Talk:Socialism/Archive 5 and Jury nullification: Difference between pages

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'''Jury nullification''' refers to a rendering of a not guilty [[verdict]] by a trial [[jury]], disagreeing with the [[jury instruction|instructions]] by the [[judge]] concerning what is the [[law]], or whether such law is applicable to the case, taking into account all of the [[evidence (law)|evidence]] presented. Although a jury's refusal relates only to the particular case before it, if a pattern of such verdicts develops, it can have the practical effect of disabling the enforcement of that position on what is the law or how it should be applied. Juries are reluctant to render a verdict contrary to law, but a conflict may emerge between what judges and the public from whom juries are drawn hold the law to be. A succession of such verdicts may signal an unwillingness by the public to accept the law given them and may render it a "[[Dead letter#Law/Policy|dead-letter]]" or bring about its repeal. The jury system was established because it was felt that a panel of citizens, drawn at random from the community, and serving for too short a time to be corrupted, would be more likely to render a just verdict than officials who may be unduly influenced. Jury nullification is a reminder that the right to trial by one's peers<ref>[[Magna Carta]]</ref> affords the public an opportunity to take a dissenting view about the justness of a statute or official practices.
 
{{cquote|I consider trial by jury as the only anchor yet imagined by man by which a government can be held to the principles of its constitution.
==Archive==
|4=[[Thomas Jefferson]]|5=1789 letter to [[Thomas Paine]]}}
 
Historical examples include American revolutionaries who refused to convict under [[English law]],<ref>[http://www.gaspee.org/WhatstheImportance.html Gaspee Affair]</ref> juries who refuse to convict due to perceived injustice of a law in general,<ref>[http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/penntrial.html Trial of the Quaker William Penn (founder of Pennsylvania), 1670] and [http://www.constitution.org/trials/penn/penn-mead.htm Trial of Penn and Mead] (HTML)</ref> the perceived injustice of the way the law is applied in particular cases,<ref>[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/216868.stm Clive Ponting and "Troubled history of Official Secrets Act", 1985]</ref> and cases where the juries have refused to convict due to their own [[prejudices]] such as the [[race]] of one of the [[party (law)|parties]] in the case.<ref>Kennedy, Randall. "Racial Conduct by Jurors and Judges: The Problem of the Tainted Conviction," pp. 277-282, and "Black Power in the Jury Box?", pp. 295-310, Race, Crime and the Law (1997).</ref>
Earlier discussions:
==Background==
*[[Talk:Socialism/Archive 1]]
*[[Talk:Socialism/Archive 2]] (doesn't seem to exist! -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 09:06, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC))
*[[Talk:Socialism/Socialism and Nazism]] -- archive of extensive discussion on this topic from Jan 2004. Also includes the discussion that resulted in a bullet list of types of socialism (the two issues were intertwined). Inevitably, other topics were also touched on, but I have endeavored to leave in the present page the few clearly unrelated exchanges on the present page during that very heated period. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 09:29, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 
Jury nullification is a [[de facto]] power of juries, and is not normally disclosed to jurors by the system when they are instructed as to rights and duties. The power of jury nullification derives from an inherent quality of most modern [[common law]] systems&mdash;a general unwillingness to inquire into jurors' [[motivation]]s during or after [[deliberation]]s. A jury's ability to nullify the law is further supported by two common law [[precedent]]s: the prohibition on punishing jury members for their verdict, and the prohibition on retrying [[criminal law|criminal]] defendants after an [[acquittal]] (see related topic [[double jeopardy]]).
== Interlanguage ==
 
Jury nullification is the source of much debate. It is maintained that it is an important safeguard of last resort against wrongful imprisonment and government tyranny. It is also viewed as an abuse of the right to a [[jury trial]] that undermines the law and violates the [[oath]] sworn to by jurors. There are fears that nullification could be used to permit violence against socially unpopular factions. {{Fact|date=April 2007}} It can be argued that jury nullification could be used to nullify important defendants' rights, such as the [[Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution|Fifth Amendment]] right not to testify or the right of [[self-defense]]. {{Fact|date=April 2007}} While supporters argue that jury nullification can be used only to acquit and not to convict because a [[judge]] must set aside a conviction that is clearly at odds with the law and the facts, the fact that jury verdicts are treated with great deference in United States courts means that the safeguards are not absolute and a jury that dislikes a defendant has the ability to convict an innocent defendant through nullification. Jury nullification may also occur in civil suits, in which this distinction between acquittal and conviction is of course irrelevant. {{Fact|date=April 2007}}
For fun, it's interesting to read what other language wikis have to say about the subject.
 
Nevertheless, there is little doubt as to the ability of a jury to nullify the law. Today, there are several issues raised by jury nullification.
Summaries:
* First, whether juries can or should be instructed or informed of their power to nullify.
* Dutch : '''Socialism''' started in the 19th century, it started with marx, but it's changed a lot since then. Here's a list of socialist .orgs in .nl (not a literal translation). The note at the end is enlightening: ''"Note that in the USA, '''socialism''' is a swearword." '' Talk about blunt dutch people.
* Second, whether a judge may remove jurors "for cause" when they refuse to apply the law as instructed.
* Third, whether a judge may punish a juror for exercising his power of jury nullification.
 
==Common law precedent==
*French : '' " '''Socialism''' is a collective political ideology who's goal it is to protect people against attacks on their wellbeing'' " , um, my french sucks...
The early history of juries supports the recognition of the ''de facto'' power of nullification. By the 12th century, common law courts began using juries for more than administrative duties. Juries were composed primarily of "laymen" from the local community. They provided a somewhat efficient means of [[dispute resolution]] with the benefit of supplying legitimacy.
 
