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'''Michael Greenberg''' (born 28 November 1914, died 19 April, 1992), a scholar of Chinese economics and history, was alleged to have provided a Soviet spy with information during the 1940s, but was never charged with espionage.
Old talk at [[Talk:Gay Nigger Association of America]]
Greenberg was born as ''Michael Menahem Greenberg'' in [[Manchester]], Lancashire, [[England]], son of a Polish-born father. He attended [[Manchester Grammar School]] and won a scholarship to Cambridge University where he won first class honours.
==Eddie Murphy, the prophet, the saint, the god. Only out done by Starship. Atari 2600 pre ordered! says:
You suck
Eddie Murphy, the prophet, the saint, the god. Only out done by Starship. Atari 2600 pre ordered! says:
Me off==
Greenberg arrived in the United States in 1939 to attend the Graduate School of [[Harvard University]] under a Joseph Hodges Choate Memorial Fellowship from [[Trinity College, Cambridge]]. He studied at Harvard from [[October]] [[1939]] to January 1941. Greenberg also became editor of the [[Institute of Pacific Relations]] publication, ''Pacific Affairs'' in 1939. In 1942 Greenberg became a China specialist at the [[Board of Economic Warfare]] and an assistant to the agency's head, [[Lauchlin Currie]]. Greenberg later worked as a Foreign Affairs Economist in the Administrative Division, Enemy Branch, of the [[Foreign Economic Administration]]. [[Elizabeth Bentley]] stated that for a brief period Greenberg supplied information concerning principally [[China]]. The information was passed through [[Mary Price]].
There is no order to the list. The only natural way to order it is in alphabetical order. Reverting it is illogical.
Civil Service Commission security officials wanted Greenberg dismissed upon learning of an alleged involvement with the [[Communist Party]]. From FBI files, this appears to have been a classic example of "guilt by association" (see Silvermaster file 2C page 18; other accusations came from the discredited FBI-paid witness Louis Budenz and an academic Karl Wittvogel who met Greenberg in Cambridge and stated that he "must have" been a Communist because of his associates). Upon appeal, the Civil Service Commission was overruled. Greenberg became a U.S. citizen in 1944 and transferred to the [[Department of State]] in 1945, resigning in 1946. Greenberg left the United States permanently in 1947 after being interviewed by the [[FBI]] so was never called before a Congressional Committee.
==GNAA Discussion Page==
Greenberg's FBI file is highly redacted. A wiretap in 1945 revealed Greenbergs's co-workers discussing "the charges against him", and remarking that Greenberg would have been better off if he had worked, but that he had never turned out a piece of work in the three years he had been employed by the government.
"[[GNAA (Slashdot)]]" exists, so the disambiguation must be here. If you don't like [[GNAA (Slashdot)]] discuss it on [[Talk:GNAA_(Slashdot)]]
[[User:GoGi|GoGi]]
Upon return to England, Greenberg went back to Cambridge and completed work on his Ph.D. thesis, which was eventually published as a book "British Trade and the Opening of China" (1947, Cambridge University Press, reissued in 1970 and republished in the USA in 1979). This book, based on the then recently released archives of the Jardine Matheson Company, a major player in the development of Hong Kong, describes the forceful exploitation of China by British colonial power in establishing and maintaining the colony of Hong Kong.
:Please read this. [[User:GoGi|GoGi]]
Blocked from academic promotion, most likely due to his left-leaning politics, he went on to work in a number of jobs in journalism, public relations, advertising and film criticism in England, Switzerland and France. He lost his U.S. citizenship due to absence from the USA and was denied a passport by the British Home Office, even as late as the 1970s, presumably to due the McCarthy-era accusations. His British passport was never restored to him, and the accusations continued to hound him throughout the 1950s.
==Neutral disambiguation==
As of this writing, there exist two organizations known under the acronym GNAA -- the ''Global Network of Arab Activists'' and the ''Gay Nigger Association of America'', respectively. This page—the ''GNAA'' page— was (at the time of me originally writing this) a redirect to ''Global Network of Arab Activists'' and that article had a link to the ''Gay Nigger Association of America'' at its top.
