Talk:Blueberry and Ebionites: Difference between pages

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The '''Ebionites''' (from [[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]; '''אביונים''', '''Ebyonim''', "the poor ones") were an early [[sect]] of mostly [[Jewish]] followers of [[Jesus]], which flourished in the early centuries of the [[Common Era]], one of several ancient "[[Jewish Christian]]" groups that existed from the 2nd to the 5th century CE in the [[Land of Israel]].<ref>Tabor 1998</ref> In contrast to the dominant [[Christianity|Christian sects]] which came to believe Jesus was the incarnation of [[God the Son]] and the [[salvation|savior]] of mankind, Ebionites believed Jesus was a mortal human being, who by virtue of having become a sage and a [[holy man]],<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Hippolytus</ref> was [[adoptionism|chosen by God]] to be the [[Nevi'im|prophet]] of the [[Tikkun olam|Messianic Age]].<ref>Maccoby 1987</ref> They believed in the necessity of following [[Torah|Jewish religious law and rites]],<ref>Jewish Encyclopedia: Ebionites</ref> and therefore were strong adherents to Jesus' radical [[Expounding of the Law|interpretation of the Law]],<ref>Viljoen 2006</ref> while rejecting as heretical the [[authorship of the Pauline epistles|writings of Paul of Tarsus]].<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus</ref> They called themselves the Poor Ones because they regarded a [[vow of poverty]] as an experiential method of living in the "[[kingdom of God]]" on Earth.<ref>Mystae</ref> Accordingly they dispossessed themselves of all their goods and lived in [[Religious communism|religious communistic]] societies.<ref>Jewish Encyclopedia: Ebionites</ref>
Perhaps other blueberries native to the Americas such as Sparkleberry (''Vaccinium arboreum''), ''Vaccinium constablaei'', Darrow's Evergreen Blueberry, Highbush blueberry (''Vaccinium corymbosum''), Rabbiteye blueberry (''Vaccinium ashei''), Lowbush blueberry (''Vaccinium angustifolium'') should be mentioned? The article mentions US blueberries, but doesn't specify the species. // [[User:Liftarn|Liftarn]]
 
Ebionites were unavoidably in theological conflict with other streams of [[early Christianity]]. As a result, our knowledge of them is fragmentary, originating primarily from the [[polemics]] of the early [[Church Fathers]]. Their accounts at times seem to be contradictory due to the double application of the term "Ebionite", some referring to Jewish Christianity as a whole, others only to a sect within it. Many modern scholars argue that they existed as a distinct group from [[Pauline Christian]]s and [[Gnostic|Gnostic Christians]] before and after the [[Siege of Jerusalem (70)|destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE]].<ref>Eisenman 1996</ref> Some even contend that Ebionites were more faithful than [[Paul of Tarsus|Paul]] to the authentic [[Ministry of Jesus#Teachings|teachings of Jesus]].<ref>Maccoby 1987</ref><ref>Schonfield</ref><ref>Urrutia</ref><ref>Akers 2000</ref><ref>Schoeps 1969</ref><ref>Tabor 2006</ref>
==Growth==
Where do blueberries grow? Temperate zones? Subarctic? When is blueberrry season?
::Different species from subarctic to warm temperate North America - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 01:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
==History==
What about the european blueberry (Vaccinium myrtillus)?
Much of what we know about the Ebionites comes from brief references by early and influential [[theology|theologian]]s and writers in the [[Christian Church]], who considered them to be "[[heretics]]" and "[[Judaizers]]". [[Justin Martyr]], in the earliest text known to us, describes an unnamed sect estranged from the Church who observe the [[Law of Moses]], and who hold it of universal obligation.<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Justin Martyr (140 CE)</ref> [[Irenaeus]] was the first to use the term Ebionites to describe a heretical Judaizing sect, which he regarded as stubbornly clinging to the Law.<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus (180 CE)</ref> The most complete account comes from [[Epiphanius of Salamis]], who wrote a [[heresiology]] in the 4th century, denouncing 80 heretical sects, among them Ebionites.<ref>Koch 1976</ref> These are mostly general descriptions of their religious ideology, though sometimes there are quotations from their [[gospel]]s, which are otherwise lost to us. The [[Fathers of the Church]] sometimes distinguished Ebionites from [[Nazarene (sect)|Nazarene]]s, another early sect of Jewish followers of Jesus also believed to be an offshoot of the first [[Cenacle|Judeo-Christian synagogue]] built on Mount [[Zion]] between 70 and 132 CE,<ref>Pixner 1990</ref> one author often depending upon another for his assessment. However, [[Jerome]] clearly thinks that Ebionites and [[Nazoraean]]s were a single group.<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Jerome</ref> Without surviving texts, it is difficult to establish exactly the basis for their distinction.
::That's called [[Bilberry]] - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 01:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
<!-- More secular history to put them in the correct subculture and geographic region would be helpful: Who were the Ebionites, in terms of geography, chronology, and ethnicity. What world did they live in? Were they centered around Jerusalem, scattered throughout Palestine, or confined to remote rural areas? Why did the Ebionites lose the battle for orthodoxy? Is there any archeological evidence for any of the claims being made about Ebionites? -->
 
