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{{bias}}
'''Note: this page has a bug. If you make an edit and save the page, before you do anything else, look to see if your edit appeared (and also that portions of the page haven't been rearranged). If it's screwed up, go BACK once with your browser and hit SAVE PAGE again.''' [[User:RJII|RJII]] 17:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
{{merge|Gratis Internet}}
 
== '''Freepay( Previously Gratis Internet)''' ==
== Talk archives ==
''If you want to talk about Anarcho-Capitalism (A-C), make sure you take a look at past discussions about it. Same goes for other controversial topics.''--[[User:Albamuth|albamuth]] 21:33, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
This is a company that has been around since 2001. What they do is offer free gifts or electronics(Ipod Nano) to anyone. There is no catch. You have to [[http://ipods.freepay.com/?r=23423373 Sign up]] using [[http://ipods.freepay.com/?r=23423373 this link]]. The way this company works is that when you sign up for one of their offers listed they get paid by the advertiser and this how they pay for your free gift. Once you have referred enough people and they have signed up for an offer, the company makes enough money to pay for your free gift and make profit.
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive1]] - A-C discussion, music, external links (late 2002)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive2]] - many more external links (spring 2003)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive3]] - discussion of disambiguation, various forms of anarchism (the rest of 2003)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive4]] - Doublethink, socialist/communist?, Deplorable! (January 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive5]] - removing A-C, reverts, functioning anarchies, (February, March 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive6]] - Anarchy v. Anarchism and POV (March 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive7]] - egalitarianism, anarchy, surrealism, are you an anarchist? (April, May 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive8]] - coercion, anarcho-fascism, worthless! (May, June 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive9]] - A-C is oxymoron, proposals, history repeats, truce, coup, truce, anarcho-fascism(A-F) (June 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive10]] - history of article, more allegations of POV, another appeal to save A-F (late June, early July 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive11]] - lots of stuff, mostly an edit war about A-C (June to November 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive12]] - more aftermath of edit war, page blanking, punk rock (November, December 2004)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive13]] - ''auto wiki link suggestions'', shortening article, anarchists vs police (December 2004, January 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive14]] - hunter-gatherers, adbusters, template discussion (January to early February 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive15]] - superhuge National-Anarchist troll and response, A-C is an oxymoron, anarchist criteria, page protected (early February 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive16]] - ''Survey and response'', CrimethInc, communism, much to read here (early-to-mid February 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive17]] - trolls, more critique of A-C, dictionary definitions, much of it obviously written while drunk (February to April 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive18]] - disambiguation, 'left' anarchism, NPOV and so much more! (April 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive19]] - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion, graphical badness, and Milk! (May to June 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive20]] - NPOV dispute, page protection, more A-C discussion (June 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive21]] - polls, unprotection, disambig proposals, anti-state stuff, RFC's and RFM's (June to July 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive22]] - Let me guess? More A-C stuff! Revert war, mudslinging, Rothbard's ugly mug (July 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive23]] - Archive of page when it was nuked 5 Aug 1:28 (late June polls, but mostly July and August 2005)
*[[Talk:Anarchism/Archive24]] - RFC, individualism, continuation of edit war, "national anarchism" and Edumund Burke (July and August 2005)
 
Here are the steps to get started:
==Open tasks==
{{AnarchismOpenTask}}
 
'''1.''' You go to the [[http://ipods.freepay.com/?r=23423373 link]] and [[http://ipods.freepay.com/ Sign up]].
==total waste==
 
'''2.''' Once you have signed up you must complete an offer. Most of them require a creditcard but you won't be charged anything.
All I can say is this article is total waste now, totally inaccurate, and full of shit. Might as well just vandalize the whole page to be the sentence "anarchism cannot be defined correctly on wikipedia."
:What do you regard as inaccuracies? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 01:16, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 
'''3.''' Now that you have completed an offer you need to get 5 people to sign up for you or the amount required.
:I'm pretty confident that this user is referring to the inclusion of "anarcho-capitalism" and "national anarchism" as forms of anarchism. I know that I personally find this article hard and even quite a bit depressing to look at with their inclusion. It effectively hijacks the furthest left-wing attitude and folds it back onto the right. Ironically, I'm a former anarcho-capitalist myself and at the time would have said I was "anarchist", but only because I had such a poor grasp of the subject to know otherwise. In fact, I was so confused I thought anarcho-capitalism was the only "true" anarchism because I considered anarchism to only oppose the state when in effect it opposes all means of oppression. As it happens, I now consider capitalist structures much more powerful than a simple state.
 
