Pretty Woman and Talk:Wales/Archive 1: Difference between pages

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:''For the Roy Orbison song sometimes known as "Pretty Woman", see [[Oh, Pretty Woman]].''

{{Infobox Film |

name = Pretty Woman |

image = PrettyWoman.jpg |

imdb_id = 0100405 |

producer = [[Arnon Milchan]]<br>[[Steven Reuther]] |

director = [[Garry Marshall]] |

writer = [[J.F. Lawton]] |

starring = [[Julia Roberts]]<br>[[Richard Gere]]<br>[[Jason Alexander]]<br>[[Hank Azaria]]<br>[[Ralph Bellamy]]<br>[[Elinor Donahue]]<br>[[Hector Elizondo]]<br>[[Larry Miller]]<br>[[Laura San Giacomo]]|

music = [[James Newton Howard]] |

cinematography = [[Charles Minsky]] |

editing = [[Raja Gosnell]]<br>[[Priscilla Nedd-Friendly]] |

distributor = [[Buena Vista Pictures]] |

released = [[March 23]], [[1990]] |

runtime = 119 min. |

language = [[English language|English]] |

budget = $14,000,000 (est.)

}}

'''''Pretty Woman''''' is an [[United States|American]] [[romantic comedy]] [[motion picture]] that was one of the top films at the [[box office]] in [[1990 in film|1990]]. The title character, a [[prostitute]] named Vivian Ward, was played by [[Julia Roberts]], who received a [[Golden Globe Award]] for her role. She was also nominated for an [[Academy Award for Best Actress]]. Screenwriter J. F. Lawton was nominated for a [[Writers Guild of America Award|Writers Guild Award]] and a [[British Academy of Film and Television Arts|British Academy Award]].

== Intro Text ==

{{spoiler}}

Is it just me or is the intro text

==Plot==

The film opens with Lewis Enterprises CEO Edward Lewis (Gere) and his lawyer Phil Stuckey (Alexander) attending a party with many others, in which Edward has a fight over the phone with his girlfriend. Wanting to go home, Edward borrows Phil's car to drive through the Hollywood Boulevard to the Regent Beverly Wilshire Hotel......that is, until he loses his way.

"The nation has had no real independence since 1282, when it was taken by the English King. It has no significant national government (see the National Assembly for Wales), does not issue its own currency and is not in control of any armed forces. These are the powers of the national government of the UK, based at Westminster."

Around the same time, a prostitute named Vivian Ward (Roberts), while out with her friend Kit DeLuca (Giacomo), spots Edward in his car struggling with the gearbox. Low on money due to Kit's drug-buying, Vivian offers Edward a date, but Edward instead asks for directions. Vivian agrees, but charges him $10. Instead, Edward agrees to pay her $20 for her to guide him to the Hotel.

a tad anti-Welsh? Seems almost unecessary information at best, Welsh-bashing at worst. Edward I is covered below, and what other nation governed externally has such a putdown for an intro? I'd rather see geographic ___location (western peninsula of GB), statement on no taxing powers, mention of the Acts of Union etc. [[User:mynameismonkey|mynameismonkey]]

Upon arriving, Edward disguises Vivian in a raincoat so that she will be permitted into the penthouse with him, where she agrees to spend the night with him for a fair $300.

The next day, Edward speaks on the phone with Phil, who tells him that if he is to meet with the Morses, the joint owners of Morse Industries, he should go with a date, so Edward persuades Vivian to spend the week with Edward, and she agrees do to so for $3000.

== Welsh Politics ==

Going to work, Edward leaves Vivian with a credit card to use for clothes shopping, but the snobbish owners of the shop instead shun Vivian for her prostitute appearance. Returning to the Hotel, Vivian meets the manager, Barney Thompson (Elizondo), to whom she expresses her frustration. Barney then phones a friend of his who owns a clothes shop and sends Vivian to buy clothes there. Vivian returns from the shop with a cocktail dress, and gratefully thanks Barney for his kindness.

I just wanted to know, what can Orders-in-council do for Wales? I thought also that in theory, the prince of wales is actually the real Head of State in Wales?

That night, after Barney teaches Vivian proper table manners, Edward and Vivian go to the Voltaire resturaunt, where they meet the elderly James Morse and his grandson David. They talk about business during the meal, but the discussion grows colder and colder until they reach a point where James and David storm out of the resturaunt.

[[User:Amlder20|Amlder20]] 23:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Returning to the Hotel, Edward goes down to the Lobby and plays the piano for the cleaners until 3 AM, when Vivian comes to check on him. Politely asking the cleaners to leave the room for a while, Edward and Vivian make love on the piano.

:I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but as Wales is bound by the laws of "England and Wales" (medieval imperialist power-term if ever there was one!) then Orders in Council can be used to subject anyone in Wales to pretty much anything the Privy Council decree, just as they can in England. This came into full force during the second world war for example, when large portions of land belonging to Welsh farmers were taken away from them by the MoD under spurious O-in-C inspired control orders. The local officials on the ground were primed to say it would be "returned after the war" - of course, in many cases, it never was. [[User:MarkThomas|MarkThomas]] 08:27, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The next day, after Vivian tells Edward about the snobs who shunned her, Edward agrees to escort Vivian to another clothes shop, where they meet the manager Mr. Hollister (Larry Miller). Edward manages to bribe Hollister with a really offensive and obscene amount of money to have the staff suck up to Vivian. But after Edward leaves for a meeting with his business employees, the staff get carried away and literally wait on her by ordering a pizza and giving her a free tie. On her way home, Vivian visits the snobbish shop and informs them of the huge profits they could have made had they not shunned her.

The Government of Wales Act 2006 means that for the first time ever Orders in Council for Wales will be signed by the Queen on the advice of the First Minister of Wales and Welsh Ministers instead of by the Prime Minister. Whilst still subject to supervision by the UK government this represents a definate step forward for Wales as far as equality with Scotland stands.

