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In order to distinguish standards published by the [[International Electrotechnical Commission]] numerically from other [[international standard]]s, their number range was shifted in 1997 by adding 60000. So what used to be called IEC 27 is now officially IEC 60027, and so on. However, the old numbers remain commonly used. [http://www.iec.ch/webstore/custserv/faqs/faqs_M-P.htm#numbering]
{{Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Header}}
==Stub templates for deletion==
{{main|Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion}}
{{sfd-current}}
This is an incomplete list of IEC standards that includes many of the more widely known and used ones:
==Listings==
* [[IEC 60027]] Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology
'''Adding a listing'''
* IEC 60038 IEC Standard Voltages
*Please put new listings under [[#{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}|today's date ({{CURRENTMONTHNAMEGEN}} {{CURRENTDAY}})]] at the '''''top of the section'''''.
* IEC 60050 International electrotechnical vocabulary
*When listing a template here, don't forget to add '''<nowiki>{{tfd|TemplateName}}</nowiki>''' to the template or its talk page, and to '''give notice''' of its proposed deletion at relevant talk pages.
* IEC 60063 [[Preferred number]] series for resistors and capacitors
* IEC 60086 Primary [[batteries]]
* IEC 60094 Magnetic tape sound recording and reproducing systems
** IEC 60094-5 Electrical magnetic tape properties
** IEC 60094-6 Reel-to-reel systems
** IEC 60094-7 Cassette for commercial tape records and domestic use
* IEC 60096 Radio-frequency cables
* IEC 60134 Absolute maximum and design ratings of tube and semiconductor devices
* IEC 60169 Radio-frequency connectors
** IEC 60169-8 [[BNC connector]], 50 ohm
** IEC 60169-9 [[SMC connector]], 50 ohm
** IEC 60169-10 [[SMB connector]], 50 ohm
** IEC 60169-15 [[N connector]], 50 ohm or 75 ohm
** IEC 60169-16 [[SMA connector]], 50 ohm
** IEC 60169-16 [[TNC connector]], 50 ohm
** IEC 60169-24 [[F connector]], 75 ohm
* [[IEC 60228]] Conductors of insulated cables
* IEC 60238 Edison screw lampholders
* IEC 60268 Sound system equipment
** IEC 60268-1 General
** IEC 60268-2 Explanation of general terms and calculation methods
** IEC 60268-3 Amplifiers
** IEC 60268-4 Microphones
** IEC 60268-5 Loudspeakers
** IEC 60268-6 Auxilliary passive elements
** IEC 60268-7 Headphones and earphones
** IEC 60268-8 Automatic gain control devices
** IEC 60268-9 Artificial reverberation, time delay and frequency shift equipment
** IEC 60268-10 [[peak programme meter|Peak programme level meters]]
** IEC 60268-11 Application of connectors for the interconnection of sound system components
** IEC 60268-12 Application of connectors for broadcast and similar use
** IEC 60268-13 Listening tests on loudspeakers
** IEC 60268-14 Circular and elliptical loudspeakers; outer frame diameters and mounting dimensions
** IEC 60268-16 Objective rating of speech intelligibility by speech transmission index
** IEC 60268-17 Standard volume indicators
** IEC 60268-18 Peak programme level meters - Digital audio peak level meter
* IEC 60297 [[19-inch rack]]
* [[IEC 60309]] Plugs, socket-outlets and couplers for industrial purposes
* [[IEC 60320]] Appliance couplers for household and similar general purposes
* IEC 60335 Safety of electrical household appliances
* [[IEC 60364]] Electrical installations of buildings
* IEC 60417 Graphical symbols for use on equipment
* [[IEC 60446]] Wiring colours
* IEC 60574 Audio-visual, video and television equipment and systems
* [[IEC 60529]] Degrees of protection provided by enclosures (IP Code)
* IEC 60603 Connectors for frequencies below 3 MHz for use with printed boards
** IEC 60603-7 [[RJ45]] connector (8-pin)
* IEC 60617 Graphical symbols for diagrams
** IEC 60617-12 [[Binary logic elements]]
* IEC 60651 [[Sound level]] meters
* IEC 60694 High-voltage switchgear. Common specifications
* IEC 60774 [[VHS]]/[[S-VHS]] video tape cassette system
* IEC 60793 [[Optical fibre]]s
* IEC 60825 [[Laser safety]]
* IEC 60874 Connectors for optical fibres
* IEC 60884 Plugs and socket-outlets for household and similar purposes
:: Defines general requirements of such plugs and sockets. The many particular forms used in different countries are listed in IEC/TR 60083 (formerly IECEE CEE-7).
* IEC 60906 IEC system of plugs and socket-outlets for household and similar purposes
** [[IEC 60906-1]]: Plugs and socket-outlets 16 A 250 V AC
**:This is the system the IEC recommends as the worldwide standard for countries using 220-240 V AC. Switzerland uses already a very similar plug.
** IEC 60906-2: Plugs and socket-outlets 15 A 125 V AC
**: This is the system used in the United States, Canada, and Japan.
** IEC 60906-3: [[SELV]] plugs and socket-outlets, 16 A 6V, 12 V, 24 V, 48 V, AC and DC
* [[IEC 60908]] [[Compact disk]] digital audio system
* IEC 60950 Safety of information technology equipment
* IEC 61000 Electromagnetic compatibility (EMC)
** IEC 61000-2-1: Guide to electromagnetic environment for low-frequency conducted disturbances and signalling in public power supply systems
** IEC 61000-2-7: Environment - Low frequency magnetic fields in various environments
** IEC 61000-2-9: Environment - Description of HEMP environment. Radiated disturbance. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-2-10: Environment - Description of HEMP environment. Conducted disturbance
** IEC 61000-3-2: Limits - Limits for harmonic current emissions (equipment input current up to and including 16 A per phase)
** IEC 61000-3-3: Limits - Limitation of voltage changes, voltage fluctuations and flicker in public low-voltage supply systems, for equipment with rated current ≤ 16 A per phase and not subject to conditional connection
** IEC 61000-3-4: Limits - Limitation of emission of harmonic currents in low-voltage power supply systems for equipment with ra ted current greater than 16 A
** IEC 61000-3-8: Limits - Guide to signalling on low-voltage electrical installations. Emission levels, frequency bands and ele ctromagnetic disturbance levels
** IEC 61000-3-11: Limits - Limitation of voltage changes, voltage fluctuations and flicker in public low-voltage supply systems. Equipment with rated voltage current ≤ 75 A and subject to conditional connection
** IEC 61000-4-1: Testing and measurement techniques - Overview of IEC 61000-4 series
** IEC 61000-4-2: Testing and measurement techniques - Electrostatic discharge immunity tests. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-3: Testing and measurement techniques - Radiated, radio-frequency, electromagnetic field immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-4: Testing and measurement techniques - Electrical fast transient/burst immunity test. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-5: Testing and measurement techniques - Surge immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-6: Testing and measurement techniques - Immunity to conducted disturbances, induced by radio-frequency fields
** IEC 61000-4-8: Testing and measurement techniques - Power frequency magnetic field immunity test. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-9: Testing and measurement techniques - Pulse magnetic field immunity test. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-10: Testing and measurement techniques - Damped oscillatory magnetic field immunity test. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-12: Testing and measurement techniques - Oscillatory waves immunity test. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-13: Testing and measurement techniques - Harmonics and interharmonics including mains signalling at a.c. power por t, low frequency immunity tests
** IEC 61000-4-14: Testing and measurement techniques - Voltage fluctuation immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-15: Testing and measurement techniques - Flickermeter. Functional and design specifications. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-16: Testing and measurement techniques - Test for immunity to conducted, common mode disturbances in the frequency range 0 Hz to 150 kHz
** IEC 61000-4-17: Testing and measurement techniques - Ripple on d.c. input power port immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-23: Testing and measurement techniques - Test methods for protective devices for HEMP and other radiated disturban ces
** IEC 61000-4-24: Testing and measurement techniques - Test methods for protective devices for HEMP conducted disturbance. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-4-25: Testing and measurement techniques - HEMP immunity test methods for equipm ent and systems
** IEC 61000-4-27: Testing and measurement techniques - Unbalance, immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-28: Testing and measurement techniques - Variation of power frequency, immunity test
** IEC 61000-4-29: Testing and measurement techniques - Testing and measurement techniques. Voltage dips, short interruptions and voltage variations on d.c. input power port immunity tests
** IEC 61000-5-1: Installation and mitigation guidelines - General considerations. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-5-2: Installation and mitigation guidelines - Earthing and cabling
** IEC 61000-5-5: Installation and mitigation guidelines - Specification of protective devices for HEMP conducted disturbance. Basic EMC publication
** IEC 61000-6-6: Generic standards - HEMP immunity for indoor equipment
* IEC 61043 [[Sound intensity]] meters with pairs of microphones
* IEC 61149 Safety of mobile radios
* IEC 61158 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems
** IEC 61158-SER Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - ALL PARTS
** IEC 61158-1 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 1: Overview and guidance for the IEC 61158 series
** IEC 61158-2 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 2: Physical layer specification and service definition
** IEC 61158-3 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 3: Data link service definition
** IEC 61158-4 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 4: Data link protocol specification
** IEC 61158-5 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 5: Application layer service definition
** IEC 61158-6 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Fieldbus for use in industrial control systems - Part 6: Application layer protocol specification
* IEC 61286 Character set with electrotechnical symbols (ISO-IR 181 [http://www.itscj.ipsj.or.jp/ISO-IR/181.pdf])
* IEC 61508 [[Safety Integrity Level]]
* IEC 61557 Equipment for measuring electrical safety in low-voltage distribution systems
* IEC 61603 Infrared transmission of audio or video signals
* IEC 61784 Digital data communications for measurement and control
** IEC 61784-1 Digital data communications for measurement and control - Part 1: Profile sets for continuous and discrete manufacturing relative to fieldbus use in industrial control systems
* IEC 61966 Multimedia systems -- [[Colour]] measurement
** IEC 61966-2-1 [[sRGB]] default RGB colour space
* IEC 62196 Plugs and sockets for charging [[electric vehicle]]s
* IEC 62271 Standards for High-voltage switchgear and controlgear
** IEC 62271-100 High-voltage alternating current circuit-breakers
** IEC 62271-102 Alternating current disconnectors and earthing switches
** IEC 62271-200 A.C.-metal enclosed switchgear and controlgear for rated voltages above 1 kV and up to and including 52 kV
** IEC 62271-203 Gas-insulated metal-enclosed switchgear for rated voltages of 72,5 kV and above
==See also==
* The [[list of ISO standards]] covers also those jointly published by [[International Organization for Standardization|ISO]] and [[International Electrotechnical Commission|IEC]].
===November 5===
====[[Template:Irish Republic infobox]] ====
'''Delete''' and subst into [[Irish Republic]] wich is the only article using it. Alternatively delete and replace it with an apropriate generic infobox template. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 21:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==External link==
* '''speedy keep''' This nomination is either done maliciously or through incompetence. Of course it is only used in one article. There is only one article on the [[Irish Republic]]. Where do you suggest it be put also, in [[Mongolia]] and [[France]]? It contains all the information on a state that no longer exists. Subsequent states have their own templates. This nomination is mindboggling in its stupidity. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 21:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*[http://webstore.iec.ch/ Search IEC catalogue]
*'''Delete''' and subst into the article. There's no reason for this to be a separate template. - [[User:A Man In Black|A Man In <span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold;"><font color="000000">Black</font></span>]] <small>([[User talk:A_Man_In_Black|conspire]] | [[Special:Contributions/A Man In Black|past ops]])</small> 21:26, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keep''' This is a malicious or ill-informed nomination: there is no difference between this infobox and the infoboxes for [[Kingdom of England]], [[Commonwealth of England]], [[The Protectorate]], [[Kingdom of Scotland]], [[Hanover (state)]], [[Kingdom of Great Britain]], [[United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland]] etc, etc.--[[User:Mais oui!|Mais oui!]] 21:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**Why not subst those templates into their articles, as well? I don't see why we should have a separate template for an infobox that appears in one article only. - [[User:A Man In Black|A Man In <span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold;"><font color="000000">Black</font></span>]] <small>([[User talk:A_Man_In_Black|conspire]] | [[Special:Contributions/A Man In Black|past ops]])</small> 21:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**Sorry but they don't use templates - they are subst'd in, as should this one be. You state there is no difference, and therefore it is reasonable that the template be deleted and subst'd in. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 21:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''- no reason to delete. [[User:Astrotrain|Astrotrain]] 21:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst and delete''' as with all other single-use templates. I'm extremely disappointed by the kneejerk reactions here, especially from Jtdirl who should know better. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 21:51, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**Agreed. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 21:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**Deleting pointless, unused nonsensical templates makes sense. Proposing to delete a valid, working, accurate, relevant template is in my pure vandalism. I make no apologies for saying that the nomination here is either through incompetence or maliciousness. The nomination of admins here has deteriorated to a nasty, vicious brawl. Malicious or incompetent nominations of perfectly valid templates suggests that the same destructive standard is seeping in here too. If this is the sort of standard that Wikipedia wants to promote, then why should users both making efforts to make the site worth visiting?[[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 21:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst and delete''' as shown by the examples above. Templates that are only (and will only) be used by one article should be subst'd in. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 21:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Subst and delete'''. Single-use templates ought not to be templates. '''''<font color="green">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|a]]</font>'''''<font color="green">[[User:Android79|ndroid]]</font><font color="purple">[[User talk:Android79|79]]</font> 21:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:IEC standards]]
====[[Template:First MinistersNI]] ====
'''Delete''', not used anywhere. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 20:24, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*Not so. It was created to be used in Northern Ireland related politics articles, alongside other templates listing prime ministers and cultural figures. It has been reinserted in some of the articles some idiot removed it from. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 20:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**Can we lay off the personal attacks, please? "Mind-bogglingly stupid" above and "some idiot" here don't help make your case. '''''<font color="green">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|a]]</font>'''''<font color="green">[[User:Android79|ndroid]]</font><font color="purple">[[User talk:Android79|79]]</font> 21:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Edittemplateinfobox]]====
'''delete''': orphaned -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:31, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Edittemplate]]====
'''delete''': not used -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Edns]]====
'''delete''': only used by one article -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Editurl]]====
'''delete''': not used. -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:16, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Editorbox]]====
'''delete''': orphaned. -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: Monarch_Basic ]]====
'''Delete''': This template is not used anymore. Was replaced by [[:Template:Infobox Monarch Basic]]. [[User:JW1805|JW1805]] 18:10, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: Monarch_Basic_no_image ]]====
'''Delete''': This template is not used anymore. Was replaced by [[:Template:Infobox Monarch Basic]]. [[User:JW1805|JW1805]] 18:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Edcomment]]====
'''Delete''': not used. not appropriate for articles in main namespace -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 18:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I created it specifically to [[Template talk:Unreferenced#Comments|demonstrate]] that editorial commentary on the main article page is, indeed, inappropriate. It's not needed any more. —[[User:Mirv|Charles P.]][[User talk:Mirv| <small>(Mirv)</small>]] 18:27, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Editlink]]====
'''Delete''': orphaned. seems useless. -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 17:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Ednote]]====
'''Delete''': orphaned. would not belong on article. -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 17:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: bacteria-stub ]]====
'''Delete''': This template had been accidentally modified unpurposely by the creator using 'edit this page' option after clicked the link in [[:Category:Bacteria-stub]]. However, the creator decided to cancel it as the creator had found the relevant information that was going to be added in other section of Wikipedia. Therefore, it is not used in any article, and their category is empty.
* '''Keep''': Messing up a template is not a reason to delete it. I've fixed it. (See parallel discussion at [[WP:SFD]]) --[[User:Alynna.Kasmira|Alynna]] 17:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
* Thank you for your response. I admit I accidentally messed up a bit.
