned|70.110.215.80}}
:What a bigotted statement. First of all Christmas isn't a real christian holiday to begin with. It is a pagan holiday that christian organized authority replaced with what they seemed more fit because otherwise people would have been more resisting to christianity. For every christian that doesn't celebreate christmas, because their are many different branches of all religions that practices their religion in different ways. This is why the seperation of church and state exists. So that no one needs to be forced by the point of a gun from the government to worship and practice religion in a state-decided way. That is what many of the citizens of the colonies had fled from in the first place. If you like to have a state religion, may I suggest moving to teh Arab-emirates? And you'll see how fun it is to have a state-religion! [[User:Lordmetroid|Lord Metroid]] 14:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 
Jury nullification is the source of much debate. It is maintained that it is an important safeguard of last resort against wrongful imprisonment and government tyranny. It is also viewed as an abuse of the right to a [[jury trial]] that undermines the law and violates the [[oath]] sworn to by jurors. There are fears that nullification could be used to permit violence against socially unpopular factions. {{Fact|date=April 2007}} It can be argued that jury nullification could be used to nullify important defendants' rights, such as the [[Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fifth Amendment]] right not to testify or the right of [[self-defense]]. {{Fact|date=April 2007}} While supporters argue that jury nullification can be used only to acquit and not to convict because a [[judge]] must set aside a conviction that is clearly at odds with the law and the facts, the fact that jury verdicts are treated with great deference in United States courts means that the safeguards are not absolute and a jury that dislikes a defendant has the ability to convict an innocent defendant through nullification. Jury nullification may also occur in civil suits, in which this distinction between acquittal and conviction is of course irrelevant. {{Fact|date=April 2007}}
== First Amendment Fails to Pass Popular Muster? ==
 
Nevertheless, there is little doubt as to the ability of a jury to nullify the law. Today, there are several issues raised by jury nullification.
Does anyone know if it is true that one of the major polling organizations, perhaps Gallup, acutally polled a representative sample of the American public a few years ago and presented the First Amendment as a proposed new law and found that the majority of those polled (at least a plurality if not a majority) found it unacceptable, even somehow subversive? I could see this being an [[urban legend]], but, sadly, somehow I could also easily see it as being true.
* First, whether juries can or should be instructed or informed of their power to nullify.
* Second, whether a judge may remove jurors "for cause" when they refuse to apply the law as instructed.
* Third, whether a judge may punish a juror for exercising his power of jury nullification.
 
==Common law precedent==
[[User:Rlquall|Rlquall]] 18:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The early history of juries supports the recognition of the ''de facto'' power of nullification. By the 12th century, common law courts began using juries for more than administrative duties. Juries were composed primarily of "laymen" from the local community. They provided a somewhat efficient means of [[dispute resolution]] with the benefit of supplying legitimacy.
 
Largely, the earliest juries returned verdicts in accordance with the judge or the crown. This was achieved either by "packing the jury" or by "''[[writ of attaint]]''". Juries were packed by hand-selecting or by [[bribe|bribing]] the jury so as to return the desired verdict. In cases of [[treason]] or [[sedition]], this was frequently the case. In addition, the ''writ of attaint'' allowed a judge to retry the case in front of a second jury when the judge believed the first jury returned a "false verdict". If the second jury returned a different verdict, that verdict was imposed and the first jury was imprisoned or fined.
== James Madison ==
 
This history, however, is marked by a number of notable exceptions. In [[1554]], a jury acquitted Sir [[Nicholas Throckmorton]], but was severely punished by the court. Almost a century later, in [[1649]], a jury likewise acquitted [[John Lilburne]] for his part in inciting a rebellion against the [[Oliver Cromwell|Cromwell]] regime. The theoretician and politician [[Eduard Bernstein]] wrote of John Lilburne's trial:
Although Thomas Jefferson is normally the Founding Father cited when the topic of Seperation of Church State is raised, James Madison is largely responsible for drafting the United States Constitution, not Jefferson. Because of this often overlooked fact and the abundance of writings that we have from Madison to examine, many historians feel that he is the superior choice when trying to detangle the original intent of the Founding Fathers regarding the U.S. Constitution, religion and state's rights.
 
<blockquote>
What did Madison have to say about the Separation Clause? Nothing at all as it was not a term that the Founding Fathers would have been familiar with in their time. Madison did however also pen the Virginia Consitution, and has left us clear personal opinions on his views of religion and it's place in state and federal government.
His contention that the constitution of the Court was contrary to the fundamental laws of the country was unheeded, and his claim that the jury was legally entitled to judge not only as to matters of fact but also as to the application of the law itself, as the Judges represented only 'Norman intruders', whom the jury might here ignore in reaching a verdict, was described by an enraged judge as 'damnable, blasphemous heresy.' This view was not shared by the jury, which, after three days’ hearing, acquitted Lilburne — who had defended himself as skilfully as any lawyer could have done — to the great horror of the Judges and the chagrin of the majority of the Council of State. The Judges were so astonished at the verdict of the jury that they had to repeat their question before they would believe their ears, but the public which crowded the judgment hall, on the announcement of the verdict, broke out into cheers so loud and long as, according to the unanimous testimony of contemporary reporters, had never before been heard in the Guildhall. The cheering and waving of caps continued for over half an hour, while the Judges sat, turning white and red in turns, and spread thence to the masses in London and the suburbs. At night bonfires were lighted, and even during the following days the event was the occasion of joyful demonstrations.
</blockquote>
 
By the late 17th century, the court's ability to punish juries was removed in [[Bushell's Case]]<ref name = "Bushell's Case">[http://www.constitution.org/trials/bushell/bushell.htm Bushell's Case trial report].</ref> involving a juror on the case against [[William Penn]].
"For where there is such a variety of sects, there cannot be a majority of any one sect to oppress and persecute the rest. Fortunately for this commonwealth, a majority of the people are decidedly against any exclusive establishment - I believe it to be so in the other states. There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation. I can appeal to my uniform conduct on this subject, that I have warmly supported religious freedom. It is better that this security be depended upon from the general legislature, than from one particular state. A particular state might concur in one religious project. But the United States abound in such a variety of sects, that it is a strong security against religious persecution, and is sufficient to authorize a conclusion, that no one sect will ever be able to out-number or depress the rest."
 
In [[1670]], [[William Penn]] was arrested for illegally preaching a [[Quaker]] sermon. Despite the fact that the judge demanded a guilty verdict and that preaching the sermon was illegal, the jury in that case acquitted Penn and was subsequently imprisoned, fined, and kept for three days without food or water as a result. Four jurors refused to pay the fine, and one, Edward Bushell, obtained a [[writ of habeas corpus]]. Chief Justice Vaughn, sitting on the highest court in England, discharged the writ, released them, and called the power to punish a jury "absurd". <ref> Simon Stern, "Between Local Knowledge and National Politics: Debating Rationales for Jury Nullification after Bushell’s Case," Yale Law Journal 111 (2002): 1815-48. </ref>
Clearly Madison was quite concerned about the preservation of religious freedom, and felt that America's diversity would ensure that no single sect would ever dominate the new American government. Rather than using a term that he was unfamiliar with (seperation of church and state), Madison gave us the term exclusive establishemnt.--[[User:67.78.7.190|67.78.7.190]] 18:15, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 
:Two of the 12 original Amendments which Madison proposed pertained to religious liberty.
 
:One proposed Amendment was to constrain the federal govenrment. It passed (with some changes to the wording) and was subsequently ratified by the States and became our First Amendment. Neither Madison nor anyone else intended for it to constrain the States.
 