The following afternoon, after a bath together, Edward and Vivian go to a Polo Match, where Vivian meets Phil and his wife Elizabeth. They also see David Morse, who turns out to also be a Polo player for the losing team. Curious to know about Vivian, Phil pesters Edward non-stop, eventually forcing Edward to reveal that Vivian is actually a prostitute he picked up in the Hollywood Boulevard the night he borrowed Phil's car. Phil laughs hysterically as Edward goes to speak to Senator Adams, who provided him with information regarding the activities of Morse Industries.

==Removed list of places==

Meanwhile, Phil goes and tells Vivian that Edward revealed his secret, unintentionally hurting Vivian and angering her at Edward for his indiscretion. This leads to a nasty fight between Edward and Vivian when they get back to the hotel, which results in Vivian packing her things, ready to leave, but Edward apologizes and says that he was also hurt when he saw her talking to David Morse. Vivian accepts his apology and agrees to stay.

I've removed the list of places which would otherwise be orphaned, as they are all now linked to, with the exception of [[Abersychan]], leaving no good reason for them being listed. [[User:Warofdreams|Warofdreams]] 17:15, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The next day, Edward decides to take the day off work and puts Phil in charge of things. Edward and Vivian then catch a plane to San Francisco to see the opera, which Vivian comes to adore. Edward takes another day off, much to Phil's annoyance and frustration, since he believes that this may interfere with business. That night, Vivian sees Edward sitting up, but asleep. She passionately kisses him, which wakes Edward up, and they make love for the very first time.

== Not the Royal Coat of Arms ==

On Edward and Vivian's penultimate day together, Edward recieves a phone call from Phil, who tells him that the Morses have surrendered and decided to give up their company. During the meeting, Edward asks for a private conversation with James Morse, in which he tells Morse that he no longer wishes to take over his company, but rather help him run it. Calling the others back inside, Edward departs and playfully asks Phil to finish the meeting.

I am a republican, so what do I care? But that is not the Royal Coat of Arms for Wales. maybe it is something to do with the Prince of Wales? But he is not the sovreign so his coat of arms are not those of Wales.

Back at the hotel, Vivian packs up her things for an early departure when the doorbell rings. Vivian answers and sees that it is Phil, who has come to speak to Edward, who is taking a walk in the hotel gardens for a while. But Phil doesn't seem to be himself, since he is trying to keep his anger and frustration bottled up inside. Phil has a drink and sits down with Vivian. He tries to touch her, but she hits his hand away and he unintentionally releases his anger on Vivian, who bites his hand and makes him even more angry, causing him to try to rape Vivian. Edward arrives at the last minute and drags the completely berserk Phil to the door, where he punches him across the face to calm him down. Fending Phil off with stupid excuses, Edward angrily tells Phil to leave the hotel room.

:I think you're right. What references do we have for this coat of arms, and what is it supposed to be the coat of arms ''of''? I can see how the royal coats of arms for Scotland and England-and-Wales are different, because they have separate heraldic systems. But that doesn't explain how Wales could have one. Perhaps it's historical, and it's the arms of Glynd&#373;r or someone, but then it should be in the history section. Can anyone explain why we should keep this? [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] 00:47, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

After Phil leaves, Edward and Vivian nurse themselves, but Vivian then leaves with her things after a warm goodbye. On her way out, she also meets and bids farewell to Barney Thompson.

::After a little googling, it turns out that ''quarterly or and argent four lions passant gardant counterchanged'' appears to be associated with [[Llywelyn ap Gruffydd]]: [http://www.baronage.co.uk/classic1/herart07.html]. Some more searching shows that Burke's Peerage appears to believe that these are "the arms of the Principality of Wales"[http://www.burkes-peerage.net/Sites/Peerage/SitePages/page62-6d.asp], which is probably authoritative enough. [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] 00:59, Apr 1, 2004 (UTC)

The next day, Edward prepares to catch his plane to New York, but decides to pay Vivian a visit to persuade her to come with him to the Big Apple. Handing her a bouquet of roses, Edward takes Vivian in his arms and kisses her warmly.

:::I'm about as nationalist a Welshman as you'll ever find, but there is no "royal coat of arms" other than that of the UK. The arms depicted on the page are Llywelyn's. [[User:mynameismonkey|mynameismonkey]]

==Overview==

''Pretty Woman'' is the highest-grossing film of the [[romantic comedy]] genre, and possibly the most well-known. Set in [[Hollywood, California|Hollywood]] during the early [[1990s]], its themes include the tension between [[romantic love]] and [[social class]]: the main characters represent utter opposites in social class and wealth, while both work in occupations considered indecent by mainstream society, and yet are given sympathetic depiction. The film can be seen as a modern adaptation of the ''[[Pygmalion (mythology)|Pygmalion]]'' myth, and also bears striking resemblences to [[George Bernard Shaw]]'s [[Pygmalion (play)|play of the same name]], which also formed the basis for the [[Broadway theater|Broadway]] musical ''[[My Fair Lady]]''.

::::I'm a Welshman, not a nationalist (although come on Wales, let's beat England this afternoon!) but a communist, but there are seperate coats of arms for Scotland and England (although they're almost identical). Charles as Prince of Wales has his own standard as can be seen at http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-royal.html#pow [[User:Dafyddyoung|Dafyddyoung]] 16:38, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The male lead is a businessman Edward Lewis (played by [[Richard Gere]]). While ruthless in business &mdash; he is a "[[corporate raider]]" &mdash; he is portrayed as intelligent, sensitive, and pensive, unlike the more common stereotype of the late [[1980s]] financial [[tycoon]] as coarse and narcissistic (and often [[nouveau riche]]). Asking for directions to his hotel, he meets a prostitute, Vivian. (In the United States, as in much of the world, prostitutes who work on the streets come disproportionately from the lower classes, and Vivian suffers from financial desperation.) Because of her deprived background, she is naïve and unaware of social graces, resulting in mild embarrassment for herself and Edward, but good-natured, cheerful, and unpretentious. In contrast to class and occupational archetypes &mdash; she's smart, kind, and perceptive. An unlikely love relationship grows between Edward and Vivian, and throughout the movie they struggle with the differences in social class and values.