'''4.''' Now you wait to receive your free gift in the mail in about 2 to 3 weeks.
:In fact, if you think about it, anarcho-capitalists are no more "anarchist" than communists, who are insistent on destroying capitalism albeit preserving the state, after you consider that they consider capitalism the more potent threat. To a right libertarian, such an idea is apparently beyond any sort of comprehension. The only peace of mind I'm left with is my confidence that these topics will be removed from the article in some fashion or another. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:15, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::All these schools of thought oppose what they believe to be coercive relations between individuals (and oppression) and favor what they believe to be voluntary relations --the key phrase is "what they believe to be..." The minute an editor starts injecting his personal judgements into the article as to what actually is or is not coercive, voluntary, or oppressive is when the POV problems arise. An NPOV article cannot make that judgement, but must include all schools of thought that favor what they believe to be an anarchistic mode of operating. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 02:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::And yet your reason for wanting it listed here is because you "believe it to be" anarchist. There's no such thing as an "NPOV article", and it certainly isn't very NPOV to put philosophies here most often seen as the enemies of anarchism and listing them here. An open-minded policy in deciding what is allowed is good, but there is a point where you make the article completely POV by overrepresenting your own viewpoints in a way that isn't compatible with the common perception of a subject matter. Even anarcho-capitalists themselves do not identify themselves as anarchist foremost; you would make certain to state that you are an anarcho-capitalist so as to highlight the difference, and from there you might claim that your philosophy is anarchist. There are no "schools of thought". Anarchists are anarchists, and identify as such. If you have to create a different label for yourself, you clearly cannot be properly anarchist, but are rather simply attempting to usurp the name for your own uses. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 03:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Oh really? So all anarchists agree with each other on everything? There is just one monolithic movement? They all support the same economic system, etc? If that's what you believe, you're in for an education. Read the article. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 04:01, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::I don't particularly care which of your own beliefs you decided to overemphasize in the article. You should be aware that Wikipedia policy states that even facts can be POV when overrepresented. All anarchist organizations that exist are open to other anarchists. It doesn't surprise me that you've created an article on "American individualist anarchism", which as it happens is not surprisingly part of the popular anarchist movement either and is much more closely tied with anarcho-capitalism. That it's called itself "American individualist anarchism" shows that it was never even accepted by individual anarchists. That you've listed one of these people first in the article is another example of your rampaging attempts at establishing *your* POV as *neutral* POV, and accordingly I've brought the <nowiki>{{pov}}</nowiki> tag back to the article. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 04:12, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::Individualist anarchism in America was never accepted by individualist anarchists? You really are in for an education. Almost all the individualist anarchists are Americans. Your claim that it's not part of the "popular anarchist movement" may be right if you're talking about a social movement where people are out rioting in the streets and flipping cars over. But individualist anarchism is "philosophical anarchism." This article has to cover all notable types of anarchism, not just "popular anarchism." You're putting the POV tag on the article is therefore unjustified --this article is very NPOV. What you're really upset about is that the article is NOT POV. And, the reason why individualist anarchism is listed first is because the schools of thought are listed in chronological order of origin. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 13:27, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::If individualist anarchism is American individualist anarchism, then what was your point in constructing a second article on the topic? And there you go again, certain that your own point of view is the "neutral" point of view simply because it is more inclusive. I think you might actually want to read Wikipedia's [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV policy]] because you seem to have no understanding of it. Particularly read the section on "undue weight". You're correct in thinking that expression of all positions is justified, but expressing them as "equals" isn't, particularly in a case like this where anarchism already has an established meaning and which you're merely attempted to modify to fit your own definition. In fact, this article will never be in any way neutral so long as two competing philosophies are listed here as being equal parts of the same one. You probably feel that it's a "compromise" that topics on "left-wing" anarchism are even allowed to remain here, just as I might have at one point, and that it's "neutral" since both point of views are represented. However, that they're represented as being integral parts of a single philosophy makes no sense, and that you've pushed 20th century American individualism into the primary spot on the list of so-called "schools" shows your intention of redefining anarchism primarily to your own definition, although allowing "traditional" anarchism a substantial minority position due to your own unbounded generosity. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 20:34, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Wow, you're really off the mark. Individualist anarchism is not synonymous with American individualist anarchism. All the latter article does is confine the discussion to the individualist anarchists in America so those philosophers may be discussed in depth. There are other individualists anarchists that are quite different from the individualist anarchism that arose in America. The individualists in America simply have a uniquely American character. (I even put up a tag on the top of the [[individualist anarchism]] article because I felt that the non-Americans weren't being being represented enough). And no, I don't look at it as a "compromose that topics on left-wing anarchism are even allowed to remain here" as you suggest. I only wish there were more kinds of anarchism to include in the article. Finally, again, you are wrong to presume that anarchism is a "single philosophy." It's a variety of movements and philosophies that all happen to oppose the existence of government in favor of voluntary relations between individuals; beyond that, anything goes. As the Encyclopedia Britannica says, anarchism is "cluster of doctrines and attitudes centred on the belief that government is both harmful and unnecessary." Get it out of your head that it's a single unified movement. It's not at all. It's a hodgepodge of philosophies and movements that are competing to be the "true anarchism." [[User:RJII|RJII]] 21:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::I won't go into the issue of whose philosophy is correct, but what do you propose we do? Wikipedia is not allowed to show bias. If a prominent school of thought considers itself to be anarchist, we have to include it. (And please, spare us the lecture about whose philosophy is bigger: everyone here knows that each side likes to inflate its numbers, with ancaps claiming numerous adherents among right-libertarians, objectivists, and conservatives, and leftist anarchists claiming that everyone in a labor union or at an anti-globalization protest is a traditional anarchist.) Further, many "true anarchists" consider anarcho-capitalism to be a non-traditional form of anarchism. This is well-documented on Wikipedia. But of course, you knew that already, judging from the level of involvement revealed by your user page.
::If you want to start an article with a pared-down focus, like anti-capitalist anarchism, or 19th-century anarchism, go ahead. But please don't claim to be an authority on who is a true anarchist, or that you own the term. That would be the height of irony. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 02:39, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::My proposal is that this article should be split in two, with <nowiki>[[anarchism]]</nowiki> representing the predominant "left anarchism" generally understood with the term, and <nowiki>[[right anarchism]]</nowiki> representing movements such as anarcho-capitalism and anarcho-nationalism intent on using anarchism to satisfy a status quo. Before you cry this is unfair, note the similar arrangment with [[Libertarianism]] representing right-libertarianism and [[Libertarian socialism]] representing left-libertarianism. That these articles are split makes sense to me, because they are certainly beyond the point you could call them related philosophies. It also makes sense to me that right-libertarianism holds the main article, since that is the common perception. Here, however, we have two very different philosophies shoved into the same article, resulting in an article no one will ever be content with. I'm not even against you calling these ideas "anarchism", but I do believe they don't belong in this article. I do find your little "19th century anarchism" thing a good joke though, considering as far as I can tell every anarchist organization that has ever existed has been "anti-capitalist anarchism". That's not to say there aren't organized anarcho-capitalist movements, but they operate under the cloak of the term "libertarianism" because they acknowledge what anarchism refers to in popular context. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 03:53, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::::First of all, anarcho-capitalists do self-refer as anarchists. Second, if we use capitalism in the broad sense to refer to free markets and support of contracts that allow an employer to retain profit, obviously some anarchists have supported capitalism, such as Kevin Carson and Keith Presont in the former case and Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner in the latter case. Third, you dodged my point about certain "true anarchists" recognizing anarcho-capitalists as anarchists, but I'll take your reply to RJII as a response. It's incorrect. Even Peter Kropotkin recognized the American individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker as an anarchist. You must have missed the past archives in which the left anarchists here repeatedly insisted that the American individualist anarchists were ''not'' associated with anarcho-capitalism. (Both views are presented NPOV on the [[Individualist anarchism and anarcho-capitalism]] article.)
::::Fourth, the libertarian article refers to right libertarianism because that is by far the most common usage. You have to go through something like 10 pages of Google results to get to a reference to it in the socialist sense. Correspondingly, most people - including, as mentioned in the archives you didn't bother reading before upsetting the delicate order, several 19th century anarchists - think of "anarchism" simply to refer to opposition to all government in the sense of the state. Again, this was thoroughly discussed in the archives in which every random sample of dictionaries - which specialize in reflecting the common usage of the term - defined anarchism as anti-state but not necessarily anti-capitalist. You can check for yourself if you like. Fifth, if people dispute that anarcho-capitalism is true anarchism, then by all means prominently mention that in the article. Actually, it already is. But if you're going to do that, you have to mention every dispute on which strand of anarchism is "true anarchism." RJII has done a great job in showing that anarcho-syndicalists, anarcho-communists, and anarcho-primitivists have been denied the title of "true anarchist" by other anarchists. Insofar as all of these disputes are mentioned, it's NPOV and doesn't warrant your tag. Finally, you didn't explain why my "little" "19th century anarchism is a joke. Did I miss anything? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 04:49, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::You said ''Fourth, the libertarian article refers to right libertarianism because that is by far the most common usage. You have to go through something like 10 pages of Google results to get to a reference to it in the socialist sense.''
:::::You rest my point. You know how many pages it takes to get to a result relating to anarcho-capitalism searching for anarchism on Google? I don't, because I gave up trying after 25 pages of results. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 04:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::Really? You emailed the heads of all those sites and asked them how they defined anarchism? That's the difference between libertarianism and anarchism: it's immediately clear how a site is using the term "libertarian". It's not so clear if a site defines anarchism as necessarily anti-capitalist, and even if it did, it would need to spell out what aspects of capitalism it opposes. There are many aspects of what would often be considered "capitalism" that anarcho-capitalists certainly oppose, and many aspects of what would often be considered "capitalism" that traditional anarchists do not oppose. That's why it makes sense to use dictionaries to measure common usage in that case. Btw, do you want to contest any of my other points? Because if you don't want to defend your position, for example, that American individualist anarchists were never associated with traditional anarchism, you're just revealing how ill-informed you are on this matter. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 12:54, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 
There are other sites you can sign up for:
I don't think that the "anarchism" and "right anarchism" division is a good idea, because it seems to me that the definition of anarchism given (opposed to rulers/opposed to the State) is completely compatible with Anarcho-capitalism, for instance. Whether you consider capitalism oppressive or not doesn't seem relevant, because the definition of anarchism isn't "anti-oppressive". If it was, we'd have to throw in a bunch of other forms of government (i.e. democracy) that many have claimed are not oppressive. So, you could divide the pages into "anarchism (anti-oppressive)" and "anarchism (anti-government)", but I think the former would be relatively worthless as far as classifying forms of government from a NPOV. My suggestion is that either a new definition of anarchism be given (but I don't know what that would be), or we should use the following criteria:
# Does the proposed system lack a government?
# Has the term been used widely enough that it deserves a place in Wikipedia?
If the answer to both is "yes", why shouldn't the term be mentioned somewhere in the article? If you want to divide the section into two pages "anarchism (anti-capitalist)" and "anarchism (anti-government)", and you can justify that the former is a popular notion, then I suppose that's OK. But to leave out a page such at this one, which is essentially "anarchism (anti-government)", is to deny that there exists a connection between the systems listed.--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 22:35, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:Anarchism isn't always defined simply as a lack of government; it just as oftens refers to an end of any form of hierarchical rulership, and the actual etymology of the word (with archos alternatively being translated as "rulership" or "governance") not helping to clarify anything either. As ruler can be defined to mean anyone possessing power and influence over others (and not simply rational-legal authorities), limiting the translation to "government" does not seem appropriate. The article division you suggest doesn't work either because anti-capitalist anarchism is as opposed to government as anything else styling itself with the word. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 23:22, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::Hmmm, well, perhaps a solution similar to the one you mentioned would work. Make the main anarchism page as you described: Anarchism is defined as an end of hierarchical rulership. The top of the page would make it clear that this is the definition being used, and it would link to another page, called "Anarchism (anti-government)" or "Anarchism (anti-State)", because clearly there are a number of people who use that definition. This page would feature Anarcho-capitalism and any other system that couldn't be included on the main page. Would anyone object to that? I don't think the term "Right anarchism" would be good for the page, because the connection between the two definitions is that they have the same roots; the connection is not that one is a branch of the other. Just my two cents.--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 00:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::This solution would be acceptable to me, although as suggested by MrVoluntarist might result in other issues. The status of [[individualist anarchism]] is particularly problematic, since it too is split historically between an earlier "left" anarchism and a more modern pro-market anarchism. The article in its current states focuses more heavily on [[American individualist anarchism]], which is its dominant context; however, there are a number of important earlier European anarchists associated with it critical of markets. I'd be tempted to say that American individualist anarchism should simply merge with its parent, and another article could be constructed for earlier, anti-market individualist anarchists (i.e. I think that article needs to be torn apart as well). I think a better name for a split is to an "Anarchism (pro-market)", since I believe that's the biggest schism. Still, this leaves "national anarchism" out, which both supports a racial hierarchy and opposes capitalism; this could be listed either as a controversial issue within anarchism or in my own preference listed additionally as a disambig. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 01:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Here's how I see it...what is considered the most popular definition of Anarchism? Let's say that it's "an end of hierarchical rulership". That means we can't include certain forms of anarchism on the main page, such as Anarcho-capitalism, which only considers States (coercive monopolies) to be rulers. That's fine, we put those forms on the other page. For the forms of anarchism that do go on the main page, we just have to include their disagreements as far as what constitutes a "hierarchical rulership". As far as the other page, I don't think we should call it "pro-market", because that seems to imply a contradiction ("we want anarchy, but um we still want a market"), which is POV. Instead, the other page is simply defining anarchy in different terms. By calling it "Anarchism (anti-State)", we can include Anarcho-capitalism and the other forms on that same page, and perhaps discuss why some forms see the market as a ruler and other forms don't. The descriptions of the forms that were already mentioned on the main page well of course be brief; the point is to show that this particular definition includes many forms of anarchism under its umbrella, but it is not the only definition of anarchism used. This seems like a fair solution...thoughts?--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 03:21, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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::Oh, so it's just as often that anarchism means no government? I guess you agree with keeping anarcho-capitalism then. Regardless, you're not clarifying the issue; you've just pushed up the dispute. People will disagree about what constitutes hierarchical rulership. Does keeping people off my sofa when I'm not using it count? Anarcho-communists would say yes, individualist anarchists would say no. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 00:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Even when it does refer to a lack of "government" it remains open-ended, since "left" anarchists maintain that capitalism is a system of governance, not in the rational-legal way you might be accustomed to but in the sense of the definition of government as "a group of people that rule a country or area". I'm not sure that individualist anarchists would deny your example as a form of hierarchy so much as consider it an example of an acceptable hierarchy. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 01:39, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Ah, so not all anarchists oppose hierarchy. Btw, should I move what I posed on the mediation page to here? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 01:43, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::As I've actually said elsewhere, I'm not opposed to "market" anarchists calling themselves anarchists. The problem is that it's actually a fight for the legitimate use of the term itself. Market anarchists consider themselves the "true" anarchists, just as left libertarians might consider themselves the "true" libertarians, and that's the only reason why they continue to pursue the term at all. Simply putting them together in a single article isn't feasible, because although they might use the same word they're not philosophies that are compatible with one another. If you'd like you can move things from the mediation page, but I've decided to only respond to comments that I feel are cool-headed. I'm also not very likely to respond to lists, because they break my concentration, and take me too long to generate a response. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:29, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::Of course anarcho-capitalism is not compatible some of the other anarchist philosophies. Like we've been trying to tell you, anarchism is not one monolithic movement. There is vast diversity ''and disagreement'' within it. That two strands may be inconsistent is no reason to remove one. Now, are you saying my post on the mediation board was not cool-headed? All I did was list facts. If you don't like it being revealed that you came into the topic ill-informed and without reading the archives, and that you told a falsehood regarding anarcho-capitalism's status on Google, maybe you shouldn't have done them? As a sysop, you have a special obligation not to do these kinds of things; don't turn around and try to take the high ground here. I'm sorry for making a long list and including 18 links (not including articles), but you were clearly wrong in so many ways that I had to organize them so that chance observers can better understand the dispute. However, I don't believe your excuses for why you won't respond. If this is such an important matter, and the truth is on your side, you'll take some time off from writing sociology an pataphysics articles to respond. As is stands, neither you nor anyone else is willing (or, most likely, able) to explain how the article is POV. That's certainly a shame, but it doesn't justify the neutrality warning. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 02:46, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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== Mediation ==
 
