Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 January 12: Difference between revisions
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==== Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic) ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' '''withdrawn by nominator'''. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 13:12, 25 January 2019 (UTC)<!-- Template:Cfd top -->
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:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] into [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]]. The latter is the main ___location for these historic constituencies, we shouldn't overly nest them. --[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]] ([[User talk:Iveagh Gardens|talk]]) 21:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. They are nested for good reason, which the nominator (@[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]]) has evidently not examined. {{smiley|sad}}
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:::::::Very odd. I presume that you have some reason for wanting to delete [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]], or to remove Dail constituencies from it ... but you still haven't explained what that reason is.
:::::::I undestand that there may be difft approaches, but it's no clearer what yours actually is. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:40, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::::Apologies if amidst all the explanation of the mechanics of the move, I didn't adequately explain my reasoning for the proposal.
::::::::We have a category titled [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]]. That is a natural place for the predecessor constituencies to the current constituencies in the Dáil, so a neat counterpart category to [[:Category:Dáil constituencies]]. That would be the natural division, a constituency is either current or historic. However, there are of course a set of constituencies which were constituencies in the First and Second Dáil which were not predecessor constituencies to those of the current Dáil. So it makes sense to categorise them separately, in [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in Northern Ireland (historic)]]. But that fact alone shouldn't be enough that a constituency like Dublin South-East also needs to be in a subcategory of those in the Republic of Ireland, rather than simply using the category of [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]]. The vast majority of constituencies in question fall into the Republic of Ireland category, and to put all of these into that category, rather than simply the [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]] category almost privileges the Northern Ireland Dáil constituencies, which were used in only two elections and were not predecessor constituencies to any later Dáil constituency.
::::::::That is my reason for my proposal, which whatever your instinctual response, was in fact carefully examined.
::::::::The one argument I see against me is that [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] currently has two subcategories, [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in County Dublin (historic)]] and [[:Category:University constituencies in the Republic of Ireland]], which my proposal would then seem to present as equal subcategories with [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in Northern Ireland (historic)]]. That I concede could cause confusion. —[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]] ([[User talk:Iveagh Gardens|talk]]) 10:33, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::@[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]]: I really cannot make sense of why you think this is a good idea, nor do I see evidence that your proposal was carefully examined.
:::::::::You say that {{tq|[[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] currently has two subcategories, [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in County Dublin (historic)]] and [[:Category:University constituencies in the Republic of Ireland]]}}. That is simply not true; neither of those two are direct subcats.
:::::::::[[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] currently has ''three'' subcategories (not as yous ate, two: [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic) by county]], [[:Category:Westminster constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]], [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]].
:::::::::You proposal would either:
:::::::::# remove the set of article currently in [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] from [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]], which makes no sense, ''or''
:::::::::# require require dual categorisation of the current contents of [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] in both [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]] ''and'' [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]]. which adds category clutter, cinfuses naviugation, and maintenance harder;
:::::::::You claim that putting the ROI & NI constits of [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]] in separate subcats {{tq|almost privileges the Northern Ireland Dáil constituencies}} is bizarre. How on earth does having them both in separate cross-linked subcats "privilege" one over the other?
:::::::::Your notion of predecessor constituencies also seems to me to a bit simplistic. Each constituency review draws up a new set of consituencies, with whatever borders it sees best suited to its criteria. Names may be unchanged, but boundaries are rarely unchanged: if you look for example at [[Sligo–Leitrim (Dáil constituency)#Boundaries]], it has at various times included chunks of counties Donegal, Cavan, Roscommon, and at some points almost none of County Leitrim. The Dublin constituencies are even more complex; many of the names used have at times referred to areas which were wholly excluded from other incarnations of the same name. Any idea of successors and predecessors is either a grossly misleading simplification, or far too complex to be represented other than in some sort of v sophisticated evolving map.
:::::::::So I'm sorry, but the counterfactuals you present and your repeated failure to spot what [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] actually does looks to me like something other than a {{tq|carefully examined}} proposal. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 02:17, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::@[[User:BrownHairedGirl|BrownHairedGirl]]: for clarity, I made a mistake in my last post. What I had meant to write was that {{tq|''[[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]]'' currently has two subcategories, [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in County Dublin (historic)]] and [[:Category:University constituencies in the Republic of Ireland]]}}. Apologies for my copy-and-paste mistake in that regard.
