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The Indo-Pakistani War of 1947 sometimes known as the '''First Kashmir War''' was a war fought between [[India]] and [[Pakistan]] over the region of [[Kashmir]] from [[1947]] to [[1949]]. It was the first of the many wars fought among the two newly independent nations.
{{Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Header}}
==Cause==
The state of [[Jammu and Kashmir]] had been part of India since time immemorial. It was one of a number of Indian states that recognised British paramountcy. Prior to the withdrawal of the British from India, the state came under pressure from both India and Pakistan to join their states. The [[Maharaja]] of Kashmir, [[Hari Singh]] wanted to remain independent and tried to delay the issue. However at the time of British withdrawal the state was invaded by a concentrated force of Pakistani-backed irregulars and regular Pakistani soldiers. This forced him to accede Kashmir to India who promptly rushed into Kashmir and thus the war had started.
==Summary Listingsof War==
The AZK had several advantages in the war, notably:
{{sfd-current}}
*Prior to the war the Jammu and Kashmir state forces had been spread thinly around the border as a response to terrorist activity, and so were badly deployed to counter a full scale invasion.
Please put new listings under [[#{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|today's date]] at the '''''top of the section'''''.
*Some of the state forces rebelled and joined the invaders.
*The AZK were also aided by regular Pakistani soldiers who manned some of their units, with the proportion increasing throughout the war.
*British officers may have helped the Pakistanis plan the attack.
As a result of these advantages the main invasion force quickly brushed aside the Jammu and Kashmir state forces. But the attacker’s advantage was not vigorously pressed and the Indians saved the country by airlifting reinforcements. This was at the price of the state formally succeeding to India. With Indian reinforcements the Pakistani / AZK offensive ran out of steam towards the end of 1947. The exception to this was in the High Himalayas sector where the AZK were able to make substantial progress until turned back at the outskirts of Leh in late June 1948. Throughout 1948 many small-scale battles were fought. None of these gave a strategic advantage to either side and the fronts gradually solidified. Support for the AZK forces by Pakistan became gradually more overt with regular Pakistani units becoming involved. A formal cease-fire was declared on [[31 December]], 1948.
==Results of the War==
The independent state of Jammu and Kashmir ceased to exist. The cease fire line has over the years became a de facto division of the country. This has given about one third of the land area to Pakistan and about two thirds to India. The Indians retained control of the relatively wealthy and populous Kashmir Valley, and a majority of the population. In [[1956]], this area became the state of Jammu and Kashmir in the India union.
===JuneStages 20=of the War==
This war has been split into ten stages by time. The individual stages are detailed below.
====[[Template:Current-now-aniv]]====
Added to two articles which deal with events taking place on June 19. Little apparent purpose.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 05:44, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===Initial Invasion 22 Oct 1947 – 26 Oct 1947 (Op Gulmarg)===
===June 19===
[[Image:J&K01low.jpg|Initial Invasion 22 Oct 1947 – 26 Oct 1947 (Op Gulmarg)]]<br>
====[[Template:Anarchism2]]====
A large invasion of the Kashmir valley was mounted by the irregular forces, aimed at Srinagar, the capital of Jammu and Kashmir. The state forces were defeated and the way to the capital, ([[Srinagar]]), was open. There was also a mutiny by state forces in favour of the AZK in Domel.
Used on only one page. [[User:Ingoolemo|<font color=blue>Ingoolemo</font>]] [[User_talk:Ingoolemo|<font color=blue><sup>talk</font></sup>]] 04:34, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)
In desperation, Hari Singh, the ruler of Kashmir requested the Indian Government for Indian troops to stop the uprising. The Indians told him that if Singh signed an Instrument of Accession allowing Kashmir to join the Indian Union, only then would India rush in troops for the protection of one of its territories. This, the Maharaja promptly did. Following this accession, the Indian troops arrived and quickly blocked the advance of the invaders, preventing the imminent sacking of Srinigar.
====[[Template:Slashdot]]====
However, many of the irregular forces went home with their loot after plundering local towns and thus failed to press the attack home. In the Punch valley the Jammu and Kashmir state forces retreated into towns and were besieged.
Since it has no meaningful ordering other than alphabetical, and since the [[:Category:Slashdot]] already exists, '''delete''' this. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:35, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
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*'''Delete''': Not only can this be done better with categories, it ''should'' be done by prose in the slashdot article. [[User:Steinsky|Joe D]] [[User talk:Steinsky|(t)]] 12:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:There are 18 articles in Category:Slashdot and it's subcategory, and it makes sense to highlight the most important. As for describing them in the Slashdot article itself, what about the nine other places in article space where it is used as a navigational aid? [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 19:10, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Unless it changed in the last few minutes, then it doesn't look alphabetical, and navigation templates are naturally less all encompassing than categories. Could do with a little cleanup though. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 13:13, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Most people who will be looking at one of the [[Slashdot]] articles will probably want to look at some of the other articles. This navigation box makes that convenient. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 13:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Useful navigation box. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 16:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. What is the point of having categories if there are going to be templates everywhere? - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 17:30, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': Convinced by Joe D's argument [[User:Mark Lewis|Mark Lewis]] 18:59, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' now that it's been reworked. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 19:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' useful navigation box. [[User:Nickptar|Nickptar]] 20:19, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===Indian defence of the Kashmir Valley 27 Oct 1947 – 17 Nov 1947===
====[[Template:Guideline1]]====
[[Image:J&K02low.jpg|Indian defence of the Kashmir Valley 27 Oct 1947 – 17 Nov 1947]]<br>
Fork of [[Template:Guideline]]. Maybe we should consider speedy'ing template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:15, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
Indian forces, rapidly airlifted to Srinagar managed to defeat the irregular forces on the outskirts of the town. This was partially due to an outflanking manoeuvre by armoured cars. Shattered, the AZK were pursued as far as Baramula and Uri and these towns were recaptured. In the Punch valley the sieges of the loyal Jammu and Kashmir state forces continued. Meanwhile, the troops in Gilgit (the Gilgit Scouts) mutinied and this yielded most of the far north of the state to the AZK.
:Why are you proposing this for deletion, Radiant, and what do you mean by fork? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 09:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
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*What I meant is that it's a duplicate of an existing template. Creating two divergent templates for a single purpose is potentially confusing. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:54, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
=== Attempted link-up at Punch 18 Nov 1947 – 26 Nov 1947===
:How could it be confusing? There are many templates with different versions. Who would it confuse, and what might they be confused by? [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 09:55, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:J&K03low.jpg|Attempted link-up at Punch 18 Nov 1947 – 26 Nov 1947]]<br>
:*It would be confusing to see guidelines classified with two different templates. It implies that there are different kinds, or levels, of guidelines, and doesn't clarify in any way where the distinction lies. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 10:03, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
The Indian forces ceased their pursuit of the shattered AZK forces and swung south in an attempt to relieve Punch. This was less successful than hoped, because inadequate reconnaissance had underestimated the difficulty of the roads. Although the relief column eventually reached Punch, the siege could not be lifted. A second relief column reached only Kotli and was forced to evacuate its garrison. Mirpur was captured by the AZK and its inhabitants particularly the Hindus were slaughtered.
::The only difference at the moment is that one is beige and the other is yellow, which I doubt will cause much confusion, and I've elsewhere explained to you that I'm going to reword the second one to improve the English, because the writing on the current template isn't very good. The important thing is to explain that the page is a guideline, not policy, and I won't be changing that core issue. Why on earth would the existence of this template matter to you so much that you nominate it for deletion within an hour of its creation? I'd be grateful if you would explain that, so I can understand what this is about. It's looking as though you've appointed yourself the template police. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 10:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
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:::Multiple forks of the same content are problematic if the content/purpose of the "original" changes and the forks are not updated appropriately. You then have the possibility of multiple "official" looking templates that give differing information on the same subject. --[[User:TheParanoidOne|TheParanoidOne]] 10:44, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===Fall of Jhanger and attacks on Naoshera and Uri 25 Nov 1947 - 6 Feb 1948===
:::"Template police" might be a bit hard, but TFD is quite deletionist with respect to template forking. See, for example, Whedon-spoiler below. It has distinctive content and is used on dozens of pages and yet this community wants to delete it. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:J&K04low.jpg|Fall of Jhanger and attacks on Naoshera and Uri 25 Nov 1947 - 6 Feb 1948]]<br>
*And '''keep''', by the way. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 10:32, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
The Pakistani/AZK forces attacked and captured Jhanger. They then attacked Naoshera unsuccessfully. In both areas they killed and raped not only Hindus but any muslims who were against them. Other Pakistani/AZK forces made a series of unsuccessful attacks on Uri. In the south a minor Indian attack secured Chhamb. By this stage of the war the front line began to stabilise as more Indian troops became available.
*'''Delete'''. Obviously, if the wording of the existing needs attention, ''that'' template should be edited. Another template with 'better' wording is rediculous. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 10:45, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
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*'''Userfy'''. As a developmental version it would do better (meaning avoid objections) by being placed in user space until SlimVirgin knows how she wants to change the templates in general use or how it will distinguish itself. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
===Op Vijay: counterattack to Jhanger 7 Feb 1948 - 1 May 1948===
*'''Userfy''' and calm down. One of the deletion criteria is "Templates should not be redundant". If the original template needs work, just work on it. [[User:Sarg|Sarg]] 11:06, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:J&K05low.jpg| Op Vijay: counterattack to Jhanger 7 Feb 1948 - 1 May 1948]]<br>
*'''Comment''. I just want to note for the record that I'd only just created the thing, in order to see whether I could work out how to change the color without screwing up the first one. I went to make myself something to eat, and returned to see it nominated for deletion! And not a word to me, which signals a distinct absence of the collaborative spirit. That's all I'm going to say because this isn't worth expending energy on. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 11:16, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
The Indian forces launched a counterattack in the south recapturing Jhanger and Rajauri. In the Kashmir Valley the Pakistani/AZK forces continued attacking the Uri garrison. In the north Skardu was brought under siege by Pakistani/AZK forces.