Largely, the earliest juries returned verdicts in accordance with the judge or the crown. This was achieved either by "packing the jury" or by "''[[writ of attaint]]''". Juries were packed by hand-selecting or by [[bribe|bribing]] the jury so as to return the desired verdict. In cases of [[treason]] or [[sedition]], this was frequently the case. In addition, the ''writ of attaint'' allowed a judge to retry the case in front of a second jury when the judge believed the first jury returned a "false verdict". If the second jury returned a different verdict, that verdict was imposed and the first jury was imprisoned or fined.
*German : Makes a divide between Realsozialismus (from the old soviet union) , and Sozialdemokratie (which is what's used in western germany). Remember that germany was split in east and west? It's really interesting to see that split showing up on the wikipedia :-) . The intro paragraph goes: '' " '''Socialism''' is the set of political theories wherein justice and the freeing of the individual within society are central" ''. (translating meaning->meaning)
 
This history, however, is marked by a number of notable exceptions. In [[1554]], a jury acquitted Sir [[Nicholas Throckmorton]], but was severely punished by the court. Almost a century later, in [[1649]], a jury likewise acquitted [[John Lilburne]] for his part in inciting a rebellion against the [[Oliver Cromwell|Cromwell]] regime. The theoretician and politician [[Eduard Bernstein]] wrote of John Lilburne's trial:
[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 08:09, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
<blockquote>
::The French definition is particularly difficult to translate - made worse by the use of the term "ontology" which is a slippery term in either language. But perhaps it is something we could work with. Another way of rendering it might be: '' " '''Socialism''' is a collectivist political ideology which advocates defending the interests of workers in relations of social conflict." '' [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 02:44, 2004 Mar 31 (UTC)
His contention that the constitution of the Court was contrary to the fundamental laws of the country was unheeded, and his claim that the jury was legally entitled to judge not only as to matters of fact but also as to the application of the law itself, as the Judges represented only 'Norman intruders', whom the jury might here ignore in reaching a verdict, was described by an enraged judge as 'damnable, blasphemous heresy.' This view was not shared by the jury, which, after three days’ hearing, acquitted Lilburne — who had defended himself as skilfully as any lawyer could have done — to the great horror of the Judges and the chagrin of the majority of the Council of State. The Judges were so astonished at the verdict of the jury that they had to repeat their question before they would believe their ears, but the public which crowded the judgment hall, on the announcement of the verdict, broke out into cheers so loud and long as, according to the unanimous testimony of contemporary reporters, had never before been heard in the Guildhall. The cheering and waving of caps continued for over half an hour, while the Judges sat, turning white and red in turns, and spread thence to the masses in London and the suburbs. At night bonfires were lighted, and even during the following days the event was the occasion of joyful demonstrations.
</blockquote>
 
By the late 17th century, the court's ability to punish juries was removed in [[Bushell's Case]]<ref name = "Bushell's Case">[http://www.constitution.org/trials/bushell/bushell.htm Bushell's Case trial report].</ref> involving a juror on the case against [[William Penn]].
 
In [[1670]], [[William Penn]] was arrested for illegally preaching a [[Quaker]] sermon. Despite the fact that the judge demanded a guilty verdict and that preaching the sermon was illegal, the jury in that case acquitted Penn and was subsequently imprisoned, fined, and kept for three days without food or water as a result. Four jurors refused to pay the fine, and one, Edward Bushell, obtained a [[writ of habeas corpus]]. Chief Justice Vaughn, sitting on the highest court in England, discharged the writ, released them, and called the power to punish a jury "absurd". <ref> Simon Stern, "Between Local Knowledge and National Politics: Debating Rationales for Jury Nullification after Bushell’s Case," Yale Law Journal 111 (2002): 1815-48. </ref>
Well, I checked out portugese, esperanto and swedish as well. I don't officially know those langauges so I'm not going to try to actually translate them. :-P
 
I do notice that the current *english* article is mostly about say the face of socialism: who did it, who says what it is or what it isn't etc. It doesn't actually mention terms like ''collectivism'', ''solidarity'' or ''class struggle'', which are important to the underlying philosphy which is common to all socialists by the look of it.
 
Heh, and I'm not even a socialist, I think I'm getting the hang of NPOV here. :-)
 
In [[1681]], a [[grand jury]] refused to [[Indictment|indict]] the [[Anthony Ashley-Cooper, 1st Earl of Shaftesbury|Earl of Shaftesbury]]. Then in [[1688]], a jury acquitted the [[Archbishop of Canterbury]] and six other [[Anglican]] bishops of [[seditious libel]].
Hmmm, how about saying what socialism *is* and skipping what it isn't. It might make for a somewhat shorter article than the current one (socialism isn't nazism, socialism isn't communism, socialism isn't the kitchen sink... etc...)
[[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 08:29, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
Juries continued, even in non-criminal cases, to act in defiance of the crown. In [[1763]] and in [[1765]], juries awarded £4,000 and £300 to [[John Wilkes]] and John Entwick, respectively, in separate suits for [[trespass]] against the crown's messengers. In both cases, messengers were sent by Lord Halifax to seize allegedly [[libel|libelous]] papers.
:Define what socialism is... I like that idea and I'm also not a socialist. We could resort to some noted authorities on the subject instead of simply people's POV. Gasp, we could even bring in what some socialist thinkers have said on the subject. My head is beginning to swim with the possibilities. I'd better go. Yours in hope. [[User:Sunray|Sunray]] 19:27, 2004 Mar 30 (UTC)
 