In 1958, he was recruited as Economic Advisor to the [[Central Bank of Ceylon]], returning to the U.K. in 1961. Shortly thereafter, he became, as Michael Green, assistant editor and then chief editor of The Banker, a monthly professional journal published by the Financial Times of London. He later became Chief Economist at the London stockbroking company De Zoete & Bevan. He commented that in the City of London most people shared the Marxist analysis of capitalism that he had learned in Cambridge in the 1930s, but that they were, by contrast, quite content with the implicit inequalities.
I have boldly changed this page to a pure disambiguation page.
His obituary appeared in the London Times and the Independent. He was survived by his wife and three sons.
I recognize that there a lot of editing to and fro has already occurred and that this is a contentious issue. However, I offer the following reasons for my initiative:
== Sources ==
# Automatically redirecting to one of the two articles (with the other only being granted a link while the user already is on the "competing" article page) is likely to result in further disagreement over which organization is more important and which of the two respective articles the GNAA page should redirect to. A neutral disambiguation page avoids a contest over this.
# Without being familiar with Islam's attitude towards homosexuality and/or Internet trolling, and without being familiar with the Gay Nigger AA's attitude towards Arab culture, I do strongly suspect that the two organizations are very far apart. The Global Network of Arab Activists would probably not appreciate seeing their article adorned with a prominent link to the Gay Nigger Association of America. Likewise, the Gay Nigger Association of America may possibly not want to see their activities considered Arab activism (admittedly, being a troll organization, they might also find this amusing).
# "GNAA" is just an acronym. It is appropriate that the pure acronym page should be a redirect and the respective articles should remain logged under more detailed names.
# Looking at other cases where there are multiple definitions for an acronym, it would also certainly appear to me that is is Wikipedia convention to handle such issues this way.
# Only in cases where one acronym expansion is ''ubiquituously known'' and other definitions are not is there precedent for redirecting directly to an article and having a neutral statement of "For other meanings, see ''XYZ (disambiguation)''" at the top.
# Neither of the two definitions in this case are truly ubiquituously known.
*[http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/silversm.htm FBI Silvermaster file]
For these reasons, I made this page a neutral redirect page.
* Michael Greenberg interview, 7 June 1947, FBI Silvermaster file, serial 2583.
*Elizabeth Bentley deposition 30 November 1945, FBI file 65-14603.
*Earl Latham, ''The Communist Controversy in Washington: From the New Deal to McCarthy'', Cambridge: Harvard University Press, (1966), 306–307.
*John Costello, ''Mask of Treachery'', New York: Morrow, (1988), 380–381, 480–481.
*John Earl Haynes and Harvey Klehr, ''Venona: Decoding Soviet Espionage in America'' (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1999), pgs. 111, 113, 114, 161, 374, 408, 409, 415, 421.
*Boughton, James M. and Sandilands, Roger J. "[http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/sandilands_fdr_economists.html Politics and the Attack on FDR's Economists: From Grand Alliance to the Cold War]", ''Intelligence and National Security'', Spring 2002
*Michael Greenberg FBI FOIA
The order of listing both options was alphabetical (but someone has changed that since, which I don't consider an issue with only two options).
[[Category:Soviet spies|Greenberg, Michael]]
I am aware that the "GNAA (Slashdot)" page remains orphaned under this solution -- it was however orphaned before, so nothing changes in that respect.
[[Category:Venona Appendix B|Greenberg, Michael]]
If you think things should be changed again despite the above reasons, then ''please'' use the Talk page and give people a realistic chance to reply ''before'' making further changes. Thank you.
[[User:Ropers|Ropers]] 02:09, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)
PS: And yes, I have seen the "Gay Niggers from Outer Space" film -- a not unfunny member of the "so bad, it's good" movie category. I'm just saying.