In [[1681]], a [[grand jury]] refused to [[Indictment|indict]] the [[Anthony Ashley-Cooper, 1st Earl of Shaftesbury|Earl of Shaftesbury]]. Then in [[1688]], a jury acquitted the [[Archbishop of Canterbury]] and six other [[Anglican]] bishops of [[seditious libel]].
:The other proposed Amendment was to constrian the States. It was defeated in Congress. It read, ''"No State shall violate the equal rights of conscience, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases."'' It would have restrained the States to a lesser degree that the federal government is (supposed to be) constrained by the First Amendment, and it would have not gone so far as to prohibit official State establisments of religion. Nevertheless, it was defeated by those who thought it encroached upon the proper role of the State constitutions, inasmuch as the purpose of the U.S. Constitution was to define the scope, powers & duties of the federal government, not those of the States.
 
Juries continued, even in non-criminal cases, to act in defiance of the crown. In [[1763]] and in [[1765]], juries awarded £4,000 and £300 to [[John Wilkes]] and John Entwick, respectively, in separate suits for [[trespass]] against the crown's messengers. In both cases, messengers were sent by Lord Halifax to seize allegedly [[libel|libelous]] papers.
:So the bottom line is that Madison thought that the Constitution ''should'' constrain the States by guaranteeing a "right of conscience" to U.S. citizens, but knew that it did not, because the Amendment which would have done so was defeated. Also, he did ''not'' advocate the much more radical step of a federal constitutional provision to force disestablishment of the official Christian churches which then were law in many States and towns. [[User:71.70.174.75|71.70.174.75]] 20:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 
In [[Scotland]] Jury Nullification had a profound effect bringing in (or as others believed reviving) the verdict of "[[not proven|not proven]]". It was in [[1728]] that one [[Carnegie of Finhaven]] accidentally killed the Scottish [[Charles Lyon, 6th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne|Earl of Strathmore]]. As the defendant had undoubtedly killed the Earl, the law (as it stood) required the jury merely to look at the facts and pass a verdict of "proven" or "[[not proven]]" depending on whether they believed the facts proved the defendant had killed the Earl. However if the jury brought in a "proven" verdict they would in effect cause this innocent man to die. To avert this injustice, the jury decided to assert what it believed to be their "ancient right" to judge the whole case and not just the facts and brought in the verdict of "not guilty" which remains in Scotland to this day. Over time however, juries have tended to favour the "not guilty" verdict over the "not proven" and with this the interpretation has changed {{Fact|date=July 2007}}. Now the "not guilty" verdict has become the normal verdict when a jury is convinced of innocence and the "not proven" verdict is only used when the jury is not certain of innocence or guilt.
== Other direction ==
This article contains no information about separation of church and state from the other direction, such as the tax-code bans on what ministers may preach or state participation in religious weddings. -[[User:Acjelen|Acjelen]] 15:26, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
==Nullification in the United States==
== Letter to Virginia Baptists ==
[[John Peter Zenger]], a printer in the English colony of New York, was tried for [[seditious libel]] in [[1734]] for publishing a newspaper critical of the governor. The jury acquitted Zenger despite the judge's instructions; this is perhaps the most famous early instance of jury nullification in the colonies that became the United States.
 
The use of the jury to act as a protection of last resort was espoused by many influential people surrounding the framing of the [[U.S. Constitution]]. For example, [[John Adams]] said of jurors: "It is not only his right but also his duty… to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."
The actual letter does not contain the phrase "separation of church and state"; it was in a comment by the editor of [http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government], a collection of Jefferson quotes. See [http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd7b.htm]. The actual letter is available at [http://www.constitution.org/tj/jeff16.htm] and is entitled "TO THE GENERAL MEETING OF CORRESPONDENCE OF THE SIX BAPTIST ASSOCIATIONS REPRESENTED AT CHESTERFIELD, VIRGINIA. WASHINGTON, November 21, 1808." --[[User:Wasabe3543|Wasabe3543]] 03:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 
First Chief Justice of the US [[John Jay]] wrote: "It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision… you [juries] have a '''right''' to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy".
*1802 "building a wall of separation between Church and State"--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 03:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 
It was over time that judicial and legal opinion slowly changed to consider jury nullification only a power and not a right of juries, as judges and prosecutors wanted stricter enforcement of laws that juries nullified. This shift stemmed from the 18th century conflict between two factions of English jurists, the first led by [[Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden|Lord Camden]], which was originally prevalent in what became the United States, and the second led by [[William Murray, 1st Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield|Lord Mansfield]]. The position of the latter was called "Mansfieldism" by Jefferson<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/tj/ltr/1826/ltr_18260217_madison.htm Letter to James Madison, February 17, 1826], complaining of Mansfieldism</ref> and the shift has been called "Mansfieldization".<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/lrev/jdr/mansfield_recon.htm Mansfieldism Reconsidered], by Jon Roland</ref>
== Clarification ==
 
===Nullification in practice===
What does the following mean?
Nullification has a mixed history in the United States. Jury nullification appeared in the pre-Civil War era when juries occasionally refused to convict for violations of the [[Fugitive Slave Act]]. However, during the Civil Rights era, all-white juries were known to refuse to convict white defendants for the murder of African-Americans.<ref name = "Cato">[http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v21n1/jury.html Cato].</ref> During [[Prohibition]], juries often nullified alcohol control laws,<ref name = "UMKC">[http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html UMKC].</ref> possibly as often as 60% of the time.<ref name = "FIJA">[http://www.fija.org/conrad_on_jury_duty.htm Conrad on Jury Duty].</ref> This resistance is considered to have contributed to the adoption of the [[Twenty-first Amendment to the United States Constitution|Twenty-first amendment]] repealing the [[Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution|Eighteenth amendment]] which established [[Prohibition]].
:''It is commonly accepted that, under the doctrine of Incorporation - which uses the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as the vehicle by which the protections and restrictions of the Bill of Rights are applied to the states - they could not be reestablished today.''
Could someone clarify it for those amongst us who aren't U.S. constitutional experts? For instance, what is the "Due Process" clause of the 4th amendment? - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 23:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In the 21st century, many discussions of jury nullification center around drug laws that some consider unjust either in principle or because they are seen to discriminate against African-Americans. A jury nullification advocacy group estimates that 3–4% of all jury trials involve nullification,<ref name = "FIJA" /> and a recent rise in [[hung jury|hung juries]] (from an average of 5% to nearly 20% in recent years) is considered additional evidence that juries have begun to consider the validity or fairness of the laws themselves.<ref name = "WashPost">[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/jury080299.htm Washington Post].</ref>
:There's a Wiki article that addresses this exact subject: [[Incorporation (Bill of Rights)]]. Maybe we could integrate some of the content of that article here, or at least link to it. Thoughts? [[User:Spiffie|David]] 09:58, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 
In criminal cases, jury nullification arguments sometimes focus on the precise language of the [[jury instruction]] on the [[burden of proof]]. Many jury instructions on the issue of the burden of proof invite nullification arguments. According to these instructions juries ''must'' find the defendant not guilty if the case has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Conversely the jury ''should'' find the defendant guilty if the case has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The permissive language "should" arguably allows juries to consider nullification arguments.
::It looks like the [[Incorporation (Bill of Rights)]] link was already added; I'm not sure if it was there all along. I went ahead and also added links to the articles on [[Due Process#Due process in the United States|Due Process]] and the [[Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fourteenth Amendment]] in the text. [[User:Spiffie|David]] 20:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 
===Court rulings===
:::It isn't "commonly accepted" at all. It has been ''recently'' (just over 40 years ago) accepted by the SCOTUS. For nearly a century, the notion that the Due Process clause somehow transformed the First Amendment into a prohibition against State and local establishments of religion was unheard of. More importantly, it was unheard of until the people who wrote and ratified the 14th Amendment were all safely in their graves (along with most of their grandchildren).
In recent years, judges seem to like jury nullification less and less. While unable to take away the power of nullification, they have done much to prevent its use.
 
The first major decision in this line was ''Games v. Stiles ex dem Dunn'', 39 U.S. 322 (1840),<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/ussc/039-322.htm Games v. Stiles ex dem Dunn]</ref> which held that the bench could override the verdict of the jury on a point of law.
:::It was unheard of because it is absurd. The plain language of the First Amendment explicitly limits its scope to the federal government, only. "Congress" is the federal legislative branch, only.
 