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I've [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation#Anarchism|requested mediatiation]] regarding this article again. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 21:08, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:LOL! Do you realize how long the dispute betweem those that have been trying to limit that article to communist-based anarchism and those who want it to include all types has been going on? Go through through several years of talk archive for more information. Good luck! [[User:RJII|RJII]] 21:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
::Yes, I do. And did you know that for the vast majority of that time, this article has been "limited" to "left-wing" anarchism? [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 21:55, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Has it? I wasn't aware of that. That's unfortunate. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 01:03, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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::::This seems totally out of control. Wikipedia articles should be about fact, not how people felt about certain movements or ideas. If a large group of people called themselves anarchists, or were called anarchists widely in the press, and did something of historical note about it, then they should be included somewhere in the article. Whether or not something is "true" anarchism shouldn't enter into it, we're not here to judge. Geez Louise, folks! [[User:Jberkus|Jberkus]] 01:00, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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:::::The issue isn't what or what isn't "true" anarchism, it's about having the article reflect more accurately what people generally use the term to mean, and, if the word is being used in two distinct ways, to separate accordingly (in the same way [[libertarian socialism]] is split from [[libertarianism]], despite the former's contention that they are the "true" libertarians). [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 01:13, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::If you want the article to reflect how people "generally use the term," that's easy. Most people generally use the term to refer to any philosophy that is against the existence of government. {{unsigned|65.2.38.145|27 August 2005}}
:Well, I just find it highly ironic that Wikipedia, one of the most successful "anarchist" collaborations on the Internet, can't find consensus on an article on Anarchism. From reading some of the Talk archives, this is because a few people want to use this article as a form of historical revisionism, presumably to push forward a political agenda. Thank goodness this doesn't happen on articles like the Seven Years' War. [[User:63.195.55.98|63.195.55.98]] 16:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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== Issue and Movement Anarchisms ==
 
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The list of schools was getting really out of hand. A lot of the so-called schools were sub-branches of the main schools, or issue-oriented combinations like anarcho-feminism and green anarchism. So I fixed it. It used to be this way a few weeks ago, until someone changed it without discussion.--[[User:216.118.117.90|216.118.117.90]] 02:34, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
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== Black Anarchism? ==
'Eurocentric'?
 
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It seems to me that the claim that anarchism has been 'white centered' is simply historically innacurate. Almost all of the predominant anarchists of the first and second wave were russian, italian, and spanish - none of which would have been viewed as white at the time. Another strong faction, the jewish anarchists, were barely viewed as human! Indeed, anarchism in the US was viewed as an immigrant movement. Looking at a hundred and fifty year old movement, through today's racial lenses is dishonest.
 
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Furthermore, three of the most succesful anarchist movements were in Korea, Japan, and South Africa, countries that even today wouldn't be considered white. There's also no lack of theorists from every continent; though it's no surprise that european anarchists texts have been preserved and are more accesable in english. It seem to me that the author has more of a grudge with contemporary anarchism, and is trying to back it up with sloppy historical claims. This is the bullshit line that neo-marxists peddle to back their 'anti-imperialist' racial politics, in an attempt to make middle-class white anarchist kids feel guilty.
 
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Finally, can this be considered a seperate movement? Why is it called 'black anarchism' when APOC represents latino/a's, asians, pacific islanders, and other "non-whites" as well as anarchists of african decent? And if this is considered a distinct movement (which I'm ok with) whose anarchism can be said to root in racial identity, than certainly only people like Ashanti Alston who actively associate with it would be part of it, not someone like Sam Mbah, who is an anarcho-communist whom just happens to be black.
 
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This section is incredibly sloppy, I've edited it some. Will finish later.
 
