Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion and National Socialist black metal: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 05:59, 25 October 2005

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{{heavymetal}}

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'''National Socialist black metal''' (also known as ''''NS black metal'''' or ''''NSBM'''') is a [[Neo-Nazi]] subgenre of [[black metal music]] concerned with ideas of [[racial separatism]] and [[Aryanism]]. It is sometimes considered to have started with the work of [[Burzum]]. However, because there is no direct reference to National Socialism in Burzum's early Black Metal compositions, this claim can be, and often is contested. While [[Nationalism]] (or at least [[National Romanticism]]} has been an influence in [[Black Metal]] from early on, NSBM adds a focus on advocating National Socialism as an alternative to modern liberal society. However, while [[Nazi Germany]] was never overtly oppossed to Christianity, NSBM continues the Black Metal tradition of opposition to all of Judeo-Christianity, while placing more emphasis on [[Anti-Semitism]]. Artists in the NSBM scene typically argue that not only [[Judaism]] and [[Zionism]] but also Christianity are major causes for the perceived present troubles of modern [[Europeans]], or ([[Aryans]]), which distinguishes them from many other Neo-Nazis. As an alternative to Christianity, most NSBM bands have advocated variations of [[Paganism|pagan]] beliefs and traditions, with the most common alternatives being [[Ásatrú]] and [[Odinism]]. It should be noted that among Black Metal listeners, interest in Paganism is not restricted to those involved with NSBM. [[Environmentalism]] (see [[Walter Darre]] for a greater understanding of the connection]] and [[Julius Evola|Evolan Traditionalism ]] are also recurring themes.

This page only deals with the deletion of '''stub types''', which consist of a [[Wikipedia:template|template]] and a [[Wikipedia:category|category]], and are intended to be used for sorting [[Wikipedia:Stub|stubs]]. Stub templates that are missing categories and stub categories without associated templates are also appropriate here. '''All other templates or categories nominated for deletion have to be put on [[WP:TFD]] or [[WP:CFD]], respectively.'''

=== NSBM and other Forms of White Power Music ===

==About this page==

This page is for the proposal, discussion, and voting on deletion of '''stub categories''', '''stub templates''', and '''stub redirects'''. By having the vote on these three closely related matters centralised on one page, it reduced the need for repeating identical arguments on several different Wikipedia deletion pages ([[WP:CFD]], [[WP:TFD]], and [[WP:RFD]]) and also reduces the workload on those pages.

Somewhat recently, the NSBM and [[Rock Against Communism]] (RAC) scenes have been uniting, as NSBM is increasingly being sold at RAC and other [[White Power]] music outlets, and NSBM bands such as [[Gestapo SS]] and [[Bannerwar]] have covered RAC and Hatecore songs on their NSBM releases. Additionally, NSBM bands are beginning to perform alongside of [[RAC]] bands.

===Putting a stub type on SfD, and what happens afterwards===

* Mark the affected pages:

** '''Put {{tl|sfd-t}} on stub templates'''

** '''Put {{tl|sfd-c}} on stub categories'''

** '''Put {{tl|sfd-r}} on stub redirects, and include the redirect target after it''' (see [[#Putting_.7B.7Bsfd-r.7D.7D_on_redirects|below]] for details)

* '''List the affected pages on the appropriate section of [[Template:sfd-current]].''' This will let several relevant pages know of the nomination

* '''List the stub type below''' in a new subsection '''''at the top of the section which has the current date'''''. If that section does not yet exist, create it.

** Mention all affected pages in the subheading, like this:<br /><pre><nowiki>==== {{tl|banana stub}} / [[:Category:Banana stubs]] / {{tl|YellowCurvyFruit-stub}} (redirect) ====</nowiki></pre>

** Also mention how many articles currently use the template, and if it is listed anywhere else.

** Of course, state your reason for nominating the stub type for deletion!

* After a voting period of seven days, action will be taken if there is consensus on the fate of the stub type. ''Please do not act before this period is over.''

* Archived discussions are logged per the instructions at [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}/Log]], and are located at [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}/Log/Deleted]] and [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}/Log/Not deleted]]. If the decision is to rename the category or template, the discussion is logged on the "deleted" page, since the stub's name, at least, has been deleted.

NSBM seems to have more appeal to fans of Black Metal who do not hold National Socialist beliefs as compared with RAC, which more rarely can count fans among those who do not favor Neo-Nazi politics.

====Putting {{tl|sfd-r}} on redirects====

Given that the {{tl|sfd-r}} template breaks redirection, it is necessary to change a stub redirect when adding the template, as follows:

<nowiki>#Redirect [[Template:foo-stub]]</nowiki>

should be changed to:

<nowiki>{{sfd-r}}{{foo-stub}}</nowiki>

===Possible reasonsNSBM forand the deletionBroader ofBlack aMetal Scene stub type===

* They are not used in any article, and their category is empty

* They overlap with other stub categories, or duplicate them outright

* Their scope is too limited - As a rule of thumb, there should be at least 50 appropriate stubs '''in existence'''

* The stub category or template is misnamed. In this case, make this clear when nominating and propose a new category or template name. Note that - in the case of a template but not a category - it may be more appropriate to make it into a redirect

* They are malformed, misnamed, or deprecated redirects

''To be added later. ''

===What this page is ''not'' for===

* [[Wikipedia:Patent nonsense|Patently nonsensical]] or [[Wikipedia:No personal attacks|insulting]] stub types - they may be [[Wikipedia:Speedy deletion|speedily deleted]]

* Empty categories with no corresponding template - they maybe [[Wikipedia:Speedy deletion|speedily deleted]] (after 24 hours)

* Malformed stub types to which no further deletion reasons apply - fix them or tell the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting]]

* Stub templates that were not approved by the [[WP:WSS|WikiProject Stub sorting]] (again, unless other reasons apply) - list those on [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Discoveries]]. From there, they may later be taken to this page

* Stub categories that are too large - these are not deleted, even if they get subdivided

=== National Socialism in Early Black Metal ===

===Typical voting options===

* '''Keep''' (do not delete or modify)

* '''Delete''' (delete template and category)

* '''Merge with xx-stub''' (Delete category, redirect template to xx-stub)

* '''Merge with xx-stub without redirect''' (delete category and template, put xx-stub on all articles that use it)

* '''Change scope''' (reword the template, typically giving it a larger scope. Usually also means renaming the category)

* '''BJAODN''' (add to [[Wikipedia:Bad Jokes and Other Deleted Nonsense]], then delete)

''To be added later''

When voting, please try to give a more substantial reason than simply "I like it/find it useful" or "I dislike it/don't find it useful"

===Current listings===

According to {{tl|sfd-current}}, the following stub types are being discussed on this page. If you notice a discrepancy, please [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Sfd-current&action=edit correct the template].

{{sfd-current}}

==Listings==

===October 24th===

===={{tl|Aust-stub}} (redirect)====

Austria? Australia? Austin? Australia, apparently. Made two months ago (without the knowledge of WSS, who would, I'm sure, have turned it down flat), and used seven times since then (three of them for things that weren't Australia-stubs anyway). '''delete'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 10:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' redirects. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 00:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', although I'm glad to find someone else who supports redirects, if people are carelessly adding this thing to non-Australian articles, it's not worth having. [[User:Kappa|Kappa]] 00:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' ambiguous redirects. -[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 02:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', ambiguous. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:46, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

==Well-known bands include==

===={{tl|Fungi-stub}} / {{cl|Fungi stubs}}====

* [[Ad Hominem (band)|Ad Hominem]]

Plural names, which is a little unusual, to say the least. '''Rename''' to {{tl|Fungus-stub}} (currently a redirect) and {{cl|Fungus stubs}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:14, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

* [[Absurd (band)|Absurd]]

*'''Rename''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

* [[Astrofaes]]

* [[Burzum |Burzum]]

* [[Bilskirnir (band)|Bilskirnir]]

* [[Branikald]]

* [[Gontyna Kry]]

* [[Grand Belial's Key]]

* [[Graveland]]

* [[Grom (band)|Grom]]

* [[Infernum]]

* [[Kataxu]]

* [[Kristallnacht (band)|Kristallnacht]]

* [[Legion of Doom (band)|Legion of Doom]]

* [[Nokturnal Mortum]]

* [[Ohtar]]

* [[Seigneur Voland]]

* [[Thor's Hammer (band)|Thor's Hammer]]

* [[Veles (band)|Veles]]

* [[Winter Funeral]]

==See also==

===={{tl|Arch-stub}} (redirect)====

Archaeologist? Archaeology? Architect? Archbishop? Archduke? Archdeacon? Arches? No. This template redirects to {{tl|Architecture-stub}}. I think this one is a bit too ambiguous. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 12:26, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

:Fair enough. ISTR I created this one, but you're right, it is ambiguous and should go (PS - it ''is'' used for arches! :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 12:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

::Shouldn't arches be under {{tl|struct-stub}}? ;) [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 21:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

:::no. strict-stubs for individual buildings and arch-stubs for features of buildings! [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 22:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

::I think you miss Aecis's joke. Arches are under a lot of structures :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:49, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' redirects. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 00:16, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''', horribly ambiguous. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:30, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

* [[Black Metal]]

===={{tl|Canada-edu-stub}}====

* [[Nazi Mysticism]]

talked about on the discovery page. created as a redirect to canada-university-stub using the old name we dont use any more. [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 22:21, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

* [[Nazi Skinhead]]

:Yeah. This isn't speediable, because we haven't has a ''canada''-edu-stub before, but all the other edu-stubs have gone as being too ambiguous (since they refer to universities, not education as a whole) so '''delete'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:54, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

* [[Nazi Punk]]

===OctoberExternal 23rd=links==

* [http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=308 Southern Poverty Law Center report on NSBM ''Sounds of Violence'']

===={{tl|UN-stub}} and its redirect {{tl|un-stub}}====

* [http://www.nsbm.org/ The NSBM FAQ]

One at a time:

* [http://www.thepaganfront.com/ The Pagan Front]

#UN-stub used to be for the United Nations, but since February its scope has been broadened to International organisations in general (it feeds into {{cl|International organization stubs}}. So why the old name? This should be '''renamed''' to {{tl|International-org-stub}} or maybe {{tl|intl-org-stub}}.