The [[1895]] decision in ''[[Sparf v. U.S.]]'' written by Justice [[John Marshall Harlan]] held that a trial judge has no responsibility to inform the jury of the right to nullify laws. It was a 5-4 decision. This decision, often cited, has led to a common practice by [[United States]] judges to penalize anyone who attempts to present legal argument to jurors and to declare a mistrial if such argument has been presented to them. Jurors are likely to be struck from the panel during [[voir dire]] if they reveal awareness of the concept of jury nullification.<ref>"...the court can also attempt to prevent such an occurrence of juror nullification by (1) informing prospective jurors at the outset that jurors have no authority to disregard the law and (2) obtaining their assurance that they will not do so if chosen to serve on the jury." ''People v. Estrada'', 06 S.O.S. 3702 (2006).</ref>
:::In fact, the Establishment clause is a prohibition ''against'' federal interference with State and local official religious establishments: "Congress shall make no law ''respecting'' an establishment of religon." The word "respecting" meant then exactly what it means now, which is "having to do with." The establisments of religion referred to were the existing official church affiliations which most States (and many towns) then had established. The prohibition is a prohibition ''against'' federal interference with those establishments of religion.
 
A [[1969]] [[Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals|Fourth Circuit]] decision, ''[[U.S. v. Moylan]]'', affirmed the right of jury nullification, but also upheld the power of the court to refuse to permit an instruction to the jury to this effect.
:::Since the very first sentence in the body of the U.S. Constitution gives all federal law-making ("legislative") authority to Congress, a prohibition against Congress making a law is simply a prohibition against that federal law.
 
<blockquote>
:::In other words, the activist SCOTUS of the last half of the 20th century turned the meaning of the Establishment Clause upside down, and ruled that it means almost precisely the opposite of what the plain language says and the intended meaning is.
We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge. If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused, is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision. ''U.S. vs Moylan'', 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969).[http://www.askthelawguy.info/images/moylan.pdf]
::: [[User:71.70.174.75|71.70.174.75]] 18:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
</blockquote>
 
Nevertheless, in upholding the refusal to permit the jury to be so instructed, the Court held that:
::::Actually, no, it's not activist SCOTUS in the last half of the 20th c. In the 1879 decision Reynolds v. U.S., for example, the court observed that Jefferson's writings "may be accepted as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment."--[[User:Vidkun|Vidkun]] 19:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 
<blockquote>
== Background ==
…by clearly stating to the jury that they may disregard the law, telling them that they may decide according to their prejudices or consciences (for there is no check to insure that the judgment is based upon conscience rather than prejudice), we would indeed be negating the rule of law in favor of the rule of lawlessness. This should not be allowed. ''Id.''
I'm changing back the edits made by 12.178.96.81, with a few changes I hope will satisy that person. The reason, if the editor would like to discuss it here, is that the remainder of the paragraph goes on to discuss people and events of the 17th and early 18th centuries, so it's apprpriate to keep those centuries as they are. I edited the sentence to make it clearer that this occurred before the United States was its own country. [[User:Spiffie|David]] 09:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
</blockquote>
 
In [[1972]], in ''[[United States v. Dougherty]]'', [[case citation|473 F.2d 1113]], the [[United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit]] issued a ruling similar to ''Moylan'' that affirmed the ''de facto'' power of a jury to nullify the law but upheld the denial of the defense's chance to instruct the jury about the power to nullify. However, in ''Dougherty'' the then-chief judge [[David L. Bazelon]] authored a dissenting in part opinion, arguing that the jury should be instructed about their power to render the verdict according to their conscience if the law was unjust. He wrote that refusal to allow the jury to be instructed constitutes a "deliberate lack of candor".<ref> [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/juryseminar/USvDougherty1972.html U.S. v Dougherty] </ref>
== Stub Section "Federal Court Decisions" ==
 
In [[1988]], in ''U.S. v. Krzyske'', the jury asked the judge about jury nullification. The judge responded "There is no such thing as valid jury nullification." The jury convicted the defendant, and the judge's answer was upheld on appeal.
Howdy All,
 
I just noticed that the section "Federal Court Decisions" under this article is marked as a stub. I'll be working on it soon, and would appreciate suggestions that someone might have. I guess I'll start by:
 
*Adding much more Federal Court Cases relating to Separation of church and state in the United States
*(Your suggestions here)
 
Also maybe the whole article could use '''a whole lot more''' in-depth information concerning the Separation of church and state debate. (Like the two opposing sides and what info backs up each side???)
 
Thanks - and your ideas are (in advance) greatly appreciated,
--[[User:EChronicle|EChronicle]] 00:19, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 
The 19th century Supreme Court decisions such as Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. (1892) and Mormon Church v. U.S. (1890) that took a more accommodationist view of Christianity and the state are missing. Taken within the context of the developments in Church state jurisprudence since
the 1790s, I think they are relevant.
 
Also, state supreme court decisions from the early years of the American republic and their interpretations of the establishment clause also is relevant. It shows how the states viewed the establishment clause.
--[[User:Pravknight|Pravknight]] 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 
==Religion in the state constitutions==
I also think examining the role of religion in the constitutions of the 50 states after the ratification of the federal establishment clause should be looked at too. Unlike the federal constitution, the majority of them are explictly theistic, and some are even explicitly Christian.
--[[User:Pravknight|Pravknight]] 18:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 
== Thanksgiving ==
 
This may be slightly trivial, but why is "the annual holiday of [[Thanksgiving]]...clearly [a] violation if strict separation is implied"?
 
I was under the impression that the holiday has no history with religious affiliation (besides the significance of Puritans being the first group) and its page even cites it as a cultural holiday as opposed to a religious one. I didn't edit it because I could be horribly naive and would like someone more knowledgeable to clear it up. Thanks.--[[User:Yourmotherisanastronaut|Yourmotherisanastronaut]] 04:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 
== founding fathers were deists? ==
 
This assertion is not supported by the link. Jefferson may have not been a religious person, but that does not mean he opposed organized religions like deists. Furthermore, the wording uses weasel words claiming that the founding fathers were deists...not some but MOST! Find a link that says the founding fathers were deists and opposed organized religion and the sentence stays. If not, it goes. [[User:ER MD|ER MD]] 08:54, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
A couple of them from what I have seen being mentioned on various sites on the internet(Not a reliable source) were deitist. Many branches of religion was represented by other founding fathers though. [[User:Lordmetroid|Lord Metroid]] 14:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 
== Thumbing nose at NPOV ==
 
''"They are monitoring the rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party and the movement among popular evangelicals to transform the United States into a theocracy."''
 
Is it ''possible'' to be more blatantly POV-biased than ''that''?
Is this an encyclopedia article or a Michael Newdow blog? [[User:71.70.174.75|71.70.174.75]] 18:14, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 
:I see that ER_MD has deleted that sentence [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States&diff=58440695&oldid=58102748]. But merely deleting the description and leaving Kkinder's link[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States&diff=50930397&oldid=50061382] does not make this article less POV-biased. It just makes the bias less obvious. Kkinder's sentence is an accurate description of the claimed purpose of that extreme Left fringe web site. [[User:71.70.174.75|71.70.174.75]] 18:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 
== Controversy section ==
 
We don't have a Controversy section, and this is a very controversial law. So why don't we add a section here? [[User:Falconleaf|Falconleaf]]
 
== Abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage ==
 
Abortion, euthanasia, and same sex marriage heavily involve separation of church and state, but they are nowhere in this article. [[Separation of church and state]] has more information than this, the main article.
 
