Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) and Kaká: Difference between pages

Revision as of 11:19, 27 January 2006

Revision as of 18:46, 9 September 2006

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{{dablink|This article is about the Brazilian footballer. For other uses of ''Kaka'', please see [[kaka (disambiguation)]].}}

{{Villagepumppages|Technical|The '''technical''' section of the village pump is used to discuss technical issues. Bugs and feature requests should be made at [[MediaZilla:|BugZilla]] since there is no guarantee developers will read this page.

{{Football player infobox |

playername = Kaká |

image = [[Image:Kaká.jpg|150px]] |

fullname = Ricardo Izecson<br>dos Santos Leite|

height = 1.86 m (6'2") |

nickname = Kaká |

dateofbirth = [[April 22]], [[1982]] |

cityofbirth = [[Brasília]] |

countryofbirth = [[Brazil]] |

currentclub = [[A.C. Milan]] |

clubnumber = 22 |

position = Attacking Midfielder |

youthyears = <!--No info--> |

youthclubs = <!--No info--> |

years = [[2001]]-[[2003]]<br>[[2003]]-present |

clubs = [[São Paulo Futebol Clube|São Paulo]]<br>[[A.C. Milan]] |

caps(goals) = 58 (23)<br> 101 (31) |

nationalyears = 2002-present |

nationalteam = [[Brazil national football team|Brazil]] |

nationalcaps(goals) = 45 (17) |

pcupdate = May 14, 2006 |

ntupdate = September 4, 2006

}}

'''Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite''' (born [[April 22]] [[1982]]), better known as '''Kaká''', is a Brazilian [[football (soccer)|footballer]] who plays as a [[midfielder]] for [[Brazil national football team|Brazil]] and the [[Serie A]] club [[A.C. Milan]].

'''FAQ:''' Intermittent database lags can make new articles take some minutes to appear, and cause the watchlist, contributions, and page history/old views sometimes not show the very latest changes. This is an ongoing issue we are working on.

==Biography==

Newcomers to the technical village pump are encouraged to read [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Before posting|these guidelines]] prior to posting here.

Kaká was born in [[Brasília]], [[Brazil]], to Simone Cristina dos Santos Leite and Forest Izecson Pereira Leite. He has a younger brother, Rodrigo Ifrano dos Santos Leite, known as [[Digão]], who has followed in Kaká's footsteps by playing football in [[Italy]] and is currently on loan with [[Serie B]] team [[Rimini Calcio|Rimini]], after having spent some time in the AC Milan youth squad.

The nickname ''Kaká'', from his native [[Portuguese language|Portuguese]], is pronounced as it is spelled. The accent would signify that the stress is on the second syllable. In [[Italian language|Italian]], the language of his current club team, the phonetic equivalent is written as ''Kakà.'' However, the player's shirt name is spelled KAKA' (with an [[Apostrophe (mark)|apostrophe]], rather than an [[Diacritic|accented]] 'A') for both his club in Milan and in the past for the Brazilian national team. In the [[2006 FIFA World Cup|World Cup 2006]], the back of his shirt read ''KAKÁ.'' ''Kaká'' is also of [[Portuguese]] descent.

Please sign and date your post (by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar).

An [http://forum.acmilan-online.com/printthread.php?t=1865&pp=40 internet discussion forum] explains the nickname as a commonly used shortened form of "Ricardo" in Portuguese. Supposedly, Kaká received his nickname from his little brother, Rodrigo, who could not pronounce the word "Ricardo" when they were young. Rodrigo called his older brother "Caca" which the latter later changed to "Kaká,"

'''Please add new topics at the bottom of the page.'''}}

{{Shortcut|[[WP:VPT]]<br>[[WP:VP/T]]}}

Kaká risked his life by badly jumping off a diving-board which caused him the fracture of a vertebra. This could have meant the end of his football career but he believes Jesus allowed him to recover and become the star footballer he now is. For this reason, every time he scores he points his fingers to the sky as a sign of thanks.

<!-- Please do not move these categories to the bottom of the page. If they are there, they will be removed by the process of archiving the page. -->

[[zh:Wikipedia:互助客栈/技术]]

[[Category:Wikipedia community forums|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[Category:Wikipedia features|{{PAGENAME}}]]

[[Category:To Village Pump (proposals)]]

==Personal life==

== [[Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive|Technical archive]] ==

In 2002 Kaká met Brazilian student Caroline Celico (born [[26 July]] [[1987]]) and they started dating soon after. Celico is from a wealthy [[São Paulo]] family with her mother, Rosangela Lyra, as the director of [[Christian Dior SA|Dior]] in Brazil and her father, Celso Celico, as an [[entrepreneur]]. The relationship survived Kaká's move from São Paulo to [[Italy]] in 2003, while she was still at school.

Kaká [[marriage|married]] Celico on [[23 December]] [[2005]] in São Paulo. About 600 people attended the wedding, including fellow Brazilian footballers [[Cafu]], [[Ronaldo]], [[Adriano Leite Ribeiro|Adriano]], [[Dida]], [[Júlio Baptista]] and (then) Brazilian national coach [[Carlos Alberto Parreira]]. Against the stereotypical trend of football stars, Kaká is proud he was a [[virginity|virgin]] when he married.[http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/worldcup06/2006/06/17/how_privileged_kaka_made_most.html]

Discussions older than 7 days (date of last made comment) are moved [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive|here]]. These discussions will be kept archived for 7 more days. During this

period the discussion can be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate. After 7 days the

discussion will be permanently removed.

== Texvc patches Career==

===International career===

Kaká made his international debut in January [[2002]] against [[Bolivia national football team|Bolivia]]. He was a part of the national squad which won the [[2002 FIFA World Cup]], but did not see much action playing just 19 minutes of the first round match against [[Costa Rica national football team|Costa Rica]]. In 2003, he was the captain for the Gold Cup tournament in the US and Mexico, leading Brazil to the second place and scoring key goals against Colombia. Later, he was in action at the {{Ca|2004}} and the [[Confederations Cup 2005|2005 Confederations Cup]], which were both won by Brazil, with Kakà scoring in the Confederation Cup final win over Argentina. (During the postmatch celebration, he and several of his teammates sported T-shirts with "Jesus Loves You" written in different languages.) He finished in joint tenth place in the voting for the [[2004 FIFA World Player of the Year|2004]] [[FIFA World Player of the Year]] award. In the [[2005 FIFA World Player of the Year|2005 competition]] he finished two places higher. More recently, he helped Brazil qualify for the [[2006 FIFA World Cup]]. Kaká has matured as a player and is currently considered as one of the best footballers from Brazil. He scored Brazil's first goal in the [[2006 FIFA World Cup]] against [[Croatia national football team|Croatia]] on 13 June 2006.

He wears number 8 for the national squad.

I don't know if this is an appropriate place to do so, but I'd like to draw attention to four texvc bugs that I wrote patches for a few weeks ago. Please could a developer review them and perhaps commit them? I'd especially like to see the colour patch in Wikipedia. Here are the bugs: [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1663 #1663 (colour support)], [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2026 #2026], [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3502 #3052], [http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4000 #4000]. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 01:42, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

===2006 World Cup===

In the first match for [[Brazil national football team|Brazil]], in group F, Kaká scored a goal in the 44th minute against [[Croatia national football team|Croatia]]. A left-foot strike from 25 meters led Brazil to the 1-0 victory. The media regarded him as the only member of the "magic quintet" &ndash; [[Adriano Leite Ribeiro|Adriano]], Kaká, [[Ronaldo]], [[Robinho]] and [[Ronaldinho]] &ndash; who produced in the match. Also against [[Ghana national football team|Ghana]] he wrote himself into the history books by assisting the goal that [[Ronaldo]] broke [[Gerd Muller]]'s [[FIFA World Cup|World Cup]] goalscoring record with. Unfortunately, he was unable to carry his momentum into the next match and Brazil were eliminated by [[French national football team|France]] in the quarter finals.

===Club career===

Kaká made his debut at [[São Paulo Futebol Clube|São Paulo FC]] in [[2001]] when he was 19 years old. In the first season, he scored 12 goals in 27 appearances, and 10 goals in 22 appearances in the following season. The performance attracted attention from European clubs, and it was Milan who won the race to sign him.

He joined AC Milan in [[2003]] for [[Dollar|$]]8.5m, a fee described as "peanuts" by club owner [[Silvio Berlusconi]]. Within a month, he became a regular for the first team, the place he has secured ever since. His first appearance came in a match at [[A.C. Ancona|Ancona]], which Milan won 2-0. In all, he scored 10 goals in 30 appearances that season, winning the Italian Serie A Championship and the [[European Super Cup]].

Kaká was an integral part of the five-man midfield in the [[Serie A 2004-05|2004-05]] season, usually playing in a withdrawn role behind striker [[Andriy Shevchenko]]. He scored 7 goals in 36 league appearances, and also won the [[Italian Super Cup]] with the club. Milan finished second to [[Juventus]] in the Serie A, and lost the [[UEFA Champions League 2004-05|UEFA Champions League]] final to [[Liverpool F.C.|Liverpool]] on [[penalty shootout (football)|penalty kicks]]. He was, however, voted the best midfielder in the European tournament. He also ended up in the ninth place in the [[2005]] [[Golden Ball]] standing, earning 19 votes.

One of Kaká's more famous goals was the one against [[Fenerbahçe SK]] in the AC Milan's first game in the [[UEFA Champions League 2005-06|2005-06 Champions League]], won 3-1 by the ''Rossoneri''. It had pundits draw instant comparisons to [[Diego Maradona]], as Kakà started his run from the midfield and skipped past three tackles before entering the area and finishing with a low shot under Fenerbahçe goalkeeper [[Volkan Demirel]].

On [[April 9]], [[2006]], he scored his first ''Rossoneri'' hat-trick against [[Chievo Verona]]. All three goals were scored in the second half.

His goal against croatia was one of the best goal ever in the world and he became very famous that night.He is also one of the best midfielder in the world.

:You should have had four emails corresponding to four commits I made. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 15:24, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

He scored a fantastic goal against fanabache fc and became famouse for his out standing skills.

