Flaming (Internet) and Talk:Sayako Kuroda: Difference between pages

Revision as of 02:37, 15 October 2005

Revision as of 04:02, 18 November 2005

Line 1:

I have understood that ''nori no miya sayako naishinnō denka'''s translation would be: Sayako, female prince (=princess) suo jure of princedom Nori. (As far as anything can be translated fully.) Am I correct in trusting that the abovesaid Japanese wording is in use of her in Japan? (or, why is it mentioned in the text??)<br>Based on this, my proposition for her article heading is [[Sayako, Princess Nori]] [[User:217.140.193.123|217.140.193.123]] 9 July 2005 10:53 (UTC)

:'' This article is about the Internet meaning of the word "flaming". For other meanings, and meanings of the word "flame", see [[Flame]].''

== Birth rate nonsense ==

'''Flaming''' is the act of posting messages that are deliberately hostile and insulting, usually in the social context of a [[discussion board]] (usually on the [[Internet]]). Such messages are called flames, and are sometimes posted in response to [[flamebait]]. Flaming is one of a class of economic problems known as [[The Tragedy of the Commons]], when a group holds a resource (in this case, communal attention), but each of the individual members has an incentive to overuse it.

"Sayako has quit her job as an ornithologist in order to focus on her family life and potential motherhood, a decision commonly encouraged in Japanese society due to its falling birth rate." Due to its falling birth rate?? Tradtional values maybe. If this is an official statement from Kuroda or the Imperial family please say so. Otherwise, get rid of "due to its falling birth rate".

Although the trading of insults is as old as time itself, flaming on the Internet, like many other online 'actions', started in the [[Usenet]] hierarchies. A flame may have elements of a normal message, but is distinguished by its intent. A flame is typically not intended to be constructive, to further clarify a discussion, or to persuade other people. The motive for flaming is often not [[dialectic]], but rather social or psychological. Sometimes, flamers are attempting to assert their authority, or establish a position of superiority. Occasionally, flamers wish to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case they are [[Internet troll|troll]]s. Most often however, flames are angry or insulting messages transmitted by people who have strong feelings about a subject. Finally, some consider flaming to be a great way to let off steam, though the receiving party may be less than pleased.

: Well Japan's shrinking population is a fact, and the idea that Japanese women are encouraged to forgoe professional careers in favour of motherhood is not total conjecture either. This was the article that motivated me to add that, just to be clear: http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1115/p06s01-woap.html --[[User:Clngre|Clngre]] 16:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Similarly, a normal, non-flame message may have elements of a flame &ndash; it may be hostile, for example &ndash; but it is not a flame if it is seriously intended to advance the discussion.

:: Speaking as someone who's studied Japanese in Japan, that claim is not total nonsense, but it does not belong in this encyclopedic article. In particular, it oversimplifies Japanese culture. So, I have removed it. --[[User:LostLeviathan|LostLeviathan]] 18:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

== Flame wars ==

::: Ok, good point, I agree. --[[User:Clngre|Clngre]] 18:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

A '''flame war''' is a series of flaming messages in an electronic discussion group or [[internet forum]] system such as [[usenet]], [[mailing list]]s or [[forum]]s. There are a number of characteristics of electronic communication which have been cited as being conducive to flame wars. Electronic communications do not easily transmit facial expressions or voice intonations which may serve to moderate the tone of a message. Also, there is typically a [[lag]] time between the time a message is transmitted and the time a reply is read. These two characteristics can cause a "positive feedback loop" in which the emotional intensity of an electronic exchange increases to extremely high levels.

== "left the Imperial Family" ==

Alternatively, flame wars may be instigated deliberately by [[Internet troll]]s. Not all trolls are successful, though.

What does it mean that she "left the Imperial Family"? -[[User:130.232.65.174|130.232.65.174]] 16:12, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Jay W. Forrester described a phenomenon that often happens in flamewars whereby participants talk past each other. Each participant employs a different [[Semiotics|mental model]] (i.e. due to fundamental differences in their assumptions about what a particular word or concept means, they are actually discussing two different things).

:Because she married a commoner, she is no longer in the line of succession. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 17:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

===Interforum flame wars===

While most flame wars occur within a single message board, forum, or community, sometimes flame wars will errupt between two separate forums (especially when both forums are centered around similar subjects). This may happen in a variety of ways:

*A member of Forum A leaves on bad terms, joins Forum B and flames Forum A. Members of Forum B side with their new member, then proceed to also bash Forum A (regardless of any personal knowledge of the workings of that forum). Members from Forum A may then begin to flame Forum B, et cetera.

*A member (or members) of Forum A join(s) Forum B with the intent of "spamming" their board or generally being a nuisance. This is typically unprovoked. Members of Forum B become frustrated and begin flaming Forum A.