--Shevek
 
:I agree with you 100%. "Black anarchism" here is a theoretical constuct used in the writings of a few black anarchists. I find the notion that it is a separate school of thought to be racist, but I've been overruled. :P --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 13:19, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
::Even if it were racist, that wouldn't preclude it from being anarchism. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 17:55, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Perhaps by your own definition of anarchism, which seems to be more closely related to most definitions of "anarchy". [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 20:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Also by the definition offered by all three encyclopedias listed in the external links. Anarchism is simply opposition to all forms of government in favor of voluntary relations. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 22:13, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::The phrase "all forms of government" you use would include to me any form of racial power structures, and not simply "legitimate" rational-legal government structures. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:16, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::We went over this in the archives that you did read. If you want to expand the definition of government that far, it would also cover "worker's councils" and "community decision-making" that "true anarchists" support. Me, I like it when words have meaning. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 02:33, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::"Racial power structures"? Black Anarchists oppose "racial power structures." What are you talking about? [[User:RJII|RJII]] 03:46, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Seeing as racism is a social relationship between two people (the opinions of just one person are bigotry, racism is bigotry applied), it seems unlikely that anyone would consent to being the object of racism. Thus racism is by defenition coercive, and non-anarchist. --Shevek
::::::What does it mean to be the object of racism? Merriam-webster defines racism as "1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2: racial prejudice or discrimination." Surely a belief is not the act of engaging in coercion. And, choosing who one decides to associates with is surely not coercion either. On the other hand, forcefully expelling individuals from their own property is coercion. And, I haven't seen Black Anarchism advocate that. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 23:42, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
::::So, are you trying to argue that racists can't be anarchists? Read the current talk page and the article beginning. Bakunin and Proudhon were adamantly racist. Of course, you probably already knew that, so I don't even know why you're bringing this up. If you like, I can purge all references to Proudhon and Bakunin. Then you would be consistent. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 00:17, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
:No, that's not the point at all. National "anarchists" advocate more than just bigotry, they advocate coercion and hierarchy based on race, which is unanarchistic. And whoever told you that anarchism meant 'no government' is an idiot. The rejection of government is the outcome of anarchist principles, not the axiom. - Shevek
::Calling for the extermination of the Jews and expulsion of non-Slavs from Slavic areas isn't coercion and hierarchy based on race? Btw, are you saying that most dictionaries and academics are idiots? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 01:13, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:::Do you really trust dictionaries to comprehensively explain this topic? Also, note that dictionaries state that anarchism is in opposition to ''all'' forms of government, and that that word isn't in there by mistake. It is there to clarify that an ''inclusive'' rather than simplest possible definition of government shoud be used, whereas you continue to limit the meaning of the word to "rational-legal government" as per common usage. For example, one way to define government is "Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution." [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 01:35, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::So you can't run a business if you're an anarchist? Yeah right. And, what does it have to do with black anarchism? [[User:RJII|RJII]] 02:05, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Of course you can run a business if you're an anarchist. Just like you can pay your taxes if you're an anarchist. And it doesn't have anything to do with black anarchism, which as I've said I'm still neutral on. We've drifted off-topic, and I don't see that as a problem. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::The famous individualist anarchist, Lysander Spooner, owned the [[American Letter Mail Company]] that competed with the U.S. Post Office. So, according to you he wasn't as anarchist. That's fine if you want to believe that, but just make sure you don't put that POV of yours into the article. Business is not government. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 02:28, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I don't see exactly where I said he's less anarchist. Individuals in fact hardly concern me, because it is impossible to expect anyone can be "100% anarchist", 100% authoritarian", "100% feminist", or anything else. If a dictionary states that anarchists are against any form of government, that business management is a form of government, then the only conclusions I can generate to satisfy anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism are: 1. anarcho-capitalism is against business management 2. the dictionary is inaccurate or poorly interpreted. If it's poorly interpreted, please explain how. Otherwise, please quit pretending that you [[Wikipedia:NPOV tutorial|don't have a POV]], or that your point of view is somehow more "neutral" than anyone else's. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Where is this dictionary that says "business management is a form of government?" [[User:RJII|RJII]] 03:14, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::::Let's get this straight. Anarcho-communists and syndicalists are not the only anarchists. Traditional individualist anarchists explicitly support free enterprise, wage labor, and a free market economy. So let's drop the notion right now that anarchists are opposed to business. Now, you may deny that individualist anarchists are anarchists, but that's your own personal POV and it doesn't count for anything as far as editing the article. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 03:19, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::More importantly, such an interpretation would mean most forms of anarchism on the current page, including and especially anarcho-communism and syndicalism, would have to go. Is that what you want? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 02:24, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::How do you mean? Do anarcho-communists and syndicalists actively seek an eventual utopia you would qualify as a government? Even if a government body of some form is the means, it isn't the ends. The means are only the necessary tools to achieve the ends, and their simple utilization doesn't imply to me an active support of them. An anarchist might work, but out of a neccessity, rather than an actual support their employer. This does not make them pro-business or pro-government, and nor does an organized movement, which exists again simply for necessity. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 02:59, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::Syndicates have a government. Communes have a government. (Under this broad definition.) As for it being "okay" because it is a means to a utopia, no. Everyone wants a utopia where everyone can get whatever they want. That certain anarchists want that does not differentiate them in any way. And my claims have nothing to do with making compromises necessary to survive. The syndicalists and communists' desired system itself has government. Be consistent. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 03:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
The problem with your line of argument is that you confuse the person for the idea. There aren't bakuninists, nor proudhonists. Bakunin had many authoritarian ideas, and proudhon many liberal ideas, but anarchism still takes from the cream of their writings. The fact that any one anarchist was racist doesn't mean much as far as the ideology is concerned.
 
Anarchism isn't a rejection of government. It's a rejection of coercion and hierarchy. Thus anarchists reject, just as fundamentally as government, patriarchy, and racism - the active form of bigotry. To say that anarchism is simply no government is simply innacurate, and ignores causality. No actual, literate anarchist would say that (not even a non-state capitalist).
 
My confusion with the supposed 'anarcho-capitalists', is that they claim to reject violence and coercion (basic, basic, libertarian theory) - thus making them anarchists - and yet they think that people will consent to being a wage slave. This obviously explains the absence of any working class anarcho-caps. It's an ideology for peope who don't work real jobs. - Shevek
 
:Sorry, but the anti-hierarchy stuff only applies to anarcho-communists. Individualist anarchists never mention "hierarchy" and would not oppose "hierarchy" unless it's coerced upon someone. Not all anarchism is about egalitarianism. A lot of people come here assuming that there is only collectivist/communist-based anarchism and apparently you're one of them. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 05:16, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::What? Your train of thought only makes sense if you assume that 'anarchism=no government', making anti-statism the common denominator. But that isn't the case at all. Anarchists of every form have a lowest common denominator as a rejection of 'coercion' (or invasion if you follow Tucker). How exactly hierarchy can exist without coercion is baffling. How would the rich maintain their privelege without resorting to violence (without breaking the 'non agression principle'?). "Anarcho"-capitalism must be at a loss to explain why governments were created, if not as a necessity to protect their privelige.
 
::Anarchism = no coercion. Plain and simple.
 
::Now, if you can show me how privelege and private property (which means: land, factories, the air, the water... ie "the commons" - as opposed to personal posessions, ie. my house, my car, my bed, my blanket)can be maintained without coercion, other than simply wishing it so, than yes, you'd be an anarchist. As I assume you can't, which is why you try and peddle the nonsense that anarchism=no government, then hierarchy is non-anarchistic. This isn't to say that any number of schemes that aren't communistic can't be anarchist - mutualism is anarachistic (mainly), collectivism is, primitivism is, hell, even ativism is; simply that anarchism is by implication anti-hierarchical. - Shevek
 