==Global Network of Arab Activists==
<s>Since this page lost VfD a few days ago, we should probably get rid of the red link before someone recreates the page.</s> Forget it, I only posted this because the page was protected, but now it's unprotected and Silsor added several more expansions. If people want all those articles, I don't object. I'm relatively new here, so I don't want to be the one to start the next edit war or VfD controversy over this acronym.
[[User:Dave6|Dave6]] 04:20, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Why did my order change get removed? It looks like you're trying to put Gay Nigger Association of America at the bottom in all your edits.
:You could go off on me, or you could actually look at the page history. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 00:37, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
::I fail to see how asking you to provide justification for your edits is 'going off' on you. I don't see why one entry should always float to the bottom, unless you're trying to hide it or some such.
:::Is it really that much trouble to look at the page history like I asked? In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GNAA&diff=11252148&oldid=11251675 this] edit, an anonymous contributor moved the article to the bottom of the list. I [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GNAA&diff=next&oldid=11252148 moved] it back to near the top.
:::Anonymous users seem a little fishy after taking such an unusual interest in this page (a favourite target of vandals and trolls) that they want to put it in "alphabetical order" - which coincidentally is the same as listing the Gay Nigger Association of America first. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 22:13, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)
::::If you have any other suggestions as to order that doesn't put one entry (somewhat unfairly) towards the end, i'd love to hear them.
:::::Lists generally have a beginning and an end. Am I missing something? [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 01:12, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
:::::: Stop evading. Please to answer my question.
:::::::You're crazy if you're expecting an answer to a nonsensical question. "Please suggest an order for this list that does not have an ending" indeed. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 16:23, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Quite frankly, I don't understand the hassle over putting it in an order like everything else. I think you should stop being so anal and become a little more logical. Alphabetical order is completely appropriate for this list. --[[User:SpinelessCommie|SpinelessCommie]] 16:50, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::THANK YOU. wtf was silsor's (more like silswhore) problem?
: In [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GNAA&diff=8813255&oldid=8299352 this previous edit] I changed the ordering using Google popularity. I don't know why the order changed again, though. It seemed a pretty reasonable solution to me, what do you think? [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 13:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
== doubtful additions ==
We removed [[Greater Nashville Auburn Association]] and [[Global Network of Arab Activists]] from the list a few months ago, because there were no articles about them. This is why I also removed the recent addition of [[Gamma neutron activation analysis]] and [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]] because there was no article about them. I also suspect, while still assuming the utmost good faith from [[User:Brian0918|Brian0918]] (of course), that this edit's unexpected side effect might have been to remove the trolling organisation from the first position in the list. Brian, I find it quite surprising that you found about the [[Gamma neutron activation analysis]] (Google hits for +gnaa +"Gamma neutron activation analysis": exactly one page) but did not find it useful to clutter the disambiguation page again with [[Greater Nashville Auburn Association]] and [[Global Network of Arab Activists]]. They are probably a hundred time more relevant.
While I definitely enjoy the ever growing imagination of people who will fight to the death until [[Gay Nigger Association of America]] is no longer the first entry in the list, I am hoping we could agree that the amount of Google hits give a reasonable guess of what the reader expects to see first when looking for "GNAA" (or presumably any other ambiguous name) in a search engine. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:08, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
: Note my comment in the previous topic. If it is so important a subject, why did no one answer to me? [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:09, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I've created '''[[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]]'''. Let's see if you will still hold true to the alphabetical order so fully supported on this talk page. Please realize that Google is only one test of notability. This national gallery is obviously more notable than the gnaa. Don't even bother arguing it. As for [[Gamma neutron activation analysis]], you may want to check who wrote the article on [[mixed waste]]. On a side note, I'm not trying to destroy the gnaa article, I fully supported it in its FAC attempted, and battled with several of the opposers. Thanks for the subtle personal attacks, though, I'll add them to the collection. :) {{User:Brian0918/sig}} 18:20, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
: Can you explain who refers to the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]] as GNAA? I honestly think you are just inventing meanings. In fact, I cannot even find any reference to GNAA on the [http://www.galleriaborghese.it official website], let alone a website on the whole Internet that uses the acronym GNAA in a sentence (I must admit I could find a massive amount of 3 URLs using the acronym, though, which is more than 2 more than I initially expected).