::::::::::Again, for clarity, my use of the term {{tq|predecessor constituency}} was not so we could start referring to Dublin South-East as the predecessor constituency of Dublin Bay South, or anything like that. I was referring to the whole set of historic constituencies in the area of what is now the Republic of Ireland collectively being predecessor constituencies of those currently in use.
::::::::::My proposal was to move the set of articles at [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] to [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]]. I would then make [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]] a direct subcategory of [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]]. I state that not to re-open the discussion. I have no wish to do this, but so that you have clarity about what precisely we are disagreeing about.
::::::::::As you can gather from edits and additions on other pages, I am not ill-informed on the electoral and constitutional history of Ireland. Similarly, from your work on these articles over many years, I can say the same of your own knowledge. In that circumstance, we should probably now each take the good intentions and diligence of the other for granted and let this one rest, unless you have a specific comment based on my clarifications here. --[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]] ([[User talk:Iveagh Gardens|talk]]) 15:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::::::::{{yo|Iveagh Gardens}} thanks for the friendly response and the clarification. You say that you proposed to make [[:Category:Dáil constituencies (historic)]] a direct subcategory of [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]]. However, that would have the effect of making [[:Category:Dáil constituencies in Northern Ireland (historic)]] a sub-subcat of [[:Category:Parliamentary constituencies in the Republic of Ireland (historic)]] ... which it simply shouldn't be. Preventing that sort of thing is why the ROI/NI category split was made in the first place. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 15:50, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::::::::{{ping|BrownHairedGirl}} You are correct, that elision should be avoided. While I had examined the reasons for the split, I hadn't looked at every part of the tree and how they would fit into my proposal. This discussion can now be closed. --[[User:Iveagh Gardens|Iveagh Gardens]] ([[User talk:Iveagh Gardens|talk]]) 16:57, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Israeli revolutionaries ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. Per {{U|John Pack Lambert}}, no merge is necessary. The rename suggestion of the target category is noted, but it would need its own nomination, as that category wasn't nominated. ~ [[User:BU Rob13|<b>Rob</b><small><sub>13</sub></small>]]<sup style="margin-left:-1.0ex;">[[User talk:BU Rob13|Talk]]</sup> 01:25, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Israeli revolutionaries]] to [[:Category:Jewish rebels]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Only one entry - Menachem Begin. I'm not sure he'd be counted as a revolutionary, but even if he was, he and his associates were not Israelis when they were fighting, because it didnt exist then. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
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*It's quite difficult to categorise rebels by nationality or geography, because if they are successful nations or boundaries may change. This seems a reasonable solution for this particular situation. And there are issues about the difference between rebels and revolutionaries. I think rebels are fighting for a change of control in the place where they live. Revolutionaries generally have wider aims. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 13:23, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Support''', the current category name wrongly suggests that it is about revolutionaries against the state of Israel. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 07:29, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Rename to [[:Category:Jewish rebels in Mandatory Palestine]]''' or something similar. If the scope is Mandatory Palestine, we need to make this clear, not to include any Jew who has been a rebel or a revolutionary anywhere any time, such as Trotsky, the Maccabees and [[:fr:Jacob Pereira|Jacob Pereira]]. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 20:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
:* Note that the one article in this category is already in [[:Category:Irgun members]]. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 07:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' the one article is already in a subcategory of the target.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 20:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Elections not won by the popular vote winner ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. — [[User:JJMC89|JJMC89]] <small>([[User talk:JJMC89|T]]'''·'''[[Special:Contributions/JJMC89|C]])</small> 23:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Elections not won by the popular vote winner}}<br />
:** '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Elections in Australia not won by the popular vote winner}}<br />
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*'''Delete''' as not neutral. [[User:Rubbish computer|''Rubbish computer'']] ([[User talk:Rubbish computer|''Talk'']]: [[Special:Contributions/Rubbish computer|''Contribs'']]) 18:08, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' per above. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 18:21, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
* Comment: What happened to the idea for replacement categories / lists such as mentioned at the given discussion? I actually found the category useful. [[User:Master of Time|<span style="color:green; font-family:Times New Roman"><u>Master of Time</u></span>]] [[User talk:Master of Time|(<span style="color:green; font-family:Times New Roman">talk</span>)]] 03:04, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