In [[Scotland]] Jury Nullification had a profound effect bringing in (or as others believed reviving) the verdict of "[[not proven|not proven]]". It was in [[1728]] that one [[Carnegie of Finhaven]] accidentally killed the Scottish [[Charles Lyon, 6th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne|Earl of Strathmore]]. As the defendant had undoubtedly killed the Earl, the law (as it stood) required the jury merely to look at the facts and pass a verdict of "proven" or "[[not proven]]" depending on whether they believed the facts proved the defendant had killed the Earl. However if the jury brought in a "proven" verdict they would in effect cause this innocent man to die. To avert this injustice, the jury decided to assert what it believed to be their "ancient right" to judge the whole case and not just the facts and brought in the verdict of "not guilty" which remains in Scotland to this day. Over time however, juries have tended to favour the "not guilty" verdict over the "not proven" and with this the interpretation has changed {{Fact|date=July 2007}}. Now the "not guilty" verdict has become the normal verdict when a jury is convinced of innocence and the "not proven" verdict is only used when the jury is not certain of innocence or guilt.
I wanted to compliment you all on the fine discourse. I havn't much to ad other than to praise the civility and focus on other wiki's. Quality articles are nothing exclusive to the english wiki, and I am glad you appreciate that. Maybe we'll soon have a entry on socialism good enough for me to know what the word means? ;) Here's hoping! p.s. Please put in that part from the dutch wiki about the use of the word in the US, its quite an apt summary ;) [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 03:20, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
==Nullification in the United States==
==What socialism is (or isn't)==
[[John Peter Zenger]], a printer in the English colony of New York, was tried for [[seditious libel]] in [[1734]] for publishing a newspaper critical of the governor. The jury acquitted Zenger despite the judge's instructions; this is perhaps the most famous early instance of jury nullification in the colonies that became the United States.
"What socialism is (or isn't)": the problem, and we can't make it go away, is that there is no consensus agreement on exactly who is, or is not, a socialist. What this article can try to do is to sketch the complex territory, point out the mountains, give reasonable citations and attributions as to who says what, and (what is, perhaps, missing now) try to give a flavor of what the various types of socialism have in common. However, we are not in a position to successfully "define" a term that is used differently by different people. This is exactly analogous to Wittgenstein's discussion of the word "game" in the ''Philosophical Investigations'': there is simply not one definition that embraces baseball, chess, and peek-a-boo. There is a common thread, it can be drawn, but simple explanations are inherently going to be false. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 03:38, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
The use of the jury to act as a protection of last resort was espoused by many influential people surrounding the framing of the [[U.S. Constitution]]. For example, [[John Adams]] said of jurors: "It is not only his right but also his duty… to find the verdict according to his own best understanding, judgment, and conscience, though in direct opposition to the direction of the court."
:As far as I can tell, the concensus is that socialism is ment ot be good for poor people, at least in theory. The improvement of the conditions of the lower class (at least in theory/propaganda, what-have-you) are common thruout all versions of socialisms, as far as I can tell. Egalitarianism and a removal of private ownership to one extent or another may or may not be included, that is much more debateable. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 21:50, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
First Chief Justice of the US [[John Jay]] wrote: "It is presumed, that juries are the best judges of facts; it is, on the other hand, presumed that courts are the best judges of law. But still both objects are within your power of decision… you [juries] have a '''right''' to take it upon yourselves to judge of both, and to determine the law as well as the fact in controversy".
:: Those are certainly ''necessary'' conditions for a worldview to be called socialist, but certainly they are not sufficient. Christian charity is not socialism. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 01:30, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
It was over time that judicial and legal opinion slowly changed to consider jury nullification only a power and not a right of juries, as judges and prosecutors wanted stricter enforcement of laws that juries nullified. This shift stemmed from the 18th century conflict between two factions of English jurists, the first led by [[Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden|Lord Camden]], which was originally prevalent in what became the United States, and the second led by [[William Murray, 1st Earl of Mansfield and Mansfield|Lord Mansfield]]. The position of the latter was called "Mansfieldism" by Jefferson<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/tj/ltr/1826/ltr_18260217_madison.htm Letter to James Madison, February 17, 1826], complaining of Mansfieldism</ref> and the shift has been called "Mansfieldization".<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/lrev/jdr/mansfield_recon.htm Mansfieldism Reconsidered], by Jon Roland</ref>
::: Sure. ''Collectivism'', ''solidarity'' , and ''class struggle'' appear to be the defining common thread in socialism. RTFIW (Read The Friendly InterWiki) :-) [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 11:02, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
===Nullification in practice===
Nullification has a mixed history in the United States. Jury nullification appeared in the pre-Civil War era when juries occasionally refused to convict for violations of the [[Fugitive Slave Act]]. However, during the Civil Rights era, all-white juries were known to refuse to convict white defendants for the murder of African-Americans.<ref name = "Cato">[http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v21n1/jury.html Cato].</ref> During [[Prohibition]], juries often nullified alcohol control laws,<ref name = "UMKC">[http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html UMKC].</ref> possibly as often as 60% of the time.<ref name = "FIJA">[http://www.fija.org/conrad_on_jury_duty.htm Conrad on Jury Duty].</ref> This resistance is considered to have contributed to the adoption of the [[Twenty-first Amendment to the United States Constitution|Twenty-first amendment]] repealing the [[Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution|Eighteenth amendment]] which established [[Prohibition]].
 
In the 21st century, many discussions of jury nullification center around drug laws that some consider unjust either in principle or because they are seen to discriminate against African-Americans. A jury nullification advocacy group estimates that 3–4% of all jury trials involve nullification,<ref name = "FIJA" /> and a recent rise in [[hung jury|hung juries]] (from an average of 5% to nearly 20% in recent years) is considered additional evidence that juries have begun to consider the validity or fairness of the laws themselves.<ref name = "WashPost">[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/jury080299.htm Washington Post].</ref>
----
== controversial ==
 
In criminal cases, jury nullification arguments sometimes focus on the precise language of the [[jury instruction]] on the [[burden of proof]]. Many jury instructions on the issue of the burden of proof invite nullification arguments. According to these instructions juries ''must'' find the defendant not guilty if the case has not been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Conversely the jury ''should'' find the defendant guilty if the case has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The permissive language "should" arguably allows juries to consider nullification arguments.
I found there's a controversial tag and added it to 3 articles that seemed worthy of it. Thanks to the english wiki attracting usaians, there's some controversy between them and other folks who have very different ideas of socialism than they do! :-)
 
===Court rulings===
Hmm, actually the current article really and truely sucks, since it isn't being very [[sophist]]icated as far as the divide-and-conquer <s>trick</s> tactic is concerned. It'd be a lot more coherent if different socialist kinds were split into different headings or even different articles entirely.
In recent years, judges seem to like jury nullification less and less. While unable to take away the power of nullification, they have done much to prevent its use.
* modern applications of socialist thought should be upfront, since that's what most people will expect in an encyclopedia.
* the ussr was important during the 20th century so should get prominent mention also.
 