::For some reason I only got one, but I noticed that you'd commited the changes. Thanks! Do you know when these will take effect in wikipedia? [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 18:16, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

===Club career statistics===

:::Whenever someone compiles/updates/synchronises. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 23:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable"

!rowspan="2" valign=bottom|Club

!rowspan="2" valign=bottom|Season

!colspan="2"|Domestic <BR>League

!colspan="2"|Domestic <BR>Cups

!colspan="2"|Continental <BR>Championship

!colspan="2"|Intercontinental <BR>Cup

!colspan="2"|Total

|-

!App

!Goals

!App

!Goals

!App

!Goals

!App

!Goals

!App

!Goals

|- align=center

|rowspan="4" align=center valign=center|'''[[AC Milan]]'''

|2005-06 || 35 || 14 || 2 || 0 || 12 || 5 || - || -

! 49

! 19

|- align=center

|2004-05 || 36 || 7 || 2 || 0 || 13 || 2 || - || -

! 51

! 9

|- align=center

|2003-04 || 30 || 10 || 4 || 0 || 13 || 2 || 1 || 0

! 48

! 12

|-

! Total!! 101 !! 31 !! 8 !! 0 !! 38 !! 9 !! 1 !! 0 !! 148 !! 40

|- align=center

|rowspan="4" align=center valign=center|'''[[São Paulo Futebol Clube|São Paulo FC]]'''

|2003 || 9 || 2 || || || 0 || 0 || - || -

! 9

! 2

|- align=center

|2002 || 22 || 9 || || || 0 || 0 || - || -

! 22

! 9

|- align=center

|2001 || 27 || 12 || || || 0 || 0 || - || -

! 27

! 12

|-

! Total!! 58 !! 23 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! 0 !! - !! - !! 58 !! 23

|-

! colspan="2" |Career Totals

! 159

! 54

! 8

! 0

! 38

! 9

! 1

! 0

! 206

! 63

|}

==Honours and Awards==

== What is Wikimedia's energy source? ==

* [[FIFA World Cup]], 2002

* [[FIFA Confederations Cup]], 2005

* [[Serie A]],2003-2004

* [[Italian Super Cup]] 2004

* [[European Supercup]], 2003

* ''[[Bola de Ouro]]'' (Best Player Of Brazilian League), 2002

* UEFA Club Football Awards 2004-05, Best Midfielder

==External links==

What energy source powers the Florida data HQ and by which power company? [[User:The lorax|The lorax]] 20:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

*[http://www.acmilan.com/en/InfoPage.aspx?id=25546 Profile at ACMilan.com]

:No idea, but you could call them and ask. http://www.powermedium.com/ --00:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

*[http://www.footballdatabase.com/index.php?page=player&Id=1042&b=true Kaká's career timeline, photo gallery and detailed statistics]

'''Fansites'''

*[http://www.ricard-kaka.com Ricard-Kaka.com - The Unofficial Ricardo Kaka Fan Site]

*[http://kakafans.net KAKAFANS.NET - The Best Kaka Fansite]

*[http://fifaworldcup.sporati.com/kaka-brazils-finest-discovery.page Kaka at Sporati: Brazils' Finest Discovery]

*[http://www.ricardokaka.co.nr One of the best fansite of Kaka]

*[http://www.rickykaka.com/ Polish fansite of Kaka]

::Do they provide their service in exchange for that giant advert about Wikipedia? [[User:Bluemoose|Martin]] 00:22, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

{{Brazil Squad 2002 World Cup}}

: The energy source for Wikipedia article content, on the other hand, is traditionally caffeine. ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 05:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC))

{{Brazil Squad 2006 World Cup}}

{{AC Milan Squad}}

::I disagree. I say chocolate. [[User:Sam Korn|<nowiki>[[Sam Korn]]</nowiki>]] 12:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Chocolate contains a small amount of caffiene! --[[User:Aussie Evil|Aussie Evil]] 21:52, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the developers are dosed up to the nines on whatever Jimbo's auntie's cousin's younger nephew's dog's half-brother's owner's sister's ex's parents can get hold of. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 08:05, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

== Categories and tags ==

Is it technically possible to make our category system work more like the tagging system used by [[flickr]], for example. This approach seems to display the information better, and would alleviate a number of problems related to ethnicity, nationality, gender and sexual orientation, focussing the categorisation debate upon each article's talk page rather than on the system itself. [[User:Steve block|Steve block]] [[User talk:Steve block|talk]] 20:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:Ignoring display issues for the moment, are you thinking this is fundamentally different than the category intersection and union suggestions that have been floating around for quite some time? I suspect categories in Wikipedia are actually implemented pretty much like tags at Flikr (database record for each category/tag including references of some kind to each article/photo), but Flickr lets you do set intersection and set union quite easily. Calling it a tag rather than a category, and (significantly) allowing intersection and union operations likely would avoid much of the angst we subject ourselves to. Databases are pretty good at intersection and union, but I don't know if the 200 per page limit we use (for category displays) is because of the expense of returning a large search set (and with a tag based mechanism there would likely be lots of cases where far more than 200 articles would have the same tag). So, technically possible? I think almost certainly. Easy from where we are now? Not so much. Seems like it might be worth bringing this up with the developers and seeing what they think. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 03:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::See, I have no idea what intersection and union thingummy's are. It was just a thought that occurred to me whilst I was debating the pros and cons of sub-categorising. It seemed that the way tags work, like flickr and del.icio.us, where you have one tag, and then on that page are other tags by which you can better sort the tags, that would be better for categorisation. That way, everything in [[:Category:Foo]] would be displayed, with the sub-categories allowing a reader to sort them. That sort of system would take away issues of sub-categorisation, although I guess another way around that would be to allow articles to be displayed in top level categories. Maybe another way to do it is to have nothing in top level categories '''but''' sub-categories, with one of the sub-categories being all foo. Sort of:

::*[[:Category:Foo]] contains no articles but the following sub-categories:

::*[[:Category:X-ish Foo]]

::*[[:Category:Y-ish Foo]]

::*[[:Category:Z-ish Foo]]

::*[[:Category:A-ish Foo]]

::*[[:Category:Foo in C]]

::*[[:Category:All Foo]]

::I don't really know about display issues. Would that need to change beyond a 200 per page limit? [[User:Steve block|Steve block]] [[User talk:Steve block|talk]] 15:03, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:Let's back up a bit. Wikipedia has categories that can include categories or articles. This leads to the structural issues we all know and <s>love</s> hate. I'm pretty sure Flickr doesn't actually have "subtags". The Wikipedia analogy would be articles can only have ''elemental'' categories (tags) and ''there would be no explicit subcategories''. In Flickr when you add another tag to the list of tags (to "better sort") you're selecting to display only those photos that have all the tags in your list (in database terms, this would be an intersection, i.e. show only things with tag1 and tag2 and tag3 ...). In a sense, you're making your own "subcategory", on the fly. I haven't used Flickr much, but I imagine if you start with tag1 the other tags you can add (to filter the list) are any other tag applied to any of the photos tagged with tag1. Back to Wikipedia - if categories worked like tags, an article like [[Enrico Fermi]] would be "tagged" with elemental categories only, i.e. [[:category:1901 births]], [[:category:1954 deaths]], [[:category:physicists]], [[:category:American people]], [[:category:Italian people]] (and some more), but NOT [[:category:American physicists]] (or any other "intersection" sort of category). From this article, to get to other American physicists, I think you'd have to click on [[:category:physicists]] or [[:category:American people]], and then add the other tag/category to what turns up from that display. Note that you could find physicists born in 1901 this way, too, without anyone ever having created a [[:category:physicists born in 1901]]. Rather than have any explicit "subset" categories, you'd build your own subset criteria. The display problem is that most "elemental" categories in Wikipedia would have thousands of articles (imagine [[:category:American people]], for example). We could display the first 200 articles that have all the categories/tags you've selected, with a count of how many articles match altogether. There are some details that would need to be worked out, but I think this is an excellent idea and would be a far more useful feature to readers than the current category feature (and it would drastically reduce the workload at [[WP:CFD]] as well). -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 16:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::Yeah, that's the way I was thinking it would work, but from my experience tags can only be one word, so [[:Category:1901]] would be one, [[:Category:Births]] another, [[:Category:American]] another and [[:Category:People]] another. It makes every word a category. Still, I think I'll mention it to a developer. [[User:Steve block|Steve block]] [[User talk:Steve block|talk]] 19:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't think single ''word'' would be the issue so much as single ''concept''. Tagging [[Enrico Fermi]] with [[:Category:1901]] and [[:Category:Births]] loses the concept of "born in 1901", i.e. if these are individual tags their intersection doesn't mean "born in 1901" (could be someone who died in 1901). Note that categories/tags could be placed in categories/tags as a way of doing a "union" operation. For example, the category/tag 'physicist" might itself be categorized/tagged as "scientist" so from [[Enrico Fermi]] you might be able to select "scientist" (lots and lots of results) and then "Italian people" to find all Italian scientists regardless of their specialty. Any "second level" tag (like scientist) would be a potential performance nightmare, but I can imagine ways to structure the software so that this wouldn't necessarily be a huge issue. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 04:48, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::::I posted it to wikitech, although I forgot to subscribe so I haven't followed up yet. You might be able to get your head around the responses better than me:

::::*[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-January/033695.html Thu Jan 19 20:47:36 UTC 2006]

::::*[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-January/033699.html Thu Jan 19 23:20:00 UTC 2006]

::::*[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2006-January/033701.html Fri Jan 20 00:23:08 UTC 2006]

::::I was also pointed to the following pages:

::::*[[meta:Del.icio.us-style Tags for MediaWiki]]

::::*[[meta:Using Ultimate Wiktionary for Commons]]

::::*[[meta:Multilingual MediaWiki]]

::::*[[meta:Semantic MediaWiki]]

::::They seem to come from the same angle but hit different targets, if you ask me. Anyway, I'll have to follow up back on the list, once I get my head around the information. [[User:Steve block|Steve block]] [[User talk:Steve block|talk]] 20:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Rich mentioned this discussion and invited me to comment. I'm wondering if we could create a system that would work this way, but also have structured categories as we have now. The problem with the system you've been contemplating is that there would be hundreds of tags, and you'd have to choose which one is important to the subject you are browsing. The advantage of our current system is that there is the editorial input of thousands of people deciding what articles go with each other and which paths through the infinite number of combinations of attributes make sense. I don't want to abandon this information, it is analogous to getting rid of an index in a book because you perform a quick text search. A good indexer makes decisions about what information someone will be looking for. Browsing through an index gives you a good idea of what is in the book. Browsing through our categories give a good idea of what is in Wikipedia. The system you describe doesn't inform the user about what is here, and what is important.