*Members or administrators of Forum A may accuse members or administrators of Forum B of "hacking" accounts or the board itself.

:It means that she must forfeit her royal title, forfeit her right to a royal allowance, and leave the royal palace. At this time, women are not permitted to assume the royal throne in Japan and therefore she was never in the line of succession.

Also message boards that have fanbases who have a disliking of each other have been known to flame each other (Star Trek and Star Wars for example). E.g. the infamous R&R Invasions in which the Trout Slapping R&Rers invade other forums (i.e. General, CounterStrike, etc...), only to be pwnd completely, [[TrekBBS]] vs Stardestroyer.net

Is she still allowed contact with the Imperial Family, and perhaps attending the occasional Imperial event? --[[User:Madchester|Madchester]] 18:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

== Extended use of the term "flame war" ==

:As far as I know, she will not "openly" contact the Imperial Family but occasionally may attend events when invited. This contact issue is a result of the current constitution that basically forbids the Imperial Family from taking a political position. Suppose her husband (or herself) runs for a seat in congress (unlikely but possible) and reveals his political view a day (or week, month, year, decade, even century) after she met with the Imperial Family. It will be impossible to argue that there was no discussion of politics. Japanese will then be inclined to support his view out of respect for the Imperial Family (compare with how a Catholic in general would support Pope's view) and arguing against would be impossibly hard. Anyway, except for occasional events when a chance encounter is possible, she will not have contact that we will know of. -- [[User:Revth|Revth]] 03:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Sometimes, serious academic or technical disagreements online are described casually as "flame wars" even when the major participants are making useful and informative points and, largely, not flaming. This may have to do with the degree to which observers identify emotionally with the sides of the debate, or see esteemed leaders or role-models representing their own points of view powerfully.

Hm. If she has a son, will he be considered outside the royal line of succession? --[[User:Brasswatchman|Brasswatchman]] 21:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

For example, the [[Usenet]] discussion between [[Andrew S. Tanenbaum]] and [[Linus Torvalds]] on [[microkernel]] versus [[monolithic kernel]] [[operating system]] design has been described as a famous "flame war". Despite being designated a "flame war", the debate is quite informative: it has been studied by serious computer scientists and researchers, and continues to remain recommended and even required reading in courses on OS design and implementation.

:Yes, current laws will keep anyone who does not retain the title to be outside succession. -- [[User:Revth|Revth]] 03:47, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Partly, terming such a discussion a "flame war" seems to be due to faulty or distorted memory of the discussion itself: it is easier to remember the (relatively few) insulting asides made -- such as Tanenbaum's comment that he would give Torvalds a poor grade for [[Linux]]'s design -- than it is to remember the technical points. To continue the above example, Torvalds and Tanenbaum have both made it clear that they consider their famous discussion to have been mischaracterized.

== "the Imperial Family" ==

Technical "advocacy" discussions, concerning the merits or flaws of a technology -- or especially of rival technologies -- can often seem "flamy" simply from the emotional intensity of hobbyists or professionals involved. Some have called the debates about the relative merits of [[Intel Pentium]] versus [[PowerPC]], or [[Pentium 4]] versus [[Athlon|Athlon XP]], or [[Microsoft Windows]] versus [[Mac OS X]], or [[Apple]]'s decision to go with [[NeXT]] over [[BeOS]] as "flame wars", even though the discussions are often highly technical and non-inflammatory.

Was she to marry within the Imperial Family, or is there more than one Imperial Family in Japan? This does not seem fair to me. We all are people of God, what right is it that some demand to be imperial to others. Like bush.

Also, the debates on certain topics in theoretical physics, such as [[loop quantum gravity]] versus [[string theory]] between [[Lubos Motl]] and [[John Baez]] and [[Steve Carlip]] has been described by string theorist and Harvard professor of physics Lubos Motl as a "flame war" -- despite the fact that they were a source of fruitful articles on quasinormal modes of black hole physics.

Is she still allowed to go to family functions and holidays? I guess some people (her husband) are not allowed to move up in the world.

:And of course someone has to pull the "People of God" crap. She probably left on her own accord, seeing as how the article doesn't mention any hoopla being thrown by her family. I think they normally marry members of government, diplomats or people higher on the social ladder.--[[User:Kross|Kross]] | [[User talk:Kross|Talk]] 18:09, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

:One other possibility that occured to me reading this article: is it possible that this is just the way that the Imperial Family works? That daughters are considered to "marry out" of the household, while sons stay in the same household? That would fit with what I know of some traditional Asian cultures. I would appreciate it if someone who knew more about traditional Japanese culture would weigh in. --[[User:Brasswatchman|Brasswatchman]] 21:32, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

It is also possible that the use of the term "flame war" for heated debates is used in anticipation of the debate becoming an actual flame war.

