Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 June 23: Difference between revisions
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==== Category:Scottish peoples ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 11:04, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Scottish peoples}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''delete''' per [[WP:SMALLCAT]]], just one article and one subcategory. The article is already in [[:Category:Ethnic groups in Scotland]]; the subcategory is already in [[:Category:Ancient Scotland]], so a merge is probably not needed. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 19:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
*'''Delete''', redundant to [[:Category:Ethnic groups in Scotland]]. The two linked categories in other-language wikipedias were no doubt copied from here and can be merged likewise ([https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q8721181]). – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 10:06, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Tig Notaro ====
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==== Category:Religion in the Arab world by city ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''no consensus'''. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 11:06, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Religion in the Arab world by city}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''delete''', as it is largely overlapping with [[:Category:Religion in the Middle East by city]]. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 06:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
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*'''Merge''' (leaving cat-redirect) to [[:Category:Religion in the Middle East by city]], which is in practice covering exactly the same ground. IN theory north Africa is also part of the Arab World, but there are no articles in the subject which do not go in target. In fact all are already there, so that I could have said '''REdirect'''. [[User:Peterkingiron|Peterkingiron]] ([[User talk:Peterkingiron|talk]]) 17:13, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
*'''Keep''', I found and added [[:Category:Religion in Tunis]], and more categories could be built ě.g. for cities in Morocco and Algeria. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 23:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== St. Louis Commissioner of Police ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''merge and rename per option F''' <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small>. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 09:18, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:St. Louis Police Department Chiefs]] to ???? (see options below)
:* '''Propose merging''' [[:Category:St. Louis Commissioner of Police]]
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<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:DannyS712|DannyS712]] ([[User talk:DannyS712|talk]]) 08:39, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->
*{{ping|Tysports}} are you going to help us choose one? – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 15:00, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
*{{ping|Fayenatic london}} '''Option F''' <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Tysports|Tysports]] ([[User talk:Tysports#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tysports|contribs]]) 17:25, 28 June 2019 (UTC)</small>
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:U.S. Army installations named for Confederate soldiers ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''keep'''. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 09:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose Deleting''' [[:Category:U.S. Army installations named for Confederate soldiers]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' Per [[WP:SHAREDNAME]]
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<small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, [[User:DannyS712|DannyS712]] ([[User talk:DannyS712|talk]]) 08:39, 23 June 2019 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:Relist --></div><!-- Please add new comments below this line -->
*'''Delete''' (possibly listify) as generally non-defining, not a good way to categorize (it's better to categorize e.g. by ___location) and per ample precedent e.g. [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_November_15#Category:Colleges_and_universities_named_after_people]]. <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 19:09, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
*I have started the page [[List of U.S. Army installations named for Confederate soldiers]]. {{ping|Rogerd|Creuzbourg|SnowFire}} how important is it now for you to keep the category? – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 11:36, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
:: '''Keep.''' It’s important due to present controversies. It’s important for historical reasons (failure of reconstruction; reconciliation after the ACW; US Army naming policy). '''Definitely keep!''' It’s not like one category is excluding other categories for the same article. [[User:Creuzbourg|Creuzbourg]] ([[User talk:Creuzbourg|talk]]) 14:59, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
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:::* Yes it is, when the naming praxis in itself is controversial or of historical importance. Generally, I find it very peculiar that categories can be contentious and time being spent on discussing categories instead of improving articles. A category is just a means for a reader to reach the articles that are interesting. As already said, it’s not like one category is excluding other categories for the same article. Are there ulterior motives for wanting to remove this category? Political correctness perhaps? [[User:Creuzbourg|Creuzbourg]] ([[User talk:Creuzbourg|talk]]) 15:39, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