I will really appreciate if anyone have any solution for this. Thank you.[[User:fnovana|Amalthea cute]]
*'''Comment:''' Since there is a "parallell discussion at [[WP:SFD]]", this debate should now be closed. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 21:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Cc-by-sa-any ]]====
'''Delete''': Very confusing tag, as while it clearly and understandably can handle commercial use under a Cc-by-sa 1.0, it uses both the "commercial" (regular) and non-commercial 2.0 licenses! That makes as much sense as GFDL and "by-permission, Wikipedia only" dual-licensed, for example. It doesn't even suggest anything about choosing just one, which could save this template and help weed out the speedy-able I3s. '''If''' kept, -- and I strongly emphasize ''if'' here -- possible '''rename''' to {{tl|Cc-by-sa-both}} to remove the non-commercial bit, and most definitely should be clarified so it can actually be understood. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 16:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*I should note that this template was created '''after''' the declaration by Jimbo of ending all usage of non-commercial images -- not that this means anything within this very confusing template without clarification. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 16:30, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:SocEur ]]====
'''Delete''': On [[Wikipedia talk:Image copyright tags]], someone noted that this template's use as a "free use" template was wrong, that usage of images from http://www.soccer-europe.com required "written perimission from the webmaster." Therefore, this is a misleading template. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 15:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*It might also be a good idea to ask the webmaster what permission he could give Wikipedia to use those images, to determine if post-May 19 images with this template are to be speedied as I3s. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 15:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
===November 4===
====[[Template: Failed presidential candidates democratic]]====
We already have [[Template:USDemPresNominees]] which is to a very large extent the same list. It looks bizarre to have a full listing of those who were nominated followed immediately by those who were nominated but lost at least one an election. Honestly, I can't see what useful informational purpose this serves beyond the nominees template itself. I could maybe see a category, but a full template listing of everyone ... that takes up a lot of real-estate for no obviously useful purpose. [[User:Derex|Derex]] [[User_talk:Derex|@]] 03:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - Agree with the nominator. We already have too many footer templates for presidents and presidential candidates. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 16:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Categorize''', for an example of what this template does, the [[John Kerry]] page is bloated at the bottom already. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 19:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: Itdb ]]====
'''Delete''': This template has been created since May and it has only been linked to one page thus far.
While its original intent (to link to the Internet Theatre Database conveniently) is understandable, using the template requires the user to know the id of that play in the ITD site. This would require a visit to the site at the very least - and if you check that page for reference, why not use a direct link instead?
Last of all, the ITD itself has no article; this leads me to doubt how widely known and reliable that source is... [[User:Jeekc|Jeekc]] 15:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' The ITDb suffers from the problem AFAIK that at present there is considerable overlap with the IBDb in its coverage. It does however have some coverage of Off-Broadway and U.S. Regional Theatre and it intends to do more, but with volunteer staff and no ad-driven funding like the IMDb has, it has been slow to get off he ground. However that has nothing to with my delete vote. It's that if we have such a template, then it should be {{tl|itdb person}}, {{tl|itdb show}}, etc. for the same reason why {{tl|imdb}} was turned into a deprecated redirect to {{tl|imdb name}}. Since this only has one usage at present, let's go ahead and delete this and if desired have it be redone right. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Sig]] ====
This template is just amonth old and it's becoming transcluded in several pages (unsubsted I mean).
The original purpose was to let people have signatures showing up as <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> (by including it unsubsted it within a signature in the preferences dialog). Using it for that purpose would mean this would become an ubiquitous unsubsted template.
Some people have commented it about using it within another template. But then it becomes the additional problem of transcluded template within template. And if it's substed, why not typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>directly ?
Finally, this tempalte cannot be edited (as seen me breaking it by inserting the tfd tag, please check the history and previous version to see how it was before the tfd) unless you use a hack related to the preferences dialog (basically changing your name to <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> and thenn iserting your signature. '''Delete'''-- ( [[User:Drini|drini's <small><sub>vandalproof</sub></small> page]] [[User talk:Drini|<big>☎</big>]] ) 04:52, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''comment''' Here's the diff showing the previous version and the current nowiki-version (which then makes it redundant) [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ASig&diff=27320863&oldid=24844587]
*'''Annihilate.''' Very dangerous. Why would anyone ever need this when they could use <tt><nowiki><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></nowiki></tt>? (BTW, {{tl|tfd}} includes a large <noinclude> section, so you should never subst it, like you did on that template.) ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 04:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
::Well I didnt use to, but I read somewhere I should do it so. I'll get you the link. -- ( [[User:Drini|drini's <small><sub>vandalproof</sub></small> page]] [[User talk:Drini|<big>☎</big>]] ) 04:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
::ok It seems I misread, I apologize. -- ( [[User:Drini|drini's <small><sub>vandalproof</sub></small> page]] [[User talk:Drini|<big>☎</big>]] ) 04:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strongly delete'''. The ArbCom ruled against this particular sig in the -Ril- case, and any other use means having templates within templates which is [[WP:AUM|also bad]]. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 04:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
:: If ArbCom ruled, than should it be speedied? -- ( [[User:Drini|drini's <small><sub>vandalproof</sub></small> page]] [[User talk:Drini|<big>☎</big>]] ) 04:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', or in not-offical language, '''get rid of it'''. -- <font color="#668353">[[User:Stillnotelf|stillnotelf]]</font> <font color="#ff4487">[[User talk:Stillnotelf|has a talk page]]</font> 05:05, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' with extreme prejudice: this is simply annoying and is going to take a load of work to clear up. —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 10:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Incinerate''' Does not actually appear to have any use, and it's probably easier to just type "[[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 20:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)"
*Strong keep. can we have it still I really think its a good one to have. </br>
:so it a self reference one according to the origanl reason. Why not move the instrucitons on its talk page to somewhere about templates.
--[[User:Adam1213|<big><b>☺<font color="#FF9900">A</font>dam1213</font>☺</big></b>]] [[user_talk:Adam1213|Talk]][http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Adam1213&action=edit§ion=new +]|[http://www.adam1213.tk WWW] 00:43, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*I made this template to show someone on help desk that it could be done (they wanted the sig to be added automagically by a template). I have no use for it. '''Delete''' [[User:BrokenSegue|'''B'''roken]] [[User talk:BrokenSegue|'''S''']] 03:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''The strongest delete of this debate'''. Not sure if this qualifies as a speedy under new evidence, but placing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> in a template is probably the '''worst thing that could ever go into a template'''. The {{tl|vw}} series was a similar template, containing a usage of the appropriate {{tl|test}} series template in addition to this bad signature system, before it was turned into normal redirects to the correct templates. We cannot handle these types of things, and they ''very'' depreciated, '''especially''' after that ArbCom ruling. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 15:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy delete''' this thing, it has been placed on a blacklist by the ArbCom saying it was a bad idea to begin with, as Splash points out, and the idea is really bad overall. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 19:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
===November 3===
==== [[Template:Philosophy (navigation)]] ====
'''Edit Notice: ''' Okay, I scaled it down. Take a look at it now. Not as intimidating; a good side-door into the field of philosophy. The removed list is alive and well on Wikipedia's lists, and links have been provided on the template to that material. There wasn't/isn't enough to make a portal, since the template was/is nothing more than a sequence of topic lists. For a comparison, see this [[template:Spirituality]]
[[User:24.18.171.99|24.18.171.99]] 00:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Main problems of this template:
*Size: over 200 entries and growing
*Cohesion: for a large number of articles where it is inserted, only a fraction of the link provided are usefull
*NPOV: especially the ''Major philosophers'' section is an invitation to NPOV problems
*Use for link spamming: Two contributors consider it a good idea, to have external links in the template, effectively putting them in over hundred articles
[[User:Pjacobi|Pjacobi]] 18:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
In defense of the template:
*Size: this can be refined over time, toward the goal of making the template of optimum usefulness, which is a much better option than summarily deleting the template. Then again, perhaps 200 entries is the right size for a concise map of philosophy, which itself is pretty complex.
*Cohesion: this can be improved upon as well. The template was just created, and has yet to be categorized sufficiently. I thought it better to get the material up there, than worry about formatting. Even so, it looks pretty good, and now that it's there, everyone can play with it and improve it in the Wikipedian way. As for the usefulness argument, having a map while you are trying to navigate the complex maze we call philosophy is highly useful. A user can rapidly achieve a good understanding of philosophy by using this template. Besides, if the template is more of a hindrance than a help for a particular article, then it would be better to remove the template from the article, rather than delete the template from the Wikipedia. I believe a better option would be to add more refined templates in addition to this general template which could naturally follow in a complementary fashion. But above all, if a template is useful in more than a single article, then it deserves to be a template.
*NPOV on major philosophers: the majorness of a philosopher is easily verified. Besides, the NPOV argument needs to be made on a philosopher by philosopher basis. Which ones aren't major? Simply axe the minor ones from the template itself. Here, Pjacobi is worrying about a problem that hasn't even surfaced yet, the same problem that threatens the entire Wikipedia at all times. If his logic were extended to the Wikipedia as a whole, that would mean deleting the Wikipedia itself. The list of philosphers is one of the most useful features of the template!
*"link spamming" - Pjacobi's choice of words is highly rhetorical, and I object to his manipulative labeling here, as the links do not fall under the definition of spam at all. They are external resources, very much like Wikipedia itself is a resource, and precisely the sort of links that are encouraged in Wikipedia articles. And since these links are to general resources on philosophy, they fit the context and scope of the template perfectly. These are the links Pjacobi is having trouble with: '''External Online Resources: ''' [http://www.galilean-library.org/philosophy.html Introducing Philosophy Series. By Paul Newall (for beginners)] | [http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/index.htm Dictionary of Philosophical Terms and Names] | [http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/ The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy] | [http://plato.stanford.edu/ Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy] | [http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/gpi/index.htm Guide to Philosophy on the Internet]
'''Keep'''
P.S.: Infinity0, sorry about removing your topics, that was done inadvertantly during an expansion. My apologies.
[[User:24.18.171.99|24.18.171.99]] 19:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' It's a good idea, maybe it can be eventually replaced with [[Portal:Philosophy]]. Just because it's messed up now doesn't mean it always will be. [[User:Infinity0|Infinity0]] 19:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Portalize''', agree with Infinity0's idea. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 20:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
**Actually portalising was Pjacobi's idea. I don't know how Portals work, but I was given the impression there isn't enough to make one, from the content atm. However, a separate portal would be more useful than this huge nav menu - the nav menu should be kept, but scaled down. [[User:Infinity0|Infinity0]] 20:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Portalize''' Actually, it's a shame it doesn't exist yet. [[User:Jules.lt|Jules LT]] 21:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)</S> Actually the [[:Category:Philosophy]] is already portal-like, and making it a real portal has already been evoked in the talk page. See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy]] to see people who might be interested in helping. You should join the wikiproject, btw [[User:Jules.lt|Jules LT]] 22:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Portalize'''. Plus, it only deals with Western philosophy and completely ignores philosophy from the Middle East, Northern Africa, South Asia, and East Asia. [[User:Thames|<nowiki></nowiki>]]—[[User:Thames|thames]] 21:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I actually found it very useful. While it does need to be scaled down a bit, or maybe just be relabled to "Western Philosophy," it's definately not something you want to just chuck out the window. Let's fix it, not get rid of it. I suggest we make it look more like the [[Template:Creationism2|Creationism Template]], which I think is pretty good. --[[User:Miketwo|Michael]] 22:45, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
**The creationism template serves a pretty small category. It's a category of the philosophy of religion, which in turn is a category of philosophy, which is HUGE. Perhaps a smaller category like epistemology could use the creationism template format effectively, but philosophy needs another approach than the creationis template referred to above. See the other one: [[Template:Creationism]]. [[User:24.18.171.99|24.18.171.99]] 06:31, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - these should be in a category, not as a template, articles are too varied - humanism, for example - some people call it philosophy, others something different - it's fine to be in a philosophy category, but doesn't necessarily make sense to display that huge mess of other stuff at the bottom of the page - people interested can click on the category and get to all the same info, yes? [[User:Tedernst|Tedernst]] 16:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak keep''', although you can be sure that I very quickly removed this monster from the pages I watch. I can't imagine this is likely to get very wide acceptance, but go ahead and try. [[User:Christopherparham|Christopher Parham]] [[User_talk:Christopherparham|(talk)]] 17:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - I like the idea. It is a bit too big for its use now, but I don't think it should be deleted. The most drastic change I would approve is to move it somewhere else (i.e. Philosophy Portal?). ANYTHING but delete though. [[User:FranksValli|FranksValli]] 19:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Rename''' to [[:Template:Western philosophy]]. The current template is ''incredibly'' biased, which can much more easily be solved by renaming the template than by trying to make an already-too-large navigation box even larger. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 19:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:User 1000edits]]====
Oh for heaven's sake. This panders to the worst kind of editcountitis. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]][[User talk:Tony Sidaway|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 18:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' vanity, who cares --[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 18:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Most of what goes on user pages is vanity. Personal pictures and the like actually use up Wikipedia resources without doing anything for the encyclopedia! No need to go breaking a bunch of dedicated Wikipedians' user pages just because you think they're being silly. — [[User:Haeleth|Haeleth]] <small>[[User_talk:Haeleth|Talk]]</small> 18:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' while I agree that nobody cares. But it's for the userspace, and you can do whatever you want with that. And it's better to have this in the main namespace, because if one person put it in their userspace then other people would do the same in theirs, and we would have the same thing repeated over and over in every editcountitis-inflicted editor's userspace. And ''that'' would clutter Wikipedia more than just having one of them. - [[User:Ulayiti|ulayiti]] [[User talk:Ulayiti|<font color="226b22"><small>(talk)</small></font>]] 20:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' [[WP:NOT]] a [[nanny state]]. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 22:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Tony. ''Wrong metric.'' — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 03:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Tony, edit count is not a status symbol - they'd be better served by a link to that edit counter page anyway. -- <font color="#668353">[[User:Stillnotelf|stillnotelf]]</font> <font color="#ff4487">[[User talk:Stillnotelf|has a talk page]]</font> 05:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per nom -- ( [[User:Drini|drini's <small><sub>vandalproof</sub></small> page]] [[User talk:Drini|<big>☎</big>]] ) 07:35, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. People can categorize themselves with any templates that they wish as long as it is not offensive. Alright, categorizing yourself based on edit count is not something I would do or recommend, but it is no more stupid that the list we have of Wikipideans by number of edits. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 07:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Perhaps it is annoying vanity, but that's not a reason to delete, at least when it's user page information. - [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] [[User talk:A Link to the Past|(talk)]] 10:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' -- Could be useful [[User:SGCommand|SGCommand]]
*'''Delete'''. You need more than 1000 edits to have your own template. Maybe, oh... How about 100,000 edits. That'd warrant one alright. —[[user:Radman1|'''RaD Man''']] ([[User_talk:Radman1|''talk'']]) 10:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Come on. Some people who get 100 edits feel they've achieved something (and if the edits are good then frankly they have!). Some people just want to play on their user pages. And it's not editcountitis... editcountitis is saying "1000 edits isn't enough to deserve a template". [[User:The Land|The Land]] 10:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