#un-stub is a very misleadingly named redirect now (does this mean it's been un-stubbed?) If UN-stub's name is changed it will be even worse. It's only used on about 10 articles, which can easily be re-stubbed - this one can be '''deleted''' (BTW, the old United nations stub category, recently rediscovered, was speedied since it had been empty for eight months) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 09:00, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

: Agree on both counts. Both names are misleading, for different reasons. --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 23:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

* A definite delete on {{tl|un-stub}}, but I think there are enough UN-stubs that are actually related to the UN (at least 40 judging from just the article names) that splitting off a new parent stub for {{tl|UN-stub}} should work reasonably well. (i.e. create {{tl|int-stub}} or {{tl|int-org-stub}} (''.int'' is the ___domain name for international organizations so using just int should be clear enough) feeding into the existing {{cl|International organization stubs}} and then have {{tl|UN-stub}} feed into {{cl|United Nations stubs}}. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 23:59, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''', keep UN-stub as a redirect, but '''delete''' un-stub. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|Jersey-bcast-stub}} / [[:Category:Jersey broadcasting stubs]]====

Used on only 2 articles, even tho it was created 2 months ago. I rather doubt there's near 60 relevant articles. '''Delete'''. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]]

: Way too specific. '''Delete'''. --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 23:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[[Category:Neo-Nazi music]]

===October 22nd===

[[Category:Racism]]

[[Category:Metal subgenres]]

[[de:National Socialist Black Metal]]

===={{tl|Gib-stub}} & {{cl|Gibraltar-related stubs}}====

[[et:Natsionaalsotsialistlik black metal]]

Badly undersized (21, and that's including some locations), not well-named, and has "-related" in the category name to boot. Can't find any trace of this on a criteria, proposals, or discoveries page (aside from Instantnood having just cited it as a precedent). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 21:16, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[[es:National Socialist Black Metal]]

:It was listed somewhere, a long time ago (discoveries, I think - before SFD was up and running). At the very least both category and template need renaming, <s>but unless it suddenly gets a flood of stubs, I'd be just as happy if it wasn't there at all. </s>[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 22:29, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[[fr:National Socialist Black Metal]]

'''Weak Keep''' Just went through all the articles marked with {{cl|Gibraltar}} or one of its subcats and managed to raise this to 40 stubs by marking stub articles with this stub. It's still marginal and I definitely would favor renaming to {{tl|Gibraltar-stub}} & {{cl|Gibraltar stubs}} but this is like Macau and China; by size it's a marginal stub category that would get swamped if absorbed by its parent. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 23:22, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[[pt:Nazi black metal]]

:More to the point, it doesn't really have a parent. We'd need a "British colonies and overseas territories stubs" category for that. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

[[ru:Наци-блэк-метал]]

::We do have a {{tl|BritOT-geo-stub}}, so a {{tl|BritOT-stub}} would be feasible as a parent for {{tl|Gib-stub}}, {{tl|Cayman-stub}}, about a dozen Anguila stubs in {{tl|Caribbean-stub}} or even a replacement to send the stubs to if we get rid of {{tl|Gib-stub}} and {{tl|Cayman-stub}} (currently at 23 stubs). [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 04:15, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|War-stub}} &rarr; {{tl|Mil-hist-stub}}====

More likely to reach threshold with a broader scope, which would also handily serve as a super-cat for battle-, WWI- and WWII-. Note that there ''is'' a Wikiproject, but it's currently debating whether to merge itself, so this proposal seems in keeping with that spirit. :) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. Not because I've got any real love for this template, but because there is currently debate going on about it on three different wikiprojects! It is mentioned on WP:WSS/P and WP:WSS/D as a possible redirect to battle-stub, but we're busy waiting to see whether WikiProject Wars and WikiProject Battles merge (which sounds likely) before doing anything about it. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:48, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' &mdash; the situation with the two projects should be resolved in a day or so, presumably via a merger. However, the more general discussion surrounding this seems to have put the specific talk of where to redirect {{tl|war-stub}} on hold; my personal preference would be to create {{tl|mil-hist-stub}} as above, but if such further cluttering of the {{tl|mil-stub}} hierarchy is a bad idea, it could be redirected to {{tl|battle-stub}} directly. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill Lokshin]] 17:14, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

**I think the 'further cluttering' is a ''good'' idea, myself! The root category, {{tl|mil-stub}}, has only recently dipped below the 800 upper threshold, so a bit more structure on it is a thoroughly good idea, IMO. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

**mil-hist-stub is a problem as hist-stubs been split by country so it would cut through several catagories [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 18:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

***I concur with Kirill with the rename, it's the most accurate rename. But I think (for the reasons Lacertae mentions) we should see it as a subdivision of ''mil'' rather than ''hist''. Thus, maybe {{tl|hist-mil-stub}} may make more sense. [[User:The Minister of War|The Minister of War]] 20:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

****I'm happy with either mil-hist- or hist-mil-. Just put it that way round as {{cl|Military history stubs}} is the most obvious name of the category, and corresponds with the proposed name of the merged WP... Obviously, it'd equally be a sub-cat of both. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 20:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*****The proposed name is Military History (Historical Military doesnt sound half as good :-) ), so i guess {{tl|mil-hist-stub}} would be better then? Also, i've noticed there already is a subdivision on Military History within the history category, so it seems the damage to the subcategories in hist will be minimal. [[User:The Minister of War|The Minister of War]] 21:42, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*I support the creation of the mil-hist-stub. --[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus]] ^{[[User_talk:Piotrus|Talk]]} 00:37, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Support''' the above proposal now that the project merger is complete. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill Lokshin]] 03:09, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. [[User:The Minister of War|The Minister of War]] 09:18, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|Greeting-stub}} / {{cl|Greeting stubs}}====

Too specific, rather doubtful there's near 60 stub articles. '''Delete''' --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 01:49, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Woah. Um....yes. '''Delete'''. Why was this created in the first place? --[[User:WikiFanatic|WikiFanatic]]^{[[User_talk:WikiFanatic|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/WikiFanatic|Contribs]] 5:35, 23 October 2005 (CDT)}

*retag these as socio-stub and lose this stub type, I'd say. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{cl|Catalonia-related stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|Category:Catalonia stubs}}====

Newly created as per WP:WSS/P, but the creator of it didn't realise we've been getting rid of the "-related"s. '''Rename''' now while it's still quite small. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:22, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 21st===

===={{tl|South-Korea-bio-stub}} / {{cl|South Korean people stubs}}====

===={{tl|North-Korea-bio-stub}} / {{cl|North Korean people stubs}}====

Between these two stub types there are only some 90 articles, and considering that - with the exception of fifty years of Korea's exceptionally long history - the two parts have not been divided, it would make a certain amount of sense to merge these into a single {{tl|Korea-bio-stub}} and {{cl|Korean people stubs}}. If the vote is to keep the current set up, I'd suggest losing the first hyphen of the templates and making it NorthKora- and SouthKorea-. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:I created these and agree, a single korea-bio-stub is a better idea. I would have simply deleted these myself and created a unitary one, but I didn't want to bother having to get bureaucratic authorization to do so. [[User:Sarge Baldy|Sarge Baldy]] 15:08, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Speedy deletemergerename''' then, as creator agrees. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|papal-stub}} to {{tl|pope-stub}}====

Afaik, the general format for stub templates is [noun]-stub. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 11:12, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:It is... so '''renaming''' looks like a good idea for this one. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:33, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

::'''Rename''' per Grutness. --[[User:WikiFanatic|WikiFanatic]]^{[[User_talk:WikiFanatic|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/WikiFanatic|Contribs]] 5:18, 23 October 2005 (CDT)}

:'''Rename''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:26, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|bioinformatics-stub}}====

Used once in two months, no cat, v. specialized. '''delete'''? [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 22:43, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' as per nom. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 18:09, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|fictional-place stub}}====

Weve got a fcit-___location-stub and this looks... nasty. '''delete!''' [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 22:51, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

:Yikes! Another of [[User:Maoririder]]'s creations, by the looks of it! '''Get rid of it!''' [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:00, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

:Here goes... now someone can write a article about jggjjfffjlgnflgnegnwghroghorgrhgnfgm,b df,bnfjgofigiorgjrgk,ergnreg and put the stub tag on it. '''Delete'''. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 06:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 20th===

===={{tl|Ug-geo-stub}} (redirect)====

While we're thinking about UGly redirect names, Ug-geo-stub - a largely unused redirect to uganda-geo-stub, fits that bill perfectly. Only three articles use it (two of which are actually university stubs). This one can also be deleted readily. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC) (dammit I hate edit conflicts!)

