The Celtic Manor Resort Wales Open and Talk:Kliper: Difference between pages

Revision as of 18:16, 24 May 2005

Revision as of 01:59, 21 June 2005

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==European funding==

#REDIRECT[[Celtic Manor Wales Open]]

All this seems insane to me. The grim situation of space in Europe makes it impossible for them to pay the 1.8 billion which are mentioned in the article. We should put some cautionary words about that and not state as fact what is impossible. Furthermore, human spaceflight has a very low priority in Europe. I think extremely unlikely that ESA commits more than €50 to 100 millions to the project during the coming years.[[User:194.183.196.141|194.183.196.141]] 11:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:For me, it seems that russian/european and maybe also japanese cooperation on Kliper can work. ESA could pay 100 millions € each year, as mentioned in the Observer article. We will know it for sure in December 2005. --[[User:Bricktop|Bricktop]] 11:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::I think there will be choices to make, between exploration, human (Kliper) or robotic (Mars Rover/Pasteur) in December. My gut feeling is that priority should go to rover. Europe is not America and cannot do everything.[[User:194.183.196.141|194.183.196.141]] 11:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::I really hope they can do both. The Mars rover programm costs also about 100-150 Millions € per year (with a 2011 launch) and without ESA it is unlikely Russia can build Kliper on its own due to lack of money. --[[User:Bricktop|Bricktop]] 00:24, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::With regard to the figures in the article - they are derived from various articles and (I guess) they ultimately relate back to the article in the Guardian stating that a special EU-funded (yes, not from the ESA budget) program costing about 100 million British pound (=ca 160 million euro = 180 million dollar) for 10 years is discussed - hence the 1.8 billion figure. With regards to the "grim situation" of space (business) in Europe - I am confused, what do you mean with that? The ESA budget has risen double as fast during the last 10 years in comparison with the US. If you are concerned about the Russian Space Agency's funding - that is another question - however if we look at Russia's economic upturn (5-10% growth a year) they may well pay for the rest. [[User:Themanwithoutapast|Themanwithoutapast]] 00:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::Just another little note on "Europe is not America" - I hope you know that - if you led aside the amount spend by NASA for the Space Shuttle and the ISS (both extremely expensive and both not really operational) - the budget figures are practically the same. Europe: 3 billion euro ESA + about 4 billion euro national space agencies (1.4 bn CNES; 750 mn DLR;...) = 7 bn euro (=ca. 8.5 - 9 bn dollar) USA: 16 billion dollar - (7 billion for Shuttle (5 billion) and ISS (2 billion)) = 9 bn dollar. Compare the [[ESA]]-budget sections for a more detailed overview. wahrscheinlich[[User:Themanwithoutapast|Themanwithoutapast]] 00:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::::Thanks for correcting my numbers :). I think, ESA has the money to contribute in developing Kliper, but I doubt they really want to. Also if Kliper should be launched from Kourou, the Onega booster likely must be developed, as an Ariane 5 launch could be to oversized and to expensive. By the way, I even read somewhere, ESA's budget should grow up to 5 billion euros in 2006, but I don't know if it's correct. Do you know something about it? Now to Russia: there is now enough money in Russia, but they will not spend it for space exploration. The Russian Space Agency's budget grows very slowly, so if they will get funding for Kliper development (we should know it in July I think), it will certainly be not sufficient. This is the reason why they want to cooperate with other countries on that project.--[[User:Bricktop|Bricktop]] 01:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::Didn't hear about this rise to 5 billion in budget - would be amazing, but I doubt it. With regard to Kliper and uncertainty of Europe's contribution (once again - this is more a political question, not so much an ESA management decision), I don't think that the article as it stands now suggest too much certainty about the whole matter. However, as for my part I personally believe that there will be a joined project (how much Europe will spend - we'll know in December). Last point: Russia - there is still the possibility of a policial propaganda move by Putin, in fact the Russian media liked the story of a "Russian Space Shuttle" - so at least if Europe approves funding, I doubt that Russia will back out. P.S.: Wir können auch auf deutsch kommunizieren... [[User:Themanwithoutapast|Themanwithoutapast]] 01:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::::You're right, the whole Kliper cooperation is more a political thing. But there are also many unresolved technical and organizational problems with Kliper (spaceship itself, launcher and so on), so I yet remain sceptical it will fly in the next 10 years or even ever. But the chances that I'm wrong are now getting better ;-). P.S. deutsch ist natürlich einfacher für mich, damit schreibe ich mindestens 5 mal schneller :-), aber hier sollten wir englisch nutzen, damit die anderen User mitlesen können ;-). --[[User:Bricktop|Bricktop]] 01:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

==Launcher==

I thought the reference launcher was [[Zenit rocket|Zenit]], since it is human rated (booster of Energia).

:Apparently no more, as Zenit is a half-ukrainian rocket.--[[User:Bricktop|Bricktop]] 11:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)