Talk:Precautionary principle and The Raconteurs: Difference between pages

Revision as of 02:20, 4 January 2006

Revision as of 15:23, 22 July 2007

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{{Infobox musical artist

{{Talkheader}}

| Name = The Raconteurs

| Img = JackWhitebySteveHopson.jpg

| Img_capt = Jack White in concert with The Raconteurs at the [[Austin City Limits Music Festival]], 2006

| Background = group_or_band

| Origin = {{flagicon|United States}} [[United States]]

| Genre = [[Indie rock]]<br>[[Alternative rock]]<br>[[Blues Rock]]<br>[[Hard Rock]]

| Years_active = [[2005]]&ndash;present

| Label = [[Third Man Records]]<br />{{flagicon|UK}} [[XL Recordings]]<br />{{flagicon|USA}} [[V2 Records]]

| URL = [http://www.theraconteurs.com/ www.theraconteurs.com]

| Current_members = [[Brendan Benson]]<br />[[Patrick Keeler]]<br />[[Jack Lawrence (bassist)|Jack Lawrence]]<br />[[Jack White (musician)|Jack White]]

| Past_members =

}}

'''The Raconteurs''', also known as '''The Saboteurs''' in [[Australia]], are a [[Grammy Award|Grammy]]-nominated [[rock music|rock]] band, featuring four members previously known for other musical projects.

{{onlinesource2004|section=January 2004

|title=Web page potpourri

|org=Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients

|date=January, 2004

|url=http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0ISW/246/112728040/p1/article.jhtml}}

According to the current definition, The Raconteurs qualify as a rock-and-roll [[Supergroup (bands)|supergroup]], featuring the songwriting of [[Jack White (musician)|Jack White]] of [[The White Stripes]] and [[Brendan Benson]], who are both from [[Detroit, Michigan]]. In the band's own words, however, they are not a [[supergroup]], asserting that the term implies something pre-planned, whereas they are actually "a new band made up of old friends."<ref name=MTV2>JH (2006). [http://www.mtv.co.uk/mtv2/music/article.jhtml?articleId=75132981 "Jack White and chums drop an album"] MTV2.co.uk (accessed May 18, 2006)</ref>

==Top==

What is a NGO? Non Government Organization perhaps? Could someone spell out the acronym? Thanks. [[User:Wesley|Wesley]]

-----

It is probably just me but what does this mean:

The Raconteurs are one of the few non-Irish bands to star in the popular web-cartoons of ''[[Eyebrowy.com]]''.[http://www.eyebrowy.com/animations/jackwhite1.htm]

"From the rule of abstention, according to three criteria:

reference to zero damage

necessity to avoid the worse situation

necessity to include a shift in the burden of proof in dispute settlements proceedings

This rule is usually considered unenforceable as, on one hand there may never be any absolute certainty, nor zero risk, and on the other hand, defining the best of many worse scenarios is a matter of controversy."

==Members==

This is the central definition of the term but I can't make heads or tails of it. What is the "rule of abstention"? What is a worse scenario? (Maybe worst-case scenario?) Why is the precautionary principle never stated just talked about? I can see that it refers to zero damage, avoiding some kind of bad scenario, and shifting the burden of proof from some unstated party to another unstated party but I am not told what the principle is. Very confusing. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 15:36 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

*[[Jack White (musician)|Jack White]] (of [[White Stripes]]) – [[vocals]], [[guitar]], [[keyboards]]

*[[Brendan Benson]] – [[vocals]], [[guitar]], [[keyboards]]

*[[Jack Lawrence (bassist)|Jack Lawrence]] (of [[The Greenhornes]] and [[Blanche (band)|Blanche]]) – [[bass guitar]]

*[[Patrick Keeler]] (of [[The Greenhornes]]) – [[drumkit|drums]], [[percussion]]

*[[Dean Fertita]] (of [[The Waxwings]] and currently [[Queens of the Stone Age]]) as a live touring member only – [[guitar]], [[keyboards]], [[percussion]]

==Biography==

:Very deeply sorry Rmhermen. I probably should not have tried doing this one. Apologies if it is messy and not understandable. I tried my best then. If nothing good can be salvaged of it, just entirely rewrite it please. It was my first article ever here :-( [[User:anthere]]

===Formation===

::Perhpas you could rewrite it as I have no expertise on the subject and don't know what it is tring to say. [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] 19:00 3 Jul 2003 (UTC)

According to the official website, "The seed was sown in an attic in the middle of a hot summer when friends Jack White and Brendan Benson got together and wrote a song that truly inspired them. This song was "[[Steady, As She Goes]]" and the inspiration led to the creation of a full band with the addition of Lawrence and Keeler."