:::RJII can probably handle the historical issues better than I, but I will say this: you're making an error in logic I see frequently in assuming away the need for coercion to enforce a certain property system - and yes, you are advocating a property system there. (Search for "meta-aggression" in the archives if you wish to see how this topic was handled before.) The problem with your position is this: yes, ''if'' everyone agrees that personal possessions are the only valid property, then sure, you won't need coercion to enforce it. But in the exact same fashion, if everyone agrees that neo-Lockean "sticky" private property is a moral system of property, then you won't need coercion to enforce that either! In reality, there exist people who oppose the former ''and'' the latter, so ''both'' systems require some coercion. The question is, ''which'' kinds of coercion are acceptable. Is it acceptable to take someone's stuff because he's not using it? Is it acceptable to prevent someone from taking something he needs to live? Both property systems result in types of coercion that are offensive to some. You're just assuming away problems with your philosophy. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 02:30, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::::You do present a seemingly more valid argument, but you are oversimplifying anarchism. Anarchism seeks to create a society that has no need for coercion, that doesn't mean that all anarchists are pacificts. Of course some amount of coercion is needed to create any system. The difference is though that anarcho-capitalism creates its own antithesis (and i'm not even a historical materialist, i think marx is full of shit). Private property is dependent on coercion. This isn't a theoretical argument, as much as historical. Police, crime, prisons, exist because inequality breads reaction - and claims of ownership in the face of poverty result in counter-claims and violence.
::::The smarter "anarcho"-caps get around this by agreeing in the need for police, as long as they are privately owned. How exactly this differs from a feudalist semi-state, and how police an opperate with non-agressions elludes me. The contradictions in a truely free-market are too unstable, and the level of coercion needed to maintain authority is unwieldy. This is precisely WHY the modern state isn't free-market capitalism. By incorporating alot of marxism, liberal state-capitalism attempts to stabilize laizze-faire capitalism into a sustainable system. Anarcho-caps seem to pretend that this whole period of human history simply didn't happen.
::::So yes, anarchism may require some level of initial coercion (without playing semantics since you are right, what you call coercion is my self defense, and vice-verca) but anarchists don't shy from that. Anti-state capitalism though is unsustainable. Either those with power will stick by thier principles (which is highley unlikely) and let unions form, which will ultimately expropriate the owners if unrestricted; or the rich will have to form organizations of joint coercion, which (again without playing semantics) is close enough to a government to nullify the anarchist signifier. I'm honestly interested to hear in how you would get around this problem - Shevek
:::::Again, you show that you're not familiar with the other side of anarchism ..the individualists. Here is a quote from 19th century anarchist Victor Yarros: "Anarchism means no government, but it does not mean no laws and no coercion. This may seem paradoxical, but the paradox vanishes when the Anarchist definition of government is kept in view. Anarchists oppose government, not because they disbelieve in punishment of crime and resistance to aggression, but because they disbelieve in compulsory protection. Protection and taxation without consent is itself invasion; hence Anarchism favors a system of voluntary taxation and protection." [[User:RJII|RJII]] 01:39, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Okay, these boards aren't really for debating the merits of different philosophies, but I rarely turn down chances for this kind of discussion, so here goes -
:::::First of all, that anarchists want a society without coercion differentiates them from nobody; everyone wants such a society. The question political philosophy attempts to address which kinds of coercion are acceptable so long as desires conflict. If we were in an anarchist world right now, someone would still try to take more than his fair share, and coercion would have to be used against them. So again, claiming that private property requires coercion gets you nowhere - your system does as well.
:::::As for inequality engendering a reaction that requires a government to suppress, realize that again the same argument works against your system. First, recall that humans inherently have vastly different abilities to satisfy the desires of others - in other words, productivity varies greatly. Now either you can reward people in proportion to their productivity - meaning you sacrifice endorsement of egalitarianism - or you can reward people equally. Let's say, then, that you reward them equally. Setting aside whether this problem of "underpaying" people itself is theft - and there's much to be said there - people will start realizing that they can earn more by leaving the region and going to work for a capitalistic region. At that point you can say, "oh yeah? Well, in ''my'' vision of anarchism, there are no capitalistic places to flee to!" but realize what this implies. It implies that you have to get the overwhelming majority of the world to agree to anarchism to implement it, while anarcho-capitalism only requires that the majoriy in a small region accept it. In that respect, anarcho-capitalism allows for more community autonomy than tradiitonal anarchism.
:::::So how do you keep people from fleeing? Wouldn't that require a government? (In fact, every place that has tried to implement a gift economy, has suffered massive flight.) Moreover, people within an anarchistic region would try to "circumvent" the official distribution scheme and trade directly with each other. Like in prisons, a currency system would develop and with it, people charging interest. (Note that they wouldn't need enforcers, just as the current credit system doesn't.)
:::::As for anarcho-capitalists "not allowing" unions, that's false. Of course unions could form as long as they agreed to leave when their employers no longer wanted them. They could thus go on strike simply by refusing to show up for work. So that leads to the question: Why would anyone not revolt in the face of inequality? Well, realize that if the legal system treated everyone the same, and adhered to the principle "if the initial allocation of resources is just, and all exchanges are voluntary, the outcome in necessarily just", then I suspect people would respect the results of others' trades because not doing so would make the results of their own trades "fair game". In the extreme case, if people were really unwilling to respect large-scale possessions like a factory, those having them built could just embed them with explosives so that they could render it useless if it were taken over (after, of course, warning those inside so no one is injured).
:::::But of course, this all just devolves into the realization that might makes right - if people are mostly unwilling to respect neo-Lockean sticky private property, it won't prevail; if people are mostly unwilling to respect possession, it won't prevail. As I've described above, however, socialist systems have the same potential for instability. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 20:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== A modest proposal ==
 
I feel that we are listing too many minor schools of thought. Not just national anarchism, but some of the others I've never heard of outside of this page. I propose that we confine all "Schools of thought" that yield <1,000 google results to a small See also section for space-conserving and aesthetic reasons. The 1,000 mark is purely arbitrary but is probably a good benchmark for whether something is very notable or not. (If a school is known commonly by more than one name, we should add the results.)
 
This would affect the following schools:
*Small-a anarchism
*Spiritual anarchism
*National anarchism
*Technological anarchism
*Utopian anarchism
 
Ecological anarchism passes if we add the results for Green Anarchism (the more popular term). Post-left anarchy passes if we add Post-left anarchism. The rest pass outright.
 
A note to my detractors: this is not a back-hand attempt to remove national anarchism, which I will continue to do in any case. :) --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 13:34, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
 
:As a more modest proposal, how about 200 hits. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 17:41, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::And that would accomplish nothing. Thank you for being such a helpful user. --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 22:37, August 23, 2005 (UTC)
 
:::I'm willing to compromise. How about 500? [[User:RJII|RJII]] 22:45, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:Gee, I wonder where you got the idea to remove those ... [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anarchism#Ultimatum_for_those_removing_national_anarchism]. Anyway, if you want to remove all non-notables, that's fine. Just one suggestion though. When keywords A and B refer to the same ideology, you should add them up, not by their independent search hits, but by the totals from searching for "A and not B" and ";B and not A", otherwise you'll inflate the total. Also, I don't see why you picked 1000. National anarchism is the highest ranked one under that. Kind of reveals an agenda.
:Also, if you want to put them as "see alsos" you should put national anarchism on the list. If you don't want to, you'll have to explain a reason other than non-notability to exclude it, which so far you've been unable to do. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 00:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::I would include national anarchism there with a disclaimer. No agenda - my biggest beef with national anarchism's inclusion is it's lack of notability, and to be frank I've had the same problem with these others but was reluctant to take action due to a certain sympathy with their ideas. Notice how this would not affect anarcho-capitalism which I consider to be equally non-anarchist and equally flawed theoretically. I have regretfully conceded that anarcho-capitalism is notable and should be covered under the Schools section. But that is another story. Also: if you already suggested this (I'm guessing you did from the link) forgive me - I no longer have the patience to read everything on this talk page. --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 06:52, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
 
:::I mentioned those topics and their non-notability in a post that you responded to! The link above to it is no longer working. This one will though: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anarchism/Archive24#Ultimatum_for_those_removing_national_anarchism]. See the third to last post, which apparently you ignored to pursue a personal attack. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 00:39, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::::Personally, I agree on removing "anarchist" movements which are largely fictional. However, I don't think counting Google hits is a good way to do it; we need some research on whether the varietal actually had adherents (like, more than 10). Counting Google hits is going to mod up terms which are used by modern groups with web skills (even if it's only one person with 16 domains) over movements of historical significance. Of course, that's just my opinion. [[User:Jberkus|Jberkus]] 00:49, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== Anarcho-Fascism & Fasco-Anarchism ==
 
There is no information relating to these two ideologies which have been around since the early 90s. There is not much information given that they are relatively new ideologies and controversial - however Anarchism and Fascism both have similar origins although they differe in their platform.
 
 
<i>I think a lot of us would be interested to know in what possible context that claim could even begin to make sense.
 
