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[[image:Koresh.jpg|right|framed|David Koresh]]
===[[Trolltalk]]===
'''David Koresh''', born '''Vernon Wayne Howell''' ([[August 17]], [[1959]] - [[April 19]], [[1993]]) was a self-proclaimed head of the [[Branch Davidians]] from [[1988]] until a raid by the [[Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms]] (now [[BATFE]]) and subsequent [[siege]] by the [[Federal Bureau of Investigation]] ended with the burning of Branch Davidian ranch, the Mount Carmel Center.
==Early life==
'''This is the second VfD for this article, first was 27 April 2004 - 3 May 2004, effort to delete failed. See [[Talk:Trolltalk]]'''
Vernon Wayne Howell was born on [[August 17]], [[1959]] in [[Houston]], [[Texas]] to a 15-year old single mother. He never knew his father and was raised by his grandparents. Koresh described his early childhood as lonely, saying that the other kids teased him and called him "Vernie". As a young boy, he was abused by his stepfather. A poor student because of [[dyslexia]], Vernon dropped out of [[high school]]. By 18, he was working as a [[carpenter]].
When he was 20, Howell joined his mother's church, the [[Seventh-day Adventist Church]]. He fell in love with a 15-year-old girl, who became [[pregnant]], but marriage was forbidden by the girl's father and church elders. Vernon began to challenge the elders on many points of scripture and was expelled for being a bad influence on young people.
"since the community is rather small and users rarely get mod points. Also, Slashdot's editors don't pay much attention to what goes on in 20721." -- Then why should an encylopedia? '''Delete''' [[User:Afcassidy|Afcassidy]] 12:48, 17 June 2005
*'''Comment''' This is the second attempt by Afcassidy to delete this article. I suggest that he has a bias in this regard and his integrity and motives should be questioned and taken into account before you vote.
*'''Keep'''. Trolltalk is rather known throughout the Slashdot community. Slashdot editors don't pay attention to anything, as any regular will tell you, by the number of duplicate stories and the occasional brokenness of the website, like the search feature. -- [[User:Claviola|claviola]] [[User_talk:Claviola|(talk to me)]] 21:20, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::Other more influential and important online forums have had their articles deleted. TrollTalk is not noteworthy enough based on those standards. [[User:Afcassidy|Afcassidy]] 2:55, 18 June 2005
*'''Keep''', the trolltalk sid: a) is the oldest continuously used thread on Slashdot, b) has the highest post count of any thread on slashdot, despite regular purges, c) if it wasn't purged its post count would be astronomical, six figures or more, d) is the only "hidden", user-created thread left on slashdot, and as such is a historical curiousity if nothing else. Notable. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 15:16, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Shortly thereafter, he went to [[Hollywood]] hoping to become a [[rock and roll]] guitarist; however, nothing came of this. In [[1981]] he moved to [[Waco, Texas]] where he joined the Branch Davidians, a religious sect which had split from the Seventh-day Adventists. They had established their headquarters at a ranch about 10 miles out of Waco, which they called the Mount Carmel Center (after the Biblical [[Mount Carmel|Mount Carmel, Israel]]), in [[1955]].
*'''Delete''', nn. --[[User:Weyes|W]]([[User talk:Weyes|t]]) 07:26, 2005 Jun 19 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. -[[User:Gtrmp|Sean Curtin]] 07:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. --[[User:Pile0nades|pile0nades]]<sup>[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Pile0nades Talk] | [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&target=Pile0nades Contrib]</sup> 08:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', obviously. [[User:Starblind|Andrew Lenahan - <FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT>]] 10:57, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. You have got to be kidding me. Someone goes to the trouble of creating an free encyclopedia and some clowns just see it as an opportunity to go around telling peope that their interests are not not notable. All this information on things I don't care about is driving me crazy! I must delete it! I'm not trying to troll here, but good lord. What is wrong with you people? Addendum 17:46, Jun19, 2005: I am not a sock puppit. I am a slashdot user (http://slashdot.org/~bit%20trollent) with a normal if occasionally trollish posting history. I am not, nor is trolltalk affiliated with the GNAA. Get over yourselves. --[[User:bit trollent|bit trollent]] 17:14, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''' -- this vote was cast shortly after a "call to arms" was posted in the Trolltalk forum (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=20721&cid=12856190) asking for help to derail the VfD - you can expect many sock-puppet accounts to be created over the new few days for purposes of voting "keep" on this article. Trolltalk is affiliated with the [[Gay Nigger Association of America|GNAA]], which has used sock-puppets, spamming, and intimidation to survive four votes for deletion, bragging about "defeating Wikipedia" (http://www.gnaa.us/pr.phtml?troll=gnaa-wikipedia) after each one.