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===Indian Spring Offensive 1 May 1948 - 19 May 1948===
[[Image:J&K06low.jpg|Indian Spring Offensive 1 May 1948 - 19 May 1948]]<br>
The Indians held onto Jhanger against numerous counterattacks from the AZK, who were increasingly supported by regular Pakistani Forces. In the Kashmir Valley the Indians attacked, recapturing Tithwail. The AZK made good progress in the High Himalayas sector, infiltrating troops to bring Leh under siege, capturing Kargil and defeating a relief column heading for Skardu.
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===Operations Gulab and Erase 19 May 1948 - 14 Aug 1948===
[[Image:J&K07low.jpg|Indian Spring Offensive 1 May 1948 - 19 May 1948]]<br>
The Indians continued to attack in the Kashmir Valley sector driving north to capture Keran and Gurais. They also repelled a counterattack aimed at Tithwail. In the Punch Valley the forces besieged in Punch broke out and temporarily linked up with the outside world again. The AZK made good progress in the High Himalayas sector and got to the outskirts of Leh and eventually captured Skardu. However an attempt to take the town of Leh itself was unsuccessful.
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===Operation Duck 15 Aug 1948 - 1 Nov 1948===
[[Image:J&K08low.jpg|Operation Duck 15 Aug 1948 - 1 Nov 1948]]<br>
During this time the front began to settle down with less activity by either side, the only major event was an unsuccessful attack by the Indians towards Dras (Operation Duck). The siege of Punch continued.
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===Operation Easy. Punch link-up 1 Nov 1948 - 26 Nov 1948===
[[Image:J&K09low.jpg|Operation Easy. Punch link-up 1 Nov 1948 - 26 Nov 1948]]<br>
The Indians now started to get the upper hand in all sectors. Punch was finally relieved after a siege of over a year. The AZK forces in the High Himalayas, who had previously made good progress, were finally defeated. The Indians pursued as far as Kargil before being forced to halt due to supply problems. The Zoji-La pass was forced by using tanks (which had not been thought possible at that altitude) and Dras was recaptured. The use of tanks was based on experience gained in Burma in 1945.
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===Moves up to cease-fire. 27 Nov 1948 - 31 Dec 1948===
[[Image:J&K10low.jpg| Moves up to cease-fire. 27 Nov 1948 - 31 Dec 1948]]<br>
Realising that they were not going to make any further progress in any sector, the Pakistanis decided to end the war. A UN cease-fire was arranged for the 31st Dec 1948. A few days before the cease-fire the Pakistanis launched a counter attack, which cut the road between Uri and Punch.
===June 18===
After protracted negotiations a cease-fire was agreed to by both countries, which came into effect. The terms of the cease-fire as laid out in the UNCIP resolution (http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/uncom1.htm) of [[August 13]], 1948 were adopted by the UN on [[January 5]], 1949. This required Pakistan to withdraw her forces, both regular and irregular, while allowing India to maintain minimum strength of her forces in the state to preserve law and order. On compliance of these conditions a plebiscite was to be held to determine the future of the territory. In all, 1,500 soldiers died on each side during the war and Pakistan was able to acquire roughly two-fifths of Kashmir. (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/indo-pak_1947.htm)
==Military insights gained from the war.==
====[[Template:GuanacoTest]]====
===On the use of armour===
Another user test template, this time for some boilerplate text. Not used. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The use of light tanks and armoured cars was important at two stages of the war. Both of these Indian victories involved very small numbers of AFVs. These were:-
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*The defeat of the initial thrust at Srinagar, which was aided by the arrival of 2 armoured cars in the rear of the irregular forces.
*'''Speedy delete'''. Test pages [[Wikipedia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion#General|qualify]]. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:01, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*The forcing of the Zoji-La pass with 11 Stuart M5 light tanks.
*Isn't '''Userfy''' actually more appropriate? Has anyone e-mailed {{user|guanaco}} about it (looks like he's not very active, and perhaps not likely to see the message on the talk page)? -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 15:31, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
This may show that armour can have a significant psychological impact if it turns up at places thought of as impossible.
*'''Delete''' or ''speedy delete'''. [[User:Guanaco|Guan]][[User talk:Guanaco|aco]] 20:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It is also likely that the invaders did not deploy anti-tank weapons to counter these threats. Even the lightest weapons will significantly encumber leg infantry units, so they may well have been perceived as not worth the effort of carrying about, and left in rear areas. This will greatly enhance the psychological impact of the armour when it does appear.
**Okay. Deleted. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 21:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The successful use of armour in this campaign strongly influenced Indian tactics in the 1962 war where great efforts were made to deploy armour to inhospitable regions (although with much less success in that case).
===Progression of front lines===
====[[Template:Edittest]]====
*It is interesting to chart the progress of the front lines. After a certain troop density is reached progress was very slow with victories being counted in the capture of individual villages or peaks. Where troop density was lower (as it was in the High Himalayas sector and at the start of the war) rates of advance can be very high.
Another user test template. Not used. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:52, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===Deployment of forces===
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:52, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*The Jammu and Kashmir state forces were spread out in small packets along the frontier to deal with terrorist incidents. This made them very vulnerable to a conventional attack. India used this tactic against East Pakistan in 1971.
*'''Speedy delete'''. Test pages [[Wikipedia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion#General|qualify]]. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
==References==
*'''Userfy''', until we hear from {{user|jerryseinfeld}}. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 15:34, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
===Major Sources===
*“Operations In Jammu and Kashmir 1947-1948” Ministry of Defence, Government of India, Thomson Press (India) Limited. New Delhi 1987. This is the Indian Official History, and was the major source for this work.
*“The Indian Army After Independence”, by KC Praval, 1993. Lancer International, 1-897829-45-0
*“Slender Was The Thread: The Kashmir confrontation 1947-1948”, by Maj Gen LP Sen, 1969. Orient Longmans Ltd New Delhi.
*“Without Baggage: A personal account of the Jammu and Kashmir Operations 1947-1949” Lt Gen. E. A. Vas. 1987. Natraj Publishers Dehradun. ISBN 81-85019-09-6.
===Other Sources===
*“The Indian Armour: History Of The Indian Armoured Corps 1941-1971”, by Maj Gen Gurcharn Sandu, 1987, Vision Books Private Limited, New Delhi, ISBN 81-7094-004-4.
*“Thunder over Kashmir”, by Lt Col Maurice Cohen. 1955 Orient Longman Ltd. Hyderabad
*“Battle of Zoji La”, by Brig Gen SR Hinds, Military Digest, New Delhi, 1962.
*“History of Jammu and Kashmir Rifles (1820-1956)”, by Maj K Barhma Singh, Lancer International New Dehli, 1990, ISBN 81-7062-091-0.