A combination approach might have the elemental categories we now have, but remove all subcategories. If articles are tagged, you could go to the elemental category and select some tags. So if you are looking at [[:Category:Film directors]] (my latest obsession because it should not have been broken into meaningless subcategories by nationality), you'd see all the film directors there are, and be able to do a simple database selection using the tags.

If you do have these tags, how would they be controlled? If each article has hundreds of tags, it may be very difficult to select the two or three that are meaningful. I'm wondering about having a system that severely limits the number of tags, and they would apply to all articles. To create a new tag it would have to be nominated for creation. You could have geographical tags, chronological tags, etc... but If there were hundreds of tags with trivial information (e.g. appeared on The Simpsons) it might become a waste of time. -- [[User:SamuelWantman|Samuel Wantman]] 02:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:I don't actually see why such tags/categories would actually have to be treated differently at the user/editor end, they could still display as categories and be inputted as categories, the only difference would be that when you click on a category it would, as you and I seem to both desire, display '''all''' articles ''tagged'' with that category. The category page would also list all other categories articles within the category are tagged with, so that a reader could then choose to sort the category to those specific subcategories. I see this as solving problems of categories such as [[:Category:Xian foo]], which leaves [[:Category:Foo]] stripped of all Xian foo and thus somewhat useless. As I read your response, that is also your wish. I would rather we did not create sub-categories like Xian foo, since they seem to disturb the categorisation structure somewhat, and they also introduce point of view observations into the classification system. If we merely have limited elemental or top level tags/categories, such as your suggestions, ones for geographical classification, for physical classification and so on, and allow the end user/reader to sort through these categories of their own volition. I would guess there would need to be some repositioning of the categorisation system, perhaps set it up as a classification system, and rename Categories for deletion to classifications for deletion, or perhaps create a classification WikiProject akin to WikiProject Stub sorting, where new classifications would need to be proposed and consensually agreed upon. [[User:Steve block|Steve block]] [[User talk:Steve block|talk]] 20:27, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Bug in diff? ==

This diff [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dutch_East_India_Company&diff=35730956&oldid=35562016] looks like a blanking, but isn't, see these diffs: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dutch_East_India_Company&diff=35730956&oldid=35178809], [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dutch_East_India_Company&diff=35562016&oldid=35178809]. Or does Wikipedia display the first diff as a blanking only for me? [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] [[User_talk:Kusma|(討論)]] 23:01, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

:Looks like a bug to me, too. I'll make sure there's a [[Wikipedia:MediaZilla]] bug report on it. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 01:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

:This was reported and, as far as we know, has been fixed. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 20:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

::Less than 24 hour turnaround! Thanks, Brion - you guys are awesome. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 02:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Great! The speed is really impressive. Thanks a lot! (And thanks to Rick for filing the bug report). [[User:Kusma|Kusma]] [[User_talk:Kusma|(討論)]] 02:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

== What links here and colons ==

Has anybody noted that wikilinks to images which are preceded by a colon (like this: [[:Image:ElectoralCollege2000-Large.png]]) don't appear in the "What links here" special page?

— [[User:DLJessup|DLJessup]] ([[User talk:DLJessup|talk]]) 03:25, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

: Aha, found the bug in BugZilla at [[bugzilla:00360#c4]]! I'll comment there.

: — [[User:DLJessup|DLJessup]] ([[User talk:DLJessup|talk]]) 06:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

==Edit counter broken==

[[WP:KATE|Kate's Tool]] doesn't seem to be working properly now. I get the following error:

<code>onoes!! some kind of database error occured ((1044, "Access denied for user 'kate'@'login-services.zedler.knams.wikimedia.org' to database 'enwiki_p'"))... please try again later

</code>

Any idea why? <TT>[[User:Crotalus horridus|Crotalus horridus]] <SMALL>([[User talk:Crotalus horridus|TALK]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crotalus horridus|CONTRIBS]])</SMALL></TT> 05:41, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

*Never mind, it seems OK now. <TT>[[User:Crotalus horridus|Crotalus horridus]] <SMALL>([[User talk:Crotalus horridus|TALK]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crotalus horridus|CONTRIBS]])</SMALL></TT> 05:58, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

== Page showing up as file ==

When I try to visit [[counter-recruitment]] my computer asks if I want to download a file. This isn't happening for any other page. Does anyone know why this is happening? [[User:Catsv|Catsv]] 07:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:Update: I am now having the same problem with [[Anthony Arnove]]; however, I am NOT having the problem with [[military counter-recruitment]], which redirects to [[counter-recruitment]]. [[User:Catsv|Catsv]] 07:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:Sounds like you have excessive line noise, which is causing random html pages to be misinterpreted as binary. Are you on a dial up connection, and if so has something changed recently with your phone line or modem setup? If this is the cause, I'd expect you to see this problem on numerous web pages, but not on the same web page every time.-[[User:Gadfium|gadfium]] 07:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

::Once in a while, someone somewhere has seen compressed pages incorrectly marked or something. Try putting ?action=purge on the end of the URL to force it to rerender. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 09:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

== Open proxy policy ==

<!-- 00:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC) -->

''This multipost removed. See [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Open_proxy_policy]] for discussion.''

==Questions re server load from images in userspace==

A policy is being prepared that may advise editors to remove templates with images from their userpages to lessen server load. Realizing that its hard enough to tune a system and near-impossible to explain it to civilians, still, I'm trying to understand this more. If anybody reads this who is familiar with the technical side of these issues and wants to reply that would be great, thanks. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] 22:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*To clarify -- I'm given to understand that the size of the image does not matter much, in other words a 45x45 image uses basically as much as a 450x450 image. Is this correct?

------

Replies:

:A large image uses more disk space, takes more bandwidth when transferred at full size, and requires more resources when being resized. It takes no more resources to refer to an already existing image of large size other than the network transfer.

:Generally, you should not worry much about little things like templates and "server load" at a policy level. If they're expensive, we'll either fix it or restrict it at a technical level; that's our responsibility. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*Does color depth make much difference? What about file format (jpg vs png)?

------

Replies:

:At the moment, very large PNG images are more expensive than JPEGs to resize due to the memory usage of the converted program. This is a technical issue and can be improved; we already have technical measures in place to restrict very large such images. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*Is it advisable to delete ''all'' images from userpages? Recognizing that this is an intersection of policy and system capacity, would an advisory such as "no more than five images is recommended on a userpage, including those in templates" help reduce server load?

------

Replies:

:Generally, if an image isn't usable in the encyclopedia you probably shouldn't upload it to Wikipedia. Remember that everything here must be freely licensed, and can and will be redistributed to and by third parties.

:If you don't want the picture of you, your cat, or your girlfriend to be copied, modified, reused, and redistributed by commercial and noncommercial publishers, don't put it on Wikipedia. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*Recognizing that this is policy issue, would system capacity issues possibly be addressed by advising editors to go easy on image use in ''articles''? (For instance, in a few articles I placed images more for page-design purposes than to illustrate a point. Should editors not do that? Only worry about it for likely-to-be-popular articles? Or not worry about it all?

------

Replies:

:As a design and usability matter, you should avoid unnecessary images which don't contribute something to the article.

:As a technical matter, it's our responsibility to keep the system running well enough for what the sites require. In other words: it's not a policy issue. If and when we need to restrict certain things, we'll do so with technical measures. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*What about images in community space (for example, the one at the top of this page). There aren't many but they are served often. Would it help to cut back on those? What about Images in signatures? (I know sigs are discussed somewhere but are the servers straining enough to make a crackdown advisable, I wonder.)

------

Replies:

:Community space is a small fraction of total hits, and stock images that don't change much are not terribly expensive to serve. Definitely not an issue.

:Signatures are a different matter because of the way they multiply; a bad sig can pollute thousands of pages and is hard to clean up. This isn't really specific to images, but generally we have been cracking down on too much fancy stuff in sigs due to their tendency to break when "clever markup tricks" rely on software bugs which get fixed. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

------

*I suppose this is unanswerable, but is there ''any'' way to quantify image load vis-a-vis our server capacity in a way that a civlian could understand enough to contribute in an informed way to a policy discussion?

------

Replies:

:"Policy" shouldn't really concern itself with server load except in the most extreme of cases; keeping things tuned to provide what the user base needs is our job. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::I'm curious about something sort of related: have you seen [[WP:AUM]]? Is this not a case where a technical solution should be provided before we go off killing/changing tons of templates (in ways that increase bandwidth usage, or render poorly on certain browsers)? —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 01:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::You should avoid metatemplates if they're ugly, hard to use, or fragile. That's just common sense; don't worry about "server load" for them.

:::For some very complex templates, people should probably be thinking about replacements for them such as proper data tables that will be easy for people to use and maintain, rather than hacking up ugly templates.

