Talk:.22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire and Talk:Azerbaijani literature: Difference between pages
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{{WikiProject Iran}}
{{WikiProject_Azerbaijan}}
{{cleanup taskforce closed|Azerbaijani literature}}
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This article makes numerous ridiculous claims, that have no place in an encyclopedia. For example, having literature in 6th century AD, while Azerbaijan (either seen as a nation, state, or ethnic unit of any kind) is a much later formation.
That first book the article talks about is Central Asian (not Azeri), and was written after the Central Asians were Islamized, not before. And Nizami was a Persian poet. And so on, the article needs a major revision by a sane expert in the area.
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Just one ramark. In many places in Internet (and even in some Encyclopedia) Azeri make a claim, that Nizami Gandzhevi was an Azeri poet. However, term Azerbaijani (or Azeri Turk) was first introduced in 1918. And it refferred to people, who live in the republic of Azerbaijan, not to etnic group. Etnically Azerbaijanis were, and are Turks.
Second, Nizami Gandzhevi was writing all his poems on Farsi, not Turkish or Azeri (which simply did not exist at that time). All serious studies mention Gandzhevi az a persian poet, who lived in Ganzha, then territory of Iran, now in the territory of Azerbaijan.
Gandzhevi as an Azeri poet was first mentioned by 'Bolshaja Sovetskaja Enciklopedia' in 1938.
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I realize that the Azeri language is close to/mutually comprehensible with Turkish. It
always seemed to me that the distinction is based upon religion; Turks follow Sunni Islam
and Azerbaijanis follow Shia Islam. Am I right on this?
== Cleanup ==
Hi all, this article has been placed on my desk as part of my role with the [[Wikipedia:Cleanup Taskforce]]. I'm interested in literature in general but I confess that I have no specific knowledge of Azerbaijani literature. I'm sure I'll make some missteps during the cleanup process, but please know that they aren't malicious. Someone has placed an NPOV tag on the article but I don't see any mention of it here on the talk page; does anyone want to speak up about what they think is POV? Thanks · [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 15:47, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
==Why is this page protected?==
Mpt that I want to edit it, just watch cleanup. [[User:Pmanderson|Septentrionalis]] 01:08, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
:Interesting. I have no idea why it's protected. I'll ask on the admin's noticeboard. · [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 01:30, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
::[[User:Nohat|Nohat]] protected it about a week ago. I've left a message on his talk page. · [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 01:34, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
:::Ok, looks like there were some vandal problems; Nohat has now unprotected. Now I just have to figure out how to proceed with the cleanup! :/ ... · [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 01:47, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)
==First round==
I've removed the NPOV tag, since nobody has spoken up here about why the tag was there in the first place. I've also encyclopedia-ized much of what used to be a list. · [[User:Katefan0|'''Katefan0''']]<sup>[[User talk:Katefan0|(scribble)]]</sup> 16:37, July 13, 2005 (UTC)
== Name of the article should be changed ==
... to [[Literature of Azerbaijan]], because this article is not really about the literature written in the Turkish language of Azerbaijan (="Azerbaijani language"), but about all literature written in the region Azerbaijan. Therefore, the current name is totally confusing. There should be a seperate article dealing with the Turkish literature of Azerbaijan alone ... poets, such as Nizami who lived in Azerbaijan but did not write in Azerbaijani, are not part of the "Azerbaijani literature" tradition, though they are part of Azerbaijan's literary heritage. [[User:Tajik|Tājik]] 10:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
== Huge POV problems ==
i have fixed the POV problems, and i agree with what tajik is saying above. this article makes no sense the way it is, but for now, i have gotten rid of the POV problems.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:Well, "fixing" is no better than the previous version. I have re-fixed it.--[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 17:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
i had gotten rid of the grammatical mistakes, i would appreciate if you do not change. ALSO, DEDE KORKUT IS A TURKIC STORY, IT DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO ESPECIFICALLY WITH THE LITERATURE OF AZERBAIJAN. i am reverting the article back to the way i had it.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 19:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:It's not only gramatical mistakes and Dede Korkut is a very important part of the oral literature in Azerbaijan. I don't think your revert is suffisiently warranted and I am reverting it again, as I think that the previous version gives a better basis for improvement. But, it does not mean that I consider it perfect. We can work together to improve it. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 20:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
::Oral literature? does that even make sense? no. Dede Korkut is a turkic story which is not restricted to Azerbaijan. you have to accept this fact. you cannot claim that Dede Korkut is Azeri, it isnt.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 20:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