The band came together in Detroit during 2005 and recorded when time allowed for the remainder of the year.

==="Steady, As She Goes"===

:::Well...perhaps. But I found out it was a topic I knew not enough to explain it well then :-( Also, a lot of terminology that I am not familiar with in english. In short, that was tough. I might try again one day (I thought of improving the carthagena protocol...), but would be *very* happy if other people try also...[[User:anthere]]

"[[Steady, As She Goes|Steady, As She Goes/Store Bought Bones]]" was released as a limited-edition 7-inch, 45 rpm vinyl record in Europe on [[January 30]], [[2006]],<ref name="NMEfirstsingle">[http://www.nme.com/news/white-stripes/22043 The Raconteurs confirm first single], ''[[NME]]'', [[2006-01-24]]</ref> and in North America on [[March 7]], [[2006]]. A CD version of "Steady, as She Goes" was released on [[April 24]], [[2006]], with the B-side "Bane Rendition."

The video for "Steady As She Goes," directed by [[Jim Jarmusch]], premiered on [[MTV2 Europe|MTV2]] on [[March 10]], [[2006]]. It was also available for streaming on the band's website. An alternate video, featuring the band racing each other in a soap box derby, with a rare appearance from [[Paul Reubens]] as the bad guy out to sabotage the race, premiered exclusively on [[Yahoo! Music]] [[June 19]], [[2006]].

==Definition==

''[[Entertainment Weekly]]'' ran an article discussing how the song has the exact same bassline as [[Joe Jackson (musician)|Joe Jackson]]'s "[[Is She Really Going Out With Him?]]".<ref name="Copy">{{Cite web|url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,1204700_4_0_,00.html|title=Do You Copy?|accessdate=2006-09-24|year=2006}}</ref>

Phrased as the intro puts it, who could disagree with the precautionary principle? It sounds so noble and careful.

The closing seconds of the track have been used to close "Saturday Live" on BBC Radio 4, generating a lot of interest as to what the song is.

But I've seen it defined other ways, that makes it sound careless and even dangerous. Or at best, inefficient and terrible costly.

===''Broken Boy Soldiers''===

Something like:

* a thing (like radiation or traces of a chemical) must be banned, even at the smallest detectable levels, if larger levels have been proven dangerous.

The Raconteurs' full-length debut, titled ''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]'', was released on [[May 15]], [[2006]] in the UK on Third Man Recordings/XL Recordings and May 16 in the US on Third Man Recordings/V2 Records. It entered the UK charts at #2 and the US charts at #7. The album was recorded at Brendan Benson's in-home studio located in Detroit.

Note that this contradicts the ancient dictum, "[[the dose makes the poison]]". Because there are some things (like [[arsenic]] in drinking water, or low-wattage cellphone radio waves) which have been '''proven''' not to be harmful, '''below''' certain levels.

On [[November 3]], [[2006]], the Raconteurs performed 'Broken Boy Soldier' and 'Store Bought Bones' on [[Later with Jools Holland]]. According to reporters from ''[[Planet Sound]]'' who attended the show taping, during 'Store Bought Bones' Jack White's guitar broke down and they had to re-play the song. This eventually happened four times, with the band breaking up in laughter by the 4th take. The TV airing used edited pieces from all four performances and cut out any laughter.

That is, one cannot '''always''' extrapolate from high levels causes lots of cancer, and medium levels causing some cancer and low levels rarely causing cancer to tiny levels still causing significant levels of cancer. Sometimes actual studies support the theoretical extrapolation, but sometimes they do not.