*Now this one ''is'' confusing. '''Delete''' and/or make a template disambiguation {{=)}} [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup >[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]</sup > 02:59, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*Delete. Though at least it ends in -stub. :) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:36, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

====space+stub redirects====

These redirects:

* {{tl|NYCS stub}}

* {{tl|Hanna-Barbera stub}}

* {{tl|PBS stub}}

* {{tl|Ecoregion stub}}

* {{tl|Dance stub}}

* {{tl|Tennis stub}}

all point to $1-stub, but all are listed at the stub redirects page as a redirect from an alternate name, which they actually aren't - the're just a remnant of a wrong naming convention. They need to be phased out in favor of the properly hyphenated name and deleted. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 10:55, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

:Can we also add {{tl|Cricket stub}}? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

:Why? What's wrong with a redirect? '''Keep''' all. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 19:30, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

*''delete'' SPUI we dont mind redirects if theyre names are right but these ones the names are bad. Hyphens are used on all stub names. [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 23:38, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

**I ask again - what's wrong with these redirects? --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 00:13, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

***Exactly what BL Lacertae says. They're not in line with standard stub redirect naming. They don't have hyphens, which all stubs do, according to stub naming protocol. As such - like all the others which have been deleted here before for the same reason - they should go. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

****What about that makes them wrong '''as a redirect'''? --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 01:04, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*****Their name. They don't follow stub naming rules. [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 01:10, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*****The name is wrong (damn edit conflicts!) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:11, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

******That would be a problem if they were stub templates. But these are '''redirects'''. Read [[Wikipedia:Redirect]]. Learn what a redirect is. Also read [http://mail.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-October/031042.html]. And remove this shit when you're done. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 01:13, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

******* That's besides the point. The point is that we do not need these half a dozen redirects when we don't at the same time have redirects for {{tl|bio stub}}, {{tl|sci stub}}, {{tl|hist stub}} or even {{tl|ST ep stub}}. Keeping these few black goats does not really help much, it may only encourage more of this fodder to appear. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]]

*****doesnt matter if theyre redirects or not the name is still wrong and that page you linked is about articles not templates. and grutnesses changes to the page were putting in something that everyone who uses this page does anyway for newbies who didnt know. if it was just grutness then there wouldnt be redirects on this page listed by me or joy or mairi and the archive has lots of redirects deleted here since the page started, most of them deleted because the names were wrong [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 01:31, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*<del>'''Keep''', redirects are cheap and it's damned annoying having to check each one of these (and similar) for spaces and hyphens before you use it. However, if there '''is''' an established convention for hyphens, move all existing stubs with spaces in them to ones with hyphens. The point of redirects is to make it easier for links to get to their targets - if we start ditching all these redirects, why don't we remove [[Wikipedia:Free links|Free links]] from Mediawiki while we're at it and only allow [[CamelCase]]? [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup >[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]</sup > 02:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)</del> '''Delete''' then. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup >[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]</sup > 16:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

** Yes, there '''is''' an established convention for hyphens. Please see [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Naming guidelines]]. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]]

***Ok. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup >[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]</sup > 16:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

*First of all, I think they're correctly listed here. If redirects to stub-types aren't stub-types for all practical, procedural purposes, I don't know what they are. If we want to cross the t's on this, we can make the wording on this explicit, and double-check with RfD that they're not going to feel horribly cheated thereby. On the merits of retaining them: I think on balance it's a good idea to get rid of them. They don't serve the same purpose as redirects in the article space, and in this case, they're just adding to the impression of stub naming conventions as an ad hoc mess. (It is "stub-stub"? "stub stub"? "stub-Stub"? etc.) Sooner we make these entirely consistent, and get people used to using the canonical sort, the better. There may be other cases in which there's a clearer case for retention, but frankly if they're removed over-zealously, it'll be stub-sorters that end up fixing it, so there's an "on our own heads be it" logic to this being decided here. And lastly, can we please not have edit wars on meta-pages, and come to that, gratuitous incivility? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:12, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

**D'oh, the scope aspect is ''already'' covered explicitly on this page. I'll stop now before I start personally attacking myself. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

***I added it yesterday when it became clear that not everyone knew the scope of this page yet. I'd assumed - since we've been dealing with redirects since this page started and no-one had complained - that everyone knew we'd been dealing with redirects as well. But apparently not, so (as I stated on the talk page) I clarified things. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:56, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

**Yeah, it's here because Grutness just added it here. The point of this page was to combine discussions that had been split between TFD and CFD - a redirect does not have that problem. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 06:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

***It was added because one editor in four months didn't understand how this page works and has worked since it started. Everyone else seems to understand it perfectly well. I decided to clarify things to stop someone else stumbling on the page in February 2006 and thinking something was wrong. Look at the [[Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/Deleted/June 2005#.7B.7BBaseball stub.7D.7D .2F is a redirect|page's earliest archive]] - we've been debating the deletion of redirects here since the day this page went live. That wouldn't have happened if it was only intended for categories and direct templates. And if it was, then there would have been complaints from those watching page deletions as soon as we started deleting redirects. There were none. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

****Nah, I think you're just too wrapped up in your stub sorting shit to realize that '''redirects are useful'''. Got that? '''Useful'''. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 09:19, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*****Grutness, seems a logical addition to me, as per my after-the-fact suggestion. I've left a message at RFD to check they don't consider their turf (or indeed toes) to be being trod on.

*****SPUI, the original motivation was in part to deal with said combinations, but now that we have this as a stand-alone process, it makes sense to consider stub categories without templates, and stub templates without categories, for the simple reason of having related discussion about the same "quasi-namespace" in the one place. If we started listing the former at [[WP:CFD]], the latter at [[WP:TFD]], and the redirects at [[WP:RFD]], people would think we'd gone slightly mad. And then tell us to take it back here, as Grutness says. And again, can we please have a bit of civility of tone? [[User:Alai|Alai]] 15:44, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

***''Some'' redirects ar useful. Others aren't. If ''all'' redirects were useful, we wouldn't have an RFD page. But we do - because some redirects are ''not'' useful. For the same reason, not all stub redirects are deleted. We keep them if they're useful and worth keeping. You've even voted against a stub redirect yourself further down this page - so clearly not all stub redirects are useful. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 10:46, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:40, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 19th===

===={{cl|Author stubs}}====

Created today along with the matching {{tl|author-stub}}. I've redirected that to {{tl|writer-stub}}, as the terms are insufficiently distinguishable. '''Delete''' the category, as it has no use. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 22:47, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 05:01, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

* '''Delete'''. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 00:57, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{cl|Melbourne suburbs (incomplete)}}====

This is probably better here than at cfd - if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks, it's a stub category. Exactly duplicated the just-deleted/renamed {{cl|Melbourne suburb stubs}} (now {{cl|Melbourne geography stubs}}), except with a completely different set of suburbs. This should be deleted, since it's already perfectly well covered by {{cl|Melbourne geography stubs}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 02:42, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Speedy delete''' as G4: "A substantially identical copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted according to the deletion policy." [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 12:58, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

**done. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|AU-depot-stub}} and {{tl|Australia-depot-stub}} (both redirects)====

Both of these currently redirect to {{tl|Australia-rail-stub}}. I'm ambivalent about Australia-depot-stub, but the AU one should definitely go. It's currently fairly heavily used, but after the shifting-around of melbourne and Sydney stubs currently going on it should be a fairly manageable size for re-stubbing and Australia-depot-stub should be almost empty. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''delete''' both and restub articles to use {{tl|Australia-rail-stub}}. I'd be surprised if there are five articles using the word "depot" in them as that is not the word for a railway station here. --[[User:ScottDavis|Scott Davis]] ^{[[User talk:ScottDavis|Talk]]} 01:30, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' redirects. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 03:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''delete''' as Scott says the words not used in australia and au could be anywhere [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 21:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:55, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 18th===

====Rename {{cl|RAF stubs}} to {{cl|Royal Air Force stubs}}====

No need to have an abbreviation in the category name. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 17:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:Fair enough. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:40, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

::Agreed. The abbreviation's fine for the template, but categories should have full names where possible. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 23:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

:::Done. It can be listed at CFD. [[User:Alphax|Alphax]]&nbsp;<sup >[[User talk:Alphax|&tau;]][[Special:Emailuser/Alphax|&epsilon;]][[Special:Contributions/Alphax|&chi;]]</sup > 03:03, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

::::What's done? Not the recategorisation, at any rate, which requires about 150 null edits. The source category needn't be cfd'd, that's why it's listed ''here''. And please also note, from the intro to this page: ''After a voting period of seven days, action will be taken if there is consensus on the fate of the stub type. Please do not act before this period is over.'' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:18, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

:::Alphax - if you try listing this at CFD they'll tell you to take it to SFD. Stub categories are handled here, by the rules of this page. Those rules are there for a reason, so please follow them - including waiting before creating any replacement categories. If ten people suddently voted oppose to this category change (unlikely, but not impossible), we'd have to go through the whole thing again with your newly created category. As it is the old category can't be deleted until null-edits are performed on all the stubs in it, which won't be happening until the voting process is completed. I've (probably temporarily) reverted the template, as there is nothing worse than trying to sort our what needs changing from a whatlinkshere list if a category name has been changed over half way through a stub's use - or for editors to follow the category link on a template only to discover a nearly empty category. That's why we wait, and do the changeover as quickly as possible ''once the voting is over''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:41, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|Wikisite-stub}} / [[:Category:Wikisite stubs]]====

