Hercynian Forest and Talk:Sayako Kuroda: Difference between pages

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Revision as of 04:02, 18 November 2005

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I have understood that ''nori no miya sayako naishinnō denka'''s translation would be: Sayako, female prince (=princess) suo jure of princedom Nori. (As far as anything can be translated fully.) Am I correct in trusting that the abovesaid Japanese wording is in use of her in Japan? (or, why is it mentioned in the text??)<br>Based on this, my proposition for her article heading is [[Sayako, Princess Nori]] [[User:217.140.193.123|217.140.193.123]] 9 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)

The '''Hercynian Forest''' was an ancient and dense forest that stretched eastward from the [[Rhine River]]. The ancient sources are equivocal about how far east. All agree that the [[Black Forest]] formed the western side of the Hercynian.

== Birth rate nonsense ==

==Ancient References==

The name is cited dozens of times in several classical authors, but most of the references are non-definitive, as the author is assuming the reader would know where the forest is. The earliest is in [[Aristotle]] ([[Meteorology (Aristotle)|Meteorologica]]), who refers to the '''Arkunia ore''' (Hercynian mountains) of Europe, but tells us only that rivers flow north from there.

"Sayako has quit her job as an ornithologist in order to focus on her family life and potential motherhood, a decision commonly encouraged in Japanese society due to its falling birth rate." Due to its falling birth rate?? Tradtional values maybe. If this is an official statement from Kuroda or the Imperial family please say so. Otherwise, get rid of "due to its falling birth rate".

During the time of [[Julius Caesar]], this forest blocked the advance of the [[Roman legion]]s into [[Germany]]. His few statements are the most definitive. In [[De Bello Gallico]] (Book 6, Chapters 24 and 25), He says that the forest stretches along the Danube from the [[Helvetii]] ([[Switzerland]]) to [[Dacia]] ([[Romania]]. Its implied northern dimension is 9 days march. Its eastern dimension is indefinitely more than 60 days march. The concept fascinated and perhaps frightened him a little. He entertains old wives tales, that there are unicorns in the endless forests of Germany. The Romans may have drawn that conclusion from the horns of narwhales used by the Germans. Very likely, today's concept of an endless Black Forest (which is far from reality) descends from Caesar. His name is the one most used: '''Hercynia Silva'''.

: Well Japan's shrinking population is a fact, and the idea that Japanese women are encouraged to forgoe professional careers in favour of motherhood is not total conjecture either. This was the article that motivated me to add that, just to be clear: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1115/p06s01-woap.html --[[User:Clngre|Clngre]] 16:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Pliny the Elder]] in [[Natural History]] (the paradigm for all subsequent natural histories), which also includes geography, places the eastern regions of the '''Hercynium jugum''' in [[Pannonia]] ([[Hungary]]) and Dacia (Book 4 Chapter 25). He also gives us some insight into its composition. It contains gigantic oaks, he says (Book 16 Chapter 2). But even he is subject to the mythological aura exuding from the gloomy forest. He makes mention of unusual birds, which have feathers that "shine like fires at night". Medieval bestiaries named these birds the ''Ercinee''. [[Edward Gibbon|Gibbon]] noted the presence of [[reindeer]], [[elk]], and wild [[bull]] in the Hercynian.

:: Speaking as someone who's studied Japanese in Japan, that claim is not total nonsense, but it does not belong in this encyclopedic article. In particular, it oversimplifies Japanese culture. So, I have removed it. --[[User:LostLeviathan|LostLeviathan]] 18:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The wild bull was a very real animal in the Hercynian Forest: the [[aurochs]], bos primigenius, which they called the urus and ureox. We know also that the [[brown bear]] was there. With animals such as those likely to pop out at you from behind the huge trees, not to mention the wild [[Suevi]], it is no wonder that the forest generated such awe in the superstitious Roman soldiers. Caesar had to be constantly reassuring them.

::: Ok, good point, I agree. --[[User:Clngre|Clngre]] 18:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The aurochs since then has become extinct. It has, however, been genetically reconstituted in the forests of northeast Poland and Belarus. As far as we know, these forests were not continuous with the Hercynian, as the flatlands of [[Poland]] intervene.

== "left the Imperial Family" ==

In the Roman sources, the Hercynian Forest was clearly part of ancient Germany. We do find an indication that this circumstance was fairly recent; that is, [[Posidonius]] states that the [[Boii]], who were [[Celtic]], were once there (as well as in [[Bohemia]]). In fact Hercynian has a Celtic derivation.

What does it mean that she "left the Imperial Family"? -[[User:130.232.65.174|130.232.65.174]] 16:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

==Etymology==

[[Julius Pokorny]] lists Hercynian as being derived from *perkwu-, "oak", where -kwu- represents Pokorny's labio-velar. He further identifies the name as Celtic. But whence the H-? Celtic forms ought to lose an initial Indoeuropean *p-, and the corresponding Germanic forms have an f- by [[Grimm's Law]]: English fir, Gothic fairguni ("mountain"). Pokorny therefore hypothesizes a development from the assimilated Indoeuropean form, *kwerkwu- (Latin quercus), as in the Spanish Celtic people name, Querquerni. Germanic speakers would have made an h- of the *kw-. Hercynia would thus be a Germanicised Celtic word, testifying to the former dominance of the Celts along the Danube.

:Because she married a commoner, she is no longer in the line of succession. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 17:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

It is possible that the name of the [[Harz Mountains]] is derived from Hercynian, as Harz is a [[Middle High German]] word meaning "mountain forest."