===Beliefs and practices===
OK, I added some info on species (and probably will do some more later). I am unfamiliar with Darrow's. Somebody else will have to do European blueberries.... [[User:Pollinator|Pollinator]] 13:27, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Most historical sources agree that Ebionites denied many of the central doctrines of mainstream Christianity such as the [[pre-existence]] and [[divinity of Jesus]], the [[trinity]] of God, the [[virgin birth]], and the [[Death and Resurrection of Jesus|death and resurrection of Jesus]] as an [[atonement]] for sin. Ebionites seemed to have emphasized the humanity of Jesus as the biological son of both [[Mary (mother of Jesus)|Mary]] and [[Saint Joseph|Joseph]], who became the [[Messiah|messianic]] "[[Prophet#Prophets in the Tanakh .28Hebrew Bible.29|prophet]] like [[Moses]]" when he was [[Anointing|anointed]] with the [[Shekhinah|holy spirit]] at his baptism.{{citation needed}}
::No European species are called "blueberry" - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 01:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
[[Image:Bloch-SermonOnTheMount.jpg|thumb|300px|right|[[Jesus]]' [[expounding of the Law]] through the ''[[Sermon on the Mount]]'' is at the core of the argument about the relationship between the views attributed to Jesus, and those attributed to [[Moses]]. This issue may have been a central one to Ebionites.]]
Aren't blueberry and [[Vaccinium]] the same articles? Especially the swedish link may be wrong! [[User:82.82.127.8|82.82.127.8]] 23:04, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
: I wish Wikipedia would standardize on using the scientific names of plant species, with redirects from the common names. But it seems that a lot, probaby the majority, use the common names as the main page, so it's a hodgepodge right now. What Swedish link? [[User:Pollinator|Pollinator]] 19:07, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 
Some sources also suggest that Ebionites believed all [[Jew]]s and [[gentile]]s must observe [[Mosaic Law]]; but it must be understood through Jesus' [[expounding of the Law]], which he taught during his ''[[Sermon on the Mount]]''.<ref>Viljoen 2006</ref> Therefore, of the books of the ''[[New Testament]]'' Ebionites only accepted an [[Aramaic of Jesus|Aramaic]] version of the ''[[Gospel of Matthew]]'', referred to as the ''[[Gospel of the Hebrews]]'', as additional [[scripture]]. This version of Matthew, critics reported, omitted the first two chapters (on the [[nativity of Jesus]]), and started with the [[baptism of Jesus]] by John.<ref>Maccoby 1987</ref> Ebionites may have [[closed communion|restricted communion]] only to gentiles who [[Conversion to Judaism|converted to Judaism]].<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Justin Martyr</ref> Like mainstream Jews, Ebionites revered [[Jerusalem]] as the holiest city.<ref>Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus</ref>
::The swedish link is on [[blueberry]]. No, [[Vaccinium]] and [[blueberry]] are not the same. ''Vaccinium'' includes many species which would never be called blueberry (such as the [[cranberry]]). Certainly settling on scientific names would be good, although redirects would not solve all the problems either. A combination of redirects and slightly enlarged disambiguation pages would probably do it. [[User:WormRunner|WormRunner]] 18:50, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
:::I guess I'm thick here, but I still don't "get" the "swedish connection." The info is mostly about North America. I wish there were more info on Wikipedia on this and other crops from elsewhere in the world. [[User:Pollinator|Pollinator]] 19:16, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 
Ebionites viewed [[John the Baptizer]] as the precursor to Jesus, and the [[Desposyni]] (a sacred name reserved only for Jesus' blood relatives), especially [[James the Just]], as his legitimate successors, rather than [[Saint Peter|Peter]].<ref>Tabor 1998</ref> Ebionites, however, denounced [[Paul of Tarsus|Paul]] as an [[apostate]] from the Law and a false apostle. Epiphanius claims that some Ebionites [[gossip|gossiped]] that Paul was a Greek who converted to Judaism in order to marry the [[Kohen Gadol|High Priest]]'s daughter, and then apostasized when she rejected him.<ref>Epiphanius, Panarion 16.9</ref>
[[User:82.82.127.8]] seems to have been talking about the "Other languages: Svenska" link to Vaccinium myrtilus, but as far as I can see, that seems to be a decent link for blueberry and not for Vaccinium. I agree about the non-american crops! [[User:WormRunner|WormRunner]] 19:46, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)
 