::::* The main motive is consistency of categorization; we don't generally categorize things by the origin of their name. [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2019_February_16#Category:Organisms_named_after_elements_in_the_Harry_Potter_franchise|Here's an example of an earlier CFD for similar categorization]] - do you think that was for (the same) "ulterior motives"? An article such as [[Fort Bragg]] contains thousands of facts; the origin of the name may be the fact that most interests you, but someone else might find another fact interesting. If we don't limit categorization then editors could get sucked into adding more and more category tags to articles ... <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 05:33, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::: Three Maryland congressmen have introduced a resolution calling for the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue from Antietam National Battlefield because it "memorializes leaders of the pro-slavery, traitorous Confederate South". Can't you see that "named for Confederate soldiers" is a relevant category given the present political discourse? It’s not like the trivia from popular culture you are referring to. Furthermore, per WP:SHAREDNAME: ''a category for unrelated people who happen to be named "Jackson" is not useful. However, a category may be useful if the people, objects, or places are directly related—for example, a category grouping subarticles directly related to a specific Jackson family.'' It is my opinion, based on facts and logic, that "named for Confederate soldiers" in this case corresponds to "the Jackson family." In addition, I do not see overcategorization as an especially pertinent problem. I find it more disturbing that a stubborn attachment to general principles is overriding the specific circumstances of an individual case. [[User:Creuzbourg|Creuzbourg]] ([[User talk:Creuzbourg|talk]]) 11:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Creuzbourg}} Thank you, that is what my motivation was. To shine a little bit of a light on this issue. --[[User:Rogerd|rogerd]] ([[User talk:Rogerd|talk]]) 20:51, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Robert Bloch ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete''' per [[WP:OCEPON]]. Where there are many articles for works but they are all in sub-categories for works, this does not justify an eponymous category, but rather means that it is ''not'' needed, if there are no other biography-related articles. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 09:26, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|Robert Bloch}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' [[WP:OCEPON]] '''--[[User:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:red;;">wooden</span>]][[User talk:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:blue;;">superman</span>]]''' 08:26, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
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*'''Delete'''. the Works-by and Films-based-on-works-by group together the relevant articles and are interlinked. Those articles don't need categorizing in [[:Category:American male writers]]. <b>[[User:DexDor|DexDor]]</b><sup> [[User talk:DexDor|(talk)]]</sup> 15:58, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
*Putting "Films based on works by X" within "works by X" will always be debatable. I have replaced the parenting with "related category" links in both directions. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 18:00, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:William Goldman ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''delete'''. Although some editors want to keep it, policy supports deletion. It is sufficient for navigation that [[William Goldman]], [[:Category:Works by William Goldman]] and [[:Category:Films based on works by William Goldman]] are interlinked; there is no other content. – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 10:38, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose deleting''' {{lc|William Goldman}}<br />
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' [[WP:OCEPON]] '''--[[User:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:red;;">wooden</span>]][[User talk:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:blue;;">superman</span>]]''' 08:01, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
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::* There appear to be plenty of subcats (as a sub-sub-cat is a subcat). [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 13:40, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
::::That's not how it works. The "Works by" category should be the parent cat. [[WP:OCEPON]] discourages eponymous categories when other options are available. The "Works by" tree is the established convention here. '''--[[User:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:red;;">wooden</span>]][[User talk:Woodensuperman|<span style="background:yellow; color:blue;;">superman</span>]]''' 11:22, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Organizations based in East Timor ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''rename''' per option A. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 08:45, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
:'''Propose renaming''' under one of the following options:
{{collapse top|'''Option A''' - "Organisations" to "Organizations" (Rename 8)}}
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* '''Support option A - use z''' English is not a native language here, so local usage does not apply.[[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 09:15, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