:It means that she must forfeit her royal title, forfeit her right to a royal allowance, and leave the royal palace. At this time, women are not permitted to assume the royal throne in Japan and therefore she was never in the line of succession.

==See also==

* [[Białowieża Forest]]

Is she still allowed contact with the Imperial Family, and perhaps attending the occasional Imperial event? --[[User:Madchester|Madchester]] 18:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

{{Germany-stub}}

:As far as I know, she will not "openly" contact the Imperial Family but occasionally may attend events when invited. This contact issue is a result of the current constitution that basically forbids the Imperial Family from taking a political position. Suppose her husband (or herself) runs for a seat in congress (unlikely but possible) and reveals his political view a day (or week, month, year, decade, even century) after she met with the Imperial Family. It will be impossible to argue that there was no discussion of politics. Japanese will then be inclined to support his view out of respect for the Imperial Family (compare with how a Catholic in general would support Pope's view) and arguing against would be impossibly hard. Anyway, except for occasional events when a chance encounter is possible, she will not have contact that we will know of. -- [[User:Revth|Revth]] 03:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Category:Forests]]

[[Category:Germany]]

Hm. If she has a son, will he be considered outside the royal line of succession? --[[User:Brasswatchman|Brasswatchman]] 21:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

:Yes, current laws will keep anyone who does not retain the title to be outside succession. -- [[User:Revth|Revth]] 03:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

== "the Imperial Family" ==

Was she to marry within the Imperial Family, or is there more than one Imperial Family in Japan? This does not seem fair to me. We all are people of God, what right is it that some demand to be imperial to others. Like bush.

Is she still allowed to go to family functions and holidays? I guess some people (her husband) are not allowed to move up in the world.

:And of course someone has to pull the "People of God" crap. She probably left on her own accord, seeing as how the article doesn't mention any hoopla being thrown by her family. I think they normally marry members of government, diplomats or people higher on the social ladder.--[[User:Kross|Kross]] | [[User talk:Kross|Talk]] 18:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

:One other possibility that occured to me reading this article: is it possible that this is just the way that the Imperial Family works? That daughters are considered to "marry out" of the household, while sons stay in the same household? That would fit with what I know of some traditional Asian cultures. I would appreciate it if someone who knew more about traditional Japanese culture would weigh in. --[[User:Brasswatchman|Brasswatchman]] 21:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

::You're right, according to [[Japanese_Imperial_Family#Living_former_members_of_the_imperial_family|this]], they lose their titles as soon as they get hitched.--[[User:Kross|Kross]] | [[User talk:Kross|Talk]] 22:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

:.........I smell a Disney movie plot. All it needs is a talking animal played by a black comedian and it'll be perfect. [[User:Keaton|Keaton]] | [[User talk: Keaton|Keaton]] 7:32PM 11/15/05

::So true, Keaton, so true... LOL! [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 09:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

==So it's because he's a commoner or not?==

The sentence "These changes in her status are demanded by a 1947 law that requires female members of the Imperial Family to relinquish their birth position, official membership in the royal family, and allowance upon their marriage." makes it sound like '''any''' marriage would mean that the women would have to leave the Imperial Family. So just to make sure I understand this, is it because she married a "commoner" or is it because she simply married anyone that she has to leave the Family? [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 09:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The 1947 Imperial Household Law states that if a female member of the imperial family (a naishinnō or an nyoō) marries anyone other than the emperor or another male member of the imperial family, she will automatically lose her status as a member of the imperial family. The issue of princess marrying within the imperial family has not arisen since the 1947 law went into effect because the membership of the imperial family was effectively limited to the male line descendants of Emperor Taishō. Only two of that emperor's four sons, Emperor Shōwa and Prince Mikasa, had children and grandchildren. There simply is no pool of potential husbands among the current imperial family members (22 people).

Chapter III, Article 14 of the 1947 Constitution of Japan states, "Peers and peerage shall not be recognized." There are only two classes of Japanese recognized by this constitution: (1) the members of the imperial family, and (2) all other Japanese citizens. Therefore, even the descendants of the Meiji era kazuko (peerage) and the miyake (imperial collateral lines) are legally commoners. [[User: Jeff]] 07:25, 16 November 2005

:So wouldn't it be rather incestuous for her to marry one of the Imperial Family? [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 20:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

::The imperial family is huge. All royal families have long traditions of marrying distant (and not-so-distant) cousins. When you have a single imperial family tree that has lasted for two millennia, you have a lot of branches. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 21:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

:::Okay, one of you says that the Imp. Fam. is 22 members strong, the other says it's "huge" with lots of branches. I'm still confused.... [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 19:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

::::Maybe I'm wrong. Shrug. Ask them. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 20:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

:::::Golbez, the Japanese Royal Family ''did'' have collateral branches. If you'd read Jeff's earlier post, you'd know that these lines lost their royal status after 1947, as well as the former peerage (nobles like dukes, counts, barons, etc.). A woman traditionally takes the status of her husband upon marriage, which would mean that an Imperial princess must marry of equal rank to keep her title.

:::::Unless she marries into one of the other royal families of East Asia, which would require adopting a whole new culture and language, it is easier for an Imperial princess to marry commoners and lose their status. There is no nobility in Japan and there are no other Imperial princes to marry short of commiting incest. In short, unless a person is a legitimate male-line descendant of Emperor Taisho (and unmarried for women), they are a commoner. -- [[User:65.92.149.147|65.92.149.147]] 04:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== A japanese princess has married a commoner ==

Hooray! -Patrick Beverley