In December 2006, Broken Boy Soldiers was awarded the title Album of the Year by Britain's Mojo magazine.[http://www.albumofthemonth.com/mojo2006.html]

Opponents of the precautionary principle say that, in the cases where the actual studies DO NOT support extrapolation from higher levels of exposure, the thing should not be automatically banned.

Recently, The Raconteurs have been nominated for two [[Grammy Awards]]: One for [[Grammy Award for Best Rock Album|Best Rock Album]] (for ''Broken Boy Soldiers''), and another for [[Grammy Award for Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal|Best Rock Performance by a Duo or Group with Vocal]] (for "Steady as She Goes").<ref> GRAMMY.COM - 49th Annual Grammy Awards Nominee List, http://www.grammy.com/GRAMMY_Awards/49th_Show/list.aspx</ref>

Supporters of the precautionary principle DO NOT concede that safe levels are possible, when ANY higher level EVER causes harm.

===Future Plans===

How can we write about this in the article? I don't just want to put all the above in (as a first draft). --[[User:Ed Poor|Uncle Ed]] 13:54, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The band is currently recording songs for their next album at Blackbird Studios in [[Nashville, Tennessee]]. They have twelve songs written, and plan on releasing the album in 2008.<ref> Billboard.com "Raconteurs In The Thick Of Recording New Album",http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003575716</ref>

* See the new bits about the fifth and sixth criticisms.

The Raconteurs have also recorded a new song called "Footsteps" with [[The Hives]], probably slated to be on the new album. "5 on the 5," a song the band played live, is likely to be on the album.

The article starts off on the wrong foot, since I don't like the definintion it uses. For example, Article 15 of the Rio Declaration defines the precautionary approach by saying, "where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation." Thus in the arsenic or cell-phone examples cited, if studies do not support extrapolation of the results at one scale or dose to another, the precautionary principle would not be invoked. If there were reasonable doubt about the dose-response relationship, and sensible people have good reason to believe that there is a significant danger at lower doses, it would be invoked, even in the absence of "full scientific certainty". This is no more than good sense, and we use it ourselves all the time in our daily lives.

Along with those tracks, it's possible one of the many covers the band played live (or an entirely different one) will be on the album.

The "opponents" and "supporters" cited above are apparently using a definition of the precautionary principle that is bound to lead to extreme and irreconcilable positions.

Other possibilities would be one of the leaked Brendan Benson demos. One reason for this was that both "Call It A Day" and "Together" were supposed to be on a solo album of his, as well as "Store Bought Bones" which was supposed to be a [[Get Behind Me Satan]] song. If a demo of his appeared on the new album, it would be likely to be "Feel Like Taking You Home Now" since critics have pointed out a Raconteurs influence.

Rio Declaration on Environment and Development at http://www.un.org/documents/ga/conf151/aconf15126-1annex1.htm

Also, the title "Monkeys Have It Easy" was placed on the White Stripes site in the press release for [[Icky Thump]] with "discarded" after it. It's unlikely, but the song could be a new Raconteurs song now.

== Biased article ==

The band recorded for a three week period before they prepared for individual releases with their other bands, though Jack said they might not finish by then.

This entry looks to me like having been written by a strong defender of "wise use" etc. That starts at the very beginning:

==Discography==

Since when is "German Democratic Socialism" known as National Socialism or Nazism? Saying something like that is a gross offence to all Social Democrats who have suffered in Nazi Concentration Camps. And when you look up the entry "Democratic Socialism" you will see quickly that the "Social Democrats" have nothing whatsoever to do with Hitler and the Nazis!

=== Albums ===

<gallery>

Image: Broken Boy Soldiers.jpg|<center>'''''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]'''''<br><center> [[May 15]], [[2006]]<br>[[V2 Records]]<br>US #7, UK #2<br><br><center>

</gallery>

They have also released live performance albums in limited quantities at their respective concerts.

===Singles===

This article seems very biased to me; its way of contrasting the concept of a free country with "the European style of thought" is merely insulting.