*'''Support option B'''. Fewer changes to make and per the original [[:Category:Organisations based in East Timor]]. Not an English-speaking country, so we should go with the commonest usage thus far. Commonwealth countries (including Australia, with which East Timor has close links) mostly favour the 's' spelling; US-influenced countries favour the 'z' spelling. Contrary to some claims, the 's' spelling has long been the norm in Britain and other countries; even Oxford University now prefers it, despite the OED's continued insistence on the 'z' version. The 'z' form is acceptable, of course, but they are certainly not on an equal footing. Claims that the 'z' form is more widely accepted are Americanocentric. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:15, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Joanna of Castile ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''rename'''. [[User:MER-C|MER-C]] 08:46, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
:* '''Propose renaming''' [[:Category:Joanna of Castile]] to [[:Category:Cultural depictions of Joanna of Castile]]
:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''rename''' per [[WP:OCEPON]], and apart from the eponymous article and her son, this category only contains cultural depictions. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 07:12, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
::'''Agree''' with the renaming - OK for me. --[[User:Fadesga|Fadesga]] ([[User talk:Fadesga|talk]]) 13:49, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
==== Category:Twin people from the United States ====
[[File:
▲:'''Nominator's rationale:''' '''merge or reverse merge''', the two categories have an overlapping scope. I have tagged both categories. [[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] ([[User talk:Marcocapelle|talk]]) 06:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
==== Organisations based in Haiti ====
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:''The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''
:''The result of the discussion was:'' <!-- Template:Cfd top --> '''rename using z''' (option A). – [[User:Fayenatic london|Fayenatic]] [[User talk:Fayenatic london|'''<span style="color: #FF0000;">L</span>'''ondon]] 10:21, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
:{{lc|Organisations based in Haiti}}
:'''Propose renaming''' under one of the following options:
{{collapse top|'''Option A, use 'z'''' - "Organisations" to "Organizations" (rename 16 categories)}}
# [[:Category:Organisations based in Haiti]] to [[:Category:Organizations based in Haiti]]
# [[:Category:Business organisations based in Haiti]] to [[:Category:Business organizations based in Haiti]]
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# [[:Category:Youth organisations based in Haiti]] to [[:Category:Youth organizations based in Haiti]]
{{collapse bottom}}
{{collapse top|'''Option B, use 's'''' - "Organizations" to "Organisations" (rename 8 categories)}}
# [[:Category:Educational organizations based in Haiti]] to [[:Category:Educational organisations based in Haiti]]
# [[:Category:Feminist organizations in Haiti]] to [[:Category:Feminist organisations in Haiti]]
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:::* Use 'z' until it becomes wrong (or not considered acceptable by the RfC or Cfd audience) at the country level. I am in the UK (well to the north of Oxford); 'z' was taught as correct (greatly preferable if one wished to be thought literate) in the 1950s and no doubt this is no longer the case. [http://www.metadyne.co.uk/ize.html This] gives a good summary. Anyway, why should Haiti use 'ise' which is definitely British English, rather than 'ize', which is an accepted variety of British English, with its own template {{tl|Use British English Oxford spelling}} with 1300 transclusions, and also correct US English? [[User:Oculi|Oculi]] ([[User talk:Oculi|talk]]) 13:53, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
::::*I went to (public) school in the 1970s and 1980s, well to the south of Oxford, and I can't recall anyone telling me either spelling was right or wrong or being patronising enough to inform me that the 'Oxford' spelling was "greatly preferable if one wished to be thought literate". However, a look at the media will show that the 's' spelling is now greatly preferred in the UK and most other Commonwealth countries (with the notable exception of Canada, of course, but including those in the Caribbean adjacent to Haiti). Nobody is saying that the 'z' spelling is not an accepted variety of British English; however, hopefully nobody is saying that the 's' spelling isn't either or is arrogant enough to allege that the 'z' spelling is somehow the only correct one and those who don't use it are not fully literate. Given Haiti is not an English-speaking country I fail to see why either spelling should be preferred for articles about it. We should therefore go with the one that has been used most and especially with the one already used in the top-level category for that country. Otherwise we are in danger of being seen to claim either that the 'z' spelling is "correct" and the 's' spelling "incorrect" or that because America uses the 'z' spelling that should be the default on Wikipedia, neither of which are acceptable viewpoints on Wikipedia. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:27, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
*'''Option A, use 'z'''' If there is an issue about local language variation it is about usage in Haiti. The idea that the Commonwealth has any influence over local spelling practice is a delusion. But, as I understand it, English is not much spoken in Haiti, so we should follow the top level category: Organization, because there is no local reason not to. [[User:Rathfelder|Rathfelder]] ([[User talk:Rathfelder|talk]]) 12:30, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
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:''The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's [[Help:Using talk pages|talk page]] or in a [[Wikipedia:Deletion review|deletion review]]). No further edits should be made to this section.''</div>
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