==See also==
====[[Template:Eric42TestPages]]====
*[[Indo-Pakistani War of 1965]]
A user just "messing around". The template is only found one of the user's subpages. it should be subst:'d and then deleted. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*[[Partition of India]]
*'''Subst: and then Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst''' & '''speedy delete'''. Test pages [[Wikipedia:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion#General|qualify]]. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:44, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Userfy''' until we hear from {{user|Eric42}}. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 15:35, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Indo-Pakistan Wars]]
====[[Template:Hurricaneivanlatestadvisory]]====
[[Category:Kashmir]]
The name is self explanitory. It's an advisory from SAT SEP 11 2004. Presumably at one time the text was transcluded into an article on [[Hurricane Ivan]], but a Wikipedia and Google site-search didn't find anything. [[User:Poccil]] who created the page quit editing in February. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:1947]]
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Jammu and Kashmir]]
*'''Delete'''. No longer useful. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as per previous. --[[User:Feydey|Feydey]] 13:15, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:ChattFM]]====
A template for adding [[:Category:Chattanooga FM stations]] to articles. Used on exactly one article. It should be subst:'d and deleted. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 09:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst: and delete''' [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 09:27, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst''' & '''delete'''. Obviously unnecessary. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===June 17===
====[[Template:Multispoiler]]====
Another specialized spoiler template. Unecessary. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundant. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep'''. May be useful in articles about multiple fictional works. If not kept, at least make a redirect to [[Template:Spoiler]]. Or can templates be redirected at all? [[User:JIP|<nowiki></nowiki>]] — <font color="#CC0000">J</font><font color="#00CC00">I</font><font color="#0000CC">P</font> | [[User talk:JIP|Talk]] 19:53, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Yes, templates can be redirected, and that would make sense in this case. '''Delete and/or redirect'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 10:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Npov/perpetual]]====
A variation on the {{tl|NPOV}} template. Unfortunately, most articles that get the NPOV tag seem to keep it forever, but this template is not the solution for that problem. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundant. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:54, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Msh]]====
An unused template for adding a non-existing category (Maps of South Holland) to an article. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Serves no purpose. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:55, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Whedon-spoiler]]====
We do not need a [[Template:Spoiler|spoiler template]] for every single fictional universe. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 02:16, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Why not? It's useful and affects a large number of pages. If someone wants to keep track of it and use it then I think it is worth having. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:00, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It is better to use a template which warns what is going to be spoiled. [[User:MosheZadka|MosheZadka]] 09:46, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - useless overspecialization. -- [[User:Cyrius|Cyrius]]|[[User talk:Cyrius|✎]] 04:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I do not see how it is significantly useful. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 04:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete.''' It serves the same exact purpose as [[Template:Spoiler]]. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 04:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Unecessary specialization; redundant with [[Template:Spoiler]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', for the reason cited. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 05:43, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', simple [[template:spoiler]] is enough. [[User:Evil Monkey|Evil Monkey]]∴[[User talk:Evil Monkey|Hello]] 10:53, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', unnecessary specialization. A spoiler is a spoiler. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 11:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per the above. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 11:02, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Presumably it is only used in the Whedonverse articles, so it should be obvious what is likely to be spoiled, yes? Redundant with the usual spoiler notice. --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 02:37, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' and find a way to add this to the speedy deletion guidelines. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:28, 2005 Jun 20 (UTC)
====[[Template:Ship table]] and associated sub-tables====
This ship infobox is a cute piece of engineering. Through the use of templates, meta-templates, and sub-templates, it is able to show only those parts of the infobox that are appropriate for the ship in question. For example, if "range" is an inapplicable parameter for describing the ship, the "range" infobox entry won't be there. Unfortunately, the infobox is also an abomination on the face of the Earth. By moving content out of article space and into templates such as [[Template:Ship displacement box Pyro class ammunition ship]], it makes it much harder to change the infobox. Adding information is also harder: I tried adding information to the infobox for [[USS Nitro (AE-2)]], but could only produce redlinks such as [[Template:Ship speed box 16 knots]]. It also runs afoul of some of the problems mentioned at [[Wikipedia:Avoid using meta-templates]]. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 21:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. I corrected the faults with templates that were raised on my user page almost a month ago. Carnildo complained that some of the templates I used were not for boilerplate information shared between articles, but for content from a single article. In a number of cases that charge was true. I therefore altered the articles in question and deleted the templates concerned. ''All'' of the templates associated with that ship table template are now either currently referenced in multiple articles as boilerplate text, or potentially will be when articles for the rest of the ship class concerned are written. There is a full set of instructions on how to use the templates at the Wikiproject for ships. I had them in prototype form for over a month before deploying them precisely so that concerns over what rows should be in the table could be addressed. The problems in avoiding the use of meta-templates are a concern, but I would say that they are not a big enough concern to delete all the tables. <br><br>In summary, the templates are used for boilerplate text that is shared between articles. The templates for the table markup itself are an attempt to bring uniformity, flexibility and ease of maintenance to the arena of ship tables. The templates for the content are meant to be shared between multiple members of the same class of warship, reducing maintenance for those articles and increasing content richness. [[User:David Newton|David Newton]] 02:14, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - I will admit that editing the information in for this templete is at times develishly hard to do, if it isn't outright impossible; however, the ship table is by far the asthetically pleasing table I have seen, and it does present a wealth of usefull material related to the ships. Deleting this templete and its associated templetes would be a very bad move. Besides, I don't see that you have presented any alternatives to this so-called "...abomination on the face of the Earth"; If you are going to demand it be deleted you should also propose an alternative to the current version. [[User:TomStar81|TomStar81]] 03:09, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**How about a more traditional infobox, similar to [[Template:Battlebox]] and [[Template:Tank]], or if you want something complex, how about a system similar to the infobox template set [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports]] uses? --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 03:51, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::If I could have made the markup and syntax more simple and retained the functionality I would have done. One thing that does seem to confuse some people is the name of the variables. That may well need looking at to improve the functionality. The complicated bit with this table is the optional rows. I'm trying to get a way of doing it that both allows specification of optional rows and keeps the rows in the same order for consistency. With this set of templates we're bumping right up against the limits of the functionality of the Wikipedia templates system. If the extended template syntax could be implemented, allowing optional rows to be specified for templates, then it would make things a good deal easier. [[User:David Newton|David Newton]] 12:12, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Ouch!'''. Subst, delete, and restart from scratch. Try to avoid meta-templates, obfuscative subtemplating, and templates masquerading as article text. Three strikes, you're out. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:25, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Move-To-Memory-Alpha]]====
It says that some articles "do not belong in the Wikipedia" and that their "proper ___location" is in another Wiki instead. Memory Alpha [http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Memory_Alpha:Why_Memory_Alpha_doesn't_use_the_GFDL does not use the GFDL], so I don't believe articles can be moved to it. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 19:26, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', non-GFDL wiki. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:02, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. non-SisterProject. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Fuzzy actor]]====
This template was meant to be a link to [http://voices.fuzzy.com/ voices.fuzzy.com] much like the IMDB template links to imdb.com. Fuzzy.com is a database of voice actor credits, but it's notoriously unreliable; anyone can submit new credits to be visible immediately, but no one can delete wrong information, and it's not maintained. As a result it's got (for example) [http://voices.fuzzy.com/actor.idc?actor_id=10093 six voice credits for George Bush]. I don't trust the information in this database, and I don't think it should be linked from Wikipedia. - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 18:50, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. For all the reasons listed by [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 05:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I created it, was unware of the reliability. Still think we need a standarized template for voice actors, if voicechasers.com is anymore reliable, or any other db. [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>¿</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 03:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Recycling]]====
Half red-links, and at least one thing on it is a redirect to [[Recycling]]. First get your series of articles, then you can have your article series box. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:16, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Encourages further development and no real harm. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 16:14, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', erroneous argument for deletion. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 18:47, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Just because some of the links are red does not necessarily mean you should get rid of the entire template. You can just remove those links. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 04:40, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorify''', this is not a good series box as it has no meaningful ordering other than alphabetical. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:15, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' and replace with a category. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 00:26, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Personal]]====
{{personal}}
Our policy against personal attacks applies to all of Wikipedia, not just to a few talk pages with this template. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
:In light of this objection, [[User:Lifeisunfair]] proposed a change, and I implemented it. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* Delete. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Note:''' This template is also being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Personal attacks on controversial pages]]. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 01:59, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' - considering I have only just created it and we are still discussing it on [[WP:BP]], [[WP:AN]] and [[WP:NPA]], I'm a bit suprised that this is up for deletion. I could move it to a subpage of [[WP:NPA]] for the time being, however. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Further: We don't currently have a blocking rule that immediately blocks personal attacks, nor should we. People must get a warning. However, on certain controversial articles, such as Jihad, there are editors who create sock puppets and edit anonymously - all done on purpose. They target these articles and therefore I feel that a specific warning message (this template) should be added to the article, noting that we won't accept personal attacks in the article. This would be the warning that editors are given, and will mean that they have no excuse for making personal attacks - excuses like "But you never warned me!". - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I think it could help to calm down some of the more volatile talk pages. On the Islam-related ones recently, there has been some really unpleasant stuff, more so than usual. Anything that might help is welcome, in my view. Admins could be advised to use it sparingly. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 02:27, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' or '''userfy''' if the proposal goes nowhere. [[User:BrokenSegue|This link is]] [[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]] 03:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but revise to something along the lines of [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|this]]. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 03:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Done. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. The person posting the template has no right to threaten someone with being blocked. People know the policy and administrators know when to block. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:22, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