Scholar James Tabor argues that Ebionites rejected doctrines and traditions, which they believed had been added to Mosaic Law, including scribal alterations of the texts of scripture; and that they had a superseding interest in restoring the more primitive form of worship reflected in the [[Jewish history|pre-Mosaic period of Judaism]].<ref>Tabor 1998</ref> Tabor relies on Epiphanius' description of Ebionites as [[Antinomianism|rejecting parts or most of the Law]], as [[Christian vegetarianism|vegetarians]], as opposed to [[Korban|animal sacrifice]]; and his quoting of their gospel as ascribing these injunctions to Jesus.<ref>Epiphanius, Panarion 30.16.5, 30.18.7-9, 30.22.4</ref> Scholar [[Shlomo Pines]] counters that all these teachings are "[[Gnosticism|Gnostic Christian]]" in origin and are characteristics of the [[Elcesaites|Elcesaite]] sect, which have been mistakenly or falsely attributed to Ebionites.<ref>Pines 1966</ref> Without a consensus among scholars, the issue remains contentious.
Have done a fair bit of editing on [[blueberry]], [[cranberry]] and [[cowberry]] - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 01:53, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 
===Influence===
== No blueberries in Europe? ==
The influence of Ebionites is debated. Scholar Hans-Joachim Schoeps argues that their primary influence on mainstream Christianity was to aid in the defeat of [[gnosticism]].<ref>Schoeps 1969</ref> It has also been argued by writer [[Keith Akers]] that they had an influence on [[Islam]] and the [[Sufi]]s.<ref>Akers 2000</ref> Ebionites may be represented in history as the sect encountered by the Muslim historian Abd al-Jabbar (''c.'' 1000) almost 500 years later than most Christian historians allow for their survival.<ref>Pines 1966</ref> An additional possible mention of surviving Ebionite communities existing in the lands of the east, Theyma and Thilmes, around the 11th century, is said to be in ''Sefer Ha'masaoth,'' the "Book of the Travels" of Rabbi [[Benjamin of Tudela]], a [[sephardic]] rabbi of Spain.{{citation needed}} In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, several small yet competing [[new religious movement]]s, such as the [[Ebionite Jewish Community]],<ref>Self Help Guide 2006</ref> have emerged claiming be the legitimate descendants in teaching and practice of ancient Ebionites. However, they possess no authentic historical ties to the early Ebionites.
 
==Ebionite writings==
So we don't have blueberries in Europe? What should we call them then? They sure are blue. [[User:Brutulf|Brutulf]] 15:20, Mar 17, 2005 (UTC)
Few writings of Ebionites have survived, and in uncertain form. The [[Clementine literature|''Recognitions of Clement'' and the ''Clementine Homilies'']], two 3rd-century Christian works, are regarded by general scholarly consensus as largely or entirely [[Jewish Christians|Jewish Christian]] in origin and reflect Jewish Christian ideas and beliefs. These can be found in volume 8 of the [[Ante-Nicene Fathers]]. The exact relationship between Ebionites and these writings is debated, but Epiphanius's description of the Ebionites in ''[[Panarion]]'' 30 bears repeated and striking similarity to the ideas in the ''Recognitions'' and ''Homilies''. Koch speculates that Epiphanius likely relied upon a version of the ''Homilies'' as a source document.<ref>Koch 1976</ref>
:you can grow blueberries in many parts of Europe, but the native species of blue berries are [[bilberry|bilberries]] so far as I know. [[User:Seglea|seglea]] 21:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
 