::I also found the category useful but since everyone else disagreed I considered it better to delete. You are welcome to try to come up with a replacement that isn't ambiguous.--[[Special:Contributions/Obi2canibe|Obi2canibe]] ([[User talk:Obi2canibe|talk)]] 18:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. These categories would imply that ''the popular vote winner'' is clear without a doubt for these elections, however this can, in fact, never be the case as it is open to many interpretations (e.g. plurality vs. majority). The only way to break this ambiguity would be for an official election authority to declare who the ''popular vote winner'' is, but that cannot be the case in most circumstances, precisely because they are in the business or declaring the actual winner. Also, the word ''not'' in a category title is usually a clue for problems coming, a bit like the word ''and''. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 20:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete'''. Yes, this is a thing that happens sometimes, as an accidental or intentional byproduct of how electoral systems are actually organized — but it's not a [[WP:DEFINING|defining]] characteristic of the elections for the purposes of ''categorizing'' them, because the popular vote isn't necessarily always even ''intended'' to be the controlling factor in elections in the first place. List articles might be acceptable, but it's not a useful point of ''categorization''. [[User:Bearcat|Bearcat]] ([[User talk:Bearcat|talk]]) 17:46, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete''' in the US case which I understand, the problem is that before the US Civil War (1861-1865) South Carolina never had a popular vote, its electors were chosen by the state legislature. 1876 has the issue of major fraud and voter intimadation by the KKK which makes it next to impossible to say that anyone was a legitimate winner. In 1824 South Carolina was not the only state that lacked a popular vote, so talking about who won that popular vote really does not make sense. The nominations processes it makes even less sense.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 20:10, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Too vague and subjective to be of any value as a category. [[User:Drdpw|Drdpw]] ([[User talk:Drdpw|talk]]) 01:58, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Bridges by city in Ukraine ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''keep'''. <small>[[Wikipedia:NACD|(non-admin closure)]]</small> [[User:B dash|B dash]] ([[User talk:B dash|talk]]) 03:21, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Bridges in Dnipro]] to [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Dnipro]]
:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Railway bridges in Dnipro]] to [[:Category:Railway bridges in Ukraine]] and [[:Category:Rail infrastructure in Dnipro]]
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::::* I was referring to the issue of a skewed coverage. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 06:52, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::*{{yo|Marcocapelle}} What do you mean by "skewed coverage"? (and why do you think it's a problem?) <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 06:04, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
::::::* {{yo|DexDor}} I mean there may well be many more bridges in the countryside of Ukraine that theoretically could qualify as notable but for which articles aren't created because few editors have an interest in smaller place in Ukraine. The Ukrainian population is about 2/3 of the UK but it's coverage is of course way lower, not just for bridges but for any topic. The consequence is that is far less likely that we will get decently populated in Ukraine than in the UK. The problem is that editors keep creating tiny categories as if it realistic that the coverage may be at par some day. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 09:17, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:::::::* I'm still not seeing any skewed coverage (as in phrases like "''The media's coverage of the election was skewed''"). If the article/category ratio is a bit different in Ukraine from in UK that really isn't a problem. <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 13:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
:::*{{yo|DexDor}} the issue which I would like to see magically resolved is the nominator's apparent lack of any [[WP:BEFORE]] research in advance of these multiple similar nominations. As I noted below, [https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D1%8F:%D0%9C%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%A5%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0 Категорія:Мости Харкова] (the Ukrainian-language wikipedia's equivalent of [[:Category:Bridges in Kharkiv]]) has articles on 4 more bridges and one list, for which Google translate could create be used to make stubs on en.wp. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 00:22, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support all''' It's not just about the quantity of articles currently available, it is equally about the likelihood that in the English wiki there will ever be enough notable bridges to warrant such deep classification. In my judgement, the answer is "no". But if other cities open a slew of new bridge articles, I've no objection to these cats being re-created. Meanwhile they are spurious navigational aids and in reality a hindrance. [[User:Laurel Lodged|Laurel Lodged]] ([[User talk:Laurel Lodged|talk]]) 15:38, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
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:::::@[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]]: For me, the difference is that in these cases we have the data to see that expansion is readily possible. That's a big difference from the flurry of [[:Category:People from some tiny and declining town in Wyoming]] which William is so good at tackling.