The first major decision in this line was ''Games v. Stiles ex dem Dunn'', 39 U.S. 322 (1840),<ref>[http://www.constitution.org/ussc/039-322.htm Games v. Stiles ex dem Dunn]</ref> which held that the bench could override the verdict of the jury on a point of law.
Socialism has a common base , which apparently can be divided very roughly into the bolshewik-like and menshewik-like lines of thought. That's the first split into 3 parts you can make right there. Can others help figure out how to divide and conquer further? [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 13:03, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
The [[1895]] decision in ''[[Sparf v. U.S.]]'' written by Justice [[John Marshall Harlan]] held that a trial judge has no responsibility to inform the jury of the right to nullify laws. It was a 5-4 decision. This decision, often cited, has led to a common practice by [[United States]] judges to penalize anyone who attempts to present legal argument to jurors and to declare a mistrial if such argument has been presented to them. Jurors are likely to be struck from the panel during [[voir dire]] if they reveal awareness of the concept of jury nullification.<ref>"...the court can also attempt to prevent such an occurrence of juror nullification by (1) informing prospective jurors at the outset that jurors have no authority to disregard the law and (2) obtaining their assurance that they will not do so if chosen to serve on the jury." ''People v. Estrada'', 06 S.O.S. 3702 (2006).</ref>
"Menshevism" is already pretty radical. I'd say the first split would be between Marxist socialism and early utopian socialism. The latter basically died out. Then you'd have a split within Marxism between "orthodox" Marxism which continued to advocate the revolution, and "revisionist" socialism, which advocated change through reformism, and is the ancestor of present-day social democracy. Within "Orthodox" Marxism, you'd have a split between Menshevism (Or Independency, in Germany - that is to say, genuine orthodox Marxism) and Bolshevism (or Spartacism, in Germany, or Marxism-Leninism). The latter has frequently split further, the former has mostly disappeared, I think. You also have academic Marxism, which is generally fairly idiosyncratic, and doesn't necessarily fit in with any of the various mass socialist movements. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 20:44, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
A [[1969]] [[Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals|Fourth Circuit]] decision, ''[[U.S. v. Moylan]]'', affirmed the right of jury nullification, but also upheld the power of the court to refuse to permit an instruction to the jury to this effect.
== Very unhappy with recent edits by 195.92.168.165 ==
195.92.168.165 recently made a set of edits, supposedly for NPOV, which I think make mush out of the article. However, since nearly all of the edits are in my writing and claim to be for NPOV, I am not the appropriate person to revert them. Someone independent, please review and make a decision! -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 18:04, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
<blockquote>
:Hmm...I'm not sure. I think the anon is right that the current article has some mildly POV phrasing. But the anon's changes have generally been for the worse. What do others think? [[User:John Kenney|john]] 18:23, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We recognize, as appellants urge, the undisputed power of the jury to acquit, even if its verdict is contrary to the law as given by the judge, and contrary to the evidence. This is a power that must exist as long as we adhere to the general verdict in criminal cases, for the courts cannot search the minds of the jurors to find the basis upon which they judge. If the jury feels that the law under which the defendant is accused, is unjust, or that exigent circumstances justified the actions of the accused, or for any reason which appeals to their logic or passion, the jury has the power to acquit, and the courts must abide by that decision. ''U.S. vs Moylan'', 417 F 2d 1002, 1006 (1969).[http://www.askthelawguy.info/images/moylan.pdf]
</blockquote>
 
Nevertheless, in upholding the refusal to permit the jury to be so instructed, the Court held that:
::I'd say they were sound edits, but that there is much, much more to be done. I personally, and readers at large of course, need this to be a brilliant article, capable of allowing me, as an american ;) to understand what the heck socialism is anyway. Is it the traquil utopia's of sweden and soc dem europe, or the death camps of stalin and pol pot, or the dubious and controvercialy embargo'ed cuba? If it is ALL of these, what the heck brings it all together??? All I know is the article needs alot more work. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 18:43, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
<blockquote>
:::It certainly is all of these, just like capitalism is both the vibrant cities of America and the sweatshops of East Asia. Or for that matter, the vibrant cities of East Asia and the sweatshops of (South-of-the-Border) America. Anyway, I'm going to stay out of making any significant edits in this article for a while, although I will stay active in the talk page: right now the article has more content from me than from any one other person and since this appears to be a POV dispute, I should probably try to stay at arm's length. But would someone without too much of an axe to grind please have at 195.92.168.165's material, which, again, seems to me to be absolutely mushy? -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 20:01, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
…by clearly stating to the jury that they may disregard the law, telling them that they may decide according to their prejudices or consciences (for there is no check to insure that the judgment is based upon conscience rather than prejudice), we would indeed be negating the rule of law in favor of the rule of lawlessness. This should not be allowed. ''Id.''
</blockquote>
 