**Good point. However, this is part of the policy change. We could make it clear in the [[Wikipedia:No personal attack]] policy that only admins can place this on the article's talk page when a clear majority of admins agree that this is the only way of proceding forward with discussion. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:48, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Explicit reminder, especially to newcomers, to cool their jets when they head straight to topics that interest/obsess them particularly. --[[User:Calton|Calton]] | [[User talk:Calton|Talk]] 04:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Though I would like to see the template in a smaller form. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 11:18, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
**The template ''was'' in a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Personal&oldid=15324298 smaller form] until [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] addressed [[User:Raul654|Raul654]]'s criticism by implementing my [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|proposed]] modifications. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*I don't really see the point of it, but at any rate it should be reworded as it's far too long. '' It has been decided that this message shall serve as irrefutable notification'' is too bureaucratese. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:00, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
**It's only fair to point out that I'm responsible for the sentence in question, which is among the additions that I [[Template_talk:Personal#Proposed_changes|proposed]] (and [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] promptly implemented) in response to this discussion. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Personal&oldid=15324298 The previous version] was significantly shorter, but it generated the complaint of ambiguity on which [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] based his deletion proposal. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:23, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**While I didn't actually make that up, I agree with that sentence you quote because this is the purpose of this template: to give fair warning to all anonymous editors and sock puppets (!) that they will be blocked for personal attacks. Ever tried to warn suspected sock puppets? They ''always'' say they aren't sock puppets, even if they are. With a global warning on the contentious talk page, no warning needs to be given to them explicitly. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep, but copy-edit'''. There are too many Talk pages on the Wikipedia that need this reminder to be [[Wikipedia:Civility|civil]]. Many of the articles where there is a dispute over the title of the article, for example. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:52, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:Also, '''this is a policy decision''', so it really shouldn't be handled here at TFD. [[User:Ta bu shi da yu]] should create a Wikipedia policy proposal for using the template, or find some other Wikipedia forum for discussing the use of the template and then should see if there is any consensus for its use. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' because it still suggests personal attacks are more acceptable some places than others. Support the underlying move towards blocking for personal attacks, however. [[User:Snowspinner|Snowspinner]] 15:15, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
**With all due respect to Snowspinner, I disagree. This template doesn't do anything of the sort, especially with the bolded warning on the bottom. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This is a "symptom" template, not a "disease" template. :) When would it be appropriate to use this template instead of one of the more focused [[:Template:POV]], [[:Template:TitleDisputed]], or just a simple comment "No personal attacks, please"? Ditto Snowspinner's and Superm401's comments too: this template feels like a weapon. And if only admins can use it... can't admins protect pages and/or archive or delete insults anyway? --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 17:05, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**No, I'm afraid that NPOV and TitleDisputed templates would not be sufficient. Neither of those talk about personal attacks, and neither of those give a specific warning that you could be blocked on site for making personal attacks. As for using it as a weapon: that is something that the policy changes will address and prevent. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 02:58, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I can't see any harm, and if it reminds just one User not to engage in personal attacks, it will have come out on the credit side. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">Μελ Ετητης</font>)]] 18:36, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete.''' It wastes a lot of space on the page, and I don't think it's going to deter anyone from personal attacks. And I don't like the language it uses. Maybe it's ''not'' difficult for me to write neutrally about this topic? What does "irrefutable notification" mean? Does it give carte blanche for an administrator to block any user whose tone he doesn't like? What's the difference in how an article is handled when it does or doesn't have this template on it? Don't the statements in this template apply to EVERY article? If personal attacks are "prohibited throughout the Wikipedia site," then why post a warning like this in the first place? - [[User:Brian Kendig|Brian Kendig]] 18:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Did you read [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]]'s remarks? This template is for use in conjunction with a newly proposed policy (which has not yet taken effect). In my opinion, this deletion vote is premature. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:24, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
** It hardly wastes any space on the top of the page, so can't agree with that argument. As for whether it is not difficult to write neutrally about a particular topic: well, all I can say is that the Personal template is not going to be used on those articles! However, if you are implying that it is easy to write neutrally about ''any'' topic, I would ''love'' to see you editing [[Jihad]], because that page sure as heck needs all the help it can get! I'd like to note, for the record, that I wish I didn't ''have'' to create this template and that we could all just get along, but after being on Wikipedia for quite some time now and having viewed some tinderbox articles, I know that is just not the case. - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 03:03, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' but clarify policy. -- [[User:Nyenyec|nyenyec]] [[User talk:Nyenyec|☎]] 01:00, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' a very bad idea [[User:Grue|<font style="background: black" face="Courier" color=#FFFFFF>''' Grue '''</font>]] 09:31, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep or Modify'''. I don't know how, but I also think it seems a little like personal attacks are more allowed on some pages than others. It ''is'' a good idea though, reminding some wikipedians about the Rule of No Personal Attacks. // [[User:Mathew|'''M'''a'''th'''e'''w''']] 10:05, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:(disambiguation)]]====
This is a near-duplicate of the existing and widely used [[:Template:disambig]]. I don't know why it was created. I've removed all references to it. [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:This template ''is intended to be a '''''near''''' duplicate''. It <u>excludes</u> the instruction to go and fix the linking article. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|✉]] 02:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:And why should it? [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
::See [[fish]] and [[fish (disambiguation)]]. Intentional linking to (disambiguation) pages does happen - such as [[Hex (Discworld)]] linking to [[bug (disambiguation)]]. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|✉]] 04:28, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' It excludes the instruction to go and fix the linking article. It's intended to go on ''Topic (disambiguation)'' pages, where ''Topic'' includes a link to ''Topic (disambiguation)''. No-one's ever going to accidentally link to those pages. [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|✉]] 01:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* Delete. [[User:Raul654|→Raul654]] 01:53, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', redundant, silly name. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 01:57, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Unnecessary with [[Template:disambig]]. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', don't make template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:01, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' I like the picture and the wording of this. Why not merge it with [[:Template:disambig]]. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:48, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
**Comment: see [[Template talk:disambig]]. [[User:Susvolans|Susvolans]] [[User talk:Susvolans|(pigs can fly)]] 17:09, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep or Merge''' Could this template be merged with [[:Template:disambig]] so that there ais a paramete that controls whethr or not to include the request to fix links? Otherwis many people won't ralize tht both templates exist, adn mys use the wrong one. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] 21:51, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:WiktionaryWord]]====
This is an exact duplicate of the existing and widely used [[:Template:wiktionarypar]]. I don't know why it was created. I've removed all references to it. [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Maybe it was created because there's no documentation pointing to [[:Template:wiktionarypar]]? Fix the problem, not the solution!
::Both are fixed now. --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:42, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' [[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 01:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. No reason for duplicate. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:24, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' [[User:Josh Parris|Josh Parris]] [[User_talk:Josh Parris|✉]] 04:29, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' or perhaps '''redirect'''. I understand why someone might want to call this template WiktionaryWord. Does anyone know what the "par" in Wiktionarypar is meant to indicate? It's not really what I would have thought of when looking for a template like this. [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 04:54, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
** '''par'''ameter. I agree the nomenclature sucks somewhat but unfortunately this problem got lost in the noise over meta-templates. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 14:58, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', don't make template forks. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:01, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''': redundant. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 14:58, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
===June 16===
====[[Template:Googletest]]====
Extremely blatant template that was spammed all over VFD and that reads 'this articles should be googletested'. It completely destroys legibility of VFD, and googletest isn't an accepted standard anyway. I've temporarily blanked the template to make VFD more legible, you can view its likeness on its talk page. '''Delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 16:13, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' This template should be ambushed at the pass. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 16:22, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I despair at the sight of the dreaded Google test. The last thing we need is an official-looking template encouraging everyone to use it. — [[User:Trilobite|Trilobite]] ([[User_talk:Trilobite|Talk]]) 16:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Kill Google! [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' cluttering up VfD page. —[[User:Wahoofive|Wahoofive]] ([[User talk:Wahoofive|talk]]) 17:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Google tests are useful in many situations, but using it as sole reasoning for a VfD vote is not a good thing, and using an official-looking template to perform it is even worse. It's been <tt>subst:</tt>ed in, so if you want to remove the boxes, it'll have to be done manually. <font color=#00A86B>[[User:Android79|<small>A</small>и<small>D</small>я<small>01D</small>]]</font><font color=#B87333>[[User talk:Android79|<small>TALK</small>]]</font><font color=#0047AB>[[Special:Emailuser/Android79|<small>EMAIL</small>]]</font> 17:58, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Painfully counterproductive! —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:01, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. ASAP --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:09, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Rewrite?'''. That template needs to go away, but I am wondering if there might be constructive uses for a template embodying the google test concept, since some people will inevitable continue to use the test regardless of whether it is generally accepted. I would suggest something like:
*:<nowiki>[[Wikipedia:Google test|Google test]]: A search on ''{{{query}}}'' produces {{{number}}} results [http://www.google.com?q={{{query}}}].</nowiki>
*:[[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 19:25, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Rewrite''' to something less voluminous. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:32, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete [[googol]] times'''. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 20:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''''. Manual google tests can always be done. This is just a waste of space. Furthermore, I think people do enough google tests without encouragement. What the web contains is just as arbitrary as what Wikipedia has, and has nothing to do with what a good encyclopeid should contain. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:20, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Manual google tests are better than automated ones anyway, since simply googling the article's name is rarely a reliable way of using an already only vaguely reliable test. Most more effective google tests use a combination of words from the article - something unlikely to be automatable. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:14, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Crank]]====
Probably speedy delete candidate, but I am still listing it here. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I agree, not a speedy. But personal attacks, unwiki, self-referential. What more do you want? [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
** Personal attacks? Noting that a certain idea is generally rejected hardly constitutes a "personal attack" as such. Certainly, proponents of such an idea may be offended by stating that, but it's true nonetheless--and important. As for as "unwiki" and "self-referential", well, what the hell are you talking about? [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' What's wrong with it? If a certain topic discussed in WP is at odds with what is generally held to be true by the vast majority of experts in its particular field, it should be marked as such. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 18:14, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**If it is such, then it should either be explained in the text or listed for deletion, circumstances depending. In short, we should be able to ''tell'' what this template says, without the template itself. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 18:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
***"If it is such, then it should either be explained in the text"--yes, and that's what the template does--explain up front that the idea isn't widely accepted. That it lacks widespread acceptance does not in and of itself make it unworthy for inclusion. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
****No, what this template does is effectively allow a fork of an article, with a disclaimer at the bottom. The "crankiness" of the article should be shown by writing, not by a generic boilerplate. It is wonderfully unobtrusive. So unobtrusive that you won't notice it. And no, I don't want you to make it big and orange. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 21:07, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Will only lead to arguments and edit wars about its inclusion, rather than reaching NPOV/consensus form of article. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:12, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**I fail to see how that constitutes a valid reason for deleting it.[[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 21:02, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', if it's complete nonsense or rubbish, it should be deleted. No need to template tag such a thing. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:30, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
**That a certain idea or proposition is a crank does not mean it is "complete nonsense or rubbish". It simply means that, as I stated above, it "is at odds with what is generally held to be true by the vast majority of experts in its particular field". There's a big difference. [[User:Kmweber|Kurt Weber]] 20:56, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This is just an excuse for non-NPOV. The use of a template at the top lends an unnecessary official air. If a view is considered incorrect by experts, the article should explain that fact, and all details about it. For example, it should say when the perspective began to be viewed as invalid. It must mention any reasons this is thought to be true. It should mention any rebuttals to the claim it is flawed. It shouldn't just have a boilerplate notice that condemns the idea before the article begins. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:28, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Unhelpful, and huge potential for edit-warring. [[User:Mel Etitis|Mel Etitis]] ([[User talk:Mel Etitis|<font color="green">Μελ Ετητης</font>)]] 18:41, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Createdby]]====
A very, very unWiki template. Also unused. I was tempted to to try to speedy delete it, but I am nominating it here instead. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundant. Creation details are available via page history. Also, signing of a piece of work implies ownership. No one person has ownership of a WP article. --[[User:TheParanoidOne|TheParanoidOne]] 15:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' BlankVerse said it. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''', signing articles is against policy, hence: this template isn't needed. Inform creator. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:28, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Vanity. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:30, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. No useful or legitimate use. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 08:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', for the reasons cited above. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:30, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' for above reasons. [[User:Filiocht|Filiocht]] | [[User talk:Filiocht|Blarneyman]] 13:40, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy Delete''' This shouldn't be on here. It also sends a false message to newbies that you should sign your name in the article. And yes, please just look at the page history. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 14:38, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:1337]]====