***'''Comment''' -- There is no established connection between the GNAA and Trolltalk. I urge whoever posted this to keep arguments for deciding the fate of this article based in fact and reality and not about some mindless vendetta against the GNAA. Attempting to invoke the name of this troll group in an attempt at using the emotions of other Wikipedia readers against this article is not only unprofessional, it is out of line and clearly juvenile.
****'''Comment''' -- The close affiliation between Trolltalk and the GNAA is obvious to anyone who is familiar with either of them and can be easily proven by searching the Trolltalk Archive for GNAA and taking a look at some of the results. Although the archives don't go back this far, many will recall that the GNAA was born on Trolltalk, and even though they now have off-site forums most Trolltalk people are still GNAA.
*****'''Comment''' -- Can you provide proof that most "Trolltalk people" are GNAA? If not, I suggest you attempt to keep your comments to facts next time, please. This is a serious matter and it's not right for you to lie in an attempt to keep your POV the dominate one.
*'''Delete.''' If sock puppets want to keep it, then it should go. [[User:P Ingerson|<nowiki></nowiki>]] — [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:P Ingerson|<small>(talk)</small>]] 15:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''—I've seen articles ten times more notable than this silliness that have been deleted. We need to stop having one standard for internet trivia and another standard for everything else. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 15:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' nn. — [[User:Mark Dingemanse|mark]] [[User Talk:Mark Dingemanse|✎]] 15:53, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Del...''' I mean, '''keep''', or er, '''comment''', I guess, since I'm inevitably going to be accused to be a GNAA sock-puppet. I think you're all a bunch of retards. All of you who take this internet crap seriously. Honestly, what the hell? Go out to a club, get some woman drunk and have sex already. Trust me, you'll feel much better after you dip your shlong into a female creature for the first time, and suddenly, you won't care anymore if there's an article about trolltalk on your crappy internet encyclopaedia (which I've subtly vandalized in several ways btw, just for fun). Uh oh, but what have I just done? This comment is against wikipedia guidelines! Quick, someone nominate it on Comments for Deletion! Hahaha. Jesus. -- Who The Fuck Cares 00:01, 1 Jan 1970
**'''Comment''' -- votes from anonymous users are not counted, also, everyone should be made aware that the term "female creature" is taken directly from the movie with a very offensive title (which I won't repeat here) which the GNAA is based around. The heroes of that movie have never encountered women before, and when one of them does encounter one, they all make a big show out of shouting "female creatures!" in shock and alarm.
**'''Comment''' -- Why should we be aware of that? I can't see why anyone should care. [[User:MrVacBob|MrVacBob]] 17:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
***'''Comment''' -- It is evidence that Trolltalk is part of (or at least strongly aligned with) the GNAA, a group that has abused Wikipedia quite extensively and gone to great measures to keep its vanity articles up and that has publically announced itself as an enemy of Wikipedia.
****'''Comment''' -- There is no evidence that trolltalk has anything to do with GNAA, other than the fact that they both troll slashdot. By all accounts GNAA hardly uses trolltalk at all, other than crapflooding it when a GNAA member is insulted. Stop with the paranoid generalizations. --[[User:Bk0|Bk0]] 20:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*****'''Comment''' -- <i>Trolltalk/GNAA connection</i>. Please review [http://trolltalk.111mb.com/search.php?query=GNAA these two-thousand three-hundred sixty-eight comments] and let me know what conclusions you draw from them.
******'''Comment''' A counterexample to invalidate your point: the KKK talks chiefly about blacks, but they aren't affiliated with them. Thanks for playing though.