In [[1972]], in ''[[United States v. Dougherty]]'', [[case citation|473 F.2d 1113]], the [[United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit]] issued a ruling similar to ''Moylan'' that affirmed the ''de facto'' power of a jury to nullify the law but upheld the denial of the defense's chance to instruct the jury about the power to nullify. However, in ''Dougherty'' the then-chief judge [[David L. Bazelon]] authored a dissenting in part opinion, arguing that the jury should be instructed about their power to render the verdict according to their conscience if the law was unjust. He wrote that refusal to allow the jury to be instructed constitutes a "deliberate lack of candor".<ref> [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/juryseminar/USvDougherty1972.html U.S. v Dougherty] </ref>
And another new edit that strikes me as silly; new part is bolded: "In the U.S., the federal government continues to run the post office, many local governments own power companies and other utilities, '''plus the aerospace and military-industrial complex'''..." I am unaware of U.S. local governments owning the aerospace and military-industrial complex. (I did take the liberty of correcting the same person's misspelling of Keynes's middle name, figured that should be uncontroversial!). -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 20:25, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
In [[1988]], in ''U.S. v. Krzyske'', the jury asked the judge about jury nullification. The judge responded "There is no such thing as valid jury nullification." The jury convicted the defendant, and the judge's answer was upheld on appeal.
: Looks like TDC promptly reverted it. TDC: isn't it nice to know that there are people out there so crazy that you & I can both agree that they are wrong? -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 20:36, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
In [[1997]], in ''U.S. v. Thomas''<ref>[http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=2nd&navby=case&no=951337 U.S. v. Thomas No. 95-1337 (2nd Cir. 5-20-97).]</ref>, the Second Circuit ruled that jurors can be removed if there is evidence that they intend to nullify the law, under Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 23(b).
::HA! Good one. [[User:TDC|TDC]] 20:41, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
<blockquote>
We categorically reject the idea that, in a society committed to the rule of law, jury nullification is desirable or that courts may permit it to occur when it is within their authority to prevent. Accordingly, we conclude that a juror who intends to nullify the applicable law is no less subject to dismissal than is a juror who disregards the court's instructions due to an event or relationship that renders him biased or otherwise unable to render a fair and impartial verdict.
</blockquote>
 
In [[2001]], a California Supreme Court ruling on a case involving [[statutory rape]] led to a new jury instruction that requires jurors to inform the judge whenever a fellow panelist appears to be deciding a case based on his or her dislike of a law.<ref name = "SMC">{{cite news|url=http://homepage.smc.edu/sindell_steven/AJ3%20Folder/Currentevents/aj3.jury.nullific.html|title=Justices Say Jurors May Not Vote Conscience|work=[[SMC]]|date=2001-05-08|accessdate=2006-12-17}}</ref> However, the ruling could not overturn the practice of jury nullification itself because of double jeopardy: a defendant who has been acquitted of a charge cannot be charged a second time with it, even if the court later learns jury nullification played a role in the verdict.
I was the one who added the part about the military industrial complex.
I can't remember what handle i used to use on here, and i forgot how to automatically sign; its been a while since I have played on the wiki. In the past I have added things to this page that other co-editors have appreciated, so I was a little surprised at first when I logged on tonight to see that the part I added was silly, "plus the aerospace and military-industrial complex". I think that part needs to be there, and I'll now explain why, but in doing so I'll also say that in re-reading the the paragraph on the whole, I understood and agreed with it being removed. The point of this paragraph, as I read it, is that even in countries that people consider capitalist, there are aspects of their economic activity which some people consider socialist or socialistic.
One of these aspects is state ownership. My reading of socialist theory is that state ownership is only one of several aspects which could be considered socialist, and that another for instance is state planning. It is here with the state planning that I added the part about the military industrial complex. What is the relationship between state planning and state ownership? State ownership would obviously seem to include and imply state planning (primarily here the allotment of budget/resources/debt). But it is also entirely true that the state planning mechanism works just the same insofar as economic life is concerned regardless of whether or not the state owns the means of production in question (in this case aerospace and military) or if it simply supplies the capital and directs the (private) firm's economic life in that way. Conversely, it is also true that the state can own the economy on the whole, but allow considerable individual autonomy in terms of supply and price setting to the individual managers at each enterprise or firm, the competition mechanism. This was the case in the economic side of Kruschev's de-Stalinization program in the USSR; state ownership was a legal-political matter here, but the managers of the enterprises played the economic and social role that a capitalist would, with the state acting as the bank or lending institution, and thus the state can mimic the effects of competition. The point of state ownership or state planning is not based upon any ideological or moral motives as far as the economist is concerned, but rather on the need for economies of increasing scale to pump a certain knowable, planned, and solvent flow of liquid capital into the economy in order to alleviate the chaotic or anarchic effects of laizzes-faire "hands off" economic policy typical of 19th and early 20th century forms of capitalism, which both Marx and Keynes have stated is the source of the boom-bust cycle of growth and depression. Ownership, a property and thus legal question, only has secondary or super-structural effects on econonic mechanisms of control like planning versus markets (competion). Or if one would reject this analysis, one could simply say that state ownership of the means of production effectually constitutes the private property of the ruling clique that runs and thus owns the government. In any case, I agree most of my addition was incorrect because the paragraph did not yet explain that state planning is an economically "socialist" mechanism that can take the form of state ownership but dosen't necessarily have to. This can also be, though not limited to, something understood within the context of keynes, even though I couldn't spell his middle name I am quite familiar with keynes none the less. One of the contradictions (see dialectics in the marx entry) of the capitalist economy according to socialists is the "anarchy of production", i.e, the boom-bust cycle. Keynes later reitereated this nearly a hundred years later, and that is the Marx-Keynes connection. With this said, I will wait another day or so to make the necessary changes to the entry, and if anyone contests what I have done then, I know they will say something about it here! Capone 21 april 2004
 
Although the Supreme Court has not directly confronted the issue recently, dicta in several opinions by Justice [[Antonin Scalia]] seems to imply a strong belief in the importance of the jury, in which the potential for nullification might be thought implicit; juries, Scalia has argued, are "the spinal column of American democracy," ''[[Neder v. United States]]'', "function as circuitbreaker[s] in the State’s machinery of justice," ''[[Blakely v. Washington]],'' and while trial by jury "has never been efficient… it has always been free," ''[[Apprendi v. New Jersey]]''.
:The reason it was silly was because you were saying that local government owned the military-industrial complex. That is not, of course, the case. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 05:05, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
===Advocacy groups===
Um yeah thanks John, if you read the post you'll find that I said I understood why it was taken out. But now you'll see it makes sense when I put it back in, yeah? Capone 22 april 2004
Some advocacy groups and websites such as the:
* [[Fully Informed Jury Association]]
* [http://www.levellers.org/jrp The Jury Rights Project]
* [http://www.jurypower.org The Jury Education Committee ]
argue that private parties in cases where the government is the opponent have the right to have juries be instructed that they have the right and duty to render a verdict contrary to legal positions they believe to be unjust or unconstitutional. These and other organizations contact citizens directly and lobby for legal reforms regarding instructions given to jurors.
* [http://www.constitution.org/jury/pj/pj-us.htm Constitution Society] Presents historical documentation that supports the proposition that to be a lawful jury trial, all issues of law must be argued in the presence of the jury, with the exception of those that cannot be argued without revealing evidence that is properly excluded.
 