{| class="wikitable sortable"

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|Year

!align="left" valign="top"|Song

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|<small>[[Billboard Hot 100|U.S. Hot 100]]<small>

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|<small>[[Modern Rock Tracks chart|U.S. Modern Rock]]<small>

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|<small>[[UK singles chart]]<small>

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|<small>[[UK Download Chart]]<small>

!align="center" valign="top" width="40"|<small>[[UK singles chart|UK Indie Singles]]<small>

!align="left" valign="top"|Album

|-

|align="center" valign="top"|2006

|align="left" valign="top"|"[[Steady, As She Goes]]"

|align="center" valign="top"|55

|align="center" valign="top"|'''1'''

|align="center" valign="top"|4

|align="center" valign="top"|5

|align="center" valign="top"|1

|align="left" valign="top"|''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]''

|-

|align="center" valign="top"|2006

|align="left" valign="top"|"[[Hands (Raconteurs song)|Hands]]"

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|29

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|2

|align="left" valign="top"|''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]''

|-

|align="center" valign="top"|2006

|align="left" valign="top"|"[[Broken Boy Soldier (Raconteurs song)|Broken Boy Soldier]]"

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|22

|align="center" valign="top"|39

|align="center" valign="top"|2

|align="left" valign="top"|''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]''

|-

|align="center" valign="top"|2007

|align="left" valign="top"|"[[Level (Raconteurs song)|Level]]"

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|7

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="center" valign="top"|-

|align="left" valign="top"|''[[Broken Boy Soldiers]]''

|-

|}

==Live performances==

Contrast this article with the German article "Vorsorgeprinzip"; it is shorter, but contains more solid facts (on various uses of the principle, includes some interesting references) and no biased political ramblings.

The Raconteurs first performed live at the Academy in [[Liverpool]], [[United Kingdom|U.K.]], on [[March 20]], [[2006]], launching a short British tour. Their first American date was the next month, on [[April 20]] at [[New York City|New York]]'s [[Irving Plaza]]. Nearly nonstop touring followed, bringing the band to audiences around North America and Europe. The high profile of [[Jack White]] meant that even though the band was new, they were able to sell out mid-size venues — a rarity for a band's first tour.

The band has played a number of music festivals in Europe, Asia, and North America (including Lollapalooza in Chicago, IL and [[Austin City Limits Music Festival]] in [[Austin, Texas]]), headlining many.

== Risk ==

: Re. risk theory -- the principle is a philosophy by which decisions are made when risk cannot be calculated. It is not part of standard risk theory.

In November [[2006]], the Raconteurs played eight dates as the opening act for [[Bob Dylan]] on the northeastern leg of his U.S. tour.

"The essence of the principle is that when probabilities cannot be calculated with reasonable precision (i.e. it is a situation of uncertainty), then decisions that could potentially lead to great harm should be postponed or avoided." <-- this phrase is redundant with the first lines of the definition. ([[User:Emcee]])

The band has performed a number of covers during live shows. For instance, the set list usually includes renditions of "[[Bang Bang (My Baby Shot Me Down)]]" (a song written by [[Sonny Bono]] and popularized by both [[Cher]] and [[Nancy Sinatra]]) and "Headin' For the Texas Border" by [[The Flamin Groovies]]. Other songs the band has covered include [[Gnarls Barkley]]'s "[[Crazy (Gnarls Barkley song)|Crazy]]", [[Bo Diddley]]'s "Who Do You Love?", [[The Undertones]]' "[[Teenage Kicks]]," [[David Bowie]]'s "[[It Ain't Easy (song)|It Ain´t Easy]]", and [[Love (band)|Love]]'s "A House Is Not A Motel".

Emcee said:

I'm finding your continual revision of the Precautionary Principle to be biased towards putting the principle in a wholly positive light and making it seem as if it has been around for centuries and is a widely accepted best practice. What I'm working for is to make the definition as neutral (and contemporary) as possible, while relegating more controversial interpretations and connections to the criticism or other sections.