******'''Comment''' -- Congratulations on demonstrating that GNAA members post on trolltalk. It is a PUBLIC forum, genius. Anybody can post there. By your logic, the dozens of forums that have been vandalized by the GNAA are also affiliated with the GNAA. Search slashdot for GNAA and you will find similar results. But that's not what this is really about is it? You people have a vendetta against trolls. Stop deleting perfectly accurate, valid and valuble information just because you hate trolls.
*'''Keep'''. [[User:Abortion]] 19 June 2005 [[Trolltalk]] is an informative article and not a troll. Why then, should it be deleted?
**'''Comment''' -- New user, probable sock puppet.
*'''Keep''' I don't see any reason for it to not be there. [[User:MrVacBob|MrVacBob]] 17:18, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*<strike>'''Keep''' In retrospect, I believe that the trolltalk article should be kept. I'm sorry for any confusion this may have caused. [[User:Afcassidy|Afcassidy]] 12:48, 17 June 2005</strike>
**'''WARNING''' -- This is a fake vote not cast by Afcassidy but by the anonymous vandal 66.82.9.80 who has vandalized this page several times. Please check all votes carefully to make sure they were actually added by the person "signing" them and not forged by the anonymous vandal, who will probably continue this foolishness. [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/Trolltalk&diff=15450602&oldid=15450433 Proof of vandalism.]
==Ascent to leadership of the Branch Davidians==
*'''Keep''' it real now y'all
Howell allegedly had an affair with [[Lois Roden]], the alleged prophetess and leader of the sect who was then in her late sixties. This included a trip the two took to [[Israel]]. In [[1983]], Roden allowed Howell to begin teaching his own message which caused controversy in the group. When Roden died in [[1986]], a power struggle ensued between Howell and Roden's son, George, with the majority of the group uniting behind George Roden, who forced Howell and his group off the property.
**Vote by anon user [[66.82.9.80]] [[User:Celestianpower|Celestianpower]] 17:41, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Keep'''. No reason whatsoever for it to be deleted. (See comments below) [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 17:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Late in [[1987]], Howell returned to Mount Carmel in camouflage, with seven of his male followers, armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic assault rifles, two .22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns and nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. In the ensuing gunfight, George Roden was wounded in the chest and hands, and took cover behind a tree. As a result of the incident, Howell and his followers were charged with attempted murder. At the trial, Howell testified that he went to Mount Carmel to uncover evidence of corpse abuse by George Roden. Howell testified further that they had come armed because George Roden had expelled him from Mount Carmel at gunpoint, and claimed that his shots had been aimed at a tree. Howell's followers were acquitted, and in Howell's case a mistrial was declared. Roden was later committed to a mental institution in an unrelated murder conviction, leaving Howell free to assume leadership of the Branch Davidians at Mount Carmel.
*'''Keep''' [[Image:Australia flag large.png|15px]] [[User:Cyberjunkie|<font color="green"><b>Cyberjunkie</b></font>]] [[User talk:Cyberjunkie|<sup><b style="font-size:74%;"><font color="gold">TALK</font></sup>]] 18:26, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. [[User:Silsor|silsor]] 19:48, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
In [[1990]] Vernon Howell legally changed his name to David Koresh. In the documentation involved, Howell stated that the change was for "publicity and business purposes." The switch arose from his belief that he was now head of the biblical house of [[David]], from which Judeo-Christian tradition maintains the Messiah will come. The name ''Koresh'' is a transliteration of the Hebrew name of [[Cyrus II of Persia|Cyrus]] the [[Iran|Persian king]] who allowed the Jews who had been [[diaspora|dispersed]] throughout [[Babylonia]] by [[Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon|Nebuchadnezzar]] to return to their homelands. Both David and Cyrus (Koresh) are referred to as Messiah (lit. anointed one) in the Hebrew Bible (David on several occasions, Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), thus the names Vernon Howell chose evidenced his belief that he was the Messiah, a belief that stemmed from a vision he claimed to have received from God in [[1985]] during his trip to Israel.
*'''Delete''', trollcruft, sockpuppet limit has been exceeded. [[User:RickK|Rick]][[User talk:RickK|K]] 20:45, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
** Oh come on, what is it with you people?? The [[slashdot trolling phenomenon]] and associated articles make for some of the best, most entertaining/informative reading on Wikipedia. The [[trolltalk]] entry is part of that. Why all this deletionist mania?? What's to be gained by eliminating good articles just because some people you dislike have contributed to them? [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 21:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Koresh openly advocated [[polygamy]] for himself and select others in the group, and asserted himself married to several female residents of the small community, and there were allegations of [[child abuse]] occurring at Mount Carmel.