===Opponents===
:Alright, I'll admit to not having read all of your novel length disquisition, so I suppose I missed that part. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 23:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 
A notable opponent of jury nullification is former judge and unsuccessful Supreme Court nominee [[Robert Bork]]. In an essay he wrote jury nullification is a "pernicious practice".<ref> [http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9906/articles/bork.html Thomas More for Our Season] Robert H. Bork </ref>
So I made that part clear with my additions, and the information now then seems to logically flow. Also, in regards to the history of socialism, while the term socialism seems to date back to the beginning of the 19th century, the economic and ideological roots date at least as far back as the Enlightenment in the 18th century. A direct line follows even before if you look at the Diggers and Levellers around the English Civil War in the mid 1600's, coming to support the Republic of England, the New Model Army and Cromwell. In the Enlightenment, 80 or so years after the short lived Republic of England, (particularly the French Enlightenment as opposed to the more moderately tempered English Enlightenment), the socialist ideas of liberty, franternity, and egalitarianism were expressed in the writings of Condercet, Voltaire, Rousseau, Diderot, Mably, Morrelly and the like. This was, needless to say, quite a while before the Utopian Socialists like Robert Owen, Saint-Simon, and Fourier. The French Enlightenment was the ideological product of the 17th and 18th century struggle against absolutist, aristocratic, feudal, and oligarchical establishment embodied by figures like Louis XVI. In turn the French Revolution effected the Enlightenment, and changed from being the ideas of a small group of intellectuals who were not interested in how they were regarded by officialdom, to the ideology of masses of France, in particular the French artisan bourgeoisie and artisan proletariat.
The radical program of the Jacobins and Robespierre was not radical enough for the maximalist program of the Conspiracy of Equals. The CoE, led by Grachus Babeuf, organized around the program of complete expropriation of the bourgeoisie as a class. Babeuf had been a Jacobin militant, but he and his faction of the most radical of the sans-coulliotes splintered to form the CoE. The radical program of the CoE can be juxtaposed to the comparatively moderate program of the Jacobins who only expropriated aristacratic/noble property while allowing for and basing its support in the property owning city bourgeoisie, though placing tight controls on the profit margins of the bourgeois through the laws of the maximum. If the Jacobin's program can be compared to either the corporatist, social-democratic, or moderate socialist parties of today, then Babeuf on the CoE can be compared to the radical socialists or communists of today. In defending the principles of communism, Babeuf extensively cited and relied upon Rousseau, Mably, and Morrelly. At Babeuf's execution at the hands of Robespierre's Jacobins, Babeuf is quoted as saying, "The masses can no longer find a way to go on living; they see that they possess nothing and that they suffer under the harsh and flinty oppression of a greedy ruling class. The hour strikes for great and memorable revolutionary events, already forseen in the writings of the times, when a general overthrow of the system of private property is inevitable, when the revolt of the poor against the rich becomes a necessity that can no longer be postponed", (Babeuf's statement at his execution, 1796). Babeuf considered Robespierre a betrayer of the communist principles of earlier Jacobinism, arguing that the laws of the maximim still allowed for the bourgeoisie to exist and exploit others. After Babeuf's death, however, the organization and movement continued to develop and find new leadership in people Babeuf's long time Jacobin comrades Buonarroti and Blanqui. Buonarotti and Blanqui involved Karl Schapper, and Karl Schapper was the leading figure of the League of the Just, which was based upon Babeuf and Blanqui's philosophies and organizational models. Karl Marx later joined the League of the Just, and would then soon after be called the Communist League.
Capone 22 4 04
 
==Nullification in Canada==
== socialism with Chinese characteristics ==
Although very rare, nullification does occur in Canada, however the Crown (prosecution) has a broader power to appeal rulings than in the US. So while a jury ''may'' ignore a judge's direction, Canadian law allows the prosecution to appeal from an acquittal (see also [[Double jeopardy]]). The often referenced case of jury nullification being appealed all the way to the country's highest court in Canada is the 1988 Supreme Court case, ''[[R. v. Morgentaler]], 1988 SCR 30'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/1988/1988rcs1-30/1988rcs1-30.html].
In addition, the Supreme Court of Canada, in a more recent decision ''R. v. Krieger 2006 SCC 47'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2006/2006scc47/2006scc47.html], confirmed that juries in Canada have the power to refuse to apply the law when their consciences require that they do so. The issue was also touched upon in ''R. v. Latimer, 2001 SCC 1'' [http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2001/2001scc1/2001scc1.html], where "The trial did not become unfair simply because the trial judge undermined the jury’s de facto power to nullify. In most if not all cases, jury nullification will not be a valid factor in analyzing trial fairness for the accused. Guarding against jury nullification is a desirable and legitimate exercise for a trial judge; in fact a judge is required to take steps to ensure that the jury will apply the law properly."
 
==Nullification in the UK==
I made some changes to take into account [[socialism with Chinese characteristics]]. First of all its not true that
In 1982, during the [[Falklands War]], the British Navy sunk an Argentine Cruiser – the “[[ARA General Belgrano]]”. A government employee (civil servant) named [[Clive Ponting]] leaked two government documents concerning the sinking of the cruiser to the press, and was subsequently charged with breaching the [[Official Secrets Act]]. The judge in the case directed the jury to convict Ponting as he had clearly broken the Official Secrets Act by leaking official information about the sinking of the Belgrano during the Falklands War. His main defence, that it was in the public interest that this information be made available, was not a defence at all in law, but the jury nevertheless acquitted him, much to the consternation of the Government. He had argued that he had acted out of 'his duty to the interests of the state'; the judge had argued that [[civil servants]] owed their duty to the government.
all socialisms believe that the economy is run for the benefit of a small elite. The Chinese government certainly doesn't official state that this is true of the Chinese economy. Also, its also not the case that all socialisms favor cooperation over competition, again this is not the case for China.
 