OK, I take it that the above backs up my edit today? [[User: Doops|Doops]] | [[User_talk:Doops | talk]] 06:30, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

==Music==

The film features the song "[[Oh, Pretty Woman]]" by [[Roy Orbison]], the title of which inspired that of the movie. [[Roxette]]'s "[[It Must Have Been Love]]" reached #1 on the [[Billboard|''Billboard'']] [[Billboard Hot 100|Hot 100]] in June 1990. The soundtrack also features "[[The King of Wishful Thinking]]" by [[Go West (band)|Go West]] and "Wild Women Do" by [[Natalie Cole]].

These 'arms' were used as the standard of Owain Glyndwr during his rebellion (1400-10). It has since become a symbol of welsh independence and can be seen particularly in North Wales. In 2003 the Millenium Stadium authorities tried to ban it from the ground as racist but backed down after many pointed out it was no more racist than the English three lions. It was flown throughout Wales (including by the National Assembly) during 2004 to mark the 600th anniversary of the first sitting of the Welsh Parliament at Machynlleth.

The [[opera]] featured in the movie is ''[[La Traviata]]'', which also served as inspiration for the plot of the movie. The piano piece which Richard Gere's character plays in the hotel lobby was composed by and performed by Gere.

According to the www.princeofwales.gov.uk 'The Duke of Edinburgh suggested in 1962 that The Prince of Wales should have his own flag to use after his investiture exclusively for use during visits to Wales and in Welsh waters. The Queen gave her approval. The standard, devised by the College of Arms, is based on the Arms of the Principality of Wales, also known as the Arms of Llewelyn ap Gruffydd, the last native Prince of Wales.' If the College of Arms says they are the Arms of Wales then legally they are.

==Facts and Figures==

*In the scene where Philip tries to rape Vivian, Edward was originally supposed to shout "Get out! I never want to see you again!" at Phil. This was changed to just "Get Out!", since the filmakers thought it too harsh for Edward to fire his lawyer and ten-year best friend over a mishap with a woman he had only known for six days.

:According to the ''Book of Public Arms'' (W.H. Fox-Davies, 2nd ecition 1915):

*Possibly due to the controversial subject matter, the movie was heavily edited. Groundbreaking on account of its sympathetic depiction of an occupation thought dishonorable and indecent by most Americans, the film has been described as featuring "[[hooker with a heart of gold|a prostitute with a heart of gold]]".

:''"These arms have had some offficial recognition since the the reign of Queen elizabeth, and by a Royal Warrant, dated 1912, are now borne by the Price of wales on an inescutcheon in the centre of his arms."''

:(An inescutcheon is a small shield in the middle of the big shield)

:[[User:Lozleader|Lozleader]] 08:05, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

== Principality ==

*The necklace that Vivian tries on at one point in the film really was worth $250,000, and there was an armed security guard present on set, standing behind the director, when the scenes with it were being shot, to ensure it wouldn't be stolen.

Despite often being called one, I don't believe Wales is a principality. Dictionaries define one as "a territory ruled by a prince". Wales, however, isn't. "The Prince of Wales" is merely a title. He has nothing to do with the rule of Wales - Wales is ruled by the Queen, by Parliament, or by the Welsh Assembly, depending on how you look at it, but certainly has nothing to do with the Prince of Wales. -- [[User:Varitek|Varitek]]

*Various rewrites of the original script portrayed Vivian as hypersexual and a heavy drug user. These traits, considered by producer Laura Ziskin to be detrimental to the otherwise sympathetic portrayal of her, were removed or incorporated into the character of Vivian's friend, Kit. These "cut scenes" have been found in public view, and some were included on the DVD released on the movie's 15th anniversary. One such scene has Vivian offering Edward, "I could just pop ya good and be on my way", indicating a disinterest in "[[pillow talk]]". In another, she is confronted by drug dealers outside of The Blue Banana, and rescued by Edward.

:Well, Kingdom is defined as "A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign.", and I don't really see Brenda doing much ruling as such. So does that make the UK not a Kingdom? [[User:Morwen|Morwen]] 14:25, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

*Roberts has said that the body on the movie's cover is not her own; her head was pasted on a photograph of her body double. She also claims that the double was used for shots of Vivian's body in the opening scene in which her face is not seen. However, the director's commentary track on the 10th & 15th anniversary DVDs states that these scenes did not use a body double, and that Vivian's face is not shown because the viewer is not yet supposed to know her natural hair color, so that they will be surprised later in the film when she removes her [[wig]].

:: Ah, but she does rule the country. She chooses the Prime Minister to wield power in her name, she has to give Royal Assent to bills, she alone has the power to dissolve Parliament, etc. I know that no royal since Anne has refused assent, and that the monarch always chooses the ruler of the party with a workable majority, and always takes the PM's advice on dissolution - but nonetheless, the powers are hers. The Prince of Wales has no power whatsoever in the rule of Wales (or any other powers unconnected with the Duchy of Cornwall, as far as I know.) [[User:Varitek|Varitek]]

* The escargot restaurant scene was filmed at the Rex, now called [[Cicada (restuarant)|Cicada]] (''Slippery little devils!'')

The Queen cannot be considered to rule in any manner. Like Charles, she is no more than a symbol who rubber stamps parliament law. Not many realise it, but Wales is not actually considered part of the united Kingdom because it is a principality. This is the reason why the royal standard shows scotland, ireland and England twice. This is why the royal crown contains symbols of sctotland, ireland and englnad but not Wales.