== The Saboteurs ==

You seem to want to link the precautionary principle to medical precepts and legal standards that actually are not related and also preceded the principle by thousands of years... quote:

The Raconteurs were forced to rename themselves as "The Saboteurs" for the Australian market when it was discovered that a [[Queensland]] band was already using the name "Raconteurs". The Queensland band refused to give up their name for the amount they were offered, and instead tried to extract a higher price from the Raconteurs' record company.<ref name="HeraldSunNameChange">[http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,18734967%255E28957,00.html Double-up forces switch], ''[[Herald Sun]]'', [[2006-04-07]]</ref>

A member of the Queensland band has said that they hadn't been informed of who was trying to buy their name and asked for the larger sum of money to see what would happen.<ref name="TripleJNameChange">[http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/musicnews/s1613948.htm Saboteurs of Raconteurs], ''[[Triple J|Triple J Music News]]'', [[2006-04-11]]</ref>

==Audio sample==

"Methodologies related to the precautionary principle may also be found in medicine ("first, do no harm") and law (convict when guilt is shown "beyond a reasonable doubt")."

{{Listen|filename=Steady_as_she_goes.ogg|title="Steady, As She Goes"|description=25-second clip of the chorus of [[Steady, As She Goes]] by The Raconteurs|format=[[Ogg]]}}

==References==

They have nothing to do with the precautionary principle. It is not being applied when pharmeceutical companies do clinical trials -- if you want to make this connection, show show significant documentation. It is not being applied in the courtroom either. If you want to say that it grew out of those philosphies, then do so in your "medicine and law" section, but not in the definition -- and again, provide some references for your theories. You cannot, however, say that doctors (including those working for pharmaceutical companies) or judges are applying the precautionary principle, because they are not.

{{reflist}}

==External links==

Secondly, deleting the section on the active implementation of the precautionary principle is also incorrect. I provided documentation to the 6 principles that have been defined by various organizations as the core of the principle; they are defined by organizations that believe in the principle, so it's not perjorative. You say this in your edit summary:

*[http://www.theraconteurs.com/ TheRaconteurs.com], Official website ([[Adobe Flash|Flash]] required)

*[http://www.candycanechildren.com/ CandyCaneChildren.com] news, message board, chat room

*[http://www.billboard.com/bb/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000944462 "White, Benson Make A Racket With Greenhornes"], from Billboard.com

*[http://www.brokenboysoldiers.net/"BrokenBoySoldiers.net"], Raconteurs tablatures and lyrics

*[http://stream.qtv.apple.com/qtv/v2music/steady_ref.mov "Steady as She Goes" video (.MOV)]

*[http://www.avclub.com/content/node/52559 The Onion A.V. Club's interview with The Raconteurs], September 7th, 2006

*[http://www.theraconteursfans.com/ theRaconteursFans.com] - the Raconteurs fan site

* [http://www.videology-tv.com/viewclip.php?id=38#info Music Video for 'Broken Boy Soldier' + interview with director Floria Sigismondi]

* [http://www.albumofthemonth.com/magazineindex.html British music magazine album of the year lists]

*[http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/07/20/weekend-rock-list-best-live-bands-playing-today/ One of Rolling Stones Best Bands to See Live]

"preventative anticipation" is a pointless neologism; it's nearly always interpretable as the standard PP)

{{DEFAULTSORT:Raconteurs, The}}

Yet, when you delete it, the definition in the article only describes a passive interpretation of the principle -- only "it is better to avoid that action" and not it is better to take action now than be sorry later.

[[Category:American rock music groups]]

A couple of style points:

[[Category:Michigan musical groups]]

[[Category:Supergroups]]

[[Category:American indie rock groups]]

[[da:The Raconteurs]]

1.) many of your edits have had little or no edit summary (sometimes when they are significant deletions, additions, or revisions)

[[de:The Raconteurs]]

[[es:The Raconteurs]]

2.) I think it defeats the point of defining a term when you feel the need to insert pithy colloquialisms into the first line or two of a definition. We are trying to give the reader a balanced and nuanced view of a term that has a significant amount of controversy and divergence of

[[fr:The Raconteurs]]

[[it:The Raconteurs]]

==

[[nl:The Raconteurs]]

[[ja:ラカンターズ]]

Emcee, let's both be more careful about our edits.

[[pl:The Raconteurs]]

* You were right about the Hippocratic Oath, which led me to nail down the relationship with "first, do no harm". But I had to follow the footnote in the external link you gave to understand that (an external link which was also slightly broken).

