Wikipedia

List of minor characters in Dilbert and User talk:Kuban kazak: Difference between pages

(Difference between pages)
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Added Alice's superpower thing.
 
Bryndza (talk | contribs)
953 edits
 
Line 1:
This is a list of characters from the [[comic strip]] [[Dilbert]].
 
==Dilbert Kharkiv ==
[[Image:Dilbert_icon.gif|right]]
'''Dilbert''' is the main character in the comic strip. He graduated from the [[Massachusetts Institute of Technology]] with an Electrical Engineering diploma and is an engineer. Although his ideas are typically sensible and revolutionary, they are seldom carried out because of his powerlessness. He is easily frustrated by the incompetence of his [[coworker]]s <!-- yes, "cow-orker"; see talk: and the cow-orker article --> — most often the [[#Pointy-Haired Boss|Pointy-Haired Boss]] — and is often [[sarcastic]] and snide. He is usually single as a result of his poor social skills.
 
Hey Kuban kazak. The use of ''[[Kharkiv]]'' vs. ''Kharkov'' has been discussed at length and the current form is the result of the consensus several editors. Please consult [[talk:Kharkiv]] and its archive, and discuss there if you want to propose such a change. Cheers, ''[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-10-15&nbsp;23:17&nbsp;Z</small>''
Dilbert usually has no visible [[mouth]] or [[eye]]s, and in all but the early strips his [[necktie|tie]] usually curves upward. While Adams has offered no definitive explanation for this, he has explained the tie at least as a further example of Dilbert's lack of power over his environment. A second explanation given by Adams in the Dilbert FAQ is that ''he is just glad to see you''. Adams has also hinted that the tie may be displaying an aversion to him. In more recent strips the mouth has been drawn on many occasions when Dilbert is eating, surprised, furious, or nervous, and in the TV series his mouth is drawn when he is speaking. Many of the other "-berts" look very much like he does, with glasses and no mouth (with the exception of Ratbert).
 
==DogbertMoscow Metro==
Hi there, kazak! I noticed that you put the apostrophes back in the names of some of the Moscow Metro stations. Just wanted to let you know that English Wikipedia traditionally utilizes Russian transliteration guidelines outlined [[Transliteration of Russian into English|here]]. While it is generally understood that there is no single transliteration system used by everyone, it had been decided that the usage of one system greatly helps maintain the consistency of the articles. At this time, most articles dealing with Russia-related topics use that transliteration system (which omits apostrophes used for soft and hard signs). You may also want to check out [[Portal:Russia/New article announcements|this announcement board]] (just do an in-page search for "metro" to find relevant announcements) for more information specifically regarding the naming of Moscow Metro stations. By all means do not hesitate to contact me if you have questions. Best,&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:36, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Dogbert_icon.gif|right]]
Although he is Dilbert's pet dog, '''Dogbert''' rarely acts like a pet. He is a [[megalomania]]c and one of his dreams is to [[Global domination|conquer the world]] and enslave all humans, and he has achieved this status several times through methods such as [[hypnosis]] and masquerading. However, he often quickly relinquishes his post due to boredom, someone foiling his chance, his conviction that people do not deserve to have him as leader due to the ongoing peace that results, or his desire to go nap on a soft pillow.
 
==Welcome==
Despite this dislike for humans, he is known to protect and help Dilbert when he falls victim to sinister motives. For example, he has saved him from Mr. Tidy, the robber-disguised-as-a-cleaning-man, by having the dinosaurs flush Mr. Tidy down the toilet, and rescued Dilbert from the [[troll]]s in [[accounting]] several times.
Just to say Welcome! I'm glad we now have a Cossack on Wikipedia :) [[User:Nikola Smolenski|Nikola]] 18:13, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
 
==Transliteration==
Dogbert has made many ventures into the business world, often as a [[consultant]] who hypes new trends to the Pointy-Haired Boss. In these positions, he typically takes advantage of [[stupidity]] and gullibility. For instance, when hired as a consultant to create a new company [[logo]], Dogbert proposed using a piece of paper with a circular stain from his coffee cup as the ''Brown Ring of Quality'', and then charged a large consultancy fee. (The ring may have borne a certain sneaky similarity to the [[Lucent]] logo.)
The point of transliteration is to enable English speakers to be able to pronounce these Russian names in the correct fashion. The reason Y is used to represent Ы, Й, -ий, -ый is that it is the closest English letter to those sounds. I understand your objection to using the "ai" sound to represent all these letters, which would be incorrect, but you have to understand that most of the time Y is not pronounced "ai" in English. It can also be pronounced "i" as in "system" and "ee" as in "fiery," not to mention the Y consonant sound.
 
A native English speaker will pronounce "Leninsky Prospekt" and "Leninskiy Prospekt" the same, and he or she would never say "LeninskAI Prospekt." Using "iy" as opposed to "y" does not change the way the word is pronounced, and "iy" is an unfamiliar letter combination in English that readers may not know how to pronounce.
An [[alter-ego]] of Dogbert is Saint Dogbert, the patron saint of [[technology]], and Dogbert's [[religion|religious]] form. Dogbert created this form as a method to eliminate the "demons of stupidity", a group that includes "[[buzzword]]-spewers", "clueless morons" and "people who press an extra button to do the job" (Ctrl-Alt-F4-Del, instead of [[Control-Alt-Delete|Ctrl-Alt-Del]], the [[soft reboot]], for example). Saint Dogbert wears a [[miter]] and carries a scepter in his left paw. His right paw heals broken technology, and the scepter exorcises the "demons of stupidity."
 
Using a J to represent the consonant Y sound is even more ridiculous. J ''never'' makes a Y sound in English. An English reader confronted with a word like "Oktjabrskaja" will have no idea how to pronounce it, and if they attempt to say it they will almost certainly be wrong. The spelling "Oktyabrskaya," which correctly uses the letter Y to represent the Y consonant sound, will be pronounced correctly by an English speaker.
Another alter-ego is Nostradogbert, a parody of [[Nostradamus]]. Here, he is a psychic, albeit an evil one. For example, he created a chain e-mail curse that, if read and sent to others, would turn both the reader and sender into a dog, but if that letter wasn't read, the person would die (most people chose the curse over death). His [[nemesis]] is [[John Stossel]].
 
As to your other objections, in English "north-south" does not imply that the street (or avenue) runs from the north TO the south, it just means the street's alignment is along the north-south axis as opposed to the east-west axis. Removing Profsoyuznaya from the list was an accident. Regarding your request for British spelling, by Wikipedia convention either spelling is appropriate.
There was a series of unaired strips Scott Adams made that involved Dogbert having a rival, Bingo. But, Adams never aired the strips for he didn't want it to become a "cartoonist cartoon". The "Origin Strips" can be found [http://www.comics.com/comics/dilbert/news_and_history/html/dogbert_origin_strips.html here].
 
I appreciate your work on the rolling stock, extensions, and correction to the plans of Park Pobedy and Izmaylovsky Park. I did not realize that they were done by you because you were listed as an IP address.
Before the strip was syndicated, Dogbert's name was "Dildog". Editors noted that any printing error obliterating the ''g'' in that name would [[dildo|wreak havoc]], and the name was changed to Dogbert.
 