*This movie might have been influenced in part by the movie ''[[That Touch of Mink]]'', starring [[Cary Grant]] and [[Doris Day]].

In short, although it means absolutely nothing, the Prince of Wales is the monarch of Wales and Not the Queen.

*[[Meg Ryan]], [[Daryl Hannah]] and [[Molly Ringwald]] turned down the role of Vivian.

::Absolute nonsense. The Queen is the monarch over all of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Wales is as much an integral part of the country as any other part. The reason the Royal standard doesn't show a Wales-related symbol is because Wales was an integral part of England when the unions with Scotland and Ireland took place. The Prince of Wales is not a monarch but a monarch-in-waiting. [[User:Owain|Owain]] 12:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not one country but a Union made up of [[Wales]], [[Northern Ireland]]], [[Scotland]], [[Cornwall]], [[Cumbria]], [[Isle of Man]] and [[England]].

*The more recent film, ''[[The Princess Diaries (film)|The Princess Diaries]]'', a parallel to the ''Pretty Woman'' film, has many of the same supporting cast members and the same lines used in ''Pretty Woman''. [[Garry Marshall]] is the director of both films.

:Er, don't let the Manx here you say that, [[User:Rhydd Meddwl|RhM]]. The [[Isle of Man]] is a [[Crown dependency]] but not part of the [[United Kingdom]]. -- [[User:Picapica|Picapica]] 14:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

::Anyway, what's wrong with thinking of it as a country made up of other countries? I call Wales a country and I call the UK one too. ''Country'' is just one of those words whose definition is quite vague. But I'm really not sure if Cumbria counts as one! [[User:Garik|Garik]] 22:36, 29 April 2006 (BST)

:''The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is not one country...''. Eh? What a load of rubbish. The United Kingdom is a [[State|state]], it is '''not''' a [[Nation state|nation state]], as it comprises several [[nation]]s. The term ''[[Country|country]]'' can be applied to both a state and a nation. So the UK '''is''' a country and Wales is a country as well. [[User:Wobble|Alun]] 06:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

::I agree. It's in the name, isn't it? "Consituent country"? But it bothers me that none of the UK countries are in the [[List of countries|list]]. [[User:VolatileChemical|VolatileChemical]] 16:08, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The Queen rules the UK as a constitutional monarch,the Prime Minister governs it with parliament.

*Roberts and Gere would reunite in [[1999]]'s ''[[Runaway Bride (1999 film)|Runaway Bride]]''.

The Principality of Wales is specifically created by the Queen for her heir. It is a title but carries no governmental roles nowadays although it did in the middle ages. Wales is a Principality just as England is a Kingdom. Both are subsumed within the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

It says on the article that 'many people' object to the word Principality for Wales. Which poll of Welsh people says that? Some Welsh people with nationalist or republican sympathies dont like it many others love it. I saw a poll on BBC Wales Today that said that 77% of Welsh speakers in a poll liked the Prince of Wales. Unfortunately I cant find a link to that anywhere on the internet. This article should not be biased towards any particular political view.

*The movie's plot is based on [[Giuseppe Verdi]]'s opera ''[[La Traviata]]''.

----

There's this concept called [[feudalism]]. Each territorial unit has a lord, who is a vassal of a higher lord in a hierarchical structure. The term "sovereign" only applies to a lord at some level in the system when the territory he controls is... sovereign. The Prince of Wales is in name the non-sovereign feudal lord of the principality, and a vassal of the sovereign of the UK.

== De-annexation ==

*Richard Gere played a [[male prostitute]] in the [[1980]]s film ''[[American Gigolo]]''.

When was Wales de-annexed from England? It got annexed in [[1536]] or whenever, was considered part of [[England]] when the [[Kingdom of Great Britain]] was formed, but at some point the term 'England and Wales' began being used in legislation. Does anyone know when this was? [[User:Morwen|Morwen]] 14:27, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

==Primary cast==

* [[Richard Gere]]: Edward Lewis

* [[Julia Roberts]]: Vivian Ward

* [[Ralph Bellamy]]: James Morse

* [[Jason Alexander]]: Philip Stuckey

* [[Laura San Giacomo]]: Kit De Luca

* [[Hector Elizondo]]: Barney Thompson

* [[Hank Azaria]]: Detective (Hollywood Blvd.)

* [[Alex Hyde-White]]: David Morse

* [[Amy Yasbeck]]: Elizabeth Stuckey

* [[Elinor Donahue]]: Bridget

* Bill Applebaum: Howard

* Billy Gallo: Carlos

:Aha, found it. [[User:Morwen|Morwen]] 15:54, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

==Awards==

'''Won:'''

* [[Golden Globe Award]] [[Golden Globe Award for Best Actress - Motion Picture Musical or Comedy|for Best Actress - Motion Picture Musical or Comedy]] ([[Julia Roberts]])

In 2006 the Government of Wales Act was given Royal Assent and for the first time in British history at least there is now a legal place called Wales that is separate from England. The Act says that there will from now on be a legal entity called 'Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Wales' which puts Wales on equal footing with Scotland and Northern Ireland. Interestingly I dont think there is a similar status for England whose laws are passed as UK laws. {{unsigned|86.132.102.96}}

'''Nominated:'''

:The actual wording is the "Crown in right of the Welsh Assembly Government", which isn't the same thing. [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 17:55, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

* [[BAFTA Award for Best Film]]

* [[Academy Awards|Academy Award]] [[Academy Award for Best Actress|for Best Actress]] ([[Julia Roberts]])

* Golden Globe Awards

** [[Golden Globe Award for Best Motion Picture - Musical or Comedy]]

** [[Golden Globe Award for Best Actor - Motion Picture Drama]] ([[Richard Gere]])

** [[Golden Globe Award for Best Supporting Actor - Motion Picture]] ([[Hector Elizondo]])

* [[Writers Guild of America|Writers Guild of America Award for Best Drama Written Directly for the Screen]] ([[J.F. Lawton]])

I disagree, Wales was annexed into the Kingdom of England under the Act of Union 1536 and remains so to this day; thats why in law reference to England includes Wales. The Government of Wales Act 2006 will not change this, although there will be an entity known as Her Majesty in Right of Wales, Wales will not be on equal footing with Scotland, Northern Ireland and England.