:::If someone's advising against "metatemplates" because they're ugly, fragile, and likely to break, listen to them. If someone's advising against them because they "increase server load", ask them for their benchmarks. I'd love to see them. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Jamesday has been widely interpreted (or perhaps overinterpreted) as suggesting meta-templates should be eliminated and his comments are responsible almost entirely for making [[WP:AUM]] into policy. Though I don't know for sure, the above questions may have been provoked by other [[User_talk:Jamesday#Templates_and_server_load|recent comments Jamesday made]] about limiting image use in templates. It seems like Jamesday plus a number of non-devs have been pushing for editting policies (such as [[WP:AUM]]) based on minimizing server load, but your comments above seem to indicate we should not be worrying about server issues. So which is it? [[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 02:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::I have to date refused requests to advocate the AUM "policy" based on server load because nobody's yet produced any evidence for this server load claim. While in a basic sense, calling two templates will involve twice as many template data loads as calling one, I've not seen any indication that this is significantly burdensome at realistic levels. If you can get James to produce a solid test for it, we'll talk about it. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::: Jamesday's concern in this area was more about invalidating page caches due to sub-sub-sub-templates being modified, and that change invalidating many pages. This, together with the level of complexity, fragility, and maintenance nightmare, are together why the [[WP:AUM]] is policy. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 02:26, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::: Since our software doesn't actually ''do'' that at this time, and to do it we'd first want to set up a background process for invalidations which will make it easy and inexpensive, I don't see that as a strong argument from the load perspective. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::::First of all, this '''is not''' policy. No consensus of Wikipedians agreed upon it, and clearly not even a consensus of developers agree upon it. Second of all, the sub-sub-sub templates you speak of (such as {{tl|qif}} should never (or only rarely) be modified). If the issue is only with sub-sub-sub templates, then it's a non-issue as far as I'm concerned. And in ''any event'', server/technical issues should not influence editorial decisions except in the most extreme of cases (which it appears this is not). —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 02:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:Just let me ask, what developer proposed this idea? How many developers have said it's a good idea? How can ordinary Wikipedians who nothing about the software deign to talk about making drastic changes to solve performance problems? You haven't made any measurements to evaluate the impact of this change and have no means of doing so, and so this is all just an elaborate theory that is more likely than not premature optimization in the wrong place. [[User:Deco|Deco]] 02:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::As far as I know, just Jamesday. If he's done any measurements he hasn't shown them to me. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::Brion: can you go tell that to the people on the talk page there and remove the policy tag then since its a policy pushed against any attempt at votes etc.

::::::Netoholic took a vauge set of statements from jamesday that weren't phrased at all as a demand and that he seemed to have little interest in substatiating with more details and used it to push that "policy" and it seems managed to get sufficiant support from gullible members of the admin team to push it into getting the policy tag against the wishes of much of the wider community. [[User:Plugwash|Plugwash]] 02:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::::I've said that numerous times in the past. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:32, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::::BTW i think you really need to consider some promotions, the reason we get stuck with hacks like the if templates (and now the arguably worse hiddenstructure css) and css and javascript hacks everywhere is because we have a lot of sysops and very few developers. The result is that its much faster to get things done in a way a sysop can do through hacks involving css and javascript than it is to actually get them done properly (moderately important patches can take weeks to get committed even if a patch is written, nice to have stuff takes even longer. [[User:Plugwash|Plugwash]] 03:23, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::::::We've had a couple new devs come on recently; Rob Church has been applying fixup patches and such. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 19:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::::::Wheee. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 07:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

------

* [[User:Avriette|Avriette]] poked me after reading about the image load issues, and suggested I ping you guys about about [[http://phase-n.com/technology/photon.html PhotoN]]. Is there any interest in looking at pulling in something like this?

--adam at phase-n dot com 15:51, 25 January 2006 (AEST)

------

== Template experts, please help with dead link wayback machine ==

Dear those of you who understand templates:

Please have a look at [[Template talk:Dlw#Problems with .27.3D.27 character in URLs|this problem]] with the {{Tl|dlw}} and {{Tl|dlw-inline}} templates, which are designed to make it easy to hook dead links into the [[Internet Archive]] Wayback Machine, used to fix [[Wikipedia:Dead external links]].

Apparently, if a dead URL has a "=" equals sign in it, it screws up the argument passing.

Is this reasonably fixable? Please respond at [[Template talk:Dlw#Problems with '=' character in URLs]]. Thank you! --''[[User:Nrcprm2026|James S.]]'' 23:10, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

:Apparent solution: put url in nowiki tags; recommended for bot use. --''[[User:Nrcprm2026|James S.]]'' 23:26, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

== What Type of amplifier ? ==

<!-- 00:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC) -->

What type of RF amplifier should I use to amplify an AM signal??

: Garnet amps rock. ''—[[User:Mzajac |Michael]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Mzajac |Z.]]&nbsp;<small>2006-01-21&nbsp;07:51&nbsp;Z</small>''

== Wikipedia Time ==

Out of interest, what time source are the wikimedia servers synced up to?

:[[UTC]]. They are physically located on the [[Florida]] peninsula, which is [[Eastern Standard Time]], or UTC-5. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 12:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:We use NTP internally to keep servers synced. I'm not sure offhand which external server we're using as a source. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 18:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

== Userpages on [[Special:Wantedpages]] ==

Is there a way to block user pages from being on this list? --[[User:Revolución|Revolución]] ''([[User talk:Revolución|talk]])'' 17:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:For what definition of "user pages" ? —{{User:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason/Sig/Real}} 04:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:I suspect the plea is in response to the huge number of links generated by anonymous users actually remembering to sign their contributions when they haven't created a user page. Would it be possible to add the now-familiar namespace-dropdown to this list? —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 15:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

== Call to function undefined error ==

This error seems to be popping up more and more today, first on the English site, and now on the Japanese site:

:'''Fatal error:'' Call to undefined function: dba_open() in '''/usr/local/apache/common-local/php-1.5/includes/Title.php''' on line '''447'''

Any ideas what is causing it? --[[User:Nihonjoe|nihon]] 18:49, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:There was a misconfigured server; I believe it's been taken care of. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 18:57, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::The Korean cluster, where the Japanese wikipedia is hosted, was also broken. I've disabled the interwiki cache feature there for the moment so they're working again. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 19:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Thank you much. :-) --[[User:Nihonjoe|nihon]] 21:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

== Shortcuts for policy and guideline templates ==

I've just added optional shortcut parameters to {{tl|policy}}, {{tl|guideline}}, {{tl|style-guideline}}, {{tl|Wikipedia subcat guideline}}, {{tl|proposed}}, {{tl|rejected}}, and {{tl|historical}}. To display a shortcut, just add the shortcut in an additional parameter: <nowiki>{{policy|WP:SHORT}}</nowiki> gives

{| class="messagebox"

|-

| [[Image:Green check.png|30px]]

||'''This page is an [[Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines|official policy]] on the English Wikipedia.''' It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. [[Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages|Feel free]] to edit the page as needed, but please make sure that changes you make to this policy reflect [[Wikipedia:Consensus|consensus]] before you make them.

|class="noprint hiddenStructureWP:SHORT" style="width: 1em"|

!id="shortcut" class="noprint hiddenStructureWP:SHORT" style="border: 1px solid #999; background: #fff; margin: 0 0 .5em 1em; text-align: center; padding: 5px"|

<small>[[Wikipedia:Shortcut|Shortcut]]:<br />WP:SHORT</small>

|}[[Category:Wikipedia official policy|{{PAGENAME}}]]

<nowiki>{{Wikipedia subcat guideline|subcat|sortkey|WP:SHORT}}</nowiki> needs the shortcut to be its third parameter.

If no shortcut is specified, the box is hidden by CSS. I've redirected {{tl|policy2}} and {{tl|guideline with shortcut}}, which were created by [[User:Stevage|Stevage]], back to {{tl|policy}} and {{tl|guideline}}, respectively; the syntax is backwards-compatible with these templates. [[User:Alerante|æle]] <small>[[User talk:Alerante|✆]]</small> 19:12, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:Nice. Thanks. [[User:JesseW/sig|JesseW, the juggling janitor]] 05:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::The {{tl|guideline with shortcut}} inclusions have all been changed to {{tl|guideline}}. [[User:The Neokid|The Neokid]] 20:44, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

== Audio links with loudspeaker ==

Can I get some comments on [[MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#A_solution|this proposed addition to the css]]? I want to add an .audiolink class to put clickable loudspeakers next to audio files (only where desired, of course).

The current implementation looks like this:

* [[Image:loudspeaker.png]] <span class="plainlinksneverexpand">[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Es-Argentina.ogg pronunciation]</span>

Clicking the loudspeaker goes to the loudspeaker image page instead of the audio file. (Try it. See the big warning?) With the addition of this audiolink class, the loudspeaker would be added as part of the link through css, and would be clickable as expected.

I don't think it could possibly hurt anything, but ''"Any changes to Monobook.css or Common.css should be first proposed to Wikipedia:Village Pump."'' — [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 20:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

:I think {{tl|click}} does what you're asking for. [[User:Alerante|æle]] <small>[[User talk:Alerante|✆]]</small> 22:15, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

::# It doesn't work.

::# A css class is superior to a kludgy complex template. — [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 05:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Look at [[bugzilla:539]] if you haven't already; there's work on allowing images to link somewhere other than the description page. [[User:Alerante|æle]] <small>[[User talk:Alerante|✆]]</small> 21:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Also [[bugzilla:1578]] and [[bugzilla:3726]], which I think is a little different. — [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 03:39, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:'''Support'''. Sounds good to me. (And yes, it should be a system image. Go ask a dev about it, I'm sure they wouldn't mind.) —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 07:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::Some people wanted to change it, though; saying a blue loudspeaker would be better, etc. So maybe we should leave it editable for now? — [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] 03:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Is there a standardized loudspeaker symbol somewhere in [[Unicode]]? If so, could we use that? --[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 06:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

==[[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Usability/Main_Page/Draft#Forging ahead - What about main page configurability?|What about main page configurability?]]==

I have some questions about the possibility of users configuring the main page to fit their own tastes, and was wondering what options were available to users right now for accomplishing this. Please click on the heading above to see my questions on this subject. I look forward to reading your replies. --[[User:Go for it!|Go for it!]] 23:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