** Hey, I just said that! —[[user:Radman1|'''RaD Man''']] ([[User_talk:Radman1|''talk'']]) 10:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
***I was kinda hoping you were being ironic ;) [[User:The Land|The Land]] 10:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''': not nearly so useful as {{tl|Tonofedits}} which at least allows you see how many edits rather than just vaguely boasting. [[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 14:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''; no basis for deletion. [[User:Christopherparham|Christopher Parham]] [[User_talk:Christopherparham|(talk)]] 18:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I don't even have 1000 edits, and I probably wouldn't use this if I did, but reasons for deleting seem to be weak. --[[User:FranksValli|FranksValli]] 19:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - before these damn editcountitis-suffering users start doing some serious damage to the wiki's social structure. This stuff says to contributors, "you aren't taken seriously unless you've edited X times across Y distinct pages in Z namespaces with C sticks of dynamite shoved up your wotsit." [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] <sup>''[[User_talk:Robchurch|Talk]]''</sup> 17:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Silly vanity. [[User:RedWolf|RedWolf]] 17:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', harmless. [[User:Christopherparham|Christopher Parham]] [[User_talk:Christopherparham|(talk)]] 17:52, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', as well as the equivalent templates for N edits, because it's redundant, vague and promotes editcountitis. [[User:Gerritholl|Gerrit]] <sup>[[Special:Contributions/Gerritholl|C]][[User:Gerritholl|U]][[User_talk:Gerritholl|T]][[Special:Emailuser/Gerritholl|E]][[Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Gerritholl|D]][http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/ H]</sup> 19:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', not harmless but not our job to get rid of. -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 19:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', userfy only if absoultely necessary. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 19:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Tonofedits]]====
Same as [[Template:User 1000edits]]. Rubbish. --[[User:Tony Sidaway|Tony Sidaway]][[User talk:Tony Sidaway|<small><sup>Talk</sup></small>]] 18:08, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Delete''' - what next? an edit count league-table (oh, forgot we already have one) --[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 18:43, 3 November 2005 (UTC)</s> OK, keep understood as a post-modern ironic parody of editcountis. (but, yes, it is a ''bad'' joke)[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 19:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Come on, it's a joke. No need to go breaking a bunch of the most dedicated Wikipedians' user pages just because you think it's a ''bad'' joke. — [[User:Haeleth|Haeleth]] <small>[[User_talk:Haeleth|Talk]]</small> 18:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. --[[User:Nlu|Nlu]] 18:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' joke template. - [[User:A Link to the Past|A Link to the Past]] [[User talk:A Link to the Past|(talk)]] 18:50, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' not such a bad joke. :) - [[User:Ulayiti|ulayiti]] [[User talk:Ulayiti|<font color="226b22"><small>(talk)</small></font>]] 20:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' and stop breaking my userpage will ya Tony! [[User:Alkivar|<font color="#FA8605">'''ALKIVAR'''</font>]][[User_talk:Alkivar|™]][[Image:Radioactive.png|18px|]] 21:10, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep.''' [[WP:NOT]] a [[nanny state]]. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 22:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. I've provided a better symbol. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 00:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' instead of screeming a number its nice to be proud with large edit counts :) --[[User:Cool Cat|<small>Cool Cat</small>]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|<sup><small>Talk</small></sup>]] 00:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', harmless joke template. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 02:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per Tony. ''Wrong metric.'' (What is the weight of an edit anyway? '''Zero!''') — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 03:34, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
**Haha. Great comment :D --[[User:Phroziac|<font color="red">Phroziac</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Phroziac|<font color="red">talk</font>]])</sup>[[Image:Flag_of_Phyzech_Republic.svg|25px]] 19:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', statistical-oriented people like me love it. It should just be for curiosity's sake however, and nothing else (definitely not for considering administrators). [[User:Croat Canuck|Croat Canuck]] 04:06, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak Keep''', it's a poor way to do it but a useful link for the <s>nosy</s> curious. -- <font color="#668353">[[User:Stillnotelf|stillnotelf]]</font> <font color="#ff4487">[[User talk:Stillnotelf|has a talk page]]</font> 05:12, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It's OK to have this kind of non-offensive template on userpages. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 10:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Amusing. See above. And get cracking on that how-much-does-an-edit-weigh-anyway thing. —[[user:Radman1|'''RaD Man''']] ([[User_talk:Radman1|''talk'']]) 10:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''': I like this one. [[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 13:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Wrong metric??? That better be a joke :) --[[User:FranksValli|FranksValli]] 19:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' for its humo'''''u'''''r value. Of course it's the wrong metric. Edits don't have weight, they have charge. How else would WP get so polarised? [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 20:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as per above [[User:Dr.alf|dr.alf]] 11:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - firmly oppose any editcountitis. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] <sup>''[[User_talk:Robchurch|Talk]]''</sup> 17:36, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
**It's just a parody of the real editcountitis, Rob. --[[User:Phroziac|<font color="red">Phroziac</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Phroziac|<font color="red">talk</font>]])</sup>[[Image:Flag_of_Phyzech_Republic.svg|25px]] 19:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - As per above. But if it should get deleted, please subst it on my userpage first. --[[User:Phroziac|<font color="red">Phroziac</font>]]<sup>([[User talk:Phroziac|<font color="red">talk</font>]])</sup>[[Image:Flag_of_Phyzech_Republic.svg|25px]] 19:55, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Haeleth. [[User:Pfctdayelise|pfctdayelise]] 20:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
===November 2===
==== [[Template: Football squad player/other/ ]]====
'''Speedy Delete''': Temporary template, not used any more. [[User:Monkbel|Monkbel]] 12:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: Football squad player/other/captain ]]====
'''Speedy Delete''': Temporary template, not used any more. [[User:Monkbel|Monkbel]] 12:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template: Football squad player/other/vice-captain ]]====
'''Speedy Delete''': Temporary template, not used any more. [[User:Monkbel|Monkbel]] 12:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
===November 1===
====[[Template:New Jersey New]]====
'''Speedy delete''': Testing ground for {{tl|New Jersey}}, obsolete now that it has been merged in. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 23:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:POTS-appointment]]====
'''Delete''': I am nominating this template for deletion because it seems unencyclopedic. First of all, it actively highlights a temporary state of affairs. While this is sometimes unavoidable, there is a reason [[Wikipedia:Avoid statements that will date quickly]] is part of the style guide. Second, it doesn't contribute anything to the article, while creating a lot of blank space unnecessarily; the fact that there is a vacancy in an office seems to almost always be redundant with information presented in the article. Third, the link for "qualified applicants" seems out of place, particularly in articles such as [[Supreme Court of the United States]] (from which it was deleted with the comment "Is this a joke?" while I was writing this nomination). That should be enough to start with. — [[User:DLJessup|DLJessup]] ([[User talk:DLJessup|talk]]) 23:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
:I orphaned it. '''BJAODN and delete.''' ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 23:09, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*When I looked at it, I had a chuckle, so it ''must'' be funny. '''Delete''' and '''send to BJAODN''' per [[User:Nickptar|N]]. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 00:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Hilarious, though! The "apply" link was particularly amusing. <tt>:)</tt> <span class="user-sig user-horsepunchkid">—[[User:HorsePunchKid|<span style="font-family: monospace; font-variant: small-caps;">HorsePunchKid</span>]]→[[User talk:HorsePunchKid|<span style="color: #070;">龜</span>]]</span> 03:27, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. It is too funny to lose. Seriously, though, maybe an adapted version could be used for Wikipedia elections, once you replace the presidential seal by our globe and reword it. But this template gave me the best laugh all night. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 03:41, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*Yeah, it's a '''BJAODN and delete'''. Please don't use this on real articles. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 03:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*Prime '''BJAODN''' material, but I have to agree with Jtdirl that we might want something like that for ourselves. (Implicit '''delete''', of course) [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 03:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''BJAODNfy''' immediately and inform the creator of the template that if not the whole world, atleast [[WP:BJAODN]] is looking for him to spread sunshine and laughter. --[[User:Gurubrahma|Gurubrahma]] 04:06, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
* Hehe, I think I would have sent applicants [http://www.cronyjobs.com/ here]. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 07:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', but put the creator up for a medal. [[User:The Land|The Land]] 14:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
=====The creator speaks=====
* '''Keep, but if you really want to, delete.''' I don't think it's nonsense. I don't think it's a bad joke, either. It's a damn good joke, and it's encyclopedic. It presents a notable fact in an interesting (and entertaining) way. At the time I created that, I had been doing much CSD screening on new pages and images for several days, and I really just sort of snapped. I needed to do something encyclopedic and lighthearted. The hilarity of it results from the fact the the Executive Office of the President of the United States of America solicits applications for Senate-confirmed positions on the main White House website. The template actually presents the user factual information - that this particular HR mechanism has made it all the way into the highest realms of even the federal government. I think the concept is encyclopedic. In hindsight, the template presentation is, well, unusual. A note might be added to [[George W. Bush Administration]] in the nominations section about this web application mechanism if it is deleted. --[[User:Mm35173|Mm35173]] 18:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:'''On second thought, keep.''' Many jobs are notable enough that they have articles which deal with them on Wikipedia. How one gets said jobs is notable and important. We have a whole discourses on how men become popes, presidents, etc. How to get a presidentially appointed position is pertinent to each article about such positions. Since the information is reusable, and would likely change on all of these pages at once, templatization is a good way to present it.--[[User:Mm35173|Mm35173]] 18:48, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:'''Keep''' I already said ''keep'' jokingly but I like Mm's idea. A page on how applications are made is definitely encyclopædic and a reworded version of this template would be perfectly suited for such a page. But full marks to Mm for giving us all a great laugh. I've added a doctored version of it onto my user page, reworded in a humorous vein. [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 18:56, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Mormon jew]]====
Why does there need to be a merge of Mormon and Jewish templates? There's no article using it. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 22:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' it is a SPAM/POV template fork. [[User:Humus sapiens|<nowiki></nowiki>]]←[[User:Humus sapiens|Humus sapiens]][[User talk:Humus_sapiens|←ну?]] 22:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''...ugh. make it go away. [[User:TShilo12|Tom]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|e]]</font>[[User:TShilo12|r]] <sup><font size=-1 color=129DBC>[[User talk:TShilo12|TALK]]</font></sup> 22:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. As above. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <sup><font color="Purple">[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</font></sup> 23:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. POV fork. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 23:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' with extreme prejudice. And maybe start an RfC on whoever created this. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 23:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' only relates to one article (which although FCA seems dubious) which does not include it; includes an external link and so seems to be an ad. Overall POV. [[User:Jnothman|jnothman]] [[User_talk:jnothman|<sup>talk</sup>]] 00:11, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' this blatant [[Plagiarism|plagiarization]] of the original [[:Template:Jew]]. In its present form this template is nothing but an obvious attempt to promote a "Mormon's version of [[Messianic Judaism]]" and does not belong in an encyclopedia. It is foisting a purely Mormon [[POV]] which no-one else agrees with. There already is an '''article''' [[Mormonism and Judaism]] which is quite enough. A template for this subject is not needed. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 06:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**Re-use is compatible with the [[GFDL]] (encouraged, even). Sources should be cited, however. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 17:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
***You miss my point here. It's not the superficial "reuse" of it (no problem if it's "innocent" and accurate). But it's the ''devious'' manner at work here, like a "sheep in wolf's clothing" in it's attempt to "over-reach" by trying to unite things that stand in opposition to each other. Mormonism and Judaism are '''not''' "partners", as this crazy template would falsely convey, they are more like rivals, if not enemies -- in the religious and spiritual sense. [[User:IZAK|IZAK]] 07:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
****Woah, man. Chill out. This template conveys the wrong information, and implies the wrong things, and I agree that it's potentially offensive. '''Delete''' it for sure. That being said, there's no reason to characterize different religions as enemies. Also, GFDL makes allegations of "copyright infringement" within Wikipedia irrelevant. Attack the template on legitimate grounds, by all means, but the extra stuff isn't necessary. -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 17:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' - not worthwhile for the 1-2 articles it would apply to. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 17:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' Hey, I created it guys. Not trying to offend anyone, simply wanted to place a templete on the article that included topics of both faiths. It was to be frank, an attempt at maintaining a neutral point of view. If it offened anyone why is there no complaint on the discussion page of the actual article? The template would have been removed then and there, as the Mormonism and Judaism article is being written to not offend anyone, and a place where both Mormons and Jews are comfortable reading. From my perspective view, I believed I was allowed to re-use the template under the GFDL, and as far as citing my sources I included a link to the original article and template at the top of the new template. Plagiarization is not even a reasonible complaint. Also, the template is several months old, and these complaints are fairly new. Again, I'd like to stress the point that I am not intrested in offending anyone, nor confict. For these reasons I am have no complaints about its removal. VChapman (4 Nov 05 01:36 UTC)
** Mormonism is not a form of Messianic Judaism. As a Latter-Day saint, I accept the Jews place in the House of Israel, but do not believe that Messianic Judaism has any authority to even operate as Christs church, neitherless convert individuals into The House of Israel. Mormon belief does however give everyone the right to worship who, how and what they may. Please don't be so quick to associate, what I believe to be, a christian church of mostly gentiles with the LDS faith. It is my personal belief that mormonism is a continuation of the religion. Messianic Judaism has several striking differences with Mormonism, to include the Messianic belief in the christian trinity. Messianic Jews claim to fall under the Tribe of Judah, and thus proclaim themselves as Jewish, whereas Mormons believe they are mostly Ephraim. Although Ephraim and Judah are pitted against each other in the Torah(Bible), they are both Members of the House of Israel, who's reunification is also proficied in the Torah. If you accept the Mormon place in the House of Israel as Ephraim or not is your right, but please remember, worldwide there are just about as many mormons as Jews (+ or - 2 Million or so). As far as the argument that Mormons and Jews are more likely enemies, I want to remind you both faiths, '''UNDER HEBREW LAW''' prohibit discriminatiion against the other.(Exedus and 2nd Nephi) I appologize if I offended anyone, but I wanted to dispute the complaint against me that I was attempting to promote Messianic Judaism.
*'''Delete''' totally unnecessary. [[User:Izehar|Izehar]] 17:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Hoax]]====
'''Delete'''. I'm nominating this template for the same reason why I support the deletion of {{tl|DisputeCheck}} and {{tl|Cleanup-nonsense}}. Massive warning templates disparage entire articles' quality in the eyes of readers, and therefore should be confined to situations in which concrete allegations of major editorial problems exist. If someone '''''suspects''''' that an article is a hoax (and isn't certain of this), the appropriate course of action is to research the subject further and/or consult others (such as major contributors to related articles). When in doubt, it's important to [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]. There's absolutely no need to compromise the appearance of a potentially legitimate article by advertising a mere hunch. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 22:25, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' It should only be used where there is real suspicion, after some research, that the article is likely to be a hoax not in case of mere hunches. When the editor feels the need of advice in specialist areas, for example. [[User:Dlyons493|<FONT COLOR="#00FF00">Dl</FONT><FONT COLOR="#44FF00">yo</FONT><FONT COLOR="#99DD11">ns</FONT><FONT COLOR="#DDDD11">493</FONT>]] [[User_talk:Dlyons493|<FONT COLOR="#DDDD11">Ta</FONT><FONT COLOR="#00FF00">lk</FONT>]] 22:31, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
::As I said, when someone suspects that an article is a hoax, it certainly is appropriate to seek the advice of those who are more knowledgeable in the area. In no way, however, does this require the user to add a proclamation of his/her suspicion to the article (which might be legitimate). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 22:45, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Keep''' per Dlyons. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 23:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)</s>
*'''Delete''' As with {{tl|twoversions}} and {{tl|cleanup-nonsense}}, the community at large cannot be trusted to use these templates sensibly. If you think something is a hoax, the correct course of action is to look further into it, and tag it with {{tl|delete}} or to AfD it, or to raise it on the talk page for the article. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 23:48, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
**The origin of this template was a discussion at [[WP:CSD]] if hoax vandalism ought to be speedy deleted. A concern was that just tagging it as {{tl|delete}} would not give the article sufficient exposure to eyeballs. As far as responsible use goes, I see no rampant misuse of the {{tl|delete}} template. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 10:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
***Under current policy, alleged hoaxes are '''''not''''' speedy deletion candidates on that basis. And even if this were to change (which would be ill-advised, in my opinion), the {{tl|hoax}} template encourages readers to place a scarlet "H" on articles that are merely ''"suspected"'' to be hoaxes. (Hurl accusations now, ask questions later.) —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
****'''Comment''' Hoaxes are speediable under G1 '''if''' the article give insufficient context for turning it into a valid article. [[User:Johntex|Johntex]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Johntex|talk]]</sup> 19:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*****I explicitly stated that "alleged hoaxes are not speedy deletion candidates '''on that basis'''" (new emphasis). Hoaxes are subject to G1, but this has nothing to do with the fact that they're hoaxes. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
****Recent examples show that once spotted, the legitimacy of an article is quickly established either way. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 13:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*****How is it beneficial to display a disparaging notice in the meantime? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
******Ordinary vandalism (including adding nonsense) is reverted on sight and doesn't stay visible for too long. Hoax entries on entirely fictional people on the other hand must go through the AfD process to be removed and take a week or so to go away. A notice that the hoax has been discovered in addition to the AfD notice (which will be slapped on once the hoax is confirmed) will hopefully discourage the vandal. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 14:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::1. Until sufficient evidence exists to reasonably establish a high level of probability that the article is a hoax (thereby warranting an AfD listing), it's inappropriate to place a deprecatory label on the (potentially legitimate) page. Even a non-definitive declaration is injurious to an article's reputation — and more importantly, that of its contributor. In the case of a false alarm, this is likely to be a new, inexperienced member of our community (who might be offended/discouraged by the false vandalism accusation to the extent that he/she decides to cease all participation). "[[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|Assuming good faith]]" doesn't mean "assuming that a borderline suspicious article is a hoax until proven otherwise."