[[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 13:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
He often walks in the park with Dilbert, generally stealing the girls Dilbert is trying to attract.
 
Fair enough. I still don't understand the advantage of using -iy instead of -y, but if that's what you want to use I'm fine with it. I'm glad you figured out how to move the pages without creating duplicate articles. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 21:00, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
==Ratbert==
:Pardon me for intervening, but I would like to note that Wikipedia transliteration system is not a matter of someone's personal preference. Using "ja" is definitily not incorrect, but "ya" is also by no means not incorrect&mdash;these are merely conventions of two different transliteration systems (which, I repeat, are both "correct", but used for different purposes). The WP transliteration system was devised to maintain consistency&mdash;any other system could have certainly been used with the same effect (be it ISO-9, straight BCGN/PGN, or Russian GOST). [[Transliteration of Russian into English|Current system]] has been selected as the best for transliterating Russian into '''English'''; it is not merely a generic system, but one that targets the needs of English-speaking readers and is, as such, more common in English media/texts. I would recommend that you adjust your transliteration habits when dealing with the English WP articles. Using just one system benefits English WP greatly, and, since the tradition is pretty much set, I suggest you accept it. Just imagine that suddenly your system is adopted just as widely as the current one is&mdash;how would you deal with someone who comes in in half a year and insists that ISO-9 is the only way to go? Hope for your understanding, and keep up your otherwise great work. Feel free to drop me a line if you have questions or comments. Cheers,&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Ratbert_icon.gif|right]]
'''Ratbert''' (or to his scientist master in the early scripts, '''XP-39C&sup2;''') was not originally intended to be a regular, instead being part of a series of strips featuring a lab scientist's cruel experiments. Ratbert soon realized that he was the subject of a hideous [[macaroni and cheese]] experiment (the scientist made him eat huge amounts of it; he writes in his notebook that it causes [[paranoia]] in rats) and escaped, eventually finding a refuge in Dilbert's house. He was not initially accepted by the residents, especially Dilbert, who was highly prejudiced and [[closed-minded]] against rats. However, he finally allowed Ratbert to become a permanent member of the household.
 
==Ukraine==
As a simple rat, and having been specially bred to be susceptible to peer pressure, Ratbert is very gullible and innocent, although optimistic. Sometimes, his actions can become quite annoying. Like Dogbert, he has made inroads into business, once working as an [[intern]], a [[concierge]], a consultant (with an external brain-pack tied to his torso) and vice-president of [[marketing]]. He also became [[CEO]] after a cause-and-effect series of strips that involved the previous CEO jumping into a [[volcano]]. He was fired for [[varnish]]ing employees.
Hi, Kuban Kazak, and welcome again. I just thought I stop by and request that you use some extra caution in UA-RU controvercial issues. It is easy to make others lose their temper and extra care is warranted. Since you seem interested in religeous affairs of Ukraine, you may take a look at [[Patriarch Filaret (Mykhailo Denysenko)]] article and click on the links. Hopefully, you will help to improve Ukrainian topics and avoid the edit wars. Thanks, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 16:17, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
:Sorry about that, got carried away... anyway thanks for watering down the version, I suppose that that is any wikipedia's responsibility...I also wish for your help on the Kiev Metro section (photographs, we need photographs there). Actually I want to make a portal about all the metro systems of the former Ussr and hope for your help. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 14:54, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your work on expansion of [[Kiev Metro]] coverage. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 05:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 
==Russian portal==
Ratbert's biggest ambition in life is to become loved and accepted. He tries to impress those he considers his friends on various occasions, and nearly always fails miserably. Just like Dogbert protects Dilbert on numerous occasions despite his contempt for him, so do Ratbert's friends and family. Ratbert is also good friends with the garbage man, who tries&mdash;and fails&mdash;to enlighten Ratbert on the complexities of the universe.
Dear colleague, it would have been nice of you to announce newly created articles [[Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Russia/New_article_announcements|here]]. Thanks. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 13:34, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
:And also [[Wikipedia:Wikiportal/Ukraine/New_article_announcements|here]]. I will try to help with what I can with metro. BTW, IMO we should probably use modern Ukrainian names for most, if not all, stations/lines in [[Kiev Metro]]. Thanks for your interest. Feel free to contact me if you have any questions. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 20:28, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
==St. Volodymyr's==
See [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Repeated_wholesale_removal_of_info_from_St._Volodymyr.27s_Cathedral]]. Feel free to comment. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
: Oh I commeted alright, one thing is to argue a POV, another thing is to descredit a POV and delete whole sections, Варварство причем варварство в самом прямом смысле.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 13:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 
What a mess!!! I hope this would be soon put to an end. I haven't realized that you were writing to AndriyK at the same time as I was writing to him. I corrected the title of your section at his talk. I hope it is OK with you. Please send me your email address if you don't mind --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 21:52, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
==Catbert==
:And sorry, I could not yet get to your Metro articles. You obviously see the reasons. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 22:40, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Catbert_icon.gif|right]]
::Опыт говорит что правокаторы приходят и уходят, а метро уже 70, 50, 45 лет в Мск, СПб и Киеве соответственно. Сейчас выметем мусор а потом делом займемся.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
As with Ratbert, '''Catbert''' was not a planned regular. In this case, he was introduced for a series involving an attack on Ratbert, who was acting as an optimist. When the two got home (and after Bob shows his stupidity by stomping on Ratbert's head instead of Catbert), Catbert rebooted Dilbert's computer. Dogbert eventually forced him to leave.
 
Hi, please do not get mad that I removed your entry from St Volodymyr's talk. Let's not get people crazy when we are approaching a difficult compromise there. I wholeheartedly share your desire for Ukraine to finally get a single canonical local Church which I would prefer to see [[autocephalous]]. I just thought the article you linked will start another barrage of flames. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 21:56, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
Readers of ''Dilbert'' enjoyed the character so much that they spontaneously named him "Catbert", encouraging Adams to bring him back. He was reintroduced as the "evil director" of human resources, and in a [[parody]] of typical [[cat]] behavior he "plays" with his "prey", coming up with sadistic and illogical policies to enforce on the employees. He often works in tandem with the PHB.
 
==[[Wikipedia:Naming conventions/Geographic names]]==
Catbert officially entered the strip in [[March 1995]], when Dogbert hired him to the company to handle "the downsizing". Indeed, downsizing is Catbert's greatest joy, and he has numerous binders on this subject (and one that says, "hire losers").
Another thing, I think there is quiet a good discussion with an excellent proposal being hammered out by several users at [[Wikipedia:Naming_conventions/Geographic_names]]. The latest version is very close to what I would like to see as a Wikipedia policy and, if implemented, it would also help to quickly put an end to certain behaviours of certain users if you know what I mean. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Wikipedia is not a "Russian Orthodox Encyclopaedia" ==
==Pointy-Haired Boss==
[[Image:The_boss_icon.gif|right]]
The '''[[Pointy Haired Boss]]''' (often abbreviated to just "PHB") is notable for his gross incompetence and unawareness of his surroundings, yet still retaining power in the workplace. In the ''Dilbert'' TV series, he was notably smarter and more actively evil.
 
