Jesus and User talk:Kuban kazak: Difference between pages

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{{this|Jesus of Nazareth|Jesus (disambiguation)}}

{{Jesus}}

'''Jesus''', [[#Names and titles|also known as]] '''Jesus of Nazareth''' or '''Jesus Christ''', is the central figure of [[Christianity]], most of the adherents of which worship him as the [[Messiah]], [[son of God]], and God [[incarnation|incarnate]]. In [[Islam]], Jesus (called ''[[Isa]]'') is one of God's most beloved and important [[prophets of Islam|prophets]].

== Kharkiv ==

The main sources concerning the life and teachings of Jesus are the four [[Gospel#Canonical Gospels|canonical gospels]] from the [[New Testament]], which depict Jesus as (among other things) a [[Galilee|Galilean]] rabbi, healer, and performer of other miracles, who was often at odds with Jewish religious authorities, and was [[crucifixion|crucified]] outside of [[Jerusalem]] during the rule of the [[Roman Empire|Roman]] prefect [[Pontius Pilate]]. The degree to which the gospels convey reliable historical information about Jesus is disputed, and all other known sources provide limited corroboration. Nevertheless, the majority of scholars do agree that Jesus did, at least, exist<small>{{ref|ScholarlyViewOnExistenceOfJesus}}</small>.

Hey Kuban kazak. The use of ''[[Kharkiv]]'' vs. ''Kharkov'' has been discussed at length and the current form is the result of the consensus several editors. Please consult [[talk:Kharkiv]] and its archive, and discuss there if you want to propose such a change. Cheers, ''[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-10-15&nbsp;23:17&nbsp;Z</small>''

The chronology of Jesus' life is uncertain, as the gospels mainly describe the events immediately prior to his crucifixion and no dates are known. The [[Anno Domini]] system of reckoning years was originally based on setting [[1|year 1]] as the first full year of Jesus' life. However, based on the mention of [[Herod the Great]] in the [[gospel of Matthew]], more-recent estimates place Jesus' birth as early as [[8 BC|8 BC/BCE]], and as late as [[4 BC|4 BC/BCE]]. Based on the years of Pilate's rule, Jesus' death is now estimated to have taken place between [[26|26 AD/CE]] and [[36|36 AD/CE]].

==Moscow Metro==

Beyond the historical information accepted by most secular scholars, the gospels make various additional claims about Jesus, for instance that he was the [[messiah]] prophesied in the [[Old Testament]] (or [[Hebrew Bible]]); that he was God, and the "son of God"; that his mother [[Mary]] was a [[Virgin Birth|virgin]]; and that after his [[crucifixion]] he [[resurrection|rose from the dead]], then [[ascension|ascended]] into heaven. Numerous [[miracles]] and other [[supernatural]] events are attested.

Hi there, kazak! I noticed that you put the apostrophes back in the names of some of the Moscow Metro stations. Just wanted to let you know that English Wikipedia traditionally utilizes Russian transliteration guidelines outlined [[Transliteration of Russian into English|here]]. While it is generally understood that there is no single transliteration system used by everyone, it had been decided that the usage of one system greatly helps maintain the consistency of the articles. At this time, most articles dealing with Russia-related topics use that transliteration system (which omits apostrophes used for soft and hard signs). You may also want to check out [[Portal:Russia/New article announcements|this announcement board]] (just do an in-page search for "metro" to find relevant announcements) for more information specifically regarding the naming of Moscow Metro stations. By all means do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions. Best,&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

==Welcome==

For Christians, Jesus is God who came to earth as a historical person to save mankind. His life and teachings are remembered by most Christians in church services, as well as through the Christian [[liturgical calendar]] (including holidays such as [[Christmas]] and [[Easter]]).

Just to say Welcome! I'm glad we now have a Cossack on Wikipedia :) [[User:Nikola Smolenski|Nikola]] 18:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

==Transliteration==

For [[Muslims]], Jesus is one of the major [[prophets of Islam|prophets]] of Islam, a bringer of divine scripture, and also the [[Messiah#In Islam|Messiah]] &mdash; although they attach a different meaning to this term than Christians, as they do not share the Christian belief in the [[divinity]] of Jesus.

The point of transliteration is to enable English speakers to be able to pronounce these Russian names in the correct fashion. The reason Y is used to represent Ы, Й, -ий, -ый is that it is the closest English letter to those sounds. I understand your objection to using the "ai" sound to represent all these letters, which would be incorrect, but you have to understand that most of the time Y is not pronounced "ai" in English. It can also be pronounced "i" as in "system" and "ee" as in "fiery," not to mention the Y consonant sound.

A native English speaker will pronounce "Leninsky Prospekt" and "Leninskiy Prospekt" the same, and he or she would never say "LeninskAI Prospekt." Using "iy" as opposed to "y" does not change the way the word is pronounced, and "iy" is an unfamiliar letter combination in English that readers may not know how to pronounce.

==Life and teachings, based upon the gospels==

<!--- This section is not intended to give full details of the life and teachings of Jesus according to the Gospel, for which editors and readers are directed to branch articles. Neither is it intended to present his life according to any one religious perspective, for which there are also branch articles. If you feel that the material presents only one perspective, please add to it - or discuss proposed additions on talk pages.-->

{{main2|New Testament view on Jesus' life|Historical Jesus}}

===Chronology===

{{main|Chronology of Jesus}}

{{JesusTimeline}}

Using a J to represent the consonant Y sound is even more ridiculous. J ''never'' makes a Y sound in English. An English reader confronted with a word like "Oktjabrskaja" will have no idea how to pronounce it, and if they attempt to say it they will almost certainly be wrong. The spelling "Oktyabrskaya," which correctly uses the letter Y to represent the Y consonant sound, will be pronounced correctly by an English speaker.

The most detailed accounts of Jesus' birth are contained in the [[Gospel of Matthew]] and the [[Gospel of Luke]]. There is considerable debate about the details of Jesus' birth even among Christian scholars, and few scholars claim to know either the year or the date of his birth or of his death.

As to your other objections, in English "north-south" does not imply that the street (or avenue) runs from the north TO the south, it just means the street's alignment is along the north-south axis as opposed to the east-west axis. Removing Profsoyuznaya from the list was an accident. Regarding your request for British spelling, by Wikipedia convention either spelling is appropriate.

Based on the accounts in the Gospels of the shepherds' activities, the time of year depicted for Jesus' birth could be spring or summer. However, as early as [[354]], Roman Christians celebrated it following the [[December]] [[solstice]] in an attempt to replace the Roman festival of [[Saturnalia]]. Before then, Jesus' birth was generally celebrated on [[January 6]] as part of the feast of [[Theophany]], also known as [[Epiphany (feast)|Epiphany]], which commemorated not only Jesus' birth but also his [[baptism]] by [[John the Baptist|John]] in the [[Jordan Valley|Jordan]] and possibly additional events in Jesus' life.

I appreciate your work on the rolling stock, extensions, and correction to the plans of Park Pobedy and Izmaylovsky Park. I did not realize that they were done by you because you were listed as an IP address.

In the 248th year of the [[Diocletian]] [[Calendar era|Era]] (based on Diocletian's ascension to the Roman throne), [[Dionysius Exiguus]] attempted to pinpoint the number of years since Jesus' birth, arriving at a figure of 753 years after the founding of [[Rome]]. Dionysius then set Jesus' birth as being [[December 25]] [[1 BC|1 ACN]] (for "Ante Christum Natum", or "before the birth of Christ"), and assigned AD [[1]] to the following year&mdash;thereby establishing the system of numbering years from the birth of Jesus: ''[[Anno Domini]]'' (which translates as "in the year of the [[Lord]]"). This system made the then current year [[532]], and almost two centuries later it won acceptance and became the established calendar in Western civilization due to its championing by the [[Bede|Venerable Bede]].

[[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 13:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

However, based on a [[lunar eclipse]] that Josephus reports shortly before the death of [[Herod the Great]], the birth of Christ would have been some time before the year [[4 BC| 4 BC/BCE]]. This estimate itself relies on the historicity of the story in the gospel of Matthew of the [[Massacre of the Innocents]] under the orders of Herod &mdash; an event mentioned nowhere else in contemporaneous accounts. Having fewer sources and being further removed in time from the authors of the New Testament, establishing a reliable birth date is particularly difficult.

Fair enough. I still don't understand the advantage of using -iy instead of -y, but if that's what you want to use I'm fine with it. I'm glad you figured out how to move the pages without creating duplicate articles. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 21:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

The exact date of Jesus' death is also unclear. The Gospel of John depicts the crucifixion just before the Passover festival on Friday 14 [[Nisan]], called the [[Quartodecimanism|Quartodeciman]], whereas the [[synoptic gospels]] describe the [[Last Supper]], immediately before Jesus' arrest, as the [[Passover]] meal on Friday 15 Nisan. Further, the Jews followed a [[lunisolar calendar]] with phases of the moon as dates, complicating calculations of any exact date in a solar calendar. According to John P. Meier's ''A Marginal Jew'', allowing for the time of the [[procurator]]ship of [[Pontius Pilate]] and the dates of the [[Passover]] in those years, his death can be placed most probably on [[April 7]], [[30]] or [[April 3]], [[33]].

:Pardon me for intervening, but I would like to note that Wikipedia transliteration system is not a matter of someone's personal preference. Using "ja" is definitily not incorrect, but "ya" is also by no means not incorrect&mdash;these are merely conventions of two different transliteration systems (which, I repeat, are both "correct", but used for different purposes). The WP transliteration system was devised to maintain consistency&mdash;any other system could have certainly been used with the same effect (be it ISO-9, straight BCGN/PGN, or Russian GOST). [[Transliteration of Russian into English|Current system]] has been selected as the best for transliterating Russian into '''English'''; it is not merely a generic system, but one that targets the needs of English-speaking readers and is, as such, more common in English media/texts. I would recommend that you adjust your transliteration habits when dealing with the English WP articles. Using just one system benefits English WP greatly, and, since the tradition is pretty much set, I suggest you accept it. Just imagine that suddenly your system is adopted just as widely as the current one is&mdash;how would you deal with someone who comes in in half a year and insists that ISO-9 is the only way to go? Hope for your understanding, and keep up your otherwise great work. Feel free to drop me a line if you have questions or comments. Cheers,&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

==Ukraine==

=== Family and early life ===

Hi, Kuban Kazak, and welcome again. I just thought I stop by and request that you use some extra caution in UA-RU controvercial issues. It is easy to make others lose their temper and extra care is warranted. Since you seem interested in religeous affairs of Ukraine, you may take a look at [[Patriarch Filaret (Mykhailo Denysenko)]] article and click on the links. Hopefully, you will help to improve Ukrainian topics and avoid the edit wars. Thanks, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 16:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

{{main2|Nativity|Child Jesus}}

:Sorry about that, got carried away... anyway thanks for watering down the version, I suppose that that is any wikipedia's responsibility...I also wish for your help on the Kiev Metro section (photographs, we need photographs there). Actually I want to make a portal about all the metro systems of the former Ussr and hope for your help. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 14:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[[Image:BethlehemBirth.gif|thumb|left|The traditional ___location of Jesus Christ's birth in Bethlehem.]]