==Nullification in popular fiction==
[[User:Roadrunner|Roadrunner]] 08:32, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
On the American [[legal drama]] ''[[Law & Order]]'', in the eighth season episode "Nullification," the members of a [[Christian Patriot]] [[Militia_%28United_States%29#Modern_Private_Militia_organizations|militia]] are indicted for [[murder]] and [[robbery|armed robbery]] for their role in the attempted [[hijacking]] of an [[armored car]]. At trial, the leader of the militia ([[Denis O'Hare]]), who represents the group ''[[pro se]]'', argues that they are fighting a [[war]] against the illegitimate government of the United States, and that therefore the [[defendant]]s are [[prisoner of war|prisoners of war]] unlawfully detained in violation of the [[Geneva Conventions]]. In his [[testimony]], and later in his [[closing argument]], he explicitly argues in favor of jury nullification in the case as a blow against the "[[New World Order (conspiracy)|New World Order]]" and government tyranny. Although the prosecution manages to disqualify and replace two jurors who express sympathy with the militia cause, the trial ends in a [[hung jury]], as one or more jurors agree with the argument in favor of nullification.
 
Although that is the only time that ''Law & Order'' specifically addresses the issue of jury nullification, it has occurred in other episodes. In the eighth season episode "Burden," for example, a jury, deprived of evidence demonstrating the work of a [[serial killer]], votes to acquit an [[narcissism|egomaniacal]] [[physician]] ([[John Hickock]]) who claims that the death of a young boy in a [[persistent vegetative state]] was an act of [[euthanasia]]. Later, in the eleventh season episode "Standoff," a jury acquits a [[corrections officer]] ([[Matt Mulhern]]) who hired a [[contract killing|contract killer]] to eliminate his fiancee's [[rape|rapist]].
1.) I think these changes have relevant information, but now the article reads as an article about the chinese exceptions to these frameworks we are laying out here. I think the changes need to be better assimilated into the article because its now discontinuous and the focus on chinese exceptionalism runs through it. Certainly this isn't an article about chinese socialisms vs. all other socialisms. A billion and a half people live in a country whose government party is the communist party and they claim to be socialist, so obviously this needs more treatment than the article had before the changes, but now after these changes it seems like, well, there is too much specificity about where chinese socialism deviates from other socialisms.
 
On the legal drama ''[[The Practice]]'', which follows criminal trials from the [[Defense (legal)|defense attorney]]'s perspective, the characters use jury nullification on a fairly regular basis, especially when they defend clients accused of so-called [[victimless crime]]s such as [[prostitution]], [[bookmaking]], or [[drug possession]]. The strategy usually used in such situations, known as "This Is America" to its practitioners, was essentially an appeal to [[patriotism]].
2.) I think these specificities are POV or careless, since Roadrunner clearly hasn't accounted for the social democratic position, which is *as socialist* as it claims to be, and that position ALSO says that private ownership in collusion or competition with the public sector can = socialism.
 
During the first season of the show, a multi-episode [[story arc]] concerns the defense of a grieving father ([[Jack Laufer]]) who murdered his daughter's recently-[[acquittal|acquitted]] killer ([[Greg Wrangler]]). Although the official defense is [[diminished responsibility]], it amounts to a pitch for jury nullification, given overwhelming evidence of [[premeditation]]. After a prosecution spanning four episodes, the defendant is acquitted on all charges.
3.) Roadrunner didn't glean from the article that when socialists say that "the government or the economy is run in the interests of the rich or the few" - they aren't talking about how things OUGHT to be, they aren't talking about SOCIALISM, they are talking about CAPITALISM. In other words, this isn't a socialist statement about a future or present socialist society.
Is this article about socialism or chinese revisionism?
-Capone 5-6-04
 
==See also==
: I've tried to better integrate Roadrunner's material. I do think it is important that the Chinese case be discussed, but equally important that it not come to dominate the article. I believe I have retained all of Roadrunner's substantive points, while reducing the volume of words and improving the flow. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 18:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
* [[Death-qualified jury]]
* [[Jury duty]]
* [[Laura Kriho]]
* [[Ed Rosenthal]]
* [[Josephine Terranova]]
* [[Peter Wright]]
* [[John Peter Zenger]]
* ''[[Citizens Rule Book]]''
 
== References ==
==Make this a disambig page instead?==
Eduard Bernstein, ''Sozialismus und Demokratie in der grossen englischen Revolution'' (1895); trans. H.J.Stenning (1963, NYC) as ''Cromwell and Communism: Socialism and Democracy in the Great English Revolution'', Library of Congress 63-18392.
 