The [[Catholic Encyclopedia]], 1908, mentions four classes of Ebionite writings:{{citation needed}}
== what is the chemical formula of blueberries? ==
* ''[[Gospel of the Ebionites]]''. Ebionites used only the ''[[Gospel of Matthew]]'' (according to Irenaeus). [[Eusebius]] (''Historia Ecclesiae'' IV, xxi, 8) mentions a ''[[Gospel of the Hebrews]]'', which is often identified as the Aramaic original of Matthew, written with Hebrew letters. Such a work was known to [[Hegesippus (chronicler)|Hegesippus]] (according to Eusebius, ''Historia Eccl''., ), [[Origen]] (according to Jerome, ''De vir.'', ill., ii), and to [[Clement of Alexandria]] (''Strom.'', II, ix, 45). [[Epiphanius of Salamis]] attributes this gospel to [[Nazarenes]], and claims that Ebionites only possessed an incomplete, falsified, and truncated copy. (''[[Adversus Haereses]]'', xxix, 9). The question remains whether or not Epiphanius was able to make a genuine distinction between Nazarenes and Ebionites.
* [[New Testament apocrypha]]: The ''Circuits of Peter'' (''periodoi Petrou'') and ''Acts of the Apostles'', amongst which is the work usually titled the ''Ascents of James'' (''anabathmoi Iakobou''). The first-named books are substantially contained in the Homilies of Clement under the title of Clement's ''Compendium of Peter's itinerary sermons'', and also in the ''Recognitions'' attributed to Clement. They form an early Christian didactic fiction to express Jewish Christian views, i.e. the primacy of James, their connection with Rome, and their antagonism to [[Simon Magus]], as well as Gnostic doctrines. Van Voorst opines of the ''Ascents of James'' (R 1.33-71), "There is, in fact, no section of the Clementine literature about whose origin in Jewish Christianity one may be more certain".<ref>Van Voorst 1989</ref> Despite this assertion, he expresses reservations that the material is genuinely Ebionite in origin.
* The Works of [[Symmachus the Ebionite]], i.e. his Greek translation of the Old Testament, used by Jerome, fragments of which exist, and his lost ''[[Hypomnemata]]'' which was written to counter the canonical Gospel of Matthew. The latter work, which is totally lost (Eusebius, ''Hist. Eccl.'', VI, xvii; Jerome, ''De vir.'' ill., liv), is probably identical with ''De distinctione præceptorum'', mentioned by Ebed Jesu (Assemani, ''Bibl. Or.'', III, 1).
* The ''Book of Elchesai'' (Elxai), or of "The Hidden power", claimed to have been written about AD 100 and brought to Rome about 217 by Alcibiades of Apamea. Those who accepted its doctrines and new practices were called [[Elcesaites]]. (Hipp., ''Philos.'', IX, xiv-xvii; Epiphanius., ''Adv. Haer.'', xix, 1; liii, 1.)
 
It is also speculated that the core of the ''[[Gospel of Barnabas]]'', beneath a polemical medieval [[Islam|Muslim]] overlay, may have been based upon an Ebionite document.<ref>Toland 1718</ref> The existence and origin of this source continues to be debated by scholars.<ref>Blackhirst 2000</ref>
Martian blueberries are made of [[hematite]], chemical formula Fe<sub>2</sub>O<sub>3</sub> [[User:Technopilgrim|technopilgrim]] 01:17, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 
== Notes ==
:Any plant or animal is composed of thousands (or millions) of different chemicals, and we can't possibly give the formula for all of them here. The formula is often not sufficient, either. For exampe fructose (the sugar in blueberries and many other fruits) has the same chemical formula as glucose (C6H12O6), but the atoms are arranged slightly differently. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 14:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
<div class="references-small"><references/></div>
 