== See also ==

* ''[[Runaway Bride]]''

It is still part of the Royal Kingdom of England but that means nothing as England joined with Scotland in 1603 and then Ireland in 1801 to form the United Kingdom. So Wales, England, Northern Ireland and Scotland are all subsumed within the UK. Does anyone argue England is not a country? No. So why say Wales isnt?

==External links==

{{imdb title|id=0100405|title=Pretty Woman}}

==Cambria==

<!-- Julia Roberts -->

>>The Romans gave Wales the name of Cambria<<

[[Category:1990 films]]

[[Category:American films]]

[[Category:Romantic comedy films]]

[[Category:Films featuring a Best Actress Academy Award nominated performance]]

[[Category:Films directed by Garry Marshall]]

[[Category:Fish out of water films]]

Oh, no, they didn't. This part of the historical introduction needs rewriting.

[[bg:Хубава жена]]

[[ca:Pretty Woman]]

Wales, together with what is today the "West Country" of England, was a part of Britannia Prima (a 4th-century subdivision of the earlier Britannia Superior). ''Cambria'' is a Latinization of ''Cymru'' first used centuries after the Romans had quit Britain.

[[da:Pretty Woman]]

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== Monmouthshire ==

[[es:Mujer bonita]]

[[fr:Pretty Woman]]

I'm not too clear on the details but for a long time Monmouthshire's status as being in England or Wales was somewhat ambiguous - a lot of legislation applying to Wales only would refer to "Wales and Monmouthshire". Does anyone know much about this and want to put in a note? -- [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 11:00, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[[he:אישה יפה]]

: See http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/wales/status.shtml [[User:Gareth Owen|GWO]] 12:38, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[[it:Pretty Woman]]

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General question on Welsh History.

[[ja:プリティ・ウーマン]]

The second Welsh wars were started after Dafydd ap Gruffydd attacked Hawerden Castle in North Wales. From Where did he launch this attack? Anyone know? Denbigh or Caergwrle - have read differing histories.

[[pt:Pretty Woman]]

: All the books I have read say Caergwrle and it woujld make more sense geographically as a base for the raid--[[User:Snowded|Snowded]] 11:00, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[[ru:Красотка (фильм)]]

[[sv:Pretty Woman]]

==Motto==

This page gives "Y ddraig Goch ddyry cychwyn" (aside: why the capital G?); the Welsh ([[:cy:Cymru|w:cy]]) article has "Cymru am byth". Which is it? [[User:Hajor|&ndash;''Hajor'']]

:''Cymru am Byth'' is the national motto, ''Y ddraig goch...'' is the royal motto; for about 6 years in the 1950s the national flag included a badge with the draig goch motto, but it was dropped reputedly because there's an alternative translation which is rather more, um, earthy! [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 16:29, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Changing the one here to ''Cymru am byth'' then. "Wales For Ever", right? [[User:Hajor|&ndash;''Hajor'']] 00:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

:Yes. [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 00:47, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi "Y ddraig Goch.." is incorrect spelling of the motto. Its correct spelling is "Y ddraig coch ddyry cychwyn". Which means The Red Dragon Advances.

''Y ddraig goch'' is correct: ''draig'' is feminine and so triggers the soft mutation of the initial consonant of the following adjective. --[[User:Angr|Angr]]/[[User_talk:Angr|_comhrá]] 13:07, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Y ddraig coch ddyry cychwyn is the official motto of the Welsh Office, now Wales Office. It is therefore the official motto of the UK government in Wales.

:I'm not too bothered about the Wales Office but [[User:Angr|Angr]] is right; the motto is ''Y ddraig goch ddyry cychwyn'' ("The red dragon should go forward"). Actually the ''draig goch'' in question was not a dragon but a tawny-coloured bull. The motto comes from a later 15th century [[cywydd]] by the poet [[Deio ab Ieuan Du]], from [[Cardiganshire]]. It comes near the end of a ''cywydd diolch'' (a cywydd of thanks in response to a gift asked of someone by way a ''cywydd gofyn'', or "beseeching cywydd") to Siôn ap Rhys of [[Aberpergwm]]. This bull seems to have been a formidable breeder. The poet states that it and its partner are "of the breed of dragons to bring forth calves and milk". The "red dragon" (the bull) "should get going" by mounting its partner in a grove (a convention borrowed from the love poetry of the period)! Good poem too (see A. Eleri Davies (ed.), ''Gwaith Deio ab Ieuan Du'' (Cardiff, 1992): you'll find the Welsh text on pages 36-37). I don't know how the motto found its way to the Welsh Office, but I rather imagine it was a lover of Welsh literature with a sense of humour - and mischief! - who might have suggested it. Could anyone enlighten me on that part of the story? [[User:Enaidmawr|Enaidmawr]] 00:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

::The motto predates the Welsh Office: it was added to the badge of Wales by [[order in council]] dated [[March 11]], [[1953]]:

'''London Gazette Issue 39798 published on the 13 March 1953'''

'At the Court at Buckingham Palace, the llth day of March, 1953.<br>

PRESENT,

The QUEEN's Most Excellent Majesty in Council.<br>

HER Majesty was this day graciously pleased, by<br>

and with the advice of Her Privy Council, to order<br>

that for the greater honour and distinction of Wales<br>

the Royal Badge of Wales, namely, the Red Dragon<br>

passant, be augmented as follows: "Within a<br>

circular riband argent fimbriated or bearing the<br>

motto, Y-DDRAIG-GOCH-DDYRY-CYCHWYN, in<br>

letters vert, and ensigned with a representation of<br>

the Crown proper, an escutcheon per fesse argent<br>

and vert and thereon the Red Dragon passant" as<br>

in the painting hereunto annexed is more plainly<br>

depicted.<br>

And that the Most Noble Bernard Marmaduke,<br>

Duke of. Norfolk. K.G.,. G.C.V.O., £arl Marshal<br>

and Hereditary Marshal of England, do forthwith<br>

cause the necessary directions to be given herein<br>

accordingly.'