Abit too specific for a stub category. Currently used on 1 article (only created today). '''Delete''' --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 03:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:I disagree, a website is a wiki, but a wiki is not only a website. I am only interested in wikis--[[User:Mac|Mac]] 09:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

::I also disagree... it's not "a bit too specific". it's a ''lot'' too specific. '''Delete'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 12:45, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Pointless, '''delete'''. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 16:47, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:Web is not wiki. This category is usefull for navigation.'''Don't delete'''--[[User:Nonaz|Nonaz]] 19:12, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

::What an interesting [[Special:Contributions/nonaz|first edit]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]][[user talk:Angela|.]] 20:53, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:::Sorry, because of be newbie (I don't live in Wikipedia, like others). I feel spied :( . --[[User:84.121.0.21|84.121.0.21]] 17:57, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

::::catagory:wikisite would be used for navigating anyway. A stubcat is for editors and nothing to do with navigation. '''Delete'''. [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 22:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:Delete template, delete category, and '''strong delete''' of [[wiktionary:sockpuppetry|sockpuppetry]] quite that [[wiktionary:blatent|blatent]]. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:40, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|California County Routes Stub}} / {{cl|California County Routes stubs}}====

A recent discuvery missed out in the previous road discussions below. Is this one needed at all? If it is, surely California-road-stub is a better name... [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 23:53, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:There is a WP that goes with this. [[Wikipedia:WikiProject California County Routes]] However it would be nice to make it singular. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 01:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' as is capitalized per WP:MOS and possibly add hyphens to placate the people who desire them if needed. It's attached to a wikiproject.[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 02:08, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep but rename.'''. There is a WikiProject, and [[List of California County Routes]] shows a l-o-n-g list of non-yet-created, and not-yet-tagged California county route articles. The rename should add dashes, per [[WP:WSS]], and county route should be singular and lower case, per [[WP:MOS]]. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 02:18, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' as is, maybe hyphens. ''California County Route'' is a specific classification. Just as a road could be maintained by the county (rural areas?) but still not be a County Route. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to California-county-route-stub, as there is a wikiproject. Definitely needs to be singular, hyphenated and 'stub' lowercased. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 02:56, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to either California-road-stub or California-county-route-stub; or if all else fails, as a matter of complete-red-line, do-we-have-to-have-a-formal-policy-to-say-it, "end your stub template names in '-stub'", California-County-Route-stub. There's some actual logic to this one, as there's two ''different'' road-stub-cats for California (as opposed to the ones that have come along since, which have only one per state, yet insist on being specific to "State Highways"). [[User:Alai|Alai]] 17:19, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to either California-county-route-stub or California-County-Route-stub. --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 17:58, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to {{tl|California-road-stub}} which can cover both state routes and county routes in California, It would also have the advantage of covering non state or county roads, and even stubs for Interstate highways and US highways in California can be marked with this in addition to {{tl|UShighway-stub}} and {{tl|Interstate-stub}}. And if not that, at least correct the capitalization to {{tl|California-county-route-stub}} [[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] 13:28, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

*There is a distinction between ''California County Route'' and ''California county route.'' The former is in the system; the other is just any ordinary route that runs in the county. <strike>Interstate 5 is a California county route but not a California County Route.</strike> --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 00:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

**That's not what I get from [[county route]]. Interstates will presumably be sorted as such anyway: what roads are there that are "county routes" but not "County Routes" (by which I gather you mean, with that precise phrase in their names), that would be liable to be ''undesirably'' included in a lowercased name? I get the impression that either, a) there aren't any, or b) including them in the stub type would be organisationally ''useful''. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

***Sorry, that was a really retarded example I gave. Here is another: Spruce Street is located out in the rural country, away from any major city. It is a residential street (residential because 2 people live on it). In fact, it is a dirt road. Would it be a county route? After all, it is maintained by the county... and it implies that people can write Wikipedia articles about their rural residential streets. Also, this stub goes with a WP- and the WP considers County Routes to be numbered. (A17, etc). --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:13, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

****Fair enough. :) Given the apparent state of my brain this evening, I can't really cast any stones. I would have thought it ''wasn't'' a "county route" in the sense of the [[county highway]]/county route/county road article, which uses exactly the definition you have in mind (as I understand it, at least), but doesn't capitalise it. Obviously in the case of simply -road-, what you say would be quite true, and seems to me to be broadly desirable. (If there ever got to be a ''lot'' of these, then re-splitting in more specific terms would start to make more sense.) Though I do think the existing, on-going WP should have a certain degree of latitude here in scope of definition, so I'm not gung-ho in favour of -road- in this case, though I'd personally mildly prefer it. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 03:27, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

==Old business==

<!-- END OF COMMENT PHASE -->

<div class="boilerplate metadata" id="Old Business" style="{{divstyleamber}}">Everything from here on down is old business; the current 7-day review period has ended. Everything from this point on should be dealt with and removed from the workflow. Move ''this'' marker up as time passes.</div>

===October 17th===

===={{tl|Nebraska-stub}} and {{cl|Nebraska stubs}}====

Created at the beginning of the month. had four stubs 9two of which were geo-stubs). I added the category, just so that articles didn't get "lost" while this debate was going on. No known WikiProject. '''Delete''', as per precedent of other such state-stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 09:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*Sorry about that; I should have looked into the standards for stub creation. My bad. '''Delete''' &ndash;[[User:Swid|Swid]] 15:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|Music Video-stub}} &rarr; {{tl|Music-video-stub}}====

Only created today and used twice, but there is a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Music Video|wikiproject]]. '''Rename''' to standard capitalization and hyphenation, tho. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 04:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:agreed. '''Rename'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 04:51, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

====Irregularly named US-road-stub sub-cats====

The following were all created via process, it must be said, but are nonetheless erratically named (routes, roads, highways? Caps? Hyphens?), inconsistently used (non-highways in titular "highway" categories, and where only one "road" category exists per state), and in several cases, well below the usual creation theshold (supposedly 60ish ordinarily, somewhat less with WP).

*{{tl|Arizona State Route Stub}}. 7 stubs, no WP. '''Delete'''

*{{tl|Kentucky State Highway Stub}}. 10 stubs <s> -- not all even highways. '''Delete'''</s>

*{{tl|Maryland-State-Highway-Stub}}. 11 articles, no WP. '''Delete'''

*{{tl|Massachusetts-State-Highway-Stub}}. 18 stubs, [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Massachusetts]]. '''Rename''' as {{tl|Massachusetts-road-stub}}

*{{tl|Michigan-State-Highway-Stub}}. 24 stubs, no WP.

*{{tl|Missouri-State-Highway-Stub}}. 0 stubs. '''Delete'''

*{{tl|Nevada-State-Highway-Stub}}. 31 stubs, no WP.

*{{tl|New-Hampshire-State-Highway-Stub}} 83 stubs. '''Rename''' to {{tl|New-Hampshire-road-stub}}.

*{{tl|Nhroute}}. 0 stubs, no category. '''Delete'''

*{{tl|Washington-State-Highway-Stub}}. 45 stubs, not all "State Highways". '''Rename''' to {{tl|Washington-road-stub}}.

[[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to {{tl|Kentucky-road-stub}}. [[Audubon Parkway]], [[Louie B. Nunn Parkway]], [[Wendell H. Ford Western Kentucky Parkway]] and [[William H. Natcher Parkway]] are officially designated Kentucky State Highway 9005, Kentucky State Highway 9008, Kentucky State Highway 9002 and Kentucky State Highway 9007, respectively. There are currently only 10 as the project is just getting started. We had new members join this past week to help out. Once underway, there is the potential for approximately 120 stubs at even given time--but once the project has accomplished its goals, I would see that the stub wouldn't necessarily be needed as {{tl|US-road-stub}} could be used for any new highways created by the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet--which doesn't happen often. Renaming to {{tl|Kentucky-road-stub}} will follow stub hyphenation presedence, alleviate confusion on the Parkway vs. Highway naming convention and provide for the segregation of KY road stubs from other state projects. Thanks for pointing out the naming convention disparity. I agree it needs to be cleaned up. '''>:''' [[User:RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">'''Roby Wayne'''</span>]] ^{[[User talk:RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">Talk</span>]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">Hist</span>]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:green">E@</span>]]} 02:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' {{tl|Nhroute}}, {{tl|Missouri-State-Highway-Stub}} as they are not used. As for the ones with stubs but no WikiProject, a move was underway to build a "catchall" project for roads that didn't have a state-related WikiProject. '''>:''' [[User:RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">'''Roby Wayne'''</span>]] ^{[[User talk:RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">Talk</span>]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Special:Contributions/RobyWayne|<span style="color:blue">Hist</span>]]&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|<span style="color:green">E@</span>]]} 02:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:I created it, see below. I did populate the missouri stub today. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 04:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' for consitency. They were created as part of the state highways wikiproject I do believe. I'd say "highway", "route", "road" etc should stay the way they are as long as they are consistent with the way the respective states name them. Different states have different conventions on how to name their state highways and that should be reflected in these stub names. However the capitalization needs to be changed. An example is {{tl|Maryland-State-Highway-Stub}} which should be capatalized {{tl|Maryland-state-highway-stub}} since it is not a proper noun, the others should have thier capatalization changed accordingly as well. Also "stub" should be lowercase and hyphens should be used to be consistent with the way other stubs are named.