==References==
==anti cancer berries==
*Akers, Keith. ''The Lost Religion of Jesus : Simple Living and Nonviolence in Early Christianity''. New York: Lantern Books, 2000.
*Ante-Nicene Fathers, Hippolytus, "Refutation of All Heresies" 7.22 [http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/hippolytus7.html]
*Ante-Nicene Fathers, Irenaeus, "Adversus Haereses" 1.26.2 [http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-58.htm#P6642_1589520].
*Ante-Nicene Fathers, Jerome, "Epistle to Augustine" 112.13 [http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102075.htm].
*Ante-Nicene Fathers, Justin Martyr, "Dialogue With Trypho The Jew" xlvii (47.4) [http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4424_915856].
*Blackhirst, R. ''Barnabas and the Gospels: Was There an Early Gospel of Barnabas?''. J. Higher Criticism, 7/1, pp 1-22, Spring 2000. [http://atheistalliance.org/jhc/articles/Blackhirst_Barnabas.htm]
*Cameron, Ron. ''The Other Gospels''. Philadephia: Westminster Press, 1982, pp 103-106.
*Danielou, Jean. ''The Theology of Jewish Christianity''. Chicago: The Henry Regnery Company, 1964.
*Eisenman, Robert. ''James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls''. New York: Viking, 1996.
*Epiphanius of Salamis. ''The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis''. Book I (Sects 1-46), translated by Frank Williams, Brill Academic Publishers, Leiden, 1987 [http://books.google.com/books?id=K22xQJbzdUIC]
*Klijnm A.F.J.; Reinink, G.J. ''Patristic Evidence for Jewish-Christian Sects.'' 1973.
*Koch, Glenn Alan. ''A Critical Investigation of Epiphanius' Knowdedge of the Ebionites: A Translation and Critical Discussion of 'Panarion' 30''. University of Pennsylvania, 1976.
*Lüdemann, Gerd. ''Opposition to Paul in Jewish Christianity''. Minneapolis: Fortress Press, 1989.
*Maccoby, Hyam. ''The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity''. New York: Harper & Row, 1987.
*Pines, Shlomo. ''The Jewish Christians Of The Early Centuries Of Christianity According To A New Source''. Proceedings of the Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities II, No. 13, 1966.
*Pixner, Bargil. ''Church of the Apostles found on Mt. Zion''. Biblical Archaeological Review. May/June 1990
*Schoeps, Hans-Joachim. ''Jewish Christianity: Factional Disputes in the Early Church.'' Trans. Douglas R. A. Hare. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1969.
*Self Help Guide / Jesus Christ, 2006. [http://selfhelp-guide.com/heros4u/jesus_christ.htm]
*Shand, Richard. ''The Ministry of Jesus''. Illuminations: The Real Jesus?, 19 December 2006, 16:00, [http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/ministry.html] [accessed 19 December 2006]
*Skriver, Carl Anders. ''The Forgotten Beginnings of Creation and Christianity''. Denver: Vegetarian Press, 1990.
*Tabor, James D. ''Ancient Judaism: Nazarenes and Ebionites''. The Jewish Roman World of Jesus, 31 August 2006, 20:02, [http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/ebionites.html] [accessed 31 August 2006]
*Toland, John. ''Nazarenus, or Jewish, Gentile and Mahometan Christianity'' (1718)
*Vaclavik, Charles. ''The Origin of Christianity: The Pacifism, Communalism, and Vegeterianism of Primitive Christianity''. Platteville, Wisconsin: Kaweah Publishing Company, 2004.
*Van Voorst, Robert E. ''The Ascents of James: History and Theology of a Jewish-Christian Community''. Scholars Press, Atlanta, GA, 1989.
*Viljoen, Francois. ''Jesus' Teaching on the Torah in the Sermon on the Mount''. Neotestamenica 40.1, 135-155, 2006. [http://www.geocities.com/neotestamentica/archive/401/401gviljoen-sample.pdf]
 
==External links==
i have read that blueberries are good at detoxifying people, and i have read tat they are good anti carcenegens. can anyone confirm this?
*[http://www.ccel.org/w/wace/biodict/htm/TOC.htm ''A Dictionary of Christian Biography and Literature to the End of the Sixth Century A.D., with an Account of the Principal Sects and Heresies'']
[[User:Khulhy|Khulhy]] 02:16, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
*[[Catholic Encyclopedia]]: [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm Ebionites]
*[http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/E/ebionites.html Comparative Index to Islam: Ebionites]
*[http://members.tripod.com/~ebionite/mac15.htm ''Evidence of the Ebionites'']
*[http://jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=22&letter=E&search=ebionites Jewish Encyclopedia: Ebionites]
*[http://compassionatespirit.com/literature_on_the_ebionites.htm Literature on the Ebionites]
*[http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/JDTABOR/ebionites.html ''Nazarenes and Ebionites'']
*[http://www.compassionatespirit.com/Recognitions-and-Homilies-home.htm Recognitions of Clement and Clementine Homilies]
*[http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Ebionites Encyclopedia Britannica: Ebionites]
 