:Hm? I don't see that in the article. If you see anything promoting "anarcho-fascism" a.k.a "national anarchism" in this article just remove it immediately.
::National anarchism an anarcho-fascism are different things. The former exists, the latter doesn't. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 01:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
:Btw, is this another "if you include anarcho-capitalism, you have to include anarcho-fascism" troll? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 01:11, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== The bug ==
 
Can an administrator with some technical knowledge fix this somehow? --[[User:Tothebarricades.tk|Tothebarricades]] 08:58, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
:Administrators only have access to maintenance functions. You could try locating a developer, but it'd probably be easier to report the problem on [http://bugzilla.wikipedia.org/ this]. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 09:44, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== Rank hypocricy ==
 
Why is that libertarian socialists are not allowed a section on the 'libertarianism page', and yet anti-state capitalists cry out when they aren't given room under anarchism? Seems highely hypocritical to me. - Shevek
:The claim, evidently, is that "libertarianism ''usually'' implies anti-socialism". Although with that attitude, it's a bit surprising when the same people object to the claim that "anarchism ''usually'' implies anti-capitalism". To argue that pro-capitalist anarchism is more widespread than anti-capitalist libertarianism seems like a joke to me as well, unless of course you live in the United States.
 
:On the French Wikipedia, the article on [[:fr:Libertaire|libertarianism]] was redirected to anarchism after being considered synonymous; meanwhile the article on "[[:fr:Liberté politique|Libertarian politics]]" makes no mention of capitalism, although does discuss its relationship to anarchist communism. The Italian article on anarchism only briefly mentions capitalism, so as simply to say that anarchists fight it in order to ensure egalitarian society. The German article on [[:de:Libertarismus|libertarianism]] discusses both, although seems to weight it more towards "left" libertarianism, suggesting it is the more common use. The German article on [[:de:Anarchismus]] says that anarchism is a philosophy that opposes all hierarchy as oppressive, and that eliminates class differences. Anarcho-capitalism is mentioned twice, and hardly as a "major school" of anarchism. It is first described in brief (as a "so-called" anarchism), and later listed as being a "hybrid" form (along with anarcho-syndicalism and anarcha-feminism), a mix of capitalism and anarchism. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 22:04, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
::As an [[anarcho-capitalist]], I would be fine with splitting the page into two parts: Anarchism and Anarchism (anti-government). Can't everyone agree that this makes sense, given that we have two different definitions of anarchism? One definition seems to be anti-hierarchy, and the other is anti-government. We can debate about which definition is more popular, but frankly, that seems like a waste of time. Let's just go ahead and split the page into two parts, and then we can decide later if the Anarchism page should be a disambiguation page, or if it should be the more common definition (and I don't really know or care what the more common definition is. I just know that the articles will be better if they acknowledge the fact that there are two definitions).
::That being said, it is very POV to say that Anarcho-capitalism is a "so-called" anarchism or that it is a mix of capitalism and anarchism. Supporters of Anarcho-capitalism would say that you can have capitalism without government, and since anarchism is a lack of government, true capitalism ''is'' anarchism. Regardless of whether you agree with this POV or not, it should be presented from a NPOV on the Anarchism (anti-government) page. Anarcho-capitalism can be left off of the Anarchism (anti-hierarchy) page completely.
::So, if anyone disagrees with me, please tell me why. I do not think we should have a page called Anarchism (pro-market), because "pro-market" is not part of the Anarchism (anti-government) definition, and it would mean that certain forms of anti-market Anarchism could not be referenced on that page, even though they are anti-government.
::Looking through the discussion archives, it seems like we have way too many arguments about what Anarchism is. Why not simply have two pages, in order to indicate that there is a difference of opinion about the definition of Anarchism? Shevek, when you say, "Anarcho-capitalism must be at a loss to explain why governments were created, if not as a necessity to protect their privelige.", that is a perfect example of what we should ''not'' be discussing. Your opinion, as well as my opinion, on whether or not Anarcho-capitalism can explain why governments were created, is irrelevant. On Wikipedia, our job is to describe ideas, not to judge them (except in terms of notability, and Anarcho-capitalism clearly passes that test).--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 02:39, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I'd say calling it "so-called" anarchism is strongly POV, I was just trying to express the attitudes people in Europe have towards both subjects so as to draw a parallel. I'm in agreement with you, since the whole problem is about two sides defining the same thing differently, or even interpreting the same definition differently. You can push and fight over what it means, but you can't exactly appease people that way. I'm willing to admit that I have a point of view. But it's a little hard to come to an agreement with someone who continually denies that they do. I for one appreciate your civility and willingness to actually attempt to work towards a solution. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 03:17, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::I think the article is pretty much NPOV as it is now. No other encyclopedia has multiple definitions of anarchism. Anarchism is the lack of all forms of government. The problem that seems to come up from time to time is people equating anarcho-communism with anarchism, when anarcho-communism is simply one form of anarchism. Apparently they're only aware of that form of anarchism, so they look at the tenets of anarcho-communism such as opposition to private property, uneven wealth distribution, etc and assume that a philosophy must have those views to be anarchism, when nothing could be further from the truth. Witness individualist anarchism, which is in direct contradiction with anarcho-communism by supporting private property, wages, and unequal wealth distribution. The problem comes down to a lack of exposure, on some editors' parts to anything but communist-based anarchism. The solution is not to split pages up, disambiguations, and other antics, but to educate --not all anarchism is about collectivism, cooperation, and egalitarianism. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 02:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
::::I'd be careful about stating that the conflict is between "anarcho-communists" and people who support private property. You shouldn't presume that those who have a problem with anarcho-capitalism listed here are anarcho-communists. I for one am post-anarchist, meaning in fact that I reject every other philosophy listed here, even if I can identify with and support the attitude of most other groups. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 03:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::That's not what I stated. I said that the conflict is based in a lack of knowledge. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 03:55, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::I'd say the conflict is based in a lack of agreement, and that you're simply attempting to dismiss it by considering everyone who feels differently than you an anarcho-communist with a POV problem. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 04:18, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:What do you mean libertarian socialists are not allowed a section on libertarianism? If you want a section, you put one in. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 01:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
::I don't think that's quite what was meant. You couldn't exactly just add a left libertarian section to that article in its current state, since it's already whittled its definition of libertarianism down to a pro-capitalist position, directly stating that the article is limited to pro-market classifications. In other words, the article would have to be reworked entirely to incorporate both points of view, which would make it an awful mess. Although that might give you a new perspective on the condition of this article, and would at least make for consistency, I'd much rather opt for a solution that leaves both sides content. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 03:02, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::I did put one in and it was deleted, very quickly. And the article isn't nearly as open for addition as Anarchism, since it leaves no room for amiguity. And what exactly is your proposal for a solution that would make both 'sides' content? Libertarianism for just capitalists, and anarchism for both? Again, rank hypocracy. - Shevek
::::No, my proposal is the same offered by blah99 above. The splitting of the anarchism article into those who define it as the abolishment of hierarchical structure, and those who see it as simply the abolishment of rational-legal government. This seems to me the key matter of the dispute. In this way the article would be the reverse of the libertarianism article, and no longer hypocritical. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 05:59, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::There are two "balanced" solutions to this. Either Anarchism becomes soley for the libertarian left. Or Libertarianism adds a section mentioning how libertarian is synonymous with anarchism in most other countries. - shevek
::::::I know, but I prefer this one, for a number of reasons. One is that some groups that wouldn't be denied as anarchists (namely post-anarchists and post-left anarchists) don't exactly fit well described as left libertarian (rejecting both socialism and capitalism). It also would mean two different articles in constant conflict, which I don't think would be resolved simply because of the removal of this issue of hypocrisy. With splitting there wouldn't be any need to worry about how the articles are balanced between competiting ideals. I believe both libertarianism and libertarian socialism are better articles for their split, because at least they're specific enough people can work on them without worrying so much about tipping the article over. It would mean both could expand with less editing friction (for instance, the anarchist (anti-state) article could include topics such as [[agorism]]), and neither would be recognized as the "true" anarchism, although they could still present arguments to that effect. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 07:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== totally disputed ==
 
I have changed the POV header to totallydisputed. In its present state this article is not only POV but factually misleading (I believe intentionally so by the POV-pushers).
 