== Interpretive controversies ==
I've reverted changes made in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States&diff=71900815&oldid=68929428 these three edits] (which, oddly, were all tagged as minor). I think the old wording, rather than containing 'weasel words', was careful to provide the facts neutrally, without trying to play up one standpoint or the other. The newer revision, however, clearly attempts to make too much of references to a god - for example, rewording to imply to the casual reader that all four references to a creator actually used the word 'God' and calling the use of the phrase 'The Year of our Lord' 'Christian language' - it was a common term at the time, as that's what Anno Domini (or AD) means in English. I know plenty of Atheists who use the terms BC and AD. -- [[User:Vary|Vary]] | [[User talk:Vary|Talk]]
 
==Discussion of the early disputes over church and state==
Jefferson and Madison may get all of the press; however, they faced strident opposition to their interpretation separation of church and state in their own lifetimes. Supreme Court Justice [[Joseph Story]] stood as both men's nemesis for close to 20 years.
 
This should be discussed too.
[http://candst.tripod.com/joestor3.htm]
[http://candst.tripod.com/joestor2.htm]
[http://candst.tripod.com/joestor1.htm]
--[[User:Pravknight|Pravknight]] 19:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 
 
==Rename proposal==
I know exactly why in the US "seperation of church and state" is used as meaning "sep. of religion and state", but I feel that the current title show a clear [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias|systemic bias]] and is weaselly. It is eurocentric to claim that "church" is used figuratively, in that case why don't we rename it to "seperation of mosque and state", while claiming that mosque is used figuratively in the same way? :)) It really does sound weird to talk (or plan to talk) about Islam, Hinduism and Judaism under "seperation of church and state". I believe the use of "church" is not appropriate and shows systemic bias. I am atheist, so it is not because I am particularly offended or anything, it is just logical and rectifies the systemic bias that I mentioned. Just because that's how it was written in the US Constitution 200 years ago doesn't mean we have to do so today in Wikipedia. :))) The current title should be a redirect to "'''Relations between religions and state in the US'''", or if that's too wordy "'''Secularism in the US'''". I will be starting an article named "Secularism in Turkey" in the same way. Of course with such a rename, it will be talked about, most probably in the intro, how the US Constitution refers to it as "seperation of church and state". I am not proposing this not to favor or minimize a religion or anything, it is just to give it a more contextual approach since this is a constitutional term and not just the general history of the relation between churches and state in the US. [[User:Baristarim|Baristarim]] 03:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 
:It's called that because non-Christian religions in the United States were almost completely insignificant from a political point of view until at least the early 20th century -- and also because several of the British North American colonies and early U.S. states in fact had official government-established Churches. The word "church" does not actually appear in the United States constitution, so that has nothing to do with it... The role of Wikipedia is to reflect the terms which are used in the real world, not to apply abstract logic to produce new terminology that we think should theoretically be used instead. "Secularism in the US" would be an interesting article, but it wouldn't be quite the same as thbis article. [[User:AnonMoos|AnonMoos]] 23:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
 
'''"Secularism in the US"'''
'''''Support'''''
'''''Oppose'''''
'''"Relations between religions and state in the US"'''
'''''Support'''''
'''''Oppose'''''
'''''Comments'''''
 
==Merge proposal==
There is a whole section in the article [[Separation of church and state]] that was copied from this page. That section should be here. [[User:Jcbohorquez|Jcbohorquez]]
:Which one? [[User:Collard|Collard]] 06:54, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 
== reliability of anonymous sources ==
 