[[Category:Ancient Christian Denominations]]
:The only confirmed benefit I know of is the anti-oxidants, which prevent the cellular damage associated with aging. As far as other benefits, they may well be by "replacement". That is, you will be less likely to get sick if you eat lots of blueberries instead of chili-cheese fries, not because the blueberries cure disease, but because the chili-cheese fries cause disease. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 13:53, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[[Category:Ancient Roman Christianity]]
[[Category:Judeo-Christian topics]]
[[Category:Judaism]]
[[Category:Heresy]]
 
[[de:Ebioniten]]
== why was my link removed ==
[[es:Ebionismo]]
 
[[fr:Judéo-nazaréisme]]
Just wanted to know why the link that I placed on this page to Stone Hill Blueberry Farm was removed. This site is an informational site about a Blueberry Farm in New York and has no shopping cart.
[[ia:Ebionitismo]]
 
[[it:Ebioniti]]
Thanks
[[lt:Ebionizmas]]
 
[[nl:Ebionieten]]
:I removed it because it is a page promoting a specific blueberry farm. The whole front page promotes the farm as a business and a lot of the links do too. If a link to this page is allowed then we will end up with links to every blueberry farm with a page or two providing blueberry information. --[[User:Beirne|Beirne]] 12:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
[[pl:Ebionici]]
 
[[pt:Ebionismo]]
Thats fair enough I can except that. I have to question why a link to the Michigan Blueberry Growers Association is allowed to stay though. It's home page includes a link in its main navigation to the blueberry store .com which is an online store. Both sites happen to be owned by the same company according to whosis. Seems like that is promoting an online store.
[[ru:Эбиониты]]
 
[[fi:Ebionitismi]]
Thanks for letting me know why it was pulled off.
 
:Well, any web site will eventually lead to an ad somewhere. I suppose the standard used here is that the page itself can't be an ad, but any links leading to an add can be permitted, as long as the page itself has useful info. [[User:StuRat|StuRat]] 13:45, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 
::Here is the standard from the "What should not be linked to" section of the [[Wikipedia:External links]] page: ''Links to a site that is selling products, unless it applies via a "do" above.'' --[[User:Beirne|Beirne]] 16:02, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 
:Good point on the Michigan page. I removed its link, too. --[[User:Beirne|Beirne]] 16:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 
 
:Thank you for providing the link to the external linking rules--I had not seen that although I did look at the policies I guess I did not did deep enough. Just want to bring up a couple points.
1. I cringe when I see where I wrote except instead of accept.
2. Although I can certainly see where others would look at the site I posted as "just and ad" I don't look at it that way. This is a site that I have worked on for over 4 years, I have never made a penny on it, and don't plan to in the future. It truly was designed as a favor to the owners. The only way the owners can ever make a penny off this site is if someone sees it and decides to come pick berries. The chances of that happening are pretty slim. Which brings me to....
3. Now I see how wrong this link was. Links on here need to be something that is of use to anyone who visits, not just people in a certain area. I have learned from my mistake.
4. Finally, I want you to know that I posted in good faith--it was not an attempt to mess up Wikipedia. I thought the site was a good addition to the page--I was wrong.
Thank you for your time.
 