What part of the [[oral literature]] does not make sense? I would suggest that you should refrain editing articles that you are not knowledgeable enough. If you knew enough about Azerbaijani literture, then you would know that Dede Korkut has an important place in it and many other tales and written literature in Azerbaijan is based on it. Dede Korkut of course is not restircted to only to Azerbaijan, it contains tales from a broad spectrum of history and geography. But it does not change the fact that Dede Korkut is one of the oldest and most revered piece of literature in Azerbaijan. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 21:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:ok, for now i will leave the Dede Korkut in, but what you are saying is kind of ilogical. is a french book that is popular in the USA be called american literature? no. how can the dede korkut be a part of azari literature whe it comes from a different group of people.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 21:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Good analogy, but imperfect. Books ususally have single authors - and if the author is French, living in France and have nothing to do with American Literature, then it can not be called as a part of American literature. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 21:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC) Oh and recent edits are not only about Dede Korkut, but I will leave it as it is right now, before we figure out how to resent it in a more neutral manner. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 21:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
:: There was no country Iran or Azerbaijan during Seljuqid times. For example you say:''In the [[11th century]] and [[12th century]], Azerbaijani literature flourished under the [[Shirvanshahs]]. ''. But this is statement is wrong since Shirvanshahs themselves were really Persianized Arabs and all the literature was Persian. It is like calling native American literature as English literature. When we say Azerbaijani literature, we mean literature in Azerbaijani language. So Fizuli who is from Baghdad but was not from Iran or the Caucus is rightfully part of Azerbaijani literature. As the article currently says: ''Also in the 16th century, Muhammed Fuzuli produced his timeless philosophical and lyrical Qazals in both Persian and Azerbaijani. Benefiting immensely from the fine literary traditions of his environment, and building upon the legacy of his predecessors, Fizuli was destined to become the leading literary figure of his society. His major works include The Divan of Ghazals and The Qasidas.''. Fizuli was not from the caucus but he is part of Azerbaijani literature. Also as you can see the article says produced in both Persian and Azerbaijani and so is relavent. Actually the interesting thing about Fizuli is that he wrote in Arabic as well. If you are including just anyone from the caucus, then Fizuli should not be included. Same with Hasan Oghlu who was from Khorasan but wrote in the Azerbaijani Turkish dialect. But Nizami did not write in Azerbaijani Turkish dialect. (despite his ethnicity being at least half Kurdish and the other half never be). This is not an ethnic issue and the article should deal with compositions in Azerbaijani language literature. As per Dede Qorqot its composition is not 1300 years old and no scholar has ever made such a claim. Numerous Persian and Arabic words make it certain that it was written in Ottoman era. Although how old is actual folk literature can be anyone's guess. That is Shahnameh was written in 10th century, but it stories goes back to Zoroaster and before hand. About Dede Qorqod Faruq Sumer puts the composition between 14th and 16th century. If you have any reliable scholars that have studied turkic languages, let us now. The Encyclopedia of Islam also has a fantastic article on Azeri Turkish literature. Have you read it? I can email it to anyone who wants to read it. The encyclopedia Iranica also a has good article on Azerbaijani Turkish literature. Lets keep the information and content of wikipedia reliable. --[[User:Ali doostzadeh|Ali doostzadeh]] 21:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
:ok, why dont you read about Dede Korkut, you will find out that its old, older than the Turkic history of azerbaijan. this is about Azerbaijani literature.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 22:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
== Nizami should not be in this article ==
i dont see what nizami has to do with azeri literature. I agree with doostzadeh's deletion. there needs to be consistancy throughout wikipedia. you cannot claim that azeri's have been turkic since the begining and then come here and claim non-turkic literature as your own...also, this is this about the literature of the azerbaijan republic? the title should be changed, because none of us will agree on what azeri literature really is.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 21:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
==What should be included?==
It's not ONLY about the language, or geography or ethnicity here. It's about all of them. If a particular poet or a piece of literature is part of this tradition and has a considerable influence then it should be included. We should be inclusive rather than restrictive. I will explain my position on details later, right now I have some partying to do. Forza Italia. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 04:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
:: Yes nice victory for Italy, as I was cheering for them. About your comment, language does not make sense since Nizami Ganjavi wrote all of his work in '''Persian'''. A person can not belong to both Azerbaijani and Persian literature, unless they wrote in both. And how come you shy away from writing that all of Nizami's work is in Persian?! Ethnicity wise, we know Nizami Ganjavi was half Kurdish and we had a long discussion on his page. That just leaves geography which has changed many times throughout history. Then why don't you include Armenian authors from the current area of Azerbaijan as well? Or even writes who wrote exlusively in Arabic? And under Armenian literature, one does not include Azerbaijani authors from Irevan. Nezami Ganjavi was influenced considerably by Ferdowsi, so why not include him as well?