My exact votes are:

* <s>{{tl|Arizona State Route Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Arizona-state-route-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Kentucky State Highway Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Kentucky-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Maryland-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Maryland-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Massachusetts-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Massachusetts-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Michigan-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Michigan-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Missouri-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Missouri-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|Nevada-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Nevada-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* <s>{{tl|New-Hampshire-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|New-Hampshire-state-highway-stub}}</s>

* {{tl|Nhroute}} '''delete''' already one for NH

* <s>{{tl|Washington-State-Highway-Stub}} '''rename''' {{tl|Washington-state-highway-stub}}</s>

(Changed to <nowiki>{{xx-road-stub}}</nowiki> see below)

[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] 02:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Maryland State Highway''' is a proper noun, see [[Talk:List of California State Routes/Archive2]] for a similar discussion. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 03:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' {{tl|Kentucky State Highway Stub}} to {{tl|Kentucky-road-stub}}. Sorry, Roby, didn't realize there was an associated WP in that case. Thanks for the info. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 02:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

<strike>*'''See my votes below''' I realize how weird that sounds but here is the breakdown:

*{{tl|Arizona State Route Stub}}. I'd say rename to {{tl|Arizona-State-Route-Stub}}

*{{tl|Kentucky State Highway Stub}}. There is a WP with this one. Rename for hyphens

*{{tl|Maryland-State-Highway-Stub}}. Needed, see below

*{{tl|Massachusetts-State-Highway-Stub}}. Don't rename.

*{{tl|Michigan-State-Highway-Stub}}. Don't rename.

*{{tl|Missouri-State-Highway-Stub}}. I haven't gotten around to populating this category since I've been populating the other categories... but I did tonight.

*{{tl|Nevada-State-Highway-Stub}}. Keep.

*{{tl|New-Hampshire-State-Highway-Stub}} Keep as is

*{{tl|Nhroute}}. This is NOT a stub category. Therefore it goes to TFD. I dislike this since we have {{tl|routeboxnh}}.

*{{tl|Washington-State-Highway-Stub}}. Keep, there shouldn't be other roads in here (I got lazy).

</strike> See my new votes below.

All of these stubs DO have a WP- [[Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads]]. Also, {{tl|US-road-stub}} has over '''500''' pages, something needs to be done...

Eventually there will be WPs for all 50 state highway systems, so we will need stubs for these projects...

--'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 03:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*I think these ought to have been proposed individually; this discussion is getting far too confusing. '''Delete''' the mostly unused ones without WikiProjects. '''Rename''' {{tl|Washington-State-Highway-Stub}} to {{tl|Washington-road-stub}}, {{tl|New-Hampshire-State-Highway-Stub}} to {{tl|NewHampshire-road-stub}} and {{tl|Massachusetts-State-Highway-Stub}} to {{tl|Massachusetts-road-stub}}; as they don't have ''specific'' wikiprojects, there's no reason to make them overly specific. At the very least, '''rename''' all other kept ones to StateName-state-highway-stub (or StateName-statehighway-stub). --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 04:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' the unused ones. '''No opinion''' on {{tl|Nhroute}} stub until someone tells me what a "Nh route" is (some weird abbreviation of north?) '''Rename''' all the others to either Statename-road-stub or Statename-state-highway-stub (preferably the former, as it's more all-inclusive - and there's a proposal at WSS/P to create some regional US-road-stub types anyway, so it would make a lot of sense (Highway wikiprojects notwithstanding) to combine what would be pairs of fairly small categories into larger (but still not huge) categories. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 04:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

**'Nh' is the miscapitalized [[U.S. postal abbreviations|postal abbreviation]] for New Hampshire; so it's be New Hampshire routes. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]]

***Gah. Should have guessed. Ridiculous stub name. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

****{{tl|Nhroute}} is not a stub... but I'd like it gone anyway. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' It should be noted that these stubs are not for roads in these states but specifically for their [[state highway|state highways]]. Like I said before we should be using whatever convention each individual state uses for its state highways such as {{tl|Maryland-state-highway-stub}} and not {{tl|Maryland-road-stub}} for [[List of Maryland state highways|Maryland state highways]] and {{tl|Arizona-state-route-stub}} for [[List of Arizona state routes|Arizona state routes]]. As for {{tl|Nhroute}}, it belongs in tfd but I say we cut out the middle man and just get rid of it.

[[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] 12:40, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

**Except that firstly, that's unduly narrow: ''why'' are they restricted to state highways only? Surely this just makes an already fiddly split of US-road-stub even more so, and delays them getting over a reasonable threshold for sensible creation. Where they have WikiProjects ''specifically'' on the State Highways of that state (and I'm tempted to add, actual active ones with more than than just one member) that's partial justification, but stub categories for seven articles, is silly either way, and moreso with no WP. And secondly, they ''already'' contain more than just state highways, and Rschen (main perpetrator and defender of this naming scheme) has said he uses them that way anyway. So unless, as with California, more than one stub category can reasonably be created per state, inclusive is surely the way to go, and inclusive categories should have inclusive names.

**You're right about Nhroute: I assumed it was intended to be a stub template of sorts, as it appears in the corresponding stub category. I'd move it to tfd, but if it gets "erroneously" deleted here first I won't be sad. :) [[User:Alai|Alai]] 16:06, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

***There are no such state inactive ones with only one member. The only one is the US Highway one... people are working on the US Roads one. It's like the Highway one... it just holds things together, and sets a standard for things... like a Wikipedia namespace page for example. Also note that there are over 500 stubs in US-road-stub, and there are over 50 articles in a few of the categories above... --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

****Please keep the threading intact, and in particular, don't post in the middle of two not-separately-signed paragraphs. I was actually thinking of [[Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads]], which has one (1) member, and has already been used by you as a justification for under-sized stub-categories. You've made the point about there being 500 road-stubs before, but how is that material to the proposal here? Firstly, that's not even "over-sized" by the usual metric: they only "have" to be split when they're over 800. Secondly, my proposal would make very little difference to this, as the only ''deletions'' I've proposed are for categories that are frankly ''tiny'': a grand total of 28 between four categories at time of nomination. And thirdly, I've already proposed an alternative, [[WP:WSS/P#.7B.7BUS-midwest-road-stub.7D.7D.3B_.7B.7BUS-northeast-road-stub.7D.7D.3B_.7B.7BUS-south-road-stub.7D.7D.3B_.7B.7BUS-west-road-stub.7D.7D|here]], which would clearly be much more effective in reducing this, and without the need for 50 separate Wikiprojects just to justify nearly as many tiny stub categories, and without have to "eject" non-state-highways back into US-road-stub, as is the logic of your scheme. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 17:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*****The purpose of the state highway WPs are not just for the stub classifications. If you look at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject California State Highways]], you will see that there is much more involved in a WP than just the stubs: a routebox, structure, state law, etc. And the purpose of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads]] is to get these other WPs started using the same format as all the other ones, and to coordinate the launch of these separate WPs so we aren't overloaded (so we're not doing 50 WP's at once). --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 03:18, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' all stubs using Jeff's outline above. --[[User:K1vsr|K1vsr]] ([[User_talk:K1vsr|talk]]) 14:27, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to foo-road-stub. Someone interested in expanding an article about a state highway in a state should also be interested in other highways. Redirect the old names. Redirects won't kill you. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 17:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' and '''Rename''' all the ones requiring hyphens. Also keep the capitalization on them per the arguments previously held over whether is is a "California State Route" or the incorrect "California state route".[[User:Gateman1997|Gateman1997]] 02:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' to <nowiki>{{xx-road-stub}}</nowiki>. Per Alai's comments I change my vote to rename these to <nowiki>{{xx-road-stub}}</nowiki>, since the topics of state highways for each state are too narrow to have a stub category for, but as for all the roads in each state, that's a different story.

:And since I've seen this mentioned a couple of times already I thought I'd just add that since California state route, Maryland state highway, etc. can be used as the subject of an indefinite article ([[California State Route 99]] is '''a California state route''') and can be pluralized ([[Maryland State Highway 2|Ritchie Higway]] and [[Maryland State Highway 3|Crain Highway]] are '''Maryland state highways''') they can't possibly be refering to an ''individual'' person/place/thing, and therefore are not proper nouns. [[user:Jeff02|-Jeff]] 20:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:Except for the fact that there are specific State Highway WPs... except for the county routes anything below a state highway gets sent to AFD (Ladner Trunk Road?) so I don't see the point in changing the templates... and some states don't have county routes. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' stubs, per Alai. '''Lower case''' for state route, state highway, etc. per Jeff02. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 00:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

**''California State Route'' is a '''specific''' type of highway. Just like U.S. Highway 101 is an interstate highway, but it is not an Interstate Highway. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:17, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

***California state route is a specific '''type''' (or group) of highway, but it is NOT a specific '''thing''', so it is still not a [[proper noun]], no matter how much you think that it is. Go ask your English teacher if you don't want to listen to what anyone on the Wikipedia says. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 02:27, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

:From [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions]]: "Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but not Computer game)." Even if you do not consider ''California State Route'' a proper noun (which it is by the way), it is almost always capitalized, and this is why the Google test was performed on [[Talk:List of California State Routes]]. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:36, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' I'd say that we should close this debate and split things up, this is too confusing. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 02:01, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

**I agree. It seems that some (myself included) have somewhat different stances on each one of these. --[[User:Engleman|Chris]] 13:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

***Some people have managed to note their different stances fairly concisely. There may be a case for refactoring at least the discussion from the vote, and if strictly necessary, the votes themselves, but IMO that's hardly a justification for "closing" anything. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 17:52, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' The Missouri stub now has 25 articles. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 03:29, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Since this is such a mess, let me quickly summarise my preferences in order now that there's been a load of discussion:

#delete any not used

#{{tl|StateName-road-stub}} would be my first choice for all the rest - there is no need to restrict these to a specific type of road

#Failing that, {{tl|StateName-state-highway-stub}} or StateName-state-route-stub, or whatever, depending on local usage. Hyphens,and all lower case except for state name.