My problems: "National anarchism" doesn't exist as a philosophy. It is a trojan horse (or, if you will, a marketing device) for white supremacist/neo-nazi/fascist ideology in order to appeal to a younger, more politically progressive demographic. It is deceptive by its very nature and has no relation to anarchism. Historically fascism/nazism/racism has been the polar opposite of anarchism, which it is. This article is so muddy that the reader never is given a chance to understand this.
 
"Individualist anarchism" is a synonym for American libertarianism which already has a page. There is no reason to hijack this article to those ends as well except as an attempt at POV pushing. The fact that the subheading is continuously placed at the top of the section by RJII et al is evidence of the bad faith of the edits.
 
Until these problems are solved the totallydisputed tag should stay. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 18:20, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:"Individualist anarchism" is not a synonym for libertarianism; neither is anarcho-capitalism. Libertarianism encompasses both anarchist and minarchist factions, which differ on whether there should be no government at all or a minimalist one. [[User:Dtobias|*Dan*]] 18:51, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
 
:Classical individualist anarchism is not a synonym for libertarianism. However, libertarianism was synonymous with that in the late 19th century and the early to mid 20th century in America. Today, libertarianism is a "synonym" for the newer forms of individualist anarchism whose adherents have dropped the classical labor theory of value and adopted the subjective theory (e.g. anarcho-capitalism)..as most modern economists have. However, classical individualism is still popular. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 22:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
:We've been over this a hundred times. Like Dan or Dtobias said, individualist anarchism is not libertarianism; I have no idea where you got that. I also don't know where you got that anarchism has been the opposite of racism. Like we've been repeatedly mentioning on the talk page, Proudhon and Bakunin were adamantly racist. If you want to hold your position, you need to wipe all references to Bakunin and Proudhon as well. Nor does your Trojan horse claim have merit. National anarchism is alive in multiple countries, independent of one another. Now that you know the truth, I'm sure you will modify the tag. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 20:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::You are either deeply misinformed or lying. You are the only one making edits regarding "national anarchism" (hey, strikingly similar to "national socialism", huh? And has about as much to do with anarchism as nazism has to do with socialism). Your POV pushing and fascist vandalism of this page must cease for us to make any progress on this article. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 21:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::What are you talking about? My last edit on this article was regarding [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anarchism&oldid=21661694 Edmund Burke]. I don't think I've ever removed or inserted national anarchism; I've just talked about it on the talk page and failed to elicit rational justifications for excluding it. And how an I misinformed? Are you denying that Proudhon and Bakunin were anti-Semitic? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 22:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::What are you talking about? On the [[National anarchism]] talk page I have just suggested that it be reworked as [[Anarcho-nationalism]] so that it is less focussed on [[Troy Southgate]] - who I have put back in the [[list of anarchists]] along with [[Georges Valois]], [[Hubert Lagardelle ]], (both members of the [[Faisceau]], the [[French]] [[Fascist]] Party) and [[Stewart Home]], whose early experience with anarchism has fuelled his critique of it... Is "anarchism" such a fragile concept that it can only be protected by hiding some of its history? [[User:Harrypotter|Harrypotter]] 23:46, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 
All I can say is, fuck this article and everyone that ruined it, most notably the human slime above this comment.
 
:There must be some way this issue can be resolved. The article isn't that bad, and anarchism is not that hard to define... it's just hard to get anarchists to agree on the definition. -- [http://uk.geocities.com/james.doran10@btinternet.com james]
 
:One could argue that intelligent design is merely a "marketing device", used by creationists to market their ideas as science. Should we censor their view? Or should we describe the controversy, as [[Evolutionism]] does? I, for one, am not afraid to present the views of my opponents in a fair way. I say, if the view of an opponent is moronic, I don't need to point that out to anyone or censor it; instead, I'll let their view speak for itself.--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 19:46, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
::I agree wholeheartedly that "intelligent design" is a marketing device. The difference here is that creationists&mdash;crucially&mdash;are not permitted (or have no interest in) defining what Darwinism means. They have their separate and rival theory of the origin of species and supporters of evolution have theirs; an analogy here would be anarchists and capitalists (or anarchists and fascists) with separate rival social and political theories. However in this case one of the sides is trying to redefine what anarchism is, distorting its history and diluting any meaningful discussion to the point of semantic hair splitting. Whether Proudhon held any allegedly anti-Semetic views is '''entirely irrelevant''' to any discussion of modern anarchism, Mr. "anarcho"-Nazi up above is merely trying to divert discussion and muddy arguments to the point of stalemate. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 20:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
:::I see it as irrelevant as well. No one person can really be expected to fully represent a social philosophy or social movement. If Emma Goldman freaked out and gruesomely killed someone, or Leo Tolstoy stood accused of sexual molestation, I don't see how this would stand as an argument for anarcho-cannibalism or anarchist rapism as a form of anarchism. It would simply mean that they compromised their own values, and not even necessarily intentionally. Unless you can show that anti-semitism was a part of anarchist doctrine itself, I don't see how it's relevant. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 21:04, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Proudhon ''definitely'' considered anti-Semitism an integral part of his philosophy, and there's no way you can claim it was unintentional. This wasn't a loaded accusation, or something he did in a moment of passion. It was something he really believed. Now if you want to claim that in most of his adherents, the racism has become taboo, that's fine. But some do claim to have philosophies decended from his views through a continuous line, and they ''are'' racist. You can't just wish them away. Would Proudhon say that your rejection of anti-Semitism and chauvanism was a distortion of ''his'' philosophy? [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 23:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::I'm not even arguing about that yet. The section that I removed doesn't even attempt to relate it to anarchist philosophy. And even if a prominent anarchist did integrate racist beliefs it into his writings, it isn't significantly relevant to anarchism as a whole unless a number of his followers adhered to that part of his writings. Otherwise they remain simply his own ideas, and belong on his own page. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 00:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:::The accusation is not that Creationists are trying to redefine Darwinism; the accusation is that they are trying to redefine science. Evolutionists and creationists could argue all day about what science is, and if ID is a scientific theory or not. They would go around in circles, just like us. The solution is not to find the right answer, but to find the right question. In other words, the question is not, "Should we present the controversy or not?" The question is, "On what page should we describe the controversy?"--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 21:10, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
::::Well, sure. I think it's relevant to his own article. You could probably dig up dirt on just about anyone calling themself an anarchist. But in a discussion of anarchist doctrine at large, it does seem inappropriate. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 21:19, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
:::::Oh, sorry about the confusion, but I wasn't trying to argue that an anarchist having racist beliefs is relevant. Rather, I was arguing that National anarchism should be included if it meets the "notability" test. Whether it is a "marketing device" or not is irrelevant, just as the argument that "Intelligent Design isn't science" is not a valid reason for keeping it out of the appropriate page, which is [[Evolutionism]]. We can argue about what the appropriate page is, but to argue that National anarchism is a "marketing device" is inherently POV.--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 21:53, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
::::::OK, well I just went ahead and removed it then. I would agree that removing "National Anarchism" simply because it is perceived as a "marketing device" is a an obvious POV. Although that's not, of course, to say I consider it a form of anarchism either. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 22:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:Well, [[Emma Goldman]]'s comrade, [[Alexander Berkman]] did attempt to assinate [[Henry Clay Frick]], which was part of his anarchism - [[propaganda by the deed]]. It is not a matter of whether Proudhon 'allegedly' held antisemitic views, the fact is he did. It is not a matter of 'digging up dirt', he was proud of his nationalism. It is not that he is 'accused' of this or that crime, but rather that he held political views which were reactionary, and that he linked his understanding of the cause of liberty with his nationalism. Likewise it is not a matter of Bakunin getting caught secretly vandalising Jewish graves, but of mobilising anti-semtism against Marx. Similarly, [[Rudolf Rocker]]'s racism appears precisely in his theoretical anarchist writings, such as ''Nationalism and Culture''. Nowadays we have [[Bob Black]] - a man not adverse to using the term 'towel-head' as a term of abuse for Muslims - promoting [[Post-left anarchy]] and other anarchists adopting [[New right]] themes, such as [[Euromayday]]. Now if anarchists want to produce an anarchist encyclopedia, fine, but there is no reason why they should have a monopoly on defining anarchism on wikipedia. Personally, I have been a lifelong opponent of nazism, so I find the suggestion that fascists are trying to define anarchism here as somewhat bizarre (unless the person who described me "human slime" is of that ilk, of course). Looking at the [[Darwinism]] page, it of course includes a reference to [[Eugenics]]. Does this unsavoury connection invalidate Darwinism, or does it put in context which shows how reactionaries can take up arguments which others regard as proressive? (When I get the chance I hope to add some stuff of [[Psychological Darwinism]]).
:What seems to be happening here is that some people want to create an uncritical account of anarchism because they are uncomfortable about certain aspects of anarchism both in the past and in the present, which they would like swept under the carpet. Save that for anarchist propoaganda sheets please.
 