==The protection message is wrong==

Until yesterday, when editing a semi-protected page, there was, quite correctly, no warning message at all. Now, it says that it has been locked so only admins can edit it, which is really very very wrong indeed. Has someone been entertaining themselves in MediaWiki: space again, or has something changed in MediaWiki itself? Either way, could the relevant person/people try to fix it? I've alredy seen a couple of confused talk page messages regarding this, and the problem is something like 24hrs old. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small>^{[[User talk:Splash|talk]]}</small> 02:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:It looks like [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagewarning]] is being used for semi-protection as well. I'd strongly suggest using a seperate message for semi-protection (something like [[MediaWiki:Semiprotectedpagewarning]] maybe). —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 02:17, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Yes. But when/why was this changed. Like I said, until yesterday, there was no warning at all. And no warning at all is the right move, since why do people care if it is semi'd and they can edit it? If they can't they get a "view source" button and a message anyway, and there's no need to tell people ''already editing it'' that they are allowed to do so! -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small>^{[[User talk:Splash|talk]]}</small> 02:21, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I don't think it's inappropriate to remind people the article is semi-protected. I'm sorry we disagree on that. But at least we seem to agree that using [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagewarning]] is the wrong idea.. —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 02:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::::We have a tag warning about the protection, and I don't see why anyone who can edit the article cares, really, since they are still encouraged to edit it, unlike admins in the case of a full-protected page. What should we do about the message anyway: clearly, it can't stay in the broken state it is. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small>^{[[User talk:Splash|talk]]}</small> 02:49, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::I think we should compromise: add a new message for semi-protection warnings but have it default to blank. If/when it comes up, we can add the message later (but it should probably be in MediaWiki regardless so other MW users can customize it to their liking). —[[User:Locke Cole|Locke Cole]] • [[User talk:Locke Cole|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Locke Cole|c]] 05:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

You realise the software has no concept of "semi protection", right? It's just our name for a specific configuration set that allows us to add a protection level that requires an account to be autoconfirmed. I have a feeling this problem has arisen in response to a bug fix I committed last week, so I'll get onto providing some sort of solution. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 07:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:All right, here's what we have. It is my fault, but I'm not sure exactly how best to fix it, so I want some user input. The problem is this; there are an indefinite number of levels of protection given site configuration. So what is it you want to see? Separate notices would be a mess, and be quite unfeasible. Would you prefer to see no warning, or perhaps just details on who can do what - i.e. print out the current protection level, with a link to the protected page guidelines. I'm in your hands, metaphorically, so let's hear it? [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 11:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

::Previously there was no message when the page was semi'd and the usual message when it was full'd. I thought that was working ok, it having stood without comment for a month or so. If we feel we absolutely can't go back to that (and we should, imo, because "no message" is what autoconfirmed users get when they execute a move) then a human-friendly message giving the current level(s) would be better. Since there is no software concept of semi, though, human-friendly might be impossible, in which case nothing at all is probably better. At present, we have a both-ways message, which I suppose is kind-of alright too. That's not terribly helpful is it? -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small>^{[[User talk:Splash|talk]]}</small> 12:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:::The technical explanation for the change is that I fixed the function which checks for protection of any nature so that it works with the new protection system. As a side-effect, the message now shows up for all. I'm tending towards a brief reminder of the page's current editing restrictions unless there are objections. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 10:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Ideally, I think the warning message would list the restrictions:

:::The following protections have been applied to this page:

:::*Editing: Block new and unregistered users

:::*Moving: Block all non-admin users

:::[[User:Demi|Demi]] ^{[[User_talk:Demi|T]]}/_{[[Special:Contributions/Demi|C]]} 16:08, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

==Help with code==

Hello, the following is for the [http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huvudsida Swedish Wikipedia's Main Page]:

<p style="margin: 0.5em 0 0; text-align: center;

font-size: 125%; line-height: 1.3">

Välkommen till [[Wikipedia]], den fria encyklopedin som [[Wikipedia:Hur_man_redigerar_en_sida|alla kan redigera]].

</p>

<p style="margin:0 0 0.5em;text-align:center;font-size:94%">''[[Wikipedia:Välkommen|Introduktion]]&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;[[Special:Allpages|A&ndash;Ö]]&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;[[Wikipedia:Grundprinciperna|Grundprinciper]]&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;[[Wikipedia/FAQ|Vanliga frågor]]&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;Antal artiklar: [[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]]''

</p>

<inputbox>

type=search

width=50

buttonlabel=Gå till

searchbuttonlabel=Sök

break=no

</inputbox>

<p style="text-align: center; margin:0 0 0.7em; line-height: 1.6; margin-top: 0" class="plainlinks">

[[:Kategori:Filosofi|Filosofi]] | [[:Kategori:Geografi|Geografi]] | [[:Kategori:Historia|Historia]] | [[:Kategori:Kultur|Kultur]] | [[:Kategori:Matematik|Matematik]] | [[:Kategori:Naturvetenskap|Naturvetenskap]] | [[:Kategori:Personer|Personer]] | [[:Kategori:Religion|Religion]] | [[:Kategori:Samhälle|Samhälle]] | [[:Kategori:Språk|Språk]] | [[:Kategori:Teknik|Teknik]]

</p>

How do you make the buttons lay next to the search box, not under [http://search.yahoo.com/ (ex.)]? [[User:MartinHagberg|MartinHagberg]] 12:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:There seems to be no option for this using inputbox (see [[m:Help:Inputbox]]), and since this is an extension in the MediaWiki source (and you can't include forms in raw HTML) to get it changed you'd have to file an enhancement request using [[wikipedia:MediaZilla]]. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 16:19, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Looking at the page, I see the issue has been addressed. —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 07:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:::With a recently added "break=no" parameter to inputbox. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 14:58, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Which I've implemented above as an example. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 10:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

== CVS Problem ==

Is there a problem with the CVS? Last night I tried to download MediaWiki 1.6, and today I tried to download the extensions, and both times I got the following error:

cvs.exe [checkout aborted]: Error reading from server

cvs.sourceforge.net: 0: No such file or directory

If this is just a problem for me, could somebody help me fix it? Thanks, [[User:Shardsofmetal|Shardsofmetal]] ^{[ [[User talk:Shardsofmetal|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Shardsofmetal|Contribs]] ]} 16:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:Sometimes sf.net anon CVS buggers out temporarily for some reason. &mdash; [[User:Ilyanep|<span style="font-variant:Small-caps;color:black;">Ilyan</span>]][[WP:EA|<span style="font-variant:Small-caps;color:green;">e</span>]][[User:Ilyanep|<span style="font-variant:Small-caps;color:black;">p</span>]][[User talk:Ilyanep| <span style="font-variant:Small-caps;color:#808080;">(Talk)</span>]] 17:59, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

SourceForge's anonymous CVS servers have a reputation of being intermittent. Give it another go. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 07:53, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

== What happened to the editpage template links? ==

I've always found these extremely useful to spot template use and quickly get to a box I needed to correct, or to use in anotehr article. Is there a particular reaon they were removed? It seems to be pretty inconsistent,sometimes showing up, sometimes not (maybe that is linked to the whatlinkshere bug?) [[User:Circeus|Circeus]] 17:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:Due to software changes to better handle templates, some articles may not have had their database entries updated yet and may not show them temporarily. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 20:38, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

== Edit summary on rollback ==

There's no way to write an edit summary when doing a rollback. Is it possible to create that? - [[User:DavidWBrooks|DavidWBrooks]] 18:07, 22 January 2006 (UTC).

:The one-click rollback link exists to speed fixups of massive vandalism; an edit summary interstitial would destroy its usefulness. If you wish to add an edit summary, you are probably dealing with something other than self-obvious massive vandalism. Go through the usual history / old version / edit route; it's just two extra clicks. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 20:37, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

== Possible Signature Vulnerability ==

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but it appears to me that there is a severe security problem in letting users choose their own signatures. This is because people in Wikipedia use the links in the signature. However, using javascript and [[AJAX]], I believe that an attacker could take the user to the desired ___location as well as load a webpage in the background. For instance, a vandal could change his/her signature to load Special:Makesysop with the proper parameters in the background to make a vandalbot username an admin while loading the desired page in the foreground. If that user then left an incendiary comment on the homepage of a bureaucrat, prompting the bureaucrat to click a link in the signature, then there could be quit a bit of damage done to Wikipedia. [[User:Where|Where]] [[User talk:Where|(talk)]] 20:33, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:Sigs are wikitext, not HTML, and thus cannot do anything disallowed in wikitext. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 20:35, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Even if possible, Special:Makesysop requires that a HTTP POST request is sent to the server to process form output. So the exploit as described would not produce a result. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 07:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:::It's largely academic here, but it's worth pointing out that you can submit POST requests with AJAX. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 05:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

== Subpages ==

Is there a way to see a tree representation of any page, showing its children, etc.? - [[User:ElAmericano|ElAmericano]] | [[User talk:ElAmericano|talk]] 20:42, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

:The only way I know is to use [[Special:Allpages]] and display pages starting at the one your looking at. - [[User:Trevor macinnis|Trevor MacInnis]] <small>([[User talk:Trevor macinnis|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Trevor macinnis|Contribs]])</small> 20:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Pages on Wikipedia don't have children, as there is no clear hierarchy. You may find [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29|Special:Whatlinkshere]] useful, or [http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/CategoryTree.php]. The first shows all pages that link here, while the second allows you to browse the categories with ease. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 21:01, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

::Wouldn't you do that with [[Special:Prefixindex]]?

:::That worked. Thanks for the advice, guys. - [[User:ElAmericano|ElAmericano]] | [[User talk:ElAmericano|talk]] 04:43, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

==Cursor in search box==

can the main wikipedia page be modified such that when you first access it..the cursor starts blinking in the search box(so that you don't have to use the mouse to point at the search box to input a search term){{unsigned|86.42.6.177|00:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)}}

== Circular redirect? ==

What happens if you make a circular redirect? I don't want to break [[WP:POINT]] to test it myself, but I thought maybe someone knows... -- <font color="#668353">[[User:Stillnotelf|stillnotelf]]</font> <font color="#ff4487">[[User talk:Stillnotelf|has a talk page]]</font> 03:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:MediaWiki only follows the first redirect, so nothing particularly bad would happen. I think all systems which support redirects either have a limit as to how many they'll follow, which is very cheap computationally, or have an algorithm to detect circular references.-[[User:Gadfium|gadfium]] 04:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::Mediawiki only follows the first redirect. As (in case you were wondering) for circular templates (e.g, template 1 includes template 2, and template 2 includes template 1) - as of mediawiki 1.5 these are automatically detected and quashed. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] 04:12, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:Categories are more complex. There are valid cases where category A includes category B which includes category A again, or where category C includes itself. With the current software, that poses no problems, but it does significantly complicate building a tool to display a view of a category and all its subcategories. It might be the reason why no such tool has yet appeared.-[[User:Gadfium|gadfium]] 05:25, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Can we assume that the template transclusion system is similarly protected?