Please stop pushing Russian Orthodox POV to the articles. Please pay attention that ''canonicity''
The PHB's real name is not known, although in one episode of the TV series (The Return) he signs for a package using his [[line dancing]] [[pseudonym]], "Eunice". Later on in that episode, he has two other aliases, which are posted on the "Most Wanted" board in the post office (yet he thinks that is because they like him). Adams has said that this is because it is easier to imagine the PHB as one's own boss when he is not given a name.
*is viewed somewhat differently by Orthodox and Catholic Churches;
*is not recognized by Protestant Churches;
*is not recognized by most of people in the wold that are not Cristian at all.
 
Please read [[WP:NPOV]] carefully.
The Pointy Haired Boss is mostly bald, except for a fringe of hair across the back of the head, and sideburns that rise up in points. Scott Adams has admitted that the Boss's odd hair was inspired by devil horns. He used to have [[jowls]] at first because Scott wanted the character to look gruff, but the boss ended up looking dumb instead.
::''NPOV policy often means presenting multiple points of view.''
 
Please pay attention that pushing Orthodox POV is against the WP policies.--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 21:00, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
In early strips, when he was simply "balding", the Boss was very cruel and uncaring (shocking people with [[electricity|electric]] belts or wanting them to work 178 hours a week, although there are only 168 hours in a week &mdash; he expected the employees' families to contribute a few hours). However, when the hair reached its current state of outright pointiness, he became a complete imbecile. The Boss is childish, immature, ignorant, and rude, yet also annoyingly cheerful and oblivious to his own actions.
 
:The original article said something along the lines of "a church viewed uncannonical by the Orthodox Communion" i.e. Protestant, Catholics and other religions have nothing to do with this article. The church is NOT recognignised by other Orthodox Churches which happen to have cannonical standing. It is you who needs to pay attention and not omitt these facts, same NPOV argument my ''Drug'' [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:22, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
The boss made his most significant change in appearance during one month in the fall of [[1991]]. The last confirmed sighting of the jowly boss was in the strip dated [[1991]]-[[09-20]], although he may also have been in the strip of [[1991]]-[[09-26]], seen from the back. He went unseen for several weeks during a protracted series about Elbonia, then reappeared on [[1991]]-[[10-21]], without the jowls and with the pointed hair.
 
Kuban kazak, I also got this message. I will respond shortly at AndriyK's talk. Please see [[Talk:Lviv Oblast]] re names. The issue isn't trivial. Also, please email me with your email address if you don't mind. --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 00:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
The Boss's family sometimes makes an appearance in the strips, and are frequently presented as being as incompetent as him. In [[1998]], the Boss's son, who hid in the [[attic]] for four years instead of attending [[college]], was hired for the company and made VP of marketing due to his complete lack of knowledge. Years later, the Boss's wife was hired as a [[receptionist]] for the company. Both the Boss's wife and son share his trademarked hairstyle, as do many managers in the comic strips. The Pointy-Haired Boss finds pointy hair as a positive and attractive feature, and often judges people based on the pointyness of their hair, such as when he promoted an employee named Ted because of a pointy "beard" that was growing on top of his head, or when he became attracted to Alice because she styled her hair like his.
:Sorry for interfering again, but let's not inflame our opponents in the edit summaries. I responded on the essence on their positions on the article's and AndriyK's talk pages. Cheers, --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 01:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== ...вряд ли ==
The term "[[Pointy Haired Boss|pointy-haired boss]]", or "PHB", has become a generic term for managers who do not understand what their employees do for a living, but try to pretend they do.
 
Родом я из Москвы. У меня прадед, будучи казаком, воевал в первую войну. Другие предки у меня с Полтавщины - наверняка с Хмельницким были. А сам я не то что бы казак, а скорее потомок казацкий - хотя шашка и нагайка дома имеются.
Within Dilbert's company the Boss represents [[middle management]]. The corporate CEOs and [[vice president]]s of the firm are constantly changing and are usually minor characters without developed personalities. The strip is seldom particularly shy about killing members of upper management.
<br>[[User:Kazak|Kazak]] 02:27, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==Challenge==
There is an unspoken but subtle running joke in the Dilbert chronicle. While the boss is "clueless", it is the boss who has a social life and family, while the "smart" ones who work for him have no social skills to speak of, and appear destined never to reproduce.
Man, saw your challenge for AndriyK. Ahhh, I want it :)) Anyway, I see why you want him to do it, and I am not going to interfere, but if you have anything else that's equally interesting and not so recent (administrative divisions are a hobby of mine), let me know, OK?.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
:Try Belarus, from the same 1940s atlas. Or Russia, all of the historic regions, gubernia, different borders etc.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 11:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
::Guberniyas, them I've been doing anyway (see [[History of the administrative division of Russia]]), albeit it's progressing much slower than I wanted. What I had in mind was a specific, well-defined challenge. I'll take a look at Belarus, though. Thanks!&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 13:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==Request for help==
==Wally==
[[Image:Wally_icon.gif|right]]
Inspired by a coworker of Adams at [[Pacific Bell]], '''Wally''' is a lazy employee always trying to work the system, although he is very capable at his occupation. In ''Seven Years of Highly Defective People'', Adams explained that his co-worker at [[Pacific Bell]] wanted to avail of the generous severance packages being offered by the company during a period of downsizing, which were actually better than a potential retirement package; he thus embarked on a mission to get fired. Adams was inspired by this co-worker's serious dedication towards this goal, and the concept of a completely shameless employee with no sense of [[loyalty]] became Wally.
 
[[User:Molobo]] has been in habit of vandalizing articles on [[Smolensk War]], [[Russophobia]], [[Belovezhskaya Pushcha]], etc. Now she attacks [[Berlin Congress]]. Please help to neutrilize her. Thanks, [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 12:13, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
In the animated series, we discover that Wally was once a great programmer. He is used later in the episode to solve the [[Year 2000 problem|Y2K bug]] while being [[hypnosis|hypnotized]].
 
==Metro :(==
Due to his obsession with [[coffee]], Wally's idea of "work" is simply carrying around a cup of the beverage, of which he drinks hundreds of cups a day. He also has a notable lack of hygiene. There is, in fact, a group of people that look like him, which led to Wally once being arrested for impersonating a dead man (and, since he gave the police a fake name, also caused [[#Asok|Asok]]'s career to go down the tube). Wally has no feelings for other people around him, so to him, it's okay to irritate people, ask poor Asok for frivolous things during budget requests, and do things at work that are forbidden by policy. For example, he got rid of Dilbert's monitor when company policy asked the employees to get rid of office equipment they never used, and once turned his cubicle into a pool.
Hi, Kazak. To be completely honest, I'm a bit disappointed with your recent moves of metro articles, especially considering the fact that you were the one scolding someone else for making silly edits. I already explained the Russian transliteration system used in Wikipedia, and I also explained that neither that system, nor the one you are more fond of, is by itself incorrect. However, only one system should be used for consistency sake. I would suggest that you adopt one that's already widely used instead of moving articles back and forth. [[Transliteration of Russian into English]] happens to be the system that Wikipedia's policies [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Russian names|prescribe]], and, as you undoubtedly know, non-complying with the policies is not usually the best idea. I do not mean to be petty or waste our time, but I am a consistency hobgoblin, that's for sure, and I ''do'' see consistency as one of the virtues Wikipedia should pursue. Thank you for your attention and understanding, and I would appreciate if you undid the rest of your changes yourself.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:59, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 
Additionally, I would also recommend you a refresher on [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English]] and to remind you that American spelling should not be changed into British (and vice versa) except when both variants co-exist on one page or when British spelling is used in an article on an American-related topic (and vice versa). In all other cases, the variant of English used by the original contributor should be used.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 23:09, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Wally enjoys viewing pornographic web sites, as indicated in a couple of strips. He was married at least four times but is now single and has no children (his last attempt at reproduction was at the [[Binary fission|cellular level]]). His personal life is a bit odd, such as having a [[veterinarian]] for a doctor.
 