***'''Comment''': This is an encyclopedia, a forum for truth and accuracy. These "troll groups" support the very opposite of truth and accuracy. I am not aware of any encyclopedia of any merit that suspends integrity and allows the publication of lies, nonsense, vindictiveness, and fluff, just because those things can be "funny". The fact that something is "all in good fun" (a matter of opinion) does not excuse any indiscretion and make it automatically acceptable for every venue. There are many appropriate places for anarchistic comedy but a serious and fact-based encyclopedia is not one of them.
****'''Comment''': If you want an encyclopedia to be a "forum for truth and accuracy," you really should prevent people from anonymously making edits to it. Also, as I am sure you're aware, because of this open nature (not preventing anonymous edits to articles), Wikipedia is considered a bit of a joke when it comes to content that encyclopedias are traditionally consulted for. This is simply an attempt by whoever started this VfD to stifle and suppress a certain demographic. If we only have articles about Slashdot, CmdrTaco and the editors et al., we're showing a certain amount of bias toward that side of site. Like it or not, Trolling is definitely a huge part of the Slashdot culture.
Some former members of the cult accused (and still accuse) Koresh of declaring they owed him 140 wives, and felt he could claim any of the females in the compound as his. Evidently he fathered at least a dozen children by the harem. Some of these mothers were as young as 12 and 13 years old.
*** With all due respect, you are absolutely missing the point and also, I think, compromising Wikipedia's mission. Of course we do not want Wikipedia to include "lies, nonsense, vindictiveness, and fluff". If the [[trolltalk]] entry contained LNVF I would support its deletion. But it most certainly does not. The article is NOT itself a troll. Rather, it ''describes'' the activities of trolls. This is a crucial difference, and, honestly, it shouldn't be too difficult to grasp. It's the same difference between an article on [[al Qaeda]], and a piece of al Qaeda propoganda. Wikipedia would obviously include the former, but exclude the latter. Would you argue for deleting the al Qaeda entry because "Wikipedia is not here to wage jihad"?? [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 21:23, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**While I think this article should go, I believe judging the merit of an article by whether or not sockpuppets vote to keep it is absurd, and such votes should not count. [[User:Everyking|Everyking]] 21:12, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Including one by Kiri Jewell.
***If an article's support comes almost entirely from sockpuppets, that's strong evidence that it's nothing by a vanity article created & maintained by the very people the article is about. Vanity articles can sometimes be hard to identify but the character & identities of the persons editing/supporting them can help to determine if an article's only purpose is self-promotion.
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/renoopeningst.html]
***Yes. It might sound absurd in theory, but in practice any article that deserves to be kept on merit, won't attract sockpuppets because it doesn't need them. Only articles that "should go" will atrract socks supporting them, because they're the only ones that need them. It's a useful rule of thumb. [[User:P Ingerson|<nowiki></nowiki>]] — [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:P Ingerson|<small>(talk)</small>]] 21:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
***I think that's a crap rule of thumb. With that as our standard, we would delete every article related to Islam, the Holocaust, Ukraine, Sino-Japanese relations, and god knows what else. [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 21:28, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
==The raid & siege==
***Good point, but how often do serious articles about Islam, Sino-Japanese relations, etc. get nominated for VfD in the first place? And when they do, it's usually socks wanting them deleted for not supporting their POV. And then the corollary applies: If the sockpuppets want to ''delete'' an article, it deserves to be kept. [[User:P Ingerson|<nowiki></nowiki>]] — [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:P Ingerson|<small>(talk)</small>]] 21:58, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
***Oh, I didn't realize the rule of thumb only applied when an article was already up for deletion. I thought it was a general way of determining which articles (in VfD stage or not) were worthy of deletion. Okay, so even in this more tightly circumscribed form, and even when we invoke the corollary you describe (in which sockpuppets are voting for deletion, thereby guiding us to "keep") we must still recognize the mutliple exceptions to both the corollary and the proper rule. For example, some articles go to VfD ([[new anti-semitism]], for example) and have POV pushers and sockpuppets aplenty on both sides. In these cases we must invoke an exception to the corollary of the circumscribed form of the rule. It is at this point that I think we should realize that we're better off trashing the rule altogether, and voting not based on a dubious rule-of-thumb regarding how other votes have been placed, but rather ''according to the merits of the article''. [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 23:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
''For a more complete description of the circumstances surrounding the raid on and siege of Mount Carmel see the [[Branch Davidian]] article. This article is concerned solely with the last days and demise of Koresh.''