: As for the ''alphabetical order so fully supported on this talk page'', I invite you to read the page again and realise that I have never been a great supporter of it, preferring the Google page count. For ages. And please explain how likely it is that someone looks for "GNAA" because they came across that acronym which was referring to the Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica, compared to the troll organisation or the Greater Nashville Auburn Association. Of course I will happily acknowledge that Google is (of course) not the only test of notability, and if you can provide a test that you think works well, please do, and we will see how me might combine both to get the best result.
: I have also never stated that you were trying to destroy the GNAA article that you supported in FAC. Please excuse my approximate language skills in case I might have written something that could remotely look like I said that. And if challenging the validity of changes represents personal attacks, maybe you should consider not changing the ordering of a list that states "by alphabetical order", for instance, or your collection will obviously grow bigger. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 22:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GNAA+%22Galleria+Nazionale%22&btnG=Google+Search]. It's a world famous national gallery in Rome that was built for a Pope and houses artwork by [[Raphael]] among others. Regardless of your opinion of the proper order, this talk page prefers alphabetical order. If you prefer notability, the national gallery is obviously more notable than a group of internet trolls (even on Google, "Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica" gets 10x the hits of "Gay Nigger Association"). Only about 1/6 of the world has an internet connection, and only a small fraction of them have heard of the Gay Nigger Association of America; nobody else has heard of the group, so don't even bother arguing notability. There is a big wide world outside virtual internet forums and chat rooms, regardless of whether you would like to admit it or not. --{{User:Brian0918/sig}} 22:23, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
: Brian0918, if this is not a bad faith edit, do you also support making SF link to "Sagrada Familia", P to "Parthenon" and so on, for every building that has an article on wikipedia? You will agree that those two are certainly more notable than the gallery in question. It obviously isn't regularly reffered to as "the GNAA" so I doubt your motivation here. I don't dispute the notability of the gallery, I just don't think every single article on wikipedia should be linked to by its acronym. [[User:Pigger|Pigger]] 22:27, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
::I'm not for organizing by notability, I'm for organizing alphabetically, as has been the norm with all other things on Wikipedia. --{{User:Brian0918/sig}} 22:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Did you even read what I wrote? To make it clear, I don't think "GNAA" should link to the gallery at all, and I consider what you are doing to be in bad faith, because I didn't notice that notable buildings (like my examples) are linked to from their acronyms on wikipedia. Unlike the Gay Nigger Association of America, the gallery obviously isn't regularly reffered to as "the GNAA", so it has nothing to do with the acronym, apart from the fact that the first letters of the words match, but that is not reason enough to link it, or every article on wikipedia would be linked to from its acronym's page. [[User:Pigger|Pigger]] 22:41, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
::::See, your examples are what we call a [[straw man fallacy]]. Unlike the national gallery, of which there are at least 30 Google hits using the acronym, I doubt there are any hits showing P stands for Parthenon (and if there are, that's fine with me; that's exactly what disambiguation pages are for). You cannot deny that GNAA can refer to ''Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica'', so, given that this disambiguation page states "GNAA can refer to (in alphabetic order):", it is only natural that this gallery not only be included, but be placed at the beginning. Given the tone of your comments and your quickness to calling my work "bad faith" (including my creating an article on a very notable subject), I shall also move to consider your motives to be in "bad faith". --{{User:Brian0918/sig}} 22:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Actually, you are wrong, that would be an example of a false analogy, not a straw man fallacy. This is a straw man falacy. Always willing to educate - [[User:Pigger|Pigger]] <3
::::::Ahh yes, my bad. --{{User:Brian0918/sig}} 22:50, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
::::: How can you find 30 Google hits using the acronym, while I can only find 2 pages using both "Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica" and "GNAA" (to which I would agree to add two other pages where "gnaa" is used as part of a filename)? Also, it seems you were quick to call false analogy on the P/Parthenon example, but in your hurry you forgot to refute the SF/Sagrada Familia example. See for instance how http://www.manyanet.org/ or http://www.travelblog.org/Europe/Spain/Barcelona/blog-8570.html where S.F. or SF is clearly used to mean Sagrada Familia. Don't hesitate to enlighten us! [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:02, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
::: Since when has organising alphabetically become a norm? We have always been organising by relevance, AFAIK. In fact, I am struggling to find an acronym disambiguation page that is purposedly sorted alphabetically (my random tries were FFF, IRL, BSD, TLA, WTF, XXX...) [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 16:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed [[Gamma neutron activation analysis]] from the list. As anyone can see for himself, the most common of these techniques are known as PGNAA (P standing for pulsed or prompt), DGNAA or LS-DGNAA (D standing for delayed) but I could find no reference to this family of methods referred to as GNAA.