:If consistency is to be followed then you will find that british spelling is used on the main page, and the main page of the KRL was changed to my system and used since, what kind of consistency is this if one line will use one version and another one a different one. Me and Camerafield agreed to take off -ja and -ij in preference to -YA and -IY. So no point reverting my changes.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:22, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
==Alice==
::The point is not something you discussed with another user. The point is to follow policies. If you see British spelling in one line and American in another, by all means correct that (but make sure you correct it to one the original author used, not the one you like the most). As for translit, please always correct it to conform with what the policies tell you to. I realize it may be hard for you&mdash;I, for example, cannot stand British spelling, but if that's what the original author used, then I will change all American spelling back to British if I happen to edit the page (mind you, some people actually choose to hunt down pages with inconsistent spelling). Again, this is not just the matter of personal courtesy, it's the matter of following the policies. You would not break the three-revert rule just because you do not like it or think that it was invented by a bunch of morons who had nothing better to do with their time, would you? Same goes for transliteration and spelling. Trust me, people broke too many spears and wasted too much time over these seemingly petty issues in the past. Each policy is there for a reason. I once again ask you to ''please'' comply.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 03:13, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
[[Image:Alice_icon.gif|right]]
'''Alice''' is a hard-working engineer who works with Dilbert. She has long curly hair, which transformed into a large and distinctive triangular hairstyle when the character became a regular.
 
May I add to that what's my own take on this. Being not a native speaker I never interfere with American/British spelling issue. I just leave those words as they are (unless I edit a piece) and leave it up to native speakers Wikipedians to bother about this. This is really such a minor issue for us, that there is no need to persist if it is such a major issue for others. As for the choice of the transliteration, especially in the article's names, I only move them when I know what version of the name is prevails in English. Like I moved the article about the Soviet rocket designer called until recently ''Korolev'' to ''Korolyov'' simply because the latter is used in English clearly wider. For subway stations, there is no way to get any meaningful statistics of the English usage. So, I suggest to propose the moves at talk first and wait for a while. It is really not a big deal, is it? --[[User:Irpen|Irpen]] 05:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
Alice is rarely rewarded for her hard work, although she was for a time the highest paid engineer in the company. She stands in contrast with Wally, who does no work and is rewarded nearly the same. Alice also suffers all the problems of being a female engineer. She has no tolerance for the discrimination she experiences.
 
== NPOV ==
Alice has a short temper. Her anger is frequently expressed in physical violence, and she is known for her "fist of death". In the past she has, among other things, kicked an Elbonian into his own hat, stuffed Asok into his shirt sleeve, and once slapped a man so hard he [[time travel|travelled forward in time]]. Alice has also thrown the PHB a fairly long distance as a result of her annual performance review; Dilbert and Wally have noted that her distance improves every year.She occasionally claims to have superpowers, and has used the 'Fist of Death' more than once.
 
... Whilst I might have patriotic POVs, I am against an article not repressinting the other side of the story. NPOV is a wikipedia policy which everyone must adhere to. ... [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 13:30, 11 November 2005
Alice is fractionally more successful in her social life than fellow employees. She has dated numerous times. She was ''almost'' into a committed relationship with an emotionally supportive man but turned him down at the last minute, as it was more cost advantageous to train monkeys to do similar work for Alice.
''(This is copied from my talk page)''--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 
::Please find below some citations of your edits. Just to think once more about NPOV that "is a wikipedia policy which everyone must adhere to."--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The women in the strip, in general, tend to be aggressive and sometimes violent, whereas the men are mostly meek and mild. Some observers might see this as a modern incarnation of the ancient [[situation comedy|sitcom]] staple of the henpecked husband. However, it may also be that it is politically safer to let women do violence. Adams is one of many cartoonists who admired [[Charles Schulz]]. In the [[Peanuts]] strip, Lucy was often violent, either "slugging" Linus or threatening to. As Schulz once explained, "Girls hitting boys is funny. Boys hitting girls is ''not'' funny". That same philosophy seems to apply in "Dilbert".
 
::::''It seen the revival of Orthodox religion in 1988 when the millenium celebration of the baptism of Rus marked a turn in the Soviet policy of religion. However afterwards dark times came on it again. In 1992, after Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine Filaret refused to resign, the cathedral became the first building to be captured by the UOC-KP. After the Karkov sinod and with the return of the new Metropolitan of Kiev and all Ukraine Vladimir, members of the neo-fascist UNA-UNSO barrikaded themselves inside the cathedral and refused entry to the new cannonical church leader and several thousand believers who gathered to meet them. Despite numerous protests from all the world Orthodox communities the cathedral is yet to return to the church and is still in the hands of the schismatics.''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=St_Volodymyr%27s_Cathedral&diff=26189124&oldid=25962321]
==Asok==
[[Image:Asok_the_intern_icon.gif|right]]
'''Asok''' (pronounced "Ah-shook" in the Dilbert universe, but actual pronunciation of name is "Ah-shoke") is a brilliant graduate from India Institute of Technology (parody of the real [[Indian Institutes of Technology|IIT]]) and an [[intern]] in Dilbert's company. The character is named after a friend and co-worker of Adams' at [[Pacific Bell]]. "Asok" is a common [[India]]n name, though it is usually spelled "Ashok". The name is an English variation of the name of an ancient king of [[India]], [[Ashoka]]. Asok himself is Indian, but was initially never mentioned in the strip. Adams says in ''Seven Years of Highly Defective People'' that this is because "I only like characters who have huge, gaping character flaws. The world is far too sensitive to let me get away with a highly flawed minority member."
 
::::''After the pillage of Kiev by the Mongolian Tatarsin 1180 the cathedral fell into decline and was even taken up by the uniats ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Kiev&diff=prev&oldid=26809258]
Asok often solves difficult problems in a few keystrokes, but he is still naïve to the cruelties and politics of the business world. As a result, he often ends up being the scapegoat for his coworkers' antics. Despite the fact that he has completed six years as an intern ([[as of 2005]]) and performed the functions of a senior engineer, Asok has been denied permission to be a regular employee and the usage of company resources for his work.
 