::It had earlier ([[1906]]) been included in the grant of arms to the City of Cardiff (Letters Patent dated August 26 1906). The arms themselves were an amalgam of national emblems (dragon, leek and ostrich feathers all make an appearance). As the grantee is free to chose any motto they want (as long as it isn't the royal motto), somebody connected with Cardiff corporation in the Edwardian era must have been the insigator.

::[[User:Lozleader|Lozleader]] 07:58, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

==Caerdydd==

Removing a piece of useful information ('Caerdydd') from the page just because it's not English was pretty damned childish. [[User:Varitek|Varitek]] 20:48, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

==Nation or not?==

The page has been edited with the comment 'Wales is not a nation'. But the OED definition of the word 'nation' includes ''A group of people having a single ethnic, tribal, or religious affiliation, but without a separate or politically independent territory.''. Therefore Wales is a nation. Besides, I'd rather talk about 'Six Nations Rugby' than 'Two nations, a combined nation and province, two countries and a principality Rugby'.

:Wales is a nation, a country, and a principality. Th terms are not mutually exclusive. Wales is *not* a state. It is also part of a Kingdom. [[User:mynameismonkey|mynameismonkey]]

:Although, it should become gradually obvious to a reader, it is not stated anywhere that "Wales is a nation" (or "almost universally considered to be one including by the UN and the UK government" or something if anyone objects to that statement). The word, "nation", isn't even in the article. Whereas, [[Scotland]] and [[England]] are both initially described as nations.

:Would anyone object if I change "is one of the four constituent parts of" to "is a nation (and one of four constituent parts) of" or "is a nation"?

:--[[User:Joeblakesley|Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesley]] [[user_talk:joeblakesley|_talk]] [[Special:Contributions/joeblakesley|_contrib]] 23:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

::Go ahead, if someone objects they will let you know [[PDQ]]. [[User:Wobble|Alun]] 07:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

:::Did it myself. Take care. [[User:Wobble|Alun]] 06:38, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Wales is a nation under occupation. <small>—The preceding [[Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages|unsigned]] comment was added by [[User:195.93.21.134|195.93.21.134]] ([[User talk:195.93.21.134|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/195.93.21.134|contribs]]) {{{2|}}}.</small>

Occupied by who the elected Welsh Assembly or the elected UK government? Both are Labour for whom the majority of Welsh people voted. Thats the problem with democracy, people dont all vote for who the nationalists want them too!

== "Stranger or slave" ==

Can anyone point me to an authoritative source that shows that the Germanic root from which the name of Wales derives can mean "slave"? [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] 15:39, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

:Wealas, from Saxon wealh - servant, slave: http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/definition/english/we/wealas.html [[User:Mynameismonkey|Mynameismonkey]]

My understanding is that the Germanic term may ultimately come from the name of a Celtic tribe living under Roman rule, possibly the "Volcae" in what is now southern Germany or Bohemia. This led to the use of the tribe's name to mean "Romanised Celts" in general, and it is this sense which is supposed to be behind the use of the term elsewhere e.g. the "Welsh" were Romanised Celts to the Germanic Anglo-Saxon invaders, the French-speaking population of Belgium known as "Walloons" would also ultimately be descended from Romanised Celts, as would the Wallachians of modern Romania. I think Germanic tribes tended to use different terms to describe other non-Celtic "strangers". The Anglo-Saxon reference above might actually be a secondary meaning resulting from Anglo-Saxon dominance over their "Welsh" neighbours.

Any academic references to back this up would of course be helpful.

Wealas is a Saxon word meaning foreingers, this has then developed into Wales. In 990, while it is true that the Saxons had pushed the Welsh back, Wales was still a distinctly different country that Saxon kings had no authority over. As for the Bible entry in Genesis I fail to see how an ancient book translated from Hebrew, to Latin and then into Old English is a difintive source of information.--[[User:Rhydd Meddwl|Rhydd Meddwl]] 18:49, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

== "Cymru fo am byth" ==

...means "Wales for ever", doesn't it? Some anon has just changed the translation to "Wales never yields". Can someone with more Welsh than I have comment? [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] 16:38, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

:The form "Cymru fo am byth" is only used as part of the lyrics of ''[[Men of Harlech]]'' as far as I can tell [http://www.google.com/search?num=20&hl=cy&ie=UTF-8&safe=active&q=%22cymru+fo+am+byth%22&btnG=Chwiliwch (Google search).] The more popular version is "Cymru am byth", but this is still far from being a national motto. It is, however, probably the closest thing we have to one. And it means "Wales for ever", yes. [[User:Gareth Wyn|Gareth]] 21:34, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Cities ==

An anon has added Bangor and St David's to the list of subdivisions of Wales under "cities". While it's true that they are cities, they're administered by county councils and aren't unitary authorities in the same way that Cardiff or Swansea are. I'm not sure how properly to resolve the ambiguity here; perhaps the whole section needs rewriting. [[User:Marnanel|Marnanel]] 18:55, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

== Home ==

My great-grandfather immigrated to America around the turn of the century; so Cymru is still home to me, but I've never seen my homeland. I've tried to find research sites, but all I've gotten is sites for the damned tourists. Can anyone give me a hint as to good places to look for family in Cymru and information on it as a whole? I'd be much obliged.