:::::2. When there ''is'' sufficient evidence to warrant an AfD listing, it remains inappropriate to tag an article with a supplementary template (in addition to {{tl|afd}}). This unfairly conveys an out-of-context, one-sided, POV-based assessment of the content. The correct procedure is to simply insert the {{tl|afd}} tag (and nothing more). This promulgates the fact that the article has been nominated for deletion (itself an unfortunate but unavoidable circumstance for valid articles), and directs readers to the AfD discussion (where '''all''' pertinent viewpoints and specific evidence may be addressed). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::*[[Wikipedia:Vandalism]] calls hoaxes "Silly Vandalism", and some people do consider those to be under the jurisdiction of G3. ([[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 13:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::*Where is the word "hoax" used on that page? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::::*"Users will sometimes create joke articles" fits the bill quite well. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 14:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::*Hoaxes are alluded to in that paragraph, but not in a context that would render them eligible for speedy deletion. An unambiguously nonsensical joke ("Lushy McDrinksalot traveled to Earth from the planet Foamymug in his magical, hops-powered rocket ship to become the first openly drunk President of the United States . . .") fits the speedy deletion criteria, but a plausible hoax (meaning one that might be taken seriously by a rational adult) is explicitly excluded from speedy deletion: [[Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|"This does not include . . . hoaxes . . ."]] Of course, this is irrelevant to the matter at hand; even if "likely hoax" were added as a new CSD, your template would be inappropriate. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::*You are referring to G1, "nonsense". "Pure Vandalism" is speediable under G3. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 18:55, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::*G1 contains the page's one and only instance of the word "hoax." Thus far, every attempt to expand the speedy deletion criteria to include hoaxes has failed. If the current proposal or any future proposal succeeds, your template still will be inappropriate (IMHO). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': If there is strong, well-grounded suspicion of a hoax, the right template is probably {{tl|Afd}}. -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 00:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**True. '''Delete.''' ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 00:07, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. The idea behind this template is to limit the spread of the semi-elaborate hoaxes that are cropping up with increasing frequency while they are put through the deletion process. Recent examples are [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Professor David Ashmead]], [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Anders Hackzelius]] or [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nicola Garside]]. With trolls there is no reason to assume good faith as they haven't shown any to begin with. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 10:33, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::Your description does not correspond to the template's actual wording (which clearly encourages application to a ''"suspected"'' hoax that has not yet been "confirmed to be a hoax" or "nominated[d] for deletion," and that might be "confirmed true"). If you were to reword the template for use in the manner that you describe above (confining its application to a situation in which the user is confident in his/her assertion that an article is a hoax), it would become nothing more than an inappropriate companion to {{tl|afd}} that shouts '''"HOAX! HOAX!"''' at readers who haven't had the opportunity to read such a claim in the context of the AfD discussion (which might contain weak evidence of wrongdoing and/or valid a defense of the article's legitimacy). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::If can come up with better phrasing for the intended use, please do so. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 13:15, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::::As I said, I don't believe that this template has a valid application; any rewording would merely shift it from one inappropriate purpose to another. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::Update: Just now, on New Page Patrol, I came across two hoax articles that the hoax template was intended for. [[Barry Cahill]] committed a "triple murder" when he killed the "Larkson Family"; Google throws up no hits for this. [[Dr. Julian Godfray]] won the 1972 Booker Prize with for his novel "The Sun Disk Pharaoh". Neither author nor title are listed in the catalogue of the British Library. I didn't check if a building is named after him at King's College School, Wimbledon; probably it isn't and the school may not exist. The 1972 Booker Prize was awarded to John Berger. Does that really need to hang around for a week on AfD? [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 17:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::Just as a hypothetical example, suppose that an individual by the name of "'''L'''arry Cahill" murdered a family by the name of "'''C'''larkson." What initially appears to be a clear-cut hoax could turn out to be nothing more than a couple of honest factual errors. (The level of notability would be a separate issue.) This is the sort of realization that sometimes occurs at AfD, and that's why we bother to conduct the discussions.
::::::Again, this is irrelevant to the matter at hand; even if "likely hoax" were added as a new CSD, your template would be inappropriate. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::There is always the risk that speedy-deleting hoax vandalism might kill a legit article, that is precisely why it's preferable to have some people look over it before the hoax is deleted. Hence the template.
::::::::It '''''always''''' is a good idea to seek community feedback before deleting an article because it's believed to be a hoax, irrespective of how that deletion occurs. But once again, why is it necessary to solicit such advice via a deprecatory template? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', agree with Jmabel. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 10:59, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', for well known hoaxes such as the [[Fiji mermaid]] or [[Piltdown Man]] this template is inappropriate. For the run of the mill hoax that is at odds with [[WP:V]] the proper template is {{tl|Afd}}. --''[[User: Allen3|Allen3]]'' <sup>[[User talk:Allen3|talk]]</sup> 12:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Weak delete''' (it's better now I've fixed the spelling errors). <s>We don't just delete 'confirmed hoaxes' - we delete articles that cannot be verified. I do think we need a 'I can't verify this, can anyone else?' template - <nowiki>{{verify}}</nowiki> atm refers to narrowly to lack of sources. --[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 19:09, 2 November 2005 (UTC)</s>
::We already have such a template; it's called {{tl|not verified}}. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 00:34, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
:::(hits himself) sorry - missed that, thanks --[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 02:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' if we are 51-90% sure something is a hoax, we do the unsuspecting reader a disservice if they are not warned of this possibility while we continue our fact-checking. [[User:Johntex|Johntex]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Johntex|talk]]</sup> 19:23, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
** If we are 51-90% sure something is a hoax, then it gets AfD'd, with the statement that it might be a hoax there, and a great big sodoff link at the top saying the article might be deleted. Is that somehow not enough for the discerning reader to think twice about the article's content? [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 19:49, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
***Much of this discussion is the wrong way round. It isn't a question of whether we are 50-90% sure it is a hoax. We only include verifiable info. If there is 1% possibility of hoax, we try to verify the article. If we can't verify it - we delete it, period. {{tl|not verified}} or {{tl|afd}} are all we really require. --[[User:Doc glasgow|Doc]] [[User talk:Doc glasgow|(?)]] 10:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
****I don't think that this conflicts with what Chris wrote above. We seek to verify everything (and remove the content that cannot be verified), but we shouldn't allege that an article is a "hoax" unless we're fairly certain of this. There's a big difference between "I can't confirm that this article is true" (which could simply mean that the article is in need of cleanup) and "I believe that this article is false." In fact, {{tl|hoax}} goes a step further by specifying an accusation of vandalism. (Not all inaccurate articles are hoaxes. Some are written in good faith by people who mistakenly believe the information to be accurate.) —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' - An AFD notice is insufficient, as most articles nominated are truthful, and the nomination is usually unrelated to truth. The five days the hoax gets on wikipedia (and much longer on mirrors), is part of what helps the spread of these hoaxes (there can also be a circular effect, where others pick it from us, and we pick it back from them when it's recreated). Sure, this tag could be misused, but somebody who does that, could just as easily edit the article to say something isn't real. Spreading a lie, even for five days, is simply wrong. --[[User:Thivierr|rob]] 15:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
::1. We already have {{tl|not verified}}, which warns readers that an article might not be factual, and does so in NPOV fashion (without hurling accusations of bad faith). This certainly can be used in conjunction with {{tl|afd}}.
::2. {{tl|Hoax}} is explicitly indicated for application not strictly to articles that are strongly believed to be hoaxes, but to articles that are merely "'''suspected'''" to be hoaxes, '''including ones that have not been listed at AfD, and are merely being investigated'''. Again, {{tl|not verified}} covers such a situation well (without assuming bad faith). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 15:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
:::Well, I'm quite open to improved wording of the template (that can be discussed on the talk page). The "unverified" tag isn't good enough, because there are countless articles where verification is needed, but the information is likely true, or there's simply an honest mistake. A massive proportion of Wikipedia articles are like this. Hoaxes are maliscious attempts to deceive people. As an example, in a recent hoax, somebody pretended to be a famous music producer, working with a big-name rapper. They were using Wikipedia to promote what might have an illegal reproduction of the artists music (I'm not sure of the exact agenda). Tagging that as "unverified" puts it in league with many other music bios, that have all sorts of unsourced sales figures. There is a huge difference between Wikipedia making an honest mistake of information (which is sadly common) and helping a hoaxer intentionally deceive people. --[[User:Thivierr|rob]] 16:35, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
::::The template in question is called {{tl|not verified}} — not {{tl|unverified}}, which redirects to {{tl|no source}}. (The latter is an image tag, so I assume that you simply mistyped the name.)
::::No one is arguing that a deliberate hoax is the same thing as an honest mistake. The point is that it isn't always possible to differentiate between the two, so we should err on the side of caution. (It's better to tag a hoax as "not verified" — a true statement — than to risk tagging a good faith submission as "a hoax.") The purpose of such templates is ''not'' to punish contributors (including malicious ones); it's to warn readers that the article's information might not be accurate. From a reader's perspective, it makes no difference whether the inaccuracy is intentional or inadvertent (both of which justify removal, via either deletion or replacement). Unlike the {{tl|not verified}} template, the {{tl|hoax}} template is inherently non-NPOV. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 17:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::I was working from (faulty) memory, and I mistyped the template name (oops). I appreciate you have the best of intentions, but think you're trying to be to nice here. Take vandalism, we warn people nicely at first, but repeated vandalism, can escalate into a block within the first day, not five days. Also, think of all the times people say "vandalism" or "rvv" in edit summaries. I fully agree caution must be used before calling something a hoax, just as we shouldn't label users vandals, in cases where they screwed-up. Also, when you say from a reader's perspective there's little difference between inaccuracy or intentional error; that's wrong. Readers can forgive honest mistakes, but may not, and should not forgive maliscious errors. [[:Template:Not verified]] is used in hundreds of articles, and its high use, means it has little impact. [[:Template:Hoax]] would be used in only a few at any given time. Also, we already have rules in place to prevent overuse. [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:AGF]] seem to prohibit baseless allegations of a hoax. I've seen you give great arguements for *rare* use of this tag, but I can't understand why you oppose any use. --[[User:Thivierr|rob]] 17:48, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"I appreciate you have the best of intentions, but think you're trying to be to nice here."''</font>
::::::I'm not trying to be nice to vandals; I'm trying not to asperse legitimate articles and their contributors.
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"Also, when you say from a reader's perspective there's little difference between inaccuracy or intentional error; that's wrong. Readers can forgive honest mistakes, but may not, and should not forgive maliscious errors."''</font>
::::::The average Wikipedia reader neither knows nor cares about the specific identity of an article's author; he she uses the site strictly for informative/educational purposes. Obviously, those of us who participate in Wikipedia's creation and maintenance should treat a vandal much differently than we treat someone who committed an honest mistake. There's no need, however, to advertise this fact within the articles.
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"I've seen you give great arguements for *rare* use of this tag, but I can't understand why you oppose any use."''</font>
::::::In my assessment, the template is inherently non-NPOV and potentially harmful (even if used with extreme caution). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 19:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::[[:Template:Not verified]] is in no way a suitable substitute for [[Template:Hoax]]. The language on the not-verified template is far too mild for cases where we are pretty sure (but not yet sure enough to delete) than an article is a hoax. The not-verified template should be used for routine cases where there is some doubt about the facts, but not enough to say that the article is probably a hoax. [[User:Johntex|Johntex]]\<sup>[[User_talk:Johntex|talk]]</sup> 17:58, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"[[:Template:Not verified]] is in no way a suitable substitute for [[Template:Hoax]]."''</font>
::::::[[Template:Hoax]] is in no way a suitable substitute for [[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV]] and [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|the assumption of good faith]].
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"The language on the not-verified template is far too mild for cases where we are pretty sure (but not yet sure enough to delete) than an article is a hoax. The not-verified template should be used for routine cases where there is some doubt about the facts, but not enough to say that the article is probably a hoax."''</font>
::::::I understand the theoretical benefit of drawing such a distinction, but I don't believe that it's possible to do so reliably. (I've seen cases in which articles that appeared to be clear-cut hoaxes turned out to be legitimate.) To paraphrase an old legal principle, it's better to give ten vandals the benefit of the doubt than to unfairly accuse one innocent party of vandalism. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 19:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::I don't think we should publish 10 wanton lies, so that we can publish one poorly written truth. In fact, the 10 lies mean nobody will beleive us when we write the truth. Wikipedia has already gotten substantial bad press for much of the bogus info we publish. We generally defend ourselves, on the grounds that we quickly fix our errors. For some weird reason, we keep on letting articles that are 100% maliscious lies, sit for five days. Now, my first choice is a quicker delete, but if we must keep the lies, lets give an honest warning. --[[User:Thivierr|rob]] 10:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::::You don't believe that placing two enormous banners at the top of a page — one indicating that the article's veracity has not been verified, and the other indicating that the article is being considered for deletion — serves as an honest warning to our readers? It also is necessary to throw in a one-sided, non-[[Wikipedia:Neutral point of view|NPOV]] opinion?
::::::::As the newbies are scared away by false accusations of vandalism, the legitimate : malicious content ratio will only shift for the worse. Of course, you've indicated above that you aren't interested in preserving "poorly written truth[s]." If someone isn't a master author from day one, let's brand him/her a vandal along with the liars and other worthless contributors. We mustn't bother with this [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assumption of good faith]] nonsense. Right?