*I doubt all of these separate methods would ever have their own articles. Instead, they would all be grouped together under one title, ie GNAA. Anyway, it's a red link so feel free to remove it. --{{User:Brian0918/sig}} 16:35, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
** Well, of course not. They would all be grouped together under one title, ie [[Gamma neutron activation analysis]]. Why this insistance on trying to create a meaning for an acronym when it is actually never used in that field? [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 16:47, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
[[User:Brian0918|Brian0918]], it is now the second time you claim there are more than 30 Google hits for the gallery and the GNAA acronym (once above in this discussion, and once in your latest edit to the page where the figure was no longer 30 but 100). I still can only find 4 such pages. Also, you are refusing to discuss with that anonymous user on the grounds that he'll never listen to you, but you still haven't explained where on Google you found 100 pages using GNAA for the gallery. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:32, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*Sorry, I didn't remember the figure so I just did a google search for GNAA and Gallery or Galleria or something. [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=GNAA+%22galleria%22+antica+OR+moderna&btnG=Search This] says 37. As I've repeatedly said, Google is only useful in certain instances (eg if you're comparing two online things). The gallery is obviously more notable than the gnaa, and plenty of notable Italian gallery sites use "GNAA" as an abbreviation for the gallery. You do realize that the anonymous user is a member of the GNAA, right? His website is commonly linked to in gnaa IRC channels. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-13 17:47</small>
:: I am sorry, on my computer, [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=GNAA+%22galleria%22+antica+OR+moderna&btnG=Search this] says 15, not 37. Let us have a look at a few of them:
::* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNAA - occurence caused by you.
::* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Silsor - occurrence caused by you.
::* http://www.italytravelnet.it/it/lazio/cultura/musei/province/gnaa.htm - page does not mention the acronym "GNAA".
::* http://www.stradario.roma.it/GALLERIA_CARACCIOLO_FILIPPO.php - page does not mention the acronym "GNAA".
::* http://www.code.it/gnaa/BODY.HTM - page does not mention the acronym "GNAA".
::* http://www.code.it/gnaa/ - redirect to the above page, does not mention the acronym "GNAA".
::* http://www.libromania.it/capitolo.asp?autore=Dossi%2C+Carlo&titolo=Note+azzurre&capitolo=da+2001+a+2990 - page says "''Lo stagnajo gridava: Iiìo stà-gnaa-raaro!''", which is a sentence in Italian that I am unable to translate.
::* http://www.filipposcozzari.org/writings/istericoametano/IstercMet.htm - I quote the page: '''''Gniiiiiii gnaaaaa gnaa'''''. An excellent reference.
::* http://penetrazionigay_uk_to-_sex023_10111110_info-.sex323.18to24.ca/ - I quote again: '''''gay GNAA Mac pornography fuck'''''.