::Do you think your slighting attitude to other confessions is the way how the WP articles should be written?--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:56, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
It has been mentioned that Asok once lived in the handicapped stall; he later moved to a storage facility (but was only allowed an hour leave by the Pointy-Haired Boss). Asok is also trained to sleep only on national holidays, a trait that he allegedly carried over from his alma mater. In addition, he is able to perform telekinesis, using it once to vaporize an obnoxious Texan.
 
:::I did not say that I was the perfect example, yet I did not mind people editing my posts so that it be presented in an NPOV way. On the contrary before you people showed up, me and Irpen discussed how to water down the first example. In the end the seizure was agreed upon.
==Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light==
[[Image:Phil_icon.gif|right]]
'''Phil''' serves as ruler of [[heck]] and punishes people for minor infractions not worthy of damnation in [[hell]], such as using copier paper for the printer or stealing a chair from another cubicle (both of which Dilbert has done). He also serves as manager of [[limbo]], which in the strip is a subsidiary of heck. He is the PHB's younger brother, though this is rarely mentioned (twice, with a recent strip involving Phil outsourcing sinners who partake of [[carbohydrates]] to the PHB worker's cubicles).
 
:::What I do not understand is how my extensive contribution about Sophia is a breach of NPOV. Поясни.
Originally, Scott Adams planned to have [[Satan]] become a regular member of the ''Dilbert'' cast, but eventually softened the character after suggestions by his editor. Instead of a pitchfork, he carries an enormous spoon, and he has a tail with a rounded end (although Adams has "forgotten" about this once or twice). Instead of damning people to eternal flames he darns them, as in "I darn you to heck". On occasion, he also wears a [[cape]] (which Adams forgot he wasn't supposed to have).
[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 16:25, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Mediation concerning [[St Volodymyr's Cathedral]] ==
==Elbonians==
[[Image:Elbonian_icon.gif|right]]
The '''Elbonians''' are the residents of a fictional [[4th World|fourth-world]] country that appears in the comic strip, named [[Elbonia]]. The country is said to be a newly developing nation which &mdash; like the real country of [[Albania]] &mdash; has only recently embraced capitalism. Its neighbour and enemy which it has threatened with a catapult launched nuclear weapon is called '''Kneebonia'''. Most of the nation is covered with waist-deep mud, although in "Seven Years Of Highly Defective People", Adams admitted a lot of people thought the country was covered with snow &mdash; either way, the effect was the same and both options were fine with him. Adams created the country in order to allow for a "foreign" aspect in ''Dilbert'' without using any specific ___location, in order to avoid a backlash by readers who may be from that region. Dilbert's company often uses Elbonia as a source of cheap labor and general outsourcing.
 
I propose to ask for official mediation to resolve the dispute concerning [[St Volodymyr's Cathedral]] article. Whould you agree?--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 18:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Almost all of the Elbonians have beards (even the women and babies), tall hats, and mittens. Their technology is very outdated: "[[Telephone|phone]]s" are actually cans attached to the ends of strings and the means of "air transportation" (''Air Elbonia'') is flinging people from a giant slingshot (something Dilbert hates to do because he loses his luggage and gets head-deep into mud). Elbonians are commonly portrayed as idiotic and backward, yet the PHB seems to approve of outsourcing programming or documentation tasks to them. For many years the country has been mired in a [[civil war]] between the left- and right-handed Elbonians.
:Not that I am against but then we pretty much have setteled everything there is to settle, I mean if it is something as petty as Kyiv vs Kiev then it is laughable at mediating that (considering the length this article travelled), but if that's how you want to end it, fine by me. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 18:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 
I've got an e-mail from the mediator. Please check your mailsbox so that we can start the dispute resolution.--[[User:AndriyK|AndriyK]] 15:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Dogbert once became their ruler for a while, but then he and Dilbert (who acted as his adviser) fled the palace when they mistook the Elbonians' coming to them bearing farm tools as an uprising. It turned out they were calling him to preside over a farm holiday. In fact, this was the protracted series during which the "jowly" boss was replaced by the Pointy Haired Boss.
 
== Balachka ==
Some strips reference a "North Elbonia" which is [[Communist]] and appears to be loosely based on [[North Korea]]. North Elbonia was destroyed when they used a machine manufactured by Dilbert's employer; the manual had been made by Tina out of anger on how women in North Elbonia are mistreated (at least according to Dilbert).
 
I've never heard of [[Balachka]], until you mentioned it in some discussion recently. It sounds like an interesting article topic. Would you create a stub? ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-11-12&nbsp;22:20&nbsp;Z</small>''
A spinoff comic strip called ''[[Plop: The Hairless Elbonian|Plop]]'' follows the life of an Elbonian with no hair, which is a rare trait.
: Basically it is not a language, it is a dialect which we cossacks speak, it is similar to Ukranian/Russian mix (although nothing like the surzhik dialect) but volcabulary is solely Russian (ie флаг is used instead of прапор, аnd Дворец instead of Палац etc) although some ecxeptions exist e.g. Червоны(е) Рассийски(е) Ю(г)а. differences exist mostly in the sounds of Г, В, and О. Moreover the dialect varies so much from stanitsa to stanitsa (and the older generations in particular) that there really is no common version of it. For instance in some places the e at the end is muffled others clearly pronounce it. Well anyway here are some examples:
 
Take pronounciation of cities: Харькаф, Ки'иф, Петербург (the g at the end is pronounced solid, not like h)
Elbonia might be either a conscious or coincidental parallel to one of the venues in [[Al Capp]]'s long-running strip [[Li'l Abner]]: a nation called Lower Slobovia (based on Siberia), whose citizens were perpetually seen in waist deep snow and ice.
 
