Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 April 8: Difference between revisions

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==== Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee ====

[[File:*Symbol move vote.svg|16px|link=|alt=]] '''Propose deletingRelisted''', {{lc|see [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 June 22%23Category:Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee}}]]<br!-- /Template:Cfd relisted -->

:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Hard to see when this has ever been a defining characteristic of anyone. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 16:13, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

:'''Keep''' - a quick Google Books search find plenty of people for whom this is listed in a short biography, suggesting that it is defining for them. Also turns up repeatedly in Who's Who/Who Was Who entries, which are generally brief and include little more than defining characteristics. [[User:Warofdreams|Warofdreams]] ''[[User talk:Warofdreams|talk]]'' 16:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

::I don't think inclusion in a short biography demonstrates that something meets [[WP:CATDEF]]. A defining characteristic, the text at CATDEF implies, is something in the first sentence or two of a short biography. I looked at a quasi-random sampling of people in this category:

**These didn't even mention the Fabians in the lede: [[Colin Jackson (politician)]], [[Frederick Pethick-Lawrence, 1st Baron Pethick-Lawrence]], [[John Cartwright (British politician)]], [[Denis Healey]], [[Henry Slesser]], [[Samuel Kerkham Ratcliffe]], [[Leo Chiozza Money]], [[Ellie Levenson]]

**Mentioned the Fabians, but not exec cttee membership: [[Hubert Bland]] (opening sentence of lede notes he was one of the founders of the Fabians), [[Barbara Drake]] (describes her as a Fabian, but the article text never mentions the exec cttee)

**Mentioned exec cttee in lede (sort of): [[Isabel Priestley]] (only a stub with three short paragraphs, and her membership is mentioned in the second paragraph), [[Ambrose Appelbe]] (stub with four paragraphs, membership is mentioned in the third) [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 17:32, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' The fact that Fabians are not mentioned in the ledes is not terribly significant. Membership of the Executive Committee was more important for some of these people than others, and its defining importance in the early lives of some was eclipsed by later achievements. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 21:20, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

**For whom is it a defining characteristic? It's still a secondary characteristic for, ''e.g.'', [[Isabel Priestley]] and [[Ambrose Appelbe]]. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 22:15, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

**(ec) @[[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]], that is a broader problem with [[WP:DEFINING]]. Attribute X may represent the pinnacle of the career of person A, but they may have served alongside Person B who did so much else at a higher level that X is a mere footnote in their life. In such cases we have to make a judgement on X's definingness across the set as a whole. In this case I agree that being on the Fabian Exec was defining for most, even for Denis Healey. But other cases are much less clearcut, and the philosophical problem is irresoluble within our current framework. In an ideal world, we might able to rank the categories applied to each article, so that readers could choose to view only the most defining, but the software doesn't allow it and we haven't enough editors to do it.--[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 22:46, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

:::I concur with {{u|BrownHairedGirl}}'s description of the fundamental philosophical problem that a category may be defining for some people, but not others. I think the approach one has to take is on an article by article basis. For this person, a particular category is not defining and should not be added. For that person, it is and it should be.

:::This leaves us with some categories that might apply to a lot of people, but which are actually defining for only a few articles. I see a lot of school alumni categories that rarely seem defining, so I chop them from articles, but I can see they might be in certain situations.

:::In this particular case, however, while I can see that being a Fabian may meet DEFCAT, and we have a category for that, I struggle to see that this category, "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee‎", or indeed a related category, "Treasurers of the Fabian Society‎", are ever defining. The broader category of being a member of the Fabians seems sufficient. It's [[WP:OC]] to split that into 5 sub-categories ("Chairs of...", "General Secretaries of...", "Members of the Fabian Society Executive Committee‎", "Presidents of..." and "Treasurers of..."). [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 15:52, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

::::Oh, I should have proposed upmerger, not deletion, shouldn't I? [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 15:54, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' - if Fabian Society Executive Committee is not mentioned in an article then the category should be removed. (Editors should not be 'chopping' school alumni categories from articles (assuming the school is mentioned and preferably sourced). I think (in practice) we categorize by defining characteristics and also a list of factoids - year of birth, death, place person is from, school, university + a few others.) [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 11:09, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Keep''' There are plenty of categories which are defining for some of the members, but not for others. Sometimes they reveal interesting connections which have not been generally noticed. I think we should keep them if they are significant for a reasonable number. I dont see much harm done if that means some people appear in categories which, as far as they are concerned, are not really defining. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 21:36, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

* '''Delete''' per nom. Note that ''especially'' with biographies we should strictly keep to [[WP:DEFINING]] since biography articles too often contain a huge list of categories already, so that nobody can see the wood for the trees, which just undermines the usefulness of the category system. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 22:14, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Support in Principle/Upmerge''' to [[:Category:Members of the Fabian Society]]. While these people do seem definined by their socialism and that is often intertwined with their Fabian Society activities, the couple hundred people in this category (of which I clicked on like 20) don't seem defined by what appears to be a volunteer stint in this executive role. (We have a parent category for any member though which is not nominated so I don't favor a straight deletion.) [[User:RevelationDirect|RevelationDirect]] ([[User talk:RevelationDirect|talk]]) 02:01, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

==== Category:Springs (mechanical) ====

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==== Category:European disability organisations ====

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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''Rename to [[:Category:European disability organizations]]'''. -- [[User talk:DeltaQuad|<span style="color:white;background-color:#8A2DB8"><b>Amanda</b></span>]] <small>[[User:DeltaQuad|(aka DQ)]]</small> 10:46, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:European disability organisations]] to [[:Category:Disability organisations based in Europe]]

:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per the categories under [[:Category:Disability organizations by country]]. [[User:Od Mishehu|עוד&nbsp;מישהו]] [[User talk:Od Mishehu|Od&nbsp;Mishehu]] 15:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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* '''Rename''' but to [[:Category:European disability organizations]] per everything in [[:Category:Disability organizations]]. We already have [[:Category:Disability organizations by country]] (using 'based in') for ones based somewhere specific. [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 16:11, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

* '''Support alt rename''' per Oculi, this is for organizations that are active across the whole of Europe. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 07:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Category:Kumkum Bhagya portal ====

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==== Category:Mint 400 Records album covers ====

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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''no consensus'''. -- [[User talk:DeltaQuad|<span style="color:white;background-color:#8A2DB8"><b>Amanda</b></span>]] <small>[[User:DeltaQuad|(aka DQ)]]</small> 10:44, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Mint 400 Records album covers}}<br />

:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Absent-mindedly, I nominated [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_March_4%23Category:Album_covers_by_label|Category:Album covers by label]] rather than this root category. The deletion result of the parent shows there’s no need for a “by label” categorization of album covers. <span style="color:blue">Star</span><span style="color:orange">cheers</span><span style="color:green">peaks</span><span style="color:red">news</span>lost<span style="color:blue">wars</span>^{[[User talk:Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars|Talk to me]]} 14:38, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

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<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span>HairedGirl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 09:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->

* '''Comment '''- we categorize by defining characteristics. "Album cover for Mint 400 Records Presents Nirvana In Utero" appears to be (1) an album cover; (2) Mint Records; (3) Nirvana. It would hardly be overcategorization to have 3 categories. [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 10:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Power stations in Lithuania by city ====

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==== Category:Islamist insurgents ====

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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''no consensus'''. New nomination recommended. -- [[User talk:DeltaQuad|<span style="color:white;background-color:#8A2DB8"><b>Amanda</b></span>]] <small>[[User:DeltaQuad|(aka DQ)]]</small> 10:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:Islamist insurgents]] to [[:Category:Islamists charged with terrorism]]

:'''Nominator's rationale:''' We do not currently have a category for insurgents; this was recently discussed and then merged to [[:Category:Rebels]], see [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_January_13#Category:Insurgents]]. The members of this category do not appear to be participants in an [[Insurgency]], i.e. rebels who are not recognized as lawful combatants. Rather, they are Islamists who are regarded by others as having committed or supported terrorism. We do not categorise people directly as "terrorists" since that is a contentious label, but I suggest that this category might form a useful sub-category under [[:Category:People charged with terrorism]], and should be renamed accordingly. It would then need to be purged somewhat, e.g. I believe [[Roshonara Choudhry]] is more appropriately categorised in [[:Category:Islamist criminals]]. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 22:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

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:* Fair enough with me. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 19:17, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

*'''Comment''' -- The suggested name does not exactly work, because it depends on there being somebody (presumably a state authority) to lay a charge; also it would exclude those who died (e.g. by suicide) before arrest. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 16:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Bridges by city ====

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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''no consensus'''. Scope is unclear, consensus is unclear, and a fresh nomination is recommended. -- [[User talk:DeltaQuad|<span style="color:white;background-color:#8A2DB8"><b>Amanda</b></span>]] <small>[[User:DeltaQuad|(aka DQ)]]</small> 10:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Bridges in Astana]] to [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Astana]]

:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:Bridges in Gdańsk‎]] to [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Gdańsk‎]]

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*'''Alternative merge''' -- If this goes ahead there need to be further merge targets. I looked at the Lisbon case, whose parent is "Portugal by city", the sibling category being Porto with 6 bridges. The parent for Portugal has a lot of bridges, but it is not clear where they are. My suggestion is not to abolish the categories but to have county/provincial categories, which might get enough population to be worthwhile. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 16:54, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

**{{ping|Peterkingiron}} I agree about additional merge targets, and some can be found by checking the existing parent categories, such as [[:Category:Transport in Lisbon]] in this case, as I suggested above. There is [[:Category:Bridges in Portugal by district]], which has 3 sub-cats at present; as for Lisbon District [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Lisbon District]] & sub-cats have at least three bridge articles. At a higher level it would be possible to start categories for bridges by region in Portugal, cf. [[:Category:Bridges in England]] which is split by county, but there is as yet nothing similar by type within [[:Category:Buildings and structures in Portugal by region]]. (Portugal also doesn't yet have a national category within [[:Category:Transport buildings and structures by country]].) – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 11:28, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Category:Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection ====

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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''

:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. <small>[[Wikipedia:NACD|(non-admin closure)]]</small> [[User:DannyS712|DannyS712]] ([[User talk:DannyS712|talk]]) 11:35, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''Propose Deleting/Listifying''' [[:Category:Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection]]

:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per [[WP:PERFCAT]] and [[WP:OVERLAPCAT]]

:[[WMS Industries#Solid state pinball|Williams]] was a major manufacturer of classic physical pinball machines in the 1970s and 1980s and all of those models are categorized in [[:Category:Williams pinball machines]]. In 2011, an electronic video game came out that allowed you to play simulations of those old time pinball machines on the Wii and PlayStation game consoles. This is not a museum or an award. Rather, the pinball machine models that appeared in [[Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection]] are what make up this category which doesn't seem defining. The contents of this category are already listified [[Pinball Hall of Fame: The Williams Collection#Machines|here in the main article]]. - [[User:RevelationDirect|RevelationDirect]] ([[User talk:RevelationDirect|talk]]) 00:19, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

:* '''NominatorDelete's rationale:''' Hard to see when this has ever been a defining characteristic ofper anyonenom. [[User:Bondegezou|Bondegezou]] ([[User talk:Bondegezou|talk]]) 1611:1331, 820 April 2019 (UTC)

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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>

==== Category:National Fastpitch Coaches Association Hall of Fame inductees ====