This template serves no purpose. It was created by an anonymous user ([[Special:Contributions/69.221.65.186|69.221.65.186]]), and it remains unclear whether it refers to [[Leet]] or an event in [[1337]]. <font color="#3D9140">[[User:Sango123|Sango]]</font><font color="#215E21">[[User talk:Sango123|123]]</font> 15:20, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' as [[WP:PN|Patent nonsense]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:31, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy''' nonsense. [[User:smoddy|smoddy]] 17:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''De1337'''. I suppose this means we'll have to delete the "1337 haxor lol!!!1!1" template also. --[[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]] 18:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete''', '''speedified'''. -[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 18:32, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Has no purpose as a template or [[WP:BAP|Wikipedia award]]. [[User:Bratsche|<font color="#006666">Bratsche</font>]]<sup>[[User_talk:Bratsche|<font color="#FF6600">talk</font>]] [[WP:5P|<font color="#333333">5 pillars</font>]]</sup> 02:15, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Copyrightproblem]]====
Somebody apparently wanted to create the ultimate minimalist version of {{tl|copyvio}}, including not having a category. Unused. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:52, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', copyright violations should be marked with big screaming boxes, not meekly whispered about. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 11:57, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. The template creates <nowiki>"[[Internal Link]] from [External Link]"</nowiki>. If I had to guess, it's not meant to be used on copyvio pages, but rather substed into their entries on [[WP:CP]]. Of course, I don't see how it actually saves any appreciable amount of effort.... --[[User:TenOfAllTrades|TenOfAllTrades]]([[User_talk:TenOfAllTrades|talk]]) 12:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*If this thing is suppose to be used the write entries on [[WP:CP]] then '''Userfy''' this. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 17:50, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*I was doing a lot of copyvio work, and it did make it a bit easier for me, but not enough to matter, so (as, apparently, the only user) I don't care one way or another. --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|∇∆∇∆]] 18:41, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:I've been doing some rather random checking of the Template namespace recently. Besides the [[WP:PN|Patent nonsense]] that can be speedy deleted, and the unused templates that can be TFD'd, I am finding quite a few templates that could be very useful for other editors if they had some documentation on their Talk page or elsewhere. If you are still using this template, I will change my delete vote. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:34, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*::Is there a place here for publicizing Possibly Useful Templates? Anyway, I've not been using it recently, but only because I've not been on new page patrol. (well, also because I forgot I had created it.) --[[User:Jpgordon|jpgordon]][[User talk:Jpgordon|∇∆∇∆]] 21:16, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:::The only one I know of is [[User:CesarB/Special effects templates|mine]]. If anyone knows of others, tell me. --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 21:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**The most suitable place for advertising a template would probably be the [[WP:VP|village pump]]. CesarB -- I find your list rather useful, and would like to ask if you would consider putting it in Wikispace along with [[Wikipedia:Template messages]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 01:21, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
***Besides adding a template to [[Wikipedia:Template messages]] and publicizing the template in those places where they would be found useful ([[WP:CP]] for this template), I think that most templates should get some sort of documentation of the template's uses and parameters on the template's Talk page, although probably less than 5% currently have any such documentation. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 04:35, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Crap]] and associated [[:Category:Crap]]====
Unnecessarily confrontative and redundant with [[Template:cleanup-rewrite]] and/or [[Template:Attention]]. I've put a pointer on [[WP:CFD]] to discuss [[:Category:Crap]] here. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 10:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
'''''Warning''''': I have commented on a number of the keep votes. [[User:Thodin]] has proceeded to move my comments to other votes. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:32, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Confrontive, uncivil, not needed. Note also that [[User:Thodin]] has removed the <nowiki>{{cfd}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{tfd}}</nowiki> tags citing them to be "vandalism". [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 10:54, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'' Why...
** 1. Funny
** 2. You can't vfd everything.
** 3. It's specific that an article needs serious rewriting--not just needs attention, but needs it badly.
** 4. Sometimes a person will be the first to create a topic and that first creation will be bad. However, the topic must say but be completely rewritten.
** 5. Another wiki already uses it to useful effect: http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/
** 6. This tag is far articles with more serious problems than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_articles_needing_rewrite Articles tagged as crap are on the verge of being deleted because they are so bad and need immediate rewrites. This is opposed to the ones with the cleanup-rewrite tag that can sit in wikipedia for eons without anyone rewriting them but while also escaping deletion. Basically those with cleanup-rewrite should not get this tag. This tag is for ones that are on the verge of deletion.
** 7. Too many articles get tagged as "nonsense" when they're not nonsense, they just are in desperate need of a rewrite.
** 8. Only things for speedy deletion have gotten this tag so far. Things tagged with cleanup-rewrite get kept and are not about to be speedied.
** 9. People like [[User:Cryptic]] who like to mark pages for deletion instead of reading discussion. Actions like his border on vandalism because he didn't read talk pages first.
** 10. This tag has helped reform many pages that have been about to be speedied, but once they rewrote it the pages were fine. LIST: [[General_Council_of_the_Valleys]],
** 11. User Crptic has been going around spamming pages with delete links all day and night. See his contribs.
:[[User:Thodin|Thodin]] 10:58, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::What about [[Template:Cleanup-importance]]? Some editors including me use that tag. It is less confrontational than [[Template:Crap]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 11:04, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Your definitions of "vandalism" and "spamming" are utterly bizarre, [[User:Thodin|Thodin]]. And contrary to the belief implied by one of your edit summaries, one needn't be an admin to propose a template's deletion. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:*The fact that it's used on Encyclopædia Dramatica doesn't mean it works here. It works on æ because æ is a humor site. (And not a [[Wikimedia]] wiki, by the way.) WP is an encyclopedia, and "crap", in this sense, is unencyclopedic. '''Delete'''. I was rather amused to see it here, though. [[User:SwissCelt|SwissCelt]] 13:37, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Redundant. Could be used in ways that break the policies of [[Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers|not biting the newcomers]], [[Wikipedia:Wikiquette|Wikiquette]], [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|no personal attacks]], and [[Wikipedia:Civility|civility]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 11:00, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*Being the person who reformed [[General Council of the Valleys]], I can assure you that the "this article is crap" had nothing to do with it; I found that page going through recent-changes (patrolling for articles to mark as speedy-delete, in fact). It's surplus; I've only noticed it on articles already tagged as speedy - and, for that matter, invariably ones which are about to be deleted. I can think of no niche this template fills that isn't already covered,so implementing it will lead to further confusion and splitting of effort. And, yeah, there's the stylistic apsects. "This article needs rewriting" is a hell of a lot more polite than "this article is crap", and ''conveys the same information''. Please, '''delete''' this... [[User:Shimgray|Shimgray]] 12:37, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) (forgot to sign!)
*'''Delete'''. While we definitely need cleanup templates, calling articles "crap" is not the way to go about it. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] 11:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Calling articles crap is needlessly confrontational and breaks loads of civility guidelines. Also, we've already got cleanup-rewrite and attention, which should work just as fine. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm]]|[[User talk:MacGyverMagic|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 11:26, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This template is redundant, offensive and patently absurd. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:38, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Calling an article "nonsense" is more offensive than calling it crap. At least with "crap" you can say it's poorly written but the subject matter is good, but "nonsense" is also an insult to the subject matter. Calling articles "nonsense" happens constantly, whether or not the articles are nonsense at all. [[User:Hhamadraad|Hhamadraad]] 11:55, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**<small>User's second edit. The first was to create a userpage. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>
*'''Keep''' Just too many people deleting pages instead of editing them [[User:Alapretes|Alapretes]] 12:05, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**<small>User's second edit. The first was to create a userpage. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>
*'''Keep''' It was put up without any discussion. [[User:ArchmageGwidon|ArchmageGwidon]] 12:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**<small>User's second, third and fourth edits. The first was to create a userpage. Also removed my comments on the last two keep votes. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:15, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>
:This IS the discussion. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:39, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Offenensive. It does have a purpose, but this is not the way to make a point. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 12:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This template is [[crap]], just like much of the parody wiki, http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/, that it came from (so I can see why it's used there). [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' The worst insult is for someone to mark something you wrote for deletion. I'd rather be called crap. [[User:MiddaSantaClaus|MiddaSantaClaus]] 12:27, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**<small> Account was created 8 minutes before casting this vote. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 12:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC) </small>
*'''Delete''', we have perfectly good cleanup tags that don't go out of their way to insult the content. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 12:28, 2005 Jun 16 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Not needed; just list it for cleanup and the [[Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce]] will queue it. [[User:Linuxbeak|Linuxbeak]] | [[User_talk:Linuxbeak|Talk]] | [[User:Linuxbeak/Desk|Desk]] 12:29, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Too redundant with above mentioned templates/categories. I would also try and keep the language cleaner on an encyclopedia. --[[User:Michael180|michael180]] 13:23, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Gratuitously uncivil and insulting, although I agree "nonsense" is often used the same way. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 13:37, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Labelling an article "crap", whilst it may be true in some cases, is certainly not the kind of definition I'd expect to see on an article, let alone as a standard template on Wikipedia. --[[User:Dave2|Dave2]] 14:36, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' with the same extreme prejudice as might lead someone to apply this to an article. --[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 15:05, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', unnecessary and confrontational. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 17:36, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' both template and category. --[[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]] 18:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''<font color=red><big>SUPER DELETE</big></font>''' - Offensive and redundant. [[User:Andros 1337|Andros 1337]] 21:11, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Obvious delete''' - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 21:47, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - simply because of the use of [[sockpuppets]]. [[User:Bastique|<font size=+1>{{unicode|ℬ}}</font>astique]]<font style="color:#FF72E3;">{{unicode|▼}}</font>[[User talk:Bastique|'''<sup>talk</sup>''']] 03:03, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - redundant, needlessly vulgar, confrontational. Also, encourages complete rewrite when this is rarely necessary. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:35, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' - add to BJAODN regardless of the result. -- [[User:Kizor|Kizor]] 11:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Do not BJAODN. POV template, and sockpuppet limit reached (apologies to [[User:RickK|RickK]]). --[[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 00:41, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' because it honors me and my template-creating artistry. --[[User:Aussieintn|Aussieintn]] 15:24, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Insulting and against Wikipedia spirit. Whoever did this deserves to read the rules until his eyes bleed. [[User:Sarg|Sarg]] 15:33, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===June 15===
====[[Template:AidsNPOV]]====
No idea what the purpose of this template is, but an AIDS denialist is using it on AIDS-related pages. Completely redundant with [[Template:POV]]. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 16:26, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 18:18, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': The point is that the talk page link points directly to [[Talk:AIDS/NPOV dispute]]. --[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 16:41, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Oh, I missed that. I don't think that linking to a specific talk page is justification for an entirely new template. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 18:18, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*As per the comment, this version is needed for the current discussion occuring on a subpage instead of the talk page. It should be '''Subst:'d''' and then '''deleted'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 18:25, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*Redundant. '''subst & delete'''. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 20:59, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*redundant. '''Delete''' -[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 02:44, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst''' and '''delete'''. The template is redundant and poorly named. ([[AIDS]] is an acronym.)