The section copied from the Library of Congress webpage is unsigned and unsourced. It shows heavy POV as well, and does not refer to ANY of the massive number of books and articles on the subject written by experts. Therefore it fails the criteria of a reliable source written by experts. [[User:Rjensen|Rjensen]] 14:07, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
:I must agree. Displays at the Library of Congress are subject to political pressure, and are therefore not preferable to printed sources. This is in any case unreasonably extensive quotation from a source without any evidence that it is in the public ___domain. I subjoin it here. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 19:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
::You people are really stretching for reasons to hate this LOC verified and ''sourced'' information, aren't you? Well, the facts remain as they are, and are very well sourced if you'd only care to open your minds....and maybe READ the LOC source documents. --[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 08:27, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm with Mactographer on this one. Yes, the Library of Congress may be an "anonymous source", but that does not make it a non-credible one. The Library of Congress is a respected institution. That "[d]isplays at the Library of Congress are subject to political pressure" means nothing; show me an organisation on the planet that claims to have no political biases whatsoever and I will show you a pack of liars.
:::By the way, regarding "unreasonably extensive quotation from a source without any evidence that it is in the public ___domain", it is a work of the United States' Federal government, and therefore, it is in the public ___domain. Even if it were copyrighted, quoting an entire paragraph almost certainly qualifies as fair use, if properly attributed.
:::If you think that the LOC's exhibit is contrary to any ''other'' evidence from credible sources, then please feel free to cite that other evidence. If not, then you have no reason for rejecting it.
:::(BTW, Mactographer, try to [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|calm the rhetoric a little]]. :))
:::The upshot: I've restored the disputed snippet, with some minor changes that should make it more acceptable. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 07:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::::...And the edit got reverted without explanation. I fail to see what is so objectionable about the new wording (diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States&diff=106312120&oldid=106150379 here]). It doesn't fail the POV test anymore since it merely states what the LOC have to say, and it is as good as any source which anyone else has cited in response (which is to say, none). Oh well. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 14:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::I agree that removing the rant about "Despite what contemporary sources have to say..." was an improvement. However, the long quote about the state becoming the church on Sundays is POV-pushing nonsense; the evidence amounts to Jefferson attending worship services at the Capitol; there are still services at the Capitol nowadays. Jefferson's biographers would disagree that he "consciously and deliberately [was] offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government"; this is as bad logic as it is grammar: he was going to church. Madison certainly deplored worship on national property, as no service either to the functioning of government or (more importantly) to religion (see the link to his memoranda in the article); and Madison's version of the Bill of Rights opposed religion established by the States as well as by the General Government. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 20:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::Pardon me, but since when is saying, "Oh, to the contrary" considered a "rant?" --[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 21:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Being a quadruple negative is a good start. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::??? --[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 23:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::You say Jefferson's biographers would disagree. In that case, as I've hammered into the ground several times in the discussion below this: '''cite them as an opposing view''', rather than deleting the material in question. As for "POV-pushing nonsense", accurately describing a particular POV (which was all the revised piece did: it accurately reported what the LOC had to say, and attributed it to them) is not the same as "pushing" it. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 22:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::The paragraph was POV-pushing when originally written; quoting it ''in extenso'' still is. (POV-pushing exists outside WP; part of the judgment of finding a reliable source consists of recognizing it.) Quoting is also giving undue weight to a minority view, unsupported by the evidence it cites. As for the ''fact'' asserted, it's in our article now. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 22:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: I see you buried it as much as you could. BTW, how can a ''fact'' be considered a minority view? The facts are what they are ... which is that multi-Christian denominational church services were held on and inside federal property from the 1800’s toward the civil war era. And by extension we can assume that this practice was in full support of the public and state officials since there is no written record to the contrary. I repeat, there was NO PUBLIC OR STATE objection to this practice as observed by the contemporary record. This is NOT a viewpoint -- minority or otherwise -- this is supported by the many historical documents the LOC site displays on the site. BTW, I see we've lost all argument to the "anonymous sources" issue now. How many more arguments will we "find" to bury this extremely pertinent data regarding the mindset of the "authors" of our hotly debated "modern interpretation" of this concept? --[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 23:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Guys, let's chill a little. This has gotten a bit uncomfortably heated for me. I've edited in the LOC claim about "the state became the church", but not to as great a length as before. Is this edit acceptable to people? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States&diff=106440854&oldid=106439833 diff is here!] [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 23:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::Not to me. This is not a reliable source; this is a nameless writer of partisan figments, and describing him as "the Library of Congress" is an insult to an honorable institution. This is not the first exhibit in Washington to produce nonsense, and doubtless won't be the last. As for the point being made, it is also nonsense; there have been religious services on Federal property quite often; [http://www.hillnews.com/news/062204/moon.aspx this one], not three years ago, was in the Senate Office Building, and was covered (and so notable enough to find a reference to it) not as unconstitutional, but as weird. I believe there are Baptist services every week. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 02:56, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::Oh, so the LOC ''is'' an "honorable institution" now. Glad we agree! Or do we? After all, you added "unnamed hireling of the Bush administration". Were it not for [[WP:POINT]], I'd be tempted to take this to its logical conclusion and delete every single statement on Wikipedia sourced from a government agency becuz teh bushitler hirez them!111
::::::::::Anyway, I've put "the Library of Congress website". [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 
::::::::::*Public exhibits in Washington yielded to political pressure long before Bush was in office; I suspect they did so when Jefferson was president; as long as I have Malone to hand I may check. But this is an isolated crank; find the same opinion in genuinely scholarly literature, and it may stand. It will probably have two advantages this does not: it will have more evidence than "Jefferson attended services at the Capitol", and it will be expressed more moderately.
:::::::::::*"Hireling" replaced "employee"; as long as I'm reading Jefferson. ;-> [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::Heh. :) [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::And furthermore, in case you missed the link in the edit summary: [http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/credits.html Nameless, schmameless]. I guess we're also meant to believe that although the people named wrote it and put their names behind it, someone from the Bush administration added everything that you disagree with. Step 1) hax0r loc.gov. Step 2) ???? Step 3) World domination! [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:12, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::*I appreciate the sarcasm; but it really is no excuse for citing a text so lacking in evidence. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::Re the sarcasm: any time! ;) Anyway, if nothing else, it can be cited as a POV that can be refuted. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::*And that is not a list of authors. It ''may'' include them, but no-one on it has credits for writing, much less for writing anything in particular. This text ''is'' nameless - and shameless.[[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::You're rather opinionated for someone who slaps POV notices on sections. Bark. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::::If I were grading a paper that based such a conclusion on such evidence I would flunk it. It is more than biased; it's dishonest; and I would object to it whatever its bias. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::::But you'd give them a good grade if they claimed that everyone who works in a government institution and disagrees with [[User:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]] is a plant of the Bush administration. So that's okay. :) [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 04:00, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::No personal attacks, please. ;} I conclude it's been leaned on because it's such a bad article, not the other way around. Do you really think its conclusion follows from its data? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 04:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::I don't know. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 04:17, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::Well, furthermore to the above, it's now "author on the Library of Congress website". I guess this is a reasonable compromise, though a strange one. :) [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::::*If anyone chooses to take out the trash, I will support them.[[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::::Pft. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 03:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
*The explanatory comment by the editor mixes the site content with his comment - and the use of "only" does not appear at the site. The site itself has had to make changes due to messages from editors of this article. The site is a slanted presentation - it presents only one side of the issue & omits any significant mention of evidence that does not support its agenda --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 15:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*The editor here chooses not to include the last sentence in the section below - "In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government." - a statement that at least slightly tempers the issue--[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 15:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
*the LOC's use of "apparently" is weasel-wording. Adding "only" to that compounds the POV --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 15:53, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
::No, it's not "weasel-wording" when it comes from a source that is qualified to say such things. Exactly the same thing goes for explanatory comments. The Library of Congress is not staffed by Wikipedia editors, or people trying to force some kind of political agenda (or at least, no more than any other institution; "itz biased!11one" would disqualify ANY source from use in Wikipedia -- everyone is biased to ''some'' degree, and the truth is always biased). The Library of Congress is staffed by well-qualified librarians and historians who are in a position to put forward a POV on an historical matter. It is our job, as Wikipedia editors, to accurately cite credible sources. The LOC is one.
::And bear in mind that we don't even ''have'' to agree with the LOC. If it is a credible source -- and it is ('''let's hammer that point into the ground some more!''') -- then our job is simply to cite it. If there is any dissent on the matter, then it's our job to cite that as well.
::Regarding your edit summary: I've already addressed the "anonymous" bit above, and you've put no response to it. If someone writing on behalf of a respected institution, it is the institution that matters. And if you want to dismiss a source as "agenda-driven", then you'd better damned well show some evidence that they are driven by an agenda, and demonstrate with real evidence what agenda they are driven by (and sorry, dismissing it just because it's biased does not count, as outlined above). If there are critiques of what the Library of Congress has on their website by equally-or-nearly-as-credible-sources, or any historians that address the same data and come to different conclusions, then please point to them! If there is not, then there is NO good reason to dismiss this evidence. You might not like it (and I don't, and when this issue first came up in [[separation of church and state|the sister article]], I originally deleted it without thought as well. I'm as ardent a separationist as any, though I'm not from the US). But whatever our opinions are, we're not entitled to our own historical facts. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 16:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
:::* Regarding the credits, they are easily discovered [http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/credits.html right here] with a link from the [http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html home page] of the LOC exhibit site. However, it seems painfully obvious that the credits issues is a straw man. I am well aware that it is extremely distasteful for some to have to admit that church services were held on federal and state property during the early administrations of the US government, ''and'' that ''no one'' objected to this practice at the time. In fact, it is apparent that this practice was enthusiastically received. However, the facts are the facts, and they deserve a showing here to illustrate the mindset of the founding fathers regarding the topic as discussed. I have done nothing to subvert the other data or inject a POV into other information as provided on this article. I have simply added a couple of paragraphs which are supported by credible and very well researched data. To simply deny its entry is to be intellectually dishonest regarding HOW and WHAT was practiced during the founding years of our republic regarding religious practices and how they related to the state. The LOC exhibit has provided multiple sources of diary pages and the like which are presented on the web site exhibit to support the claims that are made in my two paragraphs. I am only asking that you accept the facts as they are and stop deleting relevant material based on the "modern" concept of Separation of Church and State. Collard’s rewrite doesn’t flow as much as my original because it doesn’t set up the relevancy for the data that doesn’t support the modern interpretation, but I will go with his rewrite or any well crafted rewrite that doesn’t "bury" the facts. ------------ Bottom line folks, I am not rewriting history. What I've presented did in fact happen. Intellectual integrity demands that modern interpretation of ANY historical topic or concept take in to consideration all relevant data. The facts are the facts... '''Church services were held ''on'', with full support ''by'', the government on federal grounds.''' Will you allow this historical and extremely relevant information to have its rightful place within this article, or will some of you continue to censor it with various excuses for its erasure?--[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 20:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 
:::Like the rest of this campaign, this is a battle with a [[straw man]]. Congressmen worship on Federal property ''now'', and always have. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 03:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
----
* Lewis, I appreciate your efforts. And I salute you for being the ONLY intellectually honest "separationist" willing to defend historical precedent. I don’t understand how the secular progressives can look themselves in the mirror and call themselves the educated elite. They are grasping at straws in every effort to deny the truth of the historical facts. More over, they are ignoring the documentation presented on the LOC exhibit with digital scans of the contemporary written records which demonstrate that regular church services where held on federal property, ''and that'' with full approval of all state and private parties. Any nominally motivated parties would also find such reports as:
 
{{cquote|
'''''Another Thanksgiving Day Proclamation'''''<br />
Congress set November 28, 1782, as a day of thanksgiving on which Americans were "to testify their '''gratitude to God''' for his goodness, by a '''cheerful obedience to his laws''', and by '''promoting''', each in his station, and by his influence, '''the practice of true and undefiled religion''', which is the '''great foundation''' of public prosperity and national happiness."
<br /><br />
'''''Morality in the Army'''''<br />
Congress was apprehensive about the moral condition of the American army and navy and took steps to see that Christian morality prevailed in both organizations. In the Articles of War, seen below, governing the conduct of the Continental Army (seen above) (adopted, June 30, 1775; revised, September 20, 1776), Congress devoted three of the four articles in the first section to the '''religious nurture''' of the troops. Article 2 "'''earnestly recommended''' to all officers and soldiers to '''attend divine services'''." Punishment was prescribed for those who behaved "indecently or irreverently" in churches, including courts-martial, fines and imprisonments. Chaplains who deserted their troops were to be court-martialed.
<br /><br />
'''''Aitken's Bible Endorsed by Congress'''''<br />
The war with Britain cut off the supply of Bibles to the United States with the result that on Sept. 11, 1777, Congress instructed its Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 Bibles from "Scotland, Holland or elsewhere." On January 21, 1781, Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to '''officially sanction''' a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense. Congress "highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion . . . in this country, and . . . they '''recommend this edition of the bible to the inhabitants of the United States.'''"
<br /><br />
'''''Northwest Ordinance'''''<br />
In the summer of 1787 Congress revisited the issue of religion in the new western territories and passed, July 13, 1787, the famous Northwest Ordinance. Article 3 of the Ordinance contained the following language: "'''Religion, Morality and knowledge being ''necessary'' to good government''' and the happiness of mankind, '''Schools''' and the means of education shall be '''forever encouraged'''."
:Another straw man; an honest scholar would have quoted Jefferson ([http://etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/ot2www-singleauthor?specfile=/web/data/jefferson/texts/jefall.o2w&act=text&offset=7021548&textreg=1&query=professorship+of+Divinity To Thomas Cooper, November 2, 1822]:
 