If &#x7B;&#x7B;A&#x7D;&#x7D; contains &#x7B;&#x7B;B&#x7D;&#x7D; and ''vice versa'', what will appear?

And what happens if &#x7B;&#x7B;A&#x7D;&#x7D; contains itself?

(In the spirit of [[WP:BEANS]] I have no intention of finding out without a written disclaimer from every last developer and a promise that they will physically protect me should anything disastrous happen :-)

HTH HAND —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 15:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:It is, as Raul654 wrote above. The software will refuse to let a page transclude itself, either directly or indirectly. See [[User:Ilmari Karonen/sandbox/foo]] for an example. This will happen even if the template call includes parameters. —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 16:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

::Inside noinclude [[User:CBDunkerson/Sandbox4|it works]] ([http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:CBDunkerson/Sandbox4&oldid=35616370 permalink]). --[[User talk:Adrian Buehlmann|Adrian Buehlmann]] 17:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:::That's true. It's a useful feature too, since it allows useful examples to be shown for parametrized templates, as in [[Template:Stars]]. —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 19:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Vertical alignment bug in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]? ==

The style definition in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] doesn't seem to strictly adhere to the [http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ CSS2 specification]. The germane part of the style sheet is as follows:

<pre>

.infobox tr {

vertical-align: top;

}

</pre>

The CSS specification, in ''[http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visudet.html#line-height Section 10.8. Line height calculations: the 'line-height' and 'vertical-align' properties]'', states that the ''vertical-align'' style element applies to inline-level and '''table-cell''' elements. ''[Emphasis added.]'' Further, the ''vertical-align'' examples in the specification at ''[http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/tables.html Section 17. Tables]'' are all applied to the table cell elements <code>&lt;td&gt;</code> and <code>&lt;th&gt;</code> rather than to the row-level element <code>&lt;tr&gt;</code> as is done in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]].

The fact that some browsers allow applying the ''vertical-align'' style element to the <code>&lt;tr&gt;</code> tag does not mean that browsers are required to support this variation from the standard, and some browsers in fact do not do so. This leads to variation in appearance of the infobox text from that which was desired.

It appears that a standards-compliant style sheet ''should'' include the following styling in place of what's there today:

<pre>

.infobox td,

.infobox th {

vertical-align: top;

}

</pre>

This change would seem to produce the desired consistent alignment behavior in a browser-independent way. I therefore propose it for discussion. &mdash; [[User:JonRoma|JonRoma]] 03:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

: Totally agree with this change, and more. We also need to add some padding to the cells, since that is done manually in almost ever infobox anyway. Please see [[:simple:MediaWiki:Common.css]] and copy all of the Infobox template style section over to ours. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 14:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::JonRoma's request done. Adding padding to the infobox would mean that we'd have to go and change all the infobox templates on this end. Is someone prepared to go and do that? <span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color: #33C;">howch</span>]][[WP:EA|<span style="color:#0F0">''e''</span>]][[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C">ng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

::: Yes, where needed. The change is very subtle. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 05:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:::: Done. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color: #33C;">howch</span>]][[WP:EA|<span style="color:#0F0">''e''</span>]][[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C">ng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 22:24, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

== italic redirect in [[Special:Allpages]] ==

Could someone add the following line to monobook.css?

.allpagesredirect {font-style: italic}

It will cause redirect to be diplayed italic in [[Special:Allpages]]. Cheers, —''[[User:R.Koot|Ruud]]'' 06:50, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

: Probably a safe bet to add to [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. -- [[User:Netoholic|Netoholic]] [[User talk:Netoholic|@]] 14:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::Done. <span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''[[User:Howcheng|<span style="color: #33C;">howch</span>]][[WP:EA|<span style="color:#0F0">''e''</span>]][[User:Howcheng|<span style="color:#33C">ng</span>]]''' <small>{[[User talk:Howcheng|chat]]}</small></span> 00:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

== Redlinks with lineouts ==

Did something change for others that they are seeing redlinks with lineouts, or is just me? I checked monobook.css and didn't see a change but I'm just wondering if it is something one of the tools I used introduced (checked all the ones I could remember) or something else. Thanks! (I sort of don't like it but am not quite sure where to start digging on how to change it back for myself) ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 14:13, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:What's a lineout? --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:25, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

A lineout (or maybe strikeout is the term?) looks sort of this:

* not lined out: [[some random redlink that doesn't really exist]] (shows as red text with an underline)

* lined out: <s>[[some random redlink that doesn't really exist]] </s> (shows as red text struck out in black, with an underline. What I was seeing looked like that except with no underline and the strikeout line was red...)

It stopped doing it by the way. Maybe it was just me since no one else said anything... so if so, sorry to bother! ++[[User:Lar|Lar]]: [[User_talk:Lar|t]]/[[Special:Contributions/Lar|c]] 18:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

==User Page = Tiny Text==

All of a sudden, a few minutes ago I made an edit to my userpage and everything on that page including the stuff I have added AND the "navigation" panal to the right, tabs at the top etc (User interface) is now in extremly small text. I reverted to the last edit but everything is still teeny tiny, even microscopic in some areas. Somehow, this is linked to my user account because when I log out of my user account and veiw my user page, everything is normal. Also, this ONLY happens on the main user page. My discussion page, watchlist, contributions ..and every other wikipedia page (normal articles e tc) are fine. But when I'm logged in, my user page is so small I can't read most of it. Any ideas? --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|^{[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]} 19:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

: Ok update: Right after I clicked "Save page" to the abvove edit, it happened again on THIS PAGE. Not only is everything teeny tiny but all the text scrolls way off the page and I have no horizontal scroll bar to view it. Something funny is going on :( --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|^{[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]} 20:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:Just to check, its me again, not logged in, and everything is fine. But still, soon as I log in - my UI and everything goes nuts. --[[User:24.250.139.148|24.250.139.148]] 20:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::I'm puzzled... are you using Firefox? IE? or what? -[[User:Kmf164|Kmf164]] (<small>[[User_talk:Kmf164|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Kmf164|contribs]]</small>) 20:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:::I'm using IE 6 And, when I made the last comment above - it happened again after I clicked "save page" again. I've been editing on Wikipedia for months and this is just perplexing. Nothing like this has ever happened before. Basically it looks like, every time I edit any page, whatever user I am logged in as (Nahallac or my IP address) - everything on that page, especially the UI gets fudged up. --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|^{[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]} 20:11, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::::Same thing happened to me when I added my previous comment on this page. Didn't matter whether I used Firefox or IE, either. Somebody must be fiddling with the monobook.css or something. -[[User:Kmf164|Kmf164]] (<small>[[User_talk:Kmf164|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Kmf164|contribs]]</small>) 20:15, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Happened again. -[[User:Kmf164|Kmf164]] (<small>[[User_talk:Kmf164|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Kmf164|contribs]]</small>) 20:16, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Well, as long as its not something *I* did. But now I have another problem, I was going to reset the "skin" I use (which is the normal one) in my preferences, and I changed it to mono something or other and hit save. And I hate this skin and now I can't change it back because when I hover over the link to "skins" in the preference section ..its not a link. I can't click on it. I have no way to get back into the skin settings to put it back. I feel so pathetic today :( --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|^{[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]} 20:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:::::Fixed the 2nd problem in case anyone cares, but I sure hope the fix the teeny tiny text thing soon. I can't read anything :( --[[User:Nahallac Silverwinds|Naha]]|^{[[User talk:Nahallac Silverwinds|(talk)]]} 20:46, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

::::::Good you fixed the skin preferences problem. I can't figure out what's causing the text size problem. -[[User:Kmf164|Kmf164]] (<small>[[User_talk:Kmf164|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Kmf164|contribs]]</small>) 20:51, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:If it's still happening, can you provide a screenshot please? I don't see any problems currently with IE 6.

:Domas added an optimization to skip some HTML validity checks on user-interface messages. If people were writing bogus markup (especially unclosed tags) into the MediaWiki:* pages, this could now produce various ugly output. Hopefully they've been fixed by now. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:24, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Recent changes ATOM/RSS feed window size ==

''(I raised this on the [http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l wikitech] mailing list, but didn't get any replies, so am posting here as well).''

I've been fiddling a bit with the (Atom) recent changes feed at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=atom. I'm interested in whether a tool like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:CryptoDerk/CDVF could use the feed, so that the diff for each edit could be quickly viewed inside the tool, rather than linked to externally.

It seems though that the combination of the default window size (50) and the apparent refresh rate of the feed in the cache (about 20 seconds) means that there are changes that will fall through the gap once you have more than about ~2.5 changes a second (which seems to happen fairly often now). This means right now it's not really usable in a tool like CDVF (and perhaps not usable in general).

What are the future plans for this feed? Can it (will it) be feasibly maintained in a useful state as the edit rate grows further? No doubt there are several approaches that could be taken (steadily increase window size, refresh cache more often, split feed out into namespaces, ...), but all involve placing greater load on the server. [[User:WhiteCat|WhiteCat]] 20:05, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

:The RSS/Atom feeds are meant to show a selection of recent items; a vandalism-review queue system really should be written from the ground up and is a completely separate matter. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 02:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== Article needs fixed coding ==

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_grade [[User:Andrewdt85|Andrewdt85]] 05:50, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:I fixed the external link syntax. You get to fix the misplaced [[:wikt:sentence fragment|sentence fragment]] yourself. —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 10:32, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

==Higher limit for special pages?==

As I suppose is known, most (not all) of the Special pages will only display only the first and second batch of 500 (unless its just my machine?). This isn't a problem for ophans, widows, new pages, etc but it IS a problem for short pages, which are ranked by size rather than alphabetically or chronologically. Thus we can only see the shortest 1000 pages (right now, that takes me 69 bytes). I find short page patrol useful, but I think if I could get at pages up to 200 bytes or so I would find a rich vein of unstubbed, uncatagorized, deletable, and easily-fixable pages. I mentioned this as a bug report some time back.

Would it be possible to allow special pages, or at least short pages, to diplay more than the first two groups of 500? Thanks for your consideration. [[User:Herostratus|Herostratus]] 14:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

== <nowiki><noinclude></noinclude></nowiki> ==

<nowiki><noinclude></noinclude></nowiki>

Is there anywhere in Wikipedia where there is a complete description of how <nowiki><noinclude></noinclude></nowiki> are supposed to work? Also, the other special Wikipedia HTML codes (such as <nowiki><nowiki></nowiki></nowiki>)? Thanks.