*'''Delete'''. Not needed. [[User:Linuxbeak|Linuxbeak]] | [[User_talk:Linuxbeak|Talk]] | [[User:Linuxbeak/Desk|Desk]] 12:30, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Needlessly specific. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:36, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:SCD]]====
Basically, it's a disclaimer stating that some items in the category it's on may in fact be miscategorized. That sounds trivially obvious for just about any category; and looking at whatlinkshere I'd say most of the ~25 cats it's on should be renamed which would fix the problem. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 14:46, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''del''', this vote may not reclassified --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:09, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Although I don't really like the wording, I know what the template is trying to do. There have been a number of HUGE edit wars over how some people have been classified (such as, is [[Grace Kelly]] a [[Gay icon]]), so this template is an attempt to defuse those arguments. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 18:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - major issues have been solved by this template (among others: continuous renaming votes for ~25 categories relating to ''people'' - as if ''renaming'' were the "simple" solution for those categories). See [[wikipedia:categorization of people]] (and: [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]]) for how to use the template & apply it correctly. Further: [[wikipedia:categorization of people]] went through ample procedure before acceptance, and the "SCD" template is part of that guideline, so it is a bit contradictory to cripple the guideline by removing the template. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 21:11, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Okay, in that case it should be edited to resemble {{tl|disputed}}, and state something like "the listing of some topics in this category is '''disputed'''". But actually, the dispute is in the articles, not the category, so I'd still prefer discussing it there. I see no real consensus on the talk page you mention; this was just inserted by a few people, but it's hardly official. Disputes should be resolved, not covered under a disclaimer. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:11, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
***Dear Radiant, a little less instruction creep would be welcome: not all templates that make wikipedia run smoothly should resemble one another. The '''is disputed''' formulation was tried for the SCD template when we worked with several people on [[wikipedia:categorization of people]], and was rejected for reasons still available FYR at [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]] (shortcut to the relevant section: [[Wikipedia_talk:Categorization_of_people#The_.22Subjective_Category_Disclaimer.22]]). I don't think I need to discuss this with someone who didn't read that guideline and the adjoining talk page. Feel free to take part in the discussion on that talk page if you have new ideas that would be able to solve issues even smoother. My only problem with the SCD template presently is that its name is maybe not completely in line with its present content. But I nearly didn't dare to speak my opinion on that matter, for fear this would lead to more complication instead of simplification (and because I don't have a better name ready). --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 08:15, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
****That was not intended as instruction creep, but simply based on the fact that the template's wording does not at all make it clear what it's for. Unless everyone who sees the template reads the discussion you've mentioned first, they are not necessarily going to understand it. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:28, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
*****Presumably none of the templates labeled on this page as "instruction creep" were '''''intended''''' as instruction creep by the original author(s). So don't take it too bad if I call uniformising all templates to about the same template as the real ''creepy'' instruction creep. Further the template, which I reprint here with your permission, has only '''one''' link, which is to the ''categorization of people'' guideline, which guideline states in the intro that the SCD template is explained ''in short'' on the same page and ''in detail'' on the talk page (with clickable link to that talk page). So are you really serious that you listed that template on TfD '''''before clicking that link'''''? Or without reading [[template talk:SCD]], which '''only''' contains a link to that same talk page? If I wouldn't understand what the template was about that would be the first things I'd do, as would, I suppose, most wikipedians. So I don't think you're really making a point here. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 19:57, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::{|-
|<div class="boilerplate metadata plainlinks" id="tfd" style="background-color: transparent; padding: 0; font-size:xx-small; color:#000000; text-align: center; border-bottom:1px solid #AAAAAA;">‹The [[Wikipedia:Template messages|template]] below has been proposed for deletion. See [{{SERVER}}/wiki/{{SITENAME}}:Templates_for_deletion#Template:{{{1}}} templates for deletion] to comment and vote.›</div >
<!-- Please reference to this template like this: {{tfd|Toiletpaper}} or {{tfd|City of Guam}}. Mind capitalisation, and do not prefix with "Template:". This allows for the link to direct directly to the correct section of the TFD page. -->
<nowiki><h2>''Disclaimer''</h2></nowiki>
This category may label persons incorrectly. See [[Wikipedia:Categorization of people]] for advice on how to apply categorization to articles relating to people.
|}
***By analogy, your template is simply stating ''"This template is [[confusing]]. Click [[here]] to find out what it actually means."'' That is not useful. A template should be worded so that it's ''obvious'' what it means. Of course I read the discussion, but that doesn't change the fact that the template itself is not in good shape. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 22:03, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
****It's not ''my'' template. Your comparison/analogy is bogus. "This category may label persons incorrectly." is as '''obvious''' to me as "The template below has been proposed for deletion." I said ''if'' (and only ''if'') some wikipedian gets confused nonetheless (as apparently you did) he knows were to find the answers: ''Categorization of people'' in the first instance, ''TfD'' in the second. One of the chief intentions of the SCD template ''was'' to draw attention to the ''categorization of people'' guideline, so if the first sentence works intriguing in that sense, that's fine by me. If it is your opinion that SCD is not "in good shape" than (again) please raise the issue at [[wikipedia talk:categorization of people]] and/or [[template talk:SCD]] or wherever you think fit, but then we're no longer in a deletion scheme, and it should be only fair you withdrew SCD from this ''deletion'' list (well, I don't want to push that, voting time is nearly over). Recurring to one of your above comments: no, the SCD template was created as part of a strategy to solve endless '''C'''fD votes, not about individual category assignations to wikipedia articles. Some categories became acceptable because of the disclaimer. Note that wikipedia uses several disclaimers - for example, articles describing diseases are only possible because there is a medical disclaimer, so, no, your generalisation that disclaimers are used "to cover up disputes" is not true in general, neither is it applicable to this particular disclaimer. Before attempting to rewrite SCD I would however advise to have a look at these pages, which could give some insights in when SCD proved/proves to be useful (and ''why''):
::::# [[:category:atheists]] (after the category definition had been reworked, SCD was redundant)
::::# [[:category:terrorists]] and [[:category talk:terrorists]] (CfD listings continued, after the category definition had been cleaned up - I'd like to remove the ugly ''preliminary note'' of that category, and only keep SCD or something similar)
::::# etc... see what's going on in [[:category:people|people (sub)categories]] --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 00:03, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep''', but '''rewrite'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:34, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:It icon]]====
Another unused template of more recent vintage. Uses this image: [[Image:Symbole-it.png|30px|Link to an Italian language website]] to symbolize a link to an Italian language website. The template was originally used on the French Wikipedia. On the English-language Wikipedia there are going to be a large percentage of the readers who won't make the connection between it=Italian, so it will be much better to explicitly state that the link is in Italian. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 13:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 13:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', but move the template to a different name and replace the current icon with one that's less ambiguous to readers of the English language.