::You're right, according to [[Japanese_Imperial_Family#Living_former_members_of_the_imperial_family|this]], they lose their titles as soon as they get hitched.--[[User:Kross|Kross]] | [[User talk:Kross|Talk]] 22:13, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

:.........I smell a Disney movie plot. All it needs is a talking animal played by a black comedian and it'll be perfect. [[User:Keaton|Keaton]] | [[User talk: Keaton|Keaton]] 7:32PM 11/15/05

== Holy wars ==

::So true, Keaton, so true... LOL! [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 09:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

A '''holy war''', in the sense used in [[hacker slang]], is a protracted, sometimes heated, conflict or argument based on "religious differences" -- usually, personal preferences of one technology over another. Famous holy wars of hackerdom have included the [[Unix]] vs. [[Incompatible Timesharing System|ITS]] disagreement (which spawned the ''[[UNIX-HATERS Handbook]]'') and the perennial [[editor wars]] between Unix programmers who use [[vi]] to edit [[source code]] and those who use [[emacs]].

Whereas a flame war is usually a particular spate of flaming against a non-flamy background, a holy war is a drawn-out disagreement that may last years or even span careers. For instance, younger Linux programmers who today have strong opinions on vi and emacs may not even have been born in [[1976]] when these editors were released.

==So it's because he's a commoner or not?==

Use of the term "Holy War" implies that the root of the disagreement is a clash of [[Values#Personal_and_cultural_values|values]], and intractible of resolution except by agreeing to disagree.

The sentence "These changes in her status are demanded by a 1947 law that requires female members of the Imperial Family to relinquish their birth position, official membership in the royal family, and allowance upon their marriage." makes it sound like '''any''' marriage would mean that the women would have to leave the Imperial Family. So just to make sure I understand this, is it because she married a "commoner" or is it because she simply married anyone that she has to leave the Family? [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 09:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The 1947 Imperial Household Law states that if a female member of the imperial family (a naishinnō or an nyoō) marries anyone other than the emperor or another male member of the imperial family, she will automatically lose her status as a member of the imperial family. The issue of princess marrying within the imperial family has not arisen since the 1947 law went into effect because the membership of the imperial family was effectively limited to the male line descendants of Emperor Taishō. Only two of that emperor's four sons, Emperor Shōwa and Prince Mikasa, had children and grandchildren. There simply is no pool of potential husbands among the current imperial family members (22 people).

== External links ==

* A compilation of several [http://www.boredreader.com/links.htm guides to flaming]

* Andrew Heenan's [http://www.advicemeant.com/flame/ Guide to Flaming]

* Netizen's Guide to [http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/ Flame Warriors]

Chapter III, Article 14 of the 1947 Constitution of Japan states, "Peers and peerage shall not be recognized." There are only two classes of Japanese recognized by this constitution: (1) the members of the imperial family, and (2) all other Japanese citizens. Therefore, even the descendants of the Meiji era kazuko (peerage) and the miyake (imperial collateral lines) are legally commoners. [[User: Jeff]] 07:25, 16 November 2005

[[Category:Internet lore]]

:So wouldn't it be rather incestuous for her to marry one of the Imperial Family? [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 20:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Category:Internet]]

::The imperial family is huge. All royal families have long traditions of marrying distant (and not-so-distant) cousins. When you have a single imperial family tree that has lasted for two millennia, you have a lot of branches. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 21:36, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

:::Okay, one of you says that the Imp. Fam. is 22 members strong, the other says it's "huge" with lots of branches. I'm still confused.... [[Dismas]]|[[User talk:Dismas|^(talk)]] 19:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

::::Maybe I'm wrong. Shrug. Ask them. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 20:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[[cs:Flame war]]

[[da:Flame war]]

:::::Golbez, the Japanese Royal Family ''did'' have collateral branches. If you'd read Jeff's earlier post, you'd know that these lines lost their royal status after 1947, as well as the former peerage (nobles like dukes, counts, barons, etc.). A woman traditionally takes the status of her husband upon marriage, which would mean that an Imperial princess must marry of equal rank to keep her title.

[[de:Flame]]

[[fr:Flaming]]

:::::Unless she marries into one of the other royal families of East Asia, which would require adopting a whole new culture and language, it is easier for an Imperial princess to marry commoners and lose their status. There is no nobility in Japan and there are no other Imperial princes to marry short of commiting incest. In short, unless a person is a legitimate male-line descendant of Emperor Taisho (and unmarried for women), they are a commoner. -- [[User:65.92.149.147|65.92.149.147]] 04:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

[[he:שלהוב]]

[[nl:Flaming]]

== A japanese princess has married a commoner ==

[[pl:Kłótnia internetowa]]

[[pt:Flame war]]

Hooray! -Patrick Beverley

[[ru:Религиозные войны (сленг)]]

[[sk:Flame war]]

[[sv:Flejma]]