[[pt:The Raconteurs]]

* Proactionary Principle is a clear breach of Wikipedia rules. The fact that it wasn't deleted on vfd merely illustrates why there is a big debate about [[Wikipedia:Deletion reform]]. In the mean time, let's not compound the error by giving it the status of a "see also", a section meant for significant related topics, not neologisms.

[[sv:The Raconteurs]]

* [http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22Preventative+anticipation%22 "Preventative anticipation"] is a neologism, and we [[Wikipedia:Neologism|don't want those on Wikipedia]]. It doesn't matter who coined or whether it's useful - which incidentally I don't think it is, it's just the result of woolly thinking in situations where the possibly harmful action is already ongoing. This situation should be explained better in the article, but not by introducing neologisms in the intro.

[[th:เดอะ รัคคอนเทอร์ส]]

* [[User talk:Rd232|You wrote]] various things denying any connection between the "precautionary principle" and its substance being applied in areas such as medicine and law. The philosophy underlying the principle ''has'' been around for centuries, and ''is'' embodied in medical and legal concepts. The concept has a wide range of interpretations and, does not require reference to the words "precautionary principle" for its substance to be applied.

* You also wrote "It is not being applied when pharmeceutical companies do clinical trials". Your statement is ambiguous; I'd said it was embodied in the ''policy of requiring clinical trials'', which I think is fair. Again, reference to the phrase is not required for its substance to be applied.

The article still needs plenty of work, especially in application and criticism. I think "criticism" needs to disappear as a separate section - articles are always better when critical points are in the body of the article, not least since doing so often requires a better structure. [[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 09:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

I think we need to be clear about the burden (and standard) of proof of safety as the fundamental issue for the substance of PP. Discussion of difference between PP in context of possibly harmful action already ongoing, versus being planned, may also be helpful as it seems to confuse people. It may also clarify the clash of priorities/interests that is key to the debate about applying PP (eg trading off your profits vs risk to my child).[[User:Rd232|Rd232]] 09:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Proactionary Principle is not a breach of Wikipedia rules:

"Wikipedia does not accept fan-made neologisms unless they have realistic evidence of existence via search engine hits (e.g. Google)." This principle has a ton of hits on Google, and was voted to stay. Until there's some "deletion reform" that changes this, you have to accept it.

Additionally, based on the way you are defining the Precautionary Principle, as a recently-created term to reword old terms and concepts, the Precautionary Principle itself is a neologism and shouldn't be in Wikipedia:

"A neologism is word, term, or phrase which has been recently created ("coined") —often to apply to new concepts, or to reshape older terms in newer language form. Neologisms are especially useful in identifying inventions, new phenomena, or old ideas which have taken on a new cultural context." (Wikipedia definition)

Deleting the reference to the Proactionary Principle is like trying to prevent readers from being aware of criticisms and contemporary context of the Principle. More info == good. If Wikipedia does not even delete this as a separately defined term, it's just plain wrong to delete it as a minor "see also" reference. If you disagree with this, let's seek arbitration.

You say:

"The philosophy underlying the principle ''has'' been around for centuries, and ''is'' embodied in medical and legal concepts. The concept has a wide range of interpretations and, does not require reference to the words "precautionary principle" for its substance to be applied."

That's fine if you think that, but if you can't provide significant documentation showing a clear link of how the principle grew out of those traditions, then it shouldn't be included. This documentation does have to reference the term "Precautionary Principle," otherwise, this is your own original theory or research. There is a clear and significant difference between similar approaches in other fields, and an actual historical antecedent with clear relevance to the modern principle. We are trying to define the term "Precautionary Principle," and referring to similar ideas with no direct or causal relationship just muddies the waters.

[[User:Emcee|Emcee]] 03:28, 28 August 2005 (PST)

==changes to laws affecting societal norms==

Before commenting on my inclusion of this subtopic, please go to my link on the decision. It is from my personal blog because the link to the full decision is in HTTP mode with no page numbers and I can not direct the reader to the opinion I am referencing. Sosman articulated the Precautionary principle quite specifically, almost to the point of making this very emotional decision seem bloodless. Note her analogy to a mechanical device in her opinion.

[[User:Arodb|Arodb]] 02:20, 4 January 2006 (UTC)This is my first contribution to Wikipedia, so be kind