:I recommend the Italian flag: [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.png|30px|Link to an Italian language website]] —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Many of the same people who won't associate "it" with Italy will probably not recognize the Italian [[tricolor]] either (a large percentage of the world away from Europe). It's better just to say something like "this link is in [[Italian language|Italian]]". [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 15:50, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:::I wouldn't advocate displaying a flag in lieu of such a statement, but I believe that it would be a logical supplement. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:04, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*Not actually in use, '''delete'''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 15:02, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete'''.unused --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:07, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. As stated, saying it outright is better. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:38, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Itp]]====
This template has been around for almost a year and it appears to have never been used. It also violates self-references. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 13:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 13:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', no longer needed.--[[User:Patrick|Patrick]] 14:00, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:note: [[User:Patrick|Patrick]] is the creator of [[Template:Itp]] [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]]
===June 14 ===
==== [[Template:And]] ====
A template that takes seven characters to create six characters. <nowiki>{{and}} creates &bull;</nowiki> (•). Only used on a single User subpage. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 17:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete.''' [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 17:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''- useless. Don't replace unicode with templates. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 19:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Entirely illogical. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:23, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Pointless (and wasteful) use of template functionality. Also non-intuitive template name. --[[User:TheParanoidOne|TheParanoidOne]] 05:19, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
{{and}} '''Delete''' I wish I could at least hear the reasoning behind this one. I would have personally made a macro on my keyb. (sorry had to see how much of a difference it was compared to a wiki asterisk.) [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>¿</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 09:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Now look what a mess we've made of [[User:Ilya/AG]] ! [[User:Ashibaka|Ashibaka]] ([[User talk:Ashibaka|tock]]) 15:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:Aww, come on, you guys are so mean! Don't put the tfd notice if the template is so tiny! :P -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 20:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*::I thought about that before I added the {{tl|tfd}} template, but since [[User:Ilya]] seems to have "left the building", and the template was only used on one page, I decided to add the tfd template anyway. Beside, I wanted to see what a really [[FUBAR]]ed Wikipedia page would look like. ;-). I have no objections if you want to remove the tfd template, or move it to [[Template talk:And]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 10:28, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Baleted!''' [[User:Linuxbeak|Linuxbeak]] | [[User_talk:Linuxbeak|Talk]] | [[User:Linuxbeak/Desk|Desk]] 12:31, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:User-c]] ====
Compact form of [[Template:User]]. Barely used, and I feel a bit too redundant. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:42, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' What is the harm? I just created this last week to have a compact version of [[Template:User]] where it is specificly intended to be compact by the author. It doesn't effect use of Template:User. It is barely used because it is new. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 16:25, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**See also for discussion: [[Template talk:User]] --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 16:36, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Barely used because it was recently created (6 Jun 2005). Since I had been thinking of creating a similar template, I'm glad to know one already exists. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 16:43, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''', good thinking. If certain people will use this, it should decrease the size of their signatures significantly. The design could use a tweak though. -- [[User:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 17:49, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''- if we have {{tl|User}} there's no harm in having this also. Smaller is sometimes better. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 20:02, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. A practical template that's likely to be utilized by many editors. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', I can understand that people want to reduce size of {{tl|user}}, but then the practical process is to be bold and edit it, not fork off a copy. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 07:06, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:The purpose of this template is to offer an alternative — ''not'' to replace the original. It's a matter of personal preference; some users will continue to opt for the larger template, while others will select (or switch to) this one. Why force everyone to use one or the other (or neither)? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 09:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Because having several templates for the same purpose is redundant, potentially confusing, and makes it harder to locate items using one of them. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 11:24, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:::The two templates ''do not'' serve precisely the same purpose; they generate differently sized signatures. When dealing with something as highly stylized as this, it's unreasonable to apply the same strict standards that (rightfully) govern article templates (which, in stark contrast to signatures, require uniformity). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::If you want to customize your signature, use the 'preferences' option to do so. You aren't actually supposed to use templates for signatures in the first place (it's a server load issue). [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 13:47, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:::::If that's the case, the original [[Template:User|User]] template should be deleted too. Otherwise, both templates should remain. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Userfy''' agree with Radiant. Do not see the point of having a redundant template, eventually we would have more than 2 or 3 and no one would really know the differences in either. I see there was a proposal on [[Template talk:User]], and there was opposition. Userfy the template for self and shared use. At some point in the future, maybe edit the original. [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>¿</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 08:33, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:It appears that the opposition was to the proposal that the existing template be shortened — ''not'' to the idea of creating a separate template. This is the very course of action suggested by [[User:Radiant!|Radiant]] (with whom you expressed agreement). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 10:28, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Well, if consensus opposes some kind of change, it then follows that one should stick with the status quo - not that one should fork off a private copy. This is generally frowned upon. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 11:24, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:::Firstly, I wouldn't call two users a "consensus." Secondly, these individuals didn't express opposition to the creation of a compact variation of the template; they merely didn't wish to lose the existing version.
:::As an analogy, suppose that there's opposition to the idea of covering "topic X" in an article about "topic Y." Does this preclude the creation of a new "topic X" article? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::If there is ''no'' consensus opposed to reducing the template, by all means discuss it further! Call for a vote on the layout of the template, if you must. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 13:47, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:::::There probably ''is'' a consensus opposed to reducing the template. That isn't what's being sought. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::And as to the latter, if there is (for instance) opposition in how an article on [[Jesus]] portrays him, it is bad form (and deletable) to fork off a new article that portrays him the way you want it. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 13:47, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
:::::My analogy (which I was applying very loosely) wasn't perfect, but yours is considerably less valid. Obviously, the type of editorial concern that you describe doesn't remotely pertain to these templates. The creation of the compact template is more analogous to the establishment of a separate [[Mary, the mother of Jesus|Mary]] article, instead of revamping the [[Jesus]] article to include numerous sections about the life of Mary. Again, this is a ''very'' loose analogy, because we're dealing with a disparate situation. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:39, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', obviously there is a demand. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 14:55, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete'''. Don't use for sigs, little other use and unused.--[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 15:56, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**To clarify, I didn't create it with the intention of using it in sigs. Its primary use is to refer to users in context, just like Template:User. In particular this is useful when replying to unsigned messages, or referring to anonymous IP accounts. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 18:12, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Good idea. — [[User:Knowledge Seeker|Knowledge Seeker]] [[User talk:Knowledge Seeker|দ]] 18:16, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It's not a consistency issue, because the template in question isn't for use in articles. Occasional brevity is nice. --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 17:44, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:esolangs]]====
Lists eight arbitrarily selected languages from [[:Category:Esoteric programming languages]]. That's pretty much redundant. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 11:31, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', given there is a reasonable explanation for why these languages were chosen. I would assume that it's becausee they're the most popular/famous. If the chosen languages were picked at random, then this is a '''Keep & rewrite''' vote. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 22:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Well, it is ''not'' given there is a reasonable explanation. It's just the individual opinion of one editor. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 07:10, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*:Another quick point: templates are navigational aids, and this template should hopefully make it easier for people to go through the most notable esoteric programming languages rather than sifting through every single esoteric language ever invented. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 22:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. They are definitely not arbitrarily selected. Read the caption of the box: ''Notable [[esoteric programming language]]s''. They are the canonical, best known and most popular languages. --[[User:ZeroOne|ZeroOne]] 22:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**That sounds like a very arbitrary criterion. Who decides that these the best known and most popular languages? Why aren't [[l33t]] and [[HQ9+]] on there, to give a random sample? Wikipedia has a strong precendent for deleting such things as [[List of best movies]] as they are inherently the POV of the author? [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 07:10, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I would rather have a link to a list of all the languages so I could find the ones I was interested in. There is no standard given for which are the most popular. As for a template, the [[:Category:Esoteric programming languages]] is more than adequate as a navigational aid. [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>¿</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 08:27, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Created in good faith, but clearly POV. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', much more useful for navigation than a category, content seems to have reasonable consensus. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 14:53, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Where did you get that idea? Only three editors have ever edited the templates, and one of those disagrees with the other two. That's no consensus. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:13, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Inherently POV: the only entries you'll get agreement on are [[INTERCAL]], the father of esoteric languages, and [[Malbolge]], the most tortured language. I know I'd remove [[False programming language|False]] and [[Shakespeare programming language|Shakespeare]], the first for not being significantly more esoteric than [[APL programming language|APL]], and the second for not being particularly well-known. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 18:44, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:*APL isn't technically an esoteric language since it was created for a purpose. [[User:Gkhan|gkhan]] 17:04, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' for reasons at [[WP:CLS#Article_series_boxes]]. POV. [[:Category:Esoteric programming languages]] is perfectly adequate. Highlighting particularly notable esoteric languages can be done in the article [[Esoteric programming language]]. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', for reasons already given. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 02:02, Jun 18, 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Car fuel]], [[Template:Fuel_Name]] and [[Template:Fuel_name]]====
Citing his disdain for "bickering," [[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] (the '''''admin''''' referred to in the deletion request below this one) recreated his [[Template:Carfuel|Carfuel]] template at [[Template:Car fuel]] and deleted the aforementioned ongoing debate/vote (which I then restored). He also created the [[Template:Fuel_Name|Fuel Name]] and [[Template:Fuel_name|Fuel name]] templates (the former containing "Gasoline" with an uppercase "G" and the latter containing "gasoline" with a lowercase "g"), and [[Talk:Gasoline#Okay_now.3F|has encouraged users to change these to "Petrol" and "petrol" (respectively), on a whim]], perhaps based upon [[Talk:Gasoline#Templates_to_the_rescue.21|whether the day is odd-numbered or even-numbered]]. Clearly, he is acting purely out of malice, as is evident in his repeated mockery of the dispute resolution process (including posting a [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=15149533#User:Ed_Poor phony request for arbitration against himself]) —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:14, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete all three''', the first is inappropriate use of templates, and I don't see any point in the last two. Jeez, there oughta be a way for us to speedy this, I think we've established in previous cases that main article text doesn't belong in templates. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 02:17, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - but only after we settle where the fuel article should go: [[gasoline]] or [[petrol]]. I'm surprised that Li'r would attribute to malice my motivation to streamline this process. (Can't take '''yes''' for an answer? ;-) [[User:Ed Poor|-- Uncle Ed]] [[user talk:Ed Poor|(talk)]] 10:34, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