::::::::To be clear, the above is not an actual allegation of such a viewpoint on your part; it's my description of an unfortunate side effect that I believe is being overlooked by some. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
:::::::::If you wish to protect the reputation of the accused, than please support speedy deletes of confirmed hoaxes. We can improve the process, to ensure such deletes are verified by a second opinion (e.g. other admin). We can also require a message on the author's talk page, giving them a chance to explain themselves (and a message on the deleted articles talk page). But, you continue to understimate the serious lasting harm to readers, and Wikipedia's reputation, by these hoaxes. To me, this is like a store selling a product that it knows is probably inherently defective to the customer. Ideally, they wouldn't sell it, but if they do sell it, they ought to share their knowledge of the problem. --[[User:Thivierr|rob]] 12:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::::::I'm not attempting to downplay the harm of fraudulent articles. I simply believe that this template is likely to cause more damage than it prevents, and therefore is not a viable solution to the problem. I would support a much shorter AfD discussion period for deletions purely on the basis of wholesale unverifiability (2 days, perhaps?), but not a speedy deletion criterion. A second (or even third) opinion is insufficient, because there's no reason to assume that a small group of random admins is qualified to assess the veracity of a seemingly plausible (but unverifiable) claim. It isn't unheard-of for one person (out of everyone participating in an AfD discussion) to rescue an article from deletion by uncovering an elusive piece of evidence that establishes its legitimacy. It certainly helps to have the contributor take part in the debate, but suspicious articles often are authored by users who don't regularly visit Wikipedia and/or haven't registered accounts. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 13:21, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. {{tl|notverified}} and an AfD nom would render this redundant. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 06:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
**The AfD process is unsuitable (because too slow) for such articles as [[Archibald Fitzroy George Hay, 13th Earl of Kinnoull]]. Either [[WP:CSD]] is expanded to remove such obvious vandalism fast (and I see no support for that), or they ought to be tagged in some other way pending removal. {{tl|disputed}} just doesn't fit there. Also see [[M. Schuyler Towne]] while it's still up. The article is obvious, verified nonsense,; the author promised to come back and fix it, yet hasn't done so. {{tl|disputed}} ''might'' just fit here, {{tl|hoax}} fits better. Silly vandalism is on the increase. [[User:Pilatus|Pilatus]] 20:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
***I don't understand. According to the [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Archibald Fitzroy George Hay, 13th Earl of Kinnoull|AfD discussion]], [[Archibald Fitzroy George Hay, 13th Earl of Kinnoull]] was a real person, and this is verifiable. The disputed text has been removed. (Another option, had there been a greater degree of uncertainty, would have been to insert the {{tl|not verified}} template.) This individual might not be notable enough to warrant the article's existence, but how would the {{tl|hoax}} tag be of any benefit? As for [[M. Schuyler Towne]], the {{tl|disputed}} template is more than sufficient (and NPOV). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' merely tagging potential hoaxes won't solve anything. A category, such as [[:Category:Hoaxes]] would be more suitable for this kind of thing. It is less obvious, and Wikipedians who wanted to would be able to investigate them from the list of "member" articles. [[User:Izehar|Izehar]] 20:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
::It should be noted that this template categorizes articles in [[:Category:Suspected hoaxes]]. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:FAOL]]====
This template was created to highlight articles that have a featured-article equivalent in an other language wikipedia (see [[Wikipedia:Featured articles in other languages]]). But I think that it should be replaced by [[Template:FA link]], a smaller template that puts a small star in the interlanguage box (see [[Boeing 747]]). check also [[Wikipedia talk:Featured articles in other languages#Deleting Template:FAOL|here]] the same proposal that I've made but didn't get any responses. [[User:Cedar-Guardian|CG]] 18:21, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. The "Featured Article" interwiki star only works with the Monobook skin. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 00:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Template:FA link (currently a redirect to Template:Link FA) only notes for the benefit of readers that an article is featured in another language. Template:FAOL has a somewhat different meaning. It notes for the benefit of contributors that a featured article in another language is a likely source of additional information (which definitely isn't true for all featured articles in other languages). It also places the article in a category under [[:Category:Wikipedia featured articles in other languages]]. --[[User:Hoziron|Hoziron]] 03:04, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. {{tl|FAOL}} and its companion {{tl|FAOLdone}} are complementary to {{tl|link FA}}: they perform different tasks in different contexts. —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 11:53, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': Wait. Which is it? Is the purpose of Template:FAOL (1) to accomodate people who don't use the Monobook skin, or is it (2) to note articles which aren't just featured articles on other languages, but also happen to have valuable information that could assist the English article if it were utilized, or is it (3) to put the articles into the category of featured articles in various languages? The motivation here seems fairly confused. What if a featured article on a foreign-language Wikipedia ''doesn't'' have any information that we haven't yet utilized for our English Wikipedia article, but we ''do'' want to make it clear to non-monobookers that the article is a featured one, or we ''do'' want to put it in that category? What then? Or what if an article ''isn't'' featured on a foreign language Wiki, but ''does'' have lots of information on that Wiki that we would find highly valuable to use if it was translated and properly formatted? Why include the additional "featured article" requirement, if the chief point of Template:FAOL is to note foreign-language articles we can use to improve the English Wikipedia, rather than a template just to point out when there's a featured article in another language, a task already well-handled by Template:FA link for anyone who uses monobook. And wouldn't it make sense to have template:FA link also put articles into categories, so we wouldn't have to use two redundant templates for every featured article in every foreign language? This whole idea seems like an inefficient doubling of the steps required to note that a certain article is a featured one in a foreign language, one that could only lead to inconsistencies and unnecessary work. Never do with two templates what you could do with one. -[[User:Silence|Silence]] 12:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**First, thank you for your comment. I'll try to answer your questions. The [[Template:FAOL]] was created as the template of the [[Wikipedia:Featured articles in other languages]] page, which aims to provide good sources for translators, but also to make some kind of statistics to see the kind of articles that are being improved in other languages (for example the Hebrew Wikipedia emphasis on Israeli-related articles, while the French one has a big number of good philosophy and linguistics articles). And yes, you're right, a lot of these FA in other languages are doesn't contain valuable information (that's why you would find 7 templates in [[Talk:World War II]]), and it has been deleted from a number of talk pages because of it uselessness. That's there's should be a discussion to make a consensus about the use of these two templates. [[User:Cedar-Guardian|CG]] 16:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' This template is needed for users relatively unfamiliar with Wikipedia's arcane nomenclature and semiotics to transfer contents from featured homologues to those that need improvement. [[User:Saravask|Saravask]] 01:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Though its flawed beyond reason, this needs consensus in other locales before deletion. If you doubt that's its useless, see [[Talk:World War II]] where about 7 featured articles are linked. Of course, none is as thorough or as well written as the one in English (the Arabic one is laughably short), and many are ''translations'' of the English, but of course, that's not important. However, that's not really a reason to delete it. I think there need to be guidelines to its use, however.--[[User:naryathegreat|naryathegreat]] | [[User talk:Naryathegreat|(talk)]] 03:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' for above reasons. [[User:Enochlau|Enochlau]] 08:20, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Speedy keep'''. For all of the above reasons. [[User:BlankVerse|<font color=green>''Blank''</font>]][[User talk:BlankVerse|<font color=#F88017>''Verse''</font>]] 09:53, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' as per Saravask, although somewhat flawed, the template serves a great purpose. [[User:Hall Monitor|Hall Monitor]] 18:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Unicode hack]]====
'''Delete''': Blank, orphan, abandoned experiment. [[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 16:20, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*Can this not be '''speedy delete'''d? 19:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC) <small>Comment by [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]]</small>
*Agree that as blank, should be eligible for speedy. Tagged with {{tl|db-empty}} to grab an admin on CSD patrol. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 23:52, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
* I have '''speedied''' it as requested. [[User:JoJan|JoJan]] 09:24, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Danger]]====
'''Delete''': Also [[Template:Danger-adultsuper]] and [[Template:Danger-professional]]. See [[Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates]] for the rationale. Also being discussed at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (perennial proposals)#Warning boxes for dangerous activities and products]]. [[User:CesarB|cesarb]] 02:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
:If the Disclaimers link is to suffice, it should be at the ''top'' of the framework, with a small warning box, so that it is seen '''immediately'''. [[User:Seahen|Seahen]] 15:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete.''' [[Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates]], plus the fact that something is dangerous should already be documented (in a more encyclopedic and NPOV and less patronizing fashion) in the article. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 23:14, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete all''', in addition to ''those'' problems, the templates appear to be broken. ''That'' may not matter, but the breaking hides disclaimer information, which is '''very''' depreciated in templates. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 00:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete all'''. Anyone feel like organizing a vote to make disclaimer templates speedyable? --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 00:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete.''' [[Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates]]--[[User:Clawed|Clawed]] 01:02, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per above. — [[User:Davenbelle|Davenbelle]] 04:29, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Brisbane infobox]]====
'''Delete''' This infobox can only be used for a single city, and is redundant given the existence of [[Template:Infobox Australian City]]. --[[User:Dalziel 86|Dalziel 86]] 02:03, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Has been moved back to user space'''. [[User:Brisvegas|Brisvegas]] 05:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
===October 31===
====NOTE====
'''A bot is under production to automatically [[Help:Subst|subst]] certain templates. If you have suggestions for templates that should always (or never) be subst'ed, please contribute them to [[Wikipedia:Subst]].'''
====[[Template:Royal Welch Fusiliers]]====
'''Delete''' Yet another, one article only type template. This one can only ever be used in [[Royal Welch Fusiliers]] and should just be substed into it. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 22:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep and convert into infobox.''' [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 03:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Why keep then? Go right ahread and make a "fuiliers infobox", but once you have done that this template would be obsolete. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 15:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' I'm the creator of this template (and many similar ones). I've created Template:Infobox British Army regiment to replace them. In retrospect I should have done this when I initially set out to create these for all the regiment articles, but better late than never. I'll list the templates for deletion once I've completed the task. When I do, would it be possible to lump them under one section? [[User:SoLando|SoLando]] ([[User talk:SoLando|Talk]]) 19:35, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' If they are all of this kind I don't think anyone would mind them being lumped together. Check the history first though, if you are the only one who has edited them you can just put {{[[Template:db-g7|db-g7]]}} on them and bypass TFD altogeter. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 23:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers]]====
'''Delete''', another one of those templates that are only used in one article namely [[The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers]]. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 22:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
'''Keep and convert into infobox.''' [[User:Jtdirl|<span style="background-color: orange"><font ="center" color="#006666"><b>Fear<i>ÉIREANN</i></b>]][[Image:Ireland-Capitals.PNG|15px]]\<sup><font color=blue>[[user_talk:Jtdirl|(caint)</sup><font color=black>]] 03:44, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Avram table]]====
'''Delete''', this one was only used in [[Avram]], don't rely see the point in a seperate template for this, I just substed it into the article itself. Some kind of "micronation infobox" template might be in order though if anyone is interested. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 21:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Fair use-firefox]]====
'''Delete''' and retag images as {{[[Template:Logo|Logo]]}}, unlike the Disney logo ting this is not used for subcategorisation (it puts images in the generic [[:Category:Logos]]), also it only apply to like 4 images (one of wich I nominated for [[WP:IFD|deletion]] because it was only used on a userpage). Moreover the purpose of the template seems to be to validate the use of FireFox logos on userpages based on the fact that FireFox says that you can use the logo on your webpage to promote FireFox. IMHO this permission means little as [[Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy]] '''explicitly''' states that "fair use" images should '''not''' be used on userpages (or templates). --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 16:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': IANAL, but as far as I know once you're granted permission to use an image on, say, your web page, the use of it in that context ceases to be fair use. [[User:Lord Bob|Lord Bob]] 16:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': As to permission for "promotional usage"--promotional usage tends to run counter to [[WP:NOT]] a soapbox. Also, on the page for button programs, it says at the bottom "Usage guidelines for the new logos is currently under development."[http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/buttons.html] I'm not sure exactly what to make of that; it sounds like the conditions are subject to change.
:For uses other than as a promotional button on a web page, there are restrictions to personal or non-commercial uses: "Sure, if it's just for you, or if it's for others and no money or other consideration changes hands" [http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/faq.html] All in all, it sounds like a grey area with no compelling justification for why we need to do this.
:IMO, we should stick to fair-use {{tl|Logo}} for these, and abide by the restrictions that entails: using the image in articles as identification or illustration when the product or trademark owner in question is a subject of discussion. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 18:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' or '''Rewrite & rename''':
*#The copyright holder, firefox states that they are ok with the usage of the image on web pages, hence we have a greater level of permission compared to the standard "Fair use". And as far as copyrights are concerned the copyright holder granted me the permission to use the firefox logo on my userpage for a "promotional usage".
*#It is plainly "kawaii" (cute) to have the firefox logo on my userpage rather than an annoying "FF" in its place.
*#If I can say "I like firefox" on my userpage, I should also be allowed to use the logo as well as far as [[WP:NOT]] is concerned.
*:--[[User:Cool Cat|<small>Cool Cat</small>]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|<sup><small>Talk</small></sup>]] 20:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', this is ''way'' too specific. Just use {{tl|Logo}}, in combination with other existing tags if any apply. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 22:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*:The Problem is logo doesnt do the level of usage of the images we are granted by copyright holder. --[[User:Cool Cat|<small>Cool Cat</small>]] [[User talk:Cool Cat|<sup><small>Talk</small></sup>]] 14:37, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' re-write somehow. I'm out of my league here, but could <nowiki>{{Promotional}}</nowiki> be of any use? - [[User:RoyBoy|Roy]][[User talk:RoyBoy|'''Boy''']] <sup>[[User:RoyBoy/The 800 Club|800]]</sup> 00:04, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
**{{tl|Promotional}} is a fair-use justification, and we don't do fair use on user pages any more. So it doesn't help those who are committed to Wikipedia as a personal web host. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 05:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 19:56, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Cool Cat, and "not a soapbox" does not apply to user pages. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 23:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
** Just note that 3 of the 4 images with this tag are used on article pages. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 07:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. This template serves a very specific purpose, but said purpose is valid and unserved by other templates. When placed on a user page, this is ''not'' an example of fair use (because the copyright holder has provided explicit consent). While Wikipedia is not a personal hosting service, we're permitted to include some autobiographical information on our user pages (especially when it pertains to our Wikipedia participation, as browser selection does). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 23:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Just how would you clasify these logos anyway? Free use? Defenently not, they are copyrighted and trademarked, and have several restrictions. Used with permission? That runs afoul of [[WP:CSD#I3]]. Promotional? All promotional images are still used under a fair use rationale. Conditional use? Nope, they must allow derivative works to fit in that category (wich they don't). We would have to invert a whole new licence type to allow this use as far as I can tell.<br /><br />Also note at the end of the quote from the FAQ it says "''Put one or more of '''these buttons''' on your website to help us spread the word about Firefox.''" (emphasis mine), it does not say "''use any Mozilla logo you like''", and only [[:Image:Firefox logo 305x150.png]] seems to actualy be one of [http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/buttons.html those buttons]. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 17:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as per nom [[User:Dr.alf|dr.alf]] 12:00, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Pdf icon]]====
'''Delete''' it's one and only function is to insert a PDF icon into an article, use of fair use images in templates is a big no-no acording to [[Wikipedia:Fair use#Policy]]. It was only used in 3-4 articles all by the same person, so I just orphanded it because the articles would look extremely ugly with the huge TFD notice for these small icons. If someone wants to replace the image with a free one (some text saying "pdf" maybe) that's fine with me, but this current form has to go. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 09:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''DELETE''' I am the user who uploaded the icon. I have no problem with its deletion. [[User:Saravask|Saravask]] 10:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' and note that you can achieve the same functionality other ways, though it wouldn't be completely trivial. Something like this in your <tt>monobook.css</tt>, though you'll need to tweak it with padding and whatnot:
a[href$=".pdf"] { background-image: url('.../pdficon.png'); }
:—<span class="horsepunchkid">[[User:HorsePunchKid|<span style="font-family: monospace; font-variant: small-caps;">HorsePunchKid</span>]]→[[User talk:HorsePunchKid|<span style="color: #070;">龜</span>]]</span> 20:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Australia Primetime Sunday]]====
Also:
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Monday]]
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Tuesday]]
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Wednesday]]
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Thursday]]
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Friday]]
*[[Template:Australia Primetime Saturday]] (perhaps - red link added in case the template is created)
*[[Template:US Primetime Thursday]]
This is a procedural nomination moved from [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Australia Primetime Sunday|a misplaced listing]] on AFD. [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]]'s reasoning there was that "Wikipedia is not a TV guide. also, this is unmaintainable." No opinion from me. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 08:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete'''. Get rid as soon as possible! We can't have this spammed on the pages of the series and I'm going to remove them from articles as this is clearly not appropriate. If the result is to keep then they could be readded. In some cases there are three templates per article and the problem would just get worse and worse. Have an article about the TV schedules, but not a template on every article for every channel in every country. [[User:Violetriga|violet/riga]] [[User_talk:violetriga|(t)]] 11:58, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. unmaintainable, too many templates, not a tv guide, ..... [[User:JPD|JPD]] [[User talk:JPD|(talk)]] 12:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong keep.''' There is a US equivalent, and these are useful and interesting templates. I do suggest, however, removing them from foreign television shows, as they just would not scale if that were the case. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] 12:31, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
::Define "foreign" on an international website........--[[User:ElvisThePrince|ElvisThePrince]] 13:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
:::"foreign" means the country of broadcast is different from the country of production. --[[User:ScottDavis|Scott Davis]] <sup>[[User talk:ScottDavis|Talk]]</sup> 13:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
::::OK what about say HBO/BBC co-productions?--[[User:ElvisThePrince|ElvisThePrince]] 01:06, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Transwiki''' to [[Wikinews:]], of course. -- [[User:Zondor|Zondor]] 12:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
'''Comment'''
I was the one who created these templates. I just happen to stumble across [[Template:US Primetime Thursday]] when correcting links to ''[[Will & Grace]]''. Liking the look of the template, I proceeded to create ones for Australian television and placed the templates on the appropriate pages. [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] discovered what I was doing and some discussion regarding the templates took place [[User talk:Ianblair23|on my talk page]]. However [[User:Chuq|Chuq]] then suggested that templates be created for each network rather then each day. I then came up with the following:
{| {{prettytable2}} cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 align=center bgcolor=#000000
|-
| colspan=7 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<center>'''[[Seven Network]] Daily [[Primetime]] Schedule'''
|-
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>7:30
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>8:00
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>8:30
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>9:00
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>9:30
| rowspan=1 width="14%" bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>10:00
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Sunday]]'''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''??''
| colspan=4 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''Sunday Night Film''
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Monday]]'''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[The Great Outdoors]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Grey's Anatomy]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[24 (television)|24]]''
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Tuesday]]'''
| colspan=4 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Dancing with the Stars]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[All Saints (Australian television)|All Saints]]''
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Wednesday]]'''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Beyond 2000#Beyond Tomorrow|Beyond Tomorrow]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Blue Heelers]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Forensic Investigators]]''
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Thursday]]'''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[The Mole]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Las Vegas (TV series)|Las Vegas]]''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[24 (television)|24]]''
|-
| bgcolor=#00FFFF|<small><center>'''[[Friday]]'''
| colspan=2 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''[[Better Homes and Gardens]]''
| colspan=4 bgcolor=#E0FFFF|<small><center>''Friday Night Film''
|}
This is as far as it went. Now I discover that the templates have been put up for deletion. There is currently no tfd tags on any of the templates except for Sunday and most have been removed from the articles without discussion and without any notification to me.