(This also applies to the {{tl|California dusty trails stub}} or whatever it's called, further up the page).

[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm slightly changing my votes:

* Nhroute '''delete'''

* KY- rename to -road-stub... if the leader of the WP wants it then thats ok

* Leave everything else as it is, with addition of hyphens. --'''[[User:Rschen7754|Rschen7754]] ([[User_talk:Rschen7754|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Rschen7754|contribs]])''' 00:09, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

*whatever happens they need a small s on stub and hyphens. same as all other stubs. This votes very confusing. Should it be splitted up? [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 05:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 16th===

===={{tl|SA-stub}}====

I propose renaming the abbreviated {{tl|SA-stub}} to the unabbreviated {{tl|SouthAfrica-stub}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 22:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:SA's one we've been turning a blind eye to... but you're probably right - and what about SA-geo-stub? Given that a saudi Arabia geo-split is likely soon (and there's already a South Australia geo-stub) it's probably a good idea. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 23:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Rename''' them both, and likewise, {{tl|SA-mil-stub}}. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

:We have a {{tl|Saudi-stub}}, so this isn't needed for disambiguation, but as long as it's done on all of the RSA stubs including {{tl|SA-road-stub}}, I have no objections to a '''rename'''. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 23:18, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

::Well technically {{tl|Saudi-stub}}'s name implies that it's only for stubs about the royal family, so that needs a rename too. In any case, simply having Saudi-stub doesn't mean that people won't think SA-stub could be about Saudi Arabia. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:06, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

* Rename it, [[SA]] is just a wee bit too ambiguous. The fact that it doesn't match a country code for South Africa is what tips the scale for me. (Granted, for UK it doesn't either, but that's more entrenched.) --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 16:15, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

: Hmmm... '''rename''' is probably the only option worth considering, though it might take a while to change my habits (it's one of my most-used stub cats). I think ''SouthAfrica-stub'' and ''ZA-stub'' are the best options (I prefer ZA). Perhaps a redirect from the one to the other? --[[User:Taejo|Taejo]] | [[User talk:Taejo|Talk]] 15:33, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

::There are two problems with ZA - first, the naming guidelines specifically say to avoid abbreviations, and second ZA could be every bit as confusing as SA. since it's a Foo-stub form, Foo doesn't necessarily refer to a country name, so ISO abbreviations are too ambiguous. AM-stub isn't about Armenia, for instance - it's about radio (and needs a rename). ZA is a recognised code for South Africa, Zambia, a Chinese language, and a region of Russia. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 05:58, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

===={{tl|Buddhistub}} / {{cl|Buddhism-related stubs}}====

I propose renaming the template to {{tl|buddhism-stub}} (which currently is a redirect to {{tl|buddhistub}}) and the category to {{cl|Buddhism stubs}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 10:51, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' "buddhism-stub". Portmanteau is confusing --[[User:MacRusgail|MacRusgail]] 19:30, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*I support renaming (despite the fact that it's harder to type) ''if'' the XYZ-stub is currently a standard in use for all stub templates. So, that's a '''rename''' if the person who closes this discussion makes a factual judgment that it is a universal standard, and a '''keep''' if the person closing judges otherwise. I do support moving the category, because it's shorter and appears to be the standard on other stub types. - [[User:Nat Krause|Nat Kraus]][[User_Talk:Nat Krause|e]] 09:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

**It is the standard, though it is not yet used for all templates. It isn't currently used for {{tl|Buddhistub}} for instance. But it is used for about 95% of them, and we're working on the other 5%. I suggest you check [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Naming guidelines]]. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 09:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Redirect''' I have no problem with making the base stub {{tl|Buddhism-stub}}, but keep {{tl|Buddhistub}} as a redirect. I like the portmanteau. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 23:11, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

** Renaming will entail a redirect as well, no? --[[User:Spasemunki|Clay Collier]] 10:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

***We don't always keep the old name around, especially if, as in this case, it violates the usual naming standards, which despite the fact I like it, it certainly does. (I would also be in favor of adding {{tl|motorcycle-maintenence-stub}} as a redirect to {{tl|Zen-stub}}.) [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 05:08, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. Per nom. --[[User:Spasemunki|Clay Collier]] 10:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. I already updated my [[Thirteen Tiered Pagoda]] stub. [[User:Mancomb|Mancomb]] 16:44, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''', ditto to above comments. I've started using the new one. [[User:Reaverdrop|Reaverdrop]] 05:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 15th===

====Serbia and Montenegro====

Currently, due to abbreviation and un-debated creation, this whole section is a bit of a mess. Currently we have:

*{{tl|Serbia-stub}} and {{cl|Serbia-related stubs}}

*{{tl|Serbia and Montenegro-stub}} and {{cl|Serbia and Montenegro-related stubs}} (little used)

*{{tl|SM-geo-stub}} and {{cl|Serbia and Montenegro geography stubs}}

As far as I see it:

*the "-related"s have to go.

*We don't need separate Serbia and Serbia and Montenegro categories

*There shouldn't be any spaces in the template name

*For obvious reasons, SM-stub is probably not a good idea.

I propose combining the first two into {{tl|SerbiaMontenegro-stub}} and {{cl|Serbia and Montenegro stubs}}, and keeping the third category but renaming the template as {{tl|SerbiaMontenegro-geo-stub}}. Alternatively, we could have separate Serbia-stub, Serbia-geo-stub, Montenegro-stub and Montenegro-geo-stub templates and equivalent categories.

[[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:55, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

*I'd prefer the four-way split option. Works better for back-projection onto historical articles (ie, pre-Yugoslavian Serbia, Serbian culture etc.) and it ought to be easier to redistribute the latter two categories than the first. ALso, there seems to be a strong sense that [[Serbia and Montenegro]]'s days as a political entity are numbered, with a Montenegrin independence referendum likely to pass next year. -[[User:The Tom|The Tom]] 05:50, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

**I must admit I was thinking the same (about pre-empting the probable political split) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:04, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

*The political split may be imminent, but as long as it hasn't occurred, it shouldn't matter in stub sorting. I suggest {{tl|SerbiaMontenegro-stub}} and {{tl|SerbiaMontenegro-geo-stub}} for articles about the nation as a whole, and {{tl|Serbia-stub}}/{{tl|Serbia-geo-stub}} / {{tl|Montenegro-stub}}/{{tl|Montenegro-geo-stub}} for articles relating to either of the constituent parts of Serbia-Montenegro (iff there are enough articles, the same might be considered for Vojvodina and Kosovo). This mirrors what has been done in {{tl|UK-geo-stub}}: daughters for England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and granddaughters for the counties (right?). [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 11:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

* I don't see any problem with this. Have the categories renamed to omit the "-related", and two sets of stubs for each republic (even if they decide to remain the same country, chances are that it will still be a group of two distinct countries as it is today). --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 00:12, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

**The only problem is the same one with all the categories that are almost totally subdivided - they have to be regularly emptied into their subcategories. otherwise eeverything that should be in the subcats will end up only being put into the main category (I bail about twelve stubs a day from {{cl|Geography stubs}} alone into its subcats). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*** I don't think there is any need for a top SCG geo-stub category, because relatively very few geographical features exist in both Serbia and Montenegro, and those that do can and should be double-stubbed with those two. The top SCG stub category might be useful for non-geographical issues that are shared. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:28, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

====Rename {{tl|Phil-lit-stub}} and {{cl|Philippine literature stubs}}====

The current template name would imply it's for philosophy literature. Furthermore, all 31 articles it's used on are writers. '''Rename''' to {{tl|Philippine-writer-stub}} (or some other more suitable name). --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 03:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

:I think there was some talk of a {{tl|Philippine-bio-stub}} when this was first discovered... Is that necessary, or just the writer-specific one, or both? '''Rename''' to ''something'', anyway. --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 03:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

::Shouldn't that be {{tl|Philippines-writer-stub}} or {{tl|Philippines-bio-stub}} with an 's' at the end?