:: Geography, the area was called Arran back then, and the modern concept of Azerbaijani state did not exist back then. Furthermore if your concern is geographic, then you make an article about literature from the Caucus and include all the languages. Persian literature influenced Turkish literature considerably. Arabic literature influenced Persian. BTW Oghuz Turks were not in Azerbaijan in 6th and 7th century. Why don't you read the article on Azari literature in Encyclopedia of Islam? It has good information and is not biased in any way. The issue is not political. If someone has not created literature in Azerbaijani Turkish, then they are not part of Azerbaijani Turkish literature. That is the standard definition. Also which academic has said that dede qorqod goes back to the 6th 7th century when Oghuz Turks were not in the area back then? --[[User:Ali doostzadeh|Ali doostzadeh]] 09:06, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
:::Yes, Nizami does belong to BOTH Azerbaijani and Persian literature. Becuase, unlike the Persian literature, Azerbaijani literature is not only about the language. Yes, he did write in Persian, but he lived in Azerbaijan and more importantly the reason for his inclusion is that he has a great influence in the later Azerbaijani literature. That's what separates him form others who may have lived and wrote in the same area. Ethnicity wise we do not know much and as far as literature is concerned we do not need to know much, it is irrelevant. The main threshhold here should be, whtether this author or a piece of literature, has infleunced the Azerbaijani literature, other factors are important too but this is the one that we need to use when we have to differentiate what is and what is not part of this literature. I am not talking about the influence of a great poet, it may influece many literatures, that way yes, Ferdowsi has influenced Azerbaijani literature too, but is not part of it. What I'm talking about is if his legacy is calimed by the said people or not. Ferdowsi's legacy is not, but Nizami's is. Furthermore, I don't know on what you base your assumtion, but I have never shied away from writing that his works are in the Persian language. And the article as it is, explains it, if there is a need for more explanation, you can of course make necessary edits. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 15:49, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
:that makes no sense whats so ever. Rumi has influences a lot of english literature and music, but can they claim rumi as part of english literature and music? no, because he wasnt english. Joseph Conrad, polish born, is considered one of enlgish literatures greatest authors, why? because HE WROTE IN ENGLISH. you cannot claim everything as azerbaijani.[[User:Iranian Patriot|Iranian Patriot]] 16:44, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
::My friend, I have explained about what I mean by influence. Saying that Nizami is not a part of Azerbaijani literature is nothing but ridiculus. --[[User:TimBits|TimBits]] [[Image:Flag of Canada.svg|25px|<nowiki></nowiki>]] 16:46, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
== Encyclopedia Islam ==
This is from the Encyclopedia Islam under Azerbaijani literature:
''If we set aside the Kitab-i Dede Korkud , whose first composition is ascribed to the 11th century, although the text was probably not fixed before the 14th century, the first great name in Adhari Turkish literature is that of Shaykh Izz ad-Din Asfarayini, a renowned 13th century poet whose wrote under the Makhlas (pen name) of Hasan-Oghlu or Pur-Hasan.''
''Two poets of the 14th century who played in an important role in development of Adhari literature were Kadhi Burhan Ad-din and Nasimi. Nasimi who sometimes used the Makhlas of Huseyni, was a contemporary of Timur. A master of Arabic and Persian, as well as Azari, he used his poetic gifts to propagate the Hurufi doctorine.''
''His simple and attractive diction made him the most popular poet of his time. The medieval period of Azari literature is regarded as closing with him, but the themes and
lyricism of his poetry had their influence on the development of the new period.''
''The simple (Azari) Turkish style introduced by Nasimi was raised to the greatest heights by Habibi, Shah Ismail the Safawi and Fizuli. Habibi poet, lyricist and a scholar, who for a while enjoyed the patronage of Shah Ismail Safawi, constitutes a stage between Nesimi, Shah Ismail and Fizuli.''
Then it gets to Safavid and modern era. The article was written A. CafferOglu. Also the Encyclopedia Iranica article by Gerhard Doefer on Azeri Turkish is very informative. The article should be academic. To put a picture of Nezami Ganjavi without mentioning all his work is in Persian in a page about Azerbaijani literature does not make sense either. Persian literature and Azerbaijani literature while both rich, and while Persian literature has influence Azarbaijani literature, are two different topics. --[[User:Ali doostzadeh|Ali doostzadeh]] 12:13, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
==Dispute tag==
The very first sentence of the second section is inaccurate. Pre-Islamic Azarbaijan was not Oghuz Turkic by any means. That is completely false. It was [[Ancient Azari language]].--[[User:Zereshk|Zereshk]] 16:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
==PLease make NPOV Edits==
This statement in the article is totatally POV (POint of View), incorrect, and not neutral as it is suppose to be.
:::''Historically, Nizami Ganjavi has been held up as one of Azerbaijan's greatest poets, although Iranians also consider him as a native son (he wrote in Persian).''
* Firstly, writing in Persian does not automatically make any particular individual an Iranian. This is POV. Any language can be used, such as Kurdish and Azari, and the individual will still be Iranian.
* Secondly, the statement '''"although''' ''Iranians'' '''also consider''' ''him a'' '''native son,"''' is making a POV assertion that Nezami was not an Iranian, but wrongly considered an Iranian. The words although and consider are not neutral.
* Thirdly, Persian was and has not always been the officially language of Iran. Do not make the mistake of assesing the characterisitcs of Iranian or non-Iranian based on just or only the Persian language.
* Fourthly, Azaris are of Iranian nationality and this statement is irrational.
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