Thanks a lot for your work on expansion of [[Kiev Metro]] coverage. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 05:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

According to the Gospels, Jesus was born in [[Bethlehem]] to [[Mary, the mother of Jesus|Mary]], a [[virgin]], via the [[Holy Spirit]]. The [[Gospel of Luke]] gives an account of the [[angel]] [[Gabriel]] visiting Mary to tell her that she was chosen to bear the son of God ([http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:26-28&version=31 Luke 1:26-28]). This is called the [[Annunciation]]. [[Saint Joseph|Joseph]], Mary's betrothed husband, appears only in stories of Jesus' childhood; this is generally taken to mean that he was dead by the time of Jesus' ministry. {{Gospel Jesus}}

Mark 6:3 (and analogous passages in Matthew and Luke) reports that Jesus was "''Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon,''" and also states that Jesus had sisters. The 1st-century Jewish historian [[Josephus]] and the Christian historian [[Eusebius of Caesarea|Eusebius]] (who wrote in the [[4th century]] but quoted much earlier sources that are now lost) refer to [[James the Just]] as Jesus' brother (See [[Desposyni]]). However, [[Jerome]] argued that they were Jesus' cousins, which the Greek word for "brother" used in the Gospels would allow. This was based on the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox tradition that Mary remained a perpetual virgin, thus having no biological children before or after Jesus. Luke's Gospel records that Mary was a relative of Elizabeth, mother of [[John the Baptist]] (Luke 1:36). The Bible, however, does not reveal exactly how Mary and Elizabeth were related.

==Russian portal==

[[Child Jesus|Jesus' childhood]] home is represented as [[Nazareth]] in [[Galilee]]. Only one incident between his infancy and his adult life, the [[Finding in the Temple]], is mentioned in the canonical Gospels, although [[New Testament apocrypha]] go into these details, some quite extensively.

Dear colleague, it would have been nice of you to announce newly created articles [[Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Russia/New_article_announcements|here]]. Thanks. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 13:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

:And also [[Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Ukraine/New_article_announcements|here]]. I will try to help with what I can with metro. BTW, IMO we should probably use modern Ukrainian names for most, if not all, stations/lines in [[Kiev Metro]]. Thanks for your interest. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 20:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

==St. Volodymyr's==

See [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated_wholesale_removal_of_info_from_St._Volodymyr.27s_Cathedral]]. Feel free to comment. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

: Oh I commeted alright, one thing is to argue a POV, another thing is to descredit a POV and delete whole sections, Варварство причем варварство в самом прямом смысле.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 13:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

What a mess!!! I hope this would be soon put to an end. I haven't realized that you were writing to AndriyK at the same time as I was writing to him. I corrected the title of your section at his talk. I hope it is OK with you. Please send me your email address if you don't mind --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 21:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

For most Christians, only the [[virgin birth]] and the [[Incarnation]] itself are major articles of faith for this period of time before Jesus begins his ministry. Muslims also believe in the virgin birth, but aside from that, few, if any, non-Christians believe in either, and look upon stories of the virgin birth as mythological or even as perhaps indicating that Jesus was conceived out of wedlock.

:And sorry, I could not yet get to your Metro articles. You obviously see the reasons. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 22:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

::Опыт говорит что правокаторы приходят и уходят, а метро уже 70, 50, 45 лет в Мск, СПб и Киеве соответственно. Сейчас выметем мусор а потом делом займемся.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi, please do not get mad that I removed your entry from St Volodymyr's talk. Let's not get people crazy when we are approaching a difficult compromise there. I wholeheartedly share your desire for Ukraine to finally get a single canonical local Church which I would prefer to see [[autocephalous]]. I just thought the article you linked will start another barrage of flames. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 21:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

=== Later life ===

[[Image:Baptism-christ.jpg|thumb|right|204.5px|''The Baptism of Christ'', by [[Piero della Francesca]], [[1449]].]]

==[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Geographic names]]==

According to Christian belief, just after he was [[baptized]] by [[John the Baptist]] he began his public teaching; he is generally considered to have been about thirty years old at that time. Jesus used a variety of methods in his teaching, such as [[paradox]], [[metaphor]] and [[parable]]. His teaching frequently centered on the ''Kingdom of God'', or ''[[Kingdom of Heaven]]''. Some of his most famous teachings are in the [[Sermon on the Mount]], which also contains the [[Beatitudes]]. His parables (or stories with a deep or metaphorical meaning) include the parable of the [[Good Samaritan]], and the [[Prodigal Son]]. Jesus had a number of [[disciples]]. His closest followers were twelve [[apostle]]s. According to the New Testament, Jesus also performed various [[Miracles of Jesus|miracles]] in the course of his ministry, including healings, [[exorcism]]s, and raising [[Lazarus]] from the dead.

Another thing, I think there is quiet a good discussion with an excellent proposal being hammered out by several users at [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions/Geographic_names]]. The latest version is very close to what I would like to see as a Wikipedia policy and, if implemented, it would also help to quickly put an end to certain behaviours of certain users if you know what I mean. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

== Wikipedia is not a "Russian Orthodox Encyclopaedia" ==

Jesus frequently put himself in opposition to the Jewish religious leaders including the opposing forces of [[Sadducee]]s and [[Pharisees]]. His teaching castigated the Pharisees primarily for their [[legalism]] and hypocrisy, although he also had followers among the religious leaders (see [[Nicodemus]]). In his role as a social reformer, and with his followers holding the inflammatory view that he was the [[Jewish Messiah]], Jesus threatened the [[status quo]].

Please stop pushing Russian Orthodox POV to the articles. Please pay attention that ''canonicity''

Jesus' preachings included the forgiveness of sin, life after death, and resurrection of the body. Jesus also preached the imminent end of the current era of history, or even the literal end of the world; in this sense he was an [[apocalyptic]] preacher. Some interpretations of the text, particularly amongst [[Protestant]]s, suggest that Jesus opposed stringent interpretations of [[Halakha|Jewish law]], supporting the spirit more than the letter.

*is viewed somewhat differently by Orthodox and Catholic Churches;

*is not recognized by Protestant Churches;

*is not recognized by most of people in the wold that are not Cristian at all.

Please read [[WP:NPOV]] carefully.

It is commonly thought that Jesus preached for a period of three years, but this is never mentioned explicitly in any of the Gospels, and some interpretations of the [[Synoptic Gospels]] suggest a span of only one year; to achieve consistency with the [[Gospel of John]], one theory suggests that the last Gospel describes a timeline which depicts a ministry time period of approximately one year.

::''NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view.''

Please pay attention that pushing Orthodox POV is against the WP policies.--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 21:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Some scholars, notably [[Hyam Maccoby]], point out that key details of the Triumphant Entry into Jerusalem, such as the [[Hosana]] shout, the waving of palm fronds, the proclamation of a king, are more consistent with the [[Feast of Tabernacles]], or [[Sukkoth]], than with Passover.

:The original article said something along the lines of "a church viewed uncannonical by the Orthodox Communion" i.e. Protestant, Catholics and other religions have nothing to do with this article. The church is NOT recognignised by other Orthodox Churches which happen to have cannonical standing. It is you who needs to pay attention and not omitt these facts, same NPOV argument my ''Drug'' [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

===Arrest, trial and execution===

[[Image:Michelangelo Petersdom Pieta.JPG|thumb|left|205px|[[Michelangelo]]'s ''[[Michelangelo's Pietà|Pietà]]'' shows Mary holding the dead body of Jesus.]]

Christian belief holds that Jesus came with his followers to Jerusalem during the [[Passover]] festival, and created a disturbance at the [[Temple in Jerusalem|Temple]] by overturning the tables of the moneychangers there. He was subsequently arrested on the orders of the [[Sanhedrin]] and the high priest, [[Caiaphas|Joseph Caiaphas]] for [[blasphemy]], because, according to the gospels, he claimed to be God. He was identified to the guards by one of his apostles, [[Judas Iscariot]], who is portrayed as having betrayed Jesus by a kiss.

Kuban kazak, I also got this message. I will respond shortly at AndriyK's talk. Please see [[Talk:Lviv Oblast]] re names. The issue isn't trivial. Also, please email me with your email address if you don't mind. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 00:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Jesus was condemned for blasphemy by the Sanhedrin and was turned over to the [[Roman Empire|Romans]] for execution. All four Gospel accounts mention that the charge noted on the tablet called the ''titulus crucis'', attached by orders of Pilate atop the cross, included the term "[[King of the Jews]]", though the gospels represent Pilate as having found nothing inherently seditious in Jesus' teachings. See article [[Barabbas]] for more about the trial before Pilate. In art, the titulus crucis is often written as [[INRI]], the [[Latin]] acronym for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews."

:Sorry for interfering again, but let's not inflame our opponents in the edit summaries. I responded on the essence on their positions on the article's and AndriyK's talk pages. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

== ...вряд ли ==

===Resurrection and Ascension===

{{main2|Resurrection of Jesus|Ascension}}

[[Image:Grunewald - christ.jpg|thumb|200px|A [[16th century|16th-century]] painting of the [[resurrection of Jesus]] by [[Matthias Grünewald]].]]

Родом я из Москвы. У меня прадед, будучи казаком, воевал в первую войну. Другие предки у меня с Полтавщины - наверняка с Хмельницким были. А сам я не то что бы казак, а скорее потомок казацкий - хотя шашка и нагайка дома имеются.

In accordance with the four canonical Gospel accounts [[Christianity|Christian]]s believe that Jesus was raised from the dead on the third day after his [[crucifixion]]. This article of faith is referred to in Christian terminology as the [[Resurrection of Jesus|Resurrection of Jesus Christ]]; and each year at [[Easter]] (on a [[Sunday]]) it is commemorated and celebrated by most groups who consider themselves Christians.

<br>[[User:Kazak|Kazak]] 02:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

==Challenge==

No one was a witness to the [[Resurrection of Jesus|resurrection]]. However, the women who had witnessed the entombment and the closure of the tomb with a great stone, found it empty when they arrived on the third day to [[anoint]] the body. The Synoptic Gospel accounts further state that an angel was waiting at the tomb to explain to them that Jesus had been resurrected, though the Gospel according to John makes no mention of this encounter. The sight of the same angel had apparently left the guards unconscious (cf. Matt 28:2&ndash;4) that according to Matthew 27:62&ndash;66 the high priests and Pharisees, with Pilate's permission, had posted in front of the tomb to prevent the body from being stolen by Jesus' disciples. Mark 16:9 says that Mary Magdalene was the first to whom Jesus appeared very early that morning. John 20:11&ndash;18 states that when Mary looked into the tomb, two angels asked her why she was crying; and as she turned round she initially failed to recognize Jesus&mdash;even by his voice&mdash;until he called her by her name. The Gospel accounts and the [[Acts of the Apostles]] tell of several appearances of Jesus to various people in various places over a period of forty days before he "ascended into heaven". Just hours after his resurrection he appeared to two travelers on the road to [[Emmaus]]. To his assembled disciples he showed himself on the evening after his resurrection, when [[Thomas (Apostle)|Thomas]] was however absent, though he was present when Jesus repeated his visit to them a week later. Thereafter he went to [[Galilee]] and showed himself to several of his disciples by the lake and on the mountain; and they were present when he returned to [[Bethany]] and was lifted up and a cloud concealed him from their sight.

Man, saw your challenge for AndriyK. Ahhh, I want it :)) Anyway, I see why you want him to do it, and I am not going to interfere, but if you have anything else that's equally interesting and not so recent (administrative divisions are a hobby of mine), let me know, OK?.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

:Try Belarus, from the same 1940s atlas. Or Russia, all of the historic regions, gubernia, different borders etc.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 11:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

::Guberniyas, them I've been doing anyway (see [[History of the administrative division of Russia]]), albeit it's progressing much slower than I wanted. What I had in mind was a specific, well-defined challenge. I'll take a look at Belarus, though. Thanks!&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 13:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

==Request for help==

The resurrection of Jesus is almost universally denied by those who do not follow the Christian religion. Most Christians&mdash;even those who do not hold to the literal truth of everything in the canonical Gospel accounts&mdash;accept the [[New Testament]] presentation of the Resurrection as a [[historical]] account of an actual event central to their [[faith]]. Therefore, belief in the resurrection is one of the most distinctive elements of Christian faith; and defending the [[Resurrection of Jesus#The historicity of the resurrection|historicity of the resurrection]] is usually a central issue of [[Christian apologetics]]. However, some [[liberal Christian]]s do not accept that Jesus was raised bodily from the dead, or that he still lives bodily (e.g., [[Bishop Spong|John Shelby Spong]], [[Tom Harpur]]).

[[User:Molobo]] has been in habit of vandalizing articles on [[Smolensk War]], [[Russophobia]], [[Belovezhskaya Pushcha]], etc. Now she attacks [[Berlin Congress]]. Please help to neutrilize her. Thanks, [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 12:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

=== Legacy ===

{{main2|Relics of Jesus|Apostolic Succession}}

According to most Christian interpretations of the [[Bible]], the theme of Jesus' preaching was that of [[apocalyptic]] [[repentance]]. During his public ministry Jesus extensively trained twelve [[Apostle]]s to continue after his departure his leadership of the many who had begun to follow him mainly in the towns and villages throughout [[Galilee]], [[Samaria]], and the [[Decapolis]]. Most Christians who hold that Jesus' miracles were literally true, not allegory, think that the Apostles gained the power to perform healing for both [[Jews]] and [[Gentiles]] alike after they had been empowered by the [[Holy Spirit]] of Truth (''to pneuma tēs alētheias'', John 14:17, 26; Luke 24:49, Acts 1:8, 2:4) that he had promised the Father would send them after his departure&mdash;a promise that according to Acts 2:4 was fulfilled at [[Pentecost]], poignantly the Jewish feast that, in addition to other Scriptural events, commemorates also the giving of the [[Torah|Law]] to [[Moses]]. For Christians, the legacy Jesus left was one of [[sacrifice]]; they believe that Jesus was sent by God to die as a sacrifice in place of all humanity. Christians hold that this sacrifice had to take place because all humans [[sin]] (they claim God's penalty for sin is death and separation from God) so God sent his son to die in their place. People who aren`t Christians sometimes reject these claims despite support from the Bible.

{{ref|JewishEncyclopedia}}

==Metro :(==

There are many items which are purported to be authentic [[relics of Jesus]]. The most famous of these are the [[Shroud of Turin]], which is claimed to be the burial [[shroud]] used to wrap his body, the [[Sudarium of Oviedo]], which is claimed to be the cloth which was used to cover his face, and the [[Holy Grail]] which is said to have been used to collect his blood during his [[crucifixion]] and possibly used at the [[Last Supper]]. Many modern Christians, however, do not accept any of these as true [[relics]]. Indeed, this skepticism has been around for centuries, with [[Erasmus]] joking that so much wood formed parts of the [[True Cross]], that Jesus must have been crucified on a whole forest.

Hi, Kazak. To be completely honest, I'm a bit disappointed with your recent moves of metro articles, especially considering the fact that you were the one scolding someone else for making silly edits. I already explained the Russian transliteration system used in Wikipedia, and I also explained that neither that system, nor the one you are more fond of, is by itself incorrect. However, only one system should be used for consistency sake. I would suggest that you adopt one that's already widely used instead of moving articles back and forth. [[Transliteration of Russian into English]] happens to be the system that Wikipedia's policies [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Russian names|prescribe]], and, as you undoubtedly know, non-complying with the policies is not usually the best idea. I do not mean to be petty or waste our time, but I am a consistency hobgoblin, that's for sure, and I ''do'' see consistency as one of the virtues Wikipedia should pursue. Thank you for your attention and understanding, and I would appreciate if you undid the rest of your changes yourself.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, I would also recommend you a refresher on [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English]] and to remind you that American spelling should not be changed into British (and vice versa) except when both variants co-exist on one page or when British spelling is used in an article on an American-related topic (and vice versa). In all other cases, the variant of English used by the original contributor should be used.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 23:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

==Religious perspectives==

{{main|Religious perspectives on Jesus}}

:If consistency is to be followed then you will find that british spelling is used on the main page, and the main page of the KRL was changed to my system and used since, what kind of consistency is this if one line will use one version and another one a different one. Me and Camerafield agreed to take off -ja and -ij in preference to -YA and -IY. So no point reverting my changes.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Image:Ushakov Nerukotvorniy.jpg|thumb|200px|[[Simon Ushakov]]'s [[1658]] depiction of ''Saviour Not Made by Hands'', the most popular iconography of Jesus in [[Eastern Orthodoxy]].]]

::The point is not something you discussed with another user. The point is to follow policies. If you see British spelling in one line and American in another, by all means correct that (but make sure you correct it to one the original author used, not the one you like the most). As for translit, please always correct it to conform with what the policies tell you to. I realize it may be hard for you&mdash;I, for example, cannot stand British spelling, but if that's what the original author used, then I will change all American spelling back to British if I happen to edit the page (mind you, some people actually choose to hunt down pages with inconsistent spelling). Again, this is not just the matter of personal courtesy, it's the matter of following the policies. You would not break the three-revert rule just because you do not like it or think that it was invented by a bunch of morons who had nothing better to do with their time, would you? Same goes for transliteration and spelling. Trust me, people broke too many spears and wasted too much time over these seemingly petty issues in the past. Each policy is there for a reason. I once again ask you to ''please'' comply.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 03:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

While most secular sources tend to take a strong skeptical view of the Gospels and similar texts claiming information on Jesus's life and works, Jesus has an important role in the two largest world [[religion]]s, [[Christianity]] and [[Islam]]. Most other religions, however, do not consider Jesus to have been a supernatural or holy being. Some of these religions, like [[Buddhism]], do not take any official stance on Jesus' life, while others, such as those practicing Jesus's own religion at the time of his death, [[Judaism]], generally reject claims of Jesus's divinity and regard him as a false prophet.

May I add to that what's my own take on this. Being not a native speaker I never interfere with American/British spelling issue. I just leave those words as they are (unless I edit a piece) and leave it up to native speakers Wikipedians to bother about this. This is really such a minor issue for us, that there is no need to persist if it is such a major issue for others. As for the choice of the transliteration, especially in the article's names, I only move them when I know what version of the name is prevails in English. Like I moved the article about the Soviet rocket designer called until recently ''Korolev'' to ''Korolyov'' simply because the latter is used in English clearly wider. For subway stations, there is no way to get any meaningful statistics of the English usage. So, I suggest to propose the moves at talk first and wait for a while. It is really not a big deal, is it? --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 05:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Christian]]s believe in and follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus. However, [[Christianity]] quite naturally has a more specific and involved meaning, as most Christians hold similar beliefs regarding Jesus and his life that are largely rejected by non-Christians. Generally speaking, most Christians believe that Jesus is the [[Son of God]], part of a [[trinity]] of three persons of God, and the [[Messiah]], who came to earth to [[salvation|save]] mankind from sin and death through a sacrifice. Most believe Jesus lived a perfect life and that is why his death on a cross, called the [[crucifixion]], counts as a sacrifice for mankind. According to Christian tradition the disobeying of God's command by the first man [[Adam]] caused all mankind to die, but because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus, all mankind who believe in Jesus may have eternal life. Most believe that after Jesus's death he [[resurrection|rose from the grave]] on the third day and forty days after that ascended to [[Heaven]]. There are many differing views within Christian groups as to whether or not Jesus ever claimed divinity. The majority of Christian laypeople, theologians, and clergy hold that the Bible shows Jesus both as divine, and claiming divinity; most believe that the mentions of Jesus's resurrection is proof that he is God. Others, however, believe that Jesus never claimed divinity, and stated plainly that he was not equal with God.

== NPOV ==

The theology of [[Messianic Judaism]] is basically identical to that of most of Christianity.

... Whilst I might have patriotic POVs, I am against an article not repressinting the other side of the story. NPOV is a wikipedia policy which everyone must adhere to. ... [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 13:30, 11 November 2005

The [[Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints]] maintains that Jesus is the very same as [[Jehovah]] or [[Yahweh]] of the [[Old Testament]] or [[Hebrew Bible]] but is distinct from God the Father, that he is the Creator of the Universe, that he spent the interval between the Crucifixion and the Resurrection organizing a Mission in the [[Spirit World]] for the righteous spirits to teach the Gospel to those in darkness, that he visited the inhabitants of both the ancient and modern Americas after his Resurrection, that shortly after it was founded the true church disappeared for some centuries and so a restoration was necessitated, beginning with a theophany given to [[Joseph Smith]] in 1820.

''(This is copied from my talk page)''--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

::Please find below some citations of your edits. Just to think once more about NPOV that "is a wikipedia policy which everyone must adhere to."--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The [[Ebionites]] believed that Jesus was a great Prophet who ordered an end to [[Animal Sacrifices]] and commanded strict [[Vegetarianism]], and both practiced and taught [[Pacifism]] and the renunciation of material possessions. They were led by the brother of Jesus, known as [[Jacob]] or [[James]], and rejected the [[Epistles of Paul]].

::::''It seen the revival of Orthodox religion in 1988 when the millenium celebration of the baptism of Rus marked a turn in the Soviet policy of religion. However afterwards dark times came on it again. In 1992, after Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine Filaret refused to resign, the cathedral became the first building to be captured by the UOC-KP. After the Karkov sinod and with the return of the new Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine Vladimir, members of the neo-fascist UNA-UNSO barrikaded themselves inside the cathedral and refused entry to the new cannonical church leader and several thousand believers who gathered to meet them. Despite numerous protests from all the world Orthodox communities the cathedral is yet to return to the church and is still in the hands of the schismatics.''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St_Volodymyr%27s_Cathedral&diff=26189124&oldid=25962321]

In [[Islam]], Jesus is known as ''[[Isa]]'', and is one of God's highest-ranked and most-beloved [[prophets of Islam|prophets]]. Like Christian writings, the [[Qur'an]] holds that Jesus was born without a biological father by the will of God, that he could perform miracles, and that he will one day return to the world to rid it of evil. However, unlike Christians, Muslims do not consider Jesus to have been the son of God, and do not believe that he died on the cross. Instead, the Qur'an states that his death was only an illusion (done by God) to deceive his enemies, and that Jesus ascended bodily to heaven. Muslims believe he will return to the world in the flesh with [[Imam Mahdi]] to defeat the ''[[Dajjal]]'' ([[Antichrist]]-like figure, translated as "Deceiver") once the world has become filled with sin, deception and injustice, and then live out the rest of his natural life. Muslims also believe that Jesus received a gospel from God (called the ''Injeel'') that corresponds to the Christian New Testament, but that it and the Old Testament have both changed by mankind over time as such that they no longer accurately represent God's original message to mankind. In Muslim traditions, Jesus lived a perfect life of nonviolence, showing kindness to humans and animals (similar to the other Islamic prophets), without material possessions and abstaining totally from alcohol and from the flesh of animals.

::::''After the pillage of Kiev by the Mongolian Tatarsin 1180 the cathedral fell into decline and was even taken up by the uniats ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Kiev&diff=prev&oldid=26809258]

The [[Ahmadi|Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam]] believes that Jesus survived the crucifixion and later travelled to [[India]], where he lived and died as a prophet under the name of [[Yuz Asaf]].

::Do you think your slighting attitude to other confessions is the way how the WP articles should be written?--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Judaism]] rejects both the [[Christian]] belief that Jesus was the [[Messiah]] and the [[Muslim]] belief that he was a [[prophet]]; Judaism states that no new prophets were created after the destruction of the [[First Temple]], and still awaits the coming of the Messiah. Jewish belief is not completely incompatible with some of the historical teachings attested to Jesus in the Gospels, but cannot be reconciled with the [[confession#Confession of faith|confessions]] by early Christian adherents, especially [[Paul of Tarsus|Paul]].

:::I did not say that I was the perfect example, yet I did not mind people editing my posts so that it be presented in an NPOV way. On the contrary before you people showed up, me and Irpen discussed how to water down the first example. In the end the seizure was agreed upon.

[[Hinduism|Hindu]] beliefs in Jesus vary from those who consider him to have been just a normal man, or even purely a fable, to those who believe that he was an [[avatar]] of god. A large number of Hindus consider Jesus to have been a wise [[guru]] or [[yogi]], some even suggesting that he spent his "lost years" learning various Hindu beliefs in India. The [[Hindutva]] historian [[P.N. Oak]] has even claimed that Jesus was in fact [[Krishna]], and that Christianity originated as a form of his worship. Many in the [[Surat Shabd Yoga]] tradition regard Jesus as a [[Satguru]]. [[Mahatma Gandhi]] considered Jesus his teacher and inspiration for [[Nonviolent Resistance]].

:::What I do not understand is how my extensive contribution about Sophia is a breach of NPOV. Поясни.

Although [[Buddhism]] in general attributes no spiritual significance to Jesus, some Buddhists believe that Jesus may have been a [[Bodhisattva]], one who has dedicated his or her future to the happiness of all beings. Some Buddhists also interpret Jesus through [[Zen Buddhism]], sometimes basing their perspective on the [[Gospel of Thomas]].

[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 16:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

== Mediation concerning [[St Volodymyr's Cathedral]] ==

The [[Bahá'í Faith]] considers Jesus to be one of many "Manifestations" (or prophets) of God, with both human and divine stations.

I propose to ask for official mediation to resolve the dispute concerning [[St Volodymyr's Cathedral]] article. Whould you agree?--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 18:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Some religions consider Jesus to be a false prophet. [[Mandaeanism]] regards Jesus as a deceiving prophet of the false Jewish god [[Adunay]], and an opponent of the good prophet [[John the Baptist]]&mdash;whom they nonetheless believe to have baptized him. Some [[Satanism|Satanists]] consider Jesus to have been the son or a follower of Satan, or Satan himself, but most do not hold any spiritual beliefs regarding Jesus.

:Not that I am against but then we pretty much have setteled everything there is to settle, I mean if it is something as petty as Kyiv vs Kiev then it is laughable at mediating that (considering the length this article travelled), but if that's how you want to end it, fine by me. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 18:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I've got an e-mail from the mediator. Please check your mailsbox so that we can start the dispute resolution.--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

The [[New Age]] movement entertains a wide variety of views on Jesus. with some representatives (such as [[A Course In Miracles]]) going so far as to trance-[[channeling|channel]] him. Many recognize him as a "great teacher" (or "[[Ascended Master]]") similar to [[Buddha]], and teach that Christhood is something that all may attain. At the same time, many New Age teachings, such as [[reincarnation]], appear to reflect a certain discomfort with traditional Christianity. Numerous New Age subgroups claim Jesus as a supporter, often incorporating contrasts with or protests against the Christian mainstream. Thus, for example, [[Theosophy]] and its offshoots have Jesus studying [[esotericism]] in the [[Himalaya]]s or [[Egypt]] during his "lost years".

==Background Balachka ==

{{main2|Cultural and historical background of Jesus|Aramaic of Jesus}}

[[Image:Judea.jpg|right|thumb|205px||Desert hills in southern Judea, looking east from the town of [[Arad, Israel|Arad]]]]

I've never heard of [[Balachka]], until you mentioned it in some discussion recently. It sounds like an interesting article topic. Would you create a stub? ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-11-12&nbsp;22:20&nbsp;Z</small>''

The world in which Jesus would have lived was volatile, marked by many cultural and political conflicts and tensions. Culturally, [[Jew]]s had to grapple with the values and philosophy of [[Hellenism]] and the imperialism of [[Rome]], together with the paradox that their [[Torah]] applied only to them, but revealed universal truths. This situation led to new interpretations of the Torah, influenced by Hellenic thought and in response to Gentile interest in Judaism.

: Basically it is not a language, it is a dialect which we cossacks speak, it is similar to Ukranian/Russian mix (although nothing like the surzhik dialect) but volcabulary is solely Russian (ie флаг is used instead of прапор, аnd Дворец instead of Палац etc) although some ecxeptions exist e.g. Червоны(е) Рассийски(е) Ю(г)а. differences exist mostly in the sounds of Г, В, and О. Moreover the dialect varies so much from stanitsa to stanitsa (and the older generations in particular) that there really is no common version of it. For instance in some places the e at the end is muffled others clearly pronounce it. Well anyway here are some examples:

Take pronounciation of cities: Харькаф, Ки'иф, Петербург (the g at the end is pronounced solid, not like h)

All of the [[land of Israel]] was a protectorate of the [[Roman Empire]] at the time of Jesus' birth. It was directly ruled by the [[Idumea|Idumaean]] [[Herod the Great]] who was appointed King of the Jews in [[Rome]] in [[39 BC| 39 BC/BCE]] by [[Mark Antony]] and [[Caesar Augustus]] (earlier known as [[Octavian]]). In [[6|6 AD/CE]] the Roman emperor Augustus deposed Herod's son [[Herod Archelaus]]. He combined [[Judea]], [[Samaria]], and [[Idumea]] into [[Iudaea Province]] which was placed under direct Roman administration and supervision by a Roman [[prefect]] who appointed a Jewish High Priest for [[Herod's Temple]] in Jerusalem. This general situation continued until [[64]] and the start of the [[Great Jewish Revolt]]. [[Galilee]], where the Gospels claim Jesus grew up, remained under the jurisdiction of another of Herod's sons, [[Herod Antipas]], [[Tetrarch]] of Galilee and [[Perea]], from [[4 BC|4 BC/BCE]] to [[39|39 AD/CE]]. <!--"Another" only refers to one person. If all three of those people are Herod's sons, it should be "three of Herod's sons". Either way, needs clarification.-->

Да шо ты мне (х)оворишь (if there is an h sound then it is very short although in my stanitsa it simply muffled)? Сам знаю шо наши Рус'ськи(э) казачки красние фсех, хотя балтиливые. The э sound at the end of that word is said very briefly but destinguishable.

The town claimed as Jesus' childhood home, [[Nazareth]], was probably a tiny hamlet of a few hundred inhabitants, according to archaeological findings in the area. It had no [[synagogue]], nor any public buildings. No gold, silver or imported goods have been found in it by excavation.

-Вот был Сталин, да по'аладали потом по'ое'али, но при этам было щастьи а потом умник Хрущоф

According to [[Josephus]], 1st-century Judaism consisted of several sects, the largest being the [[Sadducees]], who were closely connected with the priesthood and the Temple, and the [[Pharisees]], who were teachers and leaders of the [[synagogue]]s. They resented Roman occupation, but, according to historian Shaye Cohen (1988), were in Jesus' time relatively apolitical. In addition, isolated in small communities from these main groups, by choice, sometimes even taking to remote desert caves in anticipation of the [[end times]], lived the [[Essenes]], whose theology and philosophy are believed by some scholars to have influenced Jesus and/or [[John the Baptist]].

-Хрющиф чорт е'о падрал

Many Jews hoped that the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king (or [[Messiah]]) of the line of [[King David]]&mdash;in their view, the last legitimate Jewish regime. Most people at that time believed that their history was governed by God, meaning that even the conquest of Judea by the Romans was a divine act that would ultimately serve God's purposes. Therefore, the Romans would be replaced by a Jewish king only through divine intervention. Some, like John the Baptist in the first half of the century, and [[Yehoshua ben Ananias]] in the second half, claimed that a [[Kingdom of God|messianic age]] was at hand.

-Ща ты у миня будеш Хрюкать оГда пад маей шашкай акажишся...Вот взял и ород-ерой (alternatively g's if pronounced are used - no h substitute) СталинГрад периминавал В-Ол'ГоГрад (here is a good example where an В sound is pronounced and also the O sound is fully sounded and streched for longer than in normal Russian) Other examples of BO sound different: сем, осим, девять.

Josephus' [[Jewish Antiquities]] book 18 states there was a "fourth sect", in addition to Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes, which scholars associate with those he called [[Zealotry|Zealots]]. They were founded by [[Judas of Galilee]] and Zadok the Pharisee in the year 6 against [[Quirinius]]' tax reform and "agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord." (18.1.6) They believed that the kingdom should be restored immediately, even through violent human action, and advocated direct action against the Romans. Roman reaction against the Zealots eventually led to the destruction of [[Herod's Temple]] by [[Vespasian]] in August of [[70]], and the subsequent decline of the Zealots, Sadducees and Essenes.

[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 01:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

: Thanks. That's interesting; I can see the Ukrainian connection, although some of it is puzzling since I don't know Russian. Is the akanye usually spelt out, as in "Харькаф"? ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-11-13&nbsp;05:04&nbsp;Z</small>''

Some scholars have asserted that, despite the depictions of him as antagonistic towards the Pharisees, Jesus was a member of that group. {{ref|EPSaunders}}

See also: [[Pharisees#.22Pharisees.22 and Christianity|Pharisees and Christianity]]

::It is spelled out using Moscovite Russian translit here, balachka has no grammar or language, we write in Russian (although some stanitsas use the pre-1918 grammar), also it is spoken very quickly. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 14:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Jesus' native language was most likely [[Aramaic language|Aramaic]]; see [[Aramaic of Jesus]]. He may also have spoken other languages of the time, such as [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]], the Jewish [[liturgical language]], and [[Greek language|Greek]], the administrative language.

==[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Halibutt]]==

==Historicity==

{{main2|Historicity of Jesus|Historical Jesus|Jesus-Myth}}

[[Image:Christ pantocrator daphne1090-1100.jpg|thumb|205px|right|This [[11th century|11th-century]] [[Greece|Greek]] [[images of Jesus|image of Jesus]] is one of many in which a [[sun cross]] [[halo (religious symbol)|halo]] is used. Such depictions are characteristic of [[Eastern Orthodox Church|Eastern Orthodox]] [[iconography]].]]

I think you would be interested in voting here, especially as there are voices that Halibutt is an anti-Russian (Ukrainian, etc.) POV-pusher. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 23:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Most modern scholars hold that the works describing Jesus were initially communicated by [[oral history|oral tradition]], and were not committed to writing until several decades after Jesus' crucifixion. The earliest [[extant text]]s which refer to Jesus are [[Paul of Tarsus|Paul]]'s letters, which are usually dated from the mid-[[1st century]]. Paul saw Jesus only in visions, but he claimed that they were divine [[revelation]]s and hence authoritative (1 Galatians 11-12). The earliest extant texts describing Jesus in any detail were the four [[New Testament]] [[Gospel]]s. These texts, being part of the [[Biblical canon]], have received much more analysis and acceptance from Christian sources than other possible sources for information on Jesus.

:Don't know really, I was not here long enough to become in contact with Halibutt, so I shall withhold for the time being. Anyway you seem to have a strong case against him. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

::Ok. I don't have a case against Halibutt. As I explained on his talk page, I will even support him the next time around. But he should learn to dissociate himself from nationalist trolls like Molobo or Space Cadet. If you have had troubles with Molobo, please add the summary of his abuses to my note [[User_talk:Dbachmann#Molobo's RfAr|here]]. I believe we should stand united against his nationalist spree. Thanks, [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 14:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

==A bit more on the metro==

However, many [[apocrypha]]l texts have also surfaced detailing events in Jesus' life and teachings, chief among them the ''[[Gospel of Thomas]]'', a "sayings gospel" or ''[[logia]]'' consisting primarily of phrases attributed to Jesus. Other [[New Testament apocrypha]], generally considered less important, include the [[Gospel of the Hebrews]], the [[Gospel of Mary]], the [[Infancy Gospels]], the [[Gospel of Peter]], the [[Unknown Berlin Gospel]], the [[Naassene Fragment]], the [[Secret Gospel of Mark]], the [[Egerton Gospel]], the [[Oxyrhynchus Gospels]] and the [[Fayyum Fragment]].

Hi there. I have a couple minor questions on your metro project, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ulitsa_Podbelskogo&curid=2197317&diff=28587939&oldid=28587890 this edit] in particular. The first one I meant to ask for a while now&mdash;it's regarding the names of the architects. You've been using their initials so far, which is understandable, considering that's probably what most of your sources are using. You do, however, also wikilink them. Now, I don't really know much about those people, but do you think they are notable enough to ever have their own articles? My point is, if the only thing they are famous for is the station(s) they designed, maybe there is no need to link their names, especially when only the last name and initials are known. Anyway, that's just my thought.

The second question is regarding the external links section. I'm not sure why you didn't like my wording ("the description of the station on..."), and I'm not going to concern myself with this, but having a note in parentheses indicating that the link leads to the site which is not in English is a common courtesy to the reader. I've read too many interesting articles that made me hungry for more, only to discover that most of the links in the external links section are to the sites written in Chinese, Dutch, or Hebrew. I admit that not many editors concern themselves with these minor details, but since you are developing quite a few articles from scratch, perhaps you'd consider it? Besides, it's often a combination of both content and those minor details that creates a synergy of a great article.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 14:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Some texts with even earlier historical or mythological information on Jesus are speculated to have existed prior to the Gospels, though none are extant. Based on the unusual similarities and differences (see [[synoptic problem]]) between the [[Synoptic Gospels]]&mdash;[[Gospel of Matthew|Matthew]], [[Gospel of Mark|Mark]] and [[Gospel of Luke|Luke]], the first three canonical Gospels&mdash;many Biblical scholars have suggested that [[oral tradition]] and ''logia'' (such as the Gospel of Thomas and the theoretical [[Q document]]) probably played a strong role in initially passing down stories of Jesus, and may have inspired some of the Synoptic Gospels. Specifically, many scholars believe that the Q document and the Gospel of Mark were the [[two-source hypothesis|two sources]] used for the Gospels of Matthew and Luke; however, other theories, such as the older [[Augustinian hypothesis]], continue to hold sway with some Biblical scholars. Another theoretical document is the [[Signs Gospel]], believed to have been a source for the [[Gospel of John]].[http://www.aramaicnt.org/site/index.php?mode=article&entry=28] There is little consensus concerning how and when any of these documents were circulated, if they were at all.

:I did not wikilink them as I did not write the original article. Sorry about the removal of the description of the links, that was a typo. But why did you revert my translits, I mean since as you said none is right I just wanted to clarify them. Besides Krasniye vs Krasnye is much more logical considering that Y is not a vowel and is not suitable to substitute Ы since the index Ye is used to substute any E that's after a vowel and hence ЫЕ ЫЙ should be translited as IYE and IY consisdering there is no Ы in english anyway, and in my opinion the Y is overused in Russian to english translits anyway. -ий, -ый, й, ы, е. Give I a chance!!![[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 17:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Image:Rublev's saviour.jpg|thumb|200px|left|[[Andrei Rublev]]'s idealized image of [[Christ the Redeemer (icon)|Christ the Redeemer]] ([[1409]]).]]

::Sorry, my bad&mdash;it was me myself who added the wikilinks (duh!). That was in hopes someone would come and put the full names in. But since you obviously know the topic&mdash;do you think it'd be better to replace initials with full names and leave the names linked, or would it be better to simply remove the wikilinks because most of the metro stations architects were not all that notable?

The [[ecumenical council]] meetings in the [[4th century]] that discussed which works should and should not be included in the [[Biblical canon|canon]] were largely unconcerned with modern historical sensibilities, utilizing few techniques of objective textual analysis. Instead, their discussions generally tended to center upon [[theology]], rather than upon [[historicity]]. However, noted scholars [[F.F. Bruce]], [[Bruce Metzger]] and others argue that some historical details were taken into consideration regarding New Testament canon. It may be surmised that the early church leaders took for granted that historicity was not an issue to be debated, any more than debating the historicity of the [[Articles of Confederation]] or the [[Constitution]] would be major issues today. {{ref|VoorwindeCanon}}{{ref|FFBruceCanon}}{{ref|KeatingCanon}} In addition, Bible scholar [[Bruce Metzger]] wrote regarding the formation of the canonical New Testament:

:::Not notable? Nina Aleshina, Robert Pogreboi, Alexandr Dushkin... [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 20:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

:"Although the fringes of the emerging canon remained unsettled for generations, a high degree of unanimity concerning the greater part of the New Testament was attained among the very diverse and scattered congregations of believers not only throughout the Mediterranean world, but also over an area extending from Britain to Mesopotamia." {{ref|MetzgerNTCanon}}

::::Being less than a fan of Moscow and its history, I wouldn't know. Surely, some of the architects mentioned in the metro articles are far less notable than the others. Anyway, I'm leaving this up to your judgement to delink those people who do not deserve articles of their own. All I wanted to do their was to bring someone's attention to incomplete names.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

::Thanks for the clarification on the external links format, too.

As a result of the many-decade time gap between the writing of the Gospels and the events they describe, as well as the seemingly heavy pro-Jesus slant of these and other early accounts of Jesus' life, the accuracy of all early texts claiming the existence of Jesus or details of Jesus' life have been disputed by various parties. However, several Biblical historians have responded to claims of the unreliability of the Gospel accounts by pointing out that historical documentation is often biased and second-hand, and frequently dates from several decades after the events described - e.g., many of our eyewitness accounts of the Holocaust were conveyed by survivors several decades after the fact, but no reputable historian would dismiss them merely on that account.

::As for the transliteration (sigh), I did indeed mention that no existing system is "correct" (as well as "incorrect"). The question is again consistency. Yes, we can theoretically use "i" for "ы", but notice, however, that neither ISO-9, nor ALA-LC, nor Allworth, nor BGN/PCGN, nor even GOST systems do so. They all use "y". This is, simply put, a tradition. Why invent new rules? Do you really want to introduce ''yet another transliteration'' system to the slew of already existing ones? In the hindsight, the act of modifying BGN/PCGN (slightly!) for Wikipedia was probably not the best idea, but it was only done because using "y" to indicate "-ый" and "-ий" endings is so common when transliterating Russian into English, and because "yy" for "-ый" looks awful to an English-speaking reader. It makes sense, but it introduced elements of transcription into otherwise clean transliteration system. Substituting "i" for "ы" will add another one&mdash;but in this case the question is&mdash;why? It is certainly not traditional, and is not even more common (just google for "krasniye" vs "krasnye", or "chistiye" vs "chistye").

::I hope my explanations make sense to you. You won't believe how many times I had similar conversations in the past. So far I've been able to persuade those people that the system currently in place, while definitely not perfect, is the best for Wikipedia considering 1)&nbsp;the number of articles that already use it; 2)&nbsp;the traditions of transliterating Russian into ''English'' (this is English Wikipedia, so the other languages do not really matter much); 3)&nbsp;the fact that the output is so much readable to an English-speaking person; and 4)&nbsp;it can easily be decoded back to Cyrillics even despite some transcription elements.

::Please let me know if you wish to discuss this further. I am more than willing to. Take care,&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

:::It is not the question of what is commonly used, it is a question of what is correct, I mean the fact that Y is used instead of I whilst there is no ы sound in english at all is not my convention but then hey Galen was used up until 15th century before Versailles corrected him, so conventions make little difference to me, they will make even less difference to an English user, but the overwhelming preference to Y will, especially in since most of the sounds can be split easilly replaced by I. I mean compare Izmaylovsky Park to Izmailovskiy Park. You are saying that an english person will be fully alright and forgiven for saying ИзмаЫловскЫ Парк or Красн'йe Ворота. No wonder that so many foreigners can't pronounce and read Russian correctly. In addition what is Й in Russian? И-Краткое, ie ''I''-Short, so why use Y for it? [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 20:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Even among those who believe that Jesus existed, however, there are still numerous divisions over the historical accuracy of the canonical Gospels. Some say that the Gospel accounts are neither objective nor accurate, since they were written or compiled by his followers and seem to exclusively portray a positive, idealized view of Jesus. Those who have a naturalistic view of history do not believe in divine intervention or [[miracles]] such as the resurrection of Jesus mentioned by the Gospels. One method used to estimate the factual accuracy of stories in the gospels is what is known as the [[Criterion of Embarrassment]], which holds that stories about events with embarrassing aspects (such as the denial of Jesus by Peter) would likely not have been included if not true.

::::As far as "correct" goes, let me remind you that Wikipedia is not here to push correct spellings, but to represent common trends (I'll dig you a link to a specific policy, if you don't believe me). In that regards, "Kyiv" is also correct, and "Kiev"&mdash;incorrect, yet the article is at [[Kiev]] because that's what the majority of people uses. By your logic, the best way to handle Russian names is to provide phonetic transcription instead of transliteration. Surely IPA is more "correct" by your standards than any of the translit system I described above. But, transliteration, unlike transcription, renders the original name in letters the reader knows and in ways the reader can understand. Tell me, what makes ''Izmailovskiy Park'' superior to ''Izmaylovsky Park''? Following your example, it can just as easily be converted by an uninformed reader back to ''ИзмаИловскиЫ'', which is equally incorrect. Would you rather see ''Izmailovskii''? Same thing, it can be converted to ''ИзмаиловскиИ''&mdash;again, incorrect (and that is not to mention that we merely traded one ambiguity for another). What about ''Krasniye''? Why do you accept the possibility of it being read as ''КраснИе''? Face it, there is '''NO''' correct way to transliterate Russian, not if we accept your definition of "correct". In which case, why not stick with something that worked before, is working now, is not an artificial invention, and is accepted by the majority of people? I '''really''' want to hear what you have to say now.

::::As for the "y" being used to transliterate "й"&mdash;in modern English "y" is a consonant that sometimes acts as a vowel, which pretty much makes it a semi-vowel. "Й" is also a semi-vowel. To me, that's a perfect match. I'm sure that the authors of all major transliteration systems followed the same logic.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

On the other side of the coin, some scholars believe that Jesus has little or no historical basis. There are many similarities between stories about Jesus and contemporary myths of [[Paganism|Pagan]] godmen such as [[Mithras]], [[Apollo]], [[Attis]], [[Horus]] and [[Osiris-Dionysus]], leading to conjectures that the Pagan myths were adopted by some authors of early accounts of Jesus to form a [[syncretism]] with Christianity. Some Christian authors, such as [[C. S. Lewis]] and [[J. R. R. Tolkien]], believed that such myths were created by ancient Pagans with vague and imprecise knowledge of the Gospel. While these connections are disputed by many, it is nevertheless true that many elements of Jesus' story as told in the Gospels have parallels in Pagan mythology, where miracles such as [[virgin birth]] were not unknown.

:::::Kiev and Kyiv is more a question of familiarity and the comparison is more like Moscow and Moskva. I agree that it will be impossible to fully transliterate Russian into English (although it is possible to do it into Spanish and German where you have the J). In terms of pronounciaciaon of Izmailovskiy lets remeber that I in english is not limited to the и sound, in fact the sound can also be achieved in ee and ei and other examples, so why limit i to и, so why should it become in Russo-English translit. Moreover Измаиловский is actually not entirely incorrect (depending on which Russian accent you take). Anyway since "history" has made it that y represents Ы, then so be it, but representing other sounds, I can't see the disadvantage of not clarifying something like -ий with -iy. Finally I don't expect foreigners get the Ы sound at all, and most substitute with И anyway. I personally have herd them say Красние Ворота and I am alright with that but when they see something like Izmaylovsky Park most say Измаиловски Парк, I consider that to be a much more serious mistake than Красние Ворота, because this is not due to their mother tongue not having these sounds, but due to the transliteration that is given to them. Don't get me wrong I am against -ii and -yy to duplicate -ий and -ый. I thing that the former in particular should be differentiated from the latter by -iy and -yi or -yj respectivelly. Finally in relation to the Krasniye vorota. Note that the letter E has always been made very clear by (guess what) by using the Y, after a vowel it like in Alekseyevskaya and Belyayevo (I don't even want to imagine how many incorrect ways that can be pronounced), so how does Krasnye Vorota fits into this is the y used for the Ы or the E (and I'll finish with saying I have herd Красне Ворота before)[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Scholars such as [[A. N. Sherwin-White]], [[FF Bruce]], [[John Wenham]], [[Gary Habermas]] and others argue for a high degree of historical reliability of the key New Testament events or the New Testament as a whole (see: [[Resurrection of Jesus]] for details).[http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html] [http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocont.htm][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wenham][http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp?bodycontent=/articles/historical_apologetics/habermas-nt.html] Prominent liberal scholar [[John Robinson (1919-1983)|John A.T. Robinson]] argued for early dates of the entire New Testament and ascribed many of the key New Testament texts to their traditional authors. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robinson_%281919-1983%29]

::::::Using "-iy" to represent "-ий" (but not "-ый") is actually all right, even within current policy. In the end, this is the matter of personal taste. I personally like to use "y" anyway (for, you guessed right, consistency sake), but "-iy" has equal rights.

::::::As for "Krasnye Vorota", "ye" for "-ые" here is used for the same reason why "yy" is not used for "-ый", which is to avoid ugliness of double y. What's more, in these borderline cases "ye" is used more often than "yye" (see google, as well as the article on [[Naberezhnye Chelny]]). So basically to conform with policies we should either use "Krasnye" (because it's more common use) or "Krasnyye" (to stick with the translit guidelines; also note that Encarta uses this convention). "Krasniye" may seem as a good idea, but, as I mentioned above, such variant is not used by any major transliteration system, and Wikipedia should mirror common knowledge/use (to the point where it does not contradict the facts, of course) instead of inventing new conventions. Again, the final variant boils to the personal preference. As for foreigners pronouncing stuff incorrectly&mdash;well, they are foreigners, they would pronounce things incorrectly and/or with accent even if transliteration were perfect.

::::::Anyway, I will try to compile a list of most common objections to and questions about [[Transliteration of Russian into English|current Wikipedia transliteraton system]]. I should have probably done it long ago, because having the same conversation over and over, only with different people every time, is really a chore. If you want to suggest any objections/questions for such a list, feel free to drop me a note or just continue commenting here. Thanks.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 02:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

== NamesUlitsa and1905 Goda titles==

{{main|Names and titles of Jesus}}

I think Ulitsa Tysyacha Devyatsot Pyatogo (1905) Goda should be shortened to Ulitsa 1905 Goda since "Ulitsa Tysyacha Devyatsot Pyatogo (1905) Goda" is rather long for an article title and makes the TKL template uncomfortably wide. I don't see any advantage to spelling out 1905, especially since "Ulitsa 1905 Goda" is the spelling commonly used elsewhere, including Metro signs. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 01:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

''Jesus'' is derived from the [[History of the Greek language|Koine Greek]] ''Ιησους'' (''Iēsoûs'') via [[Latin]] ''Iesus'' (a ''u''-stem, see [[Jesu]]). The earliest uses of ''Iēsoûs'' are found in the writings of [[Philo of Alexandria]], [[Josephus]], and the [[Septuagint]], as a [[transliterate|transliteration]] of the [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]] name ''Yehoshua'' (יהושע&mdash;known in English as [[Joshua]] when transliterated directly from [[Hebrew alphabet|Hebrew]]), and also ''[[Yeshua]]'' (ישוע). Jesus' original name is not reported by contemporary or near-contemporary sources, but modern scholars have suggested that Jesus' name was the [[Aramaic]] ישׁוע / ''Yēšûa&#703;'' (as in the [[Syriac]] New Testament) a shortened form of Yehoshua used in [[Book of Ezra|Ezra]], [[Book of Nehemiah|Nehemiah]] and [[Book of Chronicles|Chronicles]]), which was a fairly common name at the time. Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, mentions no fewer than nineteen different people with this name, about half of them contemporaries of Jesus of Nazareth. Other Aramaic forms of the name include '''Yeshu`''', '''Ishu`''', and '''Eshu`'''. His [[patronymic]] would have been, ''bar Yosef'', for "son of Joseph".

:But not how its pronounced in the loudspeakers, anyway I don't really mind, but certainly spell it fully out on the article.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 08:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Some scholars speculate that Jesus was also known as "Bar Abba" ("Son of the Father") because many times in the Gospels he addressed God as "Father". The Aramaic word for "father" (''[[Aramaic of Jesus#Abba|Abba]]'') survives still untranslated in Mark 14:36. Such speculations are largely in connection with further theories concerning [[Barabbas]].

::Thanks, the template looks a lot better. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 02:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

The [[Arabic language|Arabic]] form of the name used by Christians, following [[Syriac language|Syriac]], is '''Yasu`'''. Muslims, following [[Qur'an]]ic usage, refer to him by the name '''`[[Isa]]''' (possibly cognate with the Hebrew name [[Esau]]).

==Volyn Crop and [[Holodomor]]==

''[[Christ]]'' is not a name but a title, which comes from the [[Ancient Greek language|Greek]] ''Χριστός'' (''Christos'') via [[Latin]], meaning ''[[Anointing|anointed]] with [[Chrismation|chrism]]''. The title ''Christ'' is also sometimes identified with the Greek ''chrestos'', meaning "good", although the words are unrelated in terms of [[etymology]], and ''Chrestus'' was often used as a pet name for slaves. Christos or Charis (from charisma) is also believe to refer to the baptism in the Holy Spirit in which the third member of the trinity literally pours down from heaven into the anointed one (illustrated best by the example of a thundering waterfall pouring down into the pool below) and bursts forth outwards like a "river" or, as Christians believe, "rivers of living water".

Hi Kazak, that's an interesting point that you're rising. I think the good places to check for this would be [http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=43 National Archives] or [http://www.aan.gov.pl/index2.htm The New Archives] (but the latter don't seem to have an English version online) or maybe [http://www.stat.gov.pl/english/index.htm Central Statistical Office]. Your question seems intriguing and I'll try to investigate it but it's going to take some time, as I'm rather busy these days. Also, we have to remeber that wikipedia is not a place for original research, so we should be rather basing on other authors' works. As far as I know there's been no famine in the 1930-s in Western Ukraine, so that would seem to confirm that the famine in Eastern Ukraine at that time had to be politically driven rather than a natural disaster. As for neutral historians (that is not Polish/Russian/Ukrainian), I've checked that Norman Davies in his "God's Playground" writes that Ukrainians in Poland at that time were horrified at their neighbours across the border starving to death. This would also confirm that it was not a natural famine, but one that was artificially made. Cheers for now. --[[User:Wojsyl|Wojsyl]] ^{([[User talk:Wojsyl|talk]])} 10:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The Greek form is a liberal translation of ''Messiah'' from Hebrew ''mashiach'' (משיח) or Aramaic ''m'shikha'' (משיחא), a word which occurs often in the [[Hebrew Bible]] and typically refers to the "high priest" or "[[Monarch|king]]". The word ''mashiach'' in Hebrew means anointed (a cognate in English is "massage," from the Arabic for "vigorous rubbing with aromatic oils"), because the [[Israelite]] kings were anointed with oil. The title does not imply, either in Greek or in Hebrew, a divine nature for the possessor of it. In fact, it would seem ''[[prima facie]]'' that an inherently divine being would not be in need of being anointed. Some charismatic protestants however, believe that this anointing refers to the decending of the Holy Spirit on Jesus during His baptism (in the river by John) in the form of a dove which they believe to symbolize the 'filling' or 'anointing' by the Holy Spirit that ordains or defines that He is indeed the son of God.

== Congratulations! ==

The Gospels record Jesus referring to himself as ''[[Son of Man]]'', ''[[Son of God]]'', and also stating: "I and the Father [God] are One" (John 10:30), "before Abraham was born, I am" (John 8:58), and similarly: "Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed" (John 17:5).

Just want to congratulate you and your wife [[User:Alex Bakharev|abakharev]] 08:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Some scholars have argued that ''Son of Man'' was an expression that functioned as an indirect first person pronoun, and that ''Son of God'' was an expression that signified "a righteous person". Evidence for these positions is provided by similar use by persons other than Jesus at a similar time to the writing of the Gospels, such as Jewish priests and judges.

::Thank you. Summer 2006. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

In the Gospels, Jesus has many other titles, including [[Prophet]] (a title that he applied to himself, unlike others), [[Lord]], [[INRI|King of the Jews]], and [[Aramaic of Jesus#Rabboni|Rabboni]]. Together, the majority of Christians understand these titles as attesting to Jesus' divinity. Some historians argue that when used in other Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the time, these titles have other meanings, and therefore may have other meanings when used in the Gospels as well.

== Architects ==

The title Jesus ''the Nazarene'' may be a reference to a place of origin called Nazareth, or to a Jewish sect called the [[Nazarene|Nazarenes]]. It is often translated ''Jesus of Nazareth'' to support the former hypothesis. Christians however, believe that "Nazareth" refers to the town in Biblical Israel where Jesus is believed to have grown up in.

== Architects' initials ==

[[Raymond E. Brown]], in his ''An Introduction to New Testament Christology'', Appendix III, p.189, wrote: "[i]n three reasonably clear instances in the NT [Heb 1:8&ndash;9; Jn 1:1, Jn 20:28] and in five instances that have probability, Jesus is called God. The use of ''God'' for Jesus that is attested in the early 2nd-century [ [[Pliny the Younger]] ''Letter 10.96''] was a continuation of a usage that had begun in NT times. There is no reason to be surprised at this. ''Jesus is Lord'' was evidently a popular confessional formula in NT times, and in this formula Christians gave Jesus the title ''kyrios'' [Greek for Lord] which was the [[Septuagint]] translation for [[YHWH]]. If Jesus could be given this title, why could he not be called ''God'' (theos), which the Septuagint often used to translate [[Elohim]]? The two Hebrew terms had become relatively interchangeable, and indeed YHWH was the more sacred term." The theory that Jesus and God were indeed one and the same (the idea of the Holy Trinity and that Jesus was the son of God) is supported only by Jesus' claim to be the Lord that Isaiah 61 speaks of.

What exactly is the problem with giving the initials of the Moscow Metro architects? [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 01:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

==Artistic and dramatic portrayals==

:I hope Kazak does not mind me answering this question for him (since it was me bugging him about it in the first place). Actually, there is really no problem. It is just preferable to give full names, if they are known. If they are not known, then, of course, initials are better than nothing, but in that case the names should probably not be wikilinked.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

{{main2|Dramatic portrayals of Jesus|Images of Jesus}}

::I suggest we leave it as surnames alone, and besides official names of Russians are never given (in Wikipedia) with their (son of ) "middle" name. So if giving initials, then just the first name.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 08:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

[[Image:The-passion-of-the-christ.jpg|thumb|left|175px|[[Mel Gibson]]'s ''[[The Passion of the Christ]]'' ([[2004]]) sparked controversy with its depiction of Jesus' crucifixion.]]

==RfAr==

Jesus has been portrayed in countless [[painting]]s and [[sculpture]]s for two thousand years, particularly throughout the [[Middle Ages]]. Often he is portrayed as looking like a male from the region of the artist creating the portrait; some African-Americans, for example, portray Jesus as being of African descent. However, the most common depiction of Jesus in the Western world is as a [[Caucasian]] due to the predominance of Christianity in Europe, and some portrayals that do not agree with this common conception of him have been sources of controversy (see [[Race of Jesus]]). Most of the early artifacts show Jesus as clean shaven. His hair is often long, however, this is probably a result of the mistaken belief that Jesus had taken life-long Nazarite vows, which included not cutting your hair (Samson being the most famous example of life long Nazarite).

An [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Community vs. User:AndriyK|arbitration request]] against [[User:AndriyK]] has been filed. If you intend to participate/co-sign, please add your name to the "Involved parties" section and write a statement.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

== Question ==

Jesus has been featured in many films and media forms, sometimes seriously, and other times [[satire|satirically]]. The British musical stage play ''[[Jerry Springer - The Opera]]'' is a notable recent example of the latter. Many of these portrayals have attracted controversy, both ones that were intended to be based on genuine Biblical accounts (such as [[Mel Gibson]]'s [[2004]] film ''[[The Passion of the Christ]]'' and [[Pier Pasolini]]'s ''[[The Gospel According to St. Matthew]]'') and ones based on alternative interpretations (such as [[Martin Scorsese]]'s ''[[The Last Temptation of Christ]]''). Other portrayals have attracted less controversy, such as the television [[miniseries]] ''[[Jesus of Nazareth (movie)|Jesus of Nazareth]]'' by [[Franco Zeffirelli]]. Another common method is bringing Jesus' story into the present day (such as in ''[[Jesus of Montreal]]'') or imagining his Second Coming (e.g., in ''[[The Seventh Sign]]''). In other films Jesus himself is a minor character, used to develop the overall themes or to provide context. For example, in ''[[Ben-Hur (1959 film)|Ben-Hur]]'' and ''[[The Life of Brian]]'', Jesus only appears in a few scenes.

Are Kuban kazaks Russians, Ukrainians or Kazaks?

In music, many [[List of songs which refer to Jesus|songs refer to Jesus]], and Jesus provides the theme for many classical works throughout [[music history|musical history]].

IMO it is Russian sub-ethnical group.

RGRDS

[[User:Ben-Velvel|Ben-Velvel]] 14:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

We are Cossacks. Кубанские Казаки. Checl 2002 census.

In literature, Yeshua, the most common reconstruction of Jesus' name, is a character in the fantasy novel ''[[The Master and Margarita]]'' by [[20th century]] [[Russia]]n writer [[Mikhail Bulgakov]] and in the [[science fiction]] short novel ''[[Riverworld]]'' by the 20th-century [[United States|American]] writer [[Philip Jose Farmer]]. The portrayal in these two works is so similar that Farmer's narrative can easily be read as a sequel to Bulgakov's.

My opinion: the followng people Velikorossians, Malorossians, Belorossians, Pomorians, Carpathian Ruthenians and Cossacks are just the different variations of the Russian slavic group. The fact that in 1917 the term Russian was privatised to the Velikorossians is the source of confusion. Cossacks in the 1926 census could not decide where they belong and as they are neither Veliko or Malorossians, culturally and ethnically. Most of the Cossacks by default were turned into Russians (Don, Terek, Ural etc). With us Kubanese when faced with question Russian and Ukranians they would have digested it as Veliko or Malorossians? Well we are neither and there are countless ethnographical accounts which say that Cossacks are a subgroup and do not belong to either side of the eastern slavic branches. In 1926 they would have said we are Cossacks, the census people after their failed attempt to lingustically destinguish the population simply split them, 50:50 and called for further research. Thereby the census itself concludes that the data is provisionary. The fact that US government can't understand that is not surprising, I mean there is a destinct percentage of the US population that thinks in our country winter is all year round and bears walk on our streets.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 17:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

A [[mystical]] version of Jesus as the [[Eternal Holy Child]] appears in the story ''[[The Selfish Giant]]'' by [[Oscar Wilde]]. Also, the Portuguese [[Nobel Prize]] winner [[José Saramago]] wrote his novel ''[[The Gospel According to Jesus Christ]]'' (ISBN 0151367000) based on his [[atheism|atheist]] view of Jesus and the Gospels.

What an original point of view! I must write it down. It can be used as smart joke. Especialy this part: "...Carpathian Ruthenians... variation of Rissian slavic group..." LOL!!! Did you tell them already? I think you should, Kazak - they struggle to find identity for a long time already.--[[User:Oleh Petriv|Oleh Petriv]] 02:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

==Interpretations of Jesus by influential leaders==

{{commons|Jesus}}

{{wikiquote}}

*[[Paul of Tarsus]] (3&ndash;67), [[Apostle]] and writer of much of the [[New Testament]]

*[[Marcion]] (ca.110&ndash;160), called "most dangerous" heretic

*[[Augustine of Hippo]] (354&ndash;430), [[Catholic]] [[Doctor of the Church]]

*[[Francis of Assisi]] (1181&ndash;1226), [[Catholic]] [[Monk]]

*[[Thomas Aquinas]] (1225&ndash;1274), [[Catholic]] [[Doctor of the Church]]

*[[Martin Luther]] (1486&ndash;1546), German theologian [[Lutheran]]

*[[John Calvin]] (1509&ndash;1564), French theologian [[Calvinism]]

*[[Thomas Jefferson]] (1743&ndash;1826), [[Jefferson Bible]]

*[[Albert Schweitzer]] (1875&ndash;1965), ''Quest for the Historical Jesus''

*[[C. S. Lewis]] (1898&ndash;1963), Christian [[Christian apologetics|apologist]]

*[[F.F. Bruce]] (1910&ndash;1990), British [[evangelicalism|Evangelical]] scholar

*[[Raymond E. Brown]] (1928&ndash;1998), [[Union Theological Seminary]] Professor Emeritus, ''Does the New Testament call Jesus God?'', Theological Studies #26, 1965, pp. 545&ndash;73

*[[Hyam Maccoby]] (1924&ndash;2004), British scholar

*[[Geza Vermes]], [[Oxford University]] Professor of Jewish Studies

*[[Jacob Neusner]], scholar of [[Judaism]], author of ''A Rabbi talks with Jesus''

*[[E. P. Sanders]], [[Duke University]] Professor of Religion

*[[James D. G. Dunn]], [[Durham University]] Emeritus Lightfoot Professor of Divinity

*[[John Dominic Crossan]], retired former [[DePaul University]] Professor of Biblical Studies

*[[Marcus Borg]], [[Oregon State University]] Hundere Distinguished Professor of Religion and Culture

*[[Tom Wright]], [[Anglican]] [[Bishop of Durham]]

*[[Josh McDowell]], proponent of [[Trilemma]] of [[C. S. Lewis]]: Jesus is either "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord"

*[[Left Behind]] popular [[End Times]] books on Apocalyptic Jesus: "It was as if the very words of the Lord had superheated their blood, causing it to burst through their veins and skin."

*''[[The Master and Margarita]]'', by [[Mikhail Bulgakov]].

==Notes Dnipro ==

Kazak, I would gladly take into account your suggestions, but unfortunately I have low credibility in them. Even if I'm only few days here, on English Wikipedia, I have formed my opinion already on your style of writing and changes as well as couple of other "brothers" like Ghirlandajo. Sorry for being so direct. I will talk over the issue about names with Irpen. He seems to be reasonable person. And don't worry too much about poor Anglophones. In this case this excuse in nothing more than a way to promote or pro-Russian point of view.--[[User:Oleh Petriv|Oleh Petriv]] 01:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

# {{note|ScholarlyViewOnExistenceOfJesus}} [[Christopher Price]], [http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm "Scholarly opinions on the Jesus Myth"], ''Bede's Library''. Accessed October 25, 2005.

# {{note|VoorwindeCanon}} [[Stephen Voorwinde]], [http://www.pastornet.net.au/rtc/canon.htm "The formation of the New Testament"], ''Patornet''. Accessed October 25, 2005.

# {{note|FFBruceCanon}} [[F. F. Bruce]], ''New Testament Documents: Are they reliable?'', [http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/ffbruce/ntdocrli/ntdocc03.htm "Chapter 3: The Canon of the New Testament"] (June, 1982), ISBN 087784691X, ''[[Inter-Varsity Press]]''.

# {{note|KeatingCanon}} [[Coey Keating]] (December 11, 2005), [http://www.ntgreek.org/SeminaryPapers/ChurchHistory/Criteria%20for%20Development%20of%20the%20NT%20Canon%20in%20First%20Four%20Centuries.pdf "Criteria for development of the New Testament canon in the first four centuries of the Christian Church"], ''[[Fuller Theological Seminary]]''.

#{{note|MetzgerNTCanon}} [[Bruce Metzger]] (1987), ''The New Testament Canon'', page 254.

#{{note|JewishEncyclopedia}} [http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=177&letter=P&search=pentecost Jewish Encyclopedia on Pentecost]

#{{note|EPSaunders}}[[E. P. Sanders]] in ''Jesus and Judaism'', pp.264-269, states: "I am one of a growing number of scholars who doubt that there were any substantial points of opposition between Jesus and the Pharisees ... We find no criticism of the law which would allow us to speak of his opposing or rejecting it."

#{{note|Farrar}}[[Frederic W. Farrar]] in ''Christ in Art'' (1894) collects all these descriptions. pp. 67-85. [http://www.cwru.edu/edocs/8%2F221.pdf PDF of Farrar's book]. The descriptions are also collected in other sources: [http://www.thenazareneway.com/likeness_of_our_saviour.htm The Nazarene Way: Likeness of our saviour].

==See also==

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*'''General Topics'''

**[[Anno Domini]] and [[Common Era]] (which show how Jesus' birth has influenced the modern day calendar)

**[[Comparative religion]], and its sub-school, [[Comparative mythology]], studies, among other things, the similarities between Jesus and the heroes found in traditions other than Christianity.

**[[List of books about Jesus]]

*'''Jesus and History'''

**[[Genealogy of Jesus]]

**[[Historical Jesus]]

*'''Environment of Jesus'''

**[[Cultural and historical background of Jesus|Cultural background of Jesus]]

**[[Race of Jesus]]

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*'''New Testament Jesus'''

**[[Miracles of Jesus]]

**[[Resurrection of Jesus]]

**[[Sermon on the Mount]]

*'''Views on Jesus'''

**[[Religious perspectives on Jesus]]

**[[Isa]] — Jesus in Islam

**[[Pauline Christianity]]

**[[Apocrypha]], [[Christian mythology]] and [[Folk Christianity]] include many stories about Jesus besides those in the Bible.

**[[Christadelphians]] — a distinctive non-trinitarian view of Jesus that arose in the 19th century.

**[[Hildegard of Bingen]] — The revelations about Jesus Christ in the mystical writings of this 12th century Benedictine nun.

*'''Lists of related topics'''

**[[List of founders of major religions]]

**[[List of people believing themselves deities]]

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==External links==

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===Religious views===

* [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm Jesus Christ Catholic Encyclopedia article]

* [http://www.LatinVulgate.com/christverse.aspx Complete Sayings of Jesus Christ] - The complete sayings of Jesus Christ in parallel English and Latin

* [http://www.islamfrominside.com/Pages/Articles/Jesus%20-%20An%20Islamic%20Perspective.html An Islamic perspective on Jesus]

* [http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/11/15/article_02.htm Jehovah's Witnesses' perspective]

* [http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,810-1,00.html Latter-day Saint (Mormon) beliefs about Jesus]

* [http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1988.htm/ensign%20november%201988.htm/what%20think%20ye%20of%20christ.htm What think ye of Christ?] (Mormon)

* [http://www.uua.org/pamphlet/3040.html Unitarian Universalist Views of Jesus]: prophet; dissident; one of many Christs

* [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/mead.htm Jesus in the Jewish tradition]

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===Historical and skeptical views===

* [http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/jesus.htm Overview of the Life of Jesus] A summary of New Testament accounts.

* [http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/ From Jesus to Christ] -- A [[Frontline (PBS TV series)|Frontline]] documentary on Jesus and early Christianity.

* [http://www.Jesus-Institute.org The Words and Life of Historical Jesus] by Jesus Institute

* [http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/index.html The Jewish Roman World of Jesus]

* [http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/oct1993/v50-3-article8.htm Historical context of Jesus' time]

* [http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/mine/jesus.htm Jewish sects during Jesus' time]

* [http://www.vatican.va/jubilee_2000/magazine/documents/ju_mag_01031997_p-29_en.html Christ and the Other Religions]

* [http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/jhcjp.htm The Jesus Puzzle]

* [http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/jesus.html Skeptic's Guide to Jesus]

* [http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/jesus.htm Who Was the Real Jesus?] Seemingly unique compilation from a theosophical point of view.

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{{Apostles}}

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