In [[1997]], in ''U.S. v. Thomas''<ref>[http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=951337 U.S. v. Thomas No. 95-1337 (2nd Cir. 5-20-97).]</ref>, the Second Circuit ruled that jurors can be removed if there is evidence that they intend to nullify the law, under Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(b).
<blockquote>
We categorically reject the idea that, in a society committed to the rule of law, jury nullification is desirable or that courts may permit it to occur when it is within their authority to prevent. Accordingly, we conclude that a juror who intends to nullify the applicable law is no less subject to dismissal than is a juror who disregards the court's instructions due to an event or relationship that renders him biased or otherwise unable to render a fair and impartial verdict.
In our university you know there is no Professorship of Divinity. A handle has been made of this, to disseminate an idea that this is an institution, not merely of no religion, but against all religion. Occasion was taken at the last meeting of the Visitors, to bring forward an idea that might silence this calumny, which weighed on the minds of some honest friends to the institution. In our annual report to the legislature, after stating the constitutional reasons against a public establishment of any religious instruction, we suggest the expediency of encouraging the different religious sects to establish, each for itself, a professorship of their own tenets, on the confines of the university, so near as that their students may attend the lectures there, and have the free use of our library, and every other accommodation we can give them; preserving, however, their independence of us and of each other.
</blockquote>
 
In [[2001]], a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving [[statutory rape]] led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law.<ref name = "SMC">{{cite news|url=http://homepage.smc.edu/sindell_steven/AJ3%20Folder/Currentevents/aj3.jury.nullific.html|title=Justices Say Jurors May Not Vote Conscience|work=[[SMC]]|date=2001-05-08|accessdate=2006-12-17}}</ref> However, the ruling could not overturn the practice of jury nullification itself because of double jeopardy: a defendant who has been acquitted of a charge cannot be charged a second time with it, even if the court later learns jury nullification played a role in the verdict.
'''''Christianizing the Delawares'''''<br />
In this resolution, Congress makes public lands available to a group for religious purposes. Responding to a plea from Bishop John Ettwein (1721-1802), Congress voted that 10,000 acres on the Muskingum River in the present state of Ohio "be set apart and the property thereof be vested in the Moravian Brethren . . . or a society of the said Brethren for civilizing the Indians and '''promoting Christianity'''." The Delaware Indians were the intended beneficiaries of this Congressional resolution.
}}
 
All found [http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html here] (emphasis added.)
 
But apparently, on Wikipedia, any evidence that supports the historical demonstration of a strong Christian faith being prevalent and promoted in early US government is "clearly" POV.
 
--[[User:Mactographer|Mactographer]] 05:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 
:'''Bottom line''':
*Many of the Founders disagreed with Madison and Jefferson, and did not follow their advice in their own states, or before 1791. But it was Madison's Amendment they enacted.
**But most of these dissenters, like Henry, didn't disagree very much; they felt that the evils of favoring one sect could be overcome by favoring all sects. This didn't work very well, and was abandoned; in all cases but Massachusetts, by the 1810's. (This last detail is not in the article; but I'm not sure we really need 13 subarticles; it is enough that MA was the last). [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
*Madison's Amendment did not bind the States; and some of them did not, and do not, bind themselves. But he proposed that they should be, and the Fourteenth Amendment does bind them.
*Madison's Amendment does not, and has never been held to, prohibit Congressional chaplains. But he thought they were a bad idea.
 
Although the Supreme Court has not directly confronted the issue recently, dicta in several opinions by Justice [[Antonin Scalia]] seems to imply a strong belief in the importance of the jury, in which the potential for nullification might be thought implicit; juries, Scalia has argued, are "the spinal column of American democracy," ''[[Neder v. United States]]'', "function as circuitbreaker[s] in the State’s machinery of justice," ''[[Blakely v. Washington]],'' and while trial by jury "has never been efficient… it has always been free," ''[[Apprendi v. New Jersey]]''.
The article now says all these things. Please stop pushing. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 06:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:It does? [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 15:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::Which of them do you see as missing? It should be added. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
*And, most important: Wikipedia is '''not''' a vehicle to Enlighten the Multitude, and Bring to Light Forgotten Truth (anybody's forgotten truth; there are so many); it is a catalogue of the errors which presently possess mankind. If you want to send a message, get e-mail. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 06:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::No, but it is a place to present the historical evidence fairly. As far as I saw (and see) it, that was the issue at hand here, nothing else. [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 15:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
:::Is citing an isolated, poorly evidenced, and widely condemned remark as though it were supported by scholarship presenting the historical evidence fairly? [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:54, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
::::Show me the sources for scholars "widely condemn[ing]" that quote and I'll start listening. Though, I'm pretty much done with this issue. I hate fighting. :/ [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 06:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::Ignore the above; I only just noticed the section on Hutson below. Sorry! [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 06:47, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
===Practices of the Jefferson and Madison administrations===
[[Image:Sermon-cover-text.jpg|thumb|right|A copy of a sermon on the Second Coming of Christ, and on the Last Judgment. This sermon was delivered by John Hargrove on December 25th 1804 before both houses of Congress, at the Capitol in the city of Washington.]]Despite the contemporary claims that Jefferson and Madison were strict proponents of the concept of separation of church and state as it is currently presented in modern debate, it is a common misconception to assume that religion was not associated with the practice of politics in early American life. The '''[http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html Religion and the Founding of the American Republic]''' website exhibit at the Library of Congress states,
{{cquote| It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of [[Thomas Jefferson]] ([[1801]]-[[1809]]) and of [[James Madison]] ([[1809]]-[[1817]]) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the [[United_States_House_of_Representatives|House of Representatives]]. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. ([[One_Holy_Catholic_and_Apostolic_Church|Catholic]] priests began officiating in [[1826]].) As early as January [[1806]] a female evangelist, [[Dorothy_Ripley|Dorothy Ripley]], delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President [[Aaron Burr]], and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the [[Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States|Supreme Court]] chambers.
 
===Advocacy groups===
Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion. In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government. <ref>http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html</ref>}}
Some advocacy groups and websites such as the:
* [[Fully Informed Jury Association]]
* [http://www.levellers.org/jrp The Jury Rights Project]
* [http://www.jurypower.org The Jury Education Committee ]
argue that private parties in cases where the government is the opponent have the right to have juries be instructed that they have the right and duty to render a verdict contrary to legal positions they believe to be unjust or unconstitutional. These and other organizations contact citizens directly and lobby for legal reforms regarding instructions given to jurors.
* [http://www.constitution.org/jury/pj/pj-us.htm Constitution Society] Presents historical documentation that supports the proposition that to be a lawful jury trial, all issues of law must be argued in the presence of the jury, with the exception of those that cannot be argued without revealing evidence that is properly excluded.
 