:::Yes, it should. [[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 05:07, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

::''''Rename'''' to {{tl|Philippines-writer-stub}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 13:48, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 13th===

===={{cl|United States football club stubs}} to {{cl|United States football (soccer) club stubs}} or {{cl|United States soccer club stubs}}====

I created this category in order to reduce the load of {{tl|footy-stub}}. However, I forgot to take into consideration the problems with the term "football" in the American context. The current category name does not make it clear enough that the articles are about what in the US would be called soccer clubs, so I request a rename for this category. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 23:04, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

:Sounds fair... the non-stub category this relates to is "United States soccer clubs", so I'd probably go for that one. Then again... the original proposal had the parentheses... sigh. A rename is definite, but... which to? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 10:46, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

::I'd say {{cl|United States soccer club stubs}} - "football (soccer)" is only really necessary if the category covers an area where both terms are used. [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|<small>#£@%&$?!</small>]] 15:37, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

:::I would say {{cl|United States football (soccer) club stubs}}, for two reasons. Firstly because the article about the sport is called "football (soccer)", and not for instance Association Football (the official name of the sport), and secondly, because the category is a daughter of {{cl|Football (soccer) stubs}}. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 20:07, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

::That's not necessary - there are plenty of articles that say just "football" or "soccer" in the right context. The only ones that don't are those that cover football throughout the world, where either name might be used. See for example, [[:Category:Football (soccer) by country]] - all use one term or the other (apart from [[:Category:Canadian football (soccer)]], which probably ought to be changed). [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|<small>#£@%&$?!</small>]] 19:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:::You're absolutely right about the use of football and/or soccer. And you're also right when you say that it's not really necessary to use the word football. Soccer in itself is clear and unambiguous enough. The category itself imo definitely needs soccer in the name, because it relates to the US of A. I still think that using the word "football" might be desirable though, if just for the sake of some consistency. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 22:42, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 11th===

===={{cl|United States television programme stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|United States television program stubs}}====

''(Was tagged with {{tl|cfr}} by [[User:Jayc]], but not listed on [[WP:CFD]])''<br>

There's been some discussion on the [[Category talk:United States television programme stubs|talk page]]. "Program" is the common spelling in the US, and [[Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#National_varieties_of_English|Manual of Style]] recommends using the relevant national variety of English for country-specific pages. And I can't think of any strong need for consistency in stub category names, unlike templates (although if there is, they could all be renamed to 'television series', which is used by most the main categories). '''Rename'''. -[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 05:02, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

*''Rename''' render unto the US etc etc etc. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename to''' [[:Category:United States television series stubs]] - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 21:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

**Mmm... what about stubs for one-off specials? I think "...programs" is the better name to cover all bases. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

*Definitely rename to '''''program'''''. As for ''series'' v. ''programs'' why not just '''''United States television stubs''''' without narrowing it any moe than that. [[User:Jengod|jengod]] 20:48, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

**Because then you'll get personalities, stations, etc etc etc. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 22:49, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' "program" -[[User:Eisnel|Eisnel]] 17:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

====Australian city stubs, part 2====

I left the two big cities until after the others were done, because they probably need a bot (I did the changeover of the others manually). These changes are as per recent discussions at [[WP:WSS/P#Australian cities]]

=====Melbourne=====

*{{tl|melstub}} &rarr; {{tl|Melbourne-stub}}

*{{cl|Melbourne-related stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|Melbourne stubs}}

This has over 500 articles, so it will need a bot. Mind you, many of them should bein this second category, which currently has only 11 articles:

*{{tl|mel-suburb-stub}}&rarr; {{tl|Melbourne-geo-stub}}

*{{cl|Melbourne suburb stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|Melbourne geography stubs}}

This would bring Melbourne into line with everywhere else on the planet as far as stub naming is concerned, and would be in line with recent changes to the Adelaide, Canberra, and Hobart stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

'''rename''' as suggested. Consistency is good. [[User:Agnte|Agnte]] 16:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

'''Rename'''. Keeps most of Wiki's presentation up to scratch. --[[User:Tetsuya-san|Tetsuya-san]] 00:17, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

=====Sydney=====

*{{tl|Sydney suburb stub}}&rarr; {{tl|Sydney-geo-stub}}

*{{cl|Sydney suburb stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|Sydney geography stubs}}

As above, this would bring Sydney into line with everywhere else on the planet as far as stub naming is concerned, and would be in line with recent changes to the Adelaide, Canberra, and Hobart stubs. This would also probably need a bot, since there are about 350 stubs. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

: If my maths is correct then it will be in the region of 680 "Sydney suburb stub" articles now, since there was a push by myself and others to flesh out the missing suburbs. If a bot can do the changeover then I think it's a good idea, but if they have to be done by hand then I think it's a bad idea that's not worth it. -- All the best, [[User:Nickj|Nickj]] [[User talk:Nickj|(t)]] 07:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

::A shame that push wasn't left until after the changeover, but still (it was announced at the Sydney WikiProject that a change was likely very soon) - currently about 2000 japan-geo-stubs are being changed over by hand, so it would just be a bigger job without a bot, not impossible. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:25, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

'''rename''' for both Melbourne and Sydney for consistency with the other Australian cities. If there are too many Sydney suburb stubs (now a complete set thanks to Nick and others) to rename, I suppose that could be kept as a subcat of the new {{tl|Sydney-geo-stub}}, and dissolved once most suburb articles have grown beyond stub status. No {{tl|Sydney-stub}}/{{cl|Sydney stubs}}? --[[User:ScottDavis|Scott Davis]] ^{[[User talk:ScottDavis|Talk]]} 11:54, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

*None currently exists - and there aren't currently any separate stubs for Perth o Brisbane, which is a bit of a surprise. Hopefully if they're needed the WikiProjects will contact us first, now that they know we exist :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:30, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

**There actually is a (rather-unused) {{tl|Perth-stub}} that's been sitting around on [[WP:WSS/D]] for a month and a half... --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 01:41, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

'''rename''' both as suggested for consistency. --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 00:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''rename''' (redirect or use a bot). - [[User:Ta bu shi da yu|Ta bu shi da yu]] 23:31, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

=====Update=====

Melbourne is done - hopefully someone with access to a bot will be able to change the Sydney ones over. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:25, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 10th===

===={{cl|Party related stubs}} &rarr; {{cl|Political party stubs}}====

This move would do three things: 1) Bring it in line with its non-stub parent {{cl|Political parties}}; 2) remove that word "related"; 3) stop people potentially adding stubs about social get-togethers. '''Rename'''? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:34, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

:I could agree, but it will take a lot of work to do, since one has to visit all these stubs to rename the stub-category. Is there another solution. - [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 08:38, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

::Well, there are two solutions - firstly a bot, since it's obvious which stubs need to be changed, and they would all simply need a null edit (in which case there would be virtually no work); secondly, I've put in a proposal at [[WP:WSS/P]] to split some subcategories off this, which would reduce the number of stubs in the category (in which case the articles would need re-stubbing anyway). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 09:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' for clarity and consistency --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 00:36, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. The new suggestion is much better. --[[User:Valentinian|Valentinian]] 01:25, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 6th===

===={{tl|Eng-club-stub}} to {{tl|England-footyclub-stub}}====

This category should be renamed, according to the guidelines set by WP:WSS/P. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 18:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

*definite '''rename'''. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 23:16, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

*Indeed it should :) --[[User:Joy|Joy <small><small>&#91;shallot&#93;</small></small>]] 11:25, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

====[[:Category:Football (soccer) player stubs]] to [[:Category:Football (soccer) biography stubs]]====

This category contains more biographies than just player biographies. As the category itself says, "while the category was originally envisioned only for players, non-playing personnel (managers, coaches, chairmen, executives) can also be included in this category, as long as they are directly connected to the sport." I think a rename is needed to better fit the articles in this category.. [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 11:48, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

:Renaming for stub categories must be directed to [[Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion]]. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 04:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

:Moved from [[WP:CFD]] missed it earlier. <font color=#000000>[[Special:Contributions/Who|&infin;]]</font>[[User:Who|Who]][[User talk:Who|<font color=#FF0033>?</font><font color=#FF00FF>&iquest;</font><font color=#0033FF>?</font>]] 04:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

**'''Rename''' - good point. There will be managers, coaches, etc in here too. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 06:21, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment''': Perhaps it would be better to keep this category, plus create additional related and daughter stubs+categories. If you look at the category, the first page doesn't even get all the way through the letter A. Someone more familiar with [[fútbol]] will have to suggest the best way to divide up the articles. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font><font color= #F88017>''Verse''</font>]]<font color=#2554C7> </font>[[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F660AB>&empty;</font>]] 11:36, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

**Well, that would be an obvious one, I'd say - by nationality, in much the same way as the clubs are in the process of being divided. A large proportion of the managers and coaches are former players, but there are still some that aren't, and I'd be happier if they were kept in with the main category since the same editors are likely to know about them. I'd go ahead with the proposed move, but consider tallying up what nationalities can be split off. There are some that would just about be guaranteed (England, Italy, France, Germany, Brazil, and Argentina, to name just six). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 11:51, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

***I've gone through about 15% of the stubs (not ''particularly'' randomly), and found: English 59; Scottish 21; Norwegian, Australian 12; Northern Irish 10; Belgian, German, Turkish, Guinean, Brazilian 9; Argentinian 8 (out of 333 checked, of 2206 total). I'd say English and Scottish are fair enough, but the rest are only just big enough to warrant their own stub types. It might be best to split most by continent instead of country: I counted Europe 214 (including Eng/Scot), Africa 54, South America 24, and about 15 for each of the others. This way, the estimated totals for each category would be about: England 400, Scotland 140, Rest of Europe 900 (with possible further splits once we see exactly how many there are of each), Africa 350, South America 170, North America/Asia/Oceania 100 each. (Phew!) [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|<small>#£@%&$?!</small>]] 13:58, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