<font color="#FF0000"><b>&rArr;</b></font> _{[[User:Normxxx|normxxx]]}<font color="#FF0000"><b>|</b></font> ^{<font color="#FF00FF">[[User_talk:Normxxx|talk]]</font>} <font color="#FF0000"><b>&rArr;</b></font> <font color="#FFBB00">[[Special:Emailuser/Normxxx|email]]</font> 18:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

:I don't know of any complete list of extensions. The purpose of noinclude tags is to include markup in a template which is shown on the template page itself but not on the pages into which it is transcluded. It is often used to add descriptive text on how the template is used, or to add it to a category for certain types of templates. Similarly, text marked <nowiki><includeonly></nowiki> is shown on pages the template is transcluded into, but not on the template page itself, and is useful for categories (since you usually don't want the template itself in the category). [[User:Deco|Deco]] 19:29, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

::Include and noinclude are described in the "Noinclude and includeonly" section of [[m:help:template]]. nowiki is part of the wikimarkup syntax, described at [[Help:Editing]]. Extensions in general are described at [[m:MediaWiki extensions]], although not all extensions are installed at all mediawiki sites. I'm not sure where the list of extensions installed at, say, en.wikipedia.org is. Perhaps someone else who watches this page might be able to help out. -- [[user:Rick Block|Rick Block]] <small>([[user talk:Rick Block|talk]])</small> 02:22, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:::There's [[Special:Version]] which, I think at least, speaks only about enwiki. -[[User:Splash|Splash]]<small>^{[[User talk:Splash|talk]]}</small> 05:48, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

== 12 hours watchlist ==

I have experienced a switch from default 3 days to default 12 hours watchlist at no: and nn:, but not at en:. If I select 3 days explicitly and then hit "hide my edits", I'm back to 12 hours. This happened to me and others at no: on 19 January and has not improved yet, and then at nn: on 24 January. I've not had any problems at en: so far. Have there been any software updates recently or any other changes that could explain this? --[[User:Eddideigel|Eddi]] <small>([[User talk:Eddideigel|Talk]])</small> 04:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:Here's a chunk of CVS Mediawiki code that seems to explain it:

<pre><nowiki>

if( is_null($days) || !is_numeric($days) ) {

$big = 1000; /* The magical big */

if($nitems > $big) {

# Set default cutoff shorter

$days = $defaults['days'] = (12.0 / 24.0); # 12 hours...

} else {

$days = $defaults['days']; # default cutoff for shortlisters

}

}

</nowiki></pre>

:So if you would otherwise have over 1000 items displayed, it seems that it restricts you to 12 hours by default. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 04:08, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:... although there is arguably a minor bug here, in that the link on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Watchlist?days=3 which says "Hide my edits" should probably keep the 3 day limit. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 04:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

::I have more than 1000 pages on my watchlists at no: and nn:, and I may incidentally have passed the limit on 19 and 24 January, respectively. But the number of items displayed for 3 days is far from 1000, even counting talk pages, so the 1000 limit is probably on the number of watched pages, not displayed items &ndash; or it may be an even bigger bug. --[[User:Eddideigel|Eddi]] <small>([[User talk:Eddideigel|Talk]])</small> 04:21, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

:::You're right. It looks like $nitems is the number of pages in your watchlist excluding talk pages. I'm guessing that things are done this way for performance reasons. [[User:Lupin|'''Lupin''']]|[[User_talk:Lupin|talk]]|[[Wikipedia:Tools/Navigation popups|popups]] 12:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Had the same problem when my watchlist got up there. Simplest solution: set your watchlist the way you want it, with the proper "&" variables in the URL (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Watchlist&days=3&hideOwn=1, for example), then bookmark/fave it -- putting it on the "Bookmarks" toolbar in Firefox or the "Links" toolbar in IE gives you one-click access to your favorite watchlist view (and makes it that much easier to compulsively check for bad edits during your day....). Or you can set that URL as one of your browser's start page (Firefox allows multiple start pages) -- this will also get you extra points on the official [[Wikipedia:Are You a Wikipediholic Test|Wikipediholic test]].... &mdash; [[User:CatherineMunro|Catherine]]\^{[[User_talk:CatherineMunro|talk]]} 04:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

==Custom version of [[MediaWiki:Edittools]]?==

Is it possible to utilize the userspace Javascript/CSS files to create a custom version of the character insertion tools? I'd like to make it so that I don't see some of the foreign-language characters that I never use, and also add some macros for commonly used functions like <code><nowiki>*{{subst:test1}} ~~~~</nowiki></code>. I've managed to add a couple of options via hacks, but I'm not very satisfied with the results. I'd like to be able to replace the whole thing. <TT>[[User:Crotalus horridus|Crotalus horridus]] <SMALL>([[User talk:Crotalus horridus|TALK]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crotalus horridus|CONTRIBS]])</SMALL></TT> 00:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:My suggestion is to use the code '''#editpage-specialchars { display: none; }''' to hide the main one then copy the code from the main one over to your own css file and butcher it mercilessly as you see fit (making sure to remove or change the div id) and that should in theory at least give you your own custom special-chars box. <small>[[User:Jtkiefer|<font color="red">Jtkiefer</font>]]^{[[User talk:Jtkiefer|<font color="orange">T</font>]] | [[Special:Contributions/Jtkiefer|<font color="green">C</font>]] | [[Special:Emailuser/Jtkiefer|<font color="blue">@</font>]]}</small> ---- 01:44, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

::What about a setting in 'preferences', to allow users to choose a layout. I much the prefer the now reverted dropdown box, and since it works on my system, I'd like to be able to use it. -- [[User talk:Ec5618|Ec5618]] 10:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

== search bug? ==

Please confirm this bug, then post it to the appropriate place (Bugzilla?).

When I type

magnetotactic

into the little search bar on the left and punch the "Search" button (or the "Go" button),

I get a page that includes

----

Results 1-4 of 4

* Lodestone

...cteria (Italian Wikipedia) had learned the trick. Magnetotactic bacteria build miniature magnets inside themselve...

Relevancy: 11.8% - 1.3 kB (185 words) - 21:29, 12 January 2006

* Sense

Relevancy: 3.6% - 12.6 kB (1894 words) - 17:42, 14 January 2006

----

I expected it to *either* say "Results 1-2 of 2", then list 2 results,

or else say "Results 1-4 of 4", and then list 4 results.

But it seems to claim there are 4 results, and then only give 2 of them.

Another bug is that neither "2" nor "4" are correct. ''At least'' 5 articles (perhaps more) use the word "magnetotactic":

# [[magnetotactic bacteria]]

# [[bacteria]]

# [[sense]]

# [[lodestone]]

# [[magnetotaxis]]

--[[User:DavidCary|DavidCary]] 06:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:Search indexes are a little out of date, and will be rebuilt/updated/improved/etc. soon. [[User:Robchurch|Rob Church]] ([[User_talk:Robchurch|talk]]) 16:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

==Deprecating images that are used on templates==

I've created a [[SVG]] version of the [[peace symbol]], [[:Image:Peace Sign.svg]]. I'm attempting to replace all instances of the old [[:Image:Peace-symbol.png]] with this (since, as a vector image, the SVG version scales much better to different resolutions). But I'm running into some trouble. The "What links here" page doesn't seem to be getting updated properly. Many of the uses are on templates, but even when I both replace the image on the template and then do a dummy save on the pages that transclude it, the list is still not updated. What do I need to do to get an accurate idea of where the image is used, and have it updated as I change it? <TT>[[User:Crotalus horridus|Crotalus horridus]] <SMALL>([[User talk:Crotalus horridus|TALK]] • [[Special:Contributions/Crotalus horridus|CONTRIBS]])</SMALL></TT> 06:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:I think making null edits on the pages that use the template updates the what liks here list. Not that that sounds like a very acceptable way out for you. --[[User:Martyman|Martyman]]-<small>[[User_Talk:Martyman|(talk)]]</small> 07:48, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:I'd suggest just going through all the links in the ''what links here'' list, skipping the ones that already have the SVG version. A tabbed browser like [[Firefox]] makes this very easy. Or you could just add a note to the image talk page and leve it at that, letting people migrate to the SVG version gradually. —[[User:Ilmari Karonen|Ilmari Karonen]] <small>([[User talk:Ilmari Karonen|talk]])</small> 12:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

== Spam protection filter ==

I was unable to close the [[WP:AFD|VfD discussion]] for [[Mofunzone]], which gave me a new, unfamiliar message on both the discussion page and the article itself :

:''The page you wanted to save was blocked by the spam filter. This was caused by a link to an external site.''

:''See the spam blacklist on Meta for a full list of blocked sites. If you believe that the spam filter is mistakenly blocking the edit, then please request that it be fixed on the spam blacklist talk page. The following is the section of the page that triggered the filter:''

:''The following text is what triggered our spam filter: (EN Wikipedia's address)''

Anyone have any idea what is actually going on here?

- ''Best regards'' [[User:Mailer diablo|Mailer Diablo]] 09:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:It's broken, don't know why. Disabled for the moment. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 09:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

:: Thanks! It works fine for me now. I suppose the filter script needs more off-site testing? :) - ''Cheers'', [[User:Mailer diablo|Mailer Diablo]] 09:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

== Nested tables and wikitable ==

If you have a wikitable and have another table inside the wikitable, that table will inherit all attributes from the wikitable, and that's is seldom what you want (if you want the nested table to be a wikitable, you specify that one as a wikitable).