So, may I suggest a compromise. Lets delete these nightly primetime templates and replace them with the network primetime templates like the example above. This way they can be placed on the article about the network (e.g. [[Seven Network]]). Also I agree with [[User:Ambi|Ambi]] that these templates should only be placed on articles about Australian programmes. How does that sound with everybody?? -- [[User:Ianblair23|Ianblair23]] [[User talk:Ianblair23|(talk)]] 13:13, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. too granular. there is a discussion at [[User_talk:Ianblair23#Australia_television_templates]] on this where a weekly template per network is proposed. I'd probably support that. -- [[User:Ianbrown|Ian]] ≡ [[User_talk:Ianbrown|talk]] 13:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
:Whoops! posted just after Ianblairs post above. I concur with his proposal. -- [[User:Ianbrown|Ian]] ≡ [[User_talk:Ianbrown|talk]] 13:24, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''comment''' templates are not required if they only go on one article (the network). I guess templates are useful if they go on each member channel as well, but I don't know if they are always consistent across states (eg football). --[[User:ScottDavis|Scott Davis]] <sup>[[User talk:ScottDavis|Talk]]</sup> 13:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Network-specific tables would be nice, but I agree, they don't need templates. Also, I think it's more usual for the days to run horizontally and the times vertically, but that's a minor nitpick. Anyway, more should have been done before this TfD. [[User:Bwithh|Bwithh]] (the original nominator) should have made an attempt to contact the creator, ie [[User:Ianblair23]]. Obviously some work has gone into these. Let's not rush to throw out so much content so quickly. [[User:Pfctdayelise|pfctdayelise]] 13:50, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. If the table is only on the network page, it shouldn't be a template. I don't personally see much value in having a table showing what's on on the programme pages, and am not really happy with the half-done solution of only having the table for the country of origin. Also, note that one of the US templates is also listed above - the Australian ones should definitely not be considered separately. [[User:JPD|JPD]] [[User talk:JPD|(talk)]] 18:36, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' As I understand his proposal, the template would go on the network page and the articles for all Australian produced shows within that template. In other words, [[24 (television)]] would appear in the template, but it's article wouldn't suddenly get primetime network templates from tons of countries, only the US, while [[Blue Heelers]] would get the template from it's Aussie network. — [[User:Laurascudder|Laura Scudder]] | [[User talk:Laurascudder|Talk]] 20:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
***That is 100% correct Laura. How does that sound? -- [[User:Ianblair23|Ianblair23]] [[User talk:Ianblair23|(talk)]] 11:22, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. As the one who originated the US Thursday template, I will refrain from voting. I will, however, make the following comments:
:::#I created that solely to see how people would react to it, and to see if anyone would pick up and create tables for the other days (again, to judge whether or not people found them useful). I thought the issue was dead when other days didn't pop up, not realizing someone in Australia had picked it up.
:::#I fail to see how this is "unmaintainable". Unless a show completely bombs by the end of October, it only requires updating at new season and midseason.
:::#I strongly object to whoever removed the templates from the pages before this vote was concluded. That's equivalent to blanking a page and then putting it up for deletion, in my eyes, and that's poor Wikipedia etiquette, also (perhaps) strictly IMO.
Otherwise, I don't care one way or another how this vote goes. [[User:Sahasrahla|Sahasrahla]] 22:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', unnecessary metadata.--[[User:Petaholmes|nixie]] 05:41, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. I would prefer the lists stored in [[:Category:TV schedules]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 03:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
**And yes, they all survived [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1959-60 American network television schedule|AFD]]. [[User:Zzyzx11|Zzyzx11]] [[User talk:Zzyzx11|(Talk)]] 03:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' per Ambi. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
===October 30===
====[[Template:Partof]]====
This template is overkill. To list a related article, we use a "see also" section towards the bottom. Using indented text at the top is improper format. Furthermore, an article is ''not'' part of a series ([http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=series def: number of objects or events arranged or coming one after the other in succession]) if it is not part of the list. This template is being used for articles that are not part of a series (only topically related to the series) and improperly labels them as being part of a series. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 13:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', agree completely with the Jiang. This is also a needless, and unsightly, duplicate of the categorization system. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 13:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I do not agree, since the articles is used for articles that are part of the series mentioned in the template. If I by accident used this template in an article not part of the series, the template should be removed there (as it was used in the Japanese parties). Furthermore I do not see any harm if used in an article that is part of series. [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 14:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**there is no series to speak of: 1) if there is a series, then can you demonstrate a logical order for the articles? 2) if there is a series, then why do we not use the series template and resort to using this template? In addition, what does this template accomplish that cannot be accomplished with a simple "see also" list towards the bottom? --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 14:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
***The problem is that with many of these articles, there is allready a infobox on the specific person. If the series template would be used, thic could cause problems. But OK, I'll try. [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 15:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
****why not use a footer? but this is besides the point. the series you speak of do not exist. these articles follow no logical order. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 15:20, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*****There is a series. It is logical, but not chronological. [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 16:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Categories, navboxes, and See also links already serve any purpose this intrusive template would serve. - [[User:A Man In Black|A Man In <span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; font-weight: bold;"><font color="000000">Black</font></span>]] <small>([[User talk:A_Man_In_Black|conspire]] | [[Special:Contributions/A Man In Black|past ops]])</small> 14:29, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**See above. I will place the navbox in the article (but there will also be a reaction). [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 15:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''The top of the article is not the place for "See also" links. It is simply clutter.--[[User:Mais oui!|Mais oui!]] 14:52, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**It is not an see also link. Furthermore, are we also against the [[:template|Background|Background]] and the [[:template:Main|Main]] templates? [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 15:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
***main template is not placed on the top of the page; background template follows a strict mother-daughter article relationship according to [[wikipedia:summary style]]. i don't see how this is not simply a see also link. the series do not exist. you are linking to a related, topical article. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 15:20, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
****There is a series. It is logical, but not chronological. [[User:Wilfried Derksen|Electionworld]] 16:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': This template is no longer being used. Electionworld and I are discussing converting the politics templates to footers, so they can be less obtrusive. I will start a discussion at the 'Pump shortly. --[[User:Jiang|Ji]][[User talk:Jiang|ang]] 12:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Wikipedia:Instruments]]====
In variation to [[Wikipedia:Babel]], this page contains dozens of templates such as {{tl|User horn-1}} ("this user is a novice hornist") and {{tl|User org-4}} ("this user is a professional organist") and accompanying catagories. Nearly all of those aren't actually used. At the risk of going out on a limb, I would propose simplifying it a lot by removing the "skill levels" and simply leaving [[:Category:Wikipedians by instrument]]. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 10:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. Totally harmless. As long as they serves some kind of community purpose and doesn't interfere with anything important, why get rid of things used in userspace? I would, however support getting rid of the categories for each skill level and just lumping as "Hornist", "Organist" etc. unless those categories get overly populated. The templates themselves, though, should stay. -- [[User:Tyler McHenry|Tyler]] 10:18, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. IMO even levels should remain, because being able to play "[[Frère Jacques]]" is not the same thing as being able to play "[[The Flight of the Bumblebee]]" or "[[Eruption (song)|Eruption]]" by [[Van Halen]]. However, I might agree that four levels are not strictly necessary, maybe three or even just two would suffice; anyway, since they don't harm, they could as well stay. --[[User:Army1987|Army1987]] 20:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep''' I think that not only should the levels be left, but ''all'' the levels. I agree with [[User:Army1987|Army1987]] about [[Frère Jacques]]/[[The Flight of the Bumblebee]], and while there may not be many higher level players for some instruments (for instance, there are currently only 3 professional saxaphone players) the fact that there is ONE is grounds for keeping that level. And for the sake of ''continuity'' (for lack of a better word- someone substitute the one I'm looking for) there should be the same number of levels for each one. Eventually (in theory at least) someone will fill themselves into each one- the same theory that Wikipedia eventaully approaches perfection.
[[User:Wildyoda|Wildyoda]] 03:09, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
:You mean ''consistence''. However, to avoid having many underpop'd categories as Tyler says, we could ''keep'' the templates, ''remove'' level-specific categories and replacing <code><nowiki>[[Category:User {{{instrument-cat-code}}}|{{PAGENAME}}]]</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>[[Category:User {{{instrument-cat-code}}}|{{{level}}}]]</nowiki></code>. This way there will be one category per instrument, but users will be sorted by level. (This is just an idea, IMO as long as those categories don't harm they can remain.)--[[User:Army1987|Army1987]] 16:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep all''' for sake of uniformity (with Bable). We definitely should keep {{tl|User vocals-0}}, and the skill level distinction is fairly useful. — <span style="font-variant:small-caps;font-family:sans-serif;">[[User:Ambush Commander|Ambush Commander]]</span><sup style="font-family:serif;">([[User talk:Ambush Commander|Talk]])</sup> 04:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. For our kind of encyclopedia, musical talent is an important asset. Let's hope we get more contributions in this vein in future.--[[User:Pharos|Pharos]] 09:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. It's fun, quirky, harmelss and helps build the community. [[User:The Land|The Land]] 10:10, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep all''' They help to create a more bonded community by allowing us to relate on musical instruments and appreciate one anothers talents, they're beneficial and I would strongly hope to keep them. [[User:Patman2648|Patman2648]] | [[User_talk:Patman2648|talk]] 21:00, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' could be useful for collaborating on music related articles. '''[[User:NSR|NSR]]''' ([[User talk:NSR|talk]]) 01:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
====User sco templates====
*{{tl|User sco 0}}
*{{tl|User sco 1}}
*{{tl|User sco 2}}
*{{tl|User sco 3}}
*{{tl|User sco 4}}
*{{tl|User sco N}}
These seem to be used by some of the user-language templates but not by others. And I can't really see why any of them would be used, since thyey are hardly "shortcuts". Who in their right mind would type in ''{{tl|user sco 1}}'' rather than simply typing ''1''? And {{tl|User sco N}} defies even the tenuous logic of having the rest of these as templates - it returns ''M''! Unless there's a perfectly logical reason that I have overlooked, I don't think these should survive. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 07:14, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', they all just seem to be numbers. Unless there's some technical reason for this? -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 08:28, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*:It appears that the reason for this is to hook to categories in the Scots Wikipedia. For some bizarre reason, they're using M instead of N for native speakers (even though other languages where the equivalent of "native" does not start with an N still use N). Since there is a parameter <nowiki>{{{level}}}</nowiki>, they'd need to have some way of changing the level. The only way to do this is to wrap it in another template by level. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 03:08, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*If they were actual user-language templates they would be for speakers of {{ll|Scots}}. If someone cares to make them such, then of course keep. But in their current state, '''delete'''. --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|<sub>{{IPA|tɔk tə mi}}</sub>]] 17:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**They already exist at {{tl|User sco-1}} etc (with hyphens). [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...<font color=green><small>''[[User_talk:Grutness|wha?''</small></font>]] 00:17, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*<s>'''Keep''' until someone knocks some sense into sco:, '''delete''' thereafter.</s> Actually, it seems that several languages to this, see the list of [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:User_en-N&action=edit included templates]]. '''Keep''' until WM policy on how to do this across all Wikipediae can be formed. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 03:12, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*A possible technical reason: These seem to be for the purpose of mapping our system of language levels (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, N) to those of other languages. For these templates, it seems that speakers of {{ll|Scots}} also use 0-4 for language levels; however, they use 'M' instead of 'N'—apparently preferring ''mither tung'' (mother tongue) to ''native''. A better example would be mapping the language levels to {{ll|Asturian}}, where {{tl|User ast 1}}, {{tl|User ast 2}}, etc. map the numerals to equivalent words in Asturian. These apparently exist as templates (as opposed to just typing in the translated text/numeral) for more flexible use in templates like {{tl|User language subcategory}}, to create properly-mapped interwiki links on user-language subcategory pages to the corresponding subcategories in other languages. For example, {{cl|User en-N}} (which uses the User language subcategory template) would link to the corresponding [[:sco:Category:User en-M|User en-''M'']] subcategory in [[:sco:Main_Page|Wikipaedia Scots]]. (It doesn't, actually, because the TfD message currently breaks the User language subcategory template when it tries to call {{tl|User sco N}}.) Were these templates to be deleted, the interwiki link would point to the nonexistant subcategory [[:sco:Category:User en-N|User en-''N'']]. I vote a '''weak keep'''. These templates certainly have their legitimate uses; however, at least for the specific case with Scots, any breakage resulting from deleting these templates (to my knowledge) would seem to be relatively minimal and could be fixed by making a category redirect on Wikipaedia Scots and editing the User language subcategory template so it doesn't try to re-map the language levels for the Scots interwiki link.[[User:Jeffrey Smith|—Jeff]] 03:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
**Category redirects don't work. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 00:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
===October 29===
==== [[Template:D-t]]====
This is a new way of proposing a template for speedy deletion without specifing a reason. As none of the [[WP:CSD]] apply specifically to templates anyway, this could only be legitimately used under the general criteria (vandalism or nonsense, for example). This is a very rare occurance, and such a mechanism is not needed for it. '''Delete''' [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 00:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*Ok, forget that template, I don't want it anymore (I created it). '''Speedy delete''' it, and also delete {{tl|d-t-talk}}, the pointer to the talk page. ({{tl|db-t}} could also be tossed if need be, there may or may not be a reason to retain it any longer, it depends). [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 01:09, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. No need for a tiny version of {{[[Template:delete|delete]]}}; any templates that fall under the general criteria should be orphaned on sight anyway. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 03:17, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Speedy deleted''' per [[WP:CSD|CSD G7]]. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 02:44, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:InMemoriam]]====
*'''Delete''': Although I support linking to the memorial site from relevant articles, I don't see why we need a template simply for a link. I imagine this template was created to discourage people from creating overly conspicuous or elaborate links to the memorial, but hopefully that is no longer such a pressing problem. Instead of having a template, we should simply encourge editors to create normal links to the memorial from the External links sections of the various articles. That way we're not wasting processor power on generating a link from a template. [[User:Kaldari|Kaldari]] 19:09, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': I created this to resolve an edit war on [[Template:Sep11]] over the placement of a prominent link to [[Sep11:Main Page]]. Some people wanted it in the series box, some people didn't, and most were quite pigheaded about it. Initially it was a box like the other sister project templates ([[Template:Wikiquote]], [[Template:Commons]], etc.), so the link would get the extra prominence that Side 1 wanted, but wouldn't be placed on the same footing as the articles in the series, which is what Side 2 didn't like. I don't care one way or another whether this is deleted or not; both the main edit warriors on the issue are long gone, so I doubt they care too much either. (Though, of course, others might take their place . . . but we'll burn that bridge when we come to it.) —[[User:Mirv|Charles P.]][[User talk:Mirv| <small>(Mirv)</small>]] 02:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:RAÄ]]====
Doesn't really say anything about use that [[Template:Restricted use]] doesn't, is used only on one image (which I'm retagging right now). As well, I don't really think we want to encourage uploads of such images by providing a template, so '''delete'''. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 16:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. In fact, take out the fair use bit, and this would be a double-whammy as ''"non-commercial use only"'' and '"'by-permission, Wikipedia only"''. (Both are prohibitted, of course.) [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 01:39, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:GameCoverInfo]]====
Basically transcludes [[Template:Gamecover]] with a few parameters at the top to specify source and copyright info. However, the parameters are in such an unintuitive format that it's probably easier just to type them in in the upload box. It's unused to boot, so '''delete'''. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 16:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' I find it useful and helpful. [[User:Patman2648|Patman2648]] | [[User talk:Patman2648|talk]] 21:10 31 October 2005 (UTC)
**Have you ever actually used it though? This template is unused. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 02:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:GameScreenshotInfo]]====
Along the same lines as [[Template:GameCoverInfo]], and I think it should be '''delete'''d for the same reason. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 16:33, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Wikipedia subcat guideline]]====
Discussion moved to [[Wikipedia_talk:Template_messages/Project_namespace#Discussion]], per<blockquote>If a template is part of (the functioning of) a [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines|Wikipedia policy or guideline]], the template cannot be listed for deletion on TfD ''separately'', the template should be discussed where the discussion for that guideline is taking place.</blockquote>There is no ''operational'' alternative for the "Wikipedia subcat guideline" template yet; destroying it would cause problems for several active guidelines.