***But this ''isn't'' a hypothetical situation with "POV pushers and sockpuppets aplenty on both sides". Is it? [[User:P Ingerson|<nowiki></nowiki>]] — [[User:P Ingerson|P Ingerson]] [[User talk:P Ingerson|<small>(talk)</small>]] 23:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' Oops, sorry. My penis isn't small enough to contribute to this discussion. I should like to point out however that you are all being trolled by the nominator, who also posted the comment on trolltalk about this vfd, keeps vandalising this page through anon proxies and vehemently replies to all keep votes with his typical "blah blah wikipedia is what I think it should be" bullshit. GJ.
On Sunday morning, [[February 28]], [[1993]], the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) raided Mount Carmel. The raid resulted in the deaths of 4 agents and 5 Davidians. Shortly after the initial raid, the [[FBI]] took command of the scene and contact was established with Koresh inside the compound. Communication over the next 51 days included telephone contacts with various FBI negotiators.
:''Unsigned comment from {{user|206.51.237.44}}, the fourth edit from that IP address.''
*'''Delete''', non-notable forum. [[User:Martg76|Martg76]] 21:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
As the standoff continued, Koresh, seriously injured by a gunshot to his side, and his closest male leaders negotiated delays, possibly so he could write religious documents he said he needed to complete before he surrendered. His conversations, dense with biblical imagery, alienated the federal negotiators who treated the situation as a hostage crisis, despite a two hour video tape sent out by the Davidians with some of the children, in which the adults and older children/teens appeared to explain clearly and confidently why they chose of their own free will to remain with David.
*'''Keep''', well-known and verifiable trolling phenomenon. [[User:Rhobite|Rhobite]] 21:40, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' IMO, NN --[[User:JiFish|JiFish]]([[User_talk:JiFish|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/JiFish|Contrib]]) 21:50, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The 51-day siege of Mount Carmel ended when U.S Attorney General [[Janet Reno]] approved recommendations of veteran FBI officials to proceed with a final assault in which the Branch Davidians were to be removed from their compound by force. In the course of the assault, the compound caught fire. The cause of the fire was later determined by The Danforth Report, which was commissioned by The Special Counsel, to be the deliberate actions of some of the Davidians inside the compound. However this theory is disputed both by independent media and others.
*'''Comment''' Congratz to whoever just deleted a string of legitimate comments, both Keep and Delete. Here was mine: Obviously no one who believes in Wikipedia believes, as Paul M claims to, that Wikipedia should include articles on anything and everything. But it really is starting to feel like Wikipedia is being taken over by people who think the project should only include articles on topics like [[Frederick the Great]] and [[China]] and [[Atomic theory]], because these are the types of articles contained in dinosaur, Gutenberg, pre-internet encyclopedias like Brittanica. Like the hidebound architects in Ayn Rand stories who use fabulous new materials in the same tired way they used older, weaker materials. Grow an imagination, you deletionist fanatics!! [[User:Babajobu|Babajobu]] 21:56, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Comment''', My ISP, Comcast has a dynamic IP system. Just because we share the same IP doesn't mean we are the same person. Wikipedia is pretty popular you know. You've grown so paranoid with vandalism you've lost your ways Wikipedia. Anyway my comment was not to keep everything. But to keep things that are useful. And indeed trolltalk is a useful article that contains information on a well-known subculture. Also I'd like to add I'm a long time slashdot user (http://slashdot.org/~Stalyn) - Paul M.
Barricaded into their building, 85 Branch Davidians, including Koresh, were either unable or unwilling to escape the blaze and died. Seventeen of these victims were children under the age of 12.