== incorrect ==

The nation has had no real independence since 1282, when it was taken by the English King.

The above statement is incorrect in the sense that Wales has just as much independence as any other nation in great britain.All power is central at westminster,with representatives from both England,Scotland,Northern Ireland and Wales.

:Which doesn't really sound like real independence to me.

both statments are incorrect

The welsh people had a short spell of independence during the 1400's thanks to the King of free Wales, Owain Glyndwr currently Wales is going through the devolution process which in lamens terms means that we can make our own decisions but the english is still in overall control.

:The UK parliament is in control, which consists of MPs representing England and Wales (and the rest!). There are more English MPs because it is a bigger country, but most of the people in power in the cabinet actually seem to be scottish! [[User:Jameskeates|Jameskeates]] 11:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wales is unable to become an independent country because we no longer have anything worth trading.

The above is not true, Cymru has plenty of commodities worth trading, these include farming products, timber, fishing and mining, Cymru also has a tremendous amount of unexplored potential for tourism. So if Cymru became independent once more then we would be able to cope fine and our economy would actually improve than it is now.--[[User:Rhydd Meddwl|Rhydd Meddwl]] 19:36, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Can people stop giving their opinions as facts. It is fine to say 'I think Wales should be independent' but you cannot say 'Wales should be independent' as that implies you somehow know things that noone else does.

== "Character of the Welshman"? ==

a native pure-blood welshman is a coch draig with unchallanged intelligance and language skills

Would these language skills reach to the correct spelling of "Intelligence" perhaps?

:And indeed better punctuation and better Welsh (draig goch)... [[User:Garik|garik]] 14:30, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's ddraig goch ;)

:No it's not! Well, it is if there's a definite article (so y ddraig goch), but the radical form (meaning '(a) red dragon') is ''draig goch'', as in 'Draig goch yw pob Cymro y mae ei waed yn bur':) [[User:Garik|garik]] 11:19, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

== Age breakdown ==

Why are the age ranges listed so skewed?

Its no surprise, and not really informative, that the age ranges spanning 15 years have more people in that range than the ranges that span only 2 years. I'm not quite sure what this is supposed to show. Whatever it is intended for, I'm sure it could be done better by having a more balanced distribution of ranges, perhaps targetting a 10 year span for each group.

[[User:Tritium6|Tritium6]] 20:40, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

:Those are the age ranges used by the 2001 Census site. -- [[User:Arwel Parry|Arwel]] 21:05, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One rabbit for you to cahse at the battle of Boworth field Henry tudor a welshman had abanner for hos army it was the red dragon ( cadwaladr banner) which is now that of wales. why is this not in your history . This factb is recorded in many history books

Yes the history should make it clearer that the Welsh Twdur/Tudor family took over the English throne by force of arms and from that date on the monarchy was English and Welsh in nature as shown by the use of the Welsh Dragon on the Royal Coat of Arms. It was the Scottish Stuarts who removed the Welsh Dragon and replaced it with a Scottish unicorn. Sometimes history reads like it was all done to Wales when in reality Welsh people, in proportion to their small population size, were just as important in the history of the UK as the other three nations.

== Images of Wales ==

I've changed the image gallery to make use of Wikipedia's 'gallery' template, which seems to be less intrusive for the overall feel of the page. I've also added some photos of important Welsh institutions. If you don't like the changes, feel free to revert back to the old style, I'm not entirely convinced of the change myself! [[User:Twrist|Twrist]] 23:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

== Province?? ==

Wales is a country and nation under english occupation, the same being with scotland and n ireland.

I can rest assure everyone here that Wales is not a province. Wales is a country, the first country to unite with England as a matter of fact to form the United Kingdom. Maybe before 1955 Wales was a province of England, but not anymore. The words "Provincial Capital" have been removed.

[[User:Draig goch20|Draig goch20]] 13:01, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

<br><br>

Wales is not a country. It is considered by many to be one but factually is not. It is a sovereign state and part of a country.[[User:Palx|<font color="#002266">'''Pal'''<font color="#FF8800">'''''X''''']] 14:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

<br>

: Actually, that's not true. Wales is not a country (the only countries in the British Isles are the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland), and hasn't been a country for over 700 years, for that matter. It's a ''nation'', and legally a principality, but it isn't a country.

: I think we should revert your removal.

: [[User:Jdforrester|James F.]] [[User_talk:Jdforrester|(talk)]] 13:43, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

::You're right, but 'capital' by itself is sufficiently NPoV. After all we can have 'capitals' of counties, &c. Of course this doesn't get into the debate as to whether we need regional capitals or not, and why it should be Cardiff, but that's another debate! :) [[User:Owain|Owain]] 15:23, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thats like saying that Scotland isn't a country? or England for that matter? and those countries do consider themselves "Countries". What makes it different for Wales, does it make it easier for others to walk all over us?

[[User:Draig goch20|Draig goch20]] 18:38, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

::Well they aren't are they? The UK is the country, which consists of multiple parts. Why do people get all worked up about it anyway? Like you said it makes no real difference, it's all about perception. I'm sure some people in Catalonia or the Basque region consider those places to be separate ''de facto'' countries, but they are not ''de jure''. [[User:Owain|Owain]] 18:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:::The situation is different, though, because, so far as I am aware, there is no particular official term to refer to the constituent parts of the UK. [[Catalonia]] is an autonomous community (and used to be, I think, a region). But there is no proper term for what England is, or what Scotland is. I'd certainly like to see some evidence that "nation" is used in any more official sense than "country." Certainly the adjective "national" is used to refer to things pertaining to the whole UK, so the UK, in addition to being a state, would appear to be a nation ''and'' a country, as well. The basic fact is, there is no good term for describing any of these places. [[User:John Kenney|john]] [[User_talk:John Kenney|k]] 18:53, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I went into google and it actually states something different. "the territory occupied by a '''nation'''; "he returned to the land of his birth"; "he visited several European countries" type in "define: Country". I am not arguing, I am clearing things up, we have alway's considered ourselves a "Country" and so do Welsh politicians. The UK is a Union of Countries, one a former province (Wales) and two other countries, Scotland and England.