The discussion about the template on the "Template messages" talk page as mentioned above, was listed also on [[wikipedia:current surveys]]
So, please turn to [[Wikipedia_talk:Template_messages/Project_namespace#Discussion]] for further comments and/or improvement proposals. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 09:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:PD-ABN]]====
'''Delete''' for several reasons, first of all it is incorect, images from that source is '''not''' PD, they can be used freely '''provided''' atribution is given, but they are not public ___domain. Secondly it's only used on one image, and finaly it's bascaly a duplicate of [[Template:ABr]], wich corectly states that the images are copyrighted, but can be used as long as credit is given. I recomend it's one image be re-tagged {{[[Template:ABr|ABr]]}} after this is deleted. --[[User:Sherool|Sherool]] 00:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom, I would have nominated if no one else did. [[User:Wcquidditch|Wcquidditch]] | [[User talk:Wcquidditch|Talk]] 14:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 18:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as above. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 20:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
===October 28===
====[[Template:Limited Use-person]]====
Nominated for sake of consistency with consideration of [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion#Template:Limited_Use|Template:Limited_Use]] below, for the same reasons. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 19:26, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strongly delete'''. I reproduce my comment from below for consistency. I fully appreciate the point of the template, but the fact is that ''anything'' you upload here to which you own the copyright ''is'' under the GFDL, '''''and it does not matter what other templates you stick on it'''''. The GFDL explicitly allows for '''''any''''' use, and this template spcifically restricts the usage and is thus incompatible with long-standing Wikipedia policy. Like the user-page template before it, creating a new template is ''not'' the way to change policy. The way to do that is to contact the Foundation's lawyers. Everything we do here ourselves we give away freely; if your work is not compatible with that, you need not contribute it. I note that compared to the template below, the word "encyclopedic" has been omitted, which is interesting, but makes no difference to the GFDL status. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 19:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**Are you saying that the people tagging their uploads as PD, CC-by-sa, or fairuse are not making valid license choices? Please clarify. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 05:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
***If you upload something to which you hold the copyright, it is licensed under the GFDL, regardless of how else you tag it. You can also tag it in other ways, but the GFDL is always there: those who upload with cc-by-sa and the like are ''multi''-licensing, not single licensing under their chosen tag. The presumption of this template on the other hand, is to upload something to which you hold the copyright but to ''not'' do so under the GFDL, an action that, under current policy, cannot be taken, as stated clearly on [[Special:Upload]]. Which is to say that the template is extremely misleading: you can tag with it sure, but I can then soundly ignore it and use the image in whatever way I like anyway. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 07:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
****Note that if you want to upload a file with a free, non-GFDL license, there's always the [[Wikimedia Commons]]. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 07:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Not free. --[[User:Carnildo|Carnildo]] 20:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' per nom. [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 19:00, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', same reasons as other template. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 22:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', non-free. --[[User:ChrisRuvolo|ChrisRuvolo]] ([[User talk:ChrisRuvolo|t]]) 05:27, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Extension'''. Nominator failed to add tfd to the template. Decision should be delayed for a few more days although delete seems likely. [[User:RedWolf|RedWolf]] 17:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:Twoversions]]====
This template was deleted by [[User:David Gerard]] and then undeleted by [[User:DESiegel]]. I agree with David (Gerard), who stated [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template_talk:Twoversions&diff=26606597&oldid=17442452#Unilateral_action_contrary_to_a_vote_from_a_rouge_admnin.2C_David_Gerard] that this template is "''...a blatant encouragement to violate NPOV and substitute Sympathetic Point Of View.''" [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 16:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*NPOV is not up for a vote. Why do you people seem to think it is? - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 11:07, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*Which David do you agree with? :) My undeltion does not seem to ahve been successful, at least I still can't see the earlier versions. I undeleted because this was delted with no process or consensus at all, and because the last TfD on this had a keep result. I agree that encouraging edit wars and PoV disputes is a bad idea. '''Abstain''' pending furhter debate on the merits of this template. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 16:54, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''delete''', per Carbonite and David Gerard. Further existence of this template is poisonous to Wikipedia and immediate deletion is called for. Process is good for general cases, but isn't required when something this contrary to our core principles appears. [[User:Unfocused|<FONT COLOR="#66CCFF">Un</FONT>]][[User talk:Unfocused|<FONT COLOR="#0000CC">focused</FONT>]] 17:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete. Do not speedy.''' Forks are evil, but instead of deleting this template out-of-process we can just fix any situation that it ends up being used in, until it's deleted. ~~ '''[[User:Nickptar|N]]''' ([[User talk:Nickptar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Nickptar|c]]) 17:29, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**NPOV beats "process" - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 11:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' Good idea in principle, but I would like to see how you would fix the situation in all instances of its usage by [[User:Instantnood]]. See what is happening in the latest attempt by a well-intention admin to resolve them: [[User talk:Dmcdevit/Mediation]].--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 17:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', per Unfocused. I don't really see the merits of this template, and it has caused more trouble than it was meant to prevent. [[User:Titoxd|Tito]]<font color="#008000">[[Wikipedia:Esperanza|xd]]</font><sup>([[User_talk:Titoxd|?!?]])</sup> 17:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*Strong '''keep'''. A very useful template to halt edit warring, and possibly, bring the parties to discussion. <cite id=guidelines_needed> </cite>Better guideline is necessary to state clearly which of the two versions should be displayed (e.g. based on what the articles were like before the disputes, in other words, based upon the original intents). Better enforcement is also necessary to avoid individuals like [[user:Huaiwei]] who ignored what the template said - "'' Please do not revert to the other disputed version unless it is decided on the discussion page that this should be done.'' " - and insisted to have their preferred versions displayed. The template tagged on the article should better be as minimal as possible, and the links to the other version and to the diffs can be provided on the talk page by a sister template. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 17:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**Far more often, the template is used inappropriately. For example, you tagged [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=National_pastime&diff=24990675&oldid=24984609] [[National pastime]] due to a disagreement about how Hong Kong should be classified. In practice, this is almost always the manner in which this template is used. I've seen almost no evidence of it halting edit wars or helping parties to reach consensus. [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 18:56, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
***Do you mean I should not have applied the template? In your opinion, what should I do instead to stop the POV pushers like user:Huaiwei and user:SchmuckyTheCat who refused to follow how things were presented prior to their contentious edits? — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
****Well, yes, I believe that you shouldn't have applied the template in that instance. That dispute was about one line of text. I honestly have no idea about the POV of you, Huaiwei or STC, but I do know that placing the twoversions template on the article wasn't going to settle any dispute. This template shouldn't even be an option for settling a dispute. We need to work on getting ''one'' NPOV article, not ''two'' different POV articles. [[User:Carbonite|Carbonite]] | [[User talk:Carbonite|Talk]] 19:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*****Without the template that one line would be reverted back and off, for I had no idea how I could get user:Huaiwei and user:SchmuckyTheCat to get along with the way presented prior to their edits, while discussion was in process. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
******Nice try, but dont blame the system for individual faults.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 20:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
****What else can be done? Yes I can understand how frustated you must be feeling now that a [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Instantnood|Requests for comment]] and two arbcoms ([[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Instantnood, et al.]], [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Instantnood 2]]) hasent managed to solve your problem. Poor individual admins who invest time and energy to try to resolve has faltered one after another, with the [[User talk:Dmcdevit/Mediation|latest]] hanging in the balance with a threat like "I have no comment unless the first steps are done". But I sure hope you are not demanding for this template's existance by saying Carbonite cant give you a solution to your problem. Like I constantly remind, learn to take responsiblity and ownership of the problems you are part of, and quit constantly expecting others to solve them for you.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 20:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*****Those are not two ArbCom cases, the second part was a reopening for the close for the first part was procedurally and technically incorrectly performed. Please also take a look at what the arbitrators have said about user:Huaiwei and user:SchmuckyTheCat: [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Instantnood_2/Proposed_decision#Instantnood.27s_behavior_in_context|[1]]] [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Instantnood_2/Proposed_decision#Edit_warring_by_Huaiwei_and_SchmuckyTheCat|[2]]]. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 20:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
****''[[Wikipedia:Five pillars|any writing you contribute can be mercilessly edited]]'' there is no reason to expect people will follow how things are presented prior to their edits. Nobody owns the text, intent or title of an article and they can and will change. It's a wiki, get over it. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 20:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Obliterate''' We have {{tl|POV}} for such things, whereas this template implies that you are looking at [[m:The Wrong Version|The Wrong Version]]. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 18:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*Strong '''delete'''. [[User:Instantnood]]'s himself has actually proven to be one of the worse abusers of this template, and for him to bring it up for [[Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Template:Twoversions|undeletion]] and then to support its continued existance here demonstrates the extent to which individuals who circumvent the mediation and dispute resolution process can go to archieve their aims. Not a single usage of this template by instantnood has resulted in resolution of any kind, with all of them continuing to remain in their respective pages till this template was deleted. Plenty of these pages resulted in worse edit warring (not just over the version to be displayed as instantnood claims, but much more so over the usage of the template itself), with some even being on page protection just to preserve this template. Even now that the template has been deleted, he continues to add a "legacy" of its existance with "dispute notices" in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_airports_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=26631057&oldid=26627607] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_companies_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=26617631&oldid=26615601]. A new revert war now erupts between us over the retention of this notice. As what [[User:Calton]] describes in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_companies_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=26622908&oldid=26617631], '''"nice try: it's the twoversions tag in different clothing"'''.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 18:17, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''':<cite id="ignoring_the_template"> </cite> Some of my usage of this template involved disputes with [[user:Huaiwei]], who insisted to drop the template, and to display his preferred version, i.e. ignored what the template said. To my experience, that made discussion not quite possible, therefore better enforcement is needed to avoid people who ignore what the template said. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 18:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
***As also mentioned here [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review&diff=26723028&oldid=26722689], lets get the facts straight via a simple chronological recount of how a typical usage of the template results in when it involves you. First, an edit war erupts. At the end of three reverts and with the page still not showing the version you prefer, you pop in a "twoversions" tag after reverting again to your version. When I proceed to remove this tag by reverting back to my version, you revert it back to your version with the template, saying "the twoversions tag is not meant to endorse any version", and insists I am "flouting its intentions by reverting the displayed version". And again, another round of reverts ensue over whether the template should appear at all or not. All this time, the talkpages remains empty. Obviously at this stage, the template has not worked, and at least it is plain obvious to me, it is also being abused. The same scenario is repeated across subsequent disputes we have, sometimes reaching the attention of admins. And that was when folks like myself told admins that you are abusing the template not to stop edit wars, but to basically justify your version irrespective of how you claim otherwise. Pressurised, you proceeded to display the tag this time on the preferred versions of your opponents, myself incluced, but only in some cases and only after extremely heated exchanges. Some pages ended up with your prefered version, some with mine. Subsequently, you lost your patience (or got a shot of viagra), and suddenly starts reverting them to your version again (and still with the template) when you think no one else is looking. Another round of editwars breaks out over which version is to be displayed (the only edit war you bothered to admit above). And the talkpages? Still starkly empty. Has any disputed pages been resolved? No. Has any of the templates abused by you been successfully removed after a compromise has been found? Zelch. Need I say more about the feasibility of this template, and its potential for abuse? Claiming that the template should stay because it didnt work with individuals like me who "ignore it" is laughable at best.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 18:57, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
****I ''always'' display a version according to the original intents of the articles prior to the disagreements, regardless of my or anybody's preference. As for the case of the [[list of airports in the People's Republic of China|lists of airports]] and [[list of companies in the People's Republic of China|lists of companies]] in the PRC, see what [[user:Huaiwei]] and [[user:SchmuckyTheCat]] had done to enforce their point of view, although they knew it's controversial and they were igniting fire: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_companies_in_mainland_China&action=history&go=first] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=19375394&oldid=19371208] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_airports_in_mainland_China&action=history&go=first] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_airports_in_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China&diff=12205315&oldid=12204622]. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*****Your claims are getting old. It has long been proven that you did not use the template in the above manner until you faced mounting pressure, and it is equally clear that you subsequently used the "original version" excuse to legitimise your prefered display versions. I am not too sure how many actually buy your claims, but it certainly did not sound logical to [[User talk:Dmcdevit/Mediation|Dmcdevit]], for one.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 19:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
******As mentioned elsewhere, I have never used original intent as an excuse, as reflected by my edits to articles such as {{article|list of railways in China}}. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*******How is that article supposed to support your claim? "Never" is a very strong word begging for complete referencing to support it.--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 20:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''': ''See also a [[Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/Not_deleted/May_2005#Template:Twoversions|previous nomination]]''. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 18:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**Now why should I be surprised that STC is the nominator! And now we know who are the ones with foresight and who have been assuming good faith? Both virtues in themselves. :D--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 19:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''':Is there any possible way to have a list of articles previous tagged with this template, so that we can know about its usage like the [[special:whatlinkshere/template:twoversions|special:whatlinkshere]] tool? — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 18:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
::I gave you that list, are you pretending not to see it? [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review&diff=prev&oldid=26724703] I sure hope you're not pretending you can't see it, cuz you edited that very edit of mine. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review&diff=prev&oldid=26726385] [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 18:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
::*Please kindly check the time stamps [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion&diff=26726112&oldid=26724887 18:34] [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Deletion_review&diff=prev&oldid=26726385 18:38]. I requested here 4 minutes before I saw your list there. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Super Delete with scrubbing bubbles''', for the same reason as Huaiwei. Instantnood, who uses this template more than anyone else on Wikipedia, simply '''DOES NOT EVER''' discuss it, he clams up until poked, prodded and provoked. It doesn't stop his edit warring, nor does it bring him to discussion. This template is just an endrun around [[Wikipedia:Content forking|content forking]]. Furthermore David Gerard was absolutely right to go rouge and delete. You can't vote on NPOV. The very proposed policy that led to this template to be created originally was dismissed out of hand as ridiculous, the templates continued life was a loophole of TfD voting instead of real discussion. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] 18:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': [[User:SchmuckyTheCat]] had been joined force with [[user:Huaiwei]] to display their preferred versions and ignores what the template said. See also my comment [[#ignoring_the_template|above]]. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 18:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