===Opponents===
== Former state churches in [[British North America]] ==
 
A notable opponent of jury nullification is former judge and unsuccessful Supreme Court nominee [[Robert Bork]]. In an essay he wrote jury nullification is a "pernicious practice".<ref> [http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9906/articles/bork.html Thomas More for Our Season] Robert H. Bork </ref>
{| align=left border=1 cellpadding=4 cellspacing=1 bgcolor="#ffffb0"
! style="background: #f0f0f0"| Colony
! style="background: #f0f0f0"| Denomination
! style="background: #f0f0f0"| Disestablishment
! style="background: #f0f0f0"| Founder(s)<br>
|-
|[[Connecticut]]||[[Congregationalist Church|Congregational]]||1818||[[Thomas Hooker]]
|-
|[[Delaware]]||free -Christianity for office|| -- ||[[William Penn]]
|-
|[[Georgia (U.S. state)|Georgia]]||originally free (except for Catholic), then [[Anglican]]||by 1791||[[James Oglethorpe]]
|-
|[[Maryland]]||[[Roman Catholic]] then [[Anglican]]||after 1791 ||[[Lord Baltimore]]
|-
|[[Massachusetts]]||[[Congregationalist Church|Congregational]]||1833||[[Pilgrims]], then [[Puritans]]
|-
|[[New Hampshire]]||[[Congregationalist Church|Congregational]]||1819||[[John Mason]]
|-
|[[New Jersey]]||Dutch Reformed, then mixed Protestant|| -
|-
|[[New York]]||Dutch Reformed, then (incompletely) [[Anglican]]||by 1791
|-
|[[North Carolina]]||[[Anglican]]||by 1791
|-
|[[Pennsylvania]]||free -Christianity for office|| -- ||[[William Penn]]
|-
|[[Rhode Island]]||free|| -- ||[[Roger Williams]]
|-
|[[South Carolina]]||[[Anglican]]||1790
|-
|[[Virginia]]||[[Anglican]]||1786||London Virginia Company
|-
!colspan=4 style="background: #f0f0f0"|Canada
|-
|[[Lower Canada]](Quebec)||[[Roman Catholic]]||
|-
|[[New Brunswick]]||[[Anglican]]
|-
|[[Newfoundland]]||[[Anglican]]
|-
|[[Nova Scotia]]||[[Presbyterian]]
|-
|[[Prince Edward Island]]||[[Anglican]]
|-
|[[Upper Canada]](Ontario)||[[Anglican]]
|}
<br clear=all>
Vermont - 1807
 
==Nullification in Canada==
Although very rare, nullification does occur in Canada, however the Crown (prosecution) has a broader power to appeal rulings than in the US. So while a jury ''may'' ignore a judge's direction, Canadian law allows the prosecution to appeal from an acquittal (see also [[Double jeopardy]]). The often referenced case of jury nullification being appealed all the way to the country's highest court in Canada is the 1988 Supreme Court case, ''[[R. v. Morgentaler]], 1988 SCR 30'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1988/1988rcs1-30/1988rcs1-30.html].
In addition, the Supreme Court of Canada, in a more recent decision ''R. v. Krieger 2006 SCC 47'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2006/2006scc47/2006scc47.html], confirmed that juries in Canada have the power to refuse to apply the law when their consciences require that they do so. The issue was also touched upon in ''R. v. Latimer, 2001 SCC 1'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2001/2001scc1/2001scc1.html], where "The trial did not become unfair simply because the trial judge undermined the jury’s de facto power to nullify. In most if not all cases, jury nullification will not be a valid factor in analyzing trial fairness for the accused. Guarding against jury nullification is a desirable and legitimate exercise for a trial judge; in fact a judge is required to take steps to ensure that the jury will apply the law properly."
 
==Nullification in the UK==
*http://www.dinsdoc.com/cobb-1-6.htm
In 1982, during the [[Falklands War]], the British Navy sunk an Argentine Cruiser – the “[[ARA General Belgrano]]”. A government employee (civil servant) named [[Clive Ponting]] leaked two government documents concerning the sinking of the cruiser to the press, and was subsequently charged with breaching the [[Official Secrets Act]]. The judge in the case directed the jury to convict Ponting as he had clearly broken the Official Secrets Act by leaking official information about the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. His main defence, that it was in the public interest that this information be made available, was not a defence at all in law, but the jury nevertheless acquitted him, much to the consternation of the Government. He had argued that he had acted out of 'his duty to the interests of the state'; the judge had argued that [[civil servants]] owed their duty to the government.
 
==Nullification in popular fiction==
*http://www.churchstate.org/Articles/Finding_Common_Ground.htm
On the American [[legal drama]] ''[[Law & Order]]'', in the eighth season episode "Nullification," the members of a [[Christian Patriot]] [[Militia_%28United_States%29#Modern_Private_Militia_organizations|militia]] are indicted for [[murder]] and [[robbery|armed robbery]] for their role in the attempted [[hijacking]] of an [[armored car]]. At trial, the leader of the militia ([[Denis O'Hare]]), who represents the group ''[[pro se]]'', argues that they are fighting a [[war]] against the illegitimate government of the United States, and that therefore the [[defendant]]s are [[prisoner of war|prisoners of war]] unlawfully detained in violation of the [[Geneva Conventions]]. In his [[testimony]], and later in his [[closing argument]], he explicitly argues in favor of jury nullification in the case as a blow against the "[[New World Order (conspiracy)|New World Order]]" and government tyranny. Although the prosecution manages to disqualify and replace two jurors who express sympathy with the militia cause, the trial ends in a [[hung jury]], as one or more jurors agree with the argument in favor of nullification.
*http://www.churchstate.org/article.php?id=5&action=print&PHPSESSID=25791bc8ff4e76678cd3c0b33becdfed
 
Although that is the only time that ''Law & Order'' specifically addresses the issue of jury nullification, it has occurred in other episodes. In the eighth season episode "Burden," for example, a jury, deprived of evidence demonstrating the work of a [[serial killer]], votes to acquit an [[narcissism|egomaniacal]] [[physician]] ([[John Hickock]]) who claims that the death of a young boy in a [[persistent vegetative state]] was an act of [[euthanasia]]. Later, in the eleventh season episode "Standoff," a jury acquits a [[corrections officer]] ([[Matt Mulhern]]) who hired a [[contract killing|contract killer]] to eliminate his fiancee's [[rape|rapist]].
*http://www.bjconline.org/resources/sermons/060709_walker_pluralism.htm
*http://www.bjconline.org/resources/
 
On the legal drama ''[[The Practice]]'', which follows criminal trials from the [[Defense (legal)|defense attorney]]'s perspective, the characters use jury nullification on a fairly regular basis, especially when they defend clients accused of so-called [[victimless crime]]s such as [[prostitution]], [[bookmaking]], or [[drug possession]]. The strategy usually used in such situations, known as "This Is America" to its practitioners, was essentially an appeal to [[patriotism]].
*http://members.tripod.com/~candst/cnstntro.htm
 
During the first season of the show, a multi-episode [[story arc]] concerns the defense of a grieving father ([[Jack Laufer]]) who murdered his daughter's recently-[[acquittal|acquitted]] killer ([[Greg Wrangler]]). Although the official defense is [[diminished responsibility]], it amounts to a pitch for jury nullification, given overwhelming evidence of [[premeditation]]. After a prosecution spanning four episodes, the defendant is acquitted on all charges.
:The first constitution to prohibit religious tests was the United States Constitution written in 1787
 
==See also==
:The treatment of religion in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is notably different from the provisions in state constitutions; not only are the national clauses noticeably shorter in both number and length, but the completeness of their prohibitions is unprecedented--no religious tests, no establishments, no laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion. In all state constitutions there are some limits placed on these religious liberties. But the national government under the U.S. Constitution is prevented by clear and bold language from any power to control religion. Even the Preamble lacks the common reference to God which is even found in most current state constitutions.
* [[Death-qualified jury]]
* [[Jury duty]]
* [[Laura Kriho]]
* [[Ed Rosenthal]]
* [[Josephine Terranova]]
* [[Peter Wright]]
* [[John Peter Zenger]]
* ''[[Citizens Rule Book]]''
 