:Other items need to be changed i.e. "Some anarchists form black blocs at protests, in which members of the bloc wear black and cover their faces to avoid police identification and to create one large solid mass. Bloc members confront and defend other protesters from the police, set up barricades, and sometimes engage in the destruction of corporate property." This is very one-sided as sometimes black blocs initiate a fight with the police and then disappear, letting other people face the violence of the police (On occasions this maybe down to agent provocateurs}. Even within @narchist circles, the Black bloc is contentious. Also check the link to the National Autonomists of Germany on the [[National anarchism]] page. They also use the Black bloc![[User:Harrypotter|Harrypotter]] 22:53, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
::If you're referring to the paragraph I removed, this was done because it specifically described the views of two individuals, and doesn't even attempt to relate itself to anarchism as a broader movement. I call it "digging up dirt" because it's dirt now; at the time I'm sure their opinions were quite a bit more acceptable. If you would like to argue that anarchism at large was anti-semitical at some point in its history, then it might be appropriate for this article. Otherwise it should be restricted to the pages of these anarchists individually. In the treatment of a history of anarchism, it is best to examine the values of the philosophy itself, rather than the values of individuals who claim to adhere to it. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 23:31, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
::I've decided that I simply have to agree with Mr. Potter. If you look at the [[Disambiguation]] page, it says, "Do not disambiguate, or add a link to a disambiguation page, if there is no risk of confusion." If I go to the Anarchism page, and I find "National Anarchism", would I really be confused? National Anarchism alleges that it is a type of Anarchism. Similarly, if I went to a page called "List of Scientific Theories", I would expect to find "Intelligent Design" there, but perhaps in a sub-group called "Controversial Theories". The fact is, there's no mistake that National Anarchism is ''supposed'' to be a system of rules in which there is no government. Whether you believe that it actually is or not is ultimately irrelevant. Of course, using that logic, Libertarian and Libertarian Socialism should really be merged, because they both declare "liberty" to be their highest value, but they define "liberty" differently. You know what? I'm fine with merging those two pages as well.
::I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying the opinion of many here that "National Anarchism" is not really anarchism, and we can call it controversial. But we should not split the Anarchism page into two pages, because, clearly, all of these theories claim to be based on the same Greek roots, and they all describe a political system that does not involve government, even though they define "government" differently. Can we honestly call the inclusion of controversial types of Anarchism confusing? If not, then I say let them be.--[[User:Blah99|Blah99]] 23:32, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== Edmund Burke, revisited ==
 
I didn't change the mention of Edmund Burke this time, because I wanted a little more discussion first.
 
:Thanks for being one of the first people to discuss something RJII and I favor before removing it. That's how Wikipedia works. You don't like how something's portrayed, you iron out your differences on the talk page to see if there's a good reason to change it. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 23:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
The problem: Burke anonymously writes an article that explicitly advocates the absense of government; upon discovery that he is the article's author, Burke dismisses said article as satire. Enter Murray Rothbard, et al. Rothbard maintains that Burke dismissed the article for political reasons. Ergo, Burke was an anarchist. Did I cover this well enough?
 
:No. See below. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 23:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
My opinion: if Burke dismissed article, so should history. Therefore, the mention of Edmund Burke in the "Modern Anarchism" section is inappropriate. He was always most aligned with "conservatism," and whatever anarchist tendencies Burke is purported to have had should be ignored.
 
MrVoluntarist justifies inclusion with the following:
:(1) Burke wasn't advocating absence of government, but he ''did'' write the article.
::'''Response''': My point exactly; Burke never argued for absence of government except in this article, an article he publicly dismissed.
:(2) Burke dismissed article for political reasons.
::'''Response''': All the worse for Edmund Burke. That's between him and "God, or Athena, as the case may be." He dismissed the article, so should we.
 
Plain and simple: no one possesses the mind of Edmund Burke in a jar. Anyone can analyze Burke's article till he's blue-in-the-face; it's still revisionism to put thoughts in the mind of a dead historical figure.
 
Responses? --[[User:TelemachusSneezed|TelemachusSneezed]] 21:21, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:There is no assertion that Burke was an anarchist. But, the essay he wrote was anarchism. If this article was called "anarchists," I would not allow the inclusion of him, but it's called "anarchism." I don't think it's proper to call him an anarchist, but obviously he did entertain the concept. And, I'm sure the essay had some influence. If it wasn't the first such essay I probably wouldn't include it in the article, but since it was the first, I think it's historically significant. [[User:RJII|RJII]] 21:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
:First of all, you are leaving quite a bit out. That the essay advocated anarchism ''is'' relevant historically. The article never says he believed it throughout the rest of his life. Further, scholars other than Rothbard have noted that Burke's style in ''Vindication'' was identical to that used in his other serious works, which again casts doubts on his claim of satire.
:But more importantly, ''other anarchists'' were influenced by the work. Godwin hailed ''Vindication'' as a precursor to his viewpoint. One of Warren's associates reprinted it in 1858 with comments in the margin, and Tucker praised and reprinted it in ''Liberty'' in 1885. I think that's more than enough to make it relevant to the history of anarchism.
:And by the way, the Athena comment was a reference to your name, Telemachus. [[User:MrVoluntarist|MrVoluntarist]] 23:49, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 
== Beyond Repair ==
 
This article is beyond repair at this point. It has reached a point of consistent vandilism from a political perspective that is a vast minority within an already vast minority in one country (whom for some reason seem to have tons of time to bum around online). The ideas in this article are incompatible with the 'anarchism' in almost every other langugae. Here are some basic semantic issues that this article has to address, going to keep this short.
 
1) The first sentence defines anarchism as "no rulers". Then later on it's defined as opposition to government. These terms are not at all mutually exclusive. In many ways this article is blatantly hostile to the notion of "no rulers". The defenition of anarchism in this article is outright hostile to that of both the person who coined the term, and 99.999% of all people (historically) to call themselves anarchist. It isn't even an issue of a 'balanced' approach anymore. Should anarcho-capitalism be mentioned, sure. Should it be presented (and Tucker presented) as the dominant theme behind anarchist history and theory. No. Maybe some day, when there following gets out and does shit in the real world as opposed to internet vandalism.
 
2) Extreme POV. Calling Tucker "tolerant", and those who disagree "intollerant".. as one example out of a hundred.
 
3) Confusing the person for the idea. This isn't bakuninism or kropotkinism or tuckerism, it's anarchism. Thus modern anarchists accept some ideas of theirs, while rejecting others. Just because bakunin was anti-semetic doesn't mean anarchism is tolerant of anti-semetism (he was alot of other fucked up things to). I've raised this point before and no one has felt inclined to respond.
 
4) Deliberate confusion of the term individualist. Luigi Gaelleni (pardon my spelling), as one of the best known individualist anarchists, and Malatesta, as an anarcho-communist, represent the traditional tension between anarchocommunism/platformism and individualism. Claiming that individualism is capitalist simply because a handful of anarchists in ONE COUNTRY use that term is deliberately decietful. Again, 99% of all individuals who consider themselves anarcho-individualists (or anti-organizationalists) would also consider themselves anti-capitalist (historically). This is not even mentioned.
 
My proposition is that this article is mainly used to discuss anarchism, not as a ground of attack by a-caps. An honest look at historical material (i would know, i'm a historian) would show that 99% of all people who call themselves anarchist identify with the anticapitalist tradition. Should other positions be mentioned, sure. But let the article reflect the majority viewpoint historically, not the viewpoint of the people who are priveleged enough to bum around on wikipedia. The libertariainism article (which is 180dgs hostile to the article in other languages), and the anarcho-capitalism article already give justice to the other perspectives. It would seem that the real goal here is to choke the left anarchsit perspective - Shevek
 
:I agree. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 13:46, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
:I think it's extremely clear from reading the article that most anarchists oppose capitalism. Every type of anarchism that's listed is indicated as opposing capitalism other than anarcho-capitalism (modern individualist anarchism). [[User:RJII|RJII]] 13:53, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
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