***"Joined forces"? If there is concensus that a user is abusing the system, then obviously there will be similar efforts to mitigate it. I suppose by this comment, you are saying this template should stay because two individuals are "joining forces"?--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 19:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
****If I were the one who abused it, the two lists would not be protected by [[user:Thryduulf]] (from [[Wikipedia:requests for page protection]]) in that way. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:31, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*****He protected it on the believe that you are using the twotemplate tag in '''good faith'''. Are you able to get him to comment here that he reviewed all your edits and does not think you are abusing it?--[[User:Huaiwei|Huaiwei]] 19:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete. Do not speedy.''' per Nickptar. --[[User:Tabor|Tabor]] 18:49, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''STRONGEST POSSIBLE DELETE'''. I seldom support applications of [[WP:IAR]], but this one by David Gerard was justified. When the original TfD debate was held, this template was relatively new and seemed like a reasonable idea. Since then, its overwhelmingly counterproductive nature has been proven time and again. Rather than being used by an objective third party (who merely wishes to halt edit warring) or by an involved party who adds it to the other party's version, it typically is inserted by an edit warrior '''who also reverts to his/her version''' (either simultaneously or immediately prior). He/she then acts as though the template is backed by some sort of authority that renders the first associated version sacrosanct for the time being. And even if this template is used as intended, it actually discourages long-term resolution (by essentially creating a fork, thereby reducing the incentive to gauge consensus and/or discuss possible compromises). It also uglifies articles and drags readers into editors' disputes. This simply is a terrible template, and it mustn't be allowed to continue harming Wikipedia. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 19:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**That's exactly why I [[#guidelines_needed|suggested]] to have better guidelines and enforcement to avoid abuse. What we now have at [[Wikipedia:two versions]] is obviously not enough. There are many more templates such as {{tl|mergedisputed}}, {{tl|NPOV}}, {{tl|disputed}}, {{tl|bias}}, etc., that also drags readers into editors' disputes. Information on editors' disputes are, however, useful for readers in determining reliability of articles. Many under [[:Category:Wikipedia_maintenance#Articles in category "Wikipedia maintenance"|category:Wikipedia maintenance]] (e.g. {{tl|not verified}}, {{tl|confusing}}, {{tl|importance}}) may possibly uglify articles. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 19:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*After reading the above debate, and recalling my one interaction with this template (during the debate over the spoiler-warnign templates IIRC) I have come to the conclusion that this tempalte is ill-advised. as [[User:Lifeisunfair]] says, it sounds like a good idea. if its use could be somehow restricted to uninvolved people sincerly trying to stop edit wars, it might be a good tool in some case. it doesn't sound as if that has been the most common result. Therefore, '''delete''' this template, but do not speedy delete it. I still don't see any reason why an out-of-process undiscussed deletion was needed for thsi -- there seems no problem in getting significant numbers of people to agree to delete it at this time. [[User:DESiegel|DES]] [[User talk:DESiegel|<sup>(talk)</sup>]] 19:18, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
**Because putting it to a vote gives the impression that NPOV is up for voting - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 11:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', it makes sense to have a large number of templates for article content disputes so that the right one is available. [[User:JYolkowski|JYolkowski]] // [[User talk:JYolkowski|talk]] 22:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. Used correctly, it can reduce the damage in sterile edit wars. If someone's abusing it, [[WP:RFC|RFC him]], [[tarring and feathering|tar and feather him]], [[crushing by elephant|crush him by elephant]], whatever, but that's no reason to delete the template. Plenty of other templates get applied incorrectly too. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] [[User talk:Cryptic|(talk)]] 23:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Obviously. This template is only used to give extra credence to one side of an edit war, and tell the other side to STFU. [[User:Radiant!|R]][[User_talk:Radiant!|adiant]][[meta:mergist|_<font color="orange">>|<</font>]] 23:06, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Since I'm not an administrator, I have zero idea what this template's text was. However, based on what's been said here, I assume that it left one version as the main page and placed an alternate version on a sub page. The problem with that approach (if that is what the template does) is that it gives the version on the main page a perceived degree of superiority. If such an approach is going to work at all, it will need to place all alternate versions (while rare, I have seen three-cornered edit wars before) on sub pages and make the main page just a protected stub pointing to them. I'm not certain how feasible such an approach would be, but the concept sounds intriguing. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 23:47, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*:Assuming a Monobook skin, you'll find a "history" button atop the page. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 23:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
*:The template adds a link to the other version from the page's history. Aside from the arguably inappropriate nature of content forking, your suggestion would basically hide articles from the site's readers. That's entirely unacceptable. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 02:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*::Unacceptable maybe, but less so than a template whose only use is to legitimise one side of an edit war. No amount of "This is not an endorsement of this version" can change this. If neither side is willing to play nicely, then neither side gets their [[m:The Right Version|version]] shown in main article space. Can you say fairer than that? [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 03:33, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*:::Both options are unacceptable. I agree with your criticism of the template, but I believe that <s>your</s> Caerwine's alternative is even worse. The concept of removing an article from its correct ___location might seem like a fair way to treat the editors involved in the dispute, but it's unfair to readers (and patently unprofessional). And of course, it would impede one of the core functions of a wiki: the ability to edit pages. (Which forked version would someone edit? Neither? Both/all? The one that he/she prefers?) —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 04:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*::::Not to call into question your ability to read, but I assume when you say "my alternative" you are referring to [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]'s suggestion above? Also, your point about impeding the users' ability is moot, for obvious reasons. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 04:42, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"Not to call into question your ability to read, but I assume when you say "my alternative" you are referring to [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]]'s suggestion above?"''</font>
::::::Yes, I'm sorry about that. When I replied to Caerwine, I inadvertently copied-and-pasted your username (from the reply above mine) into the edit summary. When I actually replied to you, I was thinking that you were the same person to whom I already had replied. Additionally, I apologize for splitting your signature (also inadvertent).
::::::<font style="color:#00A650;">''"Also, your point about impeding the users' ability is moot, for obvious reasons."''</font>
::::::Those reasons are not obvious to me. Could you please elaborate? —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:59, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
:::::::Pages in such disputes are generally protected, rendering the question of which version to edit worthless. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 17:15, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
::::::::I've seen this template used on numerous unprotected pages. The fact that it can be inserted by a non-admin renders this inevitable.
::::::::Also, isn't the theoretical idea behind this template (and Caerwine's variation) to halt edit wars without the need for more drastic intervention? (If the involved parties agree to stop reverting — with or without the use of a special template — there's no need for page protection.) —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 18:30, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
:After having read the above discussion, I'll go ahead and vote '''Delete''' on this template. I still think a variant of the {Protected} template that gave direct access to the competing versions might be useful, but it's clear that the method that this template used has been tried and found wanting. [[User:Caerwine|Caerwine]] 19:21, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. No need for [[WP:IAR]] or a speedy here. The previous TfD was ages ago, the only justification I can imagine was that we weren't trusted to make the correct decision this time. - [[User:Aaron Brenneman|<font color="#2f4f4f">brenneman</font>]][[User Talk:Aaron Brenneman|<font color="#2f4f4f"><sup>(t)</sup></font>]][[Special:Contributions/Aaron Brenneman|<font color="#2f4f4f"><sup>(c)</sup></font>]] 00:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. In my experience this template is not used well. - [[User:SimonP|SimonP]] 03:40, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete. Do Not Speedy.''' This template is a bad idea (anti-NPOV at its core -- the neutrality principle needs synthesis, not forking, to succeed), and it is almost exclusively used for purposes even worse than the bad idea at its core. [[User:Xoloz|Xoloz]] 03:48, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Per Radiant and Aaron Brenneman. The various "disputed" templates are much better, and don't give any legitimacy to edit warring. [[User:Sjakkalle|Sjakkalle]] [[User talk:Sjakkalle|<small>(Check!)</small>]] 07:54, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. perfectly acceptable on a case by case basis. [[User:Zen-master|zen master]][[User talk:Zen-master| T]] 16:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
:::Fast company this template keeps: see the original use [[User:Zen-master|Zen master]] attempted to make of it over at [[Conspiracy theory]], where his personal impressions are being [[Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_Weight|undue weighted out]] by other editors (myself included). More evidence for the argument [[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] gives for a '''Delete'''? [[User:Adhib|Adhib]] 09:27, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' for discouraging consensus-building, encouraging forking, and for asking an article's reader to do the work editors are supposed to take responsibility for. [[User:Jkelly|Jkelly]] 19:16, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Strong Delete.''' This defeats the whole idea of collective editing.[[User:Cberlet|Cberlet]] 21:14, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. This template has been abused far too often to justify keeping it around. See also [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Ultramarine/Workshop]]. [[User:Kelly Martin|Kelly Martin]] ([[User talk:Kelly Martin|talk]]) 00:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' as per Carbonite, David Gerard, Jkelly, Cberlet, Kelly Martin. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 01:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' template fosters edit wars.[[User:Borisblue|Borisblue]] 01:42, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Everyone please take a look at a proposal for {twoversions} on [[Wikipedia talk:Templates for deletion|talk]], at the very least there should be a transition period, right? [[User:Zen-master|zen master]][[User talk:Zen-master| T]] 01:58, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**I don't see why - it doesn't appear to currently be in use on any actual articles. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 02:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**Apparently someone must've depopulated it. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]]
***Me - [[User:David Gerard|David Gerard]] 11:12, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I saw it used once and it really helped in forcing the people to cool down a tad. [[User:Halibutt|Halibu]][[User talk:Halibutt|tt]] 02:13, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Stronger keep than all the delete votes put togather''' <= let's see if prefixing your votes with "strong" actually works, if not, I trust we can all agree to stop doing that as a pointless redundancy. —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig}} 05:21, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
::As I assume a person of your level of experience is aware, this is ''not'' a simple majority vote count. When applied in a prudent manner, the prefixes "strong" and "weak" can assist the closing admin in gauging the nature of the consensus (or lack thereof). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 14:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''': Removes an incentive to negotiate; Confuses casual readers; Looks unprofessional. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tom_harrison Tom Harrison] <sup><font color="Green">[[User_talk:Tom harrison|(talk)]]</font></sup> 23:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I used it once successfully in the process of stabilising a particularly "difficult" article, that had been protected for several weeks, and resumed edit-warring immediately after unprotection (of course, all factions accusing each other of ''POV'', so the NPOV/POV template had no effect whatsoever) - The TwoVersions template appeared to be handy to get the discussion to the ''talk'' page (which had been unsuccessful with all other templates), and to allow time for elaborating a consensus version of the article on that talk page, which took several days with several contributors. The article in question is unprotected without major difficulties (and without any template) for several months now. As a remark I can add that there appeared to be some problem with the template ''software'' at the time, as it did not correctly link to the "other version"; don't know if that problem still exists today, but I'd rather fix that problem than delete the template. --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] 10:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
::If someone is unwilling to discuss such a dispute until a fork of his/her version has been pushed to the top or linked to via a gigantic, unprofessional banner, he/she should not be permitted to edit the article. —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 11:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Agree with David Gerard, Tom Harrison, and others. --[[User:Pjacobi|Pjacobi]] 11:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
====[[Template:DisputeCheck]]====
This seems to serve the same purpose as [[Template:Not verified]], though there's a wide variance in the alarmingness of the banner. It seems to me that these templates and their associated categories should be merged. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 04:20, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
: Honestly I like the more alrming red color better, but with the text from Not verified. I think we want to be clear as possible that an article with such a banner should not be trusted until the issues are dealt with. But, anyway, '''merge'''. -- [[User:SCZenz|SCZenz]] 08:43, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect '''to {{tl|not verified}} or {{tl|disputed}}. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 09:32, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Redirect''' to {{tl|not verified}} not {{tl|disputed}}. --[[User:Lbmixpro|LBMixPro]][[User talk:Lbmixpro|<sup><span style="text-decoration: none;">(Speak on it!)</span></sup>]] 19:41, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' --[[User:Masssiveego|Masssiveego]] 08:33, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', for reasoning similar to what I posted below regarding {{tl|cleanup-nonsense}}. My objection to this template is not that it's redundant, but that it's added to articles that users merely believe "may contain inaccuracies" (which describes '''every''' article). These massive warning templates disparage entire articles' quality in the eyes of readers, and therefore should be limited to situations in which concrete allegations (usually disputed) of major editorial problems exist. It's appropriate to request that an article "be checked for accuracy," but there's absolutely no need to compromise the appearance of a potentially accurate article by advertising this fact. The required consultation can be accomplished via talk pages, and dubious claims can be temporarily removed (pending confirmation). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 21:10, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
:*If a consensus for deletion is not reached, '''redirect''' to {{tl|not verified}}. Do not redirect to {{tl|disputed}}, which asserts the existence of a specific dispute (a condition that this template presently states might not exist). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 16:28, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==== [[Template:Cleanup-nonsense]]====
Only one article is using this rather in-your-face template. I suggest merging it into [[Template:Cleanup-rewrite]]. -- [[User:Beland|Beland]] 04:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Keep'''. This is supposed to fill in a specific niche: You come upon an article; you're not familiar with the subject area, so you have no idea whether the article is in need of [[Template:Cleanup-context]] (or some other cleanup template) or if the article is just straight [[Wikipedia:Patent nonsense|nonsense]]. I'm not surprised the template is not frequently used: its primary function is to be replaced with another template by somebody who knows more about the subject area. (I admit this could be made clearer within the template itself.) [[User:Lubaf|Thanks]], <br>[[User_talk:Lubaf|Luc "Somethingorother" French]] 05:21, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', abrasive and needlessly biting (especially since this will hit new users with unusual frequency). Also, the one article it's used on isn't even nonsense! (Although that article does lack context and could probably be deleted on that basis.) Nonsense is defined as "so completely and irredeemably confused that no intelligent person can be expected to make sense of it." How an expert could be expected to help with it, I don't know. [[User:Christopherparham|Christopher Parham]] [[User_talk:Christopherparham|(talk)]] 06:35, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' Now, no articles are using it *ahem*. [[User:Chriscf|Chris]] <small>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Chriscf&action=edit§ion=new talk back]</small> 13:52, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. If someone is unfamiliar with a subject to the extent that he/she is unable to differentiate between patent nonsense and a legitimate article in need of cleanup, he/she is in no position to declare that the "article appears to be nonsensical" (thereby accusing its author of vandalism). The template's creator stated above that it serves as a means of consulting "somebody who knows more about the subject area," but this can be accomplished with far greater efficiency via other means. (Leave a note on the talk page of a user who has made substantial edits to a related article.) When in doubt, it's important to [[Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]. The insertion of this template marks the assumption of bad faith (placing the onus on a third party — not even the article's author — to counter a potentially false allegation of wrongdoing). —[[User:Lifeisunfair|Lifeisunfair]] 01:34, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
* '''Delete''', --[[User:Masssiveego|Masssiveego]] 08:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' Many times I have encountered work that could have used this template. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 15:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
==Holding cell==
:Move templates to the appropriate subsection '''here''' to prepare to delete '''if''' process guidelines are met. Anything listed here or below should have its discussion moved to [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log]].
===To orphan===
:''These templates need to be deleted, but may still be in use on some pages. Somebody (it doesn't need to be an admin, anyone can do it) should fix and/or remove significant usages from pages so that they can be deleted. Note that simple references to them from Talk: pages need not (and in fact should not) be removed.''
*[[Template: WorldTagTeamChampions]], to be orphaned and deleted. See [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted/October 2005#Template: WorldTagTeamChampions|discussion]]. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 23:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
*[[Template:MobilePhoneNetworks]] to be orphaned (is already a list) and deleted. See [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted/October 2005#Template:MobilePhoneNetworks|discussion]]. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 20:40, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
**Any place for the multiregional ones? — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 21:01, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
***Hmmm? I'm not sure what you mean. If it helps, the list is [[List of mobile network operators]] — your question sounds like it wants to be on that talk page. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 00:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
****There were calls to keep a template for the multiregional operaters, in addition to those for different regions. — [[User:Instantnood|Insta]][[User_talk:Instantnood|ntnood]] 10:49, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
*****Oh, I see what you mean. I figure those regional templates can be created by anyone with the time: the list article should have all the info needed. Or, I can postpone deleting it until you've made them.... But the existing regional ones (Canada and the US, apparently) weren't part of the TfD nomination, so aren't going to be deleted as part of it. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small><sup>[[User talk:Splash|talk]]</sup></small> 15:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
===To convert to category===
:''Templates for which the consensus is that they ought to be converted to categories get put here until the conversion is completed.''
===Ready to delete===
:''Templates for which consensus to delete has been reached, have been orphaned, and the discussion logged to [[Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/Deleted]], can be listed here for an admin to delete. Remove from this list when link indicates the page no longer exists. If these are to be [[WP:CSD|candidates for speedy deletion]], please give a specific reason.''
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[[Category:Wikipedia deletion|Templates for deletion]]
[[Category:Wikipedia templates]]
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