*Not notable. Wikipedia is not a Slashdot encyclopedia. May deserve a brief mention at [[Slashdot]]. <b>Delete</b> or <b>redirect</b> (and possibly merge). - [[User:Mike Rosoft|Mike Rosoft]] 23:37, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
**'''Comment''': Wikipedia <b>is</b> an encyclopedia, however, and being such it should contain articles on a wide variety of topics. Again, by deleting this, Wikipedia shows a bias toward the editors and "group think" mentality of Slashdot. While a large amount of Trolls have a destructive nature, many posters on Slashdot are classified as Trolls simply because they do not agree with the standard line of thinking agreed with by many of its regulars. Trolling is and shall most likely always be a large portion of the Slashdot culture, and deleting this article harms the impartiality of Wikipedia and punishes many because of the actions of a few.
==References==
*'''Merge and redirect''' with the main Slashdot article. [[User:Cleduc|Cleduc]] 00:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/davidkoresh.html Biography: David Koresh] from [http://www.pbs.org/ PBS]
*'''Delete''', sockpuppet magnet. [[User:Capitalistroadster|Capitalistroadster]] 01:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' not notable, or merge in [[Slashdot]]. [[User:TUF-KAT|Tuf-Kat]] 01:52, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
*[http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/cult/david-koresh/ David Koresh] from [http://www.rotten.com/ rotten.com]
*'''Delete''' non notable forum. [[User:JamesBurns|JamesBurns]] 06:36, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', please do not feed the trolls. —[[User:Stormie|Stormie]] 09:21, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
==External links==
*'''Delete''', sockpuppetry [[User:Proto|Proto]] 10:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*[http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html Crime Library Article Focusing On Raid & Siege.]
*'''Keep'''. Notable part of internet/slashdot culture. Useful article, informative. --[[User:Timecop|Timecop]] 11:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', more notable articles have faced deletion than this thing. let it go. 12:18, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
*[http://www.rickross.com/groups/waco.html Rick Ross Institute Collection Of Articles]
**You say that like it's a good thing. Stop deleting notable articles. You do not own wikipedia, and are yourselves neither notable, nor especially good judges of notability.
***You know that for sure? If sounds a lot like a [[WP:NPA|Personal Attack]] on a lot of these voters to me. --[[User:JiFish|JiFish]]([[User_talk:JiFish|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/JiFish|Contrib]]) 12:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
* [http://start.at/mtcarmel Official Branch Davidian Web Site]
****These are the same people who call non-sockpuppets sockpuppets. I voted to keep and was instantly mis-identified as a sock puppet by one of these crack investigators. Many voters seem to not have even read the trolltalk entry. They make false accusations about GNAA association, and persue vendettas against trolls in general which clouds this vote. Their judgement deeserves to be questioned.
****(Unsigned Post by Bit trollent)
* [http://www.hardylaw.net/waco.html David Hardy's Waco/FOIA Research]
*****'''Comment''' Until this vendetta against trolls ends and Wikipedia regains their impartial nature, this site will continue to be considered a joke in the vast sea of reference material available on the Internet. For Wikipedia to gain notoriety, these vendettas have to end.
*****To quote [[WP:NPA]] "There is no excuse for personal attacks on other contributors. Do not make them." So frankly, that doesn't matter. There is never an excuse. Besides, if you are not a sockpuppet, your contributions prove you are a [[WP:SOCK#.22Meatpuppets.22|Meatpuppet]]. --[[User:JiFish|JiFish]]([[User_talk:JiFish|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/JiFish|Contrib]]) 13:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:1959 births|Koresh, David]]
******Meatpuppet?! You have just made a personal attack! Rather than respond to what you said, I will just express my outrage at your personal attack. Do not do it! Do not read it! Delete it! --[[User:bit trollent|bit trollent]]
[[Category:1994 deaths|Koresh, David]]
*******"Meatpuppet" is an accepted term in a Wikipedia policy. ([[WP:SOCK]]) If you object to it, I suggest you either try to change Wikipedia's Sock Puppet policy or else make some serious contributions. --[[User:JiFish|JiFish]]([[User_talk:JiFish|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/JiFish|Contrib]]) 14:45, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Houstonians|Koresh, David]]
[[category:Charismatic religious leaders|Koresh, David]]
[[es:David Koresh]]
[[no:David Koresh]]
[[sv:David Koresh]]
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