:::::And I agree with {{yo|Dexdor|p=}} that it wasn't a good idea to create these categories just yet. But now that they are here, and since a degree of easy expansion is evidently posisble, why delete? Better to be eventualist about it. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:40, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Procedural comment''', request for closure of the discussion posted on the [[Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure#Deletion_discussions|administrators noticeboard]]. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 22:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
*'''Keep''' [[:Category:Bridges in Dnipro]] as it has a list plus 3 articles (currently in sub-cats). '''Manually merge''' the others to all relevant parents, as [[WP:SOFTDELETE]] on the grounds that they are too small to be useful at the moment. This would be no bar to re-creating them if a few more categories are created. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 11:58, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
====
[[File:Symbol move vote.svg|16px|link=|alt=]] '''Relisted''', see [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 March 9%23Buildings and structures by city]]<!-- Template:Cfd relisted -->
==== Category:Recreational sublabial drugs ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''rename''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 06:33, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Recreational sublabial drugs}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Various similar categories have been deleted in the past on the grounds that "recreational" is hard to define, and we generally don't classify drugs by how they are taken. [[User:Le Deluge|Le Deluge]] ([[User talk:Le Deluge|talk]]) 11:02, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
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*'''Comment:''' The current category name doesn't seem to reflect the intention described by [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]], which is the cultural practice of chewing certain substances, rather than contemporary drug culture. "Sublabial" is also quite misleading. Not quite sure though what a better name would be. Maybe something that would also include [[Chewing gum]]? In any case, [[Khat]] is missing from the category. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 19:47, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' e.g. as it doesn't make much sense to have this category when there isn't even an article on [[sublabial drug]]s. <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 21:44, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Rename''' to [[:Category:Masticatories]]. This should be the word we're looking for. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 10:32, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
**[[User:Le Deluge|Le Deluge]], [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] and [[User:DexDor|DexDor]], what do you think of the renaming option? --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 21:04, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
*** Is there an article about [[masticatories]]? <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 21:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
****Not on Wikipedia, but having an article has never been a requisite for having a category. There is an [[:wikt:masticatory|entry]] on Wiktionary, though. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 05:08, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
*****There may not be a guideline explicitly saying that, but most categories use word(s) that match article(s) (or at least a redirect to part of an article that defines the topic). <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 06:53, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
**{{cl|Masticatories}} is a less bad name than the original, but I still struggle with the idea that there's a real connection between the members of the category, it feels like categorising grass and treefrogs together because they are both green. The fact that we've got to 2019 without an article about [[masticatories]] strongly suggests to be that this is a grouping with no great links between them, so it's not [[WP:DEFINING]]. I'd suggest to [[User:SchmuckyTheCat]] that the way ahead would be not a category but a list article that can be filled out, lists generally work better for these kind of things where the grouping is a bit debatable. For instance, people chew sugarcane for pleasure, does that count? What about steak? Categories should have clean boundaries as far as possible. [[User:Le Deluge|Le Deluge]] ([[User talk:Le Deluge|talk]]) 13:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
***I'm not opposed to a rename, it's probably the word I was looking for. And it's not like the color green. Chewing things is a curious thing that humans do. Why isn't there an article? As to boundaries: Use reliable sources. [[User:SchmuckyTheCat|SchmuckyTheCat]] ([[User talk:SchmuckyTheCat|talk]]) 19:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Both [[masticate]] and [[mastication]] point to [[Chewing]], we don't have [[masticatory]] but we do have [[masturbatory]] so maybe we should make a new redirect? Anyway, "things you chew" is not the same thing as "(1) recreational (2) sublabial (3) drugs". I don't think you chew sublabial drugs (or maybe not all of them), I think they're supposed to dissolve under the lip. I say delete for three reasons. "Recreational" is too subjective/broad to be a meaningful limiter. There are sublabial pharmaceuticals that some people take as medicine and other take recreationally (like marijuana and pain killers in liquid form). ''Every'' drug is recreational, if you ask me or [[Hunter S. Thompson]]. "Drug" is also too subjective/broad to be a meaningful limiter, as it includes heroin and coffee and aspirin and everything in between. Finally, while in the medical context, sublabial means "under the lip" and refers to one's mouth, in the context of "recreational drugs", there could be some confusion about using the term "sublabial", given how some illegal drugs are used recreationally (or so I've heard). Anyway, too ambiguous of a name for a category, though "Masticatories" sounds like it would work as a category name (as long as we're careful not to make typos when creating it) for "things people chew", and "Sublabial medication" might be the category for pharmaceuticals administered through [[sublabial administration]] (as opposed to "Sublingual medication" for [[sublingual administration]]). [[User:Levivich|'''<sup>Leviv</sup><sub style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(45deg);">ich</sub>''']]<span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(270deg);">[[User talk:Levivich|?]] [[Special:Contribs/Levivich|!]]</span> 07:45, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Architecture by country ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''Rename per revised proposal'''. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering|Talk]]) 11:37, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
'''Propose renaming:'''
* [[:Category:Albanian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Albania]]
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* [[:Category:Yemeni architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Yemen]]
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<s>'''Propose splitting:'''</s> Per the below discussion, I'm amending the proposal to drop the split part. The suggestion is now to rename the following as with the above.