:: Which leaves us with at most 6 remotely relevant pages. How are you going to convince anyone that this should be 100 or even 37? [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:14, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, you are endlessly mixing the concepts of "X being notable", and of "the use of GNAA as referring to X being widespread" (which should definitely be the main disambiguation criterion, but ''no one ever answered my requests for comments about this ordering''). [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:41, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*Actually, I think it is you who are confusing what this article says, as well as what people on the talk page say. The article says "GNAA can refer to (in alphabetical order)", and indeed "GNAA" is used by notable Italian gallery sites to refer to this gallery (as well as countless unknown print media), and indeed "Galleria" does come before "Gay" alphabetically. I'm simply following the wishes of those on the talk page, as well as the wording used in the article. You are trying to go against all of this, as if people looking for "Gay Nigger Association of America" would have a difficult time finding '''the 2nd item on the list'''. Stop wasting my time. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-13 17:47</small>
:: I am not discussing what the article says. I am discussing what it should say, hence my numerous attempts at proposing ordering by relevance. It is not because I do not change the article that I agree with what's in it (and it seems I do well by not changing it, because you keep reverting the edit in favour of which I am arguing, ignoring 3RR, and also blocking the editor). But in the end, I feel like it's hopeless discussing on the talk page since I get constantly ignored. You cannot say "I follow what the article says" (ie. alphabetical order) if it's what we are arguing about. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
:: Also, I hope you are well aware that "countless unknown print media" cannot be considered a valid source of information. In fact, being unknown, I doubt they can be considered anything at all. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 19:19, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
== GNAA can refer to edit war ==
Evidence: http://www.bayou.com/~woodland/gnaa.html
Evidence: Over 500 matches for a google search of "gnaa" and "edit war" (http://www.google.com/search?q=gnaa+edit+war)
This evidence is at least as good as what [[User:Brian0918]] presented to justify the addition of [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]]; so if it goes from the list, then [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]] must also go, logically.
== brian0918 ==
Since someone (probably some jew) protected the page, I have to comment here:
''That makes even less sense. The Gallery is far more notable than any of the other things on this list'' - Brian0918
Really guys, why are we so naive to believe that an organization of homosexual blacks or native Americans could be more notable than one of whites? It is probably even Wikipedia policy that in all cases blacks go below whites on lists. [[User:Pigger|Pigger]] 18:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
== Summary of my remarks to Brian0918 ==
Brian, I am sorry if my comments and questions are a bit mixed everywhere. I will try to make it easier for you to answer (and maybe less aggressive, sorry if the tone seemed a bit heated).
* About the use of "GNAA" to refer to the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]]:
** No page indexed by Google uses "GNAA" in a sentence to refer to the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]].
** Only six pages indexed by Google use "GNAA" to refer to the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]].
** Almost 9,000 pages indexed by Google refer to the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Antica]] without mentioning the acronym "GNAA".
** As a means of comparison, the [[Galleria Nazionale d'Arte Moderna]] has about 3 times as many Google hits as the ''Arte Antica'' one. However, almost [http://www.google.com/search?q=galleria+%22la+gnam 200 pages] referenced by Google seem to use "''la GNAM''" to refer to it, while [http://www.google.com/search?q=galleria+%22la+gnaa none] use "''la GNAA''" to refer to the ''Arte Antica'' gallery.
* About the use of the alphabetical order:
** This is not, and has never been, "common Wikipedia practice". See for instance [[FFF]], [[IRL]], [[BSD (disambiguation)|BSD]], [[TLA (disambiguation)|TLA]], [[WTF]], [[XXX]], [[RSS]]. In fact, I am tired of browsing [[:Category:3-letter acronym disambiguations]] to find a single article that is alpha-sorted (there may well be a few, but they would obviously be the exception, or even have happened by sheer luck).
** There is no "alphabetical order so fully supported on this talk page". For instance, [[User:silsor|silsor]] and I, though we disagree on which entry should come first, are in favour of sorting by relevance. Other article contributors who have not contributed to the talk page, such as [[User:Natalinasmpf|Natalinasmpf]], seem to support this point of view, too.