<references/>
Hmm, since different people simply have different ideas about even the definition of socialism, this page is going to be controversial forever. Perhaps it'd be wiser to simply have links to the different meanings of socialism used in different parts of the world. That way we'd have proper NPOV articles on each version, rather than the total definition mess we have now. [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 09:33, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 
==External links==
:Strongly opposed. The fact that a topic is complicated doesn't mean it's incoherent. Virtually all ideologies/systems/etc. considered to be socialist share common roots and much common history. The fact that they have diverged makes the topic very complicated, but that complexity needs explication somewhere, and this is where. Yes, all of those additional, more circumscribed articles should also exist. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 19:51, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
* [http://www.marx.org/reference/archive/bernstein/works/1895/cromwell/index.htm ''"Cromwell and Communism"'' aka ''Socialism and Democracy in the Great English Revolution'']
* [http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/zenger/nullification.html ''Jury Nullification'' by Doug Linder]
* [http://www.greenmac.com/eagle/ISSUES/ISSUE23-9/07JuryNullification.html ''Jury Nullification: Why you should know what it is'' by Russ Emal]
* [http://www.caught.net/juror.htm ''Juror's Handbook - A Citizen's Guide to Jury Duty'' by the American Jury Institute]
* [http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=38730&pageno=1 ''Essay on the Trial by Jury''] by [[Lysander Spooner]]
* [http://www.fija.org ''FIJA''] - Fully Informed Jury Association
 
[[Category:Court systems]]
==Opposite ideologies==
[[Category:Criminal law]]
[[User:Kim Bruning]] recently changed (in =Related articles=) The "inversive" of socialism to "[[laissez-faire capitalism]]," removing "[[individualism]]." I don't have a specific opinion whether one of these are more accurate than the other, but this notion of an "inversive" strikes me as problematic. It's all a matter of what is inverted. Individualism has an arguably opposite philosophical ideal. Laissez-faire capitalism is an arguably opposite economic system, but then [[aristocracy]] or [[feudalism]] is an arguably opposite social system. Maybe mention all four as "inversives"? Not a big deal, just found it interesting how much of this is inevitably a bit POV. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 20:00, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 
[[he:ביטול על ידי מושבעים]]
: Well, hmm, individualism and collectivism are opposites, and capitalism and socialism are opposites. Someone had simply crossed over their opposites. :-)
: Aristocracy and feudalism are not so much opposite to socialism as they are orthogonal to it. (See among others: [[Belgium]], [[United Kingdom]], [[Netherlands]], which still have some holdovers from [[aristocracy]], [[feudalism]] and [[monarchy]], but also have [[social democracy|social democratic]] policies.)
: [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 21:07, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 
Applied Socialism is not opposite of capitalism by any stretch. The form of socialism which might be an opposite of capitalism would be an imagined utopia, certainly not anything which has legitamately occured. Also, when I think of socialism I think of the USSR or China, which arn't really all that different from feudalism at all. Additionally, while aristocrats were killed as a part of revoloutionary socialism, they were replaced by a new communist party aristocracy, w the same nepotism and class distinctions. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 22:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)
 
: I find myself agreeing with Sam. (OK, except for his use of the phrase "applied socialism." But if we substitute "state communism"...) Mark this on your calendar. But again, no big. This is just a matter of a listing in the "see also" section and is of little consequence. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 02:05, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
:: Hmm, well I live in a social democracy, and this country has close economic ties to several other social democracies (and democratic socialist states if you really want to split hairs).
::Very very rough rule of thumb: If you pay no taxes at all, you have laissez-fair capitalism. If you pay 100% taxes you have pure socialism. Usually folks around these parts pay between 30%-60% taxes (depending on nation and income), so in practice most countries are somewhere inbetween the 2 styles. One is white, the other is black, no doubt about that I think. In practice however, people actually ''implement'' some shade of grey. (Darn us europeans, eh? ;-) ). [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 07:48, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
:::Where do you live? And where has anyone paid 100% taxes? [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 07:55, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
:::: Netherlands. And where has anyone paid 0% taxes? ;-) [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 08:12, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
100% tax rate, or 100% marginal rate? At any rate, tax rates have nothing to do with socialism. One could envision an anarcho-socialist state with no taxes, or some sort of monarchical superstate with extremely high taxes entirely devoted to, say, war-making. [[User:John Kenney|john]] 08:21, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
: There you go ruining a perfectly good rule of thumb. I wasn't claiming it would work outside of the western world or anything. Basically the rule works because taxes are basically [[collectivist]] in nature. So the higher the taxes, the more collectivist the government is going to be. Since socialism is a form of collectivism, the rule will work out fairly well in countries that combine capitalism and socialism. Try it out for say hmm, USA, UK, Netherlands, Sweden. Average tax rates will ''tend'' be higher in a country where the government ideology is more socialist leaning, and lower in a country where the ideology is more capitalist leaning. Remember it's only a rough rule of thumb though! [[User:Kim Bruning|Kim Bruning]] 08:28, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
==Morrelly==
Who is "Morrelly" (one of the Enlightenment thinkers mentioned by anonymous contributor, presumably Capone)? Never heard of him. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 07:13, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
Not sure why my last post here last night didn't show on here today. Information on Morrelly will come soon. Sorry, thanks.
Capone
 
Will the bugles play the Last Post in chorus? -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 23:37, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
Um, not sure what you think you mean there Jmabel, but my highly adapted senses are suggesting to me the slightest bit of sarcasm - lol - anyhow, I think the recent edits from everyone have been pretty good. I didn't mean last as in final, but as in most recent. I wanted to respond earlier on Morrelly and will still have to later. Something's up with my browser here, but I think this article on Sociaism is better than ones in other languages on wiki, and is easily better than what you'd find in an encyclopedia sitting on your shelf. I think Wiki is a success.
Capone 10 May 2004 5:24
 
==Socialist elements in Nazism==
There were significant socialist elements within the Nazi program, or at least leveling tendencies; what was pernicious is that the benefits were extended only to ethnic Germans. Nazis were quite generous in their dealing with disadvantaged Germans. Even in the German army there was a marked difference in the way enlisted soldiers were treated as compared to the way they were treated during World War I. The program was to create a just society for ethnic Germans provided they were healthy, straight and not infected by Marxism. [[User:Fred Bauder|Fred Bauder]] 23:23, May 10, 2004 (UTC)
 
:'''Here here!''' *''vigorously bangs shoe upon table top''* [[User:Sam Spade|Sam]] [[User talk:Sam Spade|'''Spade''']] 23:43, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
 
There is a discussion on this on archive number three. It's interesting information, but what does it have to say to us about Socialism that isn't already there? What is Spaed so excited about, that Nazis wanted to make an uninfected master race or simply that Fred is pointing this out? Please clarify?
Capone 10 May 2004 5:31pm