==Collaboration==
Myself and [[User:Hollow Wilerding]] have recently come to the conclusion of editing the blueberry article and promoting it to [[Wikipedia:Featured articles|featured article status]]. The talk page has been cleaned for the upcoming collaboration, which will begin within the next month. If you would like to contribute to the collaboration, feel free to edit the article. --[[User:DrippingInk|DrippingInk]] 01:49, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Two signatures have been endorsed. The collaboration will begin shortly. &mdash;[[User:Hollow Wilerding|Hollow Wilerding]] 02:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::Do blueberries grow in [[Europe]]? According to one source, they have to be taken to the continent from a different part of the world. I feel rather skeptical about this, though I could be wrong. --[[User:DrippingInk|DrippingInk]] 00:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:::I'm uncertain myself, [[User:DrippingInk|DrippingInk]]. We'll debate more on this topic when the collaboration begins in a few weeks. &mdash;[[User:Hollow Wilerding|Hollow Wilerding]] 21:36, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::::Yes and no. Species of ''[[Vaccinium]]'' are native in Europe (and Asia), but the name 'blueberry' is not used for them in UK English, they are given other names like Bilberry and Whortleberry. A classic example of common names being a complete mess (and at risk of generating difficult POV-disputes). Related names are used in some other European languages, e.g. Scots ''Blaeberry'' and Swedish ''Blåbär'' both translate directly as blueberry, and are applied to the European species ''Vaccinium myrtillus''. I think this is going to make any realistic raising of 'Blueberry' to a featured article very difficult if not impossible; the name is too loosely applied, not being a single species, nor being applied consistently in different countries. My own preference would be to deal with most of the botanical and cultivation information (where it applies to all species in the genus) at the genus page ''[[Vaccinium]]'', and any remaining botanical info unique to particular species at individual species pages titled by their scientific names. Then the Blueberry page would be restricted to a page of culinary and social information (traditions, etc). - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 01:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::::: I'm not greatly optimistic about getting blueberry featured either, but I think there's some hope of detangling the blueberry mess in the blueberry page. Trying to lump common botanical and (especially) cultivation info into [[Vaccinium]] seems to fall on its face when you consider how different [[cranberry]] harvesting is from most of the other more blueberry-like species. I think we go ahead and include ''Vaccinium myrtillus'' in this article; everyhing I've seen seems to indicate it is similar enough in appearance and use, no? &mdash;[[User:Bunchofgrapes|Bunchofgrapes]] ([[User talk:Bunchofgrapes|talk]]) 03:24, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::::::The botanical info at ''[[Vaccinium]]'' certainly needs a lot of work (which I'll get down to soon), but it can (and should, unless the genus gets split up) all be on that page. Cultivation - that for cranberries is already on that page; for blueberries, that too differs from species to species (e.g. highbush and lowbush species differ in requirements), so that too should perhaps devolve to individual species pages. If ''Vaccinium myrtillus'' were included, it would introduce a US-POV out of keeping with wiki NPOV policy, as it isn't called a blueberry, so that would not work well. - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 12:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::::::: ... and if ''Vaccinium myrtillus'' isn't handled it introduces a US-POV for ignoring Europe's "blueberry". A cunning trap set for us indeed. Perhaps this article could focus more on the culinary properties of those species commonly called "blueberries" and thereby avoid some of the cultivation and botanical issues? I know, I know, then it won't be comprehensive. Hmph. (Postscript: wait, I see that's what you already pretty much suggested, MPF. I guess I'm in agreement.) &mdash;[[User:Bunchofgrapes|Bunchofgrapes]] ([[User talk:Bunchofgrapes|talk]]) 17:03, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 
I've got the ''Vaccinium'' page sorted a bit from the USDA genetics resources page, tho' haven't been able to find any info on how the different sections are related to each other. But all the species called 'blueberry' do cluster in one section (sect. ''Cyanococcus'', which, BTW, is Greek for guess what!), which does give better options on making 'blueberry' a valid botanical grouping as well as a cultural etc page. It does make the options for getting the page to featured quality a lot better - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 17:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 
:Got the botanical side here sorted in more detail now. - [[User:MPF|MPF]] 18:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 
::We're working hard, I see. So will it be impossible to upgrade blueberry to the featured article level? If the task is too difficult, I could move the collaboration to something within a simpler range. (Although I'm a bit skeptical on the fact that blueberry can't become featured.) &mdash;[[User:Hollow Wilerding|Hollow Wilerding]] 00:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 
Due to the large percentage of Wikipedians who believe that blueberry is too specific of a topic to edit, the collaboartion will be moving to [[garlic]]. Thank you for understanding. &mdash;[[User:Hollow Wilerding|Hollow Wilerding]] 00:24, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 
If I am wanting the best book available on the market that teaches the basics of Blueberry growing techniques in Texas what book should I buy? Also since I have 2 acres to dedicate to growing them should I find a buyer first? Your help is greatly appreciated. (I have a green thumb and have several years to kill so I think I will tincker with blueberries; please send your un biased thoughts)