** You seemed to be in favour of ordering by relevance, too, judging by [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=GNAA&diff=20341257&oldid=19987651 your first edit on this article].
Do you disagree with the above statements, and if so, can you please tell me how? [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 20:08, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
*I see the fact that the GNAM is shown on Google to be frequently abbreviated GNAM as evidence that the GNA Antica is frequently abbreviated GNAA as well, whether or not it is indexed on Google.
:: Oh dear. And you were the one talking about fallacies? The GNAM is used in many places as a reference to the gallery, there does not seem to be a single sentence on the Internet using GNAA as a reference to the other gallery, and you claim that it is proof that GNAA ''is'' actually used to mean that? Please explain the logic behind this.
*'''You don't?''' There's no difference between these galleries or their huge worldwide popularity. It just so happens that on the internets, GNAM gets more hits.
:: We are not talking about ''more hits'', we are talking about ''hundreds of hits'' versus ''no hits at all''. One could argue about anything that has no Internet coverage using that ''it just happens it gets more hits'' logic.
*But, in case you didn't realize, there are other forms of print media besides the digital.
:: Sure, I will be very glad to hear about the Italian print media that talk about ''la GNAA''.
*Using an internet search engine to compare something highly popular that has no internet presence with something that is only slightly notable (as seen by all the VFDs) on the internet itself is not a good comparison. As for no references to the Galleria as GNAA, [http://216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=galleria+nazionale+GNAA&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&n=10&fl=0&u=web.tiscali.it/quadernoarte/link.htm&w=galleria+nazionale+gnaa&d=CA458A8818&icp=1&.intl=us] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/iconografia/prot_1920.htm] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/saggi/commedia_cinquecento/capitoli/bibliografia.htm] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/categorie/forme_scrittura.htm] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/categorie/festa.htm] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/iconografia/index_m.htm] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/saggi/commedia_cinquecento/capitoli/lezion01.html] [http://www.italica.rai.it/rinascimento/saggi/commedia_cinquecento/capitoli/lezion01.htm] [http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=galleria+nazionale+GNAA/v=2/SID=e/TID=E193_83/l=WS5/R=8/;_ylt=ApI5A1a_b_XZUbCb2VYts4RXNyoA/SIG=16djpg3p1/EXP=1124123128/*-http%3A//216.109.125.130/search/cache?p=galleria+nazionale+GNAA&prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&n=10&fl=0&u=www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ighnfs.htm&w=galleria+nazionale+gnaa&d=1098FADC8C&icp=1&.intl=us] [http://www.unh.edu/music/Icon/ilthits.htm] [http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:p0ho9oIN8q0J:www.ticket.it/persone/mostra.htm+GNAA+Palazzo+Barberini&hl=en] [http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:SDVSznwAMK4J:www.ticket.it/Persone/eventi.htm+GNAA+Palazzo+Barberini&hl=en] [http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:9C0ljg6lensJ:www.castelmeteo.it/arte/Caravaggio.htm+GNAA+Palazzo+Barberini&hl=en] [http://www.code.it/gnaa/]. I really don't care whether or not you accept any of these as valid, because I think you're choosing not to accept them by definition. I think it's pretty ridiculous that you're still debating whether the Gallery is abbreviated GNAA, and that you're supporting/defending known members of an internet troll group. Whether we sort alphabetically or by notability, the Gallery will still easily be on top. You're choosing to redefine words and sophisticate to get your way, and it got old a long time ago. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-14 16:42</small>
:: Links 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 only mention GNAA because they use the title of the page in link 3. Link 15 does not even mention GNAA. Which leaves us with 7 rather valid pages, though none of them uses GNAA in a sentence. May I interpret this as an approval by you of my second remark, then?