[[User:Draig goch20|Draig goch20]] 18:53, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

::Ah yes, the old Google = truth test. You may well 'consider' Wales to be a country, and that is your prerogative, but the UK is not a union of countries, it is one country. Wales has never really existed as a single unified entity, even up to the Laws in Wales Act 1543, there was 'the principality' and the Marches. Prior to the Norman invasion of Britain it was a number of separate kingdoms, as was England. The concept of Wales existing as a separate entity that joined a 'Union of countries' a la the EU is pure fiction. [[User:Owain|Owain]] 19:05, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wales is not a country. It's a common misconception, the same as believing England &c. are countries. It's simply not true. Wales is a region within the country known as the UK. As evidence, I offer the UN's list of member states:

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html

Both of these sources include the UK as a country and neither of these sources include Wales as a country.

Now unless those claiming that Wales is a country can offer some evidence beyond "Google says" and "everybody knows", this article should be fixed so that it does not refer to Wales as a country.

Jim 06:38, 18 Sep 2005 (UTC)

:Hi, Jim. Nobody disagrees with you that Wales, like the other parts of the UK, isn't a sovereign state. The problem is simply with the semantics of the word "country." We're not trying to imply that Wales is an independent country; but many people use the word "country" in another sense which does not require full legal independence. [[User: Doops|Doops]] | [[User_talk:Doops | talk]] 06:06, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Precisely. This is a semantic issue and 'country' is just a rather vague term. Compare the word 'Britain'. It has no official status. Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, but not Great Britain; whether or not it's part of 'Britain' depends what you mean by the word - and there's no right or wrong about it. In the same way, Wales is a nation and a principality, but not a sovereign nation (or state). There's no right or wrong about calling it a country, however, because the word 'country' is not defined precisely enough. If England, Scotland, (or indeed the Basque Country) are countries, then so is Wales. If they're not, then Wales isn't either. But it's not a matter of right or wrong. Gareth 19:12 26 April 2006

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WALES IS A COUNRTY<br />

ENGLAND IS A COUNTRY<br />

SCOTLAND IS A COUNTRY<br />

NORTHERN IRELAND IS THE ONLY PROVINCE IN THE UK<br />

The great Cymraeg rebellion overthrough the english oppressors and reclaimed our title as a country! people seem to be missing the fact that when asked in the UK what your ethnic origin is you can selet welsh, scottish, english and irish. Why call the United Kingdom united if its all one country? shouldn't it just be "kingdom"? North and south Wales are provinces of Wales, the welsh language is very different in the north of wales.

I agree Cymru is not a currently an indepedent country but then neither is Scotland or England, they are all ruled from a Westminister government that has elected represantatives from all of the countries of the UK. The UK is not a country but a Union of Countries. The Commonwealth Games are happening now and unless I am greatly, greatly mistaken Scotland, England and Wales are all taking part as diferent countries.--[[User:Rhydd Meddwl|Rhydd Meddwl]] 19:55, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a nerve been touched here, I am shocked that these people aren't calling England a country. The three nations of the United Kingdom, as the Prime Minsters site suggests are "Three countries in one". There would be no need for devolution if Wales and Scotland were not countries, just not sovereign countries. I will search for where I found this.

[[User:Draig goch20|Draig goch20]] 19:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

:There seem to be a lot of poorly informed people out there. Please learn the difference between a [[State]], a [[Country]] and a [[Nation]] before commenting on them. If you are really on the ball you might like to have a go at [[Ethnic group]] as well. In summary:<br>

*'''State''': ''A state is a set of institutions that possess the authority to make the rules that govern a society, having internal and external sovereignty over a definite territory. Following Max Weber's influential definition, a state has a 'monopoly on legitimate violence'. Hence the state includes such institutions as the armed forces, civil service or state bureaucracy, courts, and police.''

*'''Nation''': ''One of the most influential doctrines in history is that all humans are divided into groups called nations. It is an ethical and philosophical doctrine in itself, and is the starting point for the ideology of nationalism. The nationals are the members of the "nation" and are distinguished by a common identity, and almost always by a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent.''

*'''Country''': ''In political geography and international politics a country is a geographical territory. It is used casually in the sense of both the concept of nation (a cultural entity; see below) and state (a political entity). Some definitions tend to place it as meaning only state, though general use is wider than this.''<br>

:So do we get it? A state is a legal entity recognised as such internationally, a nation is a group of people who share a common identity and a country is a geographical region, either that of a state or that of a nation. So Wales is a nation and is also a country, it is not a State, but if it ever got independence it would be a [[nation-state]], something the United Kingdom is not.

[[User:Wobble|Alun]] 05:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Since the Royal Assent of the Government of Wales Act 2006 Wales now has a legal personality seperate to that of the UK e.g. Her Majesty in Right of Wales. This has some repercussions on this debate. From now on there will be truely Welsh laws signed by the Queen specifically as head of state of Wales rather than the UK. The advice to sign them will be given by Welsh Ministers not UK ministers although the UK government will be able to quosh those laws until a referendum of the Welsh people says otherwise. But from now on Wales is a part of the UK because it chooses to, it has the legal identity now to leave if a referendum said so. {{unsigned|86.132.102.96}}

:This makes no difference. In the unlikely event of an independence referendum, a 'yes' result would result in a separate legal entity in any case. [[User:Owain|Owain]] <small>([[User_talk:Owain|talk]])</small> 18:36, 9 September 2006 (UTC)