Ther is a simple fix for the problem, just change the css for wikitable to:

<pre> table.wikitable,

table.prettytable {

margin: 1em 1em 1em 0;

background: #f9f9f9;

border: 1px #aaaaaa solid;

border-collapse: collapse;

}

table.wikitable > tbody > tr > th, table.wikitable> tbody > tr > td,

table.prettytable > tbody > tr > th, table.prettytable > tbody > tr > td {

border: 1px #aaaaaa solid;

padding: 0.2em;

}

table.wikitable > tbody > tr > th,

table.prettytable > tbody > tr > th {

background: #f2f2f2;

text-align: center;

}

table.wikitable caption,

table.prettytable caption {

margin-left: inherit;

margin-right: inherit;

}</pre>

_{→<font style="color:#975612">[[User:AzaToth|Aza]]</font><font style="color:#325596">[[User_talk:AzaToth|Toth]]</font>} 22:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

== Question about the new Cite.php feature. ==

Take a look at the newly featured article [[Krazy Kat]]. Specifically, [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Krazy_Kat&oldid=36885897 this edit here] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Krazy_Kat&oldid=36885493 this one here]. Notice how there are problems with the footnoted reference to Kramer in either version. In both cases the numbering of the footnotes is wrong; in the former there is only one link next to "Kramer" in the Notes section despite the two references to him, whereas in the latter there are two links as there should be, but the name "Kramer" is completely missing from the Notes section! How do I resolve this issue? [[User:Andrew Levine|Andrew Levine]] 02:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

:Hmmm...I tried playing around with it, but was unsuccessful. I'd be interested to find out what's wrong. &mdash; [[User:Knowledge Seeker|Knowledge Seeker]] [[User talk:Knowledge Seeker|&#2470;]] 03:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

::This seems to be a new problem with all pages currently using cite.php I think it is a bug in the code. Hopefully a developer will fix it soon. --[[User:Martyman|Martyman]]-<small>[[User_Talk:Martyman|(talk)]]</small> 04:30, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

===Cite.php bug===

What hapened? It was working fine until yesterday, Now there is an obvious bug, see [[List of charismatic leaders]]. How do we alret the developer? [[User:Jossi|&asymp; jossi &asymp;]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|t]] &bull; [[Special:Emailuser/Jossi|@]]</small> 04:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

:Try [[User talk:Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]] or [[Meta:Talk:Cite/Cite.php]]. &mdash; [[User:CatherineMunro|Catherine]]\^{[[User_talk:CatherineMunro|talk]]} 06:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

::I've reverted the buggy version of the extension. Use ?action=purge or edit to fix affected pages you may find. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 10:17, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

:::Cheers. What happened? —[[User:Phil Boswell|Phil]] | [[User talk:Phil Boswell|Talk]] 10:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

== Markup bug ==

The headings for ''On this day'' and ''Wikipedia Community'' don't line up right in either Firefox nor Internet Explorer on the page [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Usability/Main Page/Draft B]].<br><br>I've been over it with a fine-toothed comb, and I can't find the glitch. See the right hand column in the markup sample posted below. Please help.<br><br>[[User:Go for it!|Go for it!]] 04:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

:'''''Please ignore the "Did you know" and "In the news" headings, as that is just a bug on this page only.''''' It's '''On this day''' and '''Wikipedia Community''' that need to be fixed. Good luck.

<p style="margin-bottom:.2em; text-align: center; font-size:95%">''[[Wikipedia:Introduction|Introduction]] &middot; [[Wikipedia Almanac|Almanac]] &middot; [[Wikipedia:Browse|Categories]] &middot; [[List of glossaries|Glossaries]] &middot; [[List of topic lists|Lists]] &middot; [[Wikipedia:Browse by overview|Overviews]] &middot; [[Portal:Browse|Portals]] &middot; [[Wikipedia:Questions|Questions]] &middot; [[Wikipedia:News|Site news]] &middot; [[Wikipedia:Quick index|Index]]</p>

{|id="EnWpMpBook2" style="width:100%; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 0% 20%;background-color: #ffffff; border: 1px solid #ccc;"

|style="width:56%;"|

<div style="width:25em;margin-left:16px;margin-top:0.2em;text-align:center"><span style="font-size: 175%">Welcome to '''[[Wikipedia]]'''</span>

<div style="font-size:110%;margin-top:-.15em;margin-bottom:-.3em">The free encyclopedia that '''[[Wikipedia:Introduction|anyone can edit]]'''</div>

<span style="font-size: 95%">[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]] articles and growing</span></div>

<!-- ----------Portals Follow---------------------------- -->

|style="width:11%;font-size:95%"|

*[[Portal:Business|Business]]

*[[Portal:Culture|Culture]]

*[[Portal:Geography|Geography]]

|style="width:11%;font-size:95%"|

*[[Portal:Health|Health]]

*[[Portal:History|History]]

*[[Portal:Mathematics|Mathematics]]

|style="width:11%;font-size:95%"|

*[[Portal:Biography|People]]

*[[Portal:Philosophy|Philosophy]]

*[[Portal:Politics|Politics]]

|style="width:11%;font-size:95%"|

*[[Portal:Science|Science]]

*[[Portal:Society|Society]]

*[[Portal:Technology|Technology]]

|}

<!-- -------End Portals----- -->

<!-- ---------- CROSS-BROWSER PADDING BETWEEN HEADER & COLUMNS ------------------ -->

<div style="position: relative; height: 3px; overflow: hidden;"></div>

<!-- ---------- END OF HEADER SECTION / BEGINNING OF LEFT-COLUMN ------------------ -->

{| style="margin:0px;margin-left: -2px"

|width="54.5%" class="MainPageBG" style="border: 1px solid #d0f5e5; background-color: #f1fcf5; vertical-align:top;"|

<h3 style="background:#d0f5e5;margin:-2px;padding:4px;">

Today's featured article

</h3>

<div style="padding:6px;">

{{Wikipedia:Today's featured article/{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}, {{CURRENTYEAR}}}}

</div>

<h3 style="background:#d0f5e5;margin:0px;padding:4px;">

Today's featured picture

</h3>

<div style="padding:6px;">

{{POTD column}} <!--PICTURE OF THE DAY FEED, for this project. Keep it stocked up in advance! -->

</div>

<h3 style="background:#d0f5e5;margin:0px;padding:4px;">

&nbsp; <!-- Leave this heading blank! The heading in the transcluded template below is being bumped up into this heading via a negative top margin. -->

</h3>

<div style="padding:0px 0px 6px; margin-top:-2.4em; margin-right: .5em"> <!-- WARNING: left padding will affect the above heading because we've sneakily backed the heading of the transcluded page up over the background of a blank heading above-->

{{Did you know}}

</div>

<!-- -------------------- SMALL 3 PIXEL MIDDLE PADDING ---------------------------------- -->

|width="3px;" class="MainPageBG" vertical-align:top;"|

{|

|}

<!-- -------------------- START OF RIGHT-COLUMN ---------------------------------- -->

|width="45%" class="MainPageBG" style="border: 1px solid #d0e5f5; background-color: #f1f5fc; vertical-align:top;"|

<h3 style="background:#d0e5f5;margin:-2px;padding:4px;">

&nbsp; <!-- Leave this heading blank! The heading in the transcluded template below is being bumped up into this heading via a negative top margin, and adjusted left with a negative left margin. -->

</h3>

<div style="padding:6px; margin-top: -2.75em; margin-left:-.8em"> <!-- WARNING: changing the left and top margins or padding will affect the above heading because we've sneakily backed the heading of the transcluded page up over the background of a blank heading above-->

{{In the news}}

<br clear="all" />

<h3 clear="top" style="background:#d0e5f5;margin:0px;padding:4px;">

On this day...

</h3>

<div style="padding: 2px 19px 6px;">

{{Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}}}

</div>

<h3 style="background:#d0e5f5;margin:0px;padding:4px;">

Wikipedia community

</h3>

<div style="padding: 2px 19px 6px;">

Every page on Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. But there are some special places reserved for specific types of discussion and assistance. Find what you're looking for here:

*'''[[Wikipedia:Community portal|The Community Portal]]''' &mdash; The center of community involvement. Learn about projects and activities you can join to help improve Wikipedia.

*'''[[Wikipedia:Help desk|The Help Desk]]''' &mdash; Come here if you need help editing. You can ask a question about using Wikipedia. Alternatively, you can find what you need at [[Help:Contents]].

*'''[[Wikipedia:Reference desk|The Reference Desk]]''' &mdash; For questions about any subject you're researching or curious about (''not'' about Wikipedia itself), just like at a library's reference desk.

*'''[[Wikipedia:Village pump|The Village Pump]]''' &mdash; The main discussion forums of Wikipedia.

*'''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost|The Signpost]]''' &mdash; Wikipedia's newspaper, where you can read and post news about what's happening on this website.

*'''<span class="plainlinks">[http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising#Donation_methods Donations]</span>''' &mdash; Wikipedia is funded entirely by its users. We appreciate all donations. Thank you!

</div>

|}

[[Category:1982 births|Kaka]]

[[Category:Living people|Kaka]]

[[Category:Brazilian footballers|Kaka]]

[[Category:Portuguese-Brazilians|Kaka]]

[[Category:Football (soccer) midfielders|Kaka]]

[[Category:São Paulo Futebol Clube players|Kaka]]

[[Category:Serie A players|Kaka]]

[[Category:Current Serie A players|Kaka]]

[[Category:A.C. Milan players|Kaka]]

[[Category:Born-again Christians|Kaka]]

[[Category:FIFA World Cup goalscorers|Kaka]]

[[Category:FIFA World Cup 2002 players|Kaka]]

[[Category:FIFA World Cup 2006 players|Kaka]]

[[Category:FIFA World Cup-winning players|Kaka]]

[[ar:كاكا]]

I've spent hours trying to find why the headings in the right-hand column don't line up. Are you an expert at markup? Can you fix this? --[[User:Go for it!|Go for it!]] 04:37, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[[bs:Kaká]]

[[bg:Кака]]

[[cs:Kaká]]

[[de:Kaká]]

[[et:Kaká]]

[[es:Kaká]]

[[fr:Kaká]]

[[id:Kaká]]

[[it:Kaká]]

[[he:קאקה]]

[[lt:Kaká]]

[[hu:Kaká]]

[[nl:Kaká]]

[[ja:カカ]]

[[no:Kaká]]

[[pl:Kaká]]

[[pt:Ricardo Izecson dos Santos Leite]]

[[ru:Кака]]

[[sr:Кака]]

[[fi:Kaká]]

[[sv:Kaká]]

[[th:กาก้า]]

[[tr:Kaká]]

[[bat-smg:Kaka]]

[[zh:卡卡]]