::Of course, by "streamline," you mean, "derail." You've done nothing but throw a monkey wrench into the works (openly mocking the dispute resolution process all the while), and you have the unmitigated audacity to claim good faith. You're [[Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration#gasoline_and_petrol|proudly bragging that your actions allow users to switch back and forth between the American and British terms "whenever the mood strikes us,"]] and we're supposed to believe that you wish to settle the [[Gasoline]] vs. [[Petrol]] debate? And what bearing does the final outcome have on your ludicrous templates? They're invalid, no matter what. As for my failure to "take yes for an answer," that's an inaccurate statement; I '''''never''''' wanted to "win" in this manner. Sure, you moved the article back to [[Gasoline]], but at the expense of legitimate dispute resolution. As far as I'm concerned, that's no victory. The article should remain at [[Gasoline]] for the time being (which the voting thus far dictates), but the [[Talk:Gasoline|discussion]] (which you deleted, in flagrant violation of Wikipedia policy) should continue. And quite frankly, you should be stripped of the admin privileges that you're so eager to abuse. Your behavior isn't merely "poor" decision making, but outright trolling. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:45, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::*Lifeisunfair, please remember [[WP:NPA]], [[WP:CIV]] and [[WP:FAITH]]. If you have an issue, discuss it in private with the user, or if that fails, [[WP:RFC|request comments]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:30, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
:::*1. I'm commenting upon [[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]'s "behavior," not [[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] himself. 2. Compared with both [[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]'s rude remarks and the thoughts that are running through my mind, I'm being remarkably civil. 3. I ''did'' assume good faith, until [[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] began openly mocking the dispute resolution process and bragging about his sabotage. 4. I'm replying to [[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]'s remarks, but I will take your advice regarding a [[WP:RFC|request for comments]]. Thank you for your reply. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 12:51, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete all three'''. The inappropriateness of using Template namespace for transcluding large chunks of article is mostly TFD and VFD tradition, and not any sort of guideline or policy, although I think that it should be very strong guideline. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:35, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:*Actually, [[Wikipedia:Template namespace]] clearly states that ''"Templates should not masquerade as article content in the main article namespace"''. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
:::[[user:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]]'s [[User_talk:Ed_Poor#Petrol.2FGasoline_template|reply from his talk page]]: <font style="color:#00A651;">"I read [[Wikipedia:Template_namespace]] as far as ''provide cross-language portability of texts which are largely internationally the same, but contain some standard terms different in each language'' and then stopped. Have I missed something? The policy page you directed me to seems to recommend the very approach you object to."</font>
:::That's how seriously he takes this matter (and by extension, this community and it members). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:03, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Inappropriate. We were actually getting close to a consensus before this... - [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 13:05, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', never use transclusion for article prose. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 15:46, 2005 Jun 14 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. --[[User:Kbdank71|Kbdank71]] 20:46, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' [[User:-Ril-|<nowiki>~~</nowiki><nowiki>~~</nowiki>]] 19:24, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*Pour [[Gasoline|Petrol]] on top, light with a match, then '''Delete''' [[User:Bastique|<font size=+1>{{unicode|ℬ}}</font>astique]]<font style="color:#FF72E3;">{{unicode|▼}}</font>[[User talk:Bastique|'''<sup>talk</sup>''']] 03:01, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===June 13 ===
====[[Template:Discussion moved to]]====
Unused. Unsubstituted. Unnecessary. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*''''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 11:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', unnecessary. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 01:41, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''', occasionally useful. {{User:Eequor/Signature/Syllabic}} 00:17, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. Needless. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:45, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
===={{tl|DirectionUndecided}} and redirect {{tl|Undecided}} and also [[Template:DirectionUndecidedSection]]====
Yet more dispute templates. Used on exactly one article, and one category. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 10:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And yet another rarely used dispute template. Used on exactly two articles. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:'''''merged, so some double votes present, please undouble your own votes''''' --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 16:02, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I am not undecided about deleting this template. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', instruction creep. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:35, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I think it makes sense to maintain a fairly wide variety of templates for editing disputes. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 21:23, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*:My personal opinion is that there are a few of the dispute templates that are well-used and useful, and they should be kept, and there are a bunch of others that are often ''[[ad hoc]]'' creations for limited purposes. All of those templates should be replaced with something similiar to the {{tl|deletebecause}} template where an editor can add any commentary they want to handle any special circumstances. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 12:50, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' this is a note for the editors, not for a reader. If there is a current discussion, then the parties involved should watch the page, and kindly ask editors to participate in the discussion via their talk page. I would really hate to pick up a book and see the authors left a blank page; "Still has not been decided." Also agree with BlankVerse, if gonna keep, revamp and make it uniform with parameters. [[User:Who|<font color=#FF0033><></font>Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#00Ff00>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>¿</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 08:40, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[m:Instruction creep]] [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 10:51, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', instruction creep. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 12:35, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Keep''', I think it makes sense to maintain a wide range of editing dispute-related templates so that the right one for the situation is available. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 21:25, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)</s>Striking this vote out since this discussion has been merged with the above. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 23:25, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', I ''don't'' think it's a good idea to have hundreds of templates for each dispute. That's what the discussion page is for. Templates are really only needed when it's such a big problem that people need to know about it before they read further (NPOV, factual accuracy), or when the dispute is so large that people need to know before they edit the page. Let's not replace talk pages with templates. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 01:44, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
** A template and talk page serve two different purposes, the talk page is where contributors can discuss. A template on an article indicates to users and readers the status of the article. [[User:FT2|FT2]] 03:13, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
***Agreed, but I don't think that we need templates for every possible status of an article. If there's a dispute about something, it's usually fine to just discuss it on the talk page and make the change when consensus has been reached. -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 03:15, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Discourages people from editing. Before doing large edits you should check the talk page anyway, so this template is not useful. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 15:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' all three of them - [[Template:DirectionUndecidedSection]] is, for instance, pretty useful on [[republic]] presently. My view: rather promote the use of these now still "exotic" templates, they can be very useful to avoid or pacify hardened edit wars. In that case it is very good to have a template with ***exactly*** the terminology & approach that is most pacifying. When you're in a discussion the idea that the template already was created ''[[in tempore non suspecto]]'' by some other wikipedian, who must have seen the use of it and took the effort to explain how it works best in [[wikipedia:templates]] (e.g. [[Wikipedia:Template messages/Disputes]]), is far better than trying to construct something afresh in the heat of the discussion. "Uniformising" all to the about the same template is real ''creepy'' instruction creep. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 21:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Useful for organization, and templates are cheap. {{User:Eequor/Signature/Syllabic}} 00:14, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. The direction of an article is never decided, and never should be. [[User:Superm401|Superm401]] | [[User_talk:Superm401|Talk]] 03:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
===June 12 ===
====[[Template:Tsar things]]====
A navigation box for four articles whose only connection is that they are named Tsar [[Foo]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 17:16, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>∅</font> ]] 17:16, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*<del>'''Abstain''' until creator votes to keep, as per my policy proposal. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 18:06, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)</del>
*'''delete''', agree with Radiant's last comment. --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 00:58, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 18:17, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' what's the harm? I never heard about Tsar Bomba, but I found it through Tsar Bell so it was useful for me. [[User:Grue|<font style="background: black" face="Courier" color=#FFFFFF>''' Grue '''</font>]] 18:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 20:52, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', we already have an index and it's [[Special:Allpages]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 09:22, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''<br>It is not true that ''only'' connection between the articles is that they are named Tsar Foo (for example, if otherwise, [[Tsar Lazar]] would be included as well). The articles are connected culturaly: there exists a tradition in Russia of making huge things just for the sake of it and for the show, and oftenly they are named Tsar Foo; for example, I can predict that if Russia would have to make a rocket launcher several times larger than any existing, it would likely be named Tsar Rocket and so on. For reader of an article about one such thing, it is interesting and may be important to know that there are other such things. So, maybe the template could be deleted if there would be a category which would hold these four objects together (what could be a name for such a category I leave to your imagination); but until that is the case, keep. [[User:Nikola Smolenski|Nikola]] 05:30, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**Well, that is a decent explanation; but it means at the very least that the template is misnamed. Since I can't think of a feasible name for a category ''or'' a template here, and it's only a small number of things to being with, I'd suggest adding a small paragraph to each explaining what you just said here, and having it link to the related 'things'. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 07:48, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', small and useful. So what if a ''template'' doesn't have the perfect name. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 14:51, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. [[User:Bastique|<font size=+1>{{unicode|ℬ}}</font>astique]]<font style="color:#FF72E3;">{{unicode|▼}}</font>[[User talk:Bastique|'''<sup>talk</sup>''']] 02:55, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I think the template is amusing, but that's no reason to keep it. Use a category for "big things" (which must exist, but I can't find it), and then all the "Tsar things" will show up together in alphabetical order there. Possible additions: [[Goliath frog]], [[:Category:People with giantism]], [[RMS Titanic]], [[Spruce Goose]], [[Claes Oldenburg]]. I'm not really joking here... --[[User:Quuxplusone|Quuxplusone]] 17:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
==Holding Cell==
:''Move templates to the appropriate subsection '''here''' to prepare to delete '''if''' process guidelines are met.''
===To orphan===
:''These templates need to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (it doesn't need to be an admin, anyone can do it) should fix and/or remove significant usages from pages so that they can be deleted. Note that simple references to them from Talk: pages need not (and in fact should not) be removed.''
==== June 9 ====
*[[Template:Caribbean]] (merge/redir to [[Template:West Indies]]
*[[Template:stylehowto]] (obsolete, split into 'style' and 'howto')
**have added notice to split on this template --[[User:MarSch|MarSch]] 13:00, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* <s>[[Template:PD-Germany]] (3d, 1k, and legally misleading) - [[WP:IFD]] now has a list of all images containing this template, and will add {{tl|fairuse}} or {{tl|no source}} as appropriate. Since PD-Germany is legally misleading AND deprecated, it can now be orphaned and deleted.</s>
*:Some images are still tagged with this! Shouldn't we wait until [[WP:IFD]] orphans it? Orphaning for TFD means "remove this template wherever it is used," not "update with new tag"- that's [[WP:IFD]]'s job (and maybe [[WP:CP]]?). -[[User:Frazzydee|Frazzydee]]|[[User talk:Frazzydee|✍]] 22:38, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
===To convert to category===
:''Templates for which the consensus is that they ought to be converted to categories get put here until the conversion is completed.''
* ''None at present''
===Ready to delete===
:''Templates for which consensus to delete has been reached, have been orphaned, and the discussion logged to [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted]], can be listed here for an admin to delete.''
== Listings to log ==
''Templates with completed discussions which have not yet been logged; remove from'' '''''this''''' ''page entirely when logged. Anyone can do this, not just an admin; please see the directions at [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log]].''
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[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for deletion]]
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