* [[:Category:Armenian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Armenia]] <s>and [[:Category:Armenian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Cambodian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Cambodia]] <s>and [[:Category:Khmer architecture]]</s>
{{collapse top}}
* [[:Category:Chinese architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of China]] <s>and [[:Category:Chinese architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Danish architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Denmark]] <s>and [[:Category:Scandinavian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Dutch architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of the Netherlands]] <s>and [[:Category:Dutch architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Egyptian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Egypt]] <s>and [[:Category:Egyptian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:French architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of France]] <s>and [[:Category:French architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:German architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Germany]] <s>and [[:Category:German architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Greek architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Greece]] <s>and [[:Category:Ancient Greek architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Indian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of India]] <s>and [[:Category:Indian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Iranian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Iran]] <s>and [[:Category:Iranian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Italian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Italy]] <s>and [[:Category:Italian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Japanese architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Japan]] <s>and [[:Category:Japanese architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Moroccan architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Morocco]] <s>and [[:Category:Moroccan architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:North Korean architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of North Korea]] <s>and [[:Category:Korean architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Portuguese architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Portugal]] <s>and [[:Category:Portuguese architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Russian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Russia]] <s>and [[:Category:Russian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Serbian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Serbia]] <s>and [[:Category:Serbian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Slovenian architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Slovenia]] <s>and [[:Category:Slovenian architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:South Korean architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of South Korea]] <s>and [[:Category:Korean architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Spanish architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Spain]] <s>and [[:Category:Spanish architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Taiwanese architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Taiwan]] <s>and [[:Category:Chinese architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Thai architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Thailand]] <s>and [[:Category:Thai architecture]]</s>
* [[:Category:Vietnamese architecture]] to [[:Category:Architecture of Vietnam]] <s>and [[:Category:Vietnamese architecture]]</s>
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*'''Comment:''' I previously mentioned at the [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Architecture#Architecture by country categories|Architecture WikiProject talk page]] that the specific example that prompted my concern was how to categorise [[:Category:Chinese architecture in Thailand]]. Having [[:Category:Chinese architecture]] and [[:Category:Architecture of Thailand]] would solve the problem. I'm reconsidering, though, whether the distinction is necessary. Perhaps we could treat [[:Category:Architecture of China]] as covering both architecture geographically located in China and of a style originating in China. (The distinction would be needed if the proposal was to split between Chinese architecture and Architecture ''in'' China, but the proposal here uses the preposition ''of'', which could mean both.) This would best reflect how the categories are currently used, and help avoid the need to manually clean-up the whole tree. It's not "clean" in terms of categorisation, though, and doesn't address the opposition from the previous discussion. --[[User:Paul 012|Paul_012]] ([[User talk:Paul 012|talk]]) 19:16, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support''' moving ''Fooian Architecture'' to ''Architecture of Foo.'' {{re|Paul 012}} Yes, I agree completely with the hybrid meaning of "of" in "Architecture '''of''' Foo", which is what you've proposed all along, and also what was proposed in 2010. And, indeed, these very points we're discussing were discussed then as well. Re-reading that thread just now, I really don't see any serious opposition to what you are proposing. The oppose !votes in the 2010 thread seem to oppose "Architecture '''in''' Foo" (they use the word "in" in their oppose !vote comments), not Architecture '''of''' Foo. Because "of" can mean "in" or "from", it's the right choice of word. And, it follows the formats of the article titles. Frankly I disagree with that 2010 close as being no consensus. Is it too late to delrev? :-D On the basis of this, I support the proposal. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 00:33, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support''' moving as proposed by original poster. '''''Comment:''''' Architecture belongs to a '''"style", "period" or "movement"''' not nations and states, not even to any of the ethno-religious groups. Therefor, I don't exactly understand why is this even a problem, as academia recognized this kind of differentiation since time immemorial ? However, one should be careful in moving every and all of the categories for two reasons: first, because sometimes styles are grouped and than named upon some social and/or political entity, not just movement, etc - "Ottoman", "Moorish", "Austria-Hungarian", "Persian", "Mughal", etc.; and second, although it is a true that, for example, "Bosnia and Herzegovina architecture" actually doesn't exists as a distinct style, we can still say that "Architecture of Bosnia and Herzegovina" include "Ottoman", "Austria-Hungarian", "Modern" and "Brutalist-Socialist", etc., and than be careful to understand that it also include "Bosnian traditional architecture", "Herzegovinian traditional architecture", "Dalmatian traditional architecture" and even "Illyrian traditional architecture", all of which don't belong to any artistic school or movement but are very distinct "vernacular architecture" still in use today, and more importantly for this issue, still nameed upon ethno-religious and/or geographical label. The "top" category should be "Architecture of ...nation/state..." and not "...nation/state... architecture". --[[User:Santasa99|<span style="color:maroon; text-shadow:#666362 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">'''౪ Santa ౪'''</span>]][[User talk:Santasa99|<span style="color:navy; text-shadow:#666362 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;"><sup>'''''99°'''''</sup></span>]] 13:30, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
====Category:Georgian opera singers====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' '''delete'''. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 10:07, 25 January 2019 (UTC)<!-- Template:Cfd top -->
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* '''Propose reverting'''. Look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Opera_singers_from_Georgia_(country)&diff=877953132&oldid=833836509 this change and the associated by same editor]. Does not seem like correct way to rename category. [[Special:Contributions/2600:1002:B12B:F76E:31A9:73FC:1EAA:FC9F|2600:1002:B12B:F76E:31A9:73FC:1EAA:FC9F]] ([[User talk:2600:1002:B12B:F76E:31A9:73FC:1EAA:FC9F|talk]]) 02:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Yeah, because of [[Georgia (U.S. state)]] we always use "Foo from Georgia (country)" to avoid ambiguity. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 12:04, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' [[:Category:Georgian opera singers]] since it has an ambiguous name and it seems to have an identical scope as [[:Category:Opera singers from Georgia (country)]] which is not ambiguous. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 12:06, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Delete''' as above. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 20:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Portuguese-language Brazilian telenovelas ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' '''merge''' to [[:Category:Brazilian telenovelas]]. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 02:26, 20 February 2019 (UTC)<!-- Template:Cfd top -->
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:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Portuguese-language Brazilian telenovelas}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Redundant category; all Brazilian telenovelas are in Portuguese. [[User:Mvcg66b3r|Mvcg66b3r]] ([[User talk:Mvcg66b3r|talk]]) 01:54, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
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::That would still remove them from [[:Category:Portuguese-language telenovelas]]. <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 16:01, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge''' to [[:Category:Brazilian telenovelas]] (a subcat of [[:Category:Portuguese-language telenovelas]]) per Marcocapelle. [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 15:52, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
* '''Merge'''. [[:Category:Brazilian telenovelas]] is currently a subcategory of [[:Category:Portuguese-language telenovelas]], so it's a no-brainer. [[User:Place Clichy|Place Clichy]] ([[User talk:Place Clichy|talk]]) 20:50, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
*'''Merge''' to national cat. Even if that cat was not currently in the Portuguese-language cat, nothing would prevent adding.[[User:Johnpacklambert|John Pack Lambert]] ([[User talk:Johnpacklambert|talk]]) 20:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
* '''Support Merge''' - Portuguese is the offical langauge of Brazil, so this category is highly redundant. Merging is the best option. [[User:Inter&anthro|Inter&anthro]] ([[User talk:Inter&anthro|talk]]) 14:23, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Geologists from Germany ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 10:14, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Geologists from Germany}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Misnamed duplicate of {{cl|German geologists}}. [[User:Grutness|Grutness]]...''<small>[[User_talk:Grutness|<span style="color: #008822;">wha?</span>]]</small>'' 00:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
:*'''Comment''' This is now an empty category and can be deleted via CSD. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 03:24, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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