Да шо ты мне (х)оворишь (if there is an h sound then it is very short although in my stanitsa it simply muffled)? Сам знаю шо наши Рус'ськи(э) казачки красние фсех, хотя балтиливые. The э sound at the end of that word is said very briefly but destinguishable.
==Other characters==
{|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''The World's Smartest [[Janitor|Garbageman]]''' &mdash; [[Philosopher]] and [[scientist]]. Sometimes solves extremely complex problems for Dilbert. When Mother Nature had three deer shoot Dilbert, he saved Dilbert's life by repairing a cloning device Dilbert had thrown out. In the TV show, it was revealed that he was the only garbageman in the entire city, and was able to accomplish this by travelling from house to house instantaneously with [[wormhole|wormholes]]. Owns a working phaser.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Garbageman icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Dilbert's Mom''', also known as '''Dilmom''' &mdash; Homely but intelligent. Often selfish and openly uncaring towards her son. Wanted Dilbert to work on typewriters. She has nearly the same technical knowledge as Dilbert... although it may be the other way around. She is obsessed with [[Scrabble]], and has been accused of cheating with "counterfeit vowels". In the TV series, she dances a jig after playing a high-value word.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Dilbert's mom icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Dilbert's Dad''', also known as '''Dadbert''' &mdash; An [[unseen character]] in the comic strip (although he appears in the animated series, a la Wilson from [[Home Improvement]]) who lives at the all-you-can-eat restaurant because he hasn't eaten all ''he'' can eat.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Bob, Dawn, and Rex, the Dinosaurs''' &mdash; Not extinct, just (usually) hiding. Bob issues [[School pranks|wedgie]]s to the deserving, and is often a lackey in Dogbert's schemes. He told Dilbert he was a [[thesaurus]], although admitted it was a joke. Dawn claims to be a "nobodysaurus" (a [[pun]] on "nobody saw us"). Since Bob and Dawn appear to be different [[species]], Rex is presumably a [[hybrid]]. Bob cannot tell the difference between [[Tom Brokaw]] and [[Peter Jennings]], as he revealed in one strip when he told Dilbert that dinosaurs are incapable of lying.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Bob icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Carol''' &mdash; The PHB's [[Misanthropy|misanthropic]] and bitter secretary. She has attempted to rid herself of the PHB in several different ways, including sending him on trips to New York City with several stopovers in countries experiencing violent rebellions, holding a press conference that the PHB was a serial killer, and shooting him multiple times with a [[crossbow]].
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Carol icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Tina, the brittle tech writer''' &mdash; A radical [[feminist]], but less inclined to react than Alice. Once had a crush on Dilbert.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Tina icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Stan''' &mdash; The all-too-slick marketer. Temporarily turned into a weasel by the power of suggestion.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Ming''' &mdash; Webmistress. Once dated Mordac.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Mordac''' &mdash; Preventer of Information Technology. His job is to refuse all requests for new computer hardware and the like. Once dated Ming. Once, he changed Dilbert's password to the entire text of [[The Da Vinci Code]], excluding the parts he didn't believe. He also configured Alice's screensaver to [[Log out|log her out]] after two seconds of inactivity.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Mordac icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Ted''' &mdash; The Generic Guy. Never the focus of events himself, but appears wherever an otherwise-insignificant employee character is required. People who have known him for years still cannot describe him. He has taken on various roles, and often does not speak. The TV show points out something that was already implied in ''7 Years of Highly Defective People'': there may be more than one Ted, but since they're all generic, there's no way to know for sure.
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Ted icon.gif]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Hammerhead Bob''' &mdash; Summoner and buttinski of long, boring conversations. He has a spring-loaded butt, handy for inserting himself into other people's discussions. He appears in only two strips.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Trolls''' &mdash; Sadistic [[troll]]s from the [[accounting]] department whose bodies are 95% [[saliva]]. As Dogbert shows, their brains are so hard-wired that seeing someone wearing a baseball cap backwards causes their heads to explode, which he referred to as a "paradigm shifting without a clutch".
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Loud Howard''' &mdash; Another coworker who, despite appearing in few comic strips, became a regular character in the TV series. In the series, Loud Howard is incapable of speaking quietly, and his overpowering voice often breaks anything and everything around him, including people's eardrums. When he sneezes, it is highly advisable to take cover, as the resulting blast has blown the flesh off of people, leaving only a skeleton (at least in the marketing folks).
|style="vertical-align: top"|[[Image:Loud Howard icon.jpg|60px]]
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Zimbu''' &mdash; A [[monkey]] who humiliates Dilbert and Wally by constantly outperforming them. He uses his tail to use the computer mouse while using both hands to type and is therefore the fastest programmer at the company. Not unlike Dogbert, he appears to be superior to human as a species. This could be yet another indicator that Scott Adams does not think much of humans as a species. This is also supported by some of his comments in the ''7 Years of Highly Defective people'': "I support equal rights for pets", on page 80 and "Imagine an advanced race of aliens who talk to the average human; do you think they'll be impressed?" on page 112. Zimbu also appeared in the TV show (helping Wally prevent the company's computers from crashing on Y2K).
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''The Useless Guy''' &mdash; A person who never works at all. He would rather take up the space of other coworkers and eat their doughnuts. Sometimes he will clip out articles and publications and leave them on other people's chairs. He makes an appearance in the TV series.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Bottleneck Bill''' &mdash; Shaped like a bottle and true to his namesake, believes that "anything worth doing is worth delaying". His neck is made of titanium, as he reveals when Alice tries to strangle him.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Topper''' &mdash; Man who has been known to "one-up" conversations. He cannot start a conversation, as it "ruins his system".
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Techno-Bill''' &mdash; One of the most popular characters that was shown briefly in [[1993]]. Wears a belt of electronic tools & uses auto-dialing to defeat Dilbert's lesser assortment of personal electronic devices. Was voiced by [[Phil Hartman]] in the Desktop Diversions game "Techno Raiders".
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Lola''' &mdash; Seduces Dilbert after giving up on going for men who care about appearance.
|style="vertical-align: top"|
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Liz''' &mdash; Dilbert's temporary girlfriend. He met her at a soccer game, where she rebounded a ball off his head to score a goal. She eventually breaks up with him.
|-
|style="vertical-align: top"|
* '''Specter of Unpaid Overtime''' &mdash; He visits Dilbert saying he is there to rake up the sticky notes, he aspire's to the role of a [[Grim Reaper]].
|}
 
-Вот был Сталин, да по'аладали потом по'ое'али, но при этам было щастьи а потом умник Хрущоф
[[Category:Dilbert|Characters]]
 
[[Category:Comics characters]]
-Хрющиф чорт е'о падрал
 
-Ща ты у миня будеш Хрюкать оГда пад маей шашкай акажишся...Вот взял и ород-ерой (alternatively g's if pronounced are used - no h substitute) СталинГрад периминавал В-Ол'ГоГрад (here is a good example where an В sound is pronounced and also the O sound is fully sounded and streched for longer than in normal Russian) Other examples of BO sound different: сем, осим, девять.
[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 01:04, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 
: Thanks. That's interesting; I can see the Ukrainian connection, although some of it is puzzling since I don't know Russian. Is the akanye usually spelt out, as in "Харькаф"? ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2005-11-13&nbsp;05:04&nbsp;Z</small>''
 
::It is spelled out using Moscovite Russian translit here, balachka has no grammar or language, we write in Russian (although some stanitsas use the pre-1918 grammar), also it is spoken very quickly. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 14:51, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==[[Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Halibutt]]==
 
I think you would be interested in voting here, especially as there are voices that Halibutt is an anti-Russian (Ukrainian, etc.) POV-pusher. --[[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 23:30, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
:Don't know really, I was not here long enough to become in contact with Halibutt, so I shall withhold for the time being. Anyway you seem to have a strong case against him. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
::Ok. I don't have a case against Halibutt. As I explained on his talk page, I will even support him the next time around. But he should learn to dissociate himself from nationalist trolls like Molobo or Space Cadet. If you have had troubles with Molobo, please add the summary of his abuses to my note [[User_talk:Dbachmann#Molobo's RfAr|here]]. I believe we should stand united against his nationalist spree. Thanks, [[User:Ghirlandajo|Ghirlandajo]] 14:31, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==A bit more on the metro==
Hi there. I have a couple minor questions on your metro project, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ulitsa_Podbelskogo&curid=2197317&diff=28587939&oldid=28587890 this edit] in particular. The first one I meant to ask for a while now&mdash;it's regarding the names of the architects. You've been using their initials so far, which is understandable, considering that's probably what most of your sources are using. You do, however, also wikilink them. Now, I don't really know much about those people, but do you think they are notable enough to ever have their own articles? My point is, if the only thing they are famous for is the station(s) they designed, maybe there is no need to link their names, especially when only the last name and initials are known. Anyway, that's just my thought.
 