== References ==
Many states kept religious tests & other restrictions - 7 states still have some
Eduard Bernstein, ''Sozialismus und Demokratie in der grossen englischen Revolution'' (1895); trans. H.J.Stenning (1963, NYC) as ''Cromwell and Communism: Socialism and Democracy in the Great English Revolution'', Library of Congress 63-18392.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/texas.htm <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:JimWae|JimWae]] ([[User talk:JimWae|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/JimWae|contribs]]) 19:05, 4 February 2007 (UTC).</small><!-- HagermanBot Auto-Unsigned -->
*Well, that's wrong for NJ, in which the Anglican church was never established, and a test of Protestantism ''for office only'' was permitted, not required, by the [[New Jersey Constitution of 1776]]. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 19:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
** I will check the sources I have provided re NJ before the revolution - what I saw before was that in both NJ & NY the establishment of Anglicanism existed but was not complete in every county --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
***Your sources are being misleading. The [[James II of England|Duke of York]] required that every parish support ''some'' church; but this was more often Dutch Reformed, Quaker or Presbyterian, than Anglican. He also ordained that the tax-payer was free, having paid his local tax, to go to some other church. The first Anglican minister in NJ arrived in 1700; Anglicanism was more popular in (wealthy, posh) NY. Whether this counts as an establishment at all (it would fail modern constitutional tests) is debateable; it certainly wasn't an establishment of Anglicanism. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
*And this statement is unsourced, and is false for Connecticut and Rhode Island: ''Before the [[American Revolution]], the [[Church of England]] was the established church in every colony from New York to Georgia, except for Pennsylvania and Delaware (which had no state church, but did require office-holderes to be Christian). '' [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 21:28, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
**Do you consider CT & RI being between NY & GA? --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
***My apologies, I swear I saw "Maine"; but it's not true for NJ either; and MD is a matter of dating. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
**Reviewing the sources, it seems the establishment of religion in NY & NJ was quite incomplete - with the requirement for Anglicanism being parts of NY & perhaps East Jersey only, though Protestantism was a requirement for office. To be on firm ground, the extent claim for established Anglicanism should be from MD to GA --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 07:08, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
***Requirement for office should get a section of its own, since a [[Test Act]] was clearly compatible with the most fervent language on liberty of conscience. The East Jersey ''charter'' required that members of the Assembly be Christians; the inclusion of Catholics is not surprising: the chief proprietors of the [[Perth Amboy, New Jersey]] settlement were Scotch Catholic peers. There was a militia oath of 1756 which required the officers to abjure the pretensions of the Pope; but it is purely negative and a Muslim or a Jew could take it. I'm not sure this was required during the Revolution; there were Irish militia officers, and a new oath, requiring only fidelty to New Jersey, had been enacted by 1799. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
*This paragraph is wrong on its dating, and also wrong on New Hampshire.
**''The Puritan movement remained strong in New England states, where the Congregational Church was and continued to be the state church in every state except Rhode Island. Anglican parishioners in New England became [[Methodists]], [[Baptists]], and [[Presbyterians]]. By the 1840's only the New England states aside from Rhode Island had established churches.''
*** so 1840s (which was there when I got there) needs changing. What info do you have on NH? --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 06:18, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
****Just the New Hampshire constitution of (IIRC) 1792; shortly after the First Amendment anyway. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 15:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
*** I suppose the most we could salvage from that sentence would be that New England states were the last to disestablish - MA, CT
***http://www.dinsdoc.com/cobb-1-9.htm
****In New Hampshire the constitution of 1776 made no provision in regard to religious matters. A state convention in 1779 submitted another constitution to the people, which was not adopted, but its utterance on the rights of conscience may be noted here as indicating the growth of sentiment. The section read: “The future legislation of this state shall make no laws to infringe the rights of Conscience, or any other of the natural, unalterable Rights of Men, or contrary to the laws of God, or against the Protestant religion.”(New Hampshire Historical Society, V, 155.) Another convention in 1781 adopted a Bill of Rights similar to that of the Massachusetts convention of 1780, and in an address thereon remarked: “We have endeavored to ascertain and define the most important and essential rights of man. We have distinguished between alienable and unalienable rights. For the former of which men may receive an equivalent; for the latter, or the rights of conscience, they can receive none: The world itself being wholly inadequate to the purchase. ‘For what is a man profited, though he should gain the whole world and lose his own soul?’ The various modes of worship among mankind are founded in their various sentiments and beliefs concerning the Great Object of all religious worship and adoration . . . therefore, to Him alone, and not to man, are they accountable for them.”
****This seems to reach far enough, but in spite of it, the constitution of 1781, as also that of 1784, left unchanged the old colonial law which made the Church a town institution and its support a matter of public tax, and discriminated also in favor of the Protestant religion. (New Hampshire Historical Society, V, 175.)
** it appears that many states considered - & some passed (or kept) - legislation that did not establish any one denomination, but did support & establish Protestant Xty. Another section --[[User:JimWae|JimWae]] 15:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
***Not just Protestants (see Pennsylvania); New Jersey may well have had a narrower Test than most. IIRC it was a last-minute compromise intended not to scare the conservatives; the British were on Staten Island when it was written. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 16:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
==Hutson is not a reliable source==
He is an isolated and irresponsible crank. To quote him against the consensus of scholarship is to give undue weight to the unsupported opinions of a solirary extremist; if he is to be discussed at all, his tempest in a teapot should be discussed as a recent and unfortunate development.
 
<references/>
The clearest denunciation is reprinted [http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/jeff2.htm here]; please note that the signers include the editor of the Madison Papers. Hutson himself describes the cause of the offense as the claim that "Jefferson's principal motive in writing the Danbury Baptist letter was to mount a counterattack against his political enemies.: Without the word principal, this thesis would not have been controversial; indeed, it would not have been publishable, lacking any element of novelty. All of the argument that it was, in part, an attack (and the strategy of that attack) can be found in the standard biography of Jefferson (Malone ''Jefferson'' 4;109); what Nutson omits is that it was (as Jefferson's utterances usually were) a statement of principle also. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 04:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 
==External links==
Hutson's evidence for his revisionism consists of the deletion of a portion of the proposed letter which deprecated offically announced thanksgivings. Since the fact that Jefferson planned to say this and did not (after consulting a New Englander) is also in Malone, this is another novel and unsupported interpretation of long-known evidence. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] <small>[[User talk:Pmanderson|PMAnderson]]</small> 04:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
* [http://www.marx.org/reference/archive/bernstein/works/1895/cromwell/index.htm ''"Cromwell and Communism"'' aka ''Socialism and Democracy in the Great English Revolution'']
* [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html ''Jury Nullification'' by Doug Linder]
* [http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html ''Jury Nullification: Why you should know what it is'' by Russ Emal]
* [http://www.caught.net/juror.htm ''Juror's Handbook - A Citizen's Guide to Jury Duty'' by the American Jury Institute]
* [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=38730&pageno=1 ''Essay on the Trial by Jury''] by [[Lysander Spooner]]
* [http://www.fija.org ''FIJA''] - Fully Informed Jury Association
 
[[Category:Court systems]]
*Review of the resulting book in Wm. and Mary Q (59,4) calls it "a selective survey"; I see this exact criticism was made, and dismissed, above.
[[Category:Criminal law]]
 
[[he:ביטול על ידי מושבעים]]
*[http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0043-5597%28199910%293%3A56%3A4%3C817%3ATBTBAT%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W The Baptists, the Bureau, and the Case of the Missing Lines,]] by Isaac Kramnick; R. Laurence Moore The William and Mary Quarterly; 56,4, p. 817-822 points out one of these omissions; there were only two churches in Washington before 1809, both very small.
::Okay. You were right that someone in the LOC really ''is'' a crank on this matter, and for that reason, the LOC exhibit is not to be trusted. Thank you for bringing this to light; if you had done this earlier we could have avoided the very ugly discussion above. :/ [[User:Collard|Lewis Collard]] 06:51, 9 February 2007 (UTC)