:: Also, I find it quite insulting that you accuse me of redefining words when at the same time you try to give the acronym GNAA a meaning that it does not have. I have done a very thorough search of specialised art sites, even places not reachable by Google (such as http://www.artcyclopedia.com/scripts/tsearch.pl?t=gnaa&type=3) and I have found no evidence of what you are claiming. Until you have found such evidence, you know what it is? Original research, that's all.
:: By the way, does anyone here support your point of view? Because the few people taking part in the discussion were supporting mine (before you blocked them, of course). [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Thank you for not answering my question in bold. That's why I put it in bold; that means "ignore this question". — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-14 17:34</small>
:::: Thanks for ignoring the fact that I asked "Please explain the logic behind this." before I can answer your question. If I don’t understand your logic, I cannot tell you whether I agree with it or not. But if you want a temporary answer until you clarify: '''no, I don’t think I do'''. Cheers, [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 17:36, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::You agree that the modern art gallery is known to be abbreviated GNAM. You refuse to believe that the ancient art gallery is known to be abbreviated GNAA. I've given you numerous examples which you've chosen to toss out. You won't acknowledge that there exist other print media outside your interweb. You can't be helped. This debate is pointless. I'm done wasting time with your blatant sophistry. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-14 17:46</small>
:::::: I agree that the modern art gallery is known to be abbreviated GNAM because I have seen hundreds of sentences in Italian talking about "''la GNAM''" to refer to it. And of course, having seen ''exactly zero'' of such sentences using "''la GNAA''", I refuse to believe the same for the ancient art gallery. The "numerous" examples you talk about amount to about seven pages (none of them using the abbreviation in a sentence). And nowhere did I refuse to acknowledge that there exist other print media, but unfortunately for this to have any meaning maybe you could cite a few of them that talk about "''la GNAA''". Otherwise, the only thing I can do to counter this non-argument is by using another non-argument, such as the numerous print media that say that you are wrong. By the way, if you put brackets around the word [[sophistry]] it becomes a link, and you can click on it to learn how it massively applies to your reasoning. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Why are you supporting people who vandalized my user page, made personal attacks, sent me threatening emails, and/or have identified themselves as members of the gnaa? Or are you choosing to ignore this fact so you can say they "supported your view" and were "unjustly" blocked by me? — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-14 17:39</small>
:::: I am not supporting any people (implying this is not far from a personal attack I prefer to ignore) and definitely not their vandal actions. I am supporting my views of what the article should look like. And for the record, I have ''never'' stated that the blocks were "unjust"; I said that ''you'', being personally involved in an edit war and making dubious claims of vandalism, shouldn’t have done the block, and should have rather asked for a third party to do it. [[User:Sam Hocevar|Sam Hocevar]] 18:10, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
:::: What the hell are you talking about, can you please show me where I vandalized your user page or sent you threatening e-mails? Also, I would appreciate you showing me a wikipedia policy page that states being in the GNAA is a reason to be blocked. I also wonder why you didn't even respond to my e-mail (in which I absolutely didn't threaten you) or leave a comment on my talk page. [[User:Piggest|Piggest]] ([[User:Pigger|pigger]])
I am protecting this page until users have resolved these disputes. Please do not engage in revert warring. --[[User:Ryan Delaney|Ryan Delaney]] [[User talk:malathion|<sup><b>talk</b></sup>]] 18:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
: Unfortunately, Brian0918 refuses to give any logical reasoning behind his edits, so I feel that any attempt at resolving this dispute here is severely flawed. People have already tried (see above) to no avail. [[User:84.12.199.138|84.12.199.138]] 18:47, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
:: I suspect that a lot of the people who keep reverting to add articles are simply trying to divert attention from the infamous [[Gay Nigger Association of America]] article, which they find distasteful for some reason. --[[User:Jacj|Jacj]] 16:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
:::And you'd be wrong. I fully supported the GNAA article becoming a featured article. Learn your facts before making accusations. — <small>[[User:Brian0918|<b><font color=black>BRIAN</font></b>]][[User_talk:Brian0918|<font color=gray>0918</font>]] • 2005-08-20 21:14</small>
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