**Okay, those sound fair splits to me (by continent, plus the England and Scotland ones) - take this over to [[WP:WSS/P]] and run it past everyone there! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...&lt;font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 22:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

***On its way... BTW, I agree with the renaming as well, just to be clear. [[User:Sjorford|sjorford]] [[User talk:Sjorford|<small>#£@%&$?!</small>]] 09:27, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

===October 2nd===

===={{tl|HRF-bio-stub}}====

Apparently for people who recieve the title [[Hero of the Russian Federation]]. Which cuts across standard categories, seems not particularly useful, and has very few suitable articles. '''Delete'''. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 04:52, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

:How does it cut across standard categories? [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 04:57, 2 October 2005 (UTC) (creator of the stub template)

::The standard is to divide by occupation (such as writier, politician and military being common) after dividing by country, and this isn't specific to any occupation. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 05:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

:::That I can agree on. While most of the awardings went to Chechnya veterans or cosmonauts, atheletes and some writters recieved the title. The main reason why I created the template is that not only this is only showing that it is not only a subject that relates to Russia, but it (mainly) establishes notability, which is very picky on here. If there was a central website, like with the [[Order of Canada]], that lists everyone who got the hero title, I would have used that instead. [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 05:18, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

::::There is the woefully incomplete [[List of heroes of the Russian Federation]]. Establishing notability would also be accomplished by mentioning the title in the article. It's possible there'd be enough articles for a stub relating to Russian military, or the space program (I don't follow bio stubs closely enough to know). --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 05:28, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

:::::I am checking that now, and I also happened to create that list. Once it gets to a good size, it will be transwikied (hopefully). [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 05:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

::::::But since this is a keep/delete situation, I personally will side (and this should not be a big shock), but '''keep.''' I will happy to see this go after a while, but I am going to create these type stubs in the next few years, so they should meet Grutness's 50 article rule. [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 06:46, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

'''Delete''' It only has 10 stubs now and it doesn't fit into our existing schemes. However, if there were a WikiProject associated with the Heroes of the Russian Federation, I could see keeping it. There are other ways of keeping track of articles about the Heroes of the Russian Federation that need work, such as [[:Category:Hero of the Russian Federation]] or [[List of heroes of the Russian Federation]] if it is a purely personal endeavour. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 01:20, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

*I am meerly just getting them up to stub status, then could work on them in the future, but I do not see how this does not work out to a "current scheme." But, I have let the folks know at the [[Portal:Russia]] about the creation of this template and that I am using it now. [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 01:29, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

**I still don't see any reason to not use {{tl|Russia-bio-stub}} in combination with {{cl|Hero of the Russian Federation}} until there actually are 60 stubs. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 19:50, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

***So, until that time comes, can I merge the template into the bio-stub template? [[User:Zscout370|Zach]] [[User_talk:Zscout370|(Sound Off)]] 19:52, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

====Rename [[:Category:Historical Fiction book stubs]] -> [[:Category:Historical fiction book stubs]]====

More standard capitalization. And easier to do while it's still relatively new. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 21:19, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

:CFD would regard this as a speedy rename. Though we don't have set rules for speedying here, I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be counted in the same way. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

===September 26th===

====Rename [[:Template:UK-depot-stub]] --> [[:Template:UK-railstation-stub]]====

I just saw this and had a "What the..." moment, since it's not for depots at all, but for railway stations. [[Depot]] = place where stuff is stored temporarily before being moved off. A railway depot is somewhere trains are stored overnight, with not a passenger in sight. A railway station is somewhere passengers get on the trains. They're not even [[synonym]]s. WTH happened here? - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 15:03, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. Depot can also refer to things that aren't train-related. However, the second sentence of depot does say "It most often means a [[train station]]..." --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 15:57, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. Although I agree that the term depot is not the most usual word for this in British/International English, it was named this way after quite a lengthly debate so as to be in line with other stub categories on such buildings. The term "station" - even as part of a compound such as "railstation", was deliberately avoided, since at that time "station-stub" referred to broadcast stations. It might be time to revisit this now, but if it is, then all similar stub names ({{tl|US-depot-stub}}, for example) should be similarly renamed for consistency. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:21, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment'''. For reference, here's what I could find of that discussion: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria#Problem with the new station stubs]] and [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Criteria/Archive14]]. Station-stub has also been moved to broadcast-stub, and the redirect was then deleted. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 00:41, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

**'''Comment''', well, rename them all then. If this is intended for railway stations, referring to freight depots is hugely nonintuitive. It's not "not the most common term," it's simply not used. No-one would ever say "I'm going down to the local depot to catch a train," they'd say "station," possibly prefixing train or railway to it. And the stations are called X Station, not X Depot. - [[User:SoM|SoM]] 00:58, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

***Times must have changed since I was a young trainspotter in north London. The term certainly ''was'' used for railway station. Not often, but occasionally. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 01:34, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

***I also hear it used occasionally for railway station, in Washington DC and nearby states. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 02:18, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

****I don't think times have changed enough for them to be in the UK, though! :) [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:21, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. I think sometimes used for railways in the sense of bus [[depot]], as well as the freight usage, but not for just any old station. And in any case, the depots are often physically separate from the stations. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 04:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. Notionally all British passenger railway stations '''were''' also depots and those that weren't were called X Halt or Y Platform so that shippers knew not to sent parcels or goods there. This was in the days when railways were common carriers and are long gone. Stations that accepted goods and not passenger tended to be called "goods stations", repair-shops and the like were, sometimes, called depots - but there were (of course) regional and company variations. [[User:Saga City|Saga City]] 14:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', at least until there are less than 300 stubs that use this template. At the moment, there are no less than 922 stubs that have this attached to them. Since the term is used to refer to both freight and passenger facilities, and readers don't see the stub name itself, expand those articles so that they no longer need the stub template. Although another 922 edits would help increase my own standing in [[WP:1000]], there are other tasks here that will use my time better. [[User:Slambo|slambo]] 15:39, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Comment'''. I haven't looked, but I'm confident that most of those 922 articles will be about passenger stations. As far as railways in Britain are concerned, a ''depot'' is a train storage/maintenance facility or a place for freight to be loaded/unloaded, never a place for passengers to get on or off trains. For instance, if you asked someone where "Waterloo Depot" was, they wouldn't know what you meant! However, the text of the stub template is fine, so as long as editors are aware of the template name, and are (grudgingly) willing to put up with it, it shouldn't be a problem. --[[User:RFBailey|RFBailey]] 12:55, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

*'''Rename'''. The current name is hugely non-intuitive and, certainly for the article I spotted it on, it is also wrong! In the context of public transport in the United Kingdom, depot exlcusively means a place where the busses/trains are storred and/or maintained. I am not aware of any train depots that routinely allow public access - even when they are on the same site as a boarding/disembarking place the latter will be called X station and the former X depot. What international useage is is irrelevant as this is explicitly for UK railway topics. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] 18:55, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

==Unfinished business==

===To orphan===

''Stub types in this section have been deemed deletable and have to be removed from all articles using them, so that they can be deleted.''

===To delete===

''Stub types in this section have been orphaned and can be deleted.''

===={{tl|DE-gov-stub}} (redirect)====

Redirects to {{tl|Delaware stub}}, as it was created and moved there today. Used on 1 article. However, DE is also the ISO code for Germany, and even a Delaware-gov-stub likely wouldn't get much use. '''Delete'''. --[[User:Mairi|Mairi]] 03:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''delete'''. And now that {{tl|delaware stub}} has been moved to {{tl|delaware-stub}}, delete {{tl|Delaware stub}}, too! [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 05:46, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Del.''' [[User:BL Lacertae|<font color=red>BL]] [[User talk:BL Lacertae|<font color=gray><small>kiss the lizard</small></font>]] 08:16, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''delete.''' I made it and once done realized I really wanted {{tl|Delaware-stub}}. Just learning. Please leave {{tl|Delaware stub}} as I will be using it more than some might think. [[User:Stilltim|stilltim]] 11:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

::The problem with {{tl|delaware stub}} is that it doesn't meet the formatting guidelines, because of the lack of a hyphen. The articles that use the {{tl|delaware stub}} tag instead of the {{tl|delaware-stub}} tag can easily be traced and appropriately edited. (this can be counted as a '''delete''' vote) [[User:Aecis|Aecis]] 11:32, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

:'''Delete''' {{tl|DE-gov-stub}}, {{tl|delaware stub}} and {{tl|delaware-stub}}. Not even close to viability threshold. Regional stub-cat is adequate until there are many more of these. [[User:Alai|Alai]] 01:54, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

*Redirects should be listed on [[WP:RFD|RFD]]. But '''delete''' this one as it is confusing. --[[User:SPUI|SPUI]] ([[User talk:SPUI|talk]]) 03:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

**Trying to have it both ways? Do you want it taken to RFD (where they'll tell you to bring it back here) or do you want us to delete it? [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

===Listings to log===

''Stub types with completed discussions which have not yet been logged; remove from '''this''' page entirely when logged. Anyone can do this, not just an admin; please see the directions at [[{{NAMESPACE}}:{{PAGENAME}}/Log]].''

[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Stub types for deletion]]

[[Category:WikiProject Stub sorting|Stub types for deletion]]