The second question is regarding the external links section. I'm not sure why you didn't like my wording ("the description of the station on..."), and I'm not going to concern myself with this, but having a note in parentheses indicating that the link leads to the site which is not in English is a common courtesy to the reader. I've read too many interesting articles that made me hungry for more, only to discover that most of the links in the external links section are to the sites written in Chinese, Dutch, or Hebrew. I admit that not many editors concern themselves with these minor details, but since you are developing quite a few articles from scratch, perhaps you'd consider it? Besides, it's often a combination of both content and those minor details that creates a synergy of a great article.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 14:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:I did not wikilink them as I did not write the original article. Sorry about the removal of the description of the links, that was a typo. But why did you revert my translits, I mean since as you said none is right I just wanted to clarify them. Besides Krasniye vs Krasnye is much more logical considering that Y is not a vowel and is not suitable to substitute Ы since the index Ye is used to substute any E that's after a vowel and hence ЫЕ ЫЙ should be translited as IYE and IY consisdering there is no Ы in english anyway, and in my opinion the Y is overused in Russian to english translits anyway. -ий, -ый, й, ы, е. Give I a chance!!![[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 17:21, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
::Sorry, my bad&mdash;it was me myself who added the wikilinks (duh!). That was in hopes someone would come and put the full names in. But since you obviously know the topic&mdash;do you think it'd be better to replace initials with full names and leave the names linked, or would it be better to simply remove the wikilinks because most of the metro stations architects were not all that notable?
 
:::Not notable? Nina Aleshina, Robert Pogreboi, Alexandr Dushkin... [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 20:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
::::Being less than a fan of Moscow and its history, I wouldn't know. Surely, some of the architects mentioned in the metro articles are far less notable than the others. Anyway, I'm leaving this up to your judgement to delink those people who do not deserve articles of their own. All I wanted to do their was to bring someone's attention to incomplete names.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
::Thanks for the clarification on the external links format, too.
::As for the transliteration (sigh), I did indeed mention that no existing system is "correct" (as well as "incorrect"). The question is again consistency. Yes, we can theoretically use "i" for "ы", but notice, however, that neither ISO-9, nor ALA-LC, nor Allworth, nor BGN/PCGN, nor even GOST systems do so. They all use "y". This is, simply put, a tradition. Why invent new rules? Do you really want to introduce ''yet another transliteration'' system to the slew of already existing ones? In the hindsight, the act of modifying BGN/PCGN (slightly!) for Wikipedia was probably not the best idea, but it was only done because using "y" to indicate "-ый" and "-ий" endings is so common when transliterating Russian into English, and because "yy" for "-ый" looks awful to an English-speaking reader. It makes sense, but it introduced elements of transcription into otherwise clean transliteration system. Substituting "i" for "ы" will add another one&mdash;but in this case the question is&mdash;why? It is certainly not traditional, and is not even more common (just google for "krasniye" vs "krasnye", or "chistiye" vs "chistye").
::I hope my explanations make sense to you. You won't believe how many times I had similar conversations in the past. So far I've been able to persuade those people that the system currently in place, while definitely not perfect, is the best for Wikipedia considering 1)&nbsp;the number of articles that already use it; 2)&nbsp;the traditions of transliterating Russian into ''English'' (this is English Wikipedia, so the other languages do not really matter much); 3)&nbsp;the fact that the output is so much readable to an English-speaking person; and 4)&nbsp;it can easily be decoded back to Cyrillics even despite some transcription elements.
::Please let me know if you wish to discuss this further. I am more than willing to. Take care,&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:32, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:::It is not the question of what is commonly used, it is a question of what is correct, I mean the fact that Y is used instead of I whilst there is no ы sound in english at all is not my convention but then hey Galen was used up until 15th century before Versailles corrected him, so conventions make little difference to me, they will make even less difference to an English user, but the overwhelming preference to Y will, especially in since most of the sounds can be split easilly replaced by I. I mean compare Izmaylovsky Park to Izmailovskiy Park. You are saying that an english person will be fully alright and forgiven for saying ИзмаЫловскЫ Парк or Красн'йe Ворота. No wonder that so many foreigners can't pronounce and read Russian correctly. In addition what is Й in Russian? И-Краткое, ie ''I''-Short, so why use Y for it? [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 20:38, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
::::As far as "correct" goes, let me remind you that Wikipedia is not here to push correct spellings, but to represent common trends (I'll dig you a link to a specific policy, if you don't believe me). In that regards, "Kyiv" is also correct, and "Kiev"&mdash;incorrect, yet the article is at [[Kiev]] because that's what the majority of people uses. By your logic, the best way to handle Russian names is to provide phonetic transcription instead of transliteration. Surely IPA is more "correct" by your standards than any of the translit system I described above. But, transliteration, unlike transcription, renders the original name in letters the reader knows and in ways the reader can understand. Tell me, what makes ''Izmailovskiy Park'' superior to ''Izmaylovsky Park''? Following your example, it can just as easily be converted by an uninformed reader back to ''ИзмаИловскиЫ'', which is equally incorrect. Would you rather see ''Izmailovskii''? Same thing, it can be converted to ''ИзмаиловскиИ''&mdash;again, incorrect (and that is not to mention that we merely traded one ambiguity for another). What about ''Krasniye''? Why do you accept the possibility of it being read as ''КраснИе''? Face it, there is '''NO''' correct way to transliterate Russian, not if we accept your definition of "correct". In which case, why not stick with something that worked before, is working now, is not an artificial invention, and is accepted by the majority of people? I '''really''' want to hear what you have to say now.
 
::::As for the "y" being used to transliterate "й"&mdash;in modern English "y" is a consonant that sometimes acts as a vowel, which pretty much makes it a semi-vowel. "Й" is also a semi-vowel. To me, that's a perfect match. I'm sure that the authors of all major transliteration systems followed the same logic.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 22:03, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:::::Kiev and Kyiv is more a question of familiarity and the comparison is more like Moscow and Moskva. I agree that it will be impossible to fully transliterate Russian into English (although it is possible to do it into Spanish and German where you have the J). In terms of pronounciaciaon of Izmailovskiy lets remeber that I in english is not limited to the и sound, in fact the sound can also be achieved in ee and ei and other examples, so why limit i to и, so why should it become in Russo-English translit. Moreover Измаиловский is actually not entirely incorrect (depending on which Russian accent you take). Anyway since "history" has made it that y represents Ы, then so be it, but representing other sounds, I can't see the disadvantage of not clarifying something like -ий with -iy. Finally I don't expect foreigners get the Ы sound at all, and most substitute with И anyway. I personally have herd them say Красние Ворота and I am alright with that but when they see something like Izmaylovsky Park most say Измаиловски Парк, I consider that to be a much more serious mistake than Красние Ворота, because this is not due to their mother tongue not having these sounds, but due to the transliteration that is given to them. Don't get me wrong I am against -ii and -yy to duplicate -ий and -ый. I thing that the former in particular should be differentiated from the latter by -iy and -yi or -yj respectivelly. Finally in relation to the Krasniye vorota. Note that the letter E has always been made very clear by (guess what) by using the Y, after a vowel it like in Alekseyevskaya and Belyayevo (I don't even want to imagine how many incorrect ways that can be pronounced), so how does Krasnye Vorota fits into this is the y used for the Ы or the E (and I'll finish with saying I have herd Красне Ворота before)[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 23:05, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
::::::Using "-iy" to represent "-ий" (but not "-ый") is actually all right, even within current policy. In the end, this is the matter of personal taste. I personally like to use "y" anyway (for, you guessed right, consistency sake), but "-iy" has equal rights.
::::::As for "Krasnye Vorota", "ye" for "-ые" here is used for the same reason why "yy" is not used for "-ый", which is to avoid ugliness of double y. What's more, in these borderline cases "ye" is used more often than "yye" (see google, as well as the article on [[Naberezhnye Chelny]]). So basically to conform with policies we should either use "Krasnye" (because it's more common use) or "Krasnyye" (to stick with the translit guidelines; also note that Encarta uses this convention). "Krasniye" may seem as a good idea, but, as I mentioned above, such variant is not used by any major transliteration system, and Wikipedia should mirror common knowledge/use (to the point where it does not contradict the facts, of course) instead of inventing new conventions. Again, the final variant boils to the personal preference. As for foreigners pronouncing stuff incorrectly&mdash;well, they are foreigners, they would pronounce things incorrectly and/or with accent even if transliteration were perfect.
::::::Anyway, I will try to compile a list of most common objections to and questions about [[Transliteration of Russian into English|current Wikipedia transliteraton system]]. I should have probably done it long ago, because having the same conversation over and over, only with different people every time, is really a chore. If you want to suggest any objections/questions for such a list, feel free to drop me a note or just continue commenting here. Thanks.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 02:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Ulitsa 1905 Goda ==
 
I think Ulitsa Tysyacha Devyatsot Pyatogo (1905) Goda should be shortened to Ulitsa 1905 Goda since "Ulitsa Tysyacha Devyatsot Pyatogo (1905) Goda" is rather long for an article title and makes the TKL template uncomfortably wide. I don't see any advantage to spelling out 1905, especially since "Ulitsa 1905 Goda" is the spelling commonly used elsewhere, including Metro signs. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 01:43, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 
:But not how its pronounced in the loudspeakers, anyway I don't really mind, but certainly spell it fully out on the article.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 08:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 
::Thanks, the template looks a lot better. [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 02:08, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==Volyn Crop and [[Holodomor]]==
 
Hi Kazak, that's an interesting point that you're rising. I think the good places to check for this would be [http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=43 National Archives] or [http://www.aan.gov.pl/index2.htm The New Archives] (but the latter don't seem to have an English version online) or maybe [http://www.stat.gov.pl/english/index.htm Central Statistical Office]. Your question seems intriguing and I'll try to investigate it but it's going to take some time, as I'm rather busy these days. Also, we have to remeber that wikipedia is not a place for original research, so we should be rather basing on other authors' works. As far as I know there's been no famine in the 1930-s in Western Ukraine, so that would seem to confirm that the famine in Eastern Ukraine at that time had to be politically driven rather than a natural disaster. As for neutral historians (that is not Polish/Russian/Ukrainian), I've checked that Norman Davies in his "God's Playground" writes that Ukrainians in Poland at that time were horrified at their neighbours across the border starving to death. This would also confirm that it was not a natural famine, but one that was artificially made. Cheers for now. --[[User:Wojsyl|Wojsyl]] <sup>([[User talk:Wojsyl|talk]])</sup> 10:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Congratulations! ==
 
Just want to congratulate you and your wife [[User:Alex Bakharev|abakharev]] 08:09, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 
::Thank you. Summer 2006. [[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 22:54, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Architects ==
 
== Architects' initials ==
 
What exactly is the problem with giving the initials of the Moscow Metro architects? [[User:Camerafiend|Camerafiend]] 01:15, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
:I hope Kazak does not mind me answering this question for him (since it was me bugging him about it in the first place). Actually, there is really no problem. It is just preferable to give full names, if they are known. If they are not known, then, of course, initials are better than nothing, but in that case the names should probably not be wikilinked.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 01:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
::I suggest we leave it as surnames alone, and besides official names of Russians are never given (in Wikipedia) with their (son of ) "middle" name. So if giving initials, then just the first name.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 08:31, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 
==RfAr==
An [[Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration#Community vs. User:AndriyK|arbitration request]] against [[User:AndriyK]] has been filed. If you intend to participate/co-sign, please add your name to the "Involved parties" section and write a statement.&mdash;[[User:Ezhiki|Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis)]] 18:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Question ==
 
Are Kuban kazaks Russians, Ukrainians or Kazaks?
IMO it is Russian sub-ethnical group.
RGRDS
[[User:Ben-Velvel|Ben-Velvel]] 14:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 
We are Cossacks. Кубанские Казаки. Checl 2002 census.
 
My opinion: the followng people Velikorossians, Malorossians, Belorossians, Pomorians, Carpathian Ruthenians and Cossacks are just the different variations of the Russian slavic group. The fact that in 1917 the term Russian was privatised to the Velikorossians is the source of confusion. Cossacks in the 1926 census could not decide where they belong and as they are neither Veliko or Malorossians, culturally and ethnically. Most of the Cossacks by default were turned into Russians (Don, Terek, Ural etc). With us Kubanese when faced with question Russian and Ukranians they would have digested it as Veliko or Malorossians? Well we are neither and there are countless ethnographical accounts which say that Cossacks are a subgroup and do not belong to either side of the eastern slavic branches. In 1926 they would have said we are Cossacks, the census people after their failed attempt to lingustically destinguish the population simply split them, 50:50 and called for further research. Thereby the census itself concludes that the data is provisionary. The fact that US government can't understand that is not surprising, I mean there is a destinct percentage of the US population that thinks in our country winter is all year round and bears walk on our streets.[[User:Kuban kazak|Kuban kazak]] 17:57, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 
What an original point of view! I must write it down. It can be used as smart joke. Especialy this part: "...Carpathian Ruthenians... variation of Rissian slavic group..." LOL!!! Did you tell them already? I think you should, Kazak - they struggle to find identity for a long time already.--[[User:Oleh Petriv|Oleh Petriv]] 02:00, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 
== Dnipro ==
Kazak, I would gladly take into account your suggestions, but unfortunately I have low credibility in them. Even if I'm only few days here, on English Wikipedia, I have formed my opinion already on your style of writing and changes as well as couple of other "brothers" like Ghirlandajo. Sorry for being so direct. I will talk over the issue about names with Irpen. He seems to be reasonable person. And don't worry too much about poor Anglophones. In this case this excuse in nothing more than a way to promote or pro-Russian point of view.--[[User:Oleh Petriv|Oleh Petriv]] 